How can dissociation develop from attachment?
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- In this video from The CTAD Clinic, Dr Mike Lloyd (Clinic Director) discusses research evidence looking at the link between attachment (disorganised) and dissociation. It is important to note that many children raised within difficult environments are not traumatised and do not become dissociative, though where an adult is dissociative, this is one way of understanding how this process can occur in a context that appears to lack significant (obvious) trauma.
The research evidence is cited in: Dell, P. & O'Neill, J. (2009), "Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders"; Routledge.
The main chapter under discussion is written by Giovanni Liotti, M.D. "Attachment and Dissociation" pp53-65, citing Main & Hesse (1990) and Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz (1999)
#attachment #trauma #dissociation
Apologies for the background noise in this video!
Thank you for another great video! My heart breaks for every baby, infant and child that cries out to be comforted and instead feels scared, alone and confused. Trying to break the trauma cycle as a parent is such hard, but important work.
The more I learn of these very early childhood impacts, the more I wonder that there's anyone normal out there. It seems like the standard required of parents is very very high, it's a bit scary that even behavior that isn't visibly malicious can have such an effect.
See the thing is we have to use a system that works for the child's need rather than the adults. If you are welcoming and comforting when your children is seeking it, then you allow them to explore the world "on their own" (not like totally alone meaning you dont have to be exploring with them) and after a while the child will come back to mom for reassurance again. It's a cycle that if done right is very rewarding for everyone.
I think the exact same thing! I am a parent now myself and absolutely terrified of unintentionally traumatising or damaging my daughter
I thought that I was the only one! I was thinking the same thing.
@@ceterisparibus8966 It’s also possible that this is how we develop extra sensitivity’s that can be very beneficial later in life, if we learn to listen to our instincts/internal voice. Bit of a double edged sword.
*fright without solution* - spot on!
I have been trying to process what disorganized attachment means for a while now. I knew that being left as a baby until 6 months old to be withdrawn from drugs in an orphanage before being adopted out had obviously caused damage, but didn't fully notice until I became a mother myself and I had my daughter attached to me in a baby wrap like an African Mumma ALL the time, and yet didn't fully realise that felt so important to do . Also, my old dr used to often say I suffered from chronic neglect as a child and I could never understand him as I was adopted into an old money family so I never experienced any neglect as they were extremely wealthy. It took a long time to learn that he meant I suffered chronic neglect, as in they were never emotionally caring or supportive in any way. That caused all the damage. I used to ask him "how come some other people can suffer the exact same abuse as I did as in r***d as a three-year-old and they will end up being okay? He pointed out that the family would have loved and supported them through that trauma and that because I didn't get the love and support my mind fractured. So I am on a journey of learning that the real deep trauma is everything around my disorganised attachment. So thank you so much for this video as it is all adding to making sense of what I am trying to learn and process.
You are welcome, Jasmine, I am so glad this video can help a little towards your understanding. Good luck in being you!
Man, these descriptions of an emotionally unstable caregiver are hitting spot-on for me...
Thank you so much for these videos, doctor. Livign in a third world country with OSDD is really difficult, as good information is scarce and the stigma rampant. What you do means a lot to me!
You are very welcome
Thank you, Dr. Mike!
What a great way to describe my personal understanding of my dissociative disorder!
Another great video Dr. Mike please keep them coming.
This was an awesome video! I had never thought about this!
This was very interesting. Thank you.
This rings very true in our family. Thank you for sharing this topic Dr Mike! 💜
Incredible. I look forwards to learning more.
Very helpful and informative as usual, thank you for this video!
Wow, that would explain a lot... thanks !
Great video. I'm intrigued as to your take on this:- I have DID, and was born 3 months premature (in 1996). I had to be in an incubator for the first 4 months of my life and because of being very ill at times the nurses couldn't allow my parents to hold me, (I believe my parents had and still have unresolved trauma). I know that it's highly likely I learned to dissociate whilst a few months old as nurses wouldn't have been immediately there and couldn't self-soothe. I have been in freeze mode most of my childhood. Do you know of any info or research about premature babies and dissociation? Is there an age limit for indirect behaviour being enough to cause dissociation?
Thanks, Ash, for your personal insights. While I can't really comment on specifics, we are aware of dissociation from very, very early on, though research in this field is nearly impossible to do under controlled settings, for obvious reasons, We rely a lot on personal commentary to learn from as we go along, helping us to ask the right questions..
This was my story, too. I am an identical twin and when we were born we were three lbs each. My sister and I were separated and she put in an incubator as she was slightly smaller than me. My mother, although a nursing student at that hospital, was not allowed to be with us for at least a month for me and maybe longer for my sister. I wonder what could have been the result to me for not having my twin or my mother for that period of time? Hmmm…
I would love to suggest to you - the work of dr Peter Levine. His approach is dealing with trauma from the somatic experience point of view. I believe you will find his work interesting and helpful in understanding the trauma caused to you as an infant. Cheers.
This is part of my story too. Born at 26 weeks, lost my twin, was in special care for 5 months and mother didn’t actually see me for days after my birth because she was so unwell herself. I often wonder what groundwork was laid back then, in terms of everything I have to deal with now. I went on to struggle through childhood with lots of other trauma but the very early days do make me think.
Thank you for this video. It’s the inescapable situation that I was born into that really does a number of me. It took me until I was 22 when I was finally able to escape and run away from my abusive family.
I really appreciate all of your vids, and have recommended them to others on my channel. I also appreciate all the citations that appeared onscreen too!
you are welcome!
Thank you dr. Mike. This all fits so well. It is a big help for me to Watch your video’s. You tell things in Words That are easy to understand. You’re a great help.
Fright without solution - Yes! This explains sooo much toward our DID & the age of our youngest alter, especially having been told of the “direct threat behaviors” surrounding feedings & diaper changes. Thank you! ❤️
You are welcome!
Excellent explanation, thank you so much. I'm trying to figure out where my trauma reactions come from in my current relationship and this made some things click for me.
Very good breakdown withhold pinning blame anywhere
Thank you for the video! ☀️🙏
Yes this....explains so much. Thank you for sharing this knowledge with us in words we can understand. - Sebastian -
You are welcome!
Quite accurately describe my childhood experience, thank you for the discussion over this topic.
Helpful as always.
Thank you for this video. 🙏
You are most welcome, Jacinta!
@7:50, thanks for adding that. I was asking that very question (struggling still, despite all the evidence, to trust that I parented as well as I believed I did in the first 3.5 years of my child's life), how did I manage given what a mess I still was? And thank you for this video. I wrote something in response but saved it somewhere else. But the words @3:41 and everything you've said since is *exactly* describing my experience and an intense flashback I had once (decades ago) under less than ideal circumstances.
I studied Ainsworth and Bowlby's work in the mid 90s. I'm not sure if the source (of what I'm about to mention) was from the aforementioned, or from others in the field, but I felt so thrilled with some information I found at that time (because it indicated a lot of hope for children who get consistent secondary care, even if primary caregivers are extremely problematic). And also very happy with the grade and comments I got on the term paper at that time, for a class called "Infants, Toddlers & Caregiver's". [It was so strange to feel a bit of healthy pride in that accomplishment.]
And I was just wondering how I managed to be a good enough mother to my only child. I can forget that studied, a lot, for many years. [Not at the time actually planning to be a mother, but simply very interested in the topics and in learning the best we know about optimal care of developing humans. I was interested in possibly working in child care or education at that time.] But my concern that has lingered has been due to the fact that knowledge does not always take precedence in actions and behaviors, and I guess I worry (still) that I messed up and did not honor my child's needs as well as I wanted to, as well as needed, and as well as I tend to believe I did. I was fortunate that my child communicated with me (before teenaged, lol) and said things I cannot forget that make it clear that I was attuned enough, available and seen as reliable support.
I am very lucky considering i was homeschooled and underwent sibling abuse that i had caring friends outside of that sphere who i started turning to for emotional reassurance in my mid teens. I am also extremely lucky that my younger sibling (whom my mom used as a pawn to maintain her control) got friends outside of the sphere of control as well and decided to reinvent themself. I see my friend still being set upon by their mom and pawn sibling in adulthood and i realise that ive been very lucky with that. My sibling is a new person but still incites some distress when i see them because my body remembers. My mom is still a distressing figure but at least i recognise that she is still a child and has been all this time.... lol
Gonna start introducing ourself as a series of theories lmao 😆
That’s very poetic!
Described the self as "an almagamtion of talking heads in transit" before, kinda similar lol
...describing my early childhood. I tear up... Thank for uploading.
Thank you.
You are welcome!
I had a parent who believed you control your children with fear. I was in so much emotional turmoil as a kid and felt lost and alone bc I had nobody to turn to for comfort bc if i seeked comfort it would be met with anger.
That sounds awful for you.
@@thectadclinic luckily I'm an ANP so I really dont suffer like some other parts do, but it has definitely affected my systems ability to function well in daily life. Just started IFS therapy like 4 sessions ago so I'm hoping it will help.
Hi Mike Do you have a video on PNES Cramps? Thank you for your videos. Marianne
Mine was the perfect storm to develop DID. Disorganized attache t with scary mom and dad emotionally detached with Asperger's. I had Noone. My youngest alter is just a month or two old. Thanks for the video, Doc Mike.
Would this also apply for neglect, if a parent had been perceived to ‘abandon’ the child and then caregivers were often changing?
No reason why not, neglect is a huge part of attachment trauma, whether a person has been in care or not.
This make me sad for my children because I know they witnessed my dissociation and “mood swings” as I thought my parts were back then. I hate to think that this harmed them in any way.
My daughter is now a young adult and a wonderful, strong, self-assured young woman. She does have some dr/dp from time to time, probably brought on by a series of traumatic events, I would imagine that growing up with a dissociative mother contributed.
Are there levels of dissociation? for example I dont remember much of my childhood but as an adult i am aware I had a "work"/aquaintance level me vs the person I was on the inside and how i responded to relationships outside of a controlled (rule based) environment (so any social interctions and relationships - my dating history is a disaster of repeated trauma). I remember what i did as "work" me, but it was something that i stepped into each day to survive (be the dandelion) and it felt safe because it was based on a structure and certain "rules". If people i knew from work had ever seen the "home" me - they would not have believed it or recognised me at all... over time in doing this i got to a point where i guess my work/home personalities became so polarised that i broke.... is this DID or something else?
Thx
Curious as to how to observe dissociation in infants….what it might look like.
I do have a question! I went to read the papers on this and found the following:
"Within this “disorganized” group, the higher dissociation scores, reaching clinical significance, characterized the subgroup that had faced traumas during childhood and adolescence (the difference between the mean dissociation score of the disorganized subgroup that faced later trauma and those of the disorganized subgroup that did not face trauma was statistically significant)."
I did not have anything traumatising (such as getting hit, assaulted, etc). Do things that the child perceives as painful (such as knowing your parent is ignoring you or feeling nervous admitting to wrong doings due to parent rage) be enough? If you're not comfortable replying to this type of question, that's totally fine! I just figured I'd take my shot!
That's the thing about trauma, it isn't just the actual event/s, it's the perceived experience and impact, which can be short or long term. Everyone is different.
@@thectadclinic Thank you so much for the reply! It helps a lot 💜
In what ways does is this differ from a maladaptive attachment caused by something other than a parent’s unresolved trauma?
Also, let’s say, a mother has several children, and has unresolved trauma, would this maladaptive attachment occur in all of them? Or, not necessarily?
This is interesting, and as always, thank you for sharing this.
Not necessarily, I think, as so many factors could cause slight variation, such as gender, temperament, looks, size etc. Sometimes the nature of a child can trigger parental trauma, say, if they are boisterous or silent.
Hey Mike. Can you do a video on best practices for people that: (a) have one alter that is the full time host for many/most years; (b) several alters that can occasionally co-front. Specifically: (i) if alters are trauma holders, how important is it to process that trauma at the front through the voice and physical body in same way neurotypical singlets process trauma? should we encourage switching? should we encourage passing through control to that alter while remaining co conscious;(ii) what do you do when alters what to host - to have autonomy, agency, a voice, just like the host does; (iii) improve internal communications, particularly enabling host to gain access to internal systems; (iv) work with polyfragmented alters that say they are 24/7 under trauma, and when they come to the front the emotions are so intense the person becomes incapable of doing anything but crying in bed, until the polyfragmented alter goes back inside.
So many good questions here, would you be ok if I used this comment as a kind of Q&A session type video, with short answers to each point?
@@thectadclinic yes you can use the comment as the basis for a video addressing those types of questions. i look forward to seeing that video
Def me. However not benign. Trying to get handle and to healing. Thanks Dr. Mike 👊
Love your videos. Wish the sound was a little better.
I have a new microphone, check the sound on the Moon Knight review video and let me know what you think!
@@thectadclinic just had a look at that video and the sound is excellent! No need to turn my iPad up at all. 👌🏻
I’m getting kicked out of my treatment place and I dint know how I get well they dint know how treat D I D and blaming me saying my treatment has plateaued
Book of Proverbs is a good start. John 3:16 is as well ! Violence & abuse can damage children seriously 😐
What about trauma from closed wards
Thank you so much. Your videos mean so much to us. One suggestion Mike: could you buy yourself a microphone please?
The sound quality makes this one hard to listen to, Dr. Mike. It’s still good content, but the sound is challenging. Hope that helps.
Very interesting. Have you, then, seen people develop DID due to this kind of trauma?
Hi Cat, yes, quite a bit. Is often includes bullying at school, general isolation etc.
Thank you for your work and sharing with the world 🤍
So what is the answer to helping infant dissociated parts that emerge later ???
my understanding is to acknowledge the crucial role they played to our survival and to offer gratitude, appreciation, and a sort of welcome from our present self (presumably well equipped-to-manage maintaining our safety now, or at least vastly better situated than our infant self/part)
My parents were my abusers, both of them. My mother told me over and over that she should have aborted me. My mom and dad did not love or want me so until I was 9 ( this was in the 1960s) I was continually abused in every possible way…I was also passed around to other family members and NOBODY wanted an unwanted child…me.
Sorry to hear this, I truly hope you are on your way to being the best person you want to be, away from that history.
@@thectadclinic I am in a much better place. I am away from my "family" and in a safe place with an advocate who believes in me and is helping me to learn and navigate my DID. Thank you for your channel.
Please dr L, get a pair of Headphones with mic or a external cheap mic. The background sounds is so loud that it is making me disassociate.
Kind regards.
Hi, thanks for your comment. I don't know why the video was tat noisy, the windows were open because it was really hot, perhaps that. I guess if it is like that again, you could opt for subtitles only?
That’s me
According to the most recent research several factors must combine in order for a child to develop multiplicity (DID).
Neurologists use fMRI scans to verify how dissociative identity disorder develops and have made great strides in understanding this fascinating coping mechanism.
The basis for the disorder rests on Stephen Porges’ polyvagal theory. When an infant is not soothed after an extremely terrorized event the 10th cranial nerve is unable to calm down and the infant stays in a state of terror. The theory goes on to say that if the abuse does not happen during infancy then it’s impossible for DID to take place. That is to say that if a very young child, after age 11 months but before age 4, experienced perceived death or some other very traumatic experience they may develop OSDD but not DID.
For DID to happen the child also needs to live through more trauma between age 11 months and four years of age.
A child with dissociative identity disorder is emotionally isolated, and has no one in which they can rely on and bond with. They are alone mentally, and their inner world is their only source of soothing.
The criteria for DID includes a lack of any reliable attachment figure, and a confused and terrorized mind. A child with all of these things is unable to process trauma into memory. Porges’s theory is that in order to conserve energy while in a state of terror sensory stimulation is bypassed because the communication between the upper and lower brain is streamlined. (I'm not a doctor but that's how I interpreted the theory put into simple language) because the trauma stays in the brain structural dissociation takes place.
A person with DID may live their whole lives not remembering or processing the traumatic experiences they lived through. These memories are not repressed memories they are dissociated memories.
There are two types of dissociated states in dissociative identity disorder: less than distinct states hold remembered trauma. Distinct states are the alters who run life. They are highly phobic of the remembered trauma. DID is the only disorder that has the ability to create more than one distinct state, and it is one of the criteria for the diagnosis.
🐉 Where did you learn all of that?
Can you provide a link or reference to the information?
🐉 Nevermind, just read up on the theory and saw that Stephen Porges performed flawed research with poor methodology, a lack of supporting evidence, disproven phylogenetic references, and an over simplification of established knowledge that reduces several branches of study into one grossly oversimplified base while failing to provide proper explanations or conclusive results.
Or in other words, the polyvagal theory is all but completely disproven.
@@Nahli2001 Thank you so much for commenting. It's always good to explore theories. The formation of DID is miraculous and mysterious, and one can only speculate how a child creates alters. For me, it's a spiritual experience, but I like to look at science too.
When I read about how and why the polyvagal nerve gets overstimulated in a traumatized infant, it made sense to me. But, of course, it's a theory.
For those interested, here's more info about the polyvagal theory.
I'd like to learn about other theories, so if anyone has any links, please post them;
www.polyvagalinstitute.org/background
Unfortunately, there isn’t much research about the formation of DID as most seem to site hippocampus volume and its relation to memory.
I once read how the first ANP forms very early because the child must separate themselves from a terrorizing caretaker. I'll have to look for the article, but it made sense when I read it.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108032/#S8title
I'm sure, as, in any theory, some organizations and individuals challenge polyvagal theory, but from what I’ve heard from many trauma therapists, it's widely accepted.
DID is in itself controversial, but as we know it's real.
Again, thank you for keeping the conversation alive.
@Lori and Crew Isn't it more the case that the brain creates Alters not the child, especially given the age that DID can have as it's age of origin?
That might just be our pedantic/literal thought process misinterpreting your intended meaning though.
We tend to keep up on certain things very actively like for example that the diagnosis of Asperger's is no longer an extent diagnosis, but has been made part of the diagnosis Autism Spectrum Disorder, or ASD, which we also have.
As a general whole we also span the range of scientific to spiritual.
Personal spiritual beliefs inform personal actions and internal understanding, and personally the language of the spiritual is preferred as it is more comfortable and individual.
However science with it's rigorous system of checking and rechecking is respected both for the effort put forth and for codifying terms that can be used as a standard when speaking with others.
In particular medical terms are especially useful when communicating with medical professionals.
Then again according to memories we grew up in part reading dictionaries and encyclopedias because it was quiet, it kept us from upsetting anyone, and we were/are hyperlexic.
As to theories pertaining to DID we ascribe thus far only to the theory of structural dissociation in medical settings and public discourse.
Beyond that there are personal beliefs that while holding personal validity are in conflict with the theory of structural dissociation.
Personally speaking, knowledge/facts which are externally verifiable should be granted the highest degree of confidence, that which is believable, individually reasonable and consistent comes next, and last come those things which require blind faith.
That is simply the personal order of information value given to provide or encourage interpersonal understanding and not a reference to any of the information you have presented, nor is it intended to imply any value judgements.
Thanks for the responses, personally this sort of conversation is enjoyable.
what I'm curious about is why some of us apparently meet those criteria yet develop OSDD instead of DID
Maybe it could be because someone, even if not with any continuity or not from a caregiver, might have somehow provided some margin of comfort.
Even if it paled in comparison to the intensity and/or duration and type of trauma.
Or maybe Porges isn't quite correct in all cases.
Interesting theories of Porges. I had learned about some content related to polyvagal theory, but had not heard of this particular bit you described.
It has been my understanding that DID only required abuse which spurred dissociation in the first few years of life, and in that process created fractured parts of the as-of-yet unformed central sense of self, in order to contain the overwhelming experiences and also keep on living and functioning.
I had wondered if I got OSDD instead due to the faux front of stability maintained where I came from. Some people "keep up appearances" which belie the awful truth. It makes it worse in some ways, but, if you have consistent food and basic other needs met (shelter and clothing), even if unsafe people are brought into your home and also abuse the minors in addition to family who abuse, maybe the fact that there is seeming, although insufficient, stability--perhaps that can have something to do with the way the developing brain copes.