DAMN I did not expect so many comments! I'll try to respond to as many as I can gamers, but remember to keep it civil and respectful. I actually moderate my comments which I know is an uncommon practice on UA-cam lol. I'm definitely enjoying the conversations and points alot of you bring up! Feel free to suggest topics for future videos, I like doing discussions like this.
i love how unique the treasure hunting maps are in sa2, especially the little gimmicks like the water levels or turtle or weird gravity. i never played sa1 so i can't compare but i sorta wish they'd kept treasure hunts in new sonic games, it couldve evolved into something so cool by now.
Last night, I A-ranked Mad Space Hard Mode while collecting every small animal and Chao box. And no, I didn't die to reset the timer. My only problem with the SA2 stages is that if you happen to find an emerald that isn't the one being tracked, it doesn't reset the emerald point timer. Like, if you find the second emerald after 30 seconds, you'll get a Perfect bonus, but if you find the first one 30 more seconds after that, you'll only get an Awesome because it took you a minute to find the emerald you were _supposed_ to be looking for.
Always really liked 2's Treasure Hunting. 1's is good, but just feels more... bleak than 2. The linear radar can be a bit of a pain at first, but the satisfaction of finding an emerald shard randomly is unmatched. SA2's hunting stages are great, I'm tired of people treating the running stages as the ONLY good thing about the game.
I do think that you're mostly right, but the thing that aggravates me is the radar system in SA2. It's the only thing that I wish stayed the same between games because it's frustrating to try and find one emerald piece while passing by another. It's especially frustrating when the emerald piece locations are randomized in places where it's easy to get lost.
I think your point on how people can enjoy casual experiences more based on preference is really the reason so many people hate SA2's treasure hunting. The thing with Sonic games is that, even on your first playthrough, even if you're bad at the game, you can find enjoyment in all of the cool, new experiences in individual levels. But since SA2 makes the radar work one emerald at a time, and the maps are so elaborate, it makes it hard for most people to have a good first impression since you're going to meander around on the first playthrough like SA1- only with three times more difficulty due to the lack of a radar. Growing through repeated playthroughs and the replayability is great, but it turns away newcomers while mostly benefiting experienced players. Especially if you're going through the story and, instead of a fun time seeing character interactions and the plot unfolding through quick yet enjoyable stages, you spend the next 20 minutes in meteor herd or mad space while feeling put down because you got a low ranking on a stage that feels so confusing that you don't want to ever play it again. That feeling also makes you NOT want to replay treasure hunting levels, so you're mostly left bitter or with a distaste for them. Good design-wise, good for experienced players, good ideas. But the execution makes it bad for someone trying out the game for the first time after going through stuff like City Escape and bad for someone who enjoys the game but doesn't have the time or energy to repeatedly play the levels to learn them, even on a second or third story-playthrough.
@@beangus.4342 The issue with that mentality is that, you don't even need the radar. Most of the emeralds are just visibly floating around. Just use your eyes and you won't be meandering around. Even on your first run.
SA2 treasure hunting stages have always been my favorite. I think the radar works perfectly for those levels. The key is just to do efficient sweeping, which all the levels are designed to do.
@@EpicDuskk Oh, don't worry. I did watch it. You had interesting points. I just find it annoying when people also use these phrases. I agree and both disagree with your point of playing TH stages multiple times. It's cool that when you get better then it's fun but frankly that's exactly the problem. You need to replay them a lot to start having fun If the players don't enjoy it for the first time they won't even want to repeat them again. They definitely suffer the most from having a massively nerfed rader too and some stages being massively open. Rogue's 5 minutes time limit was also pretty evil for a normal stage. You either luck out and get them in time or abuse death to manipulate the emerald location and recover back some time.
@lafbkhope5391 I agree with that. Its a matter of preference. I personally enjoy a game more when Im not just winning on the first run. But there isnt anything wrong with wanting that either. But I think anyone giving the game another go should maybe try coming at it with a different perspective.
I'd certain the reason why Adventure 2's radar only tracks the one Emerald piece at a time is because of the hint computers. They give you hints for one Emerald piece, so having all of the Emerald pieces tracked at once will confuse the player with the hints given.
I do think it’s interesting how SA2’s treasure hunting stages represent the tug of war the Sonic series has (from a gameplay perspective) always had when trying to appeal to both the casual players who don’t care for memorizing levels, and the hardcore players who replay and memorize the levels. The players who like these are people who really get a lot out of memorizing this game and getting rewarded with better performance and time. And the casuals and occasional replayers are left frustrated from a slightly more tedious experience with the radar and gimmicks the levels are programmed with.
Nah, they're just hard and boring. I know what your trying to say: knuckles / rouge levels are just hard, you need to get used to them, e.t.c. But 1. I don't want to get used to them, I just want to have a fun time and enjoy the game! 2. Other levels are FAR easier. Its like playing Mario and then switching to dark souls.
I mean it's easy to find the emeralds, I don't have an issue with how you play the treasure hunting levels at all; they're simply not fun. That's the real issue.
It took me a while to get there. Like my first run as a kid I absolutely hated the 1 emerald tracking thing. But as I learn more and improved I started to appreciate it. I feel more rewarded when I get a good score in SA2.
I completely agree with this video i always preferred SA1 treasure hunting stages over SA2 when i was a kid but as i got older i started to appreciate the changes between the games
This has always been true. The treasure hunting in sa2 has always been more fun. Once you've gotten the hang of sa2s hunting, its so damn fun. Also Rouges costume
I've always been more of an SA2 treasure fan. SA1 has the better radar, SA2 has the better movement & moveset, more creative & original stages, more engaging level design, and the better hint system since Tikal just tells you where the emeralds are.
I probably will because I do like the mech stages. I think my next "yap video" will be something in favor for SA1 though so I dont come off as too unbiased
The problem is if you had a bad experience with these stages from jump, you're not going to want to put in the time to get better at them. I like Sonic Heroes and Shadow, because I've played them a lot, but I understand that not everyone will because if you didn't have a fun first playthrough you're not likely to keep replaying the game.
Its interesting you mention this because I think this is 100% a modern game mindset. Older games were often designed to be almost impossible, because the mindset was "we want players to play a game multiple times". Over the years game development has evolved, and now most games want everyone to be able to win regardless of their skill level. So that makes the older games look way worse by comparison. Thats just something I have to accept im in the minority on though. I'm the type of person who wants a game I cant beat on the first go, I want a reason to keep replaying it. Most people like you said aren't going to keep going if they're not having fun, and obviously game devs are going to want to cater to the larger audience.
@EpicDuskk It's a matter of conveyance. It's not just a matter of difficulty, but why people are struggling at a part of a game. Super Mario Bros. on NES is harder than most modern games, yet I've still seen people today enjoy it and beat it because it's simple and when people die they understand it's their mistake. For the treasure hunting levels, the radar not giving them all the emerald pieces, the hint system requiring you to already be familiar with the level design, these feel like design elements working against you on your first playthrough. People will say, 'It's not my fault the game is confusing me like this.' The way you're supposed to play the treasure hunting levels is not something readily apparent. Adventure 1 eased you into it by giving you Tikal and the better radar. When you had to do the challenges without Tikal, you felt like you've improved to comfortably be able to do so. I will say that the hints in Adventure 2 are useless to most people, and the game actually disincentivises you from using the hints because they reduce your score. I actually have only started using the hints again recently. I've gone without them for years. I plan to play the levels to the point of memorising all the hints, because I wasn't aware there was a way to essentially guarantee your results. But that would be incredibly tedious for most people. Nonetheless, I agree that it's better if something becomes better over time. That's why I like a lot of Sonic games which people hate, because they improve with experience, but that is a game design mentality people who are more casual or less interested won't have.
@spaghettiking7312 But isnt that the whole point? You're not supposed to be able to have it all figured out and get A ranks on your first attempt. The point of the hints is to give you a clue to look for, not the whole solution. But you're rewarded for playing multiple times and becoming more familiar with the levels. The entire design is for you to replay the levels multiple times. You compared it to Mario Bros which is a similar philosophy of replayability, but thats an entire game you're comparing to individual levels. You can see yourself improve in Mario Bros because each time you play, you get a little further before you die. You're seeing new levels and content, so thats your reward for getting better. Even on a casual first run you're getting the 3 emeralds which is basically reaching the end and completing the level, so there needs to be a different incentive, which is getting the better scores. I will agree I think lowering the score for using computers is overkill though.
@@EpicDuskk It's cool to replay it to improve your skill and get an A rank, but it's frustating the fact that you need to improve your skills to simply clear the level in less than 30 minutes to continue with the history. I liked replaying them to get the other missions emblems, but it's still annoying for me to play them in history mode And for the Mech Stages, i really enjoy them!
i've always heard people complaining about SA2's radar a lot, and I've never understood the complaints, most of the stages are set up in a way that they're very easy to navigate and you can easily and quickly find the emerald shards one by one by visiting the main areas of a level looking for a signal, and because of this, these stages are by far the easiest to A rank once you actually understand where they work, and they're also the most fun for me to play because of encouraging exploration of the level, something most of SA2's levels lost from the transition from the first game's open level design it's just that rare instance where an emerald piece is out of the way, where it doesn't get picked up even after checking all of the key areas in a level, where it becomes mildly frustrating, especially if you're choosing to not use the hints like I do
4:28 Mad space is one of the worst experiences i had with a video game, i remember vividly trying to get on a train, to catch the last shard in Mad Space FOR 20 MINUTES, and i just couldn't get it beacause of the gravity mechanic bullshit, flipping me to the other side, an even if some day i can get every shard in the stage in 3 minutes, i'l still hate it, because this shity moment will forever haunt me.
@@open_420 Nah, the gravity mechanics are terrible, the gravity randomly flips you to other side for no fucking reason, witch makes you los tge train so you have to try again, a there was a time where i landed on the train and the glitched me out of it for no reason
ive always loved sa2's treasure hunting stages, id replay them way more than sa1's, sa1's were sort of annoying to get good at while sa2's are 2ay more skill based.
My favourite treasure hunt in any Sonic game is in Unleashed. Granted I can never get a new set of medals to collect because I memorised them all and they never change, but nothing beats the experience of learning to use the combo moves to platform, gain height or air time to nab those sun and moon medals
even when i find them all quickly the pain is just over faster, its not better, none of this shit should ever be within a million miles of a sonic ‘gotta go fucking fast’ game. good rage bait tho if a bit predictable
I love the sa2 stages i ONLY wish it had the SA1 radar. Yes i know you can learn it and do good routing, but i just think the full rader is funner. Everything else (layouts, hint system, etc.) are all a big step up and make them better.
I do think the treasure-hunting stages are fun, but what turned me off about them is that in the latter half of Knuckles' and Rouge's SA2 stages, I was always afraid of being jump-scared by the hidden ghosts (Pumpkin Hill, Aquatic Mine, Death Chamber, Egg Quarters). That's what made me not like it as much because it always restricted me from wanting to explore EVERYWHERE.
something can be hard but fun, look at the dark souls franchise, if the issue with fun is skill level but the game mode isn't meant to be hard, thats a failure of the dev not teaching the player properly.
@@EpicDuskk thats not really true by that era of gaming, if anything that was more of a n64 and before thing. A game that was hard , but showed you how to do stuff was Metroid fusion, it had no tutorials but taught you through environmental or contexxtual context. Darks souls was used in my example because that game does not hold your hand at all, there are alot of things you have to figure out but the game teaches you in other ways, its why people rarely complain about it. You are at a point where you require more challenge and enjoy things that require skill and an actual though process. I dont think the Sa2 treasure hunts were hard, i found them easy but they were tedious, especially the first time around, most people will not play game more than once or twice. You enjoyed this flawed becuase it required you to think, and figure things out but if that was not the goal of the dev it was a failure on their end. You have to remember who the target audience was when they made this.
@bandlabman462 I dont think either of us can confidently say what developers intended here to be fair. Also I dont play Dark Souls so I cant really comment on your comparisons.
SA1's treasure hunting is just far less replayable because it's so easy once you've played these levels a few times. The SA2 hunting stages are always fun for me to play because I have to really engage with the mechanics. I often have to use multiple hints before I know for sure where to look, I have to look around for emeralds that aren't currently being tracked (being rewarded for finding emeralds out of order is awesome too) and the levels are more varied in SA2. They're not all just open areas to fly around in, yeah some of them are like that like Pumpkin Hill & Meteor Herd but some are more cramped and hallway-like, like Death Chamber and Egg Quarters, some require you to hit switches to reach certain areas, some require you to dig through walls to reach other areas, there are swimming/underwater mechanics in Aquatic Mine, Dry Lagoon and missions 3/5 of Death Chamber and other level specific mechanics/gimmicks like gravity, hour glasses, the Turtle in Dry Lagoon, safes of Security Hall and the stealth of Egg Quarters. And the extra missions and ranking system of SA2 just tie it all together. The extra missions in SA1 are laughable in comparison I also just like that the stages are bigger in SA2. The stages in SA1 are so small that you can have all 3 emeralds showing up on the radar at the same time, and the Tikal hints telling you exactly where to go on top of that is just insulting. Yeah, SA1's stages can be fun to try and speedrun through but there's no thinking here. No puzzles to solve here, just fly around until the radar pings (which will happen very quickly). And Sky Deck's gravity switching and switch pushing is more annoying than these mechanics in SA2's stages. Yes, I don't think the gravity mechanics of Mad Space is that bad compared to Sky Deck. At least you can avoid the planets until an emerald shows up on them (at least on a replay, on a first playthrough when you don't have the iron boots you are forced to go to the lowest planet to get them). And at least you can just hit a switch in Aquatic Mine, you don't have to struggle to put it in the right place like in Sky Deck. I think SA2 could have made things more casual friendly, because a first playthrough is going to be rough for basically everybody. I'm fine with the nerfed radar, though I think it doesn't work as well in some stages like Security Hall due to the time limit and safes you need to unlock. The only time I get frustrated with having to backtrack places I've already been is when I need to activate a switch I already activated earlier. One thing that does bother me is just how precise you need to be when digging for certain emeralds. Hints will sometimes tell you exactly where you need to dig but if you've not gotten the hint and found where the emerald is, it's very likely that you can spend a long time just randomly digging where the red exclamation mark is until you randomly find the emerald. It's already annoying enough that it's basically impossible to get these emeralds until you are tracking them but then it's hard to get them even when you are. I like to think of the SA2 hunting stages as just more levels of the same game, rather than a separate game. If Knuckles' Speed Highway is stage 1 and Sky Deck is stage 5, then Wild Canyon is stage 6 and Mad Space is stage 14. And that's why these stages are more challenging than SA1. One thing that I'd like to see in an SA1 remaster/remake is to turn Big's levels into extra hunting stages for Knuckles. His Emerald Coast, Ice Cap and Emerald Coast areas, as well as the whole Twinkle Park area that Sonic explores are perfect for Knuckles to explore and they can give Knuckles the swimming mechanics that Big has, and that he has in SA2.
SA2 is all about Route memorization which is only for those that replay the game ENDLESSLY and that's why its hated its not about exploration their hiding spots are specifically made to waste your time as you bee line from the first hint passing up any possible emerald nearby. The hint system also removing score is a low blow since on first playthrough they are truly worthless. Its not a skill issue its a META issue. Simply Returning the radar to the old way improves the stages that are 5X bigger stages than SA1 as well. The locked radar should have been a challenge level instead of the first playthrough of the stage.
@@snintendog I think if they ever made a SA3 the best compromise would be bringing back triple emerald tracking, but on "hard mode" do single tracking as you said. I think thats the most reasonable solution. I disagree with it being about route memorization or wasted time, but I will agree that losing points for using hints is dumb. You're already being slower by having to take the time to find a computer, thats penalty enough. And it does discourage their use.
I really agree with you In my first play through in sa 2 two years ago I really hated treasure hunting stages I remember spending about 10 min in each level (Mad space 30 min) after finishing the 3 stories I thought I hate sa 2 but after a while I started a new play through for the game and I think I start liking this game a little bit. When I am scrolling in UA-cam I saw a video of 100% the game and I really liked it then I start seeing a lot of challenges of the game sometimes I see your old lives and videos these videos are so good After all of that I start mastering treasure hunting stages for now I 100% the game twice one last year and the other one 2 days Thank you for encouraging me to like this masterpiece Hope you make a new challenges videos in the future❤
As time went on and I started getting higher ranks, the more I look forward to playing these stages. Knuckles and Rouge controlling so well make it fun to speed through the stages covering as much area as possible to get a beep.
I've never really had trouble with the hunting stages in either game. I mean, it does kill the pace but after speeding around and almost dying or getting frustrated by the mech stages it's nice to actually to slow down from time to time
I agree, but please, next tme you make a video like this, I highly suggest you don't present your title and video the way you did. This "I'm gonna deliver the hard truth that you suck, and you're just gonna have to swallow it!" approach really puts a lot of people off, including me, and most of the time it tends to put people on the defensive, meaning they're less likely to hear out your arguments. A better title could've been "Why you struggle with Sonic Adventure 2's Treasure hunting", or "How to learn to love Sonic Adventure 2's Treasure hunting", instead of attacking the audience right off the bat and then having to pull the whole "Wait, don't go into the comments yet!!" schtick. Presentation is everything in a video like this. Just because more people see your video doesn't mean they're all going to actually hear you out if you're immediately putting them on defense before they can even hear you out.
@@flyingpiggles1034 It was just a funny bit, it really isnt that deep. If anyone feels "attacked" by it then thats kinda cringe on them. It was obviously in jest, and I clarify that multiple times throughout the video. Like sorry but im not going to change my writing style and sense of humor. Its fine if it doesnt vibe with someone and they dont wanna watch, no hard feelings.
Im not saying you're wrong for having a preference, but personally I find harder levels more fun. It gives me more motivation to replay a game when I can see myself getting better at it.
The thumbnail at the end of the video is something i heavy agree with. People who argue about those levels being bad are just mad they stink, i have intentionally spent extra time in those levels trying to catch every type of thing before i did my actual objective, all because i was having fun.
Cool video! I've been getting back into sa2 recently and am really appreciating it more, love going for the A ranks! I think the sa2 treasure hunting isn't as bad as most make it out to be, but there's a few things I find frustrating. Firstly, I think the radar should track all 3 emeralds at once. It's not really an issue for me in the smaller stages, but the bigger stages like Meteor Herd it is annoying to fly right past one and then have to spend yonks looking for it again once the game says you can. I feel like it slows the pace down a lot. But then again, it's not an issue once you spend more time getting familiar with the ins and outs of the stages. I also do think it encourages exploration and learning the level back to front. Second, I mostly like the hint boxes, but the clues in mad space are beyond confusing, there's no way I could figure that out without a guide 😆 Thirdly, the physics in stages like mad space just make no sense and could do with a rework. Although I more than acknowledge that the jank is part of the charm of the adventure games! I also really am not a fan of the bomb gimmick on rouge's temple stage, very not fun lol Thanks for the video!
4:44 You're right and you're a genius and you should make a second channel! The SA2 treasure hunting stages definitely grew on me a lot. The mech stages too. It's SO liberating to actually enjoy every gameplay style in SA2 for what they are instead of getting mad and hating them for what they're not. The developers intended for these gameplay styles to be fun, so if you just shift your perspective and see it through their eyes, then you'll see what makes them fun
Fully agree that once you get used to it its a lot easier, and if you're on PC you do have the alternative of using the Mod Launcher to enable all 3 radars at once. Also, that is such an interesting Rouge costume lol.
Its actually an official costume lol. Its only available in multiplayer mode after getting all her eblems. The dreamcast version had even more outfits, i did a video on them a while back
Yeah, people sometimes sound like they just want to leave the level as fast as possible without doing nor seeing really anything, just for the sake of it and not in a best-time way, but in a way that bypasses any skill check. I myself always wanted the shards to be harder or more intricate just so I have a reason to be in the stage longer.
I think alot of the people with that mentality are the picky eaters who dont want anything thats not sonic lol. They view the other stages as an interruption.
I only have 142 words to say about this... ... ... ... Let's take a dive, in Aquatic Mine Once was a coal pit, but now it's a water ride Makes you wanna sit back, enjoy the life And do things you like doing, get to shine It sure beats fighting with them foes all the time But I gotta do it, they always stay out of line Sometimes I wanna just chill and land But I'm the protector of the Emerald and gems I stay knuckled up, I'm in a deep cut I'm seeing skulls that burn, they trying to cut me off Avoidin' my luck, I'm feeling kinda stuck I'm in narrow hallways running like it's a ballgame Hand tracks be trackin' me to different doorways In a maze, and I don't know what to do Guaranteed though, I'ma find the Emeralds They don't call me Knuckles for nothing, I can't lose!
SA1: Easier & less tedious completion experience. SA2: More challenging & will tell you that you have a skill issue. While also being much more rewarding & better reflects your skill.
Sa2's treasure hunting is more rewarding because when you find an emerald that the radar isn't currently tracking you get more points and it feels like you're getting much better at the game
I've always preferred SA2's Treasure Hunting because the stages forced you to be more engaged. Sometimes I have gotten frustrated when I was on story mode and wanted to process the story, but that was because my focus was elsewhere. I haven't played SA2 in a while so I am very out of rhythm. However, I'll never forget the day I mastered Mad Space's gravity and got the emerald on the train and at the bottom of the planet so smoothly. That was when I even started getting better rankings in the mech stages that I didn't play often. People who say they simply want to be entertained are people who view video games the same as movies and TV, passive entertainment to be consumed, instead of active engagement. The people who want the hand-holding SA1 game are the people who merely want to steam roll through a game mindlessly instead of taking their time a learning what a game has to offer.
I've always enjoyed these treasure hunting stages but I'll admit it took me about 30 minutes first time I beat mad space. Pretty much every level can be divided into 3 distinct areas. You only have to go slightly into each one to see if the radar goes off. Knowing this it's pretty achievable to get the A rank.
The main positive for the treasure hunting levels in SA2 over SA1 is the simple fact the levels were designed around it. That’s also why I prefer the mech levels in SA2 over the Gamma levels in SA1 despite Gamma controlling so much better. There are a lot of really awkward segments in SA1 because each level was designed for Sonic in mind. When you aren’t playing Sonic, the levels just lose a lot of that flow in the gameplay. SA2 missions have really creative level design to play around the tools the characters get. If they just improved the controls, I’d be willing to play an entire game that was just the treasure hunting levels, or the mech levels. That’s honestly the only problem in my eyes. I know enjoying mech levels is an unpopular opinion, but the level design allows me to forgive the issues they have. There really aren’t many games that play even remotely similar to either mission type.
mario sunshine has a similar issue, it doesn't hold your hand and makes the game and levels harder and people hate it saying the game controls and is made horribly. the treasure hunting in sa2 is good, just because it's harder and requires more thought to be good at does not mean it's bad
Sonic Adventure 2 treasure hunting isn't bad. I just wish the radar worked like it did in the first game. Having to back track to an area you've already been to is annoying.
This doesn't even mention that SA2 hunting movement is basically just an upgrade. When soaring into a surface that isn't climbable in SA1 you will simply start falling but SA2 at least keeps you soaring in a different direction. Digging is easier in SA2, etc Also Mad Space is so insanely over hated. Just remember a few pieces and it can easily be done in less than 2 minutes.
I actually liked the treasure hunting stages more than speed stages, the characters are just so fast and agile, and it's up to you to put their skills to use, there is no intended path for you to take, no automated spectacles to watch, just you and a big, open stage. SA1's stages didn't hit the spot for me, since some levels were not even designed for Knuckles. Casinopolis and Speed Highway are also really tiny, you often get a reading of all 3 emeralds at once
I don't know how to describe it, but my problem with SA2 Treasure hunt stages are that some of the stages are either to open or closed in. I feel like in SA1 you had more freedom to move around in the stages however you wanted. Security Hall and Pumpkin Hill is like the only 2 stages I like from SA2 and stages like Death Chamber, Aquatic Mine and Egg Quarters is just not fun because how it limiting Knuckles mobility. As for the radar, I still think the SA1 radar is better for the SA2 treasure hunt stages. However, I do think SA1 could work with either radar. Since the stages aren't that massive and the emeralds are much bigger and have a lighter green tone so it would be easier to see them even if you're not hunting for that specific emerald. Tikal and the Hint box work in both, I don't have a preference. Also, I just like how Knuckles plays in SA1, so it was just fun to move around the stages as him. I just prefer SA1 over SA2 in general, don't know if this made much sense, but I just wanted to throw out my opinion into the mix.
The levels in SA2 are much more expansive and detailed and the gimmicks are more interesting so as levels they are clearly a step up from SA1 but the radar is what I have a problem with. It feels like it only shows one emerald at a time so players dont beat the early stages in less than a minute. They shouldve switched this mechanic based on the level. For small stages like Knuckles and Rouge's first levels this isnt a problem since the levels are small enough so backtracking isnt a issue but the pyramid ones suck since they're so crammed and back tracking is such a pain, would've made them so much better if the radar worked for every emerald at once for those ones
sonic has always been "replay and get better" apparently people just think sonic is just all about going fast when it isnt really all that... so they just hate on different gameplay styles that arent "go to point a and to point b!"
I agree, except limiting you to only three hints per emerald piece in Mad Space was way too cruel. In Adventure 2 it was always the Sonic stages I disliked. Now that's a huge step down from Adventure 1, not the mech or the treasure hunting stages.
I got a hold of a casual guide playlist for sa2, the narrotor doesnt explains the locations but tells me to have a route and restart at times which i found better
Yeah I think thats like the 2nd step that everyone graduates to after mindlessly wandering isn't working. Its like mindless wandering, but more intentional.
i absolutely love the unique stages and gimmicks of each treasure hunting stage in sa2, and even the obscure computer hints are so much more fun to puzzle together, but my god i despised those levels. sa1 had genuinely enjoyable treasure hunts, and i think youre right that knowing the map made it easier. i dont mind the levels being difficult, but each of them being huge and complicated just makes them feel like a huge waste of time. i agree that sonic games are skill based, for the mech and sonic stages, but a treasure hunt shouldnt be something you "get better" at when the whole concept of "getting better" is literally just to memorize the stages and emerald locations. thats not really skill at all considering literally anyone can do that. if i wanted to play waste time and scour a gigantic level for no reason simulator i would but sonic adventure 2 is SUCH a good game and its so unbelievably disappointed that they took a perfectly good level concept from sa1 and turned it into the most grating, boring, time consuming levels they could.
Well not to "um actually" you, but anyone can argue getting better at anything is just memorizing stages. To be good at sonic levels you're memorizing the most optimal route that balances score and speed. Getting good at mech stages is memorizing where you can rack up big scores and time saves, etc. I think you just dont like the treasure hunting, which is fine, but its hardly fair to call it a waste of time
I never got into SA1 much actually, a lot of the levels felt so bland. But SA2 is still one of my favorite games, and while the treasure hunting levels are sometimes frustrating, I really like the change of pace. IMO it's the best system.
The notation that the speed stages are somehow the only good part of SA2 has always been incomprehensible to me, as the other gameplay styles provide a much needed variety of pace. Being able to just exist in a space and relax as you get to know the environment and search for emerald shards (or keys, etc) always just scratched such an itch for me in both games - especially in SA2 where the speed stages have a much more linear design and rigid camera system. And the mech stages are fun too as a sidenote, requiring you to play more carefully against more aggressive enemies (especially in the 100 ring missions). Great points about the hints, too. I always avoided the Tikal orbs in SA1 because it annoyed me how she just directly shows the path. The hints in SA2 and even many of the omochao lines add a lot to these levels being actual locations and not just stages to get through. One thing I will say in favor of SA1 treasure hunting stages, however, is that I like the visual variety of the stages Knuckles went to more in SA1. Treasure hunting in the city was always such a vibe that's unfortunately missing in SA2, as the majority of Knuckles' stages in the latter game take place in warm-palette areas with primarily reds and oranges too often imo. I just wish he maybe had a stage in the city, or maybe one outside of the pyramid where he flies around on ruins above the quicksand. Maybe a jungle stage or one in the Metal Harbor / Weapons Bed area. Just a little bit more visual variety would've been cool. But otherwise it is 100% an enjoyable and welcome part of the game, and my personal favorite gameplay type.
What other games are you referring to? Isnt frontiers the only other one that added in multile characters again? And that was a DLC that came like months later? Unless you're talking about like one of the 2D sonics or something. Or maybe unleashed but I would say the werehog is very out of place
@@snakey888 yes? What do you think civil means exactly? Im not calling you an idiot or anything bad, im stating that I cannot take these opinions seriously. You're still entitled to them. You're getting worked up because I dont agree with you. Take a step back from replying to every single comment and breathe. Its not that deep, these are video game opinions.
@@snakey888 I found the comment funny. Idk what you want from me, I can give you the typical fake ass youtuber replies like "wow interesting thanks for the comment!" if you prefer from now on, but I think its more respectful to be honest.
@snakey888 Theres no hypocrisy lol. Nobody has been uncivil towards you. Its ok for me to think your opinions are ridiculous, Im not denying you your right to have them.
SA1 emerald finding is kinda just inoffensive. You go in, go out, done. The only spice is the last mission wanting it done in one minute or less. SA2 turns it from said inoffensive distraction to something actually good? I really dislike the changed radar(yeah, cold take, lmao), but all other changes are for the better.
To be fair, I'm bad at them and I love them. In the first game I enjoyed all the stories, but as far as gameplay goes Sonic and Tails are the most fun to control. Yeah it takes me forever in the second game, but I'm just chilling listening to the music.
I agree Sonic is the most fun. I do like the variety though. Its like a meal, the main course is obviously the best and most important part, but I still want the side dishes and maybe a little dessert.
@OBGat I would consider Big to be like the exotic weird item on the menu that Im happy to try once but not going to order it again lol. But thats a consequence of innovation. You're gonna try alot of ideas and not all are great. I dont actually like Bigs Fishing (in case the joke in the video isnt obvious to anyone) but I would rather them keep trying new ideas and some of them to fail, vs them playing it safe and only sticking to what works. Thats how innovation works, you need failures to build on. Look at the Wii U, it was a failure of a console for Nintendo, but it paved the path for the Switch. And the fishing mini game in frontiers was actually quite fun in my opinion, and we might not have gotten that if they didnt try it in adventure.
SA1s treasure hunting is my favorite for the speed that it can be completed, the scenery in each level, the music… SA2’s treasure hunting is great due to the better designed levels, and great music as well (prob the best treasure hunting music lol). But the fact that it only shows the emerald shards in order is a pain… Though there is a mod for SA2 that makes the emerald radar work exactly like the SA1 version
@@brian8152 Im aware of that mod, but even that isnt exactly the same because of the games logic for placing emeralds is different, and you dont get a "!" when near buried emeralds making some of them harder.
@@EpicDuskk Yes, that's a big problem with the radar mod. It can already be hard enough to find the buried emeralds with the red !, but without it it's a real pain.
As a treasure hunting fan. Mad space isnt even a bad level. No the bad level is death chamber or as i like to call it “box simulator.” Because open area and fast traversion whats that
I do think it's one of the better game mode in SA2. Mostly because it's less buggy than speed and I'll shoot myself before someone can make me say that the shooting gameplay is good. Some levels like death chamber or mad space are fucked up because nah gang, you liking it doesn't mean it's good. The rest is good, the radar works well for sonic adventure 2 due to tips and just the fact that they are more closed space and at the same time larger space than SA1. It's not perfect I'm genuine about it but it's very underrated.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZ7jBAfALq6dMAAnFUwUaGEs0Ow6Tp3TcwxB7ZGapxQ/edit#gid=8 there sure is! Every emerald hint and its corresponding location. You can use it to cheese A ranks
I think theres a difference between complaining and criticizing. Its good to be a little critical about things. It opens up good and insightful conversations. Of course some people take it too far and just wanna cry and complain unproductively, but I usually nip that when I see it in the comments. I just like discussing video game opinions.
Never played Sonic Adv 1 since it never looked appealing to me as a kid. So I have no saying when it comes to which is better. But still, you have me agreeing with you that Sa2's treasure hunting stages are much more fun than just "Follow the orb and get the emerald". Sa2 gives the player a new gimmick, and trusts them to utilize it while also think of the given clues on where the emeralds could be. Its fun. But no I still despise Mad Space the only thing holding me back is the great OST playing, sorry but that tramatized me as a child and made me think my game was broken when the computers gave me reversed hints
I think of a topic, write up a script, record the audio, record some gameplay that illustrates what im talking about, edit it all together, and then pray the UA-cam algorithm actually sends the video out to people.
I LOVE the emerald levels in this game and always have done, I DID play SA2 first and went back to play SA1 and there's things in SA1 I wish were part of 2 but I wouldn't ever say emerald levels, I used to play the heck out of them and learned all the spots and and hints, the levels have a better sense of progression too with only tracking one at a time, makes me feel like I'm, you know, playing a video game lol
I loved treasure hunting in SA1 very much but in SA2 not so much since the maps are too large for my liking and I don't like the radar either but I do like Wild Canyon, Pumpkin Hill, and Dry Lagoon but I hated Death Chamber, Aquatic Mine, and Mad Space
Alright as a treasure hunting level lover Security Hall in my top 3 stages of the game but nah man you're actually a little nuts with Mad Space that level is wack as hell
I like SA2s stages more but it sucks they nerfed the radar. I feel like if people just took time to play the game they would get it. By the time I played through the game the second time, I was knocking these stages out within 5-10 minutes. Still isn’t good, but way better than my first play through.
DAMN I did not expect so many comments! I'll try to respond to as many as I can gamers, but remember to keep it civil and respectful. I actually moderate my comments which I know is an uncommon practice on UA-cam lol. I'm definitely enjoying the conversations and points alot of you bring up! Feel free to suggest topics for future videos, I like doing discussions like this.
i love how unique the treasure hunting maps are in sa2, especially the little gimmicks like the water levels or turtle or weird gravity. i never played sa1 so i can't compare but i sorta wish they'd kept treasure hunts in new sonic games, it couldve evolved into something so cool by now.
Last night, I A-ranked Mad Space Hard Mode while collecting every small animal and Chao box. And no, I didn't die to reset the timer.
My only problem with the SA2 stages is that if you happen to find an emerald that isn't the one being tracked, it doesn't reset the emerald point timer. Like, if you find the second emerald after 30 seconds, you'll get a Perfect bonus, but if you find the first one 30 more seconds after that, you'll only get an Awesome because it took you a minute to find the emerald you were _supposed_ to be looking for.
Always really liked 2's Treasure Hunting. 1's is good, but just feels more... bleak than 2.
The linear radar can be a bit of a pain at first, but the satisfaction of finding an emerald shard randomly is unmatched.
SA2's hunting stages are great, I'm tired of people treating the running stages as the ONLY good thing about the game.
finding the 2nd or 3rd emerald without the rader is gamebreaking in the best way.
I've been saying this for years and i finally feel validated
I do think that you're mostly right, but the thing that aggravates me is the radar system in SA2. It's the only thing that I wish stayed the same between games because it's frustrating to try and find one emerald piece while passing by another. It's especially frustrating when the emerald piece locations are randomized in places where it's easy to get lost.
GOD EXACTLY I HATE IT
I think your point on how people can enjoy casual experiences more based on preference is really the reason so many people hate SA2's treasure hunting. The thing with Sonic games is that, even on your first playthrough, even if you're bad at the game, you can find enjoyment in all of the cool, new experiences in individual levels.
But since SA2 makes the radar work one emerald at a time, and the maps are so elaborate, it makes it hard for most people to have a good first impression since you're going to meander around on the first playthrough like SA1- only with three times more difficulty due to the lack of a radar. Growing through repeated playthroughs and the replayability is great, but it turns away newcomers while mostly benefiting experienced players. Especially if you're going through the story and, instead of a fun time seeing character interactions and the plot unfolding through quick yet enjoyable stages, you spend the next 20 minutes in meteor herd or mad space while feeling put down because you got a low ranking on a stage that feels so confusing that you don't want to ever play it again. That feeling also makes you NOT want to replay treasure hunting levels, so you're mostly left bitter or with a distaste for them.
Good design-wise, good for experienced players, good ideas.
But the execution makes it bad for someone trying out the game for the first time after going through stuff like City Escape and bad for someone who enjoys the game but doesn't have the time or energy to repeatedly play the levels to learn them, even on a second or third story-playthrough.
@@beangus.4342 The issue with that mentality is that, you don't even need the radar. Most of the emeralds are just visibly floating around. Just use your eyes and you won't be meandering around. Even on your first run.
SA2 treasure hunting stages have always been my favorite. I think the radar works perfectly for those levels. The key is just to do efficient sweeping, which all the levels are designed to do.
in Meteor herd, you can go through at least 70% of the map in less than 30 seconds.
People trying to not defend SA2's flaws without saying "git gud" or "skill issue" (Impossible)
People watch the video before commenting challenge
@@EpicDuskk Oh, don't worry. I did watch it. You had interesting points. I just find it annoying when people also use these phrases.
I agree and both disagree with your point of playing TH stages multiple times. It's cool that when you get better then it's fun but frankly that's exactly the problem. You need to replay them a lot to start having fun If the players don't enjoy it for the first time they won't even want to repeat them again. They definitely suffer the most from having a massively nerfed rader too and some stages being massively open.
Rogue's 5 minutes time limit was also pretty evil for a normal stage. You either luck out and get them in time or abuse death to manipulate the emerald location and recover back some time.
@lafbkhope5391 I agree with that. Its a matter of preference. I personally enjoy a game more when Im not just winning on the first run. But there isnt anything wrong with wanting that either. But I think anyone giving the game another go should maybe try coming at it with a different perspective.
I'd certain the reason why Adventure 2's radar only tracks the one Emerald piece at a time is because of the hint computers. They give you hints for one Emerald piece, so having all of the Emerald pieces tracked at once will confuse the player with the hints given.
I do think it’s interesting how SA2’s treasure hunting stages represent the tug of war the Sonic series has (from a gameplay perspective) always had when trying to appeal to both the casual players who don’t care for memorizing levels, and the hardcore players who replay and memorize the levels.
The players who like these are people who really get a lot out of memorizing this game and getting rewarded with better performance and time.
And the casuals and occasional replayers are left frustrated from a slightly more tedious experience with the radar and gimmicks the levels are programmed with.
Nah, they're just hard and boring. I know what your trying to say: knuckles / rouge levels are just hard, you need to get used to them, e.t.c.
But 1. I don't want to get used to them, I just want to have a fun time and enjoy the game!
2. Other levels are FAR easier. Its like playing Mario and then switching to dark souls.
@golden_manzen thats valid, nothing wrong with preferring easier games. Older games were always harder, they've gotten easier nowdays
I mean it's easy to find the emeralds, I don't have an issue with how you play the treasure hunting levels at all; they're simply not fun. That's the real issue.
I find them very fun, but like I said fun is subjective
I always preferred Sonic adventure 2 treasure hunting personally
It took me a while to get there. Like my first run as a kid I absolutely hated the 1 emerald tracking thing. But as I learn more and improved I started to appreciate it. I feel more rewarded when I get a good score in SA2.
I played adventure 2 first so adventure 1 stages are much easier and I didn't like that
Maybe it’s because I both have autism and played 2 first. But I find the multi radar in 1 to be sensory overload.
@@mohamedboutrik6643 That is how I felt, it just felt more rewarding to find ones that the radar wasn't currently tracking
@@freeziboi3249 it was like :"damn that's the luckiest thing ever I can't believe how goated I am"
I completely agree with this video i always preferred SA1 treasure hunting stages over SA2 when i was a kid but as i got older i started to appreciate the changes between the games
This has always been true. The treasure hunting in sa2 has always been more fun. Once you've gotten the hang of sa2s hunting, its so damn fun.
Also Rouges costume
gotta play the dommy mommy rouge outfit lol. I wish there was a mod that had all the skins and just randomly cycled through them though.
@EpicDuskk yeah that'd be cool but I wouldn't know I don't have a pc I play SA2 on Ps3
I played SA2 before SA and after playing it in that order, even WITH the three emerald radars, it just didn’t feel like a competition… SA2= 🐐
The only solution I feel is if you choose to have SA1 rader in SA2, you shouldn't have hints.
I've always been more of an SA2 treasure fan. SA1 has the better radar, SA2 has the better movement & moveset, more creative & original stages, more engaging level design, and the better hint system since Tikal just tells you where the emeralds are.
Yeah I never understood the hate for sa2's treasure hunt hints, like you hate the game because it isn't telling you exactly where the emerald is?
now i wanna see you do the same thing but with the mech shooting stages.
I probably will because I do like the mech stages. I think my next "yap video" will be something in favor for SA1 though so I dont come off as too unbiased
@@EpicDuskk Maybe it'd be on SA1's overworld? Or more gameplay styles?
@@Neo-Metal17 I was thinking of doing the hubworld next yeah. Not 1000% sure though
The problem is if you had a bad experience with these stages from jump, you're not going to want to put in the time to get better at them. I like Sonic Heroes and Shadow, because I've played them a lot, but I understand that not everyone will because if you didn't have a fun first playthrough you're not likely to keep replaying the game.
Its interesting you mention this because I think this is 100% a modern game mindset. Older games were often designed to be almost impossible, because the mindset was "we want players to play a game multiple times". Over the years game development has evolved, and now most games want everyone to be able to win regardless of their skill level. So that makes the older games look way worse by comparison.
Thats just something I have to accept im in the minority on though. I'm the type of person who wants a game I cant beat on the first go, I want a reason to keep replaying it. Most people like you said aren't going to keep going if they're not having fun, and obviously game devs are going to want to cater to the larger audience.
@EpicDuskk It's a matter of conveyance. It's not just a matter of difficulty, but why people are struggling at a part of a game. Super Mario Bros. on NES is harder than most modern games, yet I've still seen people today enjoy it and beat it because it's simple and when people die they understand it's their mistake. For the treasure hunting levels, the radar not giving them all the emerald pieces, the hint system requiring you to already be familiar with the level design, these feel like design elements working against you on your first playthrough. People will say, 'It's not my fault the game is confusing me like this.' The way you're supposed to play the treasure hunting levels is not something readily apparent. Adventure 1 eased you into it by giving you Tikal and the better radar. When you had to do the challenges without Tikal, you felt like you've improved to comfortably be able to do so. I will say that the hints in Adventure 2 are useless to most people, and the game actually disincentivises you from using the hints because they reduce your score. I actually have only started using the hints again recently. I've gone without them for years. I plan to play the levels to the point of memorising all the hints, because I wasn't aware there was a way to essentially guarantee your results. But that would be incredibly tedious for most people. Nonetheless, I agree that it's better if something becomes better over time. That's why I like a lot of Sonic games which people hate, because they improve with experience, but that is a game design mentality people who are more casual or less interested won't have.
@spaghettiking7312 But isnt that the whole point? You're not supposed to be able to have it all figured out and get A ranks on your first attempt. The point of the hints is to give you a clue to look for, not the whole solution. But you're rewarded for playing multiple times and becoming more familiar with the levels. The entire design is for you to replay the levels multiple times. You compared it to Mario Bros which is a similar philosophy of replayability, but thats an entire game you're comparing to individual levels. You can see yourself improve in Mario Bros because each time you play, you get a little further before you die. You're seeing new levels and content, so thats your reward for getting better. Even on a casual first run you're getting the 3 emeralds which is basically reaching the end and completing the level, so there needs to be a different incentive, which is getting the better scores. I will agree I think lowering the score for using computers is overkill though.
@@EpicDuskk It's cool to replay it to improve your skill and get an A rank, but it's frustating the fact that you need to improve your skills to simply clear the level in less than 30 minutes to continue with the history.
I liked replaying them to get the other missions emblems, but it's still annoying for me to play them in history mode
And for the Mech Stages, i really enjoy them!
i've always heard people complaining about SA2's radar a lot, and I've never understood the complaints, most of the stages are set up in a way that they're very easy to navigate and you can easily and quickly find the emerald shards one by one by visiting the main areas of a level looking for a signal, and because of this, these stages are by far the easiest to A rank once you actually understand where they work, and they're also the most fun for me to play because of encouraging exploration of the level, something most of SA2's levels lost from the transition from the first game's open level design
it's just that rare instance where an emerald piece is out of the way, where it doesn't get picked up even after checking all of the key areas in a level, where it becomes mildly frustrating, especially if you're choosing to not use the hints like I do
4:28 Mad space is one of the worst experiences i had with a video game, i remember vividly trying to get on a train, to catch the last shard in Mad Space FOR 20 MINUTES, and i just couldn't get it beacause of the gravity mechanic bullshit, flipping me to the other side, an even if some day i can get every shard in the stage in 3 minutes, i'l still hate it, because this shity moment will forever haunt me.
It's reasonably one of the worst stages just because of how janky the gravity is, so your hate for it is so justified!
Your hate is justified. Though I hate shadows gravity pipes more
skill issue
@@open_420 Nah, the gravity mechanics are terrible, the gravity randomly flips you to other side for no fucking reason, witch makes you los tge train so you have to try again, a there was a time where i landed on the train and the glitched me out of it for no reason
ive always loved sa2's treasure hunting stages, id replay them way more than sa1's, sa1's were sort of annoying to get good at while sa2's are 2ay more skill based.
My favourite treasure hunt in any Sonic game is in Unleashed. Granted I can never get a new set of medals to collect because I memorised them all and they never change, but nothing beats the experience of learning to use the combo moves to platform, gain height or air time to nab those sun and moon medals
Great thoughts! Id love more videos with your thoughts on the game's mechanics like this
even when i find them all quickly the pain is just over faster, its not better, none of this shit should ever be within a million miles of a sonic ‘gotta go fucking fast’ game. good rage bait tho if a bit predictable
lol yall dont know what rage bait is.
I love the sa2 stages i ONLY wish it had the SA1 radar. Yes i know you can learn it and do good routing, but i just think the full rader is funner. Everything else (layouts, hint system, etc.) are all a big step up and make them better.
I do think the treasure-hunting stages are fun, but what turned me off about them is that in the latter half of Knuckles' and Rouge's SA2 stages, I was always afraid of being jump-scared by the hidden ghosts (Pumpkin Hill, Aquatic Mine, Death Chamber, Egg Quarters). That's what made me not like it as much because it always restricted me from wanting to explore EVERYWHERE.
based sonic adventure 2 takes
this is what i need on my yt feed
something can be hard but fun, look at the dark souls franchise, if the issue with fun is skill level but the game mode isn't meant to be hard, thats a failure of the dev not teaching the player properly.
Thats just how older games were though. They didn't hold your hand nearly as much. Part of the fun is figuring everything out. I prefer that honestly
@@EpicDuskk thats not really true by that era of gaming, if anything that was more of a n64 and before thing. A game that was hard , but showed you how to do stuff was Metroid fusion, it had no tutorials but taught you through environmental or contexxtual context. Darks souls was used in my example because that game does not hold your hand at all, there are alot of things you have to figure out but the game teaches you in other ways, its why people rarely complain about it. You are at a point where you require more challenge and enjoy things that require skill and an actual though process. I dont think the Sa2 treasure hunts were hard, i found them easy but they were tedious, especially the first time around, most people will not play game more than once or twice. You enjoyed this flawed becuase it required you to think, and figure things out but if that was not the goal of the dev it was a failure on their end. You have to remember who the target audience was when they made this.
@bandlabman462 I dont think either of us can confidently say what developers intended here to be fair. Also I dont play Dark Souls so I cant really comment on your comparisons.
It's about time someone says it.
SA1's treasure hunting is just far less replayable because it's so easy once you've played these levels a few times. The SA2 hunting stages are always fun for me to play because I have to really engage with the mechanics. I often have to use multiple hints before I know for sure where to look, I have to look around for emeralds that aren't currently being tracked (being rewarded for finding emeralds out of order is awesome too) and the levels are more varied in SA2. They're not all just open areas to fly around in, yeah some of them are like that like Pumpkin Hill & Meteor Herd but some are more cramped and hallway-like, like Death Chamber and Egg Quarters, some require you to hit switches to reach certain areas, some require you to dig through walls to reach other areas, there are swimming/underwater mechanics in Aquatic Mine, Dry Lagoon and missions 3/5 of Death Chamber and other level specific mechanics/gimmicks like gravity, hour glasses, the Turtle in Dry Lagoon, safes of Security Hall and the stealth of Egg Quarters. And the extra missions and ranking system of SA2 just tie it all together. The extra missions in SA1 are laughable in comparison
I also just like that the stages are bigger in SA2. The stages in SA1 are so small that you can have all 3 emeralds showing up on the radar at the same time, and the Tikal hints telling you exactly where to go on top of that is just insulting. Yeah, SA1's stages can be fun to try and speedrun through but there's no thinking here. No puzzles to solve here, just fly around until the radar pings (which will happen very quickly). And Sky Deck's gravity switching and switch pushing is more annoying than these mechanics in SA2's stages. Yes, I don't think the gravity mechanics of Mad Space is that bad compared to Sky Deck. At least you can avoid the planets until an emerald shows up on them (at least on a replay, on a first playthrough when you don't have the iron boots you are forced to go to the lowest planet to get them). And at least you can just hit a switch in Aquatic Mine, you don't have to struggle to put it in the right place like in Sky Deck.
I think SA2 could have made things more casual friendly, because a first playthrough is going to be rough for basically everybody. I'm fine with the nerfed radar, though I think it doesn't work as well in some stages like Security Hall due to the time limit and safes you need to unlock. The only time I get frustrated with having to backtrack places I've already been is when I need to activate a switch I already activated earlier. One thing that does bother me is just how precise you need to be when digging for certain emeralds. Hints will sometimes tell you exactly where you need to dig but if you've not gotten the hint and found where the emerald is, it's very likely that you can spend a long time just randomly digging where the red exclamation mark is until you randomly find the emerald. It's already annoying enough that it's basically impossible to get these emeralds until you are tracking them but then it's hard to get them even when you are.
I like to think of the SA2 hunting stages as just more levels of the same game, rather than a separate game. If Knuckles' Speed Highway is stage 1 and Sky Deck is stage 5, then Wild Canyon is stage 6 and Mad Space is stage 14. And that's why these stages are more challenging than SA1.
One thing that I'd like to see in an SA1 remaster/remake is to turn Big's levels into extra hunting stages for Knuckles. His Emerald Coast, Ice Cap and Emerald Coast areas, as well as the whole Twinkle Park area that Sonic explores are perfect for Knuckles to explore and they can give Knuckles the swimming mechanics that Big has, and that he has in SA2.
SA2 is all about Route memorization which is only for those that replay the game ENDLESSLY and that's why its hated its not about exploration their hiding spots are specifically made to waste your time as you bee line from the first hint passing up any possible emerald nearby. The hint system also removing score is a low blow since on first playthrough they are truly worthless. Its not a skill issue its a META issue.
Simply Returning the radar to the old way improves the stages that are 5X bigger stages than SA1 as well.
The locked radar should have been a challenge level instead of the first playthrough of the stage.
@@snintendog I think if they ever made a SA3 the best compromise would be bringing back triple emerald tracking, but on "hard mode" do single tracking as you said. I think thats the most reasonable solution. I disagree with it being about route memorization or wasted time, but I will agree that losing points for using hints is dumb. You're already being slower by having to take the time to find a computer, thats penalty enough. And it does discourage their use.
SOMEONE FINALLY MADE A VIDEO ABOUT THIS
THANK YOU
I really agree with you
In my first play through in sa 2 two years ago I really hated treasure hunting stages I remember spending about 10 min in each level (Mad space 30 min) after finishing the 3 stories I thought I hate sa 2 but after a while I started a new play through for the game and I think I start liking this game a little bit. When I am scrolling in UA-cam I saw a video of 100% the game and I really liked it then I start seeing a lot of challenges of the game sometimes I see your old lives and videos these videos are so good
After all of that I start mastering treasure hunting stages for now I 100% the game twice one last year and the other one 2 days
Thank you for encouraging me to like this masterpiece
Hope you make a new challenges videos in the future❤
As time went on and I started getting higher ranks, the more I look forward to playing these stages. Knuckles and Rouge controlling so well make it fun to speed through the stages covering as much area as possible to get a beep.
I've never really had trouble with the hunting stages in either game. I mean, it does kill the pace but after speeding around and almost dying or getting frustrated by the mech stages it's nice to actually to slow down from time to time
I agree, but please, next tme you make a video like this, I highly suggest you don't present your title and video the way you did. This "I'm gonna deliver the hard truth that you suck, and you're just gonna have to swallow it!" approach really puts a lot of people off, including me, and most of the time it tends to put people on the defensive, meaning they're less likely to hear out your arguments. A better title could've been "Why you struggle with Sonic Adventure 2's Treasure hunting", or "How to learn to love Sonic Adventure 2's Treasure hunting", instead of attacking the audience right off the bat and then having to pull the whole "Wait, don't go into the comments yet!!" schtick. Presentation is everything in a video like this. Just because more people see your video doesn't mean they're all going to actually hear you out if you're immediately putting them on defense before they can even hear you out.
@@flyingpiggles1034 It was just a funny bit, it really isnt that deep. If anyone feels "attacked" by it then thats kinda cringe on them. It was obviously in jest, and I clarify that multiple times throughout the video. Like sorry but im not going to change my writing style and sense of humor. Its fine if it doesnt vibe with someone and they dont wanna watch, no hard feelings.
Maybe the levels should be fun before you know everything about them
Also maybe levels in a Sonic game should play like Sonic levels
Im not saying you're wrong for having a preference, but personally I find harder levels more fun. It gives me more motivation to replay a game when I can see myself getting better at it.
Been considering making a video like this for years. Glad to see you address it!
Thank you for this take with people going back and forth on the game so often
The thumbnail at the end of the video is something i heavy agree with.
People who argue about those levels being bad are just mad they stink, i have intentionally spent extra time in those levels trying to catch every type of thing before i did my actual objective, all because i was having fun.
I really enjoyed playing the Treasure Hunting stages as a kid.
The video title is me i suck at most aspects of sa2 lmao. Great video!
Tbh this actually makes me want to play the levels again and get better.
Cool video! I've been getting back into sa2 recently and am really appreciating it more, love going for the A ranks!
I think the sa2 treasure hunting isn't as bad as most make it out to be, but there's a few things I find frustrating.
Firstly, I think the radar should track all 3 emeralds at once. It's not really an issue for me in the smaller stages, but the bigger stages like Meteor Herd it is annoying to fly right past one and then have to spend yonks looking for it again once the game says you can. I feel like it slows the pace down a lot. But then again, it's not an issue once you spend more time getting familiar with the ins and outs of the stages. I also do think it encourages exploration and learning the level back to front.
Second, I mostly like the hint boxes, but the clues in mad space are beyond confusing, there's no way I could figure that out without a guide 😆
Thirdly, the physics in stages like mad space just make no sense and could do with a rework. Although I more than acknowledge that the jank is part of the charm of the adventure games!
I also really am not a fan of the bomb gimmick on rouge's temple stage, very not fun lol
Thanks for the video!
4:44 You're right and you're a genius and you should make a second channel!
The SA2 treasure hunting stages definitely grew on me a lot. The mech stages too. It's SO liberating to actually enjoy every gameplay style in SA2 for what they are instead of getting mad and hating them for what they're not. The developers intended for these gameplay styles to be fun, so if you just shift your perspective and see it through their eyes, then you'll see what makes them fun
Funny you joked about that, ive been thinking about doing a seperate animal crossing channel again lol
Fully agree that once you get used to it its a lot easier, and if you're on PC you do have the alternative of using the Mod Launcher to enable all 3 radars at once.
Also, that is such an interesting Rouge costume lol.
Its actually an official costume lol. Its only available in multiplayer mode after getting all her eblems. The dreamcast version had even more outfits, i did a video on them a while back
Yeah, people sometimes sound like they just want to leave the level as fast as possible without doing nor seeing really anything, just for the sake of it and not in a best-time way, but in a way that bypasses any skill check. I myself always wanted the shards to be harder or more intricate just so I have a reason to be in the stage longer.
I think alot of the people with that mentality are the picky eaters who dont want anything thats not sonic lol. They view the other stages as an interruption.
I only have 142 words to say about this...
...
...
...
Let's take a dive, in Aquatic Mine
Once was a coal pit, but now it's a water ride
Makes you wanna sit back, enjoy the life
And do things you like doing, get to shine
It sure beats fighting with them foes all the time
But I gotta do it, they always stay out of line
Sometimes I wanna just chill and land
But I'm the protector of the Emerald and gems
I stay knuckled up, I'm in a deep cut
I'm seeing skulls that burn, they trying to cut me off
Avoidin' my luck, I'm feeling kinda stuck
I'm in narrow hallways running like it's a ballgame
Hand tracks be trackin' me to different doorways
In a maze, and I don't know what to do
Guaranteed though, I'ma find the Emeralds
They don't call me Knuckles for nothing, I can't lose!
SA1: Easier & less tedious completion experience.
SA2: More challenging & will tell you that you have a skill issue. While also being much more rewarding & better reflects your skill.
I love the treasure hunting stages! I got so good at em. I’d take Treasure Hunting over those Tails/Eggman stages any day!
BASED! I've always loved the treasure hunting levels.
I'm going to say this as respectfully as I possibly can. The title of this video is 100% correct.
Sa2's treasure hunting is more rewarding because when you find an emerald that the radar isn't currently tracking you get more points and it feels like you're getting much better at the game
Yeah even casually its a nice surprise when you stumble into one.
I've always preferred SA2's Treasure Hunting because the stages forced you to be more engaged. Sometimes I have gotten frustrated when I was on story mode and wanted to process the story, but that was because my focus was elsewhere. I haven't played SA2 in a while so I am very out of rhythm. However, I'll never forget the day I mastered Mad Space's gravity and got the emerald on the train and at the bottom of the planet so smoothly. That was when I even started getting better rankings in the mech stages that I didn't play often.
People who say they simply want to be entertained are people who view video games the same as movies and TV, passive entertainment to be consumed, instead of active engagement. The people who want the hand-holding SA1 game are the people who merely want to steam roll through a game mindlessly instead of taking their time a learning what a game has to offer.
I agree. Not that its wrong to want a game like that, but I definitely prefer games that are meant to be replayed and challenge you.
I've always enjoyed these treasure hunting stages but I'll admit it took me about 30 minutes first time I beat mad space. Pretty much every level can be divided into 3 distinct areas. You only have to go slightly into each one to see if the radar goes off. Knowing this it's pretty achievable to get the A rank.
Happy 18k subs!
🎉
The main positive for the treasure hunting levels in SA2 over SA1 is the simple fact the levels were designed around it. That’s also why I prefer the mech levels in SA2 over the Gamma levels in SA1 despite Gamma controlling so much better. There are a lot of really awkward segments in SA1 because each level was designed for Sonic in mind. When you aren’t playing Sonic, the levels just lose a lot of that flow in the gameplay. SA2 missions have really creative level design to play around the tools the characters get. If they just improved the controls, I’d be willing to play an entire game that was just the treasure hunting levels, or the mech levels. That’s honestly the only problem in my eyes. I know enjoying mech levels is an unpopular opinion, but the level design allows me to forgive the issues they have. There really aren’t many games that play even remotely similar to either mission type.
I enjoy mech stages too, and yeah I agree the levels are a big improvement based on the fact they're designed for one character style
mario sunshine has a similar issue, it doesn't hold your hand and makes the game and levels harder and people hate it saying the game controls and is made horribly.
the treasure hunting in sa2 is good, just because it's harder and requires more thought to be good at does not mean it's bad
Sonic Adventure 2 treasure hunting isn't bad. I just wish the radar worked like it did in the first game. Having to back track to an area you've already been to is annoying.
This doesn't even mention that SA2 hunting movement is basically just an upgrade. When soaring into a surface that isn't climbable in SA1 you will simply start falling but SA2 at least keeps you soaring in a different direction. Digging is easier in SA2, etc
Also Mad Space is so insanely over hated. Just remember a few pieces and it can easily be done in less than 2 minutes.
Yeah I should have talked about the movement differences a bit probably. I agree with you
I actually liked the treasure hunting stages more than speed stages, the characters are just so fast and agile, and it's up to you to put their skills to use, there is no intended path for you to take, no automated spectacles to watch, just you and a big, open stage.
SA1's stages didn't hit the spot for me, since some levels were not even designed for Knuckles. Casinopolis and Speed Highway are also really tiny, you often get a reading of all 3 emeralds at once
mad space is a good level and the sound track is a banger, ill fight anyone who disagrees
I don't know how to describe it, but my problem with SA2 Treasure hunt stages are that some of the stages are either to open or closed in. I feel like in SA1 you had more freedom to move around in the stages however you wanted. Security Hall and Pumpkin Hill is like the only 2 stages I like from SA2 and stages like Death Chamber, Aquatic Mine and Egg Quarters is just not fun because how it limiting Knuckles mobility.
As for the radar, I still think the SA1 radar is better for the SA2 treasure hunt stages. However, I do think SA1 could work with either radar. Since the stages aren't that massive and the emeralds are much bigger and have a lighter green tone so it would be easier to see them even if you're not hunting for that specific emerald. Tikal and the Hint box work in both, I don't have a preference.
Also, I just like how Knuckles plays in SA1, so it was just fun to move around the stages as him.
I just prefer SA1 over SA2 in general, don't know if this made much sense, but I just wanted to throw out my opinion into the mix.
Having all Emerald shards trackable is better
I disagree
Actually the first All A-rank Emblem I got in SA2 was for Knuckles. Second to last was Rougue.
The levels in SA2 are much more expansive and detailed and the gimmicks are more interesting so as levels they are clearly a step up from SA1 but the radar is what I have a problem with. It feels like it only shows one emerald at a time so players dont beat the early stages in less than a minute. They shouldve switched this mechanic based on the level. For small stages like Knuckles and Rouge's first levels this isnt a problem since the levels are small enough so backtracking isnt a issue but the pyramid ones suck since they're so crammed and back tracking is such a pain, would've made them so much better if the radar worked for every emerald at once for those ones
Tbf I always loved Mad Space even as a kid but I think that was more just cos I loved Rouge and any opportunity to play as her.
You're so real for that
@ we really need more playable Rouge! 🩷
sonic has always been "replay and get better"
apparently people just think sonic is just all about going fast when it isnt really all that... so they just hate on different gameplay styles that arent "go to point a and to point b!"
I loved treasure hunting on these games. I found it very relaxing and fun.
It's a shame how understand appreciated Treasure Hunter and The Mach stages were, tbey didn't need to get erased from the games.
I agree, except limiting you to only three hints per emerald piece in Mad Space was way too cruel.
In Adventure 2 it was always the Sonic stages I disliked. Now that's a huge step down from Adventure 1, not the mech or the treasure hunting stages.
I got a hold of a casual guide playlist for sa2, the narrotor doesnt explains the locations but tells me to have a route and restart at times which i found better
Yeah I think thats like the 2nd step that everyone graduates to after mindlessly wandering isn't working. Its like mindless wandering, but more intentional.
Also made me appreciate the missions more but I can't say the same for the mech stages
i absolutely love the unique stages and gimmicks of each treasure hunting stage in sa2, and even the obscure computer hints are so much more fun to puzzle together, but my god i despised those levels. sa1 had genuinely enjoyable treasure hunts, and i think youre right that knowing the map made it easier. i dont mind the levels being difficult, but each of them being huge and complicated just makes them feel like a huge waste of time. i agree that sonic games are skill based, for the mech and sonic stages, but a treasure hunt shouldnt be something you "get better" at when the whole concept of "getting better" is literally just to memorize the stages and emerald locations. thats not really skill at all considering literally anyone can do that. if i wanted to play waste time and scour a gigantic level for no reason simulator i would but sonic adventure 2 is SUCH a good game and its so unbelievably disappointed that they took a perfectly good level concept from sa1 and turned it into the most grating, boring, time consuming levels they could.
Well not to "um actually" you, but anyone can argue getting better at anything is just memorizing stages. To be good at sonic levels you're memorizing the most optimal route that balances score and speed. Getting good at mech stages is memorizing where you can rack up big scores and time saves, etc.
I think you just dont like the treasure hunting, which is fine, but its hardly fair to call it a waste of time
I never got into SA1 much actually, a lot of the levels felt so bland. But SA2 is still one of my favorite games, and while the treasure hunting levels are sometimes frustrating, I really like the change of pace. IMO it's the best system.
Finally someone said it. I thought I was crazy for preferring sa2.
That's exactly how i feel. And everyone is parroting the same youtubers opinions.
People just don't want to play the game or learn the levels.
You tell 'em, Duskk.
We never said we *didn’t.* 😛
The notation that the speed stages are somehow the only good part of SA2 has always been incomprehensible to me, as the other gameplay styles provide a much needed variety of pace. Being able to just exist in a space and relax as you get to know the environment and search for emerald shards (or keys, etc) always just scratched such an itch for me in both games - especially in SA2 where the speed stages have a much more linear design and rigid camera system. And the mech stages are fun too as a sidenote, requiring you to play more carefully against more aggressive enemies (especially in the 100 ring missions).
Great points about the hints, too. I always avoided the Tikal orbs in SA1 because it annoyed me how she just directly shows the path. The hints in SA2 and even many of the omochao lines add a lot to these levels being actual locations and not just stages to get through.
One thing I will say in favor of SA1 treasure hunting stages, however, is that I like the visual variety of the stages Knuckles went to more in SA1. Treasure hunting in the city was always such a vibe that's unfortunately missing in SA2, as the majority of Knuckles' stages in the latter game take place in warm-palette areas with primarily reds and oranges too often imo. I just wish he maybe had a stage in the city, or maybe one outside of the pyramid where he flies around on ruins above the quicksand. Maybe a jungle stage or one in the Metal Harbor / Weapons Bed area. Just a little bit more visual variety would've been cool. But otherwise it is 100% an enjoyable and welcome part of the game, and my personal favorite gameplay type.
What other games are you referring to? Isnt frontiers the only other one that added in multile characters again? And that was a DLC that came like months later? Unless you're talking about like one of the 2D sonics or something. Or maybe unleashed but I would say the werehog is very out of place
@@snakey888 yeah now I just cant take you seriously honestly lmao.
@@snakey888 yes? What do you think civil means exactly? Im not calling you an idiot or anything bad, im stating that I cannot take these opinions seriously. You're still entitled to them.
You're getting worked up because I dont agree with you. Take a step back from replying to every single comment and breathe. Its not that deep, these are video game opinions.
@@snakey888 I found the comment funny. Idk what you want from me, I can give you the typical fake ass youtuber replies like "wow interesting thanks for the comment!" if you prefer from now on, but I think its more respectful to be honest.
@snakey888 Theres no hypocrisy lol. Nobody has been uncivil towards you. Its ok for me to think your opinions are ridiculous, Im not denying you your right to have them.
SA1 emerald finding is kinda just inoffensive. You go in, go out, done. The only spice is the last mission wanting it done in one minute or less.
SA2 turns it from said inoffensive distraction to something actually good? I really dislike the changed radar(yeah, cold take, lmao), but all other changes are for the better.
Thats a really good way to put it honestly.
To be fair, I'm bad at them and I love them. In the first game I enjoyed all the stories, but as far as gameplay goes Sonic and Tails are the most fun to control.
Yeah it takes me forever in the second game, but I'm just chilling listening to the music.
I agree Sonic is the most fun. I do like the variety though. Its like a meal, the main course is obviously the best and most important part, but I still want the side dishes and maybe a little dessert.
@@EpicDuskkMakes sense, but I don't need Big in my meal. Still prefer 2 because of the streamlined gameplay.
@OBGat I would consider Big to be like the exotic weird item on the menu that Im happy to try once but not going to order it again lol.
But thats a consequence of innovation. You're gonna try alot of ideas and not all are great. I dont actually like Bigs Fishing (in case the joke in the video isnt obvious to anyone) but I would rather them keep trying new ideas and some of them to fail, vs them playing it safe and only sticking to what works. Thats how innovation works, you need failures to build on. Look at the Wii U, it was a failure of a console for Nintendo, but it paved the path for the Switch. And the fishing mini game in frontiers was actually quite fun in my opinion, and we might not have gotten that if they didnt try it in adventure.
SA1s treasure hunting is my favorite for the speed that it can be completed, the scenery in each level, the music…
SA2’s treasure hunting is great due to the better designed levels, and great music as well (prob the best treasure hunting music lol). But the fact that it only shows the emerald shards in order is a pain…
Though there is a mod for SA2 that makes the emerald radar work exactly like the SA1 version
@@brian8152 Im aware of that mod, but even that isnt exactly the same because of the games logic for placing emeralds is different, and you dont get a "!" when near buried emeralds making some of them harder.
@@EpicDuskk Yes, that's a big problem with the radar mod. It can already be hard enough to find the buried emeralds with the red !, but without it it's a real pain.
@@MysticClaws100 In Dreamcast version the red "!" didn't exists
@sonicoouricado9471 Yeah I’ve heard that. Great addition for SA2 Battle to add
As a treasure hunting fan. Mad space isnt even a bad level. No the bad level is death chamber or as i like to call it “box simulator.” Because open area and fast traversion whats that
I do think it's one of the better game mode in SA2.
Mostly because it's less buggy than speed and I'll shoot myself before someone can make me say that the shooting gameplay is good.
Some levels like death chamber or mad space are fucked up because nah gang, you liking it doesn't mean it's good.
The rest is good, the radar works well for sonic adventure 2 due to tips and just the fact that they are more closed space and at the same time larger space than SA1.
It's not perfect I'm genuine about it but it's very underrated.
Hol up I didn't even know there was a spreadsheet 🤨
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZ7jBAfALq6dMAAnFUwUaGEs0Ow6Tp3TcwxB7ZGapxQ/edit#gid=8 there sure is! Every emerald hint and its corresponding location. You can use it to cheese A ranks
Agree. Especially when there's ways to make them easy.
I enjoyed all of the treasure hunting stages (except aquatic mines) personally
I love sa2's treasure hunting stages, but I don't think I could ever enjoy Mad Space, honestly.
These games have been out for decades now and ppl still find a need to complain about things. Definitely the worst side of this franchise💯
I think theres a difference between complaining and criticizing. Its good to be a little critical about things. It opens up good and insightful conversations. Of course some people take it too far and just wanna cry and complain unproductively, but I usually nip that when I see it in the comments. I just like discussing video game opinions.
Uhmm alsoo the treasure stages have some of the best music. Sorryyy
Yeah but like all sonic games have peak music. Its the one thing they consistently do perfectly
Never played Sonic Adv 1 since it never looked appealing to me as a kid. So I have no saying when it comes to which is better. But still, you have me agreeing with you that Sa2's treasure hunting stages are much more fun than just "Follow the orb and get the emerald". Sa2 gives the player a new gimmick, and trusts them to utilize it while also think of the given clues on where the emeralds could be. Its fun.
But no I still despise Mad Space the only thing holding me back is the great OST playing, sorry but that tramatized me as a child and made me think my game was broken when the computers gave me reversed hints
I remember stealing my moms make up mirror just so I can read the backwards hints lmao
how do you make these??
I think of a topic, write up a script, record the audio, record some gameplay that illustrates what im talking about, edit it all together, and then pray the UA-cam algorithm actually sends the video out to people.
Sa2 treasure hunt stages are better imo. Just because of the challenge.
Im hoping they make a return and are improved
I had the same opinion until if went back to get a ranks i started to improve at the treasure hunting stages
Im glad this is a common experience and not just me
I LOVE the emerald levels in this game and always have done, I DID play SA2 first and went back to play SA1 and there's things in SA1 I wish were part of 2 but I wouldn't ever say emerald levels, I used to play the heck out of them and learned all the spots and and hints, the levels have a better sense of progression too with only tracking one at a time, makes me feel like I'm, you know, playing a video game lol
I loved treasure hunting in SA1 very much but in SA2 not so much since the maps are too large for my liking and I don't like the radar either but I do like Wild Canyon, Pumpkin Hill, and Dry Lagoon but I hated Death Chamber, Aquatic Mine, and Mad Space
Alright as a treasure hunting level lover Security Hall in my top 3 stages of the game but nah man you're actually a little nuts with Mad Space that level is wack as hell
Maybe I just went mad
I like SA2s stages more but it sucks they nerfed the radar. I feel like if people just took time to play the game they would get it. By the time I played through the game the second time, I was knocking these stages out within 5-10 minutes. Still isn’t good, but way better than my first play through.