In 40+ years of life, I have discovered two very important facts: 1. A few assholes ruining it for everybody is the rule for every scale of life. 2. Just doing your job will bring your society down every time. Question everything.
I dunno. Consider the problem faced by Listener and the Trisolarans. Without a new colony to settle, not just his civilization but his species as a whole is GOING to die. Those who control the balance of power in his civilization are so convinced of this, they RUIN their entire homeworld and civilization to build an exodus fleet and two sophons. But Listener is willing to risk the survival of his entire species purely in the name of saving his job for at least a few more years? All civilizations have this problem where the interests of the individual and the interests of the group are frequently opposed. There's no fixing it. Ever.
@@Grizabeebles I don't doubt it and did not oppose this. However, there are definitely ways of not being an asshole and still protecting yourself or benefiting from a situation, usually without dooming your whole species. An asshole is, at least to my experience, someone who will take the absolute easy path and cause great harm by doing so. As for how solvable something like this is... No such problem can ever be fully solved while we remain human beings as we are today, as I understand it. But, at least, we can try not to be. This is a fascinating subject to discuss though, how individuals link to society types and the system design behind it.
the "golden rule" would cover rules of interaction. but the dark forest is basically "the prisoner's dilemma" if you had one and only one round to play. as batfleck delivered so hideously, "if there's even a one percent chance that he (an omnipotent, unstoppable supes) would turn against us, we have to take it as an absolute certainty!!!"
Don't be the asshole is a good motto on most levels of civilization, personal to probably galactic, but you have to pair it with "except to assholes" or you get walked over.
Most of the criticisms I see about the first and third books of the Remembrance of Earth's Past series are purely biases for political reasons and quite childish in my opinion. What I like about his work is not just the hard sci-fi aspects, but the social criticisms that go against the mainstream we see in the western media.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy talks all about the galactic beauacracy, Jupiter rising, another example. Darkstar where minions of earth are sent out by the beauacracy and the earliest example I can think of Is Practical Jokers on the radio program Dimension X crews of two races acting dark-foresty in a cold war style.
There's a Chinese production that TenCent did which is a very faithful adaptation of the book, save for the obligatory sugarcoating of the Cultural Revolution. I'm looking forward to comparing that one to the upcoming Netflix adaptation.
those are some good maxims. but many years ago i discovered a better ultimate guiding principal; maximize the sum future freedom of action for all intelligent agents
It seems a good principle, but I'm not convinced it doesn't allow a great deal of misery and injustice. For example, does wealth redistribution diminish freedom if it means limiting the freedom of accumulating and capturing wealth, but to empower more people into a freer life? The calculus is not always simple and is prone to subjective, self serving determinations. And it completely relies on our ability to evaluate our impact on the future, direct and indirect. So it's hard to apply effectively since we're pretty bad at understanding the impact of our actions.
I do not like the Dark Forest idea, for 2 reasons. 1. I cannot see it work. Ok, be silent, do not make noices, do not get seen. Aight. then someone gets seen, and it always leads to conflicts... that all other stalking hunters in said forests should notice. So after the first shot is fired, hell should break loose, so to say. 2. It falls apart as soon as two sides decides to work together. Because now they are two, and everyone else is separated sides of One. So two will be stronger than other hunters. This Safety will attract others to reveal themselves to said cooperative parties, and the cooperation grows. Dark Forest cant happen. Or so goes my reasonong why it cant, at least. From Sweden with Love - Kami
@@karlez7664 if so, then its more a case of 'which side (or sides-plural) of the war / wars, are you going to get drafted into ?' and other issues which follow from that.
It only takes one bad actor to make an otherwise idyllic setting lethal. Maybe the answer to the fermi paradox isn’t the Dark Forrest scenario, but it could still be a Crystal Lake scenario.
These do pair with the maxims listed: 1. "Don't be the asshole" is essentially the negative version of the golden rule, and 2. To question authorities implies a transcendant ideal against which temporal authorities are judged. To love God with all your soul and strength is to necessarily love other authorities if and only if they stand in right relation to Him.
@mastpg roll your eyes at people who are so ignorant and prejudice that they mock and ridicule those who don't share their same mind set. 🙄 Can you hear rolling my eyes out loud? 🤔
The flaw in this is that if you question everything you become the asshole, by weight of pier driven opinion. That is the experience of my life, maybe for generations younger than X it is a possibility. But it is not my lived experience.
Three Body Problem is ungood SF. It is Spin level of bad, it is Years of Rice and Salt level of bad. It is Ben Bova bad. When I was reading his stuff I thought it was Space Opera parody. Turns out it was not. 🤦♀ Go read The Forever War for a good take on the Dark Forest. Cheers
In 40+ years of life, I have discovered two very important facts:
1. A few assholes ruining it for everybody is the rule for every scale of life.
2. Just doing your job will bring your society down every time.
Question everything.
I dunno. Consider the problem faced by Listener and the Trisolarans. Without a new colony to settle, not just his civilization but his species as a whole is GOING to die. Those who control the balance of power in his civilization are so convinced of this, they RUIN their entire homeworld and civilization to build an exodus fleet and two sophons.
But Listener is willing to risk the survival of his entire species purely in the name of saving his job for at least a few more years?
All civilizations have this problem where the interests of the individual and the interests of the group are frequently opposed. There's no fixing it. Ever.
@@Grizabeebles I don't doubt it and did not oppose this. However, there are definitely ways of not being an asshole and still protecting yourself or benefiting from a situation, usually without dooming your whole species.
An asshole is, at least to my experience, someone who will take the absolute easy path and cause great harm by doing so.
As for how solvable something like this is... No such problem can ever be fully solved while we remain human beings as we are today, as I understand it. But, at least, we can try not to be.
This is a fascinating subject to discuss though, how individuals link to society types and the system design behind it.
"Those poor bureaucrats"- Shadowthrone
Society is on the brink of collapse from a few assholes who believe they know better and hide behind the sentence they are just doing their job
the "golden rule" would cover rules of interaction. but the dark forest is basically "the prisoner's dilemma" if you had one and only one round to play. as batfleck delivered so hideously, "if there's even a one percent chance that he (an omnipotent, unstoppable supes) would turn against us, we have to take it as an absolute certainty!!!"
'Don't be the asshole'- words to live by...
Don't be the asshole is a good motto on most levels of civilization, personal to probably galactic, but you have to pair it with "except to assholes" or you get walked over.
The problem is that you will never be sure of who the assholes are until you receive a star destroying attack/cleansing
It should be: "except when necessary "
Most of the criticisms I see about the first and third books of the Remembrance of Earth's Past series are purely biases for political reasons and quite childish in my opinion.
What I like about his work is not just the hard sci-fi aspects, but the social criticisms that go against the mainstream we see in the western media.
Great videos. I recently discovered the channel and just keep coming for more
This trilogy has some mind blowing concepts but its a pain to read and tries so hard to be profound that ends up being a parody of an indi scifi film.
The universe is a pve game with griefers.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy talks all about the galactic beauacracy, Jupiter rising, another example. Darkstar where minions of earth are sent out by the beauacracy and the earliest example I can think of Is Practical Jokers on the radio program Dimension X crews of two races acting dark-foresty in a cold war style.
The middle of the bell curve NEVER matters.
Only the outliers matter.
Mediocrity and lukewarmness is inconsequential.
I searched the book and it seems there's a TV show made. Thanks
There's a Chinese production that TenCent did which is a very faithful adaptation of the book, save for the obligatory sugarcoating of the Cultural Revolution. I'm looking forward to comparing that one to the upcoming Netflix adaptation.
@@feralhistorian I am currently on episode one and cant wait for the Netflix adaptation next year!
@@MalaysianChopsticks The Netflix adaptation will be a bad joke in several aespects.
@@feralhistorian please! i so want to see that! I am actually would love to see what both did right and wrong.
those are some good maxims. but many years ago i discovered a better ultimate guiding principal; maximize the sum future freedom of action for all intelligent agents
It seems a good principle, but I'm not convinced it doesn't allow a great deal of misery and injustice.
For example, does wealth redistribution diminish freedom if it means limiting the freedom of accumulating and capturing wealth, but to empower more people into a freer life? The calculus is not always simple and is prone to subjective, self serving determinations.
And it completely relies on our ability to evaluate our impact on the future, direct and indirect. So it's hard to apply effectively since we're pretty bad at understanding the impact of our actions.
You mean liberty, not freedom. Freedom to, not freedom from.
Be Excellent To Each Other And Party On Dudes
I do not like the Dark Forest idea, for 2 reasons.
1. I cannot see it work. Ok, be silent, do not make noices, do not get seen. Aight. then someone gets seen, and it always leads to conflicts... that all other stalking hunters in said forests should notice. So after the first shot is fired, hell should break loose, so to say.
2. It falls apart as soon as two sides decides to work together. Because now they are two, and everyone else is separated sides of One. So two will be stronger than other hunters. This Safety will attract others to reveal themselves to said cooperative parties, and the cooperation grows.
Dark Forest cant happen.
Or so goes my reasonong why it cant, at least.
From Sweden with Love
- Kami
I fully agree with your arguments, however there can be an era of constant warefare between civilisations and groups of them like it is here on earth
@@karlez7664 if so, then its more a case of 'which side (or sides-plural) of the war / wars, are you going to get drafted into ?' and other issues which follow from that.
It only takes one bad actor to make an otherwise idyllic setting lethal. Maybe the answer to the fermi paradox isn’t the Dark Forrest scenario, but it could still be a Crystal Lake scenario.
Dont be the @sshole is both the best and hardest to practice advice I was ever given. The struggle is real.
Yes two basic maxim's; 1. love your neighbor as yourself, 2. love your God with all your soul and strength.
These do pair with the maxims listed: 1. "Don't be the asshole" is essentially the negative version of the golden rule, and 2. To question authorities implies a transcendant ideal against which temporal authorities are judged. To love God with all your soul and strength is to necessarily love other authorities if and only if they stand in right relation to Him.
@@thplonk I was giving his maxims a spiritual interpretation.
@@thplonk wot? u not read Judges 21? No love or morality there.
3 Roll your eyes at people who need to externalize their own judgement, responsibility and agency to a sky wizard.
@mastpg roll your eyes at people who are so ignorant and prejudice that they mock and ridicule those who don't share their same mind set. 🙄 Can you hear rolling my eyes out loud? 🤔
The flaw in this is that if you question everything you become the asshole, by weight of pier driven opinion. That is the experience of my life, maybe for generations younger than X it is a possibility. But it is not my lived experience.
Skulldrudgery 😂!
Three Body Problem is ungood SF. It is Spin level of bad, it is Years of Rice and Salt level of bad. It is Ben Bova bad. When I was reading his stuff I thought it was Space Opera parody. Turns out it was not. 🤦♀
Go read The Forever War for a good take on the Dark Forest.
Cheers
Doubleplus ungood
It,s not the Ukraine it’s Ukraine Timothy Snyder explains why very well
Anyone else get a serious 'Libertarian' vibe from this guy?
You mean American? Yes, and it's great.
@@tsoliot5913 No, not American. I mean Libertarian.
I do not like your take on her position at Red Coast.
I disliked this series for many reasons. It’s not peak sci-fi, it’s not even good sci-fi imho.
I respectfully disagree with you, but I’ll respect your opinion regardless