How To "Disarm" An Unbeliever
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apologia Radio spoke at the 'God's Not Dead Conference' in San Diego, California. He took questions during the Q and A session. In this clip, Jeff answers the question, "How do I disarm an unbeliever?".
Do all religions lead to the same God? Are the differences meaningful? Listen to Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church/Radio/TV at the Q & A session at the 'God's Not Dead Conference' in San Diego.
Jeff talks about what the Bible says about our condition, the results of the fall, the exclusive nature of the claims of Christ, and the demands of love.
For more, go to Apologiaradio.com.
You can learn more about Christian Apologetics from men like Jeff Durbin, Dr. James White, Dr. K. Scott Oliphint, and Douglas Wilson by becoming a partner with Apologia Church and becoming an All Access member. You will get all of our TV shows, our After Show, and Apologia Academy. Sign up today at apologiaradio.com
"Win the person, not the argument. Just love people and trust God." AMEN - I *love* this!
this is a Ravi Zachariah quote but ok
Win the person? Wow. The arrogance boggles the mind. Why.not just leave people alone? If they want God, leave it to them. You've no right to stride around trying to convert people and you've no reason to pat yourselves on the back for it, if you think you're God's soldier, go sell Christianity somewhere difficult.
When do I get sent to hell?
People are not trophies
@MICK O'hara We as Christians are called to preach the word to ALL nations.
@@anthonywchavez go on.
Excellent point, no person ever "saved" anyone. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts the heart of the lost and brings about the conversion. That being said, it doesn't keep us from trying so hard ~ speaking from my own experience. This man works with humility and conviction like nobody I've ever seen, God bless you sir!
Ray Comfort is also very good when it comes to speaking the truth in love. Pray I would be more like that.
I got so much out of Jeff's answer... Gentle, caring, and not just trying to "win" is how to evangelize
😍
It's the same tactic sociopaths use to win people over.
This guy is a brilliant apologist, and he is the real deal, flat out great answer.
One of best things he has ever said and thats saying something!
Bless you Jeff,5yrs after this video was published it's still blessing others.
"Win the person no the argument" AWESOME!
Being friendly to me is in NO way going to affect my lack of belief in God.
@@tylerkasuboski3366 no surprise, since the Bible says no one seeks God, the Holy Spirit is needed.
I told my unbelieving friend, one time that people don’t convert you God ultimately does because people are not 100% logical. Your argument could be 100% convincing and authentic and they will still reject it and me and him actually did a role-play and I role-played as the atheist and it was fairly easy to just easily dismiss everything he was saying
Thanks Jeff for your advice. I have shared your video with missionaries and apologists of my church. I have been an apologist for over 30 years and found this very true to love the other person rather than try to win an argument.
My burden is not to convert someone, but to bring them the word. It is now between them and their Creator.
You are a very troubled individual. My comment was honest sincere and I recommended the video to my friends.
How sad.
OK, fair enough. But God has given each of us a way to test whether it be true.
Christ hints at this test when he said to Peter:
Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Philip Carpenter, are you an atheist? If so, I believe that in order for any religion to have credibility, it's members must first prove that God exists, wouldn't you agree?
To use an analogy, I can't offer you a bridge for sale, unless I can prove that I actually own that bridge.
No God= no true religion
I am a Mormon, but also just a human being who has no unevidenced superstitions. I guess it just comes down to what you are personally willing to accept as evidence. For example, I seriously doubt that you could personally "prove" to me spooky interaction between particles (in quantum mechanics). To me, it sounds like magic, contradicting the laws of nature (faster than the speed of light).
To me, you can continue in ignorance of the answer to the most important question in the universe because you are hung up on your view on what constitutes evidence. Do you accept spooky interaction, and upon what basis? You have personally observed it, you have spoken someone who has observed it, you have read the account of someone....... third party accounts? Or, simply, everybody in the scientific community accepts it?
Philip Carpenter thanks for taking the time to reply!! I invite you to try and debunk a syllogism titled BOOK OF MORMON DEBUNKS ATHEISM.
Religion can't be true if God does not exist.
Which is why IMHO its extremely important to ascertain the existence of God.
Once we've confirmed the existence of God, we can move on to the topic of salvation, if you agree.
Do you accept my invitation?
One of the hardest things that I have had to learn over the years is that is is NOT my job to convince anyone of anything. My job is to preach the word... It's up to God to convince the sinner.
I have gotten lost into so many debates with atheists over the years over side issues ("contradictions in the gospels," "the slaughter of the innocents never happened," "we don't know who wrote the gospels," "Jesus never existed," and topics like that), and while it is very important to have these discussions, know that no atheist is ever going to be convinced of God's existence just because you won a debate with him.
If you win a thousand arguments against atheists, but you never give them the gospel, then all of your argumentation was for nothing. In your evangelism, don't try to convince him of anything, just preach the gospel.
Very good point. better give up on convincing atheist because for enlightened persons is just plain clear that religious is a very improbable hypothesis of how the world came about and that there is no need to imagine a friend in the sky to explain the universe we live in. further more, give up on convincing atheists because you would run a huge risk of being convinced to the atheistic point. so I totally agree! just say "man on a cloud" and grow a beard or wear a funny hat because otherwise you are afraid your life will become pointless and leave it right there.
Jeffrey Ripson
But sir, the atheist has no point to be made - his worldview is merely a metanarrative that denies all metanarratives, a worldview from nothing, of nothing, and to nothing. Knowing that atheism is neither a belief, nor a statement about the existence of God, but is rather simply a lack of belief, what point is it that he has that you say the Christian shall become convinced of?
+Lawrence Stanley I mean that on this video, it is basically said to give up on arguing the existence of God. just give the gospel, and get out. I think the reason for this is because people delivering the gospel are getting sick and tired of loosing the debate every time. What atheists are doing is simply pointing out the impobabilities of religion on the basis of facts. This is conceived by theists as "hostile" and therefore atheists should be "disarmed". basically, this video shows theist now giving up on the debate. I think probably because they are afraid of loosing their faith after loosing every single argument for the existence of god. as for you nothingness argument: the universe doesn't care about what you believe. It just is. whatever purpose or reason you need to have for your comfort in life, it is all about what you put in it yourself. as an anti theist, I find my life very meaningful and I am great full that I have a mind to experience life. It is truly a remarkable and amazing feature of the universe, but by no means a miracle.
Jeffrey Ripson
How can a Christian "lose the debate" when atheists are arguing on the side of foolishness?
Since you bring up the universe and facts, would you be so kind as to explain to me from your worldview how the universe came to be.
Dear Lawrence, the universe started at the big bang. We have no indication of a omnipotent and/or omnipresent concious entity who started it. Time itself was did not exist before the big bang. We simply do not know (yet)
How did you come to believe that there has to a god? And if there is, why would he care about you? And if there is, why a particular Christian god and not any other of the approximate 2700 gods that mankind used to believe in? I'm assuming here that you are a christian..
I was baptized by the San Diego Pastor. Before he started Pastoring his own Church. God Bless Pastor Josh
You cant convinced an Atheist to be a believer , that’s the work of the word of God, and the Holy Spirit ,
Read 2 corinthian 5 verses 11.
You can't convince an atheist because you have no good arguments. The burden of proof has yet to be met.
@@stanstevens6289 what do you believe it then?
@HomoTriSapien truly examin our self? When did truly examin our self started?
Welp, I wish god loved me enough to convince me. Oh well.
I don't need to be disarmed. I'm not ARmed. If you want me to be a christian, you have to have good, scientific, researchable proof. If you don't have scientific proof, I don't want to be preached to.
Great words, "love people and trust God"
Good to hear, stop being hostile. It doesn't matter if you are a believer or not!
Guys!!!! Pray for this man!! He needs covering for protection from falling in any way or being physically hurt by people who hate truth. Pray for continued revelation from the Lord and for more men to be raised up who can defend the faith in our Lord Jesus this well.
Jeff you say you hope that your videos are helping people, and they are. What you are doing and your videos help me everyday to understand and learn. I have learned so much!!! Glory be to God!
Love your humility...perfect...isn't that all really the whole thing...to show love and concern? You have helped me regain my fire! Boldly speak GOD'S word having true joy in knowing that its his WILL that we are working towards. Thank you for your courage, we need to all strive to love on those we can...
Let your light shine that they may know you are a child of the most high.
In our day and age we talk to “labels” rather than to “persons.” We immediately put people into categories and assume their arguments then speak to the argument, not the person. The atheist has a name and a story. Talk to the person, not the label. You will blow their mind because they are not expecting to be treated like a person because they have encountered so many argumentative Christians.
As an atheist, I endorse this comment. The labels and categories include various simplistic and depersonalizing metaphors Christians like to use. We are not enemies who need disarming, nor crops to be harvested, nor sheep to be gathered. What I personally find most off-putting from believers is not them being argumentative but them assuming they know my thoughts, motivations, and past experiences better than I do. This usually takes the form of someone claiming that my reason for not believing isn't really lack of evidence but that I just hate God or want to spend my life in sin. The other popular one is when I say that I was a Christian for over ten years, they say I must not have REALLY been a believer all that time. As soon as these arrogant and condescending mind-reading tricks come out, the conversation is over and you've added another tally mark to the column labeled "Christians who drive people away rather than draw them in".
This is one of the best comments here, talk to the person, stop assuming things, that's the worst thing you can do, doing that will shut down the conversation
True words
@@scotte4765 Not sure where you are today. The Truth is the truth, whether you believe it or not. Romans 1 says that you suppress the truth and hate God. 1 John indicates that those who leave the Church never were among us. You may have a story and that is to be respected, but your story and the Truth are different and need to be approached separately.
@@PilgrimNinja Thank you for illustrating for other readers _exactly_ the condescending and uninformed snap judgements I was talking about. I could not have proven my point better even with another ten paragraphs of writing.
It's the power of His blood and the words of our testimony that saves. A testimony should be filled with the goodness of God and what He did for you not just a story of what happened to you but the faithful and never ending Love of God.
Pastor Jeff God bless your heart brother and continue to give the courage and love to continue to preach the gospel with Love and Godly wisdom🙏🏻
Atheist here, and I actually agree with a lot of this. I no longer debate, but I will have conversations. These have been a lot more valuable, in helping me understand why people believe what they believe.
Dogs And Yoga Do you actually agree with what this guy is saying?
crisofer954 No. I agree that christians shouldn't proselytize.
The only thing standing in your way is your lack of faith and reluctance to seek Jesus wholeheartedly. He promises to manifest when you do
Victhe FlicK Well, that's kinda just how my brain works 😀 A lack of faith is what makes me a skeptic.
Dogs And Yoga I hear ya. I can empathize with you because I've been on both sides of this conversation. But without faith, you can never be saved, know God or encounter the reality of His presence. He operates around and responds to our faith. It's impossible to please Him or to receive revelation or evidence of the supernatural without first positioning yourself in faith. My message to you is. I was a sceptic too so I identify for sure. It when I sought Jesus with all hat I had in faith I began experiencing and encountering Him for real. It's so real man. I challenge you to do the same because He promises as well as I do that you WILL find Him when you diligently seek Him! :) either way I do appreciate and admire your kindness and respect in your response more than you know. It's refreshing lol.
A fisherman doesn’t slap the water and cuss the fish.
Approach with God’s Love and you’re truly a fisher of men.
As a former atheist, I used to pretend that I was logical, openminded and reasonable.
The truth is I was closed minded because I didn't want to hear anything related to God unless it fit my pre-percieved notion of God.
I was illogical because I claimed there was no right or wrong but could easily agree with anyone that physically assaulting someone was wrong.
If you don't believe in God, who stands for righteousness you then can't use that same righteousness as a measuring stick because by default you're first asserting He and it don't exist.
I was not reasonable because I would willingly accept a post-dated check by the scientific community for unexplained phenomena like the missing link but then ignore that fact that the big bang violates the second law of thermodynamics.
If you found a simple standard screwdriver on top of a mountain that supposedly no one's been on top of, you'd assume that someone has indeed been up there, not that after millions and millions of years, despite entropy, it evolved into existence. Yet the human body is a chasm's distance away in complexity from screwdriver yet we think it's reasonable to suggest that it just evolved into existence.
It is illogical to believe that the screwdriver evolved into existence, it's not reasonable to attribute the screwdriver to someone knowingly or unknowing placing it there. And it's closedmindedness to accept that the screwdriver was made by a person and humanity was not also made by an intelligent being.
May God bless you all...
The god of the bible does not exist in our current perceived physical reality, because we have no proof that he has ever done what the bible says he has. Also because ALL the claims that are in the bible are unconfirmed and there are far too many CONTRADICTIONS.
Oh and last but not least: your god is an IMMORAL SADIST yet the bible says he is perfect holy and just. 85% of the world will burn eternally if you believe the bible AS READ. jeremiah 19:9, ISAIAH 45:7, Numbers 5:11-21, 1 Samuel 15:3. . . THE LIST GOES ON AND ON MAN!
Show less
REPLY
Thank you, brother. Yes, I've read all of those verses. Unfortunately, your premise is flawed, thus everything that follows is flawed as well.
God can't be immoral because God is good. He is the standard of good, much like a ruler used to measure a fish. You can always compare one fish to another and you'll only know if one is longer or shorter, but you'll never know the actual length. The ruler exists outside of the fish. You can always say, "he's not as bad as him", but you'll never know if he's good. Unless you have a standard, which has to exist outside of him.
Side note: God did not create evil. Evil is the privation of God, who is good, evil is not independent of good. When there is no God you have evil. Cold doesn't exist, it's the privation of heat. Without heat you can't have cold, this is basic thermodynamics. Cold is not independent of heat.
God created everything and everyone, thus everything belongs to him. Ergo, since he created us, he can end our lives anytime he wants however he wants. That's tantamount to me being irate that you created a beautiful Lego city and then took it apart. I have no say in what doesn't belong to me.
But what most of us do is borrow morality from God and use it to condemn him for doing something that belongs to him. If not from God, where are you getting your morality? And please don't say "it's common sense" or "it's our nature" or "we all have a personal moral compass" because I can easily disprove that by naming Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin or anyone of the mass murders in recent days or when we steal to feed someone else. All of these people were using their personal morality.
You're only attributing those deaths you judge as immoral to God. (Don't forget unless you can show me where you're getting your morality from, you're simply borrowing it from God, the very same God you're claiming doesn't exist.)
What about all the other deaths that have ever occurred? What about the old man that dies at 102 years old in his sleep and there's no scientific explanation for his death? Shouldn't that be counted as well? And if not, why?
And my last point when you said "The god of the bible does not exist in our current perceived physical reality", I think you were going into the existential, but then you reeled it back in by saying "we have no physical proof".
What about how the big bang "theory" can't be reconciled with the "law" of angular momentum or the second law of thermal dynamics?
In other words, if you found a screwdriver in a place said to have never been inhabited by an intelligent being, would you think a) perhaps after millions of years, despite entropy the screwdriver came to be (evolved) or b) would you use Okahm's razor and say "there has to have been an intelligent being here".
What atheist say, is that it was created. I know this because I used to say this when I was one.
If this makes no sense to you, then how can an infinitely more complex thing like a human being, a sentient being with emotions, abstract thoughts and the capacity to disregard its natural pull towards self-preservation willingly give its life for another human being also just came to be?
So if i understand you correctly, god sets a perfect standard by making people eat each other? What about sending people to hell for not happening to hear about jesus in their part of the world? There is no verse in the bible that CLEARLY states that those people will be saved.
So if me and my girlfreind create a child and then kill that child, it is ok because we created him? Sweet logic man. You exhibit many examples of special pleading here which are invalid.
We get our morality from our biology mainly and from eons of logical reasoning which has yielded: that which causes the least amount of harm to a being is the most moral. tell me what is wrong with that self evident truth? Not all people are moral, biologically or otherwise, so your refutes of defective organisms like stalin is null.
here is a riddle for you: was murder wrong before god said it was? If it was then why did he have to say it was?
The big bang does not violate the second law of thermodynamics because there is no limit to entropy and there may well been structure before it. We also are still learning about physics and the various micro physics.
How can a ultimate complex being like an all powerful god just come to be?
No, my friend, you got it 100% incorrect and I don’t know where you got the cannibalism assertion from.
On to your reply. Please explain how you and your gf are going to "create" life step by step and not analogous to dropping a seed onto fertile soil and watching a plant sprout up. And please explain how you're going to infuse that biological being with sentience, abstract concepts and lastly what will power the subatomic particles.
If you can do that I’d love for you to explain it to molecular biologist Douglas Axe the director of Biologic Institute of the Discovery Institute in Seattle who holds a Ph.D. from Caltech Ph.D., and cites that in 25 years of research it’s impossible to explain life using the theory of evolution in his book Undeniable.
On to your next assertion, please explain to me how you know that people that have never heard of Jesus are iin hell?
Side note: Out of respect for the English language please capitalize proper nouns, even if you refuse to believe that Jesus exists. I know this little ploy but it does nothing to your position and only shows an intentional lack of respect.
On to your claim of a self-evidentiary truth about morality through “eons of logical reasoning”. I guess you don’t see or chose to ignore the glaring inaccuracy with that. If our morality comes from eons of logical reasoning, then by your reasoning there should be no immorality in the world. But you do know that to be false because you then contradict yourself by saying “not all people are moral”. Seriously? But I’ll grant you many more opportunities to explain where we get our morality if it’s not from God.
As for your simple riddle, murder is wrong, because it takes away that which God created. He didn’t have to say it was wrong for it to be wrong. If I take your delicious gummy bears without your implied or direct consent, it is stealing, nobody needs to tell me it’s wrong.
When Cain (notice the capitalization on the proper noun) killed Abel, he lied to God when asked: “Where is Abel thy brother?” -Genesis 4:9 Why did he lie, because he obviously knew it was wrong, despite the fact that God had not yet given man the Ten Commandments. God didn’t have to say it was wrong, but he did so because so many people were being murderous.
Did you know as of March 2017 there are still 8 states where bestiality is not illegal? If morality is, as you stated, “self-evident” then why do why even have a law against that or any law for that matter? The answer to that question is the same answer to why God gave us laws.
Did you know even that God gave us a law against bestiality? "Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.” Exodus 22:19
As for your erroneous claim about entropy and the big bang, no disrespect but it sounds like you don’t know what entropy is.
And your last point, "How can a ultimate complex being like an all powerful god just come to be?" Keep in mind the following, you believe that the screwdriver in my original comment just came to be and it's marginally at best simple compared to the complexity of human anatomy, so by default you also believe that we just came to be. If you do believe that, then you must be intellectually honest and believe that God came to be as well.
Honestly, I don't know the answer to this question, just like I don't know how an invisible force like electricity works, but I know it exists and I work with it daily, but the day I work against it may be my last day. I do hope one day to be in God's presence and ask Him presonally, and I hope you're there too.
Please don't misunderstand my reply as a personal attack on you, and if you do so that was not my intention, but just as a simple reply from one brother to another.
May God forever bless you and your loved ones...
So like most christians you think you have read the bible but have not, jeremiah 19:9.
So to be more clear on morality, if i managed to create a type of intelligent life out of dirt then i could torture them as much as i want and it is alright?
You are confusing moral empathy with some kind of "gods law".
(by the way, fuck off the capitalization thing. We try not to even mention mass murderers' names. Same logic for me. i am being VERY polite )
You are totally dismissing my arguments without providing any specific evidence. You are now using "special pleading" and "arguing from ignorance".
i was speaking to someone yesterday who had questions, and ive never been one to talk about The Lord in a concrete way. but i did notice that when i referenced scripture and invoked the name of Jesus, there seemed to be a kind of authority when the words drifted into the air. all i said was "the bible says/teaches us" and giving testimony to the Lords sacrifice and what it meant, had a power which i am not used to feeling. God is awesome. my only desire is to be able to get closer to him. Thanx to all at aplogia studios and to dr james white. truely ppl with a heart for the truth.
That is more likely due simply to the fact that you asserted yourself in a way you don't frequently do, triggering changes in your testosterone and cortisol levels (hormones that affect confidence and anxiety, among other things), making you feel more confident. The real question here is whether the person you were talking to had any such reaction.
I would ask him to rephrase the question without the presumed notion that atheists are closed minded. I'm called an atheist and I truly am convinced that people who aren't willing to admit they may be wrong are the ones who are closed minded.
How to disarm an unbeliever:
The most disarming and agreeable believers I meet are the ones who keep their superstitions entirely to themselves and don't make "believer" or "unbeliever" their most important labels for people in the first place.
Lovingly speak truth, but be willing to walk away and brush the dust off your feet as Christ instructed his apostles to do - Matt. 10:13-15.
Jesus is Lord!
for me, loving the way God loves as seen by His son Jesus is the most humbling and effective way to show why God is the winner in life and not the world, it's definitely not easy but through God's loving transformation on you, is a game changer...how can you not expect to show that's to someone else if God is so patient with us
I have nothing but love to people of all beliefs. I've just experienced so much through my faith that I can't simply deny or turn away from it. I'd be lying to myself. I sought out proof and obtained it eternally. Sometimes you just can't explain it and you can't expect others to believe in an experience that they haven't experienced. I believe in the power of prayer 100% but I understand why some nonbelievers would think that I'm "just talking to myself" or I'm just crazy. It looks that way to someone who hasn't had that encounter. But it hasn't led me to a bad decision in my walk with Christ yet. So despite what others believe, meaning Christian that believe different from me, athiest, people of other religions, ect... I just hold onto my faith because it's pulled me through the valley. Much love to all!
When your peers don't understand your imaginary friend do this....
I STREET PREACH ALL THE TIME AND THIS IS THE BEST ADVICE I'VE EVER HEARD FROM A PREACHER KEEP IT UP!
jason thomas so true man I'm excited about telling the truth! :)
*_Weed_* Jesus?
Like, 'weed' as in marijuana?
Weed Jesus fuck you.
If by street preach you include feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, etc, great. Otherwise, how does it feel to know you're literally wasting your life?
these type vids are like atheist magnets !!!
So true, even more reason the comment section to be filled with love, grace, and truth.
Treeblazin.......
Is that good or bad?
HEY Mrs. Jones Thats a good thing! Unbelievers are the Christians mission field.
Is it that atheists are open and look at both sides of the story??
How do you "disarm" an unbeliever?
Start by not using confrontational metaphors that portray non-believers as enemies that need to be disarmed. We're not sheep, fish, or crops to be harvested either. All of these analogies make us into simple objects to be collected or opponents to be defeated if you follow simple steps 1, 2, and 3. I understand the appeal of these metaphors. Objectifying other people excuses you from the trouble of taking their real thoughts, questions, and life experiences as seriously as you take your own.
The Word of God says, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance, also to always speak with grace using words that edify one another.
.... and, in Jesus name, Amen.
How do I have a conversation with a fundamentalist Christain, so that they are not so closed minded?
God gives us grace and we either cooperate or not. It's still about free will which is also a gift from God. He loves us enough to let us choose Him or turn away from Him.
Mary Therese McCool u are dead in sin and can't choose God. What u espoused is what is called Pelagianism and it is heretical.
sircivicirl yes I have but apparently u haven't.
I'm an atheist, doing a bit of Jeff's work for him here. 1) don't assume what the atheist believes or why. ASK what they believe so you don't spend time arguing against irrelevant ideas. 2) don't try to WIN. just try to resolve CONFUSION. these tips will help atheists AND theists in discussion.
Good counsel. I would also recommend emulating 2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will GRANT them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
"They'll know we are Christians by our love"
great jobbbbb jeff
Atheist: Your not supporting your claim with actual evidence.
Christian: why are you being so closed minded and hostile.
Christian: could you provide evidence to support your claim
Atheist: ....
MrFatbibi
Atheism has no claim, its a rejection one, because it cant support itself with evidence.
Exactly Piet... MrFatbibi, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I reject the claim that there is a god as I see no evidence... back to you.
My required standard of proof is simplistic. Would you accept the proofs of gods existence to be strong enough to authorise you to execute a non believer?
So much of the Proof of gods relies on heresay, which is not admitted in a criminal court. If I stood in a court of law and said 'I believe you did something' but without other evidence you would reject me out of hand. If I produce a statement , made by a non witness years after the event , you would reject it. If I produced several conflicting statements , written years after the event by eye witnesses, you would reject them.
Why should I accept Belief in the Bible , which breaks all the rules of evidence, as proof of anything?
As an Athiest I foolishly expect a high standard of proof of something so all compassing as an omnipotent god.
Username
Christian: here’s evidence
Atheist: that’s not evidence
Christian: well how about this evidence
Atheist: nope, still not evidence
Christian: well what evidence would you accept?
Atheist: there is no evidence
Christian: but I just showed you evidence
Atheist: that proves nothing
Christian: well you asked for evidence not proof
Atheist: yes I want absolute proof.
Christian: what will you accept as proof
Atheist: nothing
Christian: then how am I supposed to show you?
Atheist: well you could start with evidence!
Christian: I gave you evidence already and you rejected it. What evidence will you accept?
Atheist: anything will do
Christian: but I already gave you some
Atheist: that’s not evidence
Christian: well actually it is
Atheist: it may be evidence but it proves nothing
Christian: .... (and the cycle continues on forever).
This was a good reminder for me. Thanks ✝️🙏
You're speaking of the mysteries of God brother. Things I could only hope to comprehend. Serious meat!
Have you ever considered the possibility that there may be NO mystery to comprehend?
1 Peter 3-15 "15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to *give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess*."
Atheists never ask me about the hope I possess. I don't have to answer atheists. What does the Bible have to say about willful sinners who deny God and mock him and his people? We are to knock the dust off our shoes when we leave them behind. Don't waste too much time with most atheists. You can't win because they're not interested in truth. If you can find an atheist who is a truth seeker, you have actually found an agnostic. Atheists cower from the truth like they do God. Handing them the truth is a waste of time.
its impossible to cower from something one doesn't believes exist...
Quadrupliplex I don't care what you believe about God. No one should care. That's between you and God and is really none of my buisness. Now if you believe in God and want to know the hope Jesus has made available, then let's talk. Otherwise I'm not interested in what you believe.
I won't say all atheists are interested in truth. But I am.
Something very basic to Christianity is that there are truths the unbelievers do not know. If the claims of Christianity are true, I am *very* interested to know that. Knowing, for instance, that a god exists and judges everyone would have a significant impact on my values, behavior, and personality.
But the marketplace of propositions is vast. There are many claims made by many people. *Everything* I believe to be true will have an impact on my actions. But it matters to me, as a terminal value, that the things I believe actually align with reality. If someone "hands me the truth" that snake oil cures cancer, and I believe it, but it doesn't, then even if it makes me feel good the belief is truly of no benefit to me (though my belief in it would be of benefit to the salesman). I want to believe *only* true claims.
So to distinguish snake oil from radiation treatment, I ask for some form of justification I can verify. If you're saying (to Quadrupliplex) you're not interested in talking and justifying yourself unless I already agree with you, then you've set up a situation where people like me, who value truth but haven't been convinced, have no chance to hear your justification.
Painting people like me as cowering would be inaccurate. I don't fear truth. Now, if I don't do my due diligence in assessing your justification, I am intellectually dishonest, or just lazy. And people less interested in truth, who don't even care what you say, are apathetic. But I wouldn't call those things cowardice.
Aexis Rai The simple answer is, 1) living things look designed so they probably are. 2) The universe is so precise that we can use math to make predictions of things not yet seen with just pen and paper. These two facts are all the evidence we need to show without any doubt the existence of a creator. No counter argument from science works or is based in any reality. For example, the multiverse invokes a fantasy place where universes can exist that don't follow the laws of physics and is therefore not science but is rather science fiction. God is. He created the universe and everything in it. This is by far the best explanation for existence and design and nothing else comes close. For this simple version I won't even get into the existence of humanity. So everything was clearly created. The question now becomes, who dun it? That question was answered when God rose Jesus from the grave. But how can we be sure? We can't be sure. Instead we look at the witness accounts and examine the witnesses to see if we can poke holes in their story or their trustworthiness. This has been done for 2000 years and no plausible counter story or explanation fits the New Testament narrative. 2000 years of falsification attempts and implausible alternative explanations for the actions of the Apostles is no guarantee it's true but it's powerful nonetheless. When Jesus spoke to Jews and said to have faith, he wasn't referring to belief in God. The Jews already knew God existed. It was to have trust in his Word and future promise. It was to trust that God sent the Messiah and to trust that it was Jesus. Jesus is Lord and God and he wasn't killed for saying he was the Messiah. He was killed by the Temple authorities for asserting he is God. There is no Hebrew law against Messianic claims and many have and weren't killed for their claims. The bottom line is, I don't have faith/trust that God exists. I have faith/trust that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God and God himself. Jesus is the Angel of the LORD, the son of man as spoken about in the Torah, and God in the flesh. These are the things I believe on top of knowing God exists.
@Robert Sparks "living things look designed so they probably are."
Let's see if I understand: I think you're saying either "living things look [like / similar to] designed [things]" or "living things look designed [exhibit some traits that constitute 'design']".
Please, it's up to you to define what design means here. As it is, without more information, if you are saying
X looks like Y
Y is known to be designed
therefore X is designed
I am unconvinced. Depending on what constitutes design, it is possible that X is undesigned and Y was designed to emulate X, and /that/ is the reason X looks like Y. It's also possible that visual similarity between X and Y is due to reasons other than design.
If you do not believe in God and you know you are right about Atheism,why are you arguing? I think it is because you are not really 100 percent convinced that you are right and you are searching for truth.
because your religious beliefs affect how you raise your children and who you vote for. and how you raise your children affects ALL of us. and who you vote for affects ALL of us.
You're basically asking "if you don't believe in our dangerous cult that is trying to legislate irrational and harmful policies, why fight against it?" see the problem there?
If you beliefs REALLY affected no one, we wouldn't care. But in the real world, our beliefs ALL affect ALL of us. and when you believe things for bad reasons, you are more likely to make bad/harmful decisions that affect you AND everyone around you.
westingtyler ideas but why do you care? We hsve no purpose or meaning in life anyways. Science has basically told us that & tons of people believe it
westingtyler ideas explain to me why do you care about others?
westingtyler ideas you do realize atheism is not science right?
Hayward Martin
We give ourselves meaning, the thing that makes us happy without harming others. My empathy for the children FORCED into a religion, as i was; is enough for me to expose EXTREME religion.
Jesus Christ is real
slickguy275s straight up. I've seen and witnessed WAY too much.
slickguy275s fuck you.
Crohn you realize you may be one of the only people on earth who dont believe jesus was real, was worshipped as God, and was crucified under pontius pilate. There is sooooo much written documentation even by hostile witnesses such as Pliny and tacitus two high ranking roman government officials for example
t.i.d b.i.t :) so all of written history can be disputed then huh?
t.i.d b.i.t the man who says all of history can be disputed no longer has credibility. You clearly have not read any of the second century writings about Jesus Christ. There are no different interpretations. Everything collaborates very nicely. And by the way these second century documents are original and unchanged.
Unbelievers aren’t the claim makers.
Circular reasoning is a helluva drug.
Speaking as a former Christian, I know the hidden agenda behind the smiles. You're fooling no-one... CAN IT!
@Aerial You don't know, you believe.
@Aerial Then you're just fooling yourself. You believe to know.
there seems to be a regular dictionary everyone uses to define words in your daly life and then there is a religious dictionary religious people can change the definitions of words to suit the lie so you can believe in a stupid illogical belief!
wow, disarm with love. so good.
Crohn 🤣😂😂😂👍
Better to use love than reasoned arguments, evidence and facts?
170221dn well, what if you used evidence and reasoning out of love for someone to get a better understanding?
DeathHawk713
"170221dn well, what if you used evidence and reasoning out of love for someone to get a better understanding? "
I know what evidence and reasoning are, I don't know what difference it makes if it is "out of love for someone". Can you explain?
170221dn out of love, being concerned for someone's well-being and morals. I know these are different emotions, but still. Its best to reason with someone using facts and evidence instead of using evidence for hate speech and demoralizing others. (Not that im accusing you of anything.)
As an Atheist y'all are more close minded. You have a problem with everyone that doesn't agree with your Christianity. Do what all other religions do and keep you opinion to yourself.
Sid Saenz Islam.
Simone Noelle Jesus loves ya
I don't have a problem with unbelievers I want to warn them of hell and point them to the Lord Jesus Christ
"I don't have a problem with unbelievers I want to warn them of hell and point them to the Lord Jesus Christ"
And I want to wake you up in the middle of the night, & tell you your house is on fire, and for you to get out before you burn to death when it is actually not on fire.
With all due respect, seems to me chances are that you would be quite upset with such a naked claim; hence why many unbelievers get frustrated with your unsupported assertions such as hell. And that unless we repent, we burn FOREVER! All the while not substantiating your extraordinary claim.
I assumed your claim for the sake of argument, arrived at an "absurd" result, and then concluded that the original assumption must have been wrong, since it led to this absurd result. This is called a Reductio ad absurdum.
A_Stoic_Master the second you die you will believe in Hell but it will be too late there is no second chance you have a appointment with death
Love people, trust God! I like that!
It's always a little curious to me when people say trust God. I understand the sentiment but I've also read the Bible. Just taking the flood as an example God is killing nearly every single human being on the planet children and even pregnant mothers included. Isn't it always wrong to kill unborn children? Or is that sometimes okay? Keep in mind that moral relativism is when somebody says that sometimes it's wrong to do something but other times it's right to do that same thing.
Was it right or was it wrong for God to kill those children?
It’s downright bizarre to me to hear Jeff believes I am in a hostile relationship with God. It’s like saying I am in a hostile relationship with Ra, aliens, Dracula or Merlin. What’s hostile about being unconvinced these are anything more than characters of myth? How is that a relationship at all, much less a hostile one?
How to get someone to be more open minded, hmm. That's an easy one! Gently hit them over the head with something hard =b lol jk jk!
Exactly. The atheist isn't just some person who doesn't see enough evidence for God. Their conscience testifies to them. They don't want to submit to God's standard. They want to live in their sins, guilt free. There is great evidence for God out there easy to find with a quick web search. A belief in God doesn't involve blind faith. it's the logical choice. It takes blind faith to believe there is no God and no purpose to our lives, that we're some cosmic accident.
Another arrogant and condescending believer who thinks he can read minds and know exactly what other people's thoughts and motivations are. I absolutely support your right to think that way, but keep it to yourself. You don't know what anyone else thinks until you ask them (much less spend time with them), personally and individually. Your know-it-all presumptions make people want to hear less about your beliefs, not more. Go away.
Yawn, nice try.
The ultimate irony in atheism is that an atheists disbelief blinds them from seeing the truth and reality of the gospel. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Jesus is real. I experience His presence all the time now because I took Him on His promise that I would find Him when I sought Him with my whole heart. See, I've been on both sides of the fence and I can empathize with atheists. I once thought religion was just a control tactic the government used. Ever since I pursued Jesus as my priority I began to feel So much love and peace and His presence. I also began started seeing evil faces and shadows and horrible nightmares and other demonic activity because I my desire to know Jesus and witness to others about what I know now
How do I believe a book written by man. Game of thrones was written by man... does that mean I believe in Dragon queens and large walls to keep out the white walkers? I need proof. Physical proof.
Why do people say such nonsense?
"Win the person--not the argument". Is that because the argument's already lost? ;)
how did you come to that conclusion?
It's at least a partly serious question. It doesn't seem that theism makes headway in terms of logical argument, and theism is pretty much at a loss when it comes to science. What I hear in Durbin's admonition is that changing a person's mind is more likely to happen through means which are non-testable and non-quantifiable. He uses words like "sincerity" and "genuine", and indicates that the unconvinced are "hostile to God". It sounds to me like he is talking about emotional ( rather than rational) arguments. Many non-believers are looking for real evidence, and that's what will most likely change their minds. So far no credible demonstration that any god exists has appeared. Theism has a heavy burden. We need demonstration that 1) a god exists, 2) that god has made a revelation to humanity, and 3) humanity has understood the revelation.
More like because a lot of Christians get to militant in their refuting and destroying the worldview of others, and are not showing the love of Christ and being gentle and salted with grace in our argumentation; rather then what you're insinuating. Theism is actually (ironic to your last assertion) the opposite in terms of logical argumentation, theism is the only worldview which can be deduced logically. For example take the law of inertia (And if you're not familiar with it let me copy and paste an explanation from google): "Newton's first law of motion is often stated as. An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."
Which means then, that something or some force must move before the object does, this is axiomatic. We see that the golf ball does not move until the golfer hits it, and so forth. The same can be said with our universe, the universe is a big something which by logical and scientific necessity must have been created or initiated by an uncaused cause/unmoved mover. Logically this is so because of the law of inertia, and it is indeed common sense that the universe could not have created itself (That would violate the law of non-contradiction, that is an absurdity.) someone or something must have created or as I said earlier initiated the process for the universe's coming into being, and that someone or something would have to be eternal by nature; because if not it would lead to an infinite regress of someone's or something's creating other someone's or something's and it would never end and is therefor absurd. So this someone or something must be eternal, transcending space-time and matter, it also must be incredibly powerful in order to initiate or create such a vast something (The universe). And it is scientifically necessary because we know that the universe is finite, that the universe began at a point in time, in fact that is what the big bang theory is all about. Here's the problem though, the big bang theory by necessity needs a mover/creator.
And I'd like to appeal to your list of demands.
1): God exists we know this from the law of inertia, the ontological argument, and many other facets of knowledge other then philosophic knowledge, like common sense which is innate and science for example.
2): God has made a revelation to mankind, both in nature and special revelation the Bible.
3): Mankind has indeed understood special revelation, there are practical methods to understanding and interpreting the Bible such as hermeneutics, and exegesis. There is a plethora of commentaries on the Bible which also are helpful to understanding the text.
Ontological argument gets you a deistic god, but how do you go from that vague notion to the personal god you're referring to? How do you want to test the assertion that since inertia and common sense exist, therefore God exists? Human beings wrote the anthology that we call the Bible. How are you going to test the notion that they really understood what they were writing. Even in the 21st century, we barely understand our own planet, much less the surrounding solar system. We can see the vastness of the universe around us. Planet earth is a speck, surrounded by the unknown. The god of the Bible is said to be the explanation for all existence. How can a race of beings as ignorant as we know the secret to everything?How can you demonstrate that we have any understanding of the scriptures, after the numerous translations, copying re-copying that occurred? When we say things "exist", we mean they have observable properties. What is God's primary characteristic? How would you know when you are not experiencing God?
drumrnva, indeed it does, that is why I said theism is the ramification of critical thinking and the use of logic. I did not bridge the gap yet from theism to Christianity specifically. And I already did explain how through inertia we come to deduce that God exists. Here's a excerpt from my last comment:
""Newton's first law of motion is often stated as. An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."
Which means then, that something or some force must move before the object does, this is axiomatic. We see that the golf ball does not move until the golfer hits it, and so forth. The same can be said with our universe, the universe is a big something which by logical and scientific necessity must have been created or initiated by an uncaused cause/unmoved mover. Logically this is so because of the law of inertia, and it is indeed common sense that the universe could not have created itself (That would violate the law of non-contradiction, that is an absurdity.) someone or something must have created or as I said earlier initiated the process for the universe's coming into being, and that someone or something would have to be eternal by nature; because if not it would lead to an infinite regress of someone's or something's creating other someone's or something's and it would never end and is therefor absurd. So this someone or something must be eternal, transcending space-time and matter, it also must be incredibly powerful in order to initiate or create such a vast something (The universe). And it is scientifically necessary because we know that the universe is finite, that the universe began at a point in time, in fact that is what the big bang theory is all about. Here's the problem though, the big bang theory by necessity needs a mover/creator."
I challenge you simply to ask yourself questions in a socratic fashion to how you exist. You might declare it is through your parents reproducing you through intercourse and then through birth etc, but then you'd need to ask how your parents came about and so on and so forth until you reach how the earth came to exist and then the universe etc. I am certain that if you simply question your existence in a way which actually leads somewhere you will always come to the conclusion that God created or atleast initiated the necessary properties and contingencies for which you can exist.
"Human beings wrote the anthology that we call the Bible. How are you going to test the notion that they really understood what they were writing.", how can we test the notion I can understand what you are writing? It's not as though the Bible is a jumbled up script of incoherent symbols, the Bible is a collection of books which have been written in understandable coherent languages with a context, they were written in historical eras with historical persons and peoples, and in real geographical areas etc, we can test the Bible through the historical method like we do with any other piece of ancient literature.
"The god of the Bible is said to be the explanation for all existence. How can a race of beings as ignorant as we know the secret to everything?", because this race of beings as ignorant as us have been given revelation from the very God whom did create the universe. And we don't know the secret to everything, even this is revealed:
"“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)
I must say, he gave a really good response
Thanks for the excellent reminder that we are only seed planters, but it is God that gives the increase.
What nonsense. We do not believe because the religions are void of reality.
r3ggi3000 your in a matrix homeboy and your reality is what you see and touch and understand. That doesn't mean it's reality. Watch out. Because doubt and disbelief blinds us
Why are atheists who claim we are totally wrong about God existing always wasting their time on commenting in this forums then? Why not go out and party? Go have your fun! Atheists claim one thing but deep down inside, they are threatened by the thought of God. Turn to Jesus, humble yourself and accept Jesus into your heart right now, then you will know peace. 😊
Pseudo intellectualism at it's finest.
As a former Christian (now agnostic) it boggles my mind how I used to hear this kind of empty talk as profound and meaningful when pastors etc deep down have no better idea what really happens when you die than me or anyone else.
SuperFly25 im sorry
yaowadeez snm For what?
Angus Wallace I know right... And that part about 'breathing fire,' that's the antithesis of 1 peter 3 15. Got to love the people who think they have The Truth, which is somehow a god as well.
Just listen with open ears and heart . Would you not rather be loved and have hope of a great afterlife than to believe in nothing and have no hope or love? Maybe 99% of Christians are fake and are fans not followers but that doesn't mean they can't change and work at being better in god and life the same goes for you all as well.
Love turns away wrath
:ToggleSwitch: Actually this person is just quoting scripture..which this verse in its context says that in general when you speak or come to someone in love it keeps from the other person getting upset/angry
If by wrath, you mean frustration. Yeah, that might work for 2 minutes, until you start talking about fairies and unicorns and how they're absolutely true again.
Then your god isn't love, for his wrath is the greatest of all.
love them and seek God for the answer
Awesome. Great message!! Share the Truth with gentleness and kindness. And respect. Or how can you practice what you are preaching or ministering to, if you do not abide by what the father has taught us upon sharing the gospel and your belief as an extension of the way Jesus would to the best of our ability. I think this speaks much more volumes as we ever could by being stern or breathing fire as you say to a fellow brother and sister. I can honesty say this is ultimately the best approach. An approach of love respect and understand.
Atheists already know God exists. Romans 1:18-22
Well it must be true, it says it right there in Romans!
Wait but doesn't the Bible also say, over and over that Jesus would return quickly? Didn't he even explicitly tell groups of people that some of them listening to him _would still be alive_ when he returned? That was 2,000 years ago.
It's almost as if the Bible is not 100% accurate....
blacknonbelievers.wordpress.com/jesus-failed-prophecy-about-his-return/
www.gotquestions.org/not-taste-death.html
Context.
well, the bible also says plants were created before the stars. and that light was created before the sun...so yeah. it's cheap, but fine, to say "but god can do anything" but if you do that, there are now no rules, and anything goes, and don't EVER try to say it's a science book since it just disregards science as soon as there is a disagreement, with a hand wave.
westingtyler ideas There are things God cannot do. The Bible explains this. Not once does the Bible teach that God is omnipotent or "can do anything."
No one is claiming the Bible is a science book. It has logical science in it, but creation itself was not governed by science as we know it today. It was a supernatural event governed by God himself. God doesn't adhere to our laws of science, so there being plants before light is not really a big deal. The only way this is a problem is when you doubt what a god is capable of.
Patty Ice that "Got Questions" rationalization only works for the indoctrinated who are running from the truth. The failed prophecy of Jesus returning within a single generation is repeated over and over.
Open your eyes or at least acknowledge that you are running around with them closed.
blacknonbelievers.wordpress.com/jesus-failed-prophecy-about-his-return/
convince the atheist with facts, science ,math..... other then that its all make believe
+Wiliam Strumfels It's not about science. Atheists secretly know there has to be a first cause for life and the universe. It's about people who, even when they know God exists, who don't want to know in general. The deceive themselves, that's why it's hard to cinvince someone who is already convinced. It was never about convincing arguments.
Prove the scientific method is the only path to knowledge with the scientific method.
the ability to be able to do science and math is evidence of God.
"the more I study science the more I believe in God" - Albert Einstein
All facts in this universe support the notion of there being a creator.
Niko Einstein did not believe in the God of the Bible. He was more of pantheism. Believing that the universe itself was God. "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature." - Einstein
I never claimed that Einstein believed in the God of the Bible. He just wasn't dumb enough to believe in no God at all.But He didn't believe the universe was God hahah.
Ahh atheist my fellow enemies
Something can't come from nothing
there is no evidence of something coming from nothing. in fact, we don't have a nothing to examine, so we can't make any assessment of whether something can come from it. but all that is irrelevant as to whether there is a god that started anything. if we don't know, we don 't know. the god "hand wave explanation" doesn't just win by default.
Ice Sweet ice your Enemy is not of flesh and blood but of principalities and powers in high places... meaning your enemy is the devil and his servants
Then where did god come from?
God has always been. He has no beginning or end.
You realize one of the most respected theories for the existence of the universe is that it to has no beginning nor end. The law of thermodynamics doesn't need to apply to the beginning of the universe. Because the laws that apply to us might not apply before everything
It's always about the soul.
Absolutely correct.
Forget the rules. Forget the argument if need be. The minute you see a crack in that armor or what is actually a sign God may be at work with a miracle....go for it. Leave the debate and go straight for a soul plea.
Never forget that God uses us using Him to rescue His people.
Never lose God as the basis for what you know. Never. Do NOT try to convert them to Christian intellectualism. Do not try to convert them to a generic form of an invisible creator. Win them for and go to battle for the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. His grace. His word. His Kingdom.
Praise God for everything.
I am not hostile against something that does not exist.
congrats
Amen
Jessus Chavez fuck you.
William Thompson we love you bro
LoL @ all non believers being hostile to God...
Just as fallacious as Atheists stating that all believers are brainwashed.
Massively weak...
It's what Christians do..............They tell you what you "really" think, feel, believe and realize
***** I think that's a symptom of a weak mind.
yet you responded defensively?
the first step to disarm that conversation would be to show them the respect to not place your biased and wrong assumptions on them
I'm looking for irrefutable proof of the existence of a benevolent supernatural deity watching our every move, All I keep finding is self righteous and condescending children with Dragon Ball Z profile pictures.
GOD IF YOU EXSIST GIVE ME A HEART ATTACK WITHIN THE NEXT 6 SECONDS.
nope still here.
Le Avocado You really expected God to murder you via heart attack because you told him to on UA-cam? As if He answers to you, and as if your demand was reasonable?
Starting to think Jeff is right about atheists.
If your god is omnipotent and omniscient, surely he had the ability to fulfill such a request, and in doing so he could have earned another believer to serve him in his heavenly kingdom. Why does your god hide?
***** It's not a matter of capability. God is not some suicide assassin for hire who takes death requests to "earn another believer" (which is an absolutely ridiculous way of "earning" a "believer.")
Can you honestly not see how childish the idea is? I'm genuinely shocked I need to explain any of the millions of reasons it doesn't work. The fact that you would say God is "hiding" because he didn't just murder this fellow is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.
If you still can't see it, then answer me this: if you were God, would you acquiesce to his request, yes or no?
If my goal is to accumulate as many followers as possible, of course I would seize every opportunity to show my existence. Why wouldn't I?
Thanks Jeff, I learned alot from this.
How do we distinguish between true beliefs and mythology? It is true, or is it ancient Jewish mythology. It is true, or is it ancient Egyptian mythology?
Apologetics really has got nothing.
Candice Arlebemus you should take a look on hes videos. :)
drakgrotta I did. That's why I said apologetics really has got nothing.
Candice Arlebemus Cool, what videos did you watch?
LOL... That sure is an empty statement. you have anything to *VALIDATE* what you just said? Do you really even believe that? The fact is, everyone should come to a *POINT* where they know what they believe and why they believe it. Your *VAIN* statement reflects no Truth at all. Sorry, but an *EPIC* fail on your part.
Slippery Storm ...Wow.... that sure was filled with a *LOT* to ponder!
Actually, what can you substantiate your belief system with? If there is no God, which *PARTICLE* of dust does morality stem from?
Have you got anything valid and worthwhile to offer up? If not, I guess it's *BEST* that you continue to say nothing :-).
Because we are all made in God's image there is a right way for each of us to be inclined written on our hearts. That way is toward God. Though we all have the choice to turn away there will be something of the truth that remains in the unbeliever. If you can come to know him or her you can get to those truths they know and recognize and reorient those truths to their right inclination, God.
I’m an atheist and I’ve seen many debates where people who believe in “their god” have their arguments dismantled. What frustrates me is why bother debating/convincing an atheist? Your never gonna prove that the religion is true (in a factual scientific fashion) but at the same time it’s a personal belief or more accurately that you feel you know something that me or other atheists aren’t going to understand. I only judge a Christian (for example) when they act selfishly & are uncaring when they supposed to be following the teachings of Christ. I like Jeff’s message in this situation, it wouldn’t and shouldn’t convert anyone but it’s great to be that way.
As an ex-Mormon atheist who deeply disagrees with Jeff, I fully endorse this message of disarming by gentleness and respect. In over 10 videos I've been impressed to see he walks his talk. Inspires me to do the same. Much respect.
What exactly do you disagree with?
@@sheriffbang8039 His presuppositional argument is the core disagreement I have. It seems like most specifics can be traced back to that.
Nainoa Kalama break it down for me, highlight one thing and maybe I can help
@@sheriffbang8039 Cool. I mean. I think I understand. I just disagree. But not gonna turn down a willing helper. What is presupposed? Just that there must be a God? Or is it that some sort of universally objective real thing must exist. Or is it even more specific that the God of the Bible and the truth of the Bible are assumed true? What, in your view, she be presupposed, and can you justify? I presuppose shared experience, and that's about it.
Nainoa Kalama comes down to your definition of the word GOD, there are many gods that people worship from statues to animals to mythical creatures, a black stone etc. the basic mind set for anyone looking outside the box is where we came from. Everything is much a theory and there can only be one objective truth. I can tell you we came from nothing, I can also tell you that I jumped over the moon with the cat the fiddle and the silver spoon. Doubt you would believe me without evidence right? If you base your beliefs on evidence then the holy bible which is the only word of GOD has what you are looking for. Many believers went for darwins theory yet there is not one single case reported of a change in kind. At the end it doesn't matter what who or why because people in general would reject the truth of GOD because they want to do evil. Ask yourself this, which of the Ten Commandments and the LORD Jesus teachings do you disagree with ? A good place to start when hunting down evidence is Ron wyatt who found the land of sodom with balls of Sulfur that tested to be 98 percent Sulfur. The LORD rained down fire and brimstone from the LORD in heaven" holy bible. Check out Noah's ark in the mountains of turkey. My faith in the one true living GOD who made us in his image is not based on wishful thinking or presupposed. Life does not come from nothing as we both know, the first miracle of the holy bible is all around us, if earth was one way left or right we would either burn up or the planet wouldn't sustain life, think that Is a coincidence or more to the truth there is an intelligent designer / creator behind it? Look at it this way, you are a person among many but there are none like you, this cannot happen by chance or natures selection, no matter how you want to look at this you will always end up coming back to GOD, for GOD to be GOD, GOD has to be outside time space and matter. Uncreated being that is personal to choose to create. Why the GOD of the bible ? Once you come to know the truth that There can only be one GOD, none like him it helps you eradicate many deceptions. The one true living GOD the father of the holy bible fits all the criteria of being individual to stand out among the wanna be gods. I'll hit you with some examples, the holy bible teaches that GOD is just righteous holy and loving. To be a just judge and loving at the same time is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. To be just GOD must judge us by our fruit, if we have broken his laws and we all have then GOD being a perfect Holy Spirit being must punish us. we as humans don't give criminals a holiday house in Hawaii right then when The GOD of the holy bible judges us for our sins he must judge us according to his ways for they are not our ways and the wages of sin = death. On the flip side GOD loves us so it's like this, as a judge who sentenced a man for steeling then out of love he reaches into his pocket and pays the criminals debt. The one true living GOD of the holy bible is the only GOD that saves his creation he loves from our selfs, the only one that says you cannot earn your salvation for our works are but filthy rags onto the LORD, when all others will promise you that you can work your way into heaven ( pointing to the so called truth ) that your good deeds will out weigh or cancel the bad which causes so many problems as if I were to rape someone then give money to charity does that mean we can all forget about what I did. The LORD Jesus says we cannot get to GOD, it's GOD that came to us and threw him, the works of the lamb of GOD we are saved for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son not to condemn it. Unlike others who promise you the world ( Earthy things) The LORD Jesus spoke with authority and said I AM the truth the only way to eternal life. He is the author of life and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Paid your debt in full fulfilling everything in all righteousness, he died so you can live. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Unlike many doctrines that offer you sinful acts such as Islam that will promise you multiple wife's, sex slaves, child brides, power money and sex in paradise with virgins, the LORD Jesus saith you will be persecuted for my holy names Sake. Who would want to follow anyone who says if you do you will be hated and die, that you are to carry your cross daily, when all hate you know they hated me first and to not worry about those who can destroy the flesh, to build up your treasure in Heaven and let your light shine before man so that they will know Ye are children of the most high, pray for those who persecute you and love to those who hate you for what reward do Ye have if you love the ones who love you and hate the ones that hate you. By their fruits Ye shall know them, the apostles who gave their lives wouldn't do so for a lie and died terrible deaths so live in Christ is gain, they have no motive to give themselves glory or perks, be born again of the spirit and build up your treasure in heaven there will your heart he also. One thing is for sure that we will all die and it is written it is appointed for man to die then stand judgment. Justice on earth is one thing and I'm sure you would want justice if someone did evil onto you and they will be judged, you me everyone. If you were a man and I Wanted you to believe in me I would offer you Islam because Satan knows what the sinful heart wants which is full of sick and perverse things Mohammad did. At the end my good friend you have free will and get to choose which path to live, wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads onto damnation and many shall find it, but narrow is the gate the leads onto eternal life and few shall find it for the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field. Once you find it you will give up everything to have it, I am not ashamed of the word of GOD and the LORD Jesus has done many miracles in my life. Love the LORD with all your heart and keep his commandments for they are sweet as honey in your mouth. Much love from Australia, GOD bless you
This is outstanding
JamesB
It’s pretty funny, but a lot of people fully believe the stupid things these guys say, so I have a hard time supporting it. Even from a comedy aspect.
I must say that after witnessing my brother’s suicide I went from a devout believer to an anger-filled atheist. I blamed his death and the trauma on the idea of god, but what brought me peace was letting go from both sides of the argument. God or not, my brother passed away and no matter how miserable it was to bear the pain of his loss I could keep moving or I could stop. I chose to keep moving. I chose to enjoy every single little moment that this beautiful world has to offer. I chose to love every person with a heart full of compassion and I have never been happier and more at peace. Perhaps we’ve wasted time arguing and need to focus on the now.
Thank you for sharing. May God's love and mercy continue to be ever present in your life.
You are a great inspiration to the Body. Gracias!
“It’s not they just don’t see enough evidence…”
Yup. It is.
Let me make this clear, I am not rebelling against God. It’s not selfishness. It’s not that I dislike God. It’s not that I want to be free of responsibility from God.
Quite simply; there is no evidence for God.
At all.
Ever.
I’ve looked.
I’ve come to realize that when people ask if I’ve, “accepted Jesus” or, “opened my heart to God” they aren’t asking if I’ve recognized any evidence. What they are asking is, “do you believe now?”.
They are asking if I’ve started a belief in God based on faith alone.
No, I have not and I won’t until the evidence presents itself.
I will 40 this year...I always believed in God but I didn’t understand like I do now. I’m going to keep this short because I need to get back to work soon but in short one day I woke up and there was God. It wasn’t a choice of mine to wake up and diligently persue God but it happend just that fast just that easy. I understood nothing before God woke me up literally when I tried to read the Bible I never got that far before I found myself totally confused and not understanding a word I was reading. On the morning of my awaking I almost ran to my bible and just like that everything was clear to me. His words seemed to be broken down for me by him in some way so I could understand it and absorb it. Now my life is completely taken over by God I don’t move speak or act without his presence constantly in my head and heart. My point is this....I didn’t choose the day he did I didn’t choose to believe he made it so I can’t refute him. It was literally as if God said to me on that day....today you will know me today you will be saved. It’s a hard path a hard journey but as the old saying goes...all the things worth doing in life are seldom ever easy.
Been a Christian all my life but just recently had the same experience. It became so much more real after I had a dream encounter with Jesus. Now, I only want to read his words, turn from sin, and learn more about our glorious Father.
Your not going to change a persons mind who has already been in your position from the get go. Unbelievers believed at one point. The question is , why do you ??
As an atheist I find this a refreshing insight. I respect most believers - like a lot of them - just don't agree. Most atheists are same. We don't hate god, just don't believe there is one, can't hate something you don't believe exists. Don't like some atheists even though I do agree with them.
People who hate god are not atheists, they are either courageous souls who disagree with God or idiots willing to trade 60 years of debauchery for an eternity in hell.
Excellent answer
I thought he's going to give us some useful tips. All that he says in 5 minutes is do it with respect and kindness. Thanks a lot.
Plenty of nonbelievers have already given much better tips and advice in the comment section right here. Provide convincing evidence for your claims. Have coherent arguments, and admit it when you don't. Stop thinking of nonbelievers as people who need to be "disarmed" in the first place, along with other demeaning metaphors like sheep to be gathered or crops to be harvested. Don't treat nonbelievers as ignorant idiots who have never heard of Jesus before, to say nothing of all the overused theistic arguments.
Really, if you want to know how to get through to a certain group of people on any topic, you should probably ask that group of people what they would find most engaging or convincing.
@@scotte4765 I did asked. Most agreed that nothing will convince them. Sometimes you get to a dead end road like this.
@@BrightRomeo
I won't dispute your claim of your own experience, though that's an interesting answer to get if you actually asked more than a small handful of nonbelievers. Most of the ones I've met, and including myself, say they would believe if they were presented with evidence that is proportional and appropriate to the claims being made. Are you sure they weren't just unconvinced by the evidence or arguments you happened to be presenting at the time? I do see that a lot from theists: a refusal to acknowledge that the argument or case they're making is simply bad, which is what leads to them having discussions like the one in this video, because the fault is obviously the closed-mindedness of the nonbeliever and not that the believer is making a rehashed presentation of an argument that was refuted centuries ago.
In any case, some people do feel that way, so I hope you did what you would do on a real dead-end road: turn around and leave them alone.
Wow.. stumbled on a gold mine here... your sooooooo right man wow
I talk to so many different people in different lifestyles. I work in a carnal setting. And God has given me the grace to take those oppurtunities (that God has placed) all around me (they literally are all around me, its insane); and some pretty amazing conversations have come out of it. God spoke to my heart long ago about Him being the One that man is rejecting, not me. So it really gave me the freedom and assurance to just let the Lord use my vessel and not get all crazy when man comes against the truth that is coming out of my mouth.. I remove myself out of the equation and know that the perspective I am to have is, that i make it my aim to please Him, 2 Cor 5:9. Because I was put here for two reasons, to glorify God in heaven and to share His gospel with those around me (which is something else God spoke to my heart).
As I was saying before, I get so many different responses in sharing the gospel and Gods word with those around me (surprisingly people really lend there ear when i just share Bible stories with them and or what is going on in my life and what Gods word has been speaking to me, or when I talk to them about phrophecy and world events, or even when I talk to them about the whole story of the Bible, they will just listen to me and ponder like they just heard something they never had before, those are so beautiful, because I know that it is Gods Word that is peircing thru there hearts and it is truly amazing to see it). Sometimes there is a need to be compassionate and sometimes a need to be bold. I always try and let the Holy Spirit move and say only what He wants me too. And I came across this really cool verse that really like gave me some peace of mind with some of the people I have been coming across and the season of life I am in. And it is found in the book of Jude; Jude 1:20-23 starting in vs.22 "And some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh".
I just thought it was so cool. Because God knows the heart and He knows the true condition of soil in someones heart. And with others there is a need to just show them how much God loves them with compassion and truth and others with boldness and haste. Anyway, just wanted to share. Thanks for posting these videos Apologia and may God further the ministry that He has blessed you with.- Your sister in Northern, Ca
This is how I felt about evengalists wearing shirts and telling people they are sinners. That already strikes unbelief in there head and just frustrates them. That's why when I talk to people I try to relate or tell them grace and forgiveness and route them towards Jesus how he is the only one for that. I always felt wrong and people have said im polluting the word, but I think showing them love first is easier for people to understand before seeing truth, because people aren't looking for the truth anymore thats why we are talking to them in the first place right?
As Calvinist's why do you try to preach the gospel to anyone? Having said that, Jeff does do an excellent job.
Very good answer.
As an unbeliever who has viewed several hours of Durban, I wouldn’t trust his advise on how to “disarm” us lol
There you go.
Not many on the street do this.
I’ve sent you to reap what you haven’t sown. Walk in the Spirit.
Wonderful. Amen
well answered and helpful
Trust God! Love people. Try to win the person not the debate!
That's going to show me that you're a loving person who doesn't have compelling evidence or good reasons for what they believe. Better than nothing, I suppose?
@@scotte4765 The point here is We all(humanity)have that very same choice...To either Love/Hate...to do Good/Evil! Now if you agree that we all have that choice...then you too believe in 'Morality! If you believe in 'Morality'.....then that provokes the question of ' Who's/What Morality....where did it come from??
@@piijay14 No, the point is that "win the person not the debate" is the excuse made by people who recognize that they don't have compelling answers to sensible and important questions. Being kind and loving to non-believers is great, but for many non-believers, it's not enough. Are you going to believe astrology is real because the person who offered to do your horoscope thought "win the person" was good enough to persuade you of its truth? If not, why would you think it's good enough to win people over to your beliefs?
When non-believers ask you for verified evidence of miracles or compelling explanations of human suffering or a dozen other inadequately answered questions, you need to give it. And it needs to actually be convincing, not the insipid catchphrases and flawed arguments we've heard dozens of times before. If you don't, then their rejection of your beliefs is your fault, not theirs.
. If you win the debate but the person still rejects God..and is STILL HELL bound....then what's the point?? You really won Nothing!
Nowhere in that Bible did God/Christ say
"Go out & win/debates" What it does say is...Go make disciples of ALL NATIONS....": St. Matt 28:19
@@piijay14 Let's change the terminology here, shall we? Most atheists I know of, including myself, are not out to "win debates". They just want convincing evidence and reasoning before they will believe religious claims. However, as soon as we say, "that's not convincing because X," the Christian usually refuses to acknowledge the point, accuses the atheist of hating God, and it turns into a debate.
With that said, I'll respond to your point. If the non-believer asks for convincing evidence and reasoning on a particular point, and you actually give it, then you've done your job and it's out of your hands at that point, whether the non-believer accepts God right then or not. I refer you to the story of the disciple Thomas. Notice that even though Jesus said that believing without seeing was better, he STILL gave Thomas the physical evidence Thomas asked for. Jesus loved the person AND "won the debate".
So for many non-believers, you need to do both. Just make sure you're actually giving convincing arguments and evidence. Most of the ones that believers try to give are not, and have been shown to be flawed or insufficient a long time ago.
Ultimately it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that saves, not the evangelist. Intercessory prayer, living a life consecrated to Christ, knowing and preaching the Word, speaking the truth in love...these are strong witnesses.
That is always the excuse of religious believers who can't provide evidence for their claims. Blame God for working in his own "mysterious ways," blame the atheist or the skeptic for being closed-minded, but by no means ever blame yourself for doing a poor job of showing why anyone should believe the things you do. Standard operating procedure for the religious.
wow, that's right!! That is something I lost. Very Biblical!!