I'm sorry.I'm a huge fan of this story.This was the first Doctor who's story ever come out on home video and it was one of my favorites.I watched this every now and then when i'm feeling very blue
I agree with you about Ian Marter. My favourite part of the whole story is where Harry can't remember what the Cybermen - the second big monster in Doctor Who no less - are called because he's "terrible with names" - hilarious but so understated that I never even noticed it until something like my fifth viewing.
I totally agree. The concept of the Cybermen is so beguiling, it promises so much more than the series has ever delivered with them. I remember being quite disappointed by this story at the end of an otherwise mostly really enjoyable series.
I think the main issues with this story can be summarised as these two: 1. It was *advertised* as the long-awaited return of the Cybermen, but was *written* as if they were still an ongoing concern in the show (thereby leaving any newer viewers potentially unaware they were returning at all). 2. Even an average story would suffer from being placed amongst some of the most popular ones of all time, but for a story this subpar to be in the same season as both _The Ark in Space_ and _Genesis of the Daleks_ (and the same year as _Terror of the Zygons_ and _Pyramids of Mars)_ just makes that effect even more pronounced.
This was my introduction to the Cybermen and enjoyed it as a small child but I was quite shocked when I returned to it as an adult to find it is very wobbly. I think it opens well and had the potential to be a strong story with the setting and very strong cast.
I do say the original script for this Cyberstory is on cd and produced by Big Finish and I have two copies of it and it is awesome to listen to in billions of ways.
My family had a Beta video, in 1983. Like the UK release, this was an early 80's video release in the US,....not as expensive as the UK video was! I got this video, and one for The Avengers (1967) at same time. When the surviving Sixties WHO was offered for broadcast on our PBS stations (like 17 Hartnell, only 5 Troughton) in 1985-'86 -there were no complete Cybermen stories in that package. Only the clip of a Cyber in the last bit of The War Games. I saw the Cyb's against the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th....then "Tomb" was returned in 1992! And the JN-T "Years tapes" , linked "Invasion" -we now have audio cd, animated complete stories....back in the 80's, one had Target novels.
100% agree on the cybermen. I think they've always stuck out to me as iconic, whether in concept or design, but not utilised well on screen. The closest we've come to perfect is Spare Parts, and the closest we get to that isn't until Capaldi (and even then it's heavily compromised) It's a shame really, since as you said, the concept is fascinating. Even in their best on screen story in classic who, they aren't the reason the story is memorable, it's Adric's death that gets remembered I think the key is fear. We are supposed to be horrified and fearful of them, but we so often just aren't. Whether it's stupid catchphrases like "delete" or being perennial jobbers, we just don't find them intimidating anymore. We need a story like spare parts or even like dalek, but for the cybermen The less we say about cyberwoman the better
I agree that this isn't an all-time classic, and with the wasted potential of the Cybermen, but I still have a soft spot for this one, not least as it is my birth story (I was born on the day that Part 4 went out). I agree with the poster who singled out Jeremy Wilkin, and he played a similarly detestable sneaky character in the first episode of Blake's 7. The human guest cast are largely solid even if unspectacular, and the acting talent on the side of the Vogans is impressive, even if they didn't necessarily find a way to shine. I do find the existence of factions within the Vogan society made them more believable as characters rather than 'monsters', though. The Cybermen *look* good, their first appearance in colour, and the head-mounted guns are cool, but, yes, if only the Hinchcliffe/Holmes Gothic/body horror aesthetic had kicked in this early, imagine what could have been done with an enemy who can make you into more of themselves.
My problem watching this (back in the days, aged 7) was that I'd never encountered them before and there was no backstory. Pertwee never encountered them and I was puzzled as to who they were supposed to be.
I rather like this one but, of course, it has it's faults, and average stories really struggle in this era of mostly absolute classics! Yes, the Cybermen here really are "just another villain who could have been anyone" but other elements are ok. Highlight for me simply has to be Jeremy Wilkins superbly slimy Kellman!
It's not good,but,I still have a soft spot for it as it's 1st one I have clear/definite memories of (It was the very 1st story issued on vhs I think too)🎩
I like Genesis of the Daleks more, but Revenge of the Cybermen is a fun, entertaining run around. The soundtrack is half weird, and half awesome (I think the Cyberman theme has potential). There's lots of running, fun escapes, interesting action sequences. The film sequences on Voga strike me as atmospheric. I like the sequence where the Doctor and two other characters are wired up with explosives, I actually think that's a pretty tense set up with a lot of establishing how trapped the characters are in that situation. The Cybermen are generic, it's true, but their theme music helps make them a bit ominous in my opinion.
You're spot on vis a vis Daleks v Cybermen - Daleks are always compelling, even in weak stories. Cybermen, on the other hand, are a strong idea that was quickly run into the ground due to lack of rights to the Daleks, they aren't even the most compelling and interesting things in their own stories; they're not even the most compelling villain in The Invasion as you point out, and Revenge of the Cybermen feels like a story designed to show how shoddy and crap they are. No wonder they don't show up again for years after this, they really do bring nothing to the table!
@@jameswhitaker12 I really think they could have been which makes it all the more frustrating to me that they ended up just being Big Metal Baddies too many times
@@chris_stokes I agree! Which is why it's so funny that after every poor Cyberman story you see people complaining that they were done a disservice = that's been true since 1966!
Hey Chris great video as always. This channel has become a real comfort watch for me. I’m not a big fan of this story Quick preemptive question that might’ve been asked and answered: but will you be covering Shada in the marathon or as part of the extended media? Thanks!
@@scotth4598 Thanks Scott, that's really nice to hear. Great question about Shada and pretty well timed since I made the plan for it yesterday! I'm going to cover all the different versions of Shada (including the McGann one) like a glance at expanded media but at the end of Season 17 where it would have gone if it had been broadcast.
@@chris_stokes Can I ask, what about Trial of a Timelord? Will you be reviewing it as one whole episode, or as four episodes? Or four sections of one story?
This is the first in a long line of stories not to utilise the Cybermen’s core concept. Even though Attack and Silver Nemesis both depict cyber conversion to an extent, neither story focuses on it thematically. Attack of the Cybermen and Revelation of the Daleks should have swapped plots.
Here we are. The first times I watched the Revenge of the Cybermen (I believe 14 years ago) I remember really enjoying it, but I knew this episode wasn't looked upon favourably by most fans. I also wasn't that wowed by the Ark in Space when I first watched it, contrary to conventional wisdom. So, I recently rewatched the Nerva Beacon episodes. I'll admit that my views on the Ark in Space greatly improved, as its hard not to love the wittiness of Bob Holmes' scripts. However, my views remained stubbourn regarding the Revenge of the Cybermen. On the whole I find this a pacey episode and on a basic level the stakes keep increasing throughout to keep me hooked ('virus on a space station with a rat on board- Sarah gets poisoned and is beamed down onto a planet as a cure but- civil war breaks out on the planet- meanwhile Cybermen invade the Beacon- etc, etc). So, the tension keeps building, and even though I've watched it many times I couldn't help but feel engaged this time around. However, for me the real highlight of this episode is the Volgans themselves. I'm actually a fan of the design that went into the Volgans and their chambers and the use of the caves to depict their world. But I actually find the political conflict compelling. Vorus actually stands out as a political troublemaker from most other Doctor Who episodes. Many political upstarts have little agenda or philosophy other than power for power's sake. That's not always a bad thing (it depends on the context of the episode), but that can be bland and repetitive. However, Vorus isn't that- and actually he is a complex character. Although, Vorus wanted power he wanted it only as a means to an end, not as an end in itself. He is definitely a villain, given his callousness towards Sarah Jane and Harry; however we can sympathise with his aim, especially in the context of the Show's values at this point. If we consider the Peladonian Tales, Vorus is actually the progressive who is campaigning hard against the backward policies of Volga. He wants to break away from the isolationist policy, and is genuinely saddened by his people literally being kept in the dark. Even though Tyrum is supposedly a 'good guy,' he has more in common with the villainous High Priest of Peladon from the Curse of Peladon in his philosophy and goals. And why didn't Tyrum simply use the rocket to destroy the Beacon at the first chance? At that moment Tyrum, not Vorus was risking the safety of his people. Yes, it could have been to give the Doctor a chance to save Sarah, but it might also have been to prevent Vorus' plans from succeeding, which would've given Vorus the upper hand in the trial/public debate. However, despite Vorus' goals being sympathetic, it doesn't mean that I sympathise or agree with his plan, which nearly brought Volga to the point of destruction (and he helped cause a civil war, although Tyrum was equally responsible in my opinion). I think this gives the episode an extra level of depth. The first time I watched the episode I really enjoyed the twist and turns with Kellman's loyalties (which has similarities with Lytton in the Attack of the Cybermen), but now I've seen this extra complexity to the episode (The Volgan Politics)- which just goes to show how you can keep rewatching the same exact episode and see different layers- hence you're doing this marathon. Nevertheless, I will admit that I did notice quite a few flaws in this episode, however for me these were minor flaws which didn't derail this episode. This is definitely not Genesis of the Daleks, nor is it Earthshock. I understand your displeasure with this episode, and I just wanted to share why I find enjoyment in this serial. I also want to say that I agree that the Cybermen have sadly not reached their full potential on the TV screen (Revenge of the Cybermen doesn't improve their image, however I think Gerry Davis wanted to present them as dangerous in desperation, which gives them a different flavour from previous appearances, just like how Robert Holmes presented a different side of the Master in the Deadly Assassin, by showing him as deadly in desperation). It saddens me, as from my early days as a fan the Cybermen and the Sontarans were my two favourite monsters, but now having watched most of their appearances I think neither of them have been fully realised. However, I think its sadder in the case of the Cybermen since they've had more appearances, and they've been presented as the rivals to the Daleks- whereas the Sontarans haven't had that same pressure to be as popular/threatening as the Daleks. I also think when humans started getting turned into Daleks (from 1985 onwards) that it took away one of the unique differences between the Cybermen and the Daleks. Personally, my favourite Cyberman story is, "The Flood," (2005) which is a comic strip story with the Eighth Doctor. I am actually a big fan though of the 80s Cybermen. Even though the 80s Cybermen can get a bit emotional at times, overall I think it must be said that they are: "Excellent."
Nice review. I look forward to your reviews on Season 13. I just watched the Seeds of Doom yesterday and that is such a stella episode! If I'm honest I think it even rivals Genesis of the Daleks! But I think Genesis of the Daleks just edges it. Just. I think Harrison Chase actually has a lot of similarities with Davros on some basic levels.
I'm doing my own marathon (though I have raced ahead of you now! I'm on Talons at the moment) and this time I found Genesis to be overrated and Revenge not as bad as I remembered it! Revenge is a bit tedious but it is watchable compared to some of the upcoming stories. I quite like the idea of the down-at-heel Cybermen still thinking they are superior. The leader's accent is a bit odd though, don't you think? Like an Englishman trying to put on an American voice.
Yeah, I agree. I like the Cybermen being presented as fighting from a position of weakness; with survival as the prime objective; as the Cybermen are still very nasty in this story, because they are desperate. I think that approach has worked more effectively for the Master- as the Deadly Assassin marked a big change for the Master's MO, no longer was he the suave, handsome manipulator- but he was a husk of his former self. The original Master had master plans to set alien races against each other's throats and his ambition was to rule the universe. In the Deadly Assassin he is the type of villain who would kill his own Grandma so he can just live for an extra minute! And I like that both sides of the Master were carried forward. I really liked that desperate side of the Master who is fighting for his survival at any cost in episodes like: The Keeper of Traken (1981), The Planet of Fire (1984), Survival (1989) and the End of Time (2009-10). Sadly, I don't think that Survival-Master worked as well in the Doctor Who Movie, as I think that motive was too narrow a drive for the plot for what was a pilot/reboot/launch.
I enjoyed the first episode but the rest was poor. I agree with your opinion on this. It's been a mixed season. This one and Robot weren't great, the Sontaron Experiment was pretty good and the Ark in Space and Genesis of the Daleks were both very good.
Good to see you back, Chris. I much prefer Cybermen to Daleks as a creation, but I'm with you on how weak this story turns out to be after such a good opening episode. And those cyber voices!? They are truly terrible!
The Cybermen were not well used in this story, and they were better in Earthshock and the Cybermen in the 10th Planet to the Wheel in space were awesome in billions of ways,
There were rumours the series 12 stories were originally commissioned for the 3rd Doctor and were handed over, for the 4th Doctor . I wonder how well series 12 would have worked if Jon Pertwee had remained the Doctor beyond series 11, and also how Jon Pertwee would have got on with Philip Hinchcliffe as the producer and also would Harry have ever appeared in Dr Who.
I think it's more accurate to say they were commissioned not knowing who the new Doctor would be, so the only template the writers really had for "how to write the Doctor", or indeed how to write the show as a whole, was the whichever one(s) they'd already written for or recently seen. So John Lucarotti's draft of "Ark" came out "too 1960s", because that was the era of the show he'd written for before; Bob&Dave wrote for the Doctor they were familiar with (Pertwee); and so on. And Bob Holmes, overseeing the scripts, knew which direction he wanted to push the show, but not how the new lead actor would turn out. So... [SHRUG] Writers for other first seasons of a new Doctor face the same problem; But as time goes on, you have more past Doctors to look to for inspiration. (And of course the access to those past eras, to actually watch some previous stuff and get the feel of the show and the character, increased dramatically from the late '70s onward.)
I always thought of Revenge of the Cybermen as an episode with a negative reputation but when I did my review I was surprised how many people came out defending it
I think of this story as a light, amusing palette-cleanser preparing us for the moist lushiousness of "Terror of the Zygons"... Which of course was originally meant to start immediately the following week (and run for 6 parts). =:o} It's a real shame the decision to shift Season 13 forward to start in September - which necessitated shortening Season 12 - wasn't made soon enough for GotD and RotC to be swapped around. But with the strongly serialised approach to Season 12 and thus the elements of the transmat & Time Ring replacing the absent TARDIS in GotD (and the notorious difficulty of getting timely re-writes, or even just approval for rewrites by the script editor, from Terry Nation!), this wasn't possible at such a late stage of production. It's also a shame that Robert Holmes - who had to majorly re-work Gerry Davis's original scripts - didn't have time to dig a bit more into the Cybermen's origins and realise how right up his street as they *could* be: He always loved body horror, and themes of possession and de-humanisation, so I'm sure if a Cyberman story had been commissioned by him & Philip for season 13, rather than by Terrance and Barry for season 12, he would have been able to work with Gerry to develop something closer to the calibre of GotD.
This is a story lot in the shadow of the titan that is Genesis. It was always going to seem a poorer effort. You should look into some of the supposedly cursed happenings surrounding the filming of the story. That said, the guest cast does solid work, and I was always thrilled to revisit Nerva Beacon when I first say this story. As to the Cybermen themselves, another reviewer once pointed something our similar to your note: Somewhere in the 70s the Daleks and Cybermen got swapped origins. Daleks were suddenly logic driven machines incapable of making decisions without computers or Davros directing them. Meanwhile, the Cybermen became more and more emotional showing genuine hatred and as you say emphasis in their speech.
Although I have vague memories of the Invasion, 1975 saw my first proper Cyberman story and sorry I loved it. we got the cyber leader with the black ear muffs for the first time. I really like the guns in the head. The regulars were perfect, Nerva was back. To this day the climax of episode 2 is one of my favourite cliffhangers. And this is my favourite Carey Blyton soundtrack. My favourite parts are the location scenes in Wookey Hole Caves which give it added gloss. I can absolutely see why I probably shouldn’t like it and I agree the 80s Cybermen are weak and not much better in Nu Who. Sadly the season is cut short when Zygons is shunted to the start of season 13 and we have the dreadful news of the death of William Hartnell.
I mostly can't forgive this story for misusing Kevin Stoney so badly... The Wookey Hole location is nice, and the design isn't bad, but the soundtrack, cybermen behavior, plot, and everything is pretty poor. It doesn't help that Tom's Doctor basically doesn't respect them at all.
Dicks and Holmes both disliked the Cybermen which is probably why not a bunch of attention was given to this. Having to use the same sets, set up by Letts and scrapping the casino in space script, made it better than it cold have been. Still one of the weaker stories in the first 3 years of Baker. The TARDIS trio keeps it above the weakest in the Baker era.
I'm sorry.I'm a huge fan of this story.This was the first Doctor who's story ever come out on home video and it was one of my favorites.I watched this every now and then when i'm feeling very blue
I agree with you about Ian Marter. My favourite part of the whole story is where Harry can't remember what the Cybermen - the second big monster in Doctor Who no less - are called because he's "terrible with names" - hilarious but so understated that I never even noticed it until something like my fifth viewing.
I think this one is a bit of guilty pleasure for me I just find it fun and it's nice to a fun light story in this horror era.
Agreed, I like it as well!
I totally agree. The concept of the Cybermen is so beguiling, it promises so much more than the series has ever delivered with them. I remember being quite disappointed by this story at the end of an otherwise mostly really enjoyable series.
I think the main issues with this story can be summarised as these two:
1. It was *advertised* as the long-awaited return of the Cybermen, but was *written* as if they were still an ongoing concern in the show (thereby leaving any newer viewers potentially unaware they were returning at all).
2. Even an average story would suffer from being placed amongst some of the most popular ones of all time, but for a story this subpar to be in the same season as both _The Ark in Space_ and _Genesis of the Daleks_ (and the same year as _Terror of the Zygons_ and _Pyramids of Mars)_ just makes that effect even more pronounced.
This was my introduction to the Cybermen and enjoyed it as a small child but I was quite shocked when I returned to it as an adult to find it is very wobbly. I think it opens well and had the potential to be a strong story with the setting and very strong cast.
I do say the original script for this Cyberstory is on cd and produced by Big Finish and I have two copies of it and it is awesome to listen to in billions of ways.
My family had a Beta video, in 1983. Like the UK release, this was an early 80's video release in the US,....not as expensive as the UK video was! I got this video, and one for The Avengers (1967) at same time. When the surviving Sixties WHO was offered for broadcast on our PBS stations (like 17 Hartnell, only 5 Troughton) in 1985-'86 -there were no complete Cybermen stories in that package. Only the clip of a Cyber in the last bit of The War Games. I saw the Cyb's against the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th....then "Tomb" was returned in 1992! And the JN-T "Years tapes" , linked "Invasion" -we now have audio cd, animated complete stories....back in the 80's, one had Target novels.
100% agree on the cybermen. I think they've always stuck out to me as iconic, whether in concept or design, but not utilised well on screen. The closest we've come to perfect is Spare Parts, and the closest we get to that isn't until Capaldi (and even then it's heavily compromised)
It's a shame really, since as you said, the concept is fascinating. Even in their best on screen story in classic who, they aren't the reason the story is memorable, it's Adric's death that gets remembered
I think the key is fear. We are supposed to be horrified and fearful of them, but we so often just aren't. Whether it's stupid catchphrases like "delete" or being perennial jobbers, we just don't find them intimidating anymore. We need a story like spare parts or even like dalek, but for the cybermen
The less we say about cyberwoman the better
I agree that this isn't an all-time classic, and with the wasted potential of the Cybermen, but I still have a soft spot for this one, not least as it is my birth story (I was born on the day that Part 4 went out). I agree with the poster who singled out Jeremy Wilkin, and he played a similarly detestable sneaky character in the first episode of Blake's 7. The human guest cast are largely solid even if unspectacular, and the acting talent on the side of the Vogans is impressive, even if they didn't necessarily find a way to shine. I do find the existence of factions within the Vogan society made them more believable as characters rather than 'monsters', though. The Cybermen *look* good, their first appearance in colour, and the head-mounted guns are cool, but, yes, if only the Hinchcliffe/Holmes Gothic/body horror aesthetic had kicked in this early, imagine what could have been done with an enemy who can make you into more of themselves.
My problem watching this (back in the days, aged 7) was that I'd never encountered them before and there was no backstory. Pertwee never encountered them and I was puzzled as to who they were supposed to be.
I rather like this one but, of course, it has it's faults, and average stories really struggle in this era of mostly absolute classics!
Yes, the Cybermen here really are "just another villain who could have been anyone" but other elements are ok. Highlight for me simply has to be Jeremy Wilkins superbly slimy Kellman!
Not only was it about 7 years since last Cybermen story...it'd be a similar distance to next one🎩
It's not good,but,I still have a soft spot for it as it's 1st one I have clear/definite memories of (It was the very 1st story issued on vhs I think too)🎩
I like Genesis of the Daleks more, but Revenge of the Cybermen is a fun, entertaining run around. The soundtrack is half weird, and half awesome (I think the Cyberman theme has potential). There's lots of running, fun escapes, interesting action sequences. The film sequences on Voga strike me as atmospheric. I like the sequence where the Doctor and two other characters are wired up with explosives, I actually think that's a pretty tense set up with a lot of establishing how trapped the characters are in that situation. The Cybermen are generic, it's true, but their theme music helps make them a bit ominous in my opinion.
You're spot on vis a vis Daleks v Cybermen - Daleks are always compelling, even in weak stories. Cybermen, on the other hand, are a strong idea that was quickly run into the ground due to lack of rights to the Daleks, they aren't even the most compelling and interesting things in their own stories; they're not even the most compelling villain in The Invasion as you point out, and Revenge of the Cybermen feels like a story designed to show how shoddy and crap they are. No wonder they don't show up again for years after this, they really do bring nothing to the table!
@@jameswhitaker12 I really think they could have been which makes it all the more frustrating to me that they ended up just being Big Metal Baddies too many times
@@chris_stokes I agree! Which is why it's so funny that after every poor Cyberman story you see people complaining that they were done a disservice = that's been true since 1966!
Hey Chris great video as always. This channel has become a real comfort watch for me. I’m not a big fan of this story
Quick preemptive question that might’ve been asked and answered: but will you be covering Shada in the marathon or as part of the extended media?
Thanks!
@@scotth4598 Thanks Scott, that's really nice to hear. Great question about Shada and pretty well timed since I made the plan for it yesterday! I'm going to cover all the different versions of Shada (including the McGann one) like a glance at expanded media but at the end of Season 17 where it would have gone if it had been broadcast.
@@chris_stokes Can I ask, what about Trial of a Timelord? Will you be reviewing it as one whole episode, or as four episodes? Or four sections of one story?
@@chris_stokesAwesome. Thanks man!
@@GenATV33It’s fourteen episodes, not four.
This is the first in a long line of stories not to utilise the Cybermen’s core concept. Even though Attack and Silver Nemesis both depict cyber conversion to an extent, neither story focuses on it thematically. Attack of the Cybermen and Revelation of the Daleks should have swapped plots.
Here we are.
The first times I watched the Revenge of the Cybermen (I believe 14 years ago) I remember really enjoying it, but I knew this episode wasn't looked upon favourably by most fans. I also wasn't that wowed by the Ark in Space when I first watched it, contrary to conventional wisdom. So, I recently rewatched the Nerva Beacon episodes. I'll admit that my views on the Ark in Space greatly improved, as its hard not to love the wittiness of Bob Holmes' scripts. However, my views remained stubbourn regarding the Revenge of the Cybermen. On the whole I find this a pacey episode and on a basic level the stakes keep increasing throughout to keep me hooked ('virus on a space station with a rat on board- Sarah gets poisoned and is beamed down onto a planet as a cure but- civil war breaks out on the planet- meanwhile Cybermen invade the Beacon- etc, etc). So, the tension keeps building, and even though I've watched it many times I couldn't help but feel engaged this time around. However, for me the real highlight of this episode is the Volgans themselves. I'm actually a fan of the design that went into the Volgans and their chambers and the use of the caves to depict their world. But I actually find the political conflict compelling. Vorus actually stands out as a political troublemaker from most other Doctor Who episodes. Many political upstarts have little agenda or philosophy other than power for power's sake. That's not always a bad thing (it depends on the context of the episode), but that can be bland and repetitive. However, Vorus isn't that- and actually he is a complex character. Although, Vorus wanted power he wanted it only as a means to an end, not as an end in itself. He is definitely a villain, given his callousness towards Sarah Jane and Harry; however we can sympathise with his aim, especially in the context of the Show's values at this point. If we consider the Peladonian Tales, Vorus is actually the progressive who is campaigning hard against the backward policies of Volga. He wants to break away from the isolationist policy, and is genuinely saddened by his people literally being kept in the dark. Even though Tyrum is supposedly a 'good guy,' he has more in common with the villainous High Priest of Peladon from the Curse of Peladon in his philosophy and goals. And why didn't Tyrum simply use the rocket to destroy the Beacon at the first chance? At that moment Tyrum, not Vorus was risking the safety of his people. Yes, it could have been to give the Doctor a chance to save Sarah, but it might also have been to prevent Vorus' plans from succeeding, which would've given Vorus the upper hand in the trial/public debate. However, despite Vorus' goals being sympathetic, it doesn't mean that I sympathise or agree with his plan, which nearly brought Volga to the point of destruction (and he helped cause a civil war, although Tyrum was equally responsible in my opinion). I think this gives the episode an extra level of depth. The first time I watched the episode I really enjoyed the twist and turns with Kellman's loyalties (which has similarities with Lytton in the Attack of the Cybermen), but now I've seen this extra complexity to the episode (The Volgan Politics)- which just goes to show how you can keep rewatching the same exact episode and see different layers- hence you're doing this marathon. Nevertheless, I will admit that I did notice quite a few flaws in this episode, however for me these were minor flaws which didn't derail this episode. This is definitely not Genesis of the Daleks, nor is it Earthshock. I understand your displeasure with this episode, and I just wanted to share why I find enjoyment in this serial.
I also want to say that I agree that the Cybermen have sadly not reached their full potential on the TV screen (Revenge of the Cybermen doesn't improve their image, however I think Gerry Davis wanted to present them as dangerous in desperation, which gives them a different flavour from previous appearances, just like how Robert Holmes presented a different side of the Master in the Deadly Assassin, by showing him as deadly in desperation). It saddens me, as from my early days as a fan the Cybermen and the Sontarans were my two favourite monsters, but now having watched most of their appearances I think neither of them have been fully realised. However, I think its sadder in the case of the Cybermen since they've had more appearances, and they've been presented as the rivals to the Daleks- whereas the Sontarans haven't had that same pressure to be as popular/threatening as the Daleks. I also think when humans started getting turned into Daleks (from 1985 onwards) that it took away one of the unique differences between the Cybermen and the Daleks. Personally, my favourite Cyberman story is, "The Flood," (2005) which is a comic strip story with the Eighth Doctor. I am actually a big fan though of the 80s Cybermen. Even though the 80s Cybermen can get a bit emotional at times, overall I think it must be said that they are:
"Excellent."
story*; stories*; Vogans*; Vogan*; Voga*
Nice review. I look forward to your reviews on Season 13. I just watched the Seeds of Doom yesterday and that is such a stella episode! If I'm honest I think it even rivals Genesis of the Daleks! But I think Genesis of the Daleks just edges it. Just. I think Harrison Chase actually has a lot of similarities with Davros on some basic levels.
story*; _The Seeds of Doom*_
Revenge of the cyber men is actually alright but genesis of the daleks can’t be topped and it shows
I'm doing my own marathon (though I have raced ahead of you now! I'm on Talons at the moment) and this time I found Genesis to be overrated and Revenge not as bad as I remembered it! Revenge is a bit tedious but it is watchable compared to some of the upcoming stories. I quite like the idea of the down-at-heel Cybermen still thinking they are superior. The leader's accent is a bit odd though, don't you think? Like an Englishman trying to put on an American voice.
Yeah, I agree. I like the Cybermen being presented as fighting from a position of weakness; with survival as the prime objective; as the Cybermen are still very nasty in this story, because they are desperate. I think that approach has worked more effectively for the Master- as the Deadly Assassin marked a big change for the Master's MO, no longer was he the suave, handsome manipulator- but he was a husk of his former self. The original Master had master plans to set alien races against each other's throats and his ambition was to rule the universe. In the Deadly Assassin he is the type of villain who would kill his own Grandma so he can just live for an extra minute! And I like that both sides of the Master were carried forward. I really liked that desperate side of the Master who is fighting for his survival at any cost in episodes like: The Keeper of Traken (1981), The Planet of Fire (1984), Survival (1989) and the End of Time (2009-10). Sadly, I don't think that Survival-Master worked as well in the Doctor Who Movie, as I think that motive was too narrow a drive for the plot for what was a pilot/reboot/launch.
I enjoyed the first episode but the rest was poor. I agree with your opinion on this. It's been a mixed season. This one and Robot weren't great, the Sontaron Experiment was pretty good and the Ark in Space and Genesis of the Daleks were both very good.
Shame Harry never got a Tardis interior scene...though there are reasons why-no Tardis in some stories-he could have had one in his bookends stories 🎩
I actually liked this one. It was in fact one of the first Baker stories I watched.
Good to see you back, Chris. I much prefer Cybermen to Daleks as a creation, but I'm with you on how weak this story turns out to be after such a good opening episode. And those cyber voices!? They are truly terrible!
The Cybermen were not well used in this story, and they were better in Earthshock and the Cybermen in the 10th Planet to the Wheel in space were awesome in billions of ways,
There were rumours the series 12 stories were originally commissioned for the 3rd Doctor and were handed over, for the 4th Doctor . I wonder how well series 12 would have worked if Jon Pertwee had remained the Doctor beyond series 11, and also how Jon Pertwee would have got on with Philip Hinchcliffe as the producer and also would Harry have ever appeared in Dr Who.
I think it's more accurate to say they were commissioned not knowing who the new Doctor would be, so the only template the writers really had for "how to write the Doctor", or indeed how to write the show as a whole, was the whichever one(s) they'd already written for or recently seen. So John Lucarotti's draft of "Ark" came out "too 1960s", because that was the era of the show he'd written for before; Bob&Dave wrote for the Doctor they were familiar with (Pertwee); and so on. And Bob Holmes, overseeing the scripts, knew which direction he wanted to push the show, but not how the new lead actor would turn out. So... [SHRUG]
Writers for other first seasons of a new Doctor face the same problem; But as time goes on, you have more past Doctors to look to for inspiration. (And of course the access to those past eras, to actually watch some previous stuff and get the feel of the show and the character, increased dramatically from the late '70s onward.)
Jon Pertwee was definitely never under consideration for being in Series 12, given that he had been dead for 23 years by that point!
I think revenge of the Cybermen is better than genesis of the daleks and that is my own opinion
I always thought of Revenge of the Cybermen as an episode with a negative reputation but when I did my review I was surprised how many people came out defending it
a story*
@DrWhoFanJ well yeah, technically 4 episodes
@ Not technically. It *is* four episodes.
I think of this story as a light, amusing palette-cleanser preparing us for the moist lushiousness of "Terror of the Zygons"... Which of course was originally meant to start immediately the following week (and run for 6 parts). =:o}
It's a real shame the decision to shift Season 13 forward to start in September - which necessitated shortening Season 12 - wasn't made soon enough for GotD and RotC to be swapped around. But with the strongly serialised approach to Season 12 and thus the elements of the transmat & Time Ring replacing the absent TARDIS in GotD (and the notorious difficulty of getting timely re-writes, or even just approval for rewrites by the script editor, from Terry Nation!), this wasn't possible at such a late stage of production.
It's also a shame that Robert Holmes - who had to majorly re-work Gerry Davis's original scripts - didn't have time to dig a bit more into the Cybermen's origins and realise how right up his street as they *could* be: He always loved body horror, and themes of possession and de-humanisation, so I'm sure if a Cyberman story had been commissioned by him & Philip for season 13, rather than by Terrance and Barry for season 12, he would have been able to work with Gerry to develop something closer to the calibre of GotD.
This is a story lot in the shadow of the titan that is Genesis. It was always going to seem a poorer effort. You should look into some of the supposedly cursed happenings surrounding the filming of the story.
That said, the guest cast does solid work, and I was always thrilled to revisit Nerva Beacon when I first say this story.
As to the Cybermen themselves, another reviewer once pointed something our similar to your note: Somewhere in the 70s the Daleks and Cybermen got swapped origins. Daleks were suddenly logic driven machines incapable of making decisions without computers or Davros directing them. Meanwhile, the Cybermen became more and more emotional showing genuine hatred and as you say emphasis in their speech.
You're dead wrong
Although I have vague memories of the Invasion, 1975 saw my first proper Cyberman story and sorry I loved it. we got the cyber leader with the black ear muffs for the first time. I really like the guns in the head. The regulars were perfect, Nerva was back. To this day the climax of episode 2 is one of my favourite cliffhangers. And this is my favourite Carey Blyton soundtrack. My favourite parts are the location scenes in Wookey Hole Caves which give it added gloss. I can absolutely see why I probably shouldn’t like it and I agree the 80s Cybermen are weak and not much better in Nu Who. Sadly the season is cut short when Zygons is shunted to the start of season 13 and we have the dreadful news of the death of William Hartnell.
I mostly can't forgive this story for misusing Kevin Stoney so badly...
The Wookey Hole location is nice, and the design isn't bad, but the soundtrack, cybermen behavior, plot, and everything is pretty poor. It doesn't help that Tom's Doctor basically doesn't respect them at all.
Dicks and Holmes both disliked the Cybermen which is probably why not a bunch of attention was given to this. Having to use the same sets, set up by Letts and scrapping the casino in space script, made it better than it cold have been. Still one of the weaker stories in the first 3 years of Baker. The TARDIS trio keeps it above the weakest in the Baker era.