So what is a Hawken rifle? How some modern copies of Hawken rifles aren't really Hawken guns at all.
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- Опубліковано 19 кві 2023
- A video going over reproduction Hawken rifles and how most of the guns that are advertised and sold as Hawken rifles are NOT real copies, but in fact, copies of Dimick and Leman Indian Trade rifles.
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My first muzzleloader was a .36 caliber Seneca I bought in 1976 for my 16th birthday (you could back then) and I still have her. I have taken 1 2x2 mule deer, 3 mule deer doe, 1 10 point Whitetail and 5 WT doe all from my original Lyman Maxi Ball mold I bought with the rifle. No idea on rabbits, squirrels and prairie dogs. I am a gunsmith and built center fire rifles for 30 plus years. I started building flintlocks from scratch 9 years ago… I love these things. I hope to build a Hawken Flinter before I die
I am fortunate enough to have the Thompson Center Hawkins model in 50 caliber back in the early seventies
Good video! My first muzzleloader was a .50 cal. CVA Mountain Rifle that I bought as a kit in the 1970's and finished it in the brown plum color. I've shot numerous deer, feral hogs and small game with it over the years and still take it out occasionally during hunting season. It gives me the sense of nostalgia when hunting with it and carries naturally in my arms. It is also very accurate with a round ball out to 100 yards.
My first BP Muzzle loader in 1984 was a TC "Hawken" in .54 cal, I bought it ignorant and blind, but it was a good entry level ML rifle for the newbie I was then. After I'd developed an appreciation for authenticity then I progressed onto Flintlocks and budget saved for 2nd hand custom made rifles. Here I am now at 70 considering a 2nd hand Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in .54 !
I'm a bit older, still have my TC "Hawken" .54, which has been my elk muzzle-loader!
I picked up a CVA Hawken back in the 80's., was told they were not authentic. Good shooting weapon, still have it. Thanks for the info.
Great presentation. I know the TC isn't anything like what a Hawken was. What it does have going for it is (or was) an easy, inexpensive entery into muzzleloading. They were an accurate hunting rifle that was an excellent learning tool. I have had one for years and it still makes it into the woods.
Great presentation. Lots of information I did not know. I've got the CVA Mountain Rifle, TC Hawken and TC Renegade, and have always had a particular fondness of the CVA. Thank you for your insights.
Sir, thank you for this excellent video. After watching "Jeremiah Johnson" about 50 times, my wife got me an early Christmas present in September of 1995. It's marked "Springfield Hawken" from Traditions, Inc. Yes, it only has one barrel wedge in its half-stock, the barrel is only 28" long, and the butt plate, trigger guard, and end cap are made of brass; hence, it's more like the modern replicas you describe in your video. Still, it's a gift from my wife, and I did shoot my first deer, a mess of wild hogs, and a bunch of muzzleloader matches with it (it's got a 1-66" twist for patched round balls). So, I made a mount for it, and it sits over the (unused) fireplace, which makes my wife happy. She may not have all the attributes of an original Hawken, but she's well-balanced rifle and a great shooter. Thanks again for this great video on the history of the Hawken rifle. Take care & God bless, Dave
Thank you so much for all your hard work in making this video. I have the Pedersoli Hawken and I did not realize until now how authentic it looks.
John Baird, Big Timber Montana was a true expert on the Hawken Rifle. I built mine after his photos many years ago. He was the most knowledgeable I ever met or read.
The early T/C Hawken was an excellent rifle. I owned one in .50 cal and loved it!!! 😎
I rarely see them mentioned, but I have an Austin & Halleck .50 caliber "mountain rifle" which very closely resembles an authentic "Hawken". Single wedge forend, 32" barrel (mine is 1:66 round ball twist) maple stock with some "tiger stripe" figure, browned metal furniture. The stock looks much better than the usual "off the shelf" rifle. Double set trigger and buckhorn sights. It has a raised cheekpiece and crescent buttplate. Mine is percussion, they were also made in flintlock and could be had with 1: 28" or 1:66" twist.
Mine was built in Missouri, the company later moved to Utah and went out of business about 2006. I bought mine new in 1999. It has been an excellent rifle, though I am not a big black powder enthusiast, I own this rifle and a Hatfield .36 flintlock "Squirrel rifle". They were both just way too pretty to pass up.
While the single wedge forend may not be precisely correct for a "Hawken" the A&H was not marketed as a "Hawken". It is otherwise a very attractive, accurate, reliable rifle.
I understand that Traditions, Inc. bought the remaining inventory of A&H and sold the rifles for some time after A&H went out of business. I cannot confirm that.
I see them available on online auctions from time to time and they seem to be a relative bargain on the used market. At the time I bought the rifle, new, it was a bit pricey but worth every penny.
Wanted an A&H back in the day,absolutely exquisite rifle;new dad at the time,friend came through with a flintlock T/C that befuddled him.Persevered and mastered it,love it to this day.
I didn't know any of this... I just bought my first muzzle loader and wanted a Hawken replica. Luckily I got a Lyman great plains!
My first black powder was a Thompson Center Hawken. The barrel rifling was pretty rough. Patches would literally be shredded. You couldn't hit the side of a barn if you were standing inside. I was new to the sport and sold it. The guy that bought it, pushed a lead bullet coated with valve grinding fluid through the bore about two dozen times. Then it shot well. My next was a Dixie Gun Works Tennessee Mountain Rifle. It weighed a lot and was awkward to carry but shot extremely well with a 250 grain Lee REAL bullet over 95 grains of powder. It was actually too powerful to hunt deer with.
Well, guns have Mauser actions or hybrids there of and people still call them Mausers etc ... Hawken was simply a sporterized long rifle made in St Louis for folks on the way west.
Interesting video. I went through my own "mountain man" phase back in the 1980s, made myself a buckskin outfit, made a powder horn, etc., etc. I have a copy (not sure of the manufacturer off the top of my head) of a Leman trade rifle in .50 caliber, and a Uberti copy of a Hawken in .54 caliber that I built and finished from a kit. Neither one has a patch box in the stock, and both have iron furniture - no brass at all - with German silver plates for the barrel wedges. They're both very accurate (3" groups) at 100 yards, but the Leman copy is much easier to shoot because pre-cast bullets are readily available. The Uberti gun, at .54 caliber, was almost impossible to find pre-made bullets for years ago, so I had to jury-rig, using multiple patches and other improvised methods which made it very difficult to load. The Uberti Hawken weighs 9 lbs., 10 oz. The Leman copy is probably a little more than 8 lbs.
You forgot to mention the Lyman Plains rifles some of which also were very close copies of the Hawken. The Lymans were available in 54 caliber and a 1 in 66 or 1 in 48" rifling twist. Most early Hawken rifles were flintlocks. Percussion Hawkens didn't appear until after the last Rendezvous held in 1840.
I have my great grandfathers he brought from Kentucky in 1820 to California.
Awesome! Would LOVE to get those two books. Have two EARLIER books on Hawken rifles by a guy named John Baird. "Hawken Riles" 1968, and "15 years in the Hawken Lode" 1971. Born in 1946. As a naive kid, I had no interest in guns. Then I saw Jeremiah Johnson in the movies. I visited a gun store with a cop friend of mine who buying ammo. They has a TC flintlock .50 caliber rifle for sale. Knowing NOTHING about Hawkens or guns, I thought it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw. Bought it and have loved muzzle loaders ever since. Learned all about shooting with that gun. After I bought Baird's books, l learned about REAL Hawkens. The details in their construction are laid out there with LOTS of photos of ORIGINALS. The originals had leaf springs in the locks. TC has a COIL spring.The father of Jacob and Sam Hawken was. I believe, Christian Hawken and he made flintlock long rifles in Maryland. I believe that came from a gun making family in Der Vaterland named Hachen or something like that later anglicized to Hawken.
Back in the 1980s Navy Arms sold a better Hawken Replica under another company name but I can't remember it.
Thanks again for this excellent video. Hope you do more on this subject !
I purchased John's book to help me build a full-stock Jake Hawken flintlock, it's a great book.
Is shot my 1st big rack buck with my 1st muzzle loader a CVA mountain rifle in the Ozark mountains of Arkansas in the 80s
The Gemmer Collection was displayed in the Jefferson Memorial in ST. Louis, Mo until sold.
I bought a T/C .50 cal Hawken in 1974 shortly after I got home from Germany..at Edelmans sporting gods shop in Wayne, NJ...cist me less than 200 bux...IIRC ,a buck and a half...lost itvto oawn in 1979 when I moved to FL and needed quick cssh...
When the length of the barrel past the forend is the same as the length between the forend and the back of the lock, the rifle is beautifully proportioned. Most replicas today have barrels too short to achieve the classic aesthetic of a true Hawken.
Nice! That rifle you have there reminds me a lot of my old 'Hawken' that I built from a kit in the early to mid eighties. 54 cal, double set trigger, but mine had a brass patchbox and crescent butt plate. 2 wedges (if I remember correctly but that was a long time ago). I don't remember who made the kit though. Lost track of that one in the late eighties. Last I heard it got backed over by the guy's dad back then... I think it was either cva or tc. Interesting video!
It is a shame that they borrowed on the name Hawken for sake of marketing. It has become a tiring subject.
Like putting the word tactical on anything nowadays
To be fair, In the 1960s, they were not the first, nor the last to do so. No one really complained at the time because quite frankly, few enthusiasts knew the difference, let alone the manufacturers. T/C stepped into a niche, providing the novice with an opportunity to join the ranks of the muzzleloading boom. Those relatively modern takes on old smokepoles were what allowed today's enthusiasts to grow into such discriminating as it relates to historically accurate tastes.
The adjustable sights, easy breakdown and general resemblance to a plains rifle, the T/C Hawken and subsquent variants (I owned a Renegade) introduced many cartridge rifle shooters into the world of muzzleloading, for fun, blackpowder hunting, re-enactments, rendevous life, all of which foster the greater interest/acquisition of period correct and historically accurate muzzleloaders.
Fantastic information and explanation!! TC sure had their marketing down to appeal to the masses.
Thanks for the info. I have several Dimick firearms, one of my rifles has the double set trigger shown in the 1958 American Rifeman magazine
Thompson Center had muzzle loaders out in the early to mid sixties and maybe earlier but my first experience with their product came in that time frame when they sent a catalog. The kit they had then which you could also buy fully assembled had an underswing hammer (percussion) and was unlike anything I had read about muzzle loaders at that time. They also had several other products, pistols, etc. By 1970 they were well established in the balck powder muzzle loader circles and the hobby was thriving.
Thompson Center didn't even begin as a company until 1965 when Warren Center got together with the KW Thompson Tool Company and their first gun was the Encore pistol that they put out in 1967. The Hawken was Warren Center's idea, and the company made it and started selling it in 1970. Feel free to Google what I just told you. A friend of mine has a collection of T/C Catalogs, including the very first catalog from 1967.
Very good video on the Hawken and their competitors of the day.
My first BP rifle was the T/C Hawken rifle in .54. I know it's not an authentic reproduction but it's a good rife. It was manufactured in 78 and I am fitting it with a grade 3 curley maple stock with copper and iron furniture. I still shoot it all the time and have several cap guns and one flintlock rifle.
This lady Adirondack is either slow or just now realized the difference between a historical museum piece and something that can be used and enjoyed, she makes a revelation out of common knowledge like she is the reincarnation of Sherlock Holmes. The T/C Hawken is the finest rifle ever made and as close to a Hawken design without the flaws. This lady's next video will probably be a lengthy explanation about how Shinola is not real excrement.
@@ChacoteOutdoorRecreationLOL. I wish I saw this 5 months ago. She is the wife of Captain Obvious. I have 4 blackpowder rifles and my 47 year old T/C Hawken is my go to gun. I agree with you 100% and could never figure out why all these big time channels call them a starter rifle. I guess mine is a starter and the ender.😅
Good informative vid. I didn't really expect my Investarm .45 'Hawken' to be an exact historical replica. But when people ask me what I've got, its easier to say 'Hawken Rifle' rather than 'Modern Black Powder rifle loosely based on a Hawken'. People still know what I mean when I say 'Hawken'.
There are a few of us old geezers that have studied Jacob and Sam Hawken guns longer than Bob Woodfill has…Bob knows his sh*t no doubt…and is the current J&S expert because of his book …listen to you you’re pretty well versed in the truth…Jacob was the genius and the star of the Hawken story…Sam just happened to outlive Jake…long enough to get the recognition and glory for a “won the west” firearm…Jacob incorporated the halfstock Harper’s Ferry ideas of iron mounts, patent breeches, long tang reenforcement ,durable locks and big calibers.
Sam was making squirrel guns in Ohio when Jake was outfitting mountain men…just saying…look closely and you can see the style of Jacob and you’ll want your Hawken to look like Jake made it.
Great run down!!
Got a T/C 50 cal flintlock from a friend in 1980.Even then shooters knew it wasn't a true copy of a Hawken rifle of old. Those that wanted aa ccloser copy of the original bought the Great Plains or Ithaca gun.Still have my alleged Hawken,still shoot it,still love it. Cleans up easily, doesn't care what you feed it,an accurate fine rifle. This is an excellent video btw.Those wanting a more historically accurate gun have a great many options to choose from.
The way I see it, I have a 50cal TC Hawken, and the 54cal CVA Hawken, and they are just the offer of today (70's and 80's). Just like how what they call a Cadillac today is a disgrace to an old Fleetwood. I get it, everyone wants exact replica. That's fine. If that's what you're after, go for it. I also hunt with gortex boots and camo backpack and orange insulated clothes, not buckskins, scrimshawed powder horn etc. Individual experience may vary. Just enjoy it.
Great video thank you.
Excellent video
I have a hawken that was built in the 70s, as the story goes by a preacher/ gunsmith in Tennessee (can't prove it, no marking anywhere) it is 54-caliber, 36" barrel, over 13lbs, and is amazingly accurate. (I believe the twist is 1 in 66).
Beautiful straight grain American walnut no patchbox.
I believe that it was built from a St Louis hawken parts kit (again no proof)
But everything that I have found leans to it.
I also have a CVA mountain rifle 50 caliber, when put side by side the CVA looks like small and the fittings look wrong and cheap.
The custom hawken is all iron furniture.
Controversy over the Thompson stops where it's not a bench gun. But it is a great starter black powder riffle. It's a cheap way to learn if you want to be period correct. I encourage people to get bench replicas. Craftsmanship is so much the difference. The quality of the Hawkins was widely sought after. Quality doesn't come in a cardboard box.
The first Hawken rifles were made by Jake and were flintlocks. Sam joined Jake and the percussion version followed. They converted many flintlocks to percussion, as was the trend, but a shame for historic purposes. Their shop eventually employed several fabricators specializing in the making of individual parts of the rifle. The Hawken Shop still offers a Hawken kit which is as close to a real Hawken as possible. The Lyman great Plains rifle to me is more Hawken-like than the CVA. I have many different modern flintlocks and also a full-stock flintlock Hawken in 54 I made trying to closely replicate one of Jake's designs. I really enjoyed your discussion.
Technically, the first Hawken rifles were made by their father, Christian Hawken, who was also a gunsmith.
Thanks for the information! I learned a lot. So am I correct in thinking that the popularity of the Hawken is more of a current thing and that it wasn't the be all end all of the rifles of the mountain men? Thanks again for the video, I'm a new subscriber!
Great video thanks! The 1970s were long ago now that the Hawkens of that era are kind of historically neat for those of us who don't have the coin for an accurate reproduction
I didn't know this. Thanks.
Very good video
I thought that gun my Mom brought my Dad for Christmas was CVA HAWKENS but it might have been the Thompson Center, I know that it was a 45 caliber and came with two triggers and a shorter brrel. All of which made easy to go hunting for deer in the woods of Lower Central Michigan. The weight of it was not bad either. I don't know if the first black powder weapon that I shot was this or my Uncles 50 cal. but I fired in to a large piece of metal ductwork and a little hole in but about 6-8 inch hole going out
The Hawkins Rifle, was a mounted improvement for western game. The Main Benefit as you could drop it off a horse and not break it. They were heavy barrel mostly 58-62 in Caliber 12 lbs. I have bought several Investarms Kits and made a rifle for My own purpose. The Drop in the stocks is excessive. It weighs too much. I am adjusting the stock now for an offhand primative class 50 Cal Target Rifle. Too much wood between me and my sight line.
Is the hump on the grip of the Johnston rifle a peep mount?
GOT ONE OF THE THOMPSON CENTER 50 CAL HAWKIN ,SHOOTS GREAT NICE GUN FLINT LOCK LOVE IT KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY 😊
To me a CVA is just that, a CVA and a Thomson Center is a Thomson Center. Neither are Hawken mountain rifles.
It looks like you have a custom lock/ hammer that is not the normal cva lock. Where did you get that lock? It really looks great and I would love to get one for my first traditions Springfield replica. Track of the wolf?? Great video as well!!
The lock is an L & R lock, you can find them on their website.
I have several Hawken style rifles. I have a TC Renegade 54, TC Renegade 50, TC Hawken 50, Pedersoli Traditional Hawken Target 50, CVA Hawken Supreme 54 with chrome lined bore, CVA Mountain Rifle 50, I think the closest current production rifle, to a original Hawken, is the Investarms Gemmer Hawken, & the now discontinued Lymen Great Plains Rifle, which is the same rifle as the Genmer.
? What caliber was predominant in original Hawken Rifles?
From everything I've read and looked at, there wasn't ONE caliber that was predominant. It was different then too as now you have standardized calibers like .50, .54. 58 etc. I've seen .50, .52, .54, .56, .58, .59, .60, .61 and .62 caliber original Hawken rifles. There were also smaller calibers like .38, .39, .40, .43, .44, .45, .48 etc.
I get it: The modern "replicas" are generic forms of the Hawken Rifle - which itself varied to the customer's demands and specifications. When I got into BP back in the Bicentennial, I very quickly found that there were others out there besides the ubiquitous CVA or TC. After admiring the guns of the colonial era and the frontier since a child, I immedeately by-passed those and got my hands on a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 caliber/1:66, percussion. There are very few halfstock rifles that come closer to having most of the features of the original "Hawkin" rifles: two wedges, 32" barrel, the twist, the proper drop (CVA and TC's are too straight which may explain the very tall rear sight), the large but trim buckhorn sight, the plain brown finish, no patch box. Except for the coil main spring, it's just about right in the details and has been ultra reliable since new in 1980. Navy Arms Hawken was offered years ago. It was an exact copy if the Lyman, but in tiger striped maple and a German silver end cap. Lovely rifle. There are a couple of others but I can't recall the brand names. The Investarms Gemmer Hawken shown in the video is most probably the Great Plains Rifle - also made by Investarms.
My other rifle is the excellent and now out of production Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .50/1:56, percussion. I bought that one in 1979. Back then they were made by Miroku of Japan, and this thing is as fine a rifle as can be had factory made. Finest lock I have EVER handled - custom or not.
Traditions rifles are not "copies" of CVA rifles. They are the CVA rifles produced by the same former suppliers to CVA. CVA was just an importer of rifles made in Spain and Italy. Like Navy Arms.
Original Hawkens had a 1:48 twist not 1:66 or any slow “round ball”twist rifling.
I've owned my fake Hawken for 32 years, the thing that bothers me is, they are everywhere and look like they were made with a cookie cutter. But mine was cheap and is a good shooter.
That's at least the one thing that's always been good about them, they tend to be great shooters, a lot of deer have been taken over the last 50 years since Thompson Center brought out their so called Hawken and then the other companies followed suit.
Take a plain jane full stock Kentucky rifle without fancy brass furniture and carving/inletting... Cut 6 or 7 inches off the business end... and make it 54 caliber or bigger (60 and 62 caliber weren't unheard of) and you'll be pretty close to the original Hawken rifles.
I picked up a nice used Great Plains Rifle and it came with a 54 Cal. Great Plains Hunter barrel too. I find it to be a nice rifle, but yes, not an exact copy of the real thing.
Can anyone tell me how mountain men carried the percussion caps? I’ve always through they prefer the flint lock as easily replaced if needed
The boxes on the side of the Hawkens and muzzleloaders are not actually patch boxes, which are large and rectangular. CAP boxes, as Bob Woodfill detailed in his book on the Hawken rifle, are smaller and circular like you see on the repro Hawken guns from T/C, CVA and Traditions. They were are original Hawkens except for some of the guns that were made by Jacob Hawken.
@@Bayan1905 thanks for the info. I can not see a mountain man in the cold or anything else trying to get out a cap and on the nipple ! I have a hard time and I’m not being chased by Indians lol
Most current muzzleloading enthusiasts wouldn't EVER own a true copy of an original 19th Jake and Sam Hawken rifle. The original rifles were incredibly plain and the *LIGHTER* ones weighed in at 10.5 pounds, while the heavier ones weighed right around 12 pounds. This was for rifles that averaged between .52 caliber to .56 caliber. The barrels were so stout so that they could be loaded with very heavy powder charges, thus extending the rifle's true killing range out to 200 yards.
I've had the privilege to be allowed to handle an original, early 1850's, .52 caliber, half-stock Sam Hawken rifle. It weighed approximately 11.5 pounds with a 36" long, slightly tapered barrel.
The incredibly plain walnut half-stock was originally stained very dark. The varnish had oxidized over 125 years to be nearly black in color.
The tang, butt plate, nose cap, toe plate, triggerguard, trigger plate, lock plate, hammer, barrel key escutcheon plates, and lock bolt escutcheon plate still retained faint traces of their bone charcoal color case hardening. The barrel wedge keys, the triggers, and the lock bolt still retained faint traces of their original fire bluing. The barrel's original blued finish had oxidized to a medium brown color. The lock plate had oxidized to a dark silver color.
Awesome video
Very good video. Clears the mud big time. Question...was the Hawken ever made in flintlock??? Several "Hawkens" offered today are available in flint.
There was ONE documented Hawken made that was a flintlock, and it was known as the Ashley super Hawken. It was for General William Ashley in 1822 by Samuel and Jacob Hawken as a gun to defend the keelboats used during Ashley's expedition from Native Americans who would shoot down from the overlooking river banks. The gun was contracted to shoot 200 yards and fire a 1 ounce round ball. Samuel Hawken in an interview with a newspaper many years described the gun, and it was the first Hawken rifle the two built. It had a barrel three and a half feet long and was in at least .69 caliber. Not much else is known about it but it was a flintlock.
Thank you. If I see a flint Hawken, then I'll known it's not a true replica.@@Bayan1905
Most modern Hawkins are nowhere close to original Hawkins, the furniture and stock architecture are not close, they resembled more modern rifles stocking. In my opinion, iron furniture was the most produced or the most survived. The Hawken rifle was not a prolific rifle, it was a minority among rifles of the time! There were more Pennsylvania style rifles then anything else!
The Guns that Lewis and Clark’s men had I’m sure influenced guns or the west!
Looking alot like my cva mountain rifle 58cal big bore
My father owned one of those it was a kit that he put together
Just a little fyi the hawkens where from Maryland they worked at Harper's ferry
What is the deal with muzzleloading rifles I tried to buy a Kentucky percussion rifle kit from a gun shop in Kentucky who insisted it had to be sent to an FFL in WA state we have a new assault weapon ban and a standard capacity magazine ban but no laws on muzzle loaders. I checked with the ATF and a percussion muzzle loader doesn't have to be sent to an FFL only rifles that used inline shotgun primers. I am confused by what is going on the ATF doesn't require a Hawken or Kentucky rifle to be sent to an FFL. Are other states just assuming everything is illegal in WA state?
Some dealers will do that. I bought a muzzleloading cannon a few years back, it is technically a muzzleloader but the shipper wanted it sent to a dealer, so, I did. When it got there, the shop owner handed the thing to me and that was it, no paperwork. Some dealers are unsure of other states laws, but, Congress has been leaning on the shipping companies, UPS, Fed Ex, and all the other big companies, to start making it tougher to ship firearms, including muzzleloaders. Some of that may be coming down from who the dealer is using.
I canceled the order an FFL was unnecessary according to the ATF themselves. WA state is very antigun as well as the Biden administration. I didn't want to be on record for a muzzle loader kit- that was ridiculous, I have bought many black powder firearms including pistols and never had to go through an FFL!!
yeah....when folks get stupid like that, i just walk away. God bless them, but i don't have to deal with it. they can demand all they want, but sometimes spinning on your heels and going elsewhere is the answer.
I ended not buying it was a good deal but I didn't want to play their game. Other dealers were out of stock. Now I don't have the extra money.@@myronman3
Try to find a Sharon hawken they are the closest copy I've found
You forgot to mention browning
What are your thoughts on the Browning Mountain Rifle. I’ve been shooting one since the late 70’s. I know Browning threw in their little discrepancies, but for the most part it’s a close copy!
The biggest problem with the Browning Mountain Rifle is that it comes with a single trigger and Hawken rifles had double set triggers.
I find it interesting that all these smallya experts tend to fail to mention the Santa Fe Hawken by Uberti. A very close copy of a Hawken.
Mostly because from 1979-2004 Uberti, who teamed up with Western Arms Corporation made only 10,000 of those guns, averaging around 400 a year. That puts them well below what's considered an average production gun, almost into the realm of a custom Hawken like that of the Green Mountain Rifle Works. The cost was another thing. In 1988 a Uberti Sante Fe Hawken was $329, while a CVA Hawken was $189 and a Thompson Center Hawken, considered the gold standard at the time, was $305, and those two guns were made in tens of thousands compared to the 400 a year from Uberti. The Sante Fe Hawkens are rare to the point of nonexistent. Even the Lyman Great Plains rifle was $315 in 1989 and that was probably closer to a real Hawken despite not being sold as a copy of one. The CVA Mountain Rifles sold for under $300 then and even today, the Traditions Mountain Rifle, which is essentially the same gun CVA sold and now Traditions offers once they took over CVA's traditional muzzleloaders, only costs $550-$600. The point is, the Lyman Great Plains and the CVA/Traditions Mountain Rifle which are not advertised as Hawken rifles, are closer to Hawken rifles than what was advertised as such. A real Hawken, had TWO barrel wedges and the barrel length was 32-34 inches. There have only been four real Hawken made rifles ever with a barrel length under 32 inches. The CVA/Traditions/T/C Hawken all have 28 inch barrels and a single barrel wedge. They're closer to a Horace Dimick made rifle than a true Hawken. The Sante Fe Hawken, is rarer than rare, there are only 2 right now on Gunbroker that I could find and cost well above and beyond the cost of most others. There are several Lyman Great Plains rifles on the same sight right now, ALL of them are cheaper than those Sante Fe Hawkens even though both are no longer being made.
54 CVA Hawken shoots good ! 100 gr FFG 54 CAL Round ball ....
Snob's, they are everywhere. I own a T/C Hawken and guess what, it's a Hawken. My T/C Hawken is vastly superior to Mr. Hawken's original build in every way. So lets just enjoy the side lock sport and stop putting down others that refuse to contract expensive custom build old style rifles that are still not original Hawkens.
Well said !!!
Your TC is more original than this mine is better than yours crowd believes, I have Seen the original Hawken that TC used as a model for there hawken model it was a half stock one barrel key brass furniture rifle with a trigger guard and brass patch box very close in design to TC copy
T/C Hawkens are their style not a copy of originals...but when they say theirs is a Hawken they are not even close...coil spring lock, adjustable rear sight, 28 inch barrel, patchbox, brass furniture, need i say more ?
Actually going through Bob Woodfill's book, one thing that's starting to come to light is the Hawken rifles that were shorter than normal barrel lengths. A couple were built by what appears to either be Sam Hawken or later on by Gemmer when he had control was that they made a small handful of shorter than standard barrel lengths. One is 29 inches which is pretty close. The biggest things that Hawken NEVER did was use brass for their patchboxes or trigger guards and buttplates. They were iron or German silver. The other dead giveaway, was the two barrel wedges. You could make a full stock Hawken, which were made using a T/C if you replace the sights, I've got a buckhorn now on my T/C Hawken and replace the lock with an L & R. With the full stock that you can get from Track of the Wolf, you can get very close to an original Hawken that way.
Here in Pa. and nationwide I have read our youth are not picking up the shooting and black powder hunting...so any BP gun that can be purchased by the average working man is a step forward for the sport...I wish the pgc however would get rid of that regulation mandating BP rifles be of the type made before 1800, let every style of flintlock in even the $100 plastic stocked ones.
its hard to say what is or is not a certain type of rifle these days as most of the written records havent survived
there some pictures that still exist but the problem with the old pictures is the quality you cant see enough detail to say with certainty that one thing was produced by a certain mamufacturer or not the few surviving rifles arent a lot of help either as they are a sample size of one we cant say for certain with a sample size of one that a given manufacturer didnt ever do this or that the sample sizes are to small to make a definitive answer hell we dont even know evdrything there is to know about colts and theres a huge sample of colts that still exist and even some the records from colt still exist woth all that beimg said by whatever hawken variant that that apppeals to you and go humting or competition shooting or even hang it over your fireplace if thats what suits your fancy
Maybe someone should ask Thompson Center who they supossedly copied. Maybe they just designed it themselves and it's just another "Chevy just a different model year. so to speak".
Sadly that's not possible as Warren Center who was the one who came up with making a copy of the Hawken passed away in 2004 and Thompson Center is no longer in business and had been sold to Smith & Wesson prior to that.
I have a Thompson Center Hawkin .54. I have owned it for about 40 years. Nice stock wood on it. It looks pretty close to the single barrel latch at 3:00. The statement that TC in 1970 didn't know anything and just fetched up the name for their first black powder rifle is more than harsh, and you contradict your definition of a "true Hawken" several times. There were apparently as many Hawkens like this one as there were ones with patch boxes. So any rifle today with a patch box claiming to be a Hawken is NOT a Hawken by your standards. The one at 3:00 has bright brass, too. Mine looks almost exactly like that one. The barrel is just a little shorter. But again, unless your rifle weighs 13 pounds and has the genuine length, it's NOT a Hawken, going by your standards.
I used to do a lot of historical re-enacting (over 20 years). We strove to be accurate, but there was an occasional pass-through who would be working overtime to find a flaw. We called those types "buttons and badges." TC Hawken, not a Hawken? Pretty d*mn close.
You have gathered a lot of information about the Hawken rifle. As one who has studied history all my life, I know that details are important and I can appreciate that. But I don't think that here, you're making logical forensic conclusions. You have a good day, yourself.
Sorry, you can love your T/C Hawken all you want, but it doesn't represent a true Hawken, and yes, the people at T/C went half-assed and didn't do their research. If you want the ultimate source from the man who knows more about Hawken rifles than ANYONE else, I suggest you read Bob Woodfill's book, The Hawken Rifle. He's spent some 40 years documenting original Hawken rifles all over America as far as back the first gun. Hawken rifles didn't use brass patchboxes or capboxes (round and small are for caps) at all. They were iron/German silver. Gemmer made Hawkens rarely used any boxes at all. NO Hawken made gun, either by the brothers, Sam Hawken or Gemmer when he owned the company, used a single barrel wedge. Some Hawken rifles weighed upwards of 15 pounds, very few were under 10. The barrel length was on average 32 inches OR LONGER. There are only four known examples of Hawkens shorter than that, the shortest being 29 & 1/2 inch. That's still almost two inches longer than your T/C. It's obvious the folks at T/C found a Dimick, or a competitor of Hawken and said "Close enough", despite the fact that Green Mountain Rifle would make you a copy. It's nice that there are so many accurate or close copies now, Lyman Great Plains, Pedersoli's Rocky Mountain and the Traditions Mountain Rifle. But the T/C Hawken rifle, and I one myself, is not a Hawken or even a real copy. Sorry, you're just going to have to deal with it.
same goes for knives. the bowie is a prime example. in reality the bowie was nothing more than a modified butcher knife, not what many knife makers and owners believe to be (or call) a bowie knife. many of the old knives were different versions of modified butcher knives. some dont even resemble a bowie. go figure.
Excellent video. As a life long afficianado of all things Trapper Years, but without the budget for a custom, I have devoped some picky-ness when it comes to what a CAN afford. Thats said, my eye leads me, not only down th esights, but from the aspect of beauty and handling.
In 1980, I bought teLyman GPR in .50RB. AT the time I already had the Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .50 as well, and appraciated the authentic lines very much. When I considered the purchase of the GPR, the main thing was the lines and all around appearance. The thing is, the lines determine the handling speed with which the rifle comes to the shoulder.
With the CVA, Traditions, and T/C, the drop at the comb is too shallow for me. Too much a nod to modern day bolt actions. There is definitely greater felt recoil when the stock is too much in-line with the barrel. Deeper drop creates a "rolling lift" recoil experience, not a straight back punch. After a day at the range, the discerning shooter will appreciate this when using a cresent butted rifle.
Looking at all the original rifles in this video, it is clear the GPR "type" generic rifles have better ergonomics regarding original lines.
While there is nothing wrong with the CVA - Traditions - T/C guns, anyone who shoots the GPR or it's more expensive cousins, will immedeately know what I'm talking about. I credit the more common types in getting so many people started in BP shooting. Those guns are generally accurate and rugged, and have put meat in the freezer, no doubt about it.
Uh HOKKKKKKIN RIFLE
Hawkin is overrated. Others were technically just as good.