Battlestar Galactica | Cylon Genocide
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- Опубліковано 11 бер 2021
- Lee Adama comes up with a plan on how to use a deadly disease to wipe out the Cylon race for good.
Season 3, Episode 7 "A Measure of Salvation" - D'Anna Biers believes Baltar is hiding information that could be crucial to the survival of the Cylons, and she is willing to take extreme measures to uncover it. Meanwhile, Adama and Roslin decide whether to follow through on Apollo's plan to use a biological weapon against the Cylons.
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I am always impressed with Adama's leadership. He let the two men stand there and give their arguments uninterrupted. He listened. He didn't judge Helo for having an opposing viewpoint. And Helo had the discipline to know when to stop. Good stuff.
BS. One of the problems of the show is everyone does what they want. They always do.
Well, Adama sided with Helo, so kinda not very opposite after all…
@@inesitadeica Adam allowed the execution to go forward. Helo didn't want it too and was probably the one to kill them before they were in range. That is the opposite to agreeing.
@@tpl608 True. Jaded, edgy, undisciplined free-for-all....
@@piotrd.4850ust because things don't always side with "the American way" doesn't make them wrong. Gringos wouldn't have qualms with commiting genocide if they knew they could get away with it.
The best part of this episode is when Helo goes to Athena and tells him what they are about to do and she says: "I made a choice to wear a uniform. To be a person... This Cylon will keep her word, even if it means she's the last Cylon left in the universe. Can a human being do that?"
Yes many have
This was a great plotline. BSG was full of great moral gray scenarios that made it one of the best shows ever made.
Na, TNG did this particular dilemma decades before. Then Janeway came along and just did it.
@@BleakVision I'd respectfully disagree. The moral dilemma may be equivalent, but where BSG succeeded, and TNG failed, is it didn't give us an answer. Picard backs away from his plan the moment he realizes individuality can still exist after life in the Collective, the moment he sees that those drones can be people. BSG takes a look at the decision, and grants that there are good people within this race, within this enemy. The real question is, in a game of survival, does that matter? Do you step away from an option you know for a fact that your enemies would take if they were in your place?
I'd argue that there was an answer given in the Descent 2-parter. Rather than embrace freedom, the disconnected Borg decided to follow a severely unstable Android with massive dad issues because he promised them a stronger collective. Hugh tried to get his fellow Borg to embrace freedom but he was pushed aside as little more than a rabblerowser.
@Douglas Pantera no.
This isbpretty black and white though.
If genocide overlaps into the "grey" area for you, maybe reconsider your moral framework.
"He's delusional. Take him back to the infirmary!"
The thing is even if the plan worked it wouldn’t have necessarily meant the end of the Cylon race. If the infected Cylons resurrected and corrupted their respective model lines, that would’ve just meant resurrection was no longer an option for them. They could still quarantine the infected Cylons and leave them, and then shut down the resurrection process to prevent the virus from spreading any further. This would’ve had the same effect as destroying the Hub but with a lot less work, leveling the playing field and forcing the Cylons to abandon their genocidal campaign or risk permanent death. In the end it wouldn’t have been genocide on the Colonials part, it would have been turning the Cylons mortal.
Not even that. They just shut down Resurrection until the plague burns itself out, then start it up again. Unless the fleet kept captured Cylons prisoner for the purpose of infecting them once they came in contact with a Resurrection Ship to contaminate the Cylon fleet every time they were in range, that would make sense.
Because they hadn't been so far?
that makes sence, but the cylons are unable to reproduce and still age as there built like humans. so that would be the last generation and eventually they would die off. still genocide just slower.
It wouldnt even have been that. It wouldve just wiped out the pursuing fleet. no way for the virus to transmit all the way back to the colonies, the distance specifically is the reason they even need the resurrection ship in the first place. whether they accomplish that by a whole ot of firepower or the virus doesnt really make a difference. plus, when the cylons come to investigate what happened to their fleet, itll be the exact same situation once again, leaving a deadly landmine in the colonials wake that might buy them some time.
But it can create one hell of a mess, one quite hard to solve.
Anyone notice that Helo didn’t leave when the President dismissed him and Apollo? Not until when the Admiral said so. Helo made his case and his declaration that he follows Adama orders not Roslins. She will definitely remember that.
No. That's military discipline. Helo is military and his superior officer was present. It wasn't an act of defiance against Roslin. It was chain-of-command protocol to wait to be dismissed by his Superior Officer.
If the Colonial military is the same as the US, then the President is the Commander-in-Chief. Adm. Adama IS Helo’s immediate superior, but couldn’t the President order the latter if she wanted to?
What about Lee, he didn’t wait for his father to dismiss him. He and the President were strongly in favor of wiping out the Cylons and he left when Roslin excused the two officers.
@@jordanrocksdj Not that i know a thing about the american military hierachy, but i would be surprised if a soldier would take orders from the president when his direct superiors are around.
Soldiers follow orders. Which help HAS disobeyed before because he FELT they were wrong because of his FEELINGS.
@@gasgano8255 then you would indeed be surprised. The President is also the Commander-in-Chief of US Armed Forces, in a tradition dating back to George Washington. If the President ordered a soldier to do something -- and if needed, phrased it as an order -- the soldier would have to comply unless the order violated the Constitution.
I hate the whole "we are no different than they are" line... Hollywood over uses that line.
One of the strengths of this show - They both made excellent points, and Adama never judged either of them for their views.
I still think it's funny that Helo's talking about right and wrong to the guy who's been told he's "So hell bent on doing the right thing, that he sometimes doesn't do the smart thing."
He’s portrayed at times as a very binary character, lacking in nuance, as opposed to Athena who was full of complexities. They served each other well.
Bad idea bringing Helo to that meeting or even letting him know there was a plan. That guy can't think straight with that toaster muffin sitting in his lap all the time.
Helo got Toaster whipped.
The show never failed to ask the big questions. Its so well written.
They really didn't give this storyline enough time, way too big to have dealt with in the scope of a single episode. Could have been practically its own half-season arc.
One of my favourite galactic eps. Incredible at all levels. I hope the rumoured reboot can do this show justice
Why a reboot?
It's not a reboot per se. They're thinking of doing a spin-off movie based on the BSG universe. At one point, Lisa Joy (the writer of Westworld) was working on it.
Two things:
1) Nice flyby and detail of Colonial One at 3:11. I sometimes forget how massive these ships are.
2) I wish the series had more time to expand on the biological differences between the Colonial humans and Earth humans. I know our DNA is compatible but what are some other differences and similarities?
The culture is different a little....they are polytheistic and except for Hinduism, the major religions of earth are monotheistic....please correct me if I'm wrong....
@@sethkimmel7312 Most religions on Earth were polytheistic. Monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam (which are all Abrahamic religions worshipping the same god) only became dominant relatively recently.
@@sethkimmel7312 Hinduism follower can be a believer in one GOD, multiple God and Goddess or no God at all. Yes Hinduism does have it all in it, monotheism, polytheism and atheist. Not here to argue if it's best out in this world, just updating what is there in the fold of Hinduism.
5:03 she was ready to snap his neck.
Don’t blame her one bit. What he said there was some grade-A stupid
Ah my boy Helo. Righteous as ever. You should've joined the Federation Starfleet and not the colonial fleet.
He's the reason humanity survived
And what he said needed to be said. In a situation this morally dicey, you need that opposing view to be aired to ensure an act such as this is properly weighed before the decision is carried out.
@@danielhaire6677 absolutely. The words need to be said. The objections need to be noted. Then the genocide needs to commence.
@@sid2112 Yup. It's about survival against another species that's hunted them to near extinction.
@@Ideo7Z I don't even see a choice there. It's either my species survives or theirs do. Peace was never an option. You don't leave dangerous things lying around the galaxy for anyone. You end the threat.
If you shout at me and I shout back, We are arguing. We limit our conflict to words.
if you then punch me, and I punch back we are fighting. We limit our combat til when one of us falls
If you then draw a knife and I arm myself we are trying to kill each other we stop when one of us has been gravely wounded.
If you kill everyone I know I try to kill everyone you know... We are warring.
To not react in a situation like that is accepting some modicum of defeat, either pride a tooth ect, But to accept those greater losses is to accept death and extermination respectively.
That attitude Helo has is suicide.
This show was so good. It had the courage to explore what it really means to be human.
Lee is a little too happy to see this cylon sickness.
I don't think he's happy necessarily about murdering, but more about about a) realizing the idea and b) realizing it could save all of their lives
no
These are machines. Evil machines that murdered billions of innocents and scattered the survivors to space. I say you give as much mercy as you've been shown.
@@spaceflight1019 Which is how you never make any progress: define your goals and limits by the worst.
@@annoyed707 I go back to what Reese told Sarah Connor about the Terminator:
"Listen and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear and it absolutely will NOT stop!"
The Cylons are sentient machines with one goal: the eradication of their creators, humanity.
Try negotiating with a crocodile and see what that gets you...
Great show.
I would have infected them
Never did like Helo!!
Camera angles were so good
They should have done it, and star trek should have done it to the borg.
That's actually a pretty good example. Exterminate the BORG, entirely, will be that bad? They are a threat for every race on the galaxy. On the universe. They aren't going to stop or surrender, they will never neogitate or talk about. They pushed until the brink where there's no good or bad, there's only survival. It's them or you. So the real question is, what's more important, living with the guilt, or dooming your race to extnition?
@@Veridiano02 False dichotomy. They can be contained without exterminating them.
@Lord Gaylord Ondor I wasn't suggesting the colonials had the means. I'm saying it is possible in principle, which is enough to show the false dichotomy.
So you were ok with what section 31 did to Odo then to try to kill all the changelings? Same thing.
@@Scottlp2 absolutley, kill your enemies and be done with it. Peace through power .....all hail the Terran Empire!
Really hated Helo's Crystalline Entity moment here.
Helo's logic is that he thinks the lion won't eat him because he wont' eat the lion... lol
the best serie
Well a genocide for a genocide does not sound too bad tbh
Considering the Cylons have pushed humanity to the brink of extinction it wouldn't be surprising at all for them to use any means necessary to fight for their existence.
@Lee Adama It's not about being right or wrong, it's about being smart. The Cylon started(restarted) a war with the intent on wiping them out and they nearly succeeded. What would you have them do? Let what's left of humanity be killed off to maintain some moral high ground?
@@dwnkaomwn3953 exactly!
@Lee Adama That doesn't count. They didn't know at the time.
@Lee Adama Ironic you've adopted the handle of the guy advocating wiping out the cylons.
I always thought this was one of those moments were the show tried just a little bit too hard to push the morally grey angle, much like the abortion episode from seasons past. If there were only 10,000 humans remaining, an abortion would never be allowed, it's ludicrous to think otherwise, yet they still had to pretend it somehow would be. Similarly, here the Cylons at this point are one bad day away from ending the human race entirely, it's almost comically stupid to imagine that anyone would ever make any choice but deploying the virus.
yep, even worse, the cylons literally genocidal machines at that point, some started to show potential as more than just a murder machine, but they still hunt the remaining humans and want them extinct or controlled. fighting back any way is not only ok, but a must for them. of course realistically they would not play democracy at this point, they could play civilian oversight over the military dictatorship, but it would have been a military dictatorship from start. (and it would be better, as the could play it as something not nice or acceptable but forced or necessary, then show how much different adama as a dictator compared to cain as a dictator.)
Abortion is a bit more complicated in that situation. Medical necessity should always be allowed, plus we had a formula shortage last year and we have way more production capacity than the fleet could ever reach. The choice to deploy this virus yeah it could wipe out the Cylons, but while they’re dying who’s to say they don’t commit to an Ionian nebula Esq battle to make sure the Colonials don’t survive either.
If it wasn't for Helo the whole shooting match would be over and humanity will be unopposed on its trek to Earth. Just Do It.
and the people who listened to him...
They should have just said and told everyone he decided not to do it. then secretly just execute one infected cylon without telling anybody. The cylon’s would never know it was humans that infected them. The crew would not have to wonder if they did the right thing because only a few would know the truth
I see his point but bruh ... they killed like 20 billion of your Ken folk ... come on
Yup
I like the idea, seriously.
Definitely would have wiped the cylons. Morality is gone in war especially when one side exterminates your population.
When Helo talks about morality I wouldʻve told him to tell that to the 50 billion screaming men, women and children that were vaporized or experimented on in the colonies. Helo the Clown.
In the first cylon war I would have hesitated, but not after they carpet bombed the colonies with nukes and hunted down survivors.
I genuinely do get the argument, but the Helon's argument falls short when entire humanity is at risk of extinction. I don't think they were in a good position to argue morality when they only have handful of survivors with no clear hope (at this time). if you found a relative solution to keep you alive a big longer, you take it. For example, I would side with Helo if colonies weren't hit with multiple nukes and were in cold war against them. But when they are on the run with handful of survivors left with no clear solution to this apocalypse? I would take it.
Push helo out of an airlock...
In a war where genocide has been put on the table already, the other side can put questions about genocide off the table until *after* the war, when the attacked are all that are left. That's not morally grey, nor morally ambiguous; that's necessity. If a population says that all of my kind need wiped out, and acts on it unanimously, then I have to respond to that with their unanimous end, regardless of my own lack of racism, hatred, psycopathy, or sociopathy. We're at the level of survival in the moral argument department at that point, kiddos; and that level trumps all others. Helo's missing the point, jumping the gun, needs to take his wife's survival as a win, and shut up otherwise.
well then as Halo says you are no different than the enemy.
@@hasan_1888 Bullshit.
@@kurtjk01 reacting like this shows that i am right
@@hasan_1888 Incorrect.
@@hasan_1888 No it shows that both of you are naive af
Helo makes a good point but that sacrifice, a part of Humanity's soul, would have been worth it. The majority of the Cylons were trying to wipe out Humanity right up until the end of the series. Calling it genocide is technically correct but killing every single Cylon except for Athena isn't the same as killing every single Human. The Cylons killed children, doctors, teachers, innocent people who never did anything to harm them. Those people don't exist in the Cylon race. It's pure machine built for one purpose: kill all Humans.
What's ironic is that by letting the cylons live helo is single handedly committing to the completion of the genocide for humans.
"Owning the moral high ground is no good if it becomes your grave"
stop talking nonsense
With an attitude like that, I guess you would have supported killing every last german in world war 2?
Explain.
I don't recall that scene and I seen all the series of the rebooted BSG. 🤔
That sounds like a good reason as any to rewatch the show!
"gEnOcIdE, sO tHaTs WhAt wE aRe aBouT nOw?!" Homie, they fucking struck first, they are actively trying to wipe you out.
Yeah its like he would guilt you for launching nukes after the enemy has already launched at you
I dont think the single resurrection ship would reach that level but for the sake of argument, lets say they try to wipe out silons and this works.
The silons arent the machines programmed to kill humans rather it is the reaction to being created to serve as sentient tools.
There is constant cyclical back and forth between men and ai reaching thousands of years back through the galaxy, it really is about the soul of humanity because this huge elephant in the room remains unresolved. This conflict is burden for both and huge block for further evolution, it might be temporary solution that gives them time to build new civilization and fail again.
I suddenly expected to hear:
"The decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of people we are; what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one Cylon. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom: expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn them - and all who will come after him - to servitude and slavery?"
But then I remembered, that in this universe they did this decades ago and humans have to deal with the fallout of their decision. Cylons hat been build as slaves and treated as such, until they rebelled, achieved a truce and had a chance to rebuild and strike back. Now they came to the realization that they became the thing they fought and need the help and compassion from those they nearly annihilated. It is an endless cycle, until one side manages to step back and " be the bigger man" by helping the enemy. This is, in the end, where the show was going, but it had a very grim star trek vibe to it, as if to many wrong answers where found and the federation was never what it is in Star Trek.
I wish they were more season and episode
The second Hilo said genocide if I was adama or commander of the fleet I would have had him arrested sequestered until the operation was completed He's a threat.
Thank god yo aren't in any position of power, 'highlander'🙄
4:13 Darius, from Need for Speed Carbon?
I mean helo knows a thing or two about being stuck on a cylon occupied world alone with no support while simultaneously being manipulated by cylons. But who's keeping count...
Helo only care about his wife that why he is so defensive
Does Jamie Bamber looks only to me as the sexiest BSG boy?
They should have gone with the genocide, in this case only.
And they would have if it wasn't for that bleeding heart Helo.
Genocide isn't that extra slice of pizza you didn't need. Genocide isn't an "oops, sorry, didn't mean it" scenario.
@@HelghastStalker and genocide is ALWAYS wrong. If the only way the 12 colonies could survive was to commit genocide when we as observers know for fact that was not the case that the 12 colonies were no longer fit to exist either
Until the next case comes up, then the case after that, and so on and so forth. As it progresses each case for genocide becomes easier to justify. We just located a planet with abundant resources but it's inhabited by primitives. No problem, we'll just eliminate them and take those resources, after all they're not us and so not really people.
@@nasshoba you just summed up the plot to avatar perfectly
Much of the writing was sharp
I can't be the only one seeing Johnny Rico in Lee here
If the choice were put in my hands, I'd do it... and regret it the rest of my life.
By the end of the series they almost achieved the same thing and this would have saved many lives... but that still doesn't make it right or any easier to sleep at night
This story line was used by Star Trek TNG over a decade early. It was called I BORG
Good point. There is nothing new under the sun. Every possible story has been told in literature and film. Not remembering the recent past is a blessing for script writers, authors and film makers.
The federation planned to infected BORG with free will concept...
No, Colin's should be much more patient ient than all of this. They're functionally immortal. So they shouldn't mind searching for 10,000 years for a new planet.
Sorry but this is one of the times where BSG went off the rails. Their whole race is on the brink of extinction and being hunted daily and yet you have a moral dilemma over something that may even up the odds? Helo should have never been there to be honest.
Maybe your statement just proves that at least on this planet and in our current worldwide situation.....we're still just savages with that line of thinking....and even though this is just a sci-fi tv show....at least they took the moral high ground and refused to be the genocidal race and lower themselves to the level of the enemy.......in effect......proving their evolved humanity to the enemy and not wiping them out.
I love when Adama says "the price of wearing the uniform can be high but sometimes it's exactly high enough. We can and should play god and then wash our hands of what we have created."
No he should have been there, but he should have been put under surveillance after his emotional outburst.
Here’s the problem, despite everything the Cylons didn’t seem committed to wiping out the colonial survivors after season 1 until the battle of the Ionian nebula. Such an attack would probably result in a ton of basestars attacking the fleet, intending to finish them off.
Respect to Helo. If you gonna keep it real. Then keep it real. Call it for what it is. Don't try to cover your savagery. At the time we're the cylons their enemy. Yep. Absolutely. But every reason apollo and lauren had for committing genocide. Could be turned right back onto the human race. They created the cyclons originally. And the cylons learned from the people who created them.
Yup, and the Cylons used what they learned and proceeded to genocide billions of humans in the colonies, went Dr Mengele on female prisoners and then hounded the survivor fleet relentlessly. The humans gave up trying to defeat the Cylons and just keep away after last war because they knew they were outclassed technologically. The Cylons could have just done the same but elected to kill an entire species. Apollo's plan is about survival. There's a component of revenge in there but overall it boils down to saving their species from extinction.
@@Ideo7Z Roslin made that argument. Apollo was mostly arguing that genocide was fine so long as it was against a group he determined didn't fit his criteria for human. Sound familiar?
@@Ideo7Z his entire plan was all about revenge… Not about survival.
I would point out that the cylons deserve to be wiped out of existence then so do the 12 colonies
@@keithziegler8881 The Cylons wanted to genocide humanity so they deserve the same treatment.
If the cylons fought the colonials in a conventional war like the first one they would have lost. The cylons canʻt win in a direct fight, the only reason the colonial fleet was on defense for most of the 1st cylon war was because they attacked right after the 12 colonies all agreed to make peace. This was even before they were united as one government, Battlestarʻs werenʻt even created yet so the whole war was them just trying to catch up. Flash foward 40 years and the colonies were prepared for a direct fight them with over 120 battle stars in the fleet that are all upgraded and new unlike the galactica that was practically going into retirement. The only way for the cylons to win was upgrade their hacking tech which was why using Baltar and getting into the mainframe was the Key for them winning at the start.
I hated the ending here. Helo was such an idiot he's responsible for everyone who dies from this episode onwards.
Strange that they would even need to involve Roslin since it was a military matter and didn't involve the people in the fleet. Odd that Helo was there as well since he wasn't a senior officer
He had been acting Executive Officer, was married to a Cylon, and knew of the situation.
Dude was XO of Galactica.
@4:45 The irony, of Roslin making that comment, shortly before she learned that it was in fact the Colonials who "struck first", and not the Cylons, (S3 Ep. 8 "Hero")...
Apollo was right
Caprica& Caprica 1.5 Seasons are explaining the Cylons'origins...Prequels to Battlestar G
Sorry I'm with Lee, wipe em out
Yup the only choice. Stupid not to. But then again the show would've ended right there.
OK, uncle Joe
Helo was unironically the most level headed and consistent character in the entire series.
Wipe them out. QED
A crime against humanity is a crime against ourselves. It hurts everyone. No one is not victimized by it, and all hold some responsibility for it.
Helo needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.
No. What he was saying needed to be said. When talking about morally gray or even dark scenarios that some may see as necessary or correct, you need the person who takes the opposing moral view to ensure that all aspects are considered before action is decided upon. In ancient Rome, they called such people nay-sayers. Their entire job was to deliberately tear apart arguments and plans and expose their flaws to ensure that an idea wasn't just arbitrarily agreed upon by leaders.
@@danielhaire6677 Well, in cases like this when humanity's very existence is at risk, options wise, nothing's off limits.
@@dwnkaomwn3953 I disagree. A big theme of the show is that it isn't enough just to survive, but that one must be worthy of survival. A race that would choose to commit genocide to protect itself is not worthy of survival. The only ethical course of action against a belligerent force determined to destroy you is to destroy their capability to make war with as little loss of life as is feasible.
Besides, there's no guarantee their plan would actually work. Sure, many cylons would die. But there would likely be many who would avoid infection and survive. The colonials would succeed only in guaranteeing the cycle of violence would continue. Had they done this, events would have played out in such a way that they would almost certainly never have found the new Earth, and the cylons that survived would remain unilaterally committed to the destruction of humanity, and may very well succeed.
@@Arkalius80 And what if it HAD succeeded?
@@Arkalius80 By that logic the cylons SHOULD be eradicated by humanity. They were already defeated once & thought to be extinct but just rebuilt & came back even stronger & nearly wiped out the entire human race. Such an enemy can only be defeated through total annihilation, otherwise they'll just keep rebuilding & coming back.
Welcome to Gaza
I don't get it. Was teh guy in chains a Cylon? Looks human to me. Why are they not concerned that he will cough on them and infect them?
Here's a hint... Watch the show. All of your answers are there, and it's a fun trip.
Lee’s plan mean the human is no better then the Cylon. Genocide is wrong and Helo is right it a crime against humanity.
Lee sniggered then acted like a villain, never liked it.
Did they really have to do that scene with a black actor? Was it on purpose?
Just a reminder. Helo was absolutely right. And Rosalyn and the two Adama's are monsters.
You have to remember that they're seeing this as a way to permanently end the race that committed to near genocide of the human race (going from billions to just under 50000 tends to do that) and has pursued the Galactica and its fleet for years on end (with the only notable time of them temporarily backing off was when they destroyed the Resurrection Ship). Adama's seen first hand what the Cylons were capable of during the First Cylon War and given Roslin's experiences on New Caprica, I don't blame her for taking the stance she did. Not to mention that, thanks to the Cylons, they lost a few thousand people on New Caprica. The same people that essentially showed up and said "Surrender or die", whose idea of coexisting with the humans was making sure that they stayed firmly underneath their boots.
He wasn't.
@@piotrd.4850 He was.
He isnt, he is a fucking traitor who caused unspeakable harm and misery for the rest of the series.