Are we all forgetting Sonic CD is a time travel plot? Metal Sonic is fought in the future. It could be that Eggman was still innovating on robotic Sonics in 2 and 3, and only made Metal chronologically after Sonic 3. A bit confusing, but that's how time travel plots are.
Sure, except the "future" for Stardust Speedway is reached without time travel. You automatically get there in Act 3, the same as all acts. This is because Eggman is taking over each zone one at a time the same time you blast through them.
@@Skyfecta It could be that Metal Sonic was the best variation, and he struggled to make something so perfect a second time with the setbacks of the 2nd and 3rd games. Future or not, he could build him, he just couldn't focus of making him while building a giant flying face of himself and then protecting it once it crash lands in Angel Island
Because MetalSonic fans NEED to make the others out to be his prototypes to make him feel more special than he already is... literally no other reason tbh...
Metal Sonic lost easily and was abandoned by Eggman, his future robots are more bulky and combative meaning he could be trying to improve the robot in some way
To add to this, Eggman appears to have made the Mecha Sonic models as “Anti-Sonics”, but when they were both destroyed, he might have realized the only thing that could beat Sonic was himself, and thus he went back to Little Planet, retrieved Metal Sonic and began upgrading him to be a robotic copy of Sonic that would, one day, surpass the original. Hence why the Mecha Sonic models have not reappeared often but Metal Sonic does.
@wessltov I have theorized the Mecha series robots to be an expiremental line for stranger ideas on how to best the Hedgehog(and the Metal series is a branch series off of the Mecha series, being built with futuristic[or in the case of Metal Sonic, literally future] materials. This line is also more expensive.)
My theory is that sonic CD takes place before sonic 2, and the reason sonic's spindash is different is because tails taught sonic how to properly spindash, rather than the crappy one he had in CD.
thats a cute idea actually,, it was intended to go after sonic 3 though. mecha is designed to be inferior to metal and if CD took place before sonic 3 why would metal just. not be there. and theres a lot of other things that wouldnt really make sense but i will stop yapping now
@@linkydokiThere’s a theory that, considering CD’s time travel mechanics, Metal is actually originally from that bad future where Eggman had control over Little Planet and all its resources. The Mechas would be Eggman later trying to replicate Metal with the time and resources he’d have in the present, to no avail
Nah bro, what is that theory 💀. We've already seen sonic teach tails how to do the spindash in multiple pieces of media and sonic is literally a hedgehog (hedgehog can curl up into a ball).
@linkydoki My explanation for that is that eggman didn't bother to repair metal sonic after CD, and instead decided to make new robots to replace him. At the end of the day, the theory that tails helped sonic refine the spindash is purely my headcanon tho, so there probably are a lot of plot holes
The Spindash thing is just a development oversight methinks. It wasn't originally meant to appear in cd but was added because of sonic 2. Amy's lack of inclusion in other games is also a development thing, since sonic cd was made by the half of sonic team that stayed in Japan after sonic 1. The team who also went on to create knuckles chaotix, explaining her inclusion there.
I don't think the Metal Sonic argument is the slam dunk a lot of people think it is. Sure, Metal might have the most hype around it, but he was also assisted my Eggman during his fight, not to mention that Metal was designed to race Sonic, whereas the Mechas were made to guard the Death Egg, and presumably Mk. II was made to absorb chaos energy. The mechas aren't designed as upgrades for Metal, they were designed for different purposes
There's also the fact that Eggman probably rushed Mecha Mk. I based off of the fact that the playable area in Death Egg Zone was pretty tiny, giving him no time to make a good enough robot to guard the Death Egg. Also, we know that Mecha Mk. II is almost as fast as Sonic even after all these years thanks to IDW
6:21 Japanese Sonic 1 manual confirms that Eggman and Sonic have met before this. This is however their first time fighting for possession over the emeralds
>Japanese Sonic 1 manual confirms that Eggman and Sonic have met before this. This is however their first time fighting for possession over the emeralds You're right. I'd honestly love a prequel game set BEFORE Sonic 1 about the first time Sonic and Eggman ever met each other and that game should be called Sonic Zero.
@@Rishi123456789 Honestly I would've prefer if they adapted US promotional comic storyline for a prequel game. Sonic and Eggman being friends long time ago creates such an interesting chemistry between them and explains why Eggman hates Sonic so much and why Sonic believes there is good in Eggman. Only instead of Eggman being corrupted by negative energy of Chaos Emeralds, he would simply reveal his true colors at certain point and force Sonic to end their friendship. I'm iffy on Eggman turning Sonic blue, but Sonic shoes being an Eggman invention and gift from him to hedgehog would be a nice touch as well (and tie into Sonic Labyrinth with Eggman being able to create a perfect copy of them).
Considering CD is a title focusing around time travel, it would make sense that, even as the first robot, Metal Sonic would be the best. Simply put, Robotnik has more time, starting his work in the Past, all the way up to the Future.
And Little Planet resources were probably unique to that place, so when metal was left in the planet and Eggman didn't have this rare resources anymore, he had to finish this new robotic sonics with other methods and eventually ended just coming back for metal
Yeah... let's see. Our two source options here are 1. The actual official source; SEGA. 2. A fanbase that is famous for infighting.... Yeah.... really hard choice here....
@@naitsabes6222 At this point with the amount of retcons the current Sonic Team is doing to classic sonic it is for the better that he is from another dimension.
@@naitsabes6222 they then retconned that again with the remaster of generations. They changed a few lines and if they wanted to make it consistent with the alternate universe stuff then they wouldn’t have changed a conversation between both versions of Tails to say: “So… won’t all of this have an effect on the timeline?” “Don’t think about it too hard.”
That's an either-or fallacy though. Just consider that there wasn't a consistent timeline back then and trying to make one only by ordering will be weak at best, which is what SEGA is mostly doing about it.
if i recall, wasn't the "see you next game!" screen featuring tails with that car- actually in reference to sonic drift? which was released after sonic CD? would also explain well... the car xD
I would have assumed it was Sonic Crackers, which as you know was reworked into Knuckles' Chaotix; but I guess Sonic Drift works much better with the release order.
I stand with the theory that Sonic CD is still placed between Sonic 1 and 2, but Metal is just quite literally from the future, Eggman simply doesn't know how to build him yet, but he manages to time travel and bring him back from another timeline.
And if we count what happens in Sonic 4, metal sonic is left behind on Little Planet after being defeated by Sonic. The other robot sonic's that come after in Sonic 2/3 could be Eggman trying to replicate metal sonic on his own
i mean it could work, what we see in the game is Present-Eggman using the Time Stones to travel to the future so he can send the robots to the past via the Robot Teleporters
I've heard a theory that states that CD happens between 1 and 2 _for Sonic_ but due to the time travel shenanigans of little planet it was some time after 3 & Knuckles _for Eggman_ which would explain Sonic's sprite and janky spindash while also letting Metal Sonic be the most advanced robotic copy of The Hedgehog chronologically
people seem to forget that *metal sonic failed* in cd, just like how all the other robot sonics failed in their games. it makes perfect sense to me that eggman would abandon metal after that
3:40 The whole plot of Sonic CD involves time travel with Eggman having control over the dark future so i always thought thats where Metal Sonic came from, it would explain why hes more advanced than the other sonic clones and why he doesnt show up in other classic sonic games, hes just from the future so he wasnt built yet.
That's actually a great explanation tbh. Because he doesn't make any kind of appearance outside stardust speedway bad future. Which is the only level that forces you in a bad future even if you made good futures in act 1 & 2.
Bruh if I recall correctly it's even stated that Future Eggman sends metal to the past to help his past self achieve world dominance faster in the damn official manual
The thing with Eggman using worse versions of Metal Sonic is probably because Metal got trapped in Little Planet when Sonic freed it from Eggman's chains, so Eggman went to use the previous attempts of creating a robotic Sonic, thus why they are just pushovers. "But Sonic 4 takes place after Knuckles' Chaotix, so how was Metal still in Little Planet even though he was used twice before it?" At this point, I don't even try to piece it together.
It begs the question of if 4 is even canon anymore, since it never got a definitive ending, little planet is referenced as being normal and not captured in modern media, and mania pretty much refused to reference it as "sonic 4"
Counterpoints to the Counterpoints 1. Tails and Sonic don't have to be together. While it is mildly out of character for them to not go on vacation together we see in the Adventure games among others that at least right now they live their own separate lives and can even go decent intervals of time without seeing each other. 2. We are reading way too far into this teaser image. Sonic 2 and CD were in development at the same time by two different teams. The Tails image was likely just them wanting to reference the character because they couldn't add him 3. Is actually pretty sound. Sega of America tends to add story elements that don't need to be there, and I mean we got an official mention of Tails Sky Patrol before Tails' Adventure 4.Yeah that's also fair, but I mean I explained half of them
Anyone want to counterpoint the counterpoints to the counterpoints, so on and so forth? Get into a counterpoint spiral of controversy and opinionated chaos.
POINT 2!!!! I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS im shocked nobody mentioned how tails WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYABLE, it was meant to be sonic and tails, and this was confirmed after beta leaks,
@kyla_kylington Shit forgot about that. Well, at the same time, this was like the 3 game in the series, and to my knowledge, 3 & Knuckles wasn't in development yet, so who's to say why Tails was cut, I mean sure it could be for story reasons but is that really in character for Sega to do?
@SSJacksWolf Riddle me this hot shot. If cd takes place after Adventure, then why do the character designs go from Classic to Modern and then back to Classic
Retconned in Origins. And yeah, I don't particularly like the replacement of them literally not even properly meeting before the events of the game, he just sees the events and goes on to solve the crisis. It's lame.
@@MegaFan5 Then you should really go Sonic 1 to 06 or possibly Secret Rings. Unleashed caused like half the continuity issues(at least it was what felt like half until the current era caused a bunch more) because it was clearly intended as a soft reboot to get away from 06, before that was taken back later.
@@lpfan4491was it even retconned? The Sonic 1 opening cutscene in Origins doesn’t exactly have to mean that Sonic 1 was the very first time Sonic ever met Eggman period
I'm a firm believer of 1>CD>2 for a couple reasons: 1.)If we have to take in Gameplay mechanics, Sonic's Spindash in CD feels very different to the rest of the classic trilogy which can lead to the idea that Sonic hasn't "Figured out" how to use it the best until he meets Tails in 2(If we take that as canon) where he teaches Sonic the better method. 2.) Metal Sonic *did* match Sonic's speed, but he also crashes into a wall and falls apart easily. It's likely the Mecha Sonic line on the other hand was built with combating Sonic directly in mind rather than keeping up with him. 3.)Eggman created Metal Sonic on Little Planet which had the time stones and most likely very advanced technology. So when Sonic stops his plans, Eggman had to start from scratch and came up with the Mecha Lineage. As for why Mecha Sonic MK1's in 2, Let's not forget Sonic *stormed* the Death Egg which caught Eggman off guard and probably sent Mecha out in a panic to keep Sonic busy for a bit. 4.) This one's admittedly a stretch but Sonic 4 actually gives us a good reason why Metal wasn't used for a while. He was still on Little Planet when it went back up in it's natural orbit. Even taking in that S4 isn't canon, it's likely Eggman eventually retrieved him from LP and got him back up to pristine condition. 5.) Amy's absence can easily be explained. She wasn't able to keep up with him yet. It's not until Superstars where she manages to stay on Sonic's tail and even then they don't really see each other commonly until Adventure 1.
My theory is that Sonic CD is before Sonic 2, there’s WAYY more explanation for it to be before Sonic 2 than there is for it to not be, but also, here’s me tryna prove these theories wrong: the fact that Metal Sonic is so much better than Eggmans other robots is likely because he spent all his money and parts on it, he no longer had the budget to make anything like metal sonic. For Amy, she probably was just no mentioned in the games ever again because who knows. For the spin dash, all I can think of is that Sonic got it from Tails by going to the future or he knew who to spin dash but his was a weaker version or something.
Metal sonic was built to match Sonic’s speed using future technology, eggman built the mecha sonic robots to overpower sonic or to try to recreate metal sonic with more limited technology. The spin dash is weird in sonic cd because tails hasn’t taught sonic a better way to do it yet. “See you next game” is referring to sonic drift. Amy Isn’t in sonic 2 or 3 because she wasn’t needed until sonic adventure.
Finally someone with a concise, rational, and easy to justify explanation for such an obvious matter, thank you. The Devs did not mess up by putting CD before 2, it makes complete sense and does not need a ""death of the author"" fan ret-con.
@@Mr.MR2111Flying away from Earth≠leaving existence. You're confused by CD's bad ending showing it reappearing. That was Eggman's doing because he has the Time Stones in that ending.
My theory is that I think Metal being absent during 2 could be explained as the robot simply being out of commission since it's battle against Sonic. We know it's one of Eggman's crowning achievements so it may have taken a long time to repair such a complex machine. This complexity may have also been the reason for all the future 'Robo Sonics' being such duds as Metal may have been a "lightning in a bottle" moment for Eggman and he may have struggled to recreate his masterpiece, only coming close with Mecha Sonic.
@@toottootsonicwarrior5777 there's also the fact that according to sonic 4,metal was trapped in little planet, so any apparition of metal in a game that happens before sonic 4 could be a separate robot like metal sonic kai (from chaotix)
@@nicolasbernasconi7228 It's a huge shame we had to wait until Shard to have two Metal Sonics fight eachother in any media _(unless StC/Fleetway has something that I'm not aware of)_ when the material was right there in the games.
It could also just be way too much of a hassle to bother for most of the time It's not like robotnik ever makes like an army of Metal Sonics even AFTER years after having moving on to more advanced plans
An interesting theory: Sonic CD’s present time takes place between S1 and S2. The past time takes place before S1, and the future time takes place after S2
Although I respect the argument that states Metal Sonic should come later due to how much more successful he is compared to the other robot Sonics, I think there’s an easy way to explain why he was so much better: Unlike the Mechas where he had to focus his efforts towards the Death Egg, Metal Sonic was his main weapon of conquest as he searched for the time zones. That means he got a bit more quality effort put into him instead of being a glorified side project. Also, even if that isn’t the case it’s not like Eggman hasn’t gone backwards in terms of designing things before. I mean just compare The Death Egg Robot which he built very early in his career to the first boss of Sonic Colors. Just because something is newer doesn’t mean it’s gonna be better.
I think that's easily explained for the E-1000's. They're a mass-production unit, or as Omega puts it, "worthless consumer models," in the same fashion as an Egg Pawn. Corners needed to be cut to make them easy to slap together.
Tails not being in CD post-S3 could be explained as just "Sonic went by himself." We know he goes on his own adventures (SA2, 06, Unleashed), his friends just usually happen to appear. Also the "see you next game" could just be explained as an Easter egg like Batman Sonic or Fun is Infinite.
Of course that's an easter egg. It drives me crazy when people look at an easter egg and say "that definitely explains everything". If i create a Sonic game, and add a tiny easter egg about, i don't know, Superman, does that mean that Superman exists in Sonic world? No!
The manual you showed said that sonic was doing his super spin attack which means that could be the move he uses during sonic cd, bc it's slower than the sonic 2 spindash so maybe that was the move that tails improved and then sonic found a way to do it too.
I think a good way to handwave some of CD's odd inconsistencies are the game's wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey circumstances. For instance, Little Planet's Past/Future stuff is all over the place. Some places are also very high-tech and fancy looking, with designs and setpieces we don't see outside of the planet. It's likely Dr. Eggman used the unique futuristic technology of Little Planet (specifically of the Good/Bad Futures) to build Metal Sonic, explaining why he's so superior to the Mecha Sonics that followed him. It also explains WHY Eggman seemingly went backwards in robot Sonic progress: without the awesome technology and such from Little Planet (which disappears by the end of CD along with Metal), Eggman's left with the same technology he was already using beforehand. So he chases that Metal Sonic bliss, iterating with the Mecha Sonics in an attempt to succeed and match what he had lost until he eventually reclaims Metal Sonic in Mania/4. And as for Sonic's Spin Dash...notice how inferior it is to the Spin Dash we all know and love. Revving up in standard ball form, holding the button down to build momentum...it's likely that Sonic was just starting to learn how to Spin Dash, and took him a while to really perfect it, as we see with the much better handling version in 2 onward. (Easier control, leaning forward with that super fast rev...) Simple as that!
I've always thought the Metal Sonic theory was silly. Just because fans generally think that Metal has a cooler design doesn't actually make him objectively a better robot. It also ignores the fact that Metal failed in CD, so why wouldn't Eggman try to make a different Sonic duplicate? I think he tried to make a robot based on Sonic's speed, saw that it didn't work, and then focused more on Sonic's combat abilitities with his newer robots. I can only speak for myself, but I found the fight with Mecha Sonic in 2 much more difficult than the fight with Metal in CD, which at least in my case makes him a more of a threat to Sonic. Also, technically Sonic CD takes place before and after all other Sonic games.
This is my honest opinion: The placement of the game has been retconned several times. Back in 2016 Sonic made an appearance in Lego dimensions and along with him Robo Sonic (or as he has been confirmed to be called now Mecha Sonic MK1) appeared, and Eggman said “My first creation to truly rival you.” Sure this game isn’t canon, but this doesn’t imply that when that crossover was developed SEGA was working off of the belief that the Robot Sonic from Sonic 2 was the first creation. Then, once again in the non-canon but officially licensed Archie comics some of the final issues of the series was telling the event of sonic CD, and it is made explicitly clear that the Death Egg has already come and gone. But then we also have cases like sonic origins where it is undeniably stated that the game takes place in between Sonic 1 & 2, and of course in sonic CD there is the iconic “see you next game”. So I feel like no matter which side of the argument you’re on there’s evidence to support your headcanon. Personally, although I used to be in the camp that believed CD came after Sonic 3, I don’t mind CD taking place before Sonic 2. After all, there is something kind of neat about Metal Sonic being the first sonic robot, and despite several attempts to replicate his success, egg man could never quite make a perfect copy, which is why he’s bothered to keep metal sonic around, even after all of his failures and betrayals. There was just something special about him you can’t easily mass produce
@@MegaFan5 I think the scene in Origins overrules Sonic Adventure’s. The timeline was far less developed. Besides, they both Achieved the same thing: Tails was depressed but meeting Sonic changed everything. It’s just like how the Amy flashback isn’t consistent with Sonic CD but we understand what it is supposed to mean
@@MegaFan5 There was never a point in sonic CD where sonic was carrying Amy while metal sonic was chasing them. I would also bring up the fact they’re not even on little planet in the flashback, but I’ll give them a pass since that’s more of a saving assets thing, I’m also giving them a pass for the designs not being consistent. So I’m trying to give flashback as much leeway as I can, but simply it doesn’t lineup with sonic CD perfectly but you still get what it’s trying to convey. The importance of the flashback is still intact even if it’s not 100% accurate
@@comicfan1324 By all accounts, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that it is Little Planet in the flashback. I know it was originally Windy Valley, but that version of the stage does not exist anymore, so there is no actual continuity oopsie through asset reuse in the final game.
My theory is that Dr Robotnik created Metal Sonic using resources from the future during Sonic CD and once Sonic destroys Metal Sonic, every Mecha Sonic variant onwards is him slowly building up to the original version that he eventually builds post S3&K as the timelines would eventually link again, meaning he would be able to regain the resources he earned early via time travel
I have a crazier theory/headcanon. Metal Sonic wasn't made by our Eggman. He came from a bad future where Eggman got Sonic robotized. He is Sonic. That's why Eggman hasn't been able to replicate him, and why Metal Sonic insist to be "the real Sonic" in Heroes.
@@MegaFan5 haven't thought of that since Nega is a whole another mess in the canon, and I don't know if he's gotten to little planet. For the sake of consistency I'd say Metal Sonic was Sonic robotized by Eggman's machinery put in place on little planet's past and Eggman just found him in the future causing destruction. But hey, if you can elaborate that headcanon throwing Rivals into the mix then do it, i love frraky headcanons
Robotization only really existed in American Sonic material. Which is why it makes no sense to me, especially since we should see more evidence of robotization, such as with other robotized animals.
metal sonic being in CD always made sense to me because hes from the future. you never fight metal in the present. it locks you to the good or bad future. After CD, eggman would then go on the experiment in the present making his own metal sonic in sonic 3&K
No, not at all. Eggman made metal, you just only race in the future. He also travels from the bad future to the earth, so it's possible Stardust Speedway's future is actually the present
Neat train of thought, but every act 3 in cd is basically just boss act, and they are locked to the future in every level, presumably so you have to see which future you made.
@@RedTHedge my point still stands that you only see metal in the future. not to mention that many years later in sonic 4, metal sonic is still rotting in stardust speedway which would technically be the future. then you have to ask who the is metal from sonic heroes? maybe its one that eggman built after CD like in sonic 2 and 3&K none of this really makes sense because if we go off of sonic 4's logic, there was a metal sonic in sonic heroes and sonic 4 at the same time which could still be possible but two metal sonics is crazy.
5:40 i personally think sonic developed his own version of the spindash after sonic 1 and tails tried replicating it out of his admiration for sonic, which explains the differences between the two
My Counter point : The ending cutscene of Sonic CD in Origins is where Sonic gets the tornado flying to West side island and flys past Amy because he doesn’t have time to pick her up
CD happening before 2 just makes so much sense when you also consider Sonic 3. Sonic 3 happens immediately after the events of Sonic 2 with the Death Egg crashing onto Angel Island and knocking it down to the ocean. How would Eggman be able to try to conquer Little Planet and go back to the crashed Death Egg on Angel Island after CD ends all without Knuckles noticing?
I wouldn't take anything the US manuals from the Classic Games as true. Sonic CD's manual calls Amy Rose "Princess Sally" and the Knuckles Chaotix manual talks of things such as "The Power Emerald," and it also says Charmy Bee is 16 years old. It also says Vector is a devoted Christian, so the US manuals have many inconsistencies and shouldn't be taken as fact
@@Ollie.H-23 Here is a translation of Chaotix's jp character bio: "He was the first insect to cross the speed of sound, and he is so proud of it that he cannot keep quiet when he is denied. What's more, he is quite moody and mature in his words and actions. The self-proclaimed "fastest insect in the world", he flew to the island in search of new flowers."
@@Ollie.H-23 Charmy is the opposite of his current version. Also here is a translation of Vector's JP character bio "An extremely cheerful and optimistic person. However, he actually has a stronger sense of camaraderie than anyone else, and has the strength and kindness to face any challenge. He believes in the existence of God, and comes to the island after hearing the news of an island of miracles."
@@SonicEnthusiast-fst people just kind of have a hard time understanding is what I'm guessing. Sure it wouldn't be fun, but some people just have aren't great at processing
"Metal can't come before Mecha because Metal is better" is kind of a stupid argument when you consider Eggman built Metal Sonic with access to alien resources (Little Planet) as well as future resources AND an indefinite time frame to build him due to the Time Stone we KNOW he had in his possession. Mecha Sonic comes AFTER Metal Sonic, and is worse than Metal Sonic because Eggman simply doesn't have the resources to rebuild Metal Sonic now. That's what makes Metal irreplaceable. That's why, canonically, there's only ONE Metal Sonic.
Also using the US instruction manual as an indication of canon is also not a great point. We all know how unreliable the localization was. Greg Martin literally gave Sonic a mohawk, we don't talk about it. Outside of the US manual, which was never canon to begin with, there is NO canon indication that Tails taught Sonic the spin dash.
eggman and sonic are said to know each other before sonic 1, and just because a character doesn’t appear in a certain game doesn’t mean they don’t exist yet. These characters are not attached at the hip besides maybe sonic and tails.
The thing about the spindash that everyone seems to forget when talking about this topic is that knuckles can do it too, and I doubt tails would teach it to him Maybe the spindash is some technique that's passed down from generations and tails possibly researched it and learned it, while sonic, seemingly being an orphan, never learned how to do it properly, resulting in the weird spindash in cd. Or it's just a gameplay mechanic that's been retconned as sonic always being able to do it lol
I've got a lot to say about the "Sonic CD takes place after Sonic 3" evidence, because I am a strong believer in Sonic CD taking place in between Sonic 1 and 2. My reason for Metal Sonic being so much better than the Mecha Sonics and being a regression is mostly just that Eggman tried redoing Metal Sonic's likeness, but trying to give more to him failed overall. Eggman tried doing Metal Sonic, giving him more battle capabilities, but is overall more bulky, meaning the abilities could be used. Then Mecha Sonic Mk. II was realized, using the power of the Master Emerald to go super and thought that would be enough, but he made it moreso as a sequel to Mecha Sonic; a Mark II, if you will, and just built off what was already there, meaning it was still quite bulky and didn't do much unless powered up. Then Eggman just decided that Metal Sonic was good enough and decided to reuse him for everything else and added some more things to that. Heck, other people and companies have done the same thing in real life, like Crash Bandicoot's series. Tried something original with Wrath of Cortex, then with Twinsanity, both didn't capture the exact things that made Crash 1-3 fun, and after many years of trial and error, went back to Crash 4. It's happened with Sonic, too. Like how they tried doing the same Classic Sonic Physics as Sonic Mania and Generations in Sonic Forces, couldn't do it correctly, and then just went back to using Mania's physics straight from the code, and even adding the Emerald Powers as the new thing. And as for Amy not appearing in Sonic 2 and 3, everyone in the series says "Long time no see" to Sonic for a reason; Sonic is a drifter that just runs away after a job's done. These characters have their own lives, and usually only get together when stuff is going DOWN (or, at least before games like Colors, Forces, and the Comics, where they seem to always be together). And according to Sonic Origins, Sonic used a plane to get to Westside Island, and I don't think Amy has any resources to get her there; she's meant to represent the common folk in the early days. And as for the Spin Dash thing about Tails teaching it to Sonic; Tails' Adventure only has him unlock that when he has an item with Sonic's face on it, which could imply that Sonic was the one who created the Spin Dash, but Tails is the one who pefected it and taught THAT to Sonic. Sonic CD is the game that Sonic learned the Super Peel-Out in, and considering it and the Spin-Dash are so much similar in CD, Sonic could've figured things out (he's not stupid; he knows how to fly a plane and utilize his speed in unique ways, he could probably think of the Spin-Dash as well). And if Tails DID teach Sonic the Spin-Dash before Sonic CD, why is it so much worse? Maybe Sonic could've thought he could improve it, but just couldn't? Maybe, but it's kinda unlikely. Even then, Sonic CD's manual in English calls Amy "Princess Sally", so I don't think they should be fully trusted. That's just my own addition to these thoughts.
I'm trusting CD being after Sonic 1 mainly due to Sonic Team working harder to keep Sonic's lore consistent, what with hiring a lore manager and retconning Classic Sonic to be past Sonic rather than an alternate universe Sonic. Still, this theory is pretty interesting to think about! Great job on the video!
so to Counterpoints to the Evidences: - the confusion mainly came from Ken Balough who was infamous for basically not giving a crap about the franchise. - *the Manual Evidence:* the CD Manual mixes up Amy & Sally Acorn, because SatAM just came out, that's also why she shows up in Spinball. - *"Metal Sonic is the most Advanced, Eggman would never downgrade"* two issues with that one: 1- No, he really isn't. At least not in CD; he can't tell Amy & Sonic apart, it crashed into a wall & broke, which is why Robo Sonic is so heavily armored. And then you have Mecha Sonic that can use the Chaos Emerald energy, which is something Metal couldn't do until Eggman Retrofitted him in Heroes. Most of Metal Sonic's achievements come from the OVA. 2- Egmman has downgraded his robots before, with the most recent example being Forces where he prioritized mass production over style - *Amy doesn't show up in 2 & 3+K:* Sonic has a plane, Amy doesn't. Is just that simple, each of the 4 games take place at a different island & we see Sonic leave before Amy can actually see where he went at the end of CD - *the Tails Easter Egg:* both games were in development at the same time & took separate approaches to the same Design Document (as seen with the SpinDash, but also HillTop & Emerald Hill being part of the scrapped Time travel), so yeah the Easter Egg could only have been a Sonic 2 reference, otherwise it would have been Knuckles. As to why CD came out so late... most likely TOEI's animated cutscenes
I'm pretty sure the teaser "see you next game" was referring to sonic drift since...it has a car. That or it's just a joke, keep in mind this is the same game that gave us mario face sonic and batman sonic. Amy not being present in sonic 2 and 3 feels like a moot point. The ending animation to origins showing us amy with the gang implying she joined with them at some point AFTER CD. I think Sonic origins retcons this same thing with the spin dash. At the time saying tails taught him the spindash was a cool idea to try incoperate gameplay with the story. But in other media such as sonic prime. It's implied sonic always knew the spindash and to a bigger extent the dropdash.
In terms of Metal Sonic and Eggman using seeds instead of animals in CD, I saw a theory around that Metal Sonic was built by Eggman in the future in Little Planet so he had more access to more improved tech. Since he couldn't go back to Little Planet at the time, he had to make crappier Sonic copies. And the seeds could also be just Eggman experimenting with Little Planet resources, possibly in the future too.
The Sonic Manga had a whole chapter about Tails getting drunk at Casino Night zone after knocking back a whole bottle of champagne (that was stuffed into a bunny girl's cleavage, incidentally) losing all his rings gambling, then beating up some random guy for more gambling money. I swear I'm not making this up.
From what I remember is. didn't sonic meet tails after 1 and the reason why sonic visited little planet was because tails told him of the mysterious planet that appears once a year over a specific lake so sonic goes to see if its true then learns that Eggman has chained it down. All this before sonic 2
My head canon is that after metal Sonic's defeat, he was trapped in a bad future, and if you played Sonic 4 episode 2 episode metal, you will know that, and that would explain why metal sonic isn't in 2 or 3 and knuckles.
Fans forget something very simple. Sonic CD and 2 were being developed by two entirely different teams SIMULTANEOUSLY. It wasn't meant to be in a timeline. Sega of America and Japan just couldn't agree on anything, so we got 2 games.
“See You Next Game” isnt at the end of the game! It’s a secret image from the sound test that Judy Totoya made in reference to the fact that tails would be making an appearance in S3K. Not lore!
After Metal fell, his chip was lost in the city… only to be found 2 or so years later in Sonic 4. In between those points Eggman tried replicating and possibly surpassing the original Metal Sonic experimenting with more whatever the fuck he was doing with Silver Sonic, bulkiness (Mecha Sonic MKI) and agility (Mecha Sonic MKII) and I also believe during that point he remade the shell but couldn’t perfect the coding to be exact, explaining his appearances in Sonic the Fighters and Triple Trouble and Chaotix… that’s my head canonical explanation of that plot hole.
7:41 But here's a problem, sonic the hedgehog 4 has an episode about metal sonic, which is canonically a continuation of sonic cd from the perspective of metal sonic.
"Tails invented the spindash according to the US instruction manual. This is canon." >The US instruction manual >Canon I was tempted to stop watching right there. "He can use the spindash in his spinoff game" By using the SONIC item.
I always imagine the reason why there are robotic Sonics that are not as good as metal Sonic is because Eggman didn’t have enough time and budget for a proper one. (For example in Sonic 2 he was doing the whole “death egg” thing.)
11:24 Izuka is known to be inconsistent When asked why the moon was intact in *Shadow* after it was blown in half in *SA2* he said “it rotated” which the moon cannot do When asked about Sonic & Blaze not addressing each other in *Sonic 06* after meeting in *Rush* he said “they all had amnesia” When asked about the Earth situation, he said ‘there are two Earths. One with people, one with animals. And sometimes they crossover’. Seriously, what the heck
I think the reason Tails isn't with Sonic in CD is because he was on his own adventure in Tails' Skypatrol, which is proven to be Canon by the IDW comics. As for "See you next game" thing, it is most likely a hint that Tails is going to be in the next upcoming Sonic game at the time, which would be Sonic 3, a game that came out a year later after CD
>canon >IDW Yikes. With that being said, I DO like and subscribe to this theory, as Tails being in Sky Patrol to justify his absence was the first thing that came to mind as well.
Am I missing something here? Nowhere in that scan you just posted suggests that Tails taught Sonic how to spindash, it's literally the other way around. And there's NOTHING that states Silver Sonic and Mecha Sonic Mk. II are weaker than Metal Sonic in his CD iteration, especially when Mecha was one of few to be able to control chaos energy as much as Sonic and co. could at that point, and even acquire a super form, that's just weak reasoning.
10:05 I read the whole passage and nowhere does it say Tails taught Sonic how to Spin Dash. The move Tails is doing in the final paragraph is the rolling technique from Sonic 1.
the truth of the matter is simple, CD was probably getting worked on around the same time as sonic 2 which meant that they probably just headbutted the spindash in the game and also why its using the sonic 1 model instead of the improved sonic 2 model and also why tails wasn't added in the game.
Between 1 and 2. Metal Sonic doesn’t mean anything. He was simply built to (out)match Sonic’s speed so he’d get caught in the Stardust Speedway trap. Which failed. The other badnik Sonics (Mecha Sonic MK I and II) were built with the purpose of defending an area. All of them have different design and function philosophies, and all are generally successful at them. They have no bearing on a timeline, except the Mecha Sonics, where one naturally is the literal successor to the other.
Or maybe sonic team just… didn’t care… I understand it’s not as fun as speculation but I feel like putting more time in a thing that not even the original developers thought about seems a bit pointless
If metal sonic is "better" than the other robots than why does eggman replace him for a shitty boss that takes 4 hits. In fact the only time metal does something other than kidnapping is in the future, after eggman improves him... I think I know my theory is dumb but still
lol the old US manuals aren't canon. Unless you believe that Amy is Sally Acorn, Sonic lives in Mobius, and his speed comes from his shoes. Tails did not fucking invent the spindash.
I hate to spoil the fun, but none of this would have happened if SEGA of Japan and SEGA of America never split apart to make their own sequels to Sonic 1 in the first place.
Sonic 1's japanese manual says eggman meet the sonic several times before sonic 1 and US manuals isn't canon japanese manuals ate canon. US manuals changes so much.
Metal isn't "more advanced than Mecha." One is a duplicate of Sonic and another is a big Sonic-themed droid. They serve different purposes. Developers are just coming up with characters for a given game. Just because they're not referenced in a later game doesn't throw the entire timeline into question. Nothing everything is a "plot hole." US manuals barely know what they're talking about. Sonic didn't learn to roll into a ball from Tails. He's a hedgehog smfh, he rolls into a ball. It's interesting that you reference Tails Adventures taking place before Sonic 1 when the US manual actually places it after Sonic 2, which is another mistake. Lastly, Sonic 1 isn't the first time Sonic met Eggman. The Japanese manual indicates that they've been rivals for a while. Naoto Ohshima intended for it to be the CD version of Sonic 1, so it's definitely closer to that than after Sonic 2. It entered development before Sonic 2 and they coordinated with the Sonic 2 team. Artist Yasushi Yamaguchi also felt that it took place between the two well before Origins placed it there. And when does Sonic 4 take place? Metal's shown still left at Stardust Speedway after CD as if he hasn't been in a tonne of Classic and Modern games since then. Episode Metal's clearly a rushed afterthought that we shouldn't overthink. It even says in Episode Metal that a long time has passed, so there's no concrete reason not to take the release order for Sonic 4. It's a nothing story, seriously.
There is a way to explain Metal Sonic. The robots seen in 2 and 3 are the prototypes for Metal and since Metal Sonic was badly damaged in Sonic CD, since both 2 and 3 happen right after CD, Eggman didn’t have a lot of time to fix Metal Sonic and resorted to using the prototypes.
Here's an idea. Maybe Metal Sonic took Eggman a long time to make so he decided it'd be easier to just wait until Little Planet comes back around next year, rather than completely rebuilding Metal from the ground up.
@@MegaFan5 Planet Freedom is just a loose adaptation of Sonic's world. It is very inaccurate, but they did get a bunch of old concept art for things like Knuckles having sunglasses.
@@MegaFan5 In unleashed the planet was shattered, it isn't normally like that. And the continents were definitely inhabited since they were regions that were just separated. Considering that it's confirmed humans just live in larger containers while the animals live in smaller islands (that AREN'T floating), it can't be the same.
I am definitely a 1 > CD > 2 person, and I can explain Metal's existence. Now, I did read some comments saying how he built to just race Sonic, but another comment, which is relevant to what I'm going to say, is that he's from the future. Now, they said that Eggman brought him from the future, but what I'm thinking is that an Eggman, from a different timeline (aka the bad future timeline), actually sent his Metal Sonic to the past, in order to aid his past self. That's just my headcanon, but there is more. The reason why Metal isn't present in future titles until Chaotix is because, and I believe this was from a UA-camr I've watched, Metal was stuck on Little Planet, which is why the Mecha robot line exists: Eggman is trying to replicate Metal in some way, either waiting for Little Planet to come back, or until he can perfectly remake him (which could explain his ability to be able to use chaos energy in things like IDW or, technically, Mania's animated shorts here on UA-cam)
There is one thing that everyone forgets about Sonic CD: Is about Time Travel. Sonic faces metal sonic in the FUTURE (all bosses zones are in the future). And there is the time stones. Even the spin dash can be explained of him (from the present), gaining part of the memories from the future timeline. The same goes for eggman. So after the events, metal sonic is destroyed in the future, and eggman re-recreates him only when he suceeds with the advanced technologies of him (probably in Knuckles Chaotix). And I guess the sonic mania Doesnt happens in the main timeline. After S3k is sonic 4 in the main. But after generations in the mania time line, after S3k is mania. (But I like to think that the mania timeline was supposed to be the american sonic from the famous Sonic bible, in the planet mobius and etc).
Do you know speaking of the sonic timeline? Does anyone have any idea what the deal with the Phantom Ruby is? Sonic mania truly takes place in the main timeline then why doesn’t modern sonic and modern egg man already know what the ruby is? Why doesn’t sonic remember being transported to a future where Eggman conquered the world? Did prolong exposure to the Phantom Ruby erase their memory of it, kind of like how the ruby erased Eggman’s memory at the end of Sonic Forces as revealed in sonic IDW? If that’s the case, it’s real convenient that it didn’t erase their memory, but just this one rock.
they could have forgeted it either way, between Mania and forces, there was many events with extremely maximum danger and alot of experimentations from Eggman, it is not impossible that they forgot.
@@MegaFan5 Mania is in the main timeline, while Encore is the main timeline where Sonic doesn't go to Forces, and Adventures is the timeline after Generations that he did.
@@Sonic2024freedomera OK, and how do you explain sonic forgetting the time he travel to the future where egg man conquered the world, and he had to team up with his future self and a red wolf to save the world? especially since the bumble cast claims the entire series takes place within about a year and a half that’s a pretty big thing to forget
I think the notion that Tails invented the Spindash is a misunderstanding of what that text actually said. It claims Tails learned how tuck into a spinning ball *while running* (Something Sonic can do in Sonic 1). The Spindash starts from a stationary position, not the 'running start' that Tails gave himself. I think the text was just trying to emphasise that he eventually learned how to copy Sonic's pre-existing spin technique. I feel like the wording would be different if it was implying that feat was a new thing entirely.
Couple of things: Tails is present in CD's soundtrack room, flying the Tornado and the "See you next game" was in reference to Sonic Drift on the Game Gear rather than Sonic 2...I think. Both of these could support CD happening after 2 and combine with Adventure 1 starting Tails off living alone despite still being in Sonic's shadow (making it possible for Sonic to have gone on adventures without him even before Tails became more confident). On the other hand, CD and 2 were made at the same time, so inconsistencies with Metal likely stem from that rather than lore (because Silver is DEFINITELY a prototype). Although not intentional, this is supported by Eggman making Omega but never doing anything with it (unless Rouge's guess that Omega was meant to keep Metal from scanning the real Shadow is correct). Eggman may have made the perfect Sonic duplicate on his first try, but slept on his own creation in favor of new ones (apparently, ones that can Spin Dash). When the evidence is so strong on both sides, I opt for what Sega says and figure Amy was too slow to keep up with and find Sonic after he left South Island (assuming CD takes place on the same island as Sonic 1) and settled in Station Square until Adventure.
Awesome video! Can you do a Sonic Colors Theory like with the Wisps? A mystery with them needs solving. What do the Wisps do while they're inside Sonic's tummy? Why do they only go into him through his tummy? And what makes them so tired they fall asleep inside him like they did in Sonic Lost World when he doesn't use their power?
I always thought they were kind of just going into Sonic's own inner headspace, but the specific part of his body that they fly into is his heart. Since the ending theme song of Colors is called Speak With Your Heart. But that's just me i guess lol
6:22 Eggman did know Sonic before Sonic 1, though. In the manual, there's a quote from Eggman along the lines of, "Sonic, that blasted hedgehog. He always foils my plans!" This implies that they have met at least once before.
CHAOMIX I HAVE AN AGE THEORY, SO YOU KNOW HOW DUMB PEOPLE WILL SAY “sonic is 15 blah blah blah their young” BUT THATS NOT TRUE CUZ IN SONIC CD LIL PLANET PASSES EVERY YEAR ONCE A MONTH SO IN MANIA LIL PLANET IS BACK SO A YEAR PASSED AND SONIC 4 ITS BACK AGAIN LIKE IM PRETTY SURE THEIR MUCH OLDER SO PEOPLE WHO SAY PRIME SONIC MAKES SENSE ARE WRONG CUZ HE AINT YOUNG MODERN SONIC PROBABLY ALREADY 18 or older
Well I always figured that the "see you next game" teaser was supposed to be meant for the next game released after CD, which was sonic 3, where tails appeared in, and not meaning "see you next game" chronologically referring to sonic 2.
I'm convinced it's taking place between 1 and 2, even before they made it canon. Looking at it from the development side, obviously both teams had the idea that Sonic shall be able to spindash to move faster in a protected form. Looking at it from story wise, I'd say Sonic obviously came up with it himself and still tried to adapt to how he can make it even better for himself. It's like how he becomes faster and faster each game and these days doesn't even need to transform to defeat older final bosses.
The REAL DEFINITIVE answer is the creators of these games DID NOT CARE. They just wanted to make cool momentum based platformers guys it ain’t that deep.
What do you think? Are you a 1 > CD > 2 kinda person, or are you a Sonic CD Truther and think it fits elsewhere?
havent even watched the vid but instant W + W comment
Hi
CD is peak.
I'm a 1>CD>2 kinda person
It just makes so much sense, aside from Eggman using inferior Metal Sonics in StH2 and on
Are we all forgetting Sonic CD is a time travel plot? Metal Sonic is fought in the future. It could be that Eggman was still innovating on robotic Sonics in 2 and 3, and only made Metal chronologically after Sonic 3. A bit confusing, but that's how time travel plots are.
Bro thats fire
You're Too Fucking Cool
Sure, except the "future" for Stardust Speedway is reached without time travel. You automatically get there in Act 3, the same as all acts. This is because Eggman is taking over each zone one at a time the same time you blast through them.
@@Skyfecta It could be that Metal Sonic was the best variation, and he struggled to make something so perfect a second time with the setbacks of the 2nd and 3rd games. Future or not, he could build him, he just couldn't focus of making him while building a giant flying face of himself and then protecting it once it crash lands in Angel Island
"eggman got Metal Sonic from an alternate future" is too good to pass up, and I like it.
Why is the logic of "Eggman may just have been experimenting" not applied to Metal Sonic being replaced? Especially if Sonic destroyed him previously
Because MetalSonic fans NEED to make the others out to be his prototypes to make him feel more special than he already is... literally no other reason tbh...
Metal Sonic lost easily and was abandoned by Eggman, his future robots are more bulky and combative meaning he could be trying to improve the robot in some way
To add to this, Eggman appears to have made the Mecha Sonic models as “Anti-Sonics”, but when they were both destroyed, he might have realized the only thing that could beat Sonic was himself, and thus he went back to Little Planet, retrieved Metal Sonic and began upgrading him to be a robotic copy of Sonic that would, one day, surpass the original. Hence why the Mecha Sonic models have not reappeared often but Metal Sonic does.
@wessltov I have theorized the Mecha series robots to be an expiremental line for stranger ideas on how to best the Hedgehog(and the Metal series is a branch series off of the Mecha series, being built with futuristic[or in the case of Metal Sonic, literally future] materials. This line is also more expensive.)
@@therealslimweegeeIDW
My theory is that sonic CD takes place before sonic 2, and the reason sonic's spindash is different is because tails taught sonic how to properly spindash, rather than the crappy one he had in CD.
thats a cute idea actually,, it was intended to go after sonic 3 though. mecha is designed to be inferior to metal and if CD took place before sonic 3 why would metal just. not be there. and theres a lot of other things that wouldnt really make sense but i will stop yapping now
@@linkydokiThere’s a theory that, considering CD’s time travel mechanics, Metal is actually originally from that bad future where Eggman had control over Little Planet and all its resources. The Mechas would be Eggman later trying to replicate Metal with the time and resources he’d have in the present, to no avail
Nah bro, what is that theory 💀. We've already seen sonic teach tails how to do the spindash in multiple pieces of media and sonic is literally a hedgehog (hedgehog can curl up into a ball).
@linkydoki My explanation for that is that eggman didn't bother to repair metal sonic after CD, and instead decided to make new robots to replace him. At the end of the day, the theory that tails helped sonic refine the spindash is purely my headcanon tho, so there probably are a lot of plot holes
When a dumbass makes a theory:
The Spindash thing is just a development oversight methinks. It wasn't originally meant to appear in cd but was added because of sonic 2. Amy's lack of inclusion in other games is also a development thing, since sonic cd was made by the half of sonic team that stayed in Japan after sonic 1. The team who also went on to create knuckles chaotix, explaining her inclusion there.
6:21 an interesting note is that Japanese manual says in Sonic 1 this isn't the first time Eggman and Sonic have interacted with each other
Thank you
SegaSonic the Hedgehog was their first meeting.
I don't think the Metal Sonic argument is the slam dunk a lot of people think it is. Sure, Metal might have the most hype around it, but he was also assisted my Eggman during his fight, not to mention that Metal was designed to race Sonic, whereas the Mechas were made to guard the Death Egg, and presumably Mk. II was made to absorb chaos energy. The mechas aren't designed as upgrades for Metal, they were designed for different purposes
Right, Metal Sonic was designed for racing and the Mechas were designed for fighting
There's also the fact that Eggman probably rushed Mecha Mk. I based off of the fact that the playable area in Death Egg Zone was pretty tiny, giving him no time to make a good enough robot to guard the Death Egg. Also, we know that Mecha Mk. II is almost as fast as Sonic even after all these years thanks to IDW
Not to mention the fact that Metal gets destroyed by running into a door, while you have to actively damage the Mecha models.
My thoughts exactly, they probably aren't the same line of robot
Finally someone who doesnt see them all as the same guy, jesus!!
6:21 Japanese Sonic 1 manual confirms that Eggman and Sonic have met before this. This is however their first time fighting for possession over the emeralds
they meet in segasonic arcade
It was also the first time Eggman employed the use of Badniks.
Cursed time tho ngl
>Japanese Sonic 1 manual confirms that Eggman and Sonic have met before this. This is however their first time fighting for possession over the emeralds
You're right. I'd honestly love a prequel game set BEFORE Sonic 1 about the first time Sonic and Eggman ever met each other and that game should be called Sonic Zero.
@@Rishi123456789 Honestly I would've prefer if they adapted US promotional comic storyline for a prequel game. Sonic and Eggman being friends long time ago creates such an interesting chemistry between them and explains why Eggman hates Sonic so much and why Sonic believes there is good in Eggman. Only instead of Eggman being corrupted by negative energy of Chaos Emeralds, he would simply reveal his true colors at certain point and force Sonic to end their friendship. I'm iffy on Eggman turning Sonic blue, but Sonic shoes being an Eggman invention and gift from him to hedgehog would be a nice touch as well (and tie into Sonic Labyrinth with Eggman being able to create a perfect copy of them).
Considering CD is a title focusing around time travel, it would make sense that, even as the first robot, Metal Sonic would be the best. Simply put, Robotnik has more time, starting his work in the Past, all the way up to the Future.
Finally! I thought I was the only one who remembered CD was a time travel game!
And Little Planet resources were probably unique to that place, so when metal was left in the planet and Eggman didn't have this rare resources anymore, he had to finish this new robotic sonics with other methods and eventually ended just coming back for metal
Way to voice my thoughts 😂
Yeah... let's see. Our two source options here are
1. The actual official source; SEGA.
2. A fanbase that is famous for infighting....
Yeah.... really hard choice here....
Sega is also the ones who said “classic sonic from gens was from another dimension” so 😂
@@naitsabes6222 At this point with the amount of retcons the current Sonic Team is doing to classic sonic it is for the better that he is from another dimension.
@@naitsabes6222And on the other side, we have a fanbase who can’t agree how many quill hairs he has (a bit exaggerated but you get my point)
@@naitsabes6222 they then retconned that again with the remaster of generations. They changed a few lines and if they wanted to make it consistent with the alternate universe stuff then they wouldn’t have changed a conversation between both versions of Tails to say:
“So… won’t all of this have an effect on the timeline?”
“Don’t think about it too hard.”
That's an either-or fallacy though. Just consider that there wasn't a consistent timeline back then and trying to make one only by ordering will be weak at best, which is what SEGA is mostly doing about it.
if i recall, wasn't the "see you next game!" screen featuring tails with that car- actually in reference to sonic drift? which was released after sonic CD?
would also explain well... the car xD
Sonic r
I would have assumed it was Sonic Crackers, which as you know was reworked into Knuckles' Chaotix; but I guess Sonic Drift works much better with the release order.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa yeah xD though man i wish we had gotten crackers- the overworld looked genuinely cool xD
It was definitely a reference to Sonic Drift. Other than it being green (instead of yellow) the car matches the one Tails uses in that game.
Well you are forgetting that sonic and Sega all star racing is after sonic cd too
I stand with the theory that Sonic CD is still placed between Sonic 1 and 2, but Metal is just quite literally from the future, Eggman simply doesn't know how to build him yet, but he manages to time travel and bring him back from another timeline.
This is what I exactly think
And if we count what happens in Sonic 4, metal sonic is left behind on Little Planet after being defeated by Sonic. The other robot sonic's that come after in Sonic 2/3 could be Eggman trying to replicate metal sonic on his own
This take is so random that I think it's awesome
This theory and the point about eggman trying to replicate metal are incredibly based takes and also way less complicated lol
i mean it could work,
what we see in the game is Present-Eggman using the Time Stones to travel to the future so he can send the robots to the past via the Robot Teleporters
I've heard a theory that states that CD happens between 1 and 2 _for Sonic_ but due to the time travel shenanigans of little planet it was some time after 3 & Knuckles _for Eggman_ which would explain Sonic's sprite and janky spindash while also letting Metal Sonic be the most advanced robotic copy of The Hedgehog chronologically
This is the theory with the most sense I heard all day!
This is the first time i've heard a theory about sonic cd ocurring between 1 and 2 having sense
Sonic CD Theory:
Sonic isn't a CD
gold
cdeez nuuuuuuuuuts
Metal Sonic isn’t actually made of metal.
Man, this reminds me what my friend said:
If Sonic CD is a CD, then it's not a video game, it's just a CD.
@@DLGanimator bro what are you doing here?!
people seem to forget that *metal sonic failed* in cd, just like how all the other robot sonics failed in their games. it makes perfect sense to me that eggman would abandon metal after that
Yeah, in a Sonic 4 cutscene it is shown that Eggman literally abandons Metal on Little Planet after he failed
@@tlst94 looks too much like the blue rat he wants to strangle
@@Positron001 LMAO
3:40 The whole plot of Sonic CD involves time travel with Eggman having control over the dark future so i always thought thats where Metal Sonic came from, it would explain why hes more advanced than the other sonic clones and why he doesnt show up in other classic sonic games, hes just from the future so he wasnt built yet.
That's actually a great explanation tbh. Because he doesn't make any kind of appearance outside stardust speedway bad future. Which is the only level that forces you in a bad future even if you made good futures in act 1 & 2.
Bruh if I recall correctly it's even stated that Future Eggman sends metal to the past to help his past self achieve world dominance faster in the damn official manual
There is also a theory that Metal would be the version of Sonic from this future that was defeated and roboticized by Eggman.@@shadowfan115
@@PauloH100 oh I know but the issue is even if that's the case what I said is still true
@@shadowfan115 But I'm not saying it isn't. It's just a theory that is complemented by what you said.
The thing with Eggman using worse versions of Metal Sonic is probably because Metal got trapped in Little Planet when Sonic freed it from Eggman's chains, so Eggman went to use the previous attempts of creating a robotic Sonic, thus why they are just pushovers.
"But Sonic 4 takes place after Knuckles' Chaotix, so how was Metal still in Little Planet even though he was used twice before it?" At this point, I don't even try to piece it together.
It begs the question of if 4 is even canon anymore, since it never got a definitive ending, little planet is referenced as being normal and not captured in modern media, and mania pretty much refused to reference it as "sonic 4"
Sonic cd THEORY 0:33
Nope, Chaotix has Metal Sonic.
THE METAL SONIC FROM CHAOTIX IS NOT THE OG METAL SONIC!!1 ENDL
For me, Chaotix is the true Sonic 4, even if it's not the best
Counterpoints to the Counterpoints
1. Tails and Sonic don't have to be together. While it is mildly out of character for them to not go on vacation together we see in the Adventure games among others that at least right now they live their own separate lives and can even go decent intervals of time without seeing each other.
2. We are reading way too far into this teaser image. Sonic 2 and CD were in development at the same time by two different teams. The Tails image was likely just them wanting to reference the character because they couldn't add him
3. Is actually pretty sound. Sega of America tends to add story elements that don't need to be there, and I mean we got an official mention of Tails Sky Patrol before Tails' Adventure
4.Yeah that's also fair, but I mean I explained half of them
Anyone want to counterpoint the counterpoints to the counterpoints, so on and so forth? Get into a counterpoint spiral of controversy and opinionated chaos.
@@foxtrap86flame sonic cd after adventure 1 because i am now sega and i say so
POINT 2!!!! I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS im shocked nobody mentioned how tails WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYABLE, it was meant to be sonic and tails, and this was confirmed after beta leaks,
@kyla_kylington Shit forgot about that.
Well, at the same time, this was like the 3 game in the series, and to my knowledge, 3 & Knuckles wasn't in development yet, so who's to say why Tails was cut, I mean sure it could be for story reasons but is that really in character for Sega to do?
@SSJacksWolf Riddle me this hot shot.
If cd takes place after Adventure, then why do the character designs go from Classic to Modern and then back to Classic
Nope
sonic and eggman DID NOT MEET in Sonic 1, that game's japanese manual confirm they had multiple encounters before the game's events occured
Retconned in Origins. And yeah, I don't particularly like the replacement of them literally not even properly meeting before the events of the game, he just sees the events and goes on to solve the crisis. It's lame.
@@MegaFan5 Then you should really go Sonic 1 to 06 or possibly Secret Rings. Unleashed caused like half the continuity issues(at least it was what felt like half until the current era caused a bunch more) because it was clearly intended as a soft reboot to get away from 06, before that was taken back later.
@@lpfan4491was it even retconned? The Sonic 1 opening cutscene in Origins doesn’t exactly have to mean that Sonic 1 was the very first time Sonic ever met Eggman period
@@gregtom3272 And I think SegaSonic the Hedgehog was one of those prior encounters.
@@jomaq9233 yeah at most it's the first time Eggman used animals to power his robots, which Sonic is shown to be surprised by in the Origins cutscene
I'm a firm believer of 1>CD>2 for a couple reasons:
1.)If we have to take in Gameplay mechanics, Sonic's Spindash in CD feels very different to the rest of the classic trilogy which can lead to the idea that Sonic hasn't "Figured out" how to use it the best until he meets Tails in 2(If we take that as canon) where he teaches Sonic the better method.
2.) Metal Sonic *did* match Sonic's speed, but he also crashes into a wall and falls apart easily. It's likely the Mecha Sonic line on the other hand was built with combating Sonic directly in mind rather than keeping up with him.
3.)Eggman created Metal Sonic on Little Planet which had the time stones and most likely very advanced technology. So when Sonic stops his plans, Eggman had to start from scratch and came up with the Mecha Lineage. As for why Mecha Sonic MK1's in 2, Let's not forget Sonic *stormed* the Death Egg which caught Eggman off guard and probably sent Mecha out in a panic to keep Sonic busy for a bit.
4.) This one's admittedly a stretch but Sonic 4 actually gives us a good reason why Metal wasn't used for a while. He was still on Little Planet when it went back up in it's natural orbit. Even taking in that S4 isn't canon, it's likely Eggman eventually retrieved him from LP and got him back up to pristine condition.
5.) Amy's absence can easily be explained. She wasn't able to keep up with him yet. It's not until Superstars where she manages to stay on Sonic's tail and even then they don't really see each other commonly until Adventure 1.
Back when sonic characters had their own lives instead of always being with sonic 24/7 😭
My theory is that Sonic CD is before Sonic 2, there’s WAYY more explanation for it to be before Sonic 2 than there is for it to not be, but also, here’s me tryna prove these theories wrong:
the fact that Metal Sonic is so much better than Eggmans other robots is likely because he spent all his money and parts on it, he no longer had the budget to make anything like metal sonic.
For Amy, she probably was just no mentioned in the games ever again because who knows.
For the spin dash, all I can think of is that Sonic got it from Tails by going to the future or he knew who to spin dash but his was a weaker version or something.
Sonic cd wasnt as popular as sonic 2 + amy never really showed up during the game so no one really cared about amy being in the games
Metal sonic was built to match Sonic’s speed using future technology, eggman built the mecha sonic robots to overpower sonic or to try to recreate metal sonic with more limited technology. The spin dash is weird in sonic cd because tails hasn’t taught sonic a better way to do it yet. “See you next game” is referring to sonic drift. Amy Isn’t in sonic 2 or 3 because she wasn’t needed until sonic adventure.
Finally someone with a concise, rational, and easy to justify explanation for such an obvious matter, thank you. The Devs did not mess up by putting CD before 2, it makes complete sense and does not need a ""death of the author"" fan ret-con.
Yeah in sonic adventure Amy mentions missing the good old days and references cd, so along of time has passed.
@Fax-Man1And Death of the Author is a poorer framework than considering the Author influences in the work.
Honestly I wonder what Little Planet was doing during games like Sonic Forces
It apears a month each year i think
It appears one month a year, so it's likely we were too early or too late to see it.
Little Planet litteraly leaves existence for 11 out of the 12 months of the year. So mostlikely it was just gone
@@Mr.MR2111Flying away from Earth≠leaving existence. You're confused by CD's bad ending showing it reappearing. That was Eggman's doing because he has the Time Stones in that ending.
It got blown up by the Metarex.
My theory is that I think Metal being absent during 2 could be explained as the robot simply being out of commission since it's battle against Sonic.
We know it's one of Eggman's crowning achievements so it may have taken a long time to repair such a complex machine. This complexity may have also been the reason for all the future 'Robo Sonics' being such duds as Metal may have been a "lightning in a bottle" moment for Eggman and he may have struggled to recreate his masterpiece, only coming close with Mecha Sonic.
@@toottootsonicwarrior5777 there's also the fact that according to sonic 4,metal was trapped in little planet, so any apparition of metal in a game that happens before sonic 4 could be a separate robot like metal sonic kai (from chaotix)
@@nicolasbernasconi7228 It's a huge shame we had to wait until Shard to have two Metal Sonics fight eachother in any media _(unless StC/Fleetway has something that I'm not aware of)_ when the material was right there in the games.
It could also just be way too much of a hassle to bother for most of the time
It's not like robotnik ever makes like an army of Metal Sonics even AFTER years after having moving on to more advanced plans
0:58 you could say the same thing about Attack on Titan fans 💪 King of Lore & Foreshadowing
An interesting theory: Sonic CD’s present time takes place between S1 and S2. The past time takes place before S1, and the future time takes place after S2
Although I respect the argument that states Metal Sonic should come later due to how much more successful he is compared to the other robot Sonics, I think there’s an easy way to explain why he was so much better:
Unlike the Mechas where he had to focus his efforts towards the Death Egg, Metal Sonic was his main weapon of conquest as he searched for the time zones. That means he got a bit more quality effort put into him instead of being a glorified side project.
Also, even if that isn’t the case it’s not like Eggman hasn’t gone backwards in terms of designing things before. I mean just compare The Death Egg Robot which he built very early in his career to the first boss of Sonic Colors. Just because something is newer doesn’t mean it’s gonna be better.
@@Marchers46
Thanks
I agree with everything you wrote here.
also, sonic cd is a time travel game, so eggman quite literally had all the time in the world to make metal sonic
He also downgraded E100s in sa2
I think that's easily explained for the E-1000's. They're a mass-production unit, or as Omega puts it, "worthless consumer models," in the same fashion as an Egg Pawn. Corners needed to be cut to make them easy to slap together.
Tails not being in CD post-S3 could be explained as just "Sonic went by himself." We know he goes on his own adventures (SA2, 06, Unleashed), his friends just usually happen to appear.
Also the "see you next game" could just be explained as an Easter egg like Batman Sonic or Fun is Infinite.
Of course that's an easter egg. It drives me crazy when people look at an easter egg and say "that definitely explains everything". If i create a Sonic game, and add a tiny easter egg about, i don't know, Superman, does that mean that Superman exists in Sonic world? No!
@@kuala3840 woman dude no need to get so mad over him calling an Easter egg and the batman and super man stuff
The manual you showed said that sonic was doing his super spin attack which means that could be the move he uses during sonic cd, bc it's slower than the sonic 2 spindash so maybe that was the move that tails improved and then sonic found a way to do it too.
I think a good way to handwave some of CD's odd inconsistencies are the game's wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey circumstances.
For instance, Little Planet's Past/Future stuff is all over the place. Some places are also very high-tech and fancy looking, with designs and setpieces we don't see outside of the planet. It's likely Dr. Eggman used the unique futuristic technology of Little Planet (specifically of the Good/Bad Futures) to build Metal Sonic, explaining why he's so superior to the Mecha Sonics that followed him. It also explains WHY Eggman seemingly went backwards in robot Sonic progress: without the awesome technology and such from Little Planet (which disappears by the end of CD along with Metal), Eggman's left with the same technology he was already using beforehand. So he chases that Metal Sonic bliss, iterating with the Mecha Sonics in an attempt to succeed and match what he had lost until he eventually reclaims Metal Sonic in Mania/4.
And as for Sonic's Spin Dash...notice how inferior it is to the Spin Dash we all know and love. Revving up in standard ball form, holding the button down to build momentum...it's likely that Sonic was just starting to learn how to Spin Dash, and took him a while to really perfect it, as we see with the much better handling version in 2 onward. (Easier control, leaning forward with that super fast rev...)
Simple as that!
I've always thought the Metal Sonic theory was silly. Just because fans generally think that Metal has a cooler design doesn't actually make him objectively a better robot. It also ignores the fact that Metal failed in CD, so why wouldn't Eggman try to make a different Sonic duplicate? I think he tried to make a robot based on Sonic's speed, saw that it didn't work, and then focused more on Sonic's combat abilitities with his newer robots. I can only speak for myself, but I found the fight with Mecha Sonic in 2 much more difficult than the fight with Metal in CD, which at least in my case makes him a more of a threat to Sonic.
Also, technically Sonic CD takes place before and after all other Sonic games.
THANK you!
No your wrong
"the metal sonic situation is insane"
So insane everytimes he appears police sirens start to go off
I might have an idea on why Tails is not in CD...
He had a cold and had to stay home
I think it was said that he was at some sort of science fair or smth. I forgot
@@Randododoebut the other one is better
HUH @@nathansos8480
@fw_Chr0me you must of watched a video from that UA-cam who I forgot his name.........LOL
Happy new year, yo🎉
1. Metal Sonic only appears in the future, so it could still be after the Mecha Sonics
2. Amy was on Little Planet, Sonic and Tails were on Mobius.
This is my honest opinion:
The placement of the game has been retconned several times.
Back in 2016 Sonic made an appearance in Lego dimensions and along with him Robo Sonic (or as he has been confirmed to be called now Mecha Sonic MK1) appeared, and Eggman said “My first creation to truly rival you.” Sure this game isn’t canon, but this doesn’t imply that when that crossover was developed SEGA was working off of the belief that the Robot Sonic from Sonic 2 was the first creation.
Then, once again in the non-canon but officially licensed Archie comics some of the final issues of the series was telling the event of sonic CD, and it is made explicitly clear that the Death Egg has already come and gone.
But then we also have cases like sonic origins where it is undeniably stated that the game takes place in between Sonic 1 & 2, and of course in sonic CD there is the iconic “see you next game”.
So I feel like no matter which side of the argument you’re on there’s evidence to support your headcanon. Personally, although I used to be in the camp that believed CD came after Sonic 3, I don’t mind CD taking place before Sonic 2. After all, there is something kind of neat about Metal Sonic being the first sonic robot, and despite several attempts to replicate his success, egg man could never quite make a perfect copy, which is why he’s bothered to keep metal sonic around, even after all of his failures and betrayals. There was just something special about him you can’t easily mass produce
@@MegaFan5
I think the scene in Origins overrules Sonic Adventure’s. The timeline was far less developed.
Besides, they both Achieved the same thing: Tails was depressed but meeting Sonic changed everything.
It’s just like how the Amy flashback isn’t consistent with Sonic CD but we understand what it is supposed to mean
@@MegaFan5 Sonic X IS NOT EVEN THE SAME CONTINUITY, it is not IDW, it is just another completely different continuity.
@@MegaFan5
There was never a point in sonic CD where sonic was carrying Amy while metal sonic was chasing them.
I would also bring up the fact they’re not even on little planet in the flashback, but I’ll give them a pass since that’s more of a saving assets thing, I’m also giving them a pass for the designs not being consistent. So I’m trying to give flashback as much leeway as I can, but simply it doesn’t lineup with sonic CD perfectly but you still get what it’s trying to convey.
The importance of the flashback is still intact even if it’s not 100% accurate
@@MegaFan5 Fair enough.
@@comicfan1324 By all accounts, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that it is Little Planet in the flashback. I know it was originally Windy Valley, but that version of the stage does not exist anymore, so there is no actual continuity oopsie through asset reuse in the final game.
People never think of the idea that Metal Sonic got left on Little Planet and Robotnik recovered him sometime in like Mania
That’s exactly what I’ve believed.
eggman recovered him in Sonic 4, infact.
The "See you next Game" screen is probably just a teaser for sonic drift
My theory is that Dr Robotnik created Metal Sonic using resources from the future during Sonic CD and once Sonic destroys Metal Sonic, every Mecha Sonic variant onwards is him slowly building up to the original version that he eventually builds post S3&K as the timelines would eventually link again, meaning he would be able to regain the resources he earned early via time travel
I have a crazier theory/headcanon.
Metal Sonic wasn't made by our Eggman. He came from a bad future where Eggman got Sonic robotized. He is Sonic. That's why Eggman hasn't been able to replicate him, and why Metal Sonic insist to be "the real Sonic" in Heroes.
WHAT?!?!?!
@@MegaFan5 haven't thought of that since Nega is a whole another mess in the canon, and I don't know if he's gotten to little planet. For the sake of consistency I'd say Metal Sonic was Sonic robotized by Eggman's machinery put in place on little planet's past and Eggman just found him in the future causing destruction.
But hey, if you can elaborate that headcanon throwing Rivals into the mix then do it, i love frraky headcanons
makes sense but he can also program robots with free will
Yeah I saw that video, too.
And afaik it is a sound theory and it's my personal headcanon, as well.
Robotization only really existed in American Sonic material. Which is why it makes no sense to me, especially since we should see more evidence of robotization, such as with other robotized animals.
metal sonic being in CD always made sense to me because hes from the future. you never fight metal in the present. it locks you to the good or bad future. After CD, eggman would then go on the experiment in the present making his own metal sonic in sonic 3&K
No, not at all. Eggman made metal, you just only race in the future.
He also travels from the bad future to the earth, so it's possible Stardust Speedway's future is actually the present
@@RedTHedge maybe
Neat train of thought, but every act 3 in cd is basically just boss act, and they are locked to the future in every level, presumably so you have to see which future you made.
@@RedTHedge my point still stands that you only see metal in the future. not to mention that many years later in sonic 4, metal sonic is still rotting in stardust speedway which would technically be the future. then you have to ask who the is metal from sonic heroes? maybe its one that eggman built after CD like in sonic 2 and 3&K
none of this really makes sense because if we go off of sonic 4's logic, there was a metal sonic in sonic heroes and sonic 4 at the same time which could still be possible but two metal sonics is crazy.
@@Izzythemaker127 but they're still in the future though.
plot twist: sonic cd never existed
Mindblowing
Then amy wouldn't be meeting sonic
Nor lil plante existing
Amy trolled us hard.
5:40 i personally think sonic developed his own version of the spindash after sonic 1 and tails tried replicating it out of his admiration for sonic, which explains the differences between the two
I like this theory
My Counter point : The ending cutscene of Sonic CD in Origins is where Sonic gets the tornado flying to West side island and flys past Amy because he doesn’t have time to pick her up
CD happening before 2 just makes so much sense when you also consider Sonic 3. Sonic 3 happens immediately after the events of Sonic 2 with the Death Egg crashing onto Angel Island and knocking it down to the ocean. How would Eggman be able to try to conquer Little Planet and go back to the crashed Death Egg on Angel Island after CD ends all without Knuckles noticing?
It does not make sense dude
Because cd is after 3 not 2? No one is arguing cd is after 2 lmao
@@lorenzo689 That makes no sense
Fr@@lorenzo689
@fr he is just yapping at this point SonicTheCutehog
I wouldn't take anything the US manuals from the Classic Games as true. Sonic CD's manual calls Amy Rose "Princess Sally" and the Knuckles Chaotix manual talks of things such as "The Power Emerald," and it also says Charmy Bee is 16 years old. It also says Vector is a devoted Christian, so the US manuals have many inconsistencies and shouldn't be taken as fact
The Charmy being 16 and Vector being religious was in the Japanese manual. The US Chaotix manual does not give a character bios.
@Cretaceous158 No, Charmy was listed as 6 in Japan. Translation errors caused the US to list him as 16.
@@Ollie.H-23 Here is a translation of Chaotix's jp character bio: "He was the first insect to cross the speed of sound, and he is so proud of it that he cannot keep quiet when he is denied. What's more, he is quite moody and mature in his words and actions. The self-proclaimed "fastest insect in the world", he flew to the island in search of new flowers."
@@Cretaceous158 and?
@@Ollie.H-23 Charmy is the opposite of his current version. Also here is a translation of Vector's JP character bio "An extremely cheerful and optimistic person. However, he actually has a stronger sense of camaraderie than anyone else, and has the strength and kindness to face any challenge. He believes in the existence of God, and comes to the island after hearing the news of an island of miracles."
I think people shouldn’t overcomplicate these things
it's kinda hard not to
Where's the fun in that?
That's booooooring
@@SonicEnthusiast-fst people just kind of have a hard time understanding is what I'm guessing. Sure it wouldn't be fun, but some people just have aren't great at processing
let people have discussions, they aren’t attacking you
"Metal can't come before Mecha because Metal is better" is kind of a stupid argument when you consider Eggman built Metal Sonic with access to alien resources (Little Planet) as well as future resources AND an indefinite time frame to build him due to the Time Stone we KNOW he had in his possession. Mecha Sonic comes AFTER Metal Sonic, and is worse than Metal Sonic because Eggman simply doesn't have the resources to rebuild Metal Sonic now. That's what makes Metal irreplaceable. That's why, canonically, there's only ONE Metal Sonic.
Also using the US instruction manual as an indication of canon is also not a great point. We all know how unreliable the localization was. Greg Martin literally gave Sonic a mohawk, we don't talk about it. Outside of the US manual, which was never canon to begin with, there is NO canon indication that Tails taught Sonic the spin dash.
eggman and sonic are said to know each other before sonic 1, and just because a character doesn’t appear in a certain game doesn’t mean they don’t exist yet. These characters are not attached at the hip besides maybe sonic and tails.
Sonic 1 > Sonic CD > Sonic 2 > Sonic 3 and Knuckles > Sonic Generations ( Past) Sonic Mania > Sonic Forces ( Past) > Sonic Superstars.
Wait, that means Sonic always goes through Forces twice. I’ve given up trying to understand how that doesn’t cause anything bad
The thing about the spindash that everyone seems to forget when talking about this topic is that knuckles can do it too, and I doubt tails would teach it to him
Maybe the spindash is some technique that's passed down from generations and tails possibly researched it and learned it, while sonic, seemingly being an orphan, never learned how to do it properly, resulting in the weird spindash in cd.
Or it's just a gameplay mechanic that's been retconned as sonic always being able to do it lol
I've got a lot to say about the "Sonic CD takes place after Sonic 3" evidence, because I am a strong believer in Sonic CD taking place in between Sonic 1 and 2.
My reason for Metal Sonic being so much better than the Mecha Sonics and being a regression is mostly just that Eggman tried redoing Metal Sonic's likeness, but trying to give more to him failed overall. Eggman tried doing Metal Sonic, giving him more battle capabilities, but is overall more bulky, meaning the abilities could be used.
Then Mecha Sonic Mk. II was realized, using the power of the Master Emerald to go super and thought that would be enough, but he made it moreso as a sequel to Mecha Sonic; a Mark II, if you will, and just built off what was already there, meaning it was still quite bulky and didn't do much unless powered up. Then Eggman just decided that Metal Sonic was good enough and decided to reuse him for everything else and added some more things to that.
Heck, other people and companies have done the same thing in real life, like Crash Bandicoot's series. Tried something original with Wrath of Cortex, then with Twinsanity, both didn't capture the exact things that made Crash 1-3 fun, and after many years of trial and error, went back to Crash 4.
It's happened with Sonic, too. Like how they tried doing the same Classic Sonic Physics as Sonic Mania and Generations in Sonic Forces, couldn't do it correctly, and then just went back to using Mania's physics straight from the code, and even adding the Emerald Powers as the new thing.
And as for Amy not appearing in Sonic 2 and 3, everyone in the series says "Long time no see" to Sonic for a reason; Sonic is a drifter that just runs away after a job's done. These characters have their own lives, and usually only get together when stuff is going DOWN (or, at least before games like Colors, Forces, and the Comics, where they seem to always be together).
And according to Sonic Origins, Sonic used a plane to get to Westside Island, and I don't think Amy has any resources to get her there; she's meant to represent the common folk in the early days.
And as for the Spin Dash thing about Tails teaching it to Sonic; Tails' Adventure only has him unlock that when he has an item with Sonic's face on it, which could imply that Sonic was the one who created the Spin Dash, but Tails is the one who pefected it and taught THAT to Sonic.
Sonic CD is the game that Sonic learned the Super Peel-Out in, and considering it and the Spin-Dash are so much similar in CD, Sonic could've figured things out (he's not stupid; he knows how to fly a plane and utilize his speed in unique ways, he could probably think of the Spin-Dash as well).
And if Tails DID teach Sonic the Spin-Dash before Sonic CD, why is it so much worse? Maybe Sonic could've thought he could improve it, but just couldn't? Maybe, but it's kinda unlikely.
Even then, Sonic CD's manual in English calls Amy "Princess Sally", so I don't think they should be fully trusted.
That's just my own addition to these thoughts.
Honestly, I still wonder how Amy even got to Prison Island in SA2. The same way Chris did in Sonix X or what? xD
@@lpfan4491cuase she’s an adventurer lol and stubborn
Yeah I miss when all of these guys had things and had their own separate lives , but in the 2010s there alwyas with sonic. 😂
This is such a good take
I'm trusting CD being after Sonic 1 mainly due to Sonic Team working harder to keep Sonic's lore consistent, what with hiring a lore manager and retconning Classic Sonic to be past Sonic rather than an alternate universe Sonic. Still, this theory is pretty interesting to think about! Great job on the video!
so to Counterpoints to the Evidences:
- the confusion mainly came from Ken Balough who was infamous for basically not giving a crap about the franchise.
- *the Manual Evidence:* the CD Manual mixes up Amy & Sally Acorn, because SatAM just came out, that's also why she shows up in Spinball.
- *"Metal Sonic is the most Advanced, Eggman would never downgrade"* two issues with that one:
1- No, he really isn't. At least not in CD; he can't tell Amy & Sonic apart, it crashed into a wall & broke, which is why Robo Sonic is so heavily armored. And then you have Mecha Sonic that can use the Chaos Emerald energy, which is something Metal couldn't do until Eggman Retrofitted him in Heroes. Most of Metal Sonic's achievements come from the OVA.
2- Egmman has downgraded his robots before, with the most recent example being Forces where he prioritized mass production over style
- *Amy doesn't show up in 2 & 3+K:* Sonic has a plane, Amy doesn't. Is just that simple, each of the 4 games take place at a different island & we see Sonic leave before Amy can actually see where he went at the end of CD
- *the Tails Easter Egg:* both games were in development at the same time & took separate approaches to the same Design Document (as seen with the SpinDash, but also HillTop & Emerald Hill being part of the scrapped Time travel), so yeah the Easter Egg could only have been a Sonic 2 reference, otherwise it would have been Knuckles.
As to why CD came out so late... most likely TOEI's animated cutscenes
I'm pretty sure the teaser "see you next game" was referring to sonic drift since...it has a car. That or it's just a joke, keep in mind this is the same game that gave us mario face sonic and batman sonic. Amy not being present in sonic 2 and 3 feels like a moot point. The ending animation to origins showing us amy with the gang implying she joined with them at some point AFTER CD. I think Sonic origins retcons this same thing with the spin dash.
At the time saying tails taught him the spindash was a cool idea to try incoperate gameplay with the story. But in other media such as sonic prime. It's implied sonic always knew the spindash and to a bigger extent the dropdash.
In terms of Metal Sonic and Eggman using seeds instead of animals in CD, I saw a theory around that Metal Sonic was built by Eggman in the future in Little Planet so he had more access to more improved tech. Since he couldn't go back to Little Planet at the time, he had to make crappier Sonic copies. And the seeds could also be just Eggman experimenting with Little Planet resources, possibly in the future too.
Think you could make a video about if alcohol exists in the sonic universe
wat
Rooptop run. No need to explain further
The drunk hobo in sonic adventure 1 no need to explain further
The Sonic Manga had a whole chapter about Tails getting drunk at Casino Night zone after knocking back a whole bottle of champagne (that was stuffed into a bunny girl's cleavage, incidentally) losing all his rings gambling, then beating up some random guy for more gambling money.
I swear I'm not making this up.
From what I remember is. didn't sonic meet tails after 1 and the reason why sonic visited little planet was because tails told him of the mysterious planet that appears once a year over a specific lake so sonic goes to see if its true then learns that Eggman has chained it down. All this before sonic 2
My head canon is that after metal Sonic's defeat, he was trapped in a bad future, and if you played Sonic 4 episode 2 episode metal, you will know that, and that would explain why metal sonic isn't in 2 or 3 and knuckles.
Fans forget something very simple. Sonic CD and 2 were being developed by two entirely different teams SIMULTANEOUSLY. It wasn't meant to be in a timeline. Sega of America and Japan just couldn't agree on anything, so we got 2 games.
“See You Next Game” isnt at the end of the game! It’s a secret image from the sound test that Judy Totoya made in reference to the fact that tails would be making an appearance in S3K. Not lore!
The CD devs didn't know Sonic 3&K would be made. It's a reference to Sonic 2. Judy Toyota AKA Yasushi Yamaguchi confirmed this himself.
After Metal fell, his chip was lost in the city… only to be found 2 or so years later in Sonic 4. In between those points Eggman tried replicating and possibly surpassing the original Metal Sonic experimenting with more whatever the fuck he was doing with Silver Sonic, bulkiness (Mecha Sonic MKI) and agility (Mecha Sonic MKII) and I also believe during that point he remade the shell but couldn’t perfect the coding to be exact, explaining his appearances in Sonic the Fighters and Triple Trouble and Chaotix… that’s my head canonical explanation of that plot hole.
7:41 But here's a problem, sonic the hedgehog 4 has an episode about metal sonic, which is canonically a continuation of sonic cd from the perspective of metal sonic.
Yeah, and that explains why metal wasnt in 2 or 3&k
"Tails invented the spindash according to the US instruction manual. This is canon."
>The US instruction manual
>Canon
I was tempted to stop watching right there.
"He can use the spindash in his spinoff game"
By using the SONIC item.
I always imagine the reason why there are robotic Sonics that are not as good as metal Sonic is because Eggman didn’t have enough time and budget for a proper one. (For example in Sonic 2 he was doing the whole “death egg” thing.)
11:24 Izuka is known to be inconsistent
When asked why the moon was intact in *Shadow* after it was blown in half in *SA2* he said “it rotated” which the moon cannot do
When asked about Sonic & Blaze not addressing each other in *Sonic 06* after meeting in *Rush* he said “they all had amnesia”
When asked about the Earth situation, he said ‘there are two Earths. One with people, one with animals. And sometimes they crossover’. Seriously, what the heck
a fucking planetary crossover is definitely insane
I think the reason Tails isn't with Sonic in CD is because he was on his own adventure in Tails' Skypatrol, which is proven to be Canon by the IDW comics.
As for "See you next game" thing, it is most likely a hint that Tails is going to be in the next upcoming Sonic game at the time, which would be Sonic 3, a game that came out a year later after CD
>canon
>IDW
Yikes. With that being said, I DO like and subscribe to this theory, as Tails being in Sky Patrol to justify his absence was the first thing that came to mind as well.
The Tails "See you next game" is referring to Sonic Drift, which is why Tails has a car.
Am I missing something here? Nowhere in that scan you just posted suggests that Tails taught Sonic how to spindash, it's literally the other way around.
And there's NOTHING that states Silver Sonic and Mecha Sonic Mk. II are weaker than Metal Sonic in his CD iteration, especially when Mecha was one of few to be able to control chaos energy as much as Sonic and co. could at that point, and even acquire a super form, that's just weak reasoning.
10:05 I read the whole passage and nowhere does it say Tails taught Sonic how to Spin Dash. The move Tails is doing in the final paragraph is the rolling technique from Sonic 1.
CD and 1 guy. But with Sonic The Hedgehog 2 Spin Dash and the remasters
the truth of the matter is simple, CD was probably getting worked on around the same time as sonic 2 which meant that they probably just headbutted the spindash in the game and also why its using the sonic 1 model instead of the improved sonic 2 model and also why tails wasn't added in the game.
Between 1 and 2.
Metal Sonic doesn’t mean anything. He was simply built to (out)match Sonic’s speed so he’d get caught in the Stardust Speedway trap. Which failed.
The other badnik Sonics (Mecha Sonic MK I and II) were built with the purpose of defending an area.
All of them have different design and function philosophies, and all are generally successful at them. They have no bearing on a timeline, except the Mecha Sonics, where one naturally is the literal successor to the other.
Or maybe sonic team just… didn’t care… I understand it’s not as fun as speculation but I feel like putting more time in a thing that not even the original developers thought about seems a bit pointless
If metal sonic is "better" than the other robots than why does eggman replace him for a shitty boss that takes 4 hits. In fact the only time metal does something other than kidnapping is in the future, after eggman improves him... I think I know my theory is dumb but still
lol the old US manuals aren't canon. Unless you believe that Amy is Sally Acorn, Sonic lives in Mobius, and his speed comes from his shoes.
Tails did not fucking invent the spindash.
Seethe and cope
@@Fazimusalt1 🙄
I think CD is between 1 and 2 because CD levels look like 1's levels.
No it doesn't like did you forget sonic cd is a time travel game
And it's not a good reason
@@kenishachisholm5692 damn somebody wasn't loved as a kid 😬
@@VXA1PSTART I guess that explains your childhood then
I hate to spoil the fun, but none of this would have happened if SEGA of Japan and SEGA of America never split apart to make their own sequels to Sonic 1 in the first place.
Sonic 1's japanese manual says eggman meet the sonic several times before sonic 1 and US manuals isn't canon japanese manuals ate canon. US manuals changes so much.
Metal isn't "more advanced than Mecha." One is a duplicate of Sonic and another is a big Sonic-themed droid. They serve different purposes. Developers are just coming up with characters for a given game. Just because they're not referenced in a later game doesn't throw the entire timeline into question. Nothing everything is a "plot hole."
US manuals barely know what they're talking about. Sonic didn't learn to roll into a ball from Tails. He's a hedgehog smfh, he rolls into a ball. It's interesting that you reference Tails Adventures taking place before Sonic 1 when the US manual actually places it after Sonic 2, which is another mistake. Lastly, Sonic 1 isn't the first time Sonic met Eggman. The Japanese manual indicates that they've been rivals for a while.
Naoto Ohshima intended for it to be the CD version of Sonic 1, so it's definitely closer to that than after Sonic 2. It entered development before Sonic 2 and they coordinated with the Sonic 2 team. Artist Yasushi Yamaguchi also felt that it took place between the two well before Origins placed it there.
And when does Sonic 4 take place? Metal's shown still left at Stardust Speedway after CD as if he hasn't been in a tonne of Classic and Modern games since then. Episode Metal's clearly a rushed afterthought that we shouldn't overthink. It even says in Episode Metal that a long time has passed, so there's no concrete reason not to take the release order for Sonic 4. It's a nothing story, seriously.
There is a way to explain Metal Sonic. The robots seen in 2 and 3 are the prototypes for Metal and since Metal Sonic was badly damaged in Sonic CD, since both 2 and 3 happen right after CD, Eggman didn’t have a lot of time to fix Metal Sonic and resorted to using the prototypes.
Mechas aren’t prototypes as they function completely differently
Metal was originally made to race
And the mechas were meant to fight
1:27 What's the name of the music in the intro?
It's just a remix soly for the channel
Here's an idea. Maybe Metal Sonic took Eggman a long time to make so he decided it'd be easier to just wait until Little Planet comes back around next year, rather than completely rebuilding Metal from the ground up.
Cant wait for more content from this channel!
God why cant sega just give us a cohesive timeline
Sonic CD has always been one of my favourites but thats just my opinion :D
The Sonic OVA Movie Actually Backs Up This Theory Since It's A Sonic CD Movie
The only part of the movie that makes it a sonic cd movie is metal sonic
It's only vaguely CD-related.
Also why do you type like that
@@MegaFan5 Planet Freedom is just a loose adaptation of Sonic's world. It is very inaccurate, but they did get a bunch of old concept art for things like Knuckles having sunglasses.
@@MegaFan5 Angel Island is one of very few large floating landforms. There are no flying continents in Sonic's current world.
@@MegaFan5 In unleashed the planet was shattered, it isn't normally like that. And the continents were definitely inhabited since they were regions that were just separated. Considering that it's confirmed humans just live in larger containers while the animals live in smaller islands (that AREN'T floating), it can't be the same.
I am definitely a 1 > CD > 2 person, and I can explain Metal's existence. Now, I did read some comments saying how he built to just race Sonic, but another comment, which is relevant to what I'm going to say, is that he's from the future. Now, they said that Eggman brought him from the future, but what I'm thinking is that an Eggman, from a different timeline (aka the bad future timeline), actually sent his Metal Sonic to the past, in order to aid his past self. That's just my headcanon, but there is more.
The reason why Metal isn't present in future titles until Chaotix is because, and I believe this was from a UA-camr I've watched, Metal was stuck on Little Planet, which is why the Mecha robot line exists: Eggman is trying to replicate Metal in some way, either waiting for Little Planet to come back, or until he can perfectly remake him (which could explain his ability to be able to use chaos energy in things like IDW or, technically, Mania's animated shorts here on UA-cam)
There is one thing that everyone forgets about Sonic CD: Is about Time Travel. Sonic faces metal sonic in the FUTURE (all bosses zones are in the future). And there is the time stones. Even the spin dash can be explained of him (from the present), gaining part of the memories from the future timeline. The same goes for eggman. So after the events, metal sonic is destroyed in the future, and eggman re-recreates him only when he suceeds with the advanced technologies of him (probably in Knuckles Chaotix).
And I guess the sonic mania Doesnt happens in the main timeline. After S3k is sonic 4 in the main. But after generations in the mania time line, after S3k is mania. (But I like to think that the mania timeline was supposed to be the american sonic from the famous Sonic bible, in the planet mobius and etc).
sanic teh hegezhogs!!
Do you know speaking of the sonic timeline? Does anyone have any idea what the deal with the Phantom Ruby is?
Sonic mania truly takes place in the main timeline then why doesn’t modern sonic and modern egg man already know what the ruby is? Why doesn’t sonic remember being transported to a future where Eggman conquered the world?
Did prolong exposure to the Phantom Ruby erase their memory of it, kind of like how the ruby erased Eggman’s memory at the end of Sonic Forces as revealed in sonic IDW? If that’s the case, it’s real convenient that it didn’t erase their memory, but just this one rock.
they could have forgeted it either way, between Mania and forces, there was many events with extremely maximum danger and alot of experimentations from Eggman, it is not impossible that they forgot.
@@MegaFan5 what?no it does not, Classic Sonic is just past sonic.
No it does fucking not@@MegaFan5
@@MegaFan5 Mania is in the main timeline, while Encore is the main timeline where Sonic doesn't go to Forces, and Adventures is the timeline after Generations that he did.
@@Sonic2024freedomera
OK, and how do you explain sonic forgetting the time he travel to the future where egg man conquered the world, and he had to team up with his future self and a red wolf to save the world? especially since the bumble cast claims the entire series takes place within about a year and a half that’s a pretty big thing to forget
The canon timeline is between 1 and 2
Case closed
I think the notion that Tails invented the Spindash is a misunderstanding of what that text actually said.
It claims Tails learned how tuck into a spinning ball *while running* (Something Sonic can do in Sonic 1). The Spindash starts from a stationary position, not the 'running start' that Tails gave himself.
I think the text was just trying to emphasise that he eventually learned how to copy Sonic's pre-existing spin technique. I feel like the wording would be different if it was implying that feat was a new thing entirely.
Couple of things: Tails is present in CD's soundtrack room, flying the Tornado and the "See you next game" was in reference to Sonic Drift on the Game Gear rather than Sonic 2...I think. Both of these could support CD happening after 2 and combine with Adventure 1 starting Tails off living alone despite still being in Sonic's shadow (making it possible for Sonic to have gone on adventures without him even before Tails became more confident).
On the other hand, CD and 2 were made at the same time, so inconsistencies with Metal likely stem from that rather than lore (because Silver is DEFINITELY a prototype). Although not intentional, this is supported by Eggman making Omega but never doing anything with it (unless Rouge's guess that Omega was meant to keep Metal from scanning the real Shadow is correct). Eggman may have made the perfect Sonic duplicate on his first try, but slept on his own creation in favor of new ones (apparently, ones that can Spin Dash).
When the evidence is so strong on both sides, I opt for what Sega says and figure Amy was too slow to keep up with and find Sonic after he left South Island (assuming CD takes place on the same island as Sonic 1) and settled in Station Square until Adventure.
Awesome video! Can you do a Sonic Colors Theory like with the Wisps? A mystery with them needs solving. What do the Wisps do while they're inside Sonic's tummy? Why do they only go into him through his tummy? And what makes them so tired they fall asleep inside him like they did in Sonic Lost World when he doesn't use their power?
I always thought they were kind of just going into Sonic's own inner headspace, but the specific part of his body that they fly into is his heart. Since the ending theme song of Colors is called Speak With Your Heart. But that's just me i guess lol
The Wisps go into his tummy. In Sonic Colors, DS Sonic even says that it tickles when they go inside him.
6:22 Eggman did know Sonic before Sonic 1, though. In the manual, there's a quote from Eggman along the lines of, "Sonic, that blasted hedgehog. He always foils my plans!" This implies that they have met at least once before.
CHAOMIX I HAVE AN AGE THEORY, SO YOU KNOW HOW DUMB PEOPLE WILL SAY “sonic is 15 blah blah blah their young” BUT THATS NOT TRUE CUZ IN SONIC CD LIL PLANET PASSES EVERY YEAR ONCE A MONTH SO IN MANIA LIL PLANET IS BACK SO A YEAR PASSED AND SONIC 4 ITS BACK AGAIN LIKE IM PRETTY SURE THEIR MUCH OLDER SO PEOPLE WHO SAY PRIME SONIC MAKES SENSE ARE WRONG CUZ HE AINT YOUNG MODERN SONIC PROBABLY ALREADY
18 or older
Sonic ages in some sort of sine function. He started off 18, then he was 15 in Sonic 2, then he was 16 in Sonic Jam, then he was 15 in Adventure.
@@Cretaceous158 lmao this comment is gold
@@Cretaceous158 I thought he was 14 for the adventures games
@@kenishachisholm5692 He was 15 in adventure 1.
@@Cretaceous158 oh I never knew that but in sonic jam he is 16 honestly this doesn't makes sense
Well I always figured that the "see you next game" teaser was supposed to be meant for the next game released after CD, which was sonic 3, where tails appeared in, and not meaning "see you next game" chronologically referring to sonic 2.
I'm convinced it's taking place between 1 and 2, even before they made it canon.
Looking at it from the development side, obviously both teams had the idea that Sonic shall be able to spindash to move faster in a protected form.
Looking at it from story wise, I'd say Sonic obviously came up with it himself and still tried to adapt to how he can make it even better for himself.
It's like how he becomes faster and faster each game and these days doesn't even need to transform to defeat older final bosses.
The REAL DEFINITIVE answer is the creators of these games DID NOT CARE. They just wanted to make cool momentum based platformers guys it ain’t that deep.