Something not mentioned is that in the Tellius games, any experience NPCs "gain" gets converted into Bonus Experience at the end of the map, so BEXP serves another purpose in eliminating the frustration of NPCs "stealing kills". 3:25 Sorry to "um actually" but the "Clear Bonus" is removed on PoR Hard Mode, it's just turncount and side objectives there. 9:26 What's especially weird is the screen post-map that shows you how much BEXP you earned is actually an unlockable feature for beating the game once, so on your first playthrough you're intended to not even know HOW you're getting BEXP. I agree on how PoR's BEXP encourages side objectives, and I wish something like it would return in a future game because it's a great way to encourage engaging with a map's narrative. Imagine if you got BEXP for every enemy spared in Awakening Chapter 10? I don't personally mind that it's a non-diegetic reward because you always need exp, it's similar to the Xenoblade games giving you exp for finishing sidequests. In a level-based game, exp is the one resource EVERY player will want. (Well, except low-level challenge runs) Based TearRing Saga Sun mention. While I don't have as high praise for that game as many do, I DO think it did "training arc" units right for the most part. And your Pokemon analogy makes sense, it's why I enjoy actually training teams for irl tournaments instead of just hacking them. I prefer RD's BEXP system too, for all the reasons you said. Excluding the Jagen from calculations like that has precedent too: Engage excludes Vander from your army's average level when generating skirmishes. Warriors letting you pay to level people to the highest in your army is a common convenience in newer JRPGs but like you said, requires tweaking to work in a SRPG setting. Even in normal RPGs, capping it at the highest party level can be too much: in Persona 3 Reload you have rare clocks that instantly level people to the highest in the party, in a game where the protag will often be 10 levels above everyone else.
Honestly of all things to be without an in-universe explanation, I think bonus exp is one of 2 where it might be for the best. The other is the turnwheel.
"Hey Soren! Thanks for staying behind for us, I brought you some BEXP for you to level up!" Or my favorite: "I took your turnwheel when you weren't looking." That last one is canon, though.
The cool thing about BEXP is that it doesn’t make you feel bad when you want to promote someone before the chapter starts but don't want to waste 95 EXP points.
On Normal mode, Awakening's Reeking Box pays for itself. They cost 500 each, and like any skirmish, there's always at least one 1000G Bullion the enemy drops, often more for late game maps. Note this is only Normal mode. Hard and Lunatic raise the cost to 4800G.
About the training system in Three Hopes. It works like in most Warriors titles, since Warriors games usually have a big cast and this system is there to help you trying other characters and playstyles. However this combined with the way FE stats work adds some interesting dynamics. Since the growths also are dependent on the class a character is in and Three Hopes allows you to freely switch between unlocked classes, you can influence the stat growth on your chararcters. Plus, on reaching max level you can also reset the lvl of a unit back to Lvl 1, to start over again, leading to some ridiculious min-maxing potential.
One thing you didn't mention is that bonus experience makes it incredibly easy to soft-reset for certain level ups. You can save in the barracks, then level up your marcia and if she doesn't get strength then you reset, level up your soren first and then try leveling marcia again to see if she'll get strength that second time. If you have a few characters you want to level up you can easily figure out an order that gives everyone stats that they want.
The Reeking Box in Awakening spawns a grinding encounter on the location of the map you activate it, as if the encounter spawned randomly, meaning the levels of the enemies are dependent on what map you summon them. So when I play Awakening, I’ll summon enemies in early game maps so I don’t gain too much experience to feel overleveled, while still gaining support ranks because I want to unlock a paralague.
Unless your on Lunatic or Lunatic Plus, where if you sapwn them in ass so as you can, or if you get lucky spawns natrualy when they can. Lunatic will be Level 2o right of the bat but will still be a bit before they go to advanced classes, but they will go from 10 to 20 fast Luantic plus first 3 taht spawn will be level 20 with maxed out stats (All of them will be maxed) then after chapter 5 (I think) will be level 20 advanced Classes with all stats maxed out as well
@@m3mori Thats fair it's not for everyone, like I would appertaite it if the game would at least give me a heads up before just throwing me STRAIGHT into the deep end XD
I've always headcanoned bonus experience as miscellaneous extra resources like you completed a map quickly so now everyone has a little more free time and this unit used it to train and gain a couple of levels or you got a bit more money laying around so you get someone some new armor or something
Just wanted to say I love your videos! Something about your voice is so calming and the content is always so interesting/informative. I’ve rewatched older videos of yours multiple times because it can help ease anxiety for me sometime, so thanks!
I would love if the next FE had a category next to the the Win/Defeat conditions that are just things you can do on that map to get bonuses. The Shura boat map in Conquest is made more exciting because it tells you that you are losing bonus cash by not playing faster for example
New Mystery has the sudo Arena during the battle prep for which ya can trade gold for EXP. But ya still need to provide your own weapons and got to be careful which weapons your units got equiped upon using it. 26:11 I have used Reeking Boxes before and they are a boon to all of those who need to 100% the supports on top of getting exp from those skirmishes. Just careful which part of the overworld ya use them. As that group of Risen will spawn with the levels of that beaten chapter. EXP will vary depending upon where ya spawn them in. Ya earn up to 2000 Gold on average per map beaten from the gold dropped by up to 2 of the Risen. FE14 has something similar to FE13's Reeking Boxes to spawn skirmishes whenever ya want. But based upon where ya want enemies to spawn on the overworld, its gonna be far more pricy than those Reeking Boxes each time ya want extra EXP. Ya still get some gold from it, but on the harder difficulties, but those are diminishing returns each time ya its done.
What you are saying about bonus experience creating a narrative disonance is something i consider to be also true with normal experience as well. And stats.
16:12 oh fun fact about that, pokemon that you train up yourself will obey you no matter what, rare candies or not. the badge thing only applies to pokemon you get from trades (ie. not your pokemon). good video by the way, though i don't care much for bexp myself it's one more thing tellius likes to deviate with from the rest of the series which i think is neat
that changed as of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet, Pokemon you catch at a high level in the wild will have obedience problems, I remember catching a high level Hippowdon in the desert and it still being worth it with how high its stats were
I think "Training" as the bonus experience mechanic would be cool. It's just Bonus experience per chapter but you have to use it that specific chapter and only on units who weren't deployed.
With awakening a reeking box costs 500 on normal and you're guaranteed to get a bullion that sells for 1000 so even regardless of the exp you can do it indefinitely On hard and beyond however the price becomes 4800 to buy on which makes it a much better debate to buy one
27:30 This is pretty exactly how it works in Super Robot Wars. Each enemy the player kills gives experience to level up the pilot, and money to upgrade the mech's stats and weapons during chapter intermissions. Since the pilot and mech have separate stats that develop independently of each other, it's possible to have a really strong pilot in a really weak mech or vice versa.
I like bonus experience as an incentive to clear maps quickly and complete certain side objectives but I don’t like it as a resource that you can dump into a single unit or a few units to turn them into super units without having to go through any actual training process. The way I would implement BEXP would be to keep the objective system from the Tellius games and make it visible to the player, but make it so the experience is automatically distributed to each unit that was deployed at the end of each map kind of like SoV group experience (but without the 99 exp cap and adjusted for each unit’s level so lower level units gain more exp).
Thanks for using my Nabata remix! I think bonus experience could be a little less prone to creating juggernaut units if it was only usable before the next chapter.
As someone who’s used a few reeking boxes in Awakening they create grinding maps that are roughly equivalent to the map area you use it on in terms of enemy level, so they can be pretty good for levels
I enjoyed engage's arena as a BXP system most where you had a bit of extra XP to massage a unit to a promotion they may need. The times I've been level 9 in fates with 89xp is infuriating
The 3 stat level ups in Radiant Dawn are even more enticing on units in that game since the stat caps are often quite low compared to bases and growths in that game. Having a unit reach multiple capped stats is quite common and can happen pretty early on within a specific class tier too. Laguz units also interact with this in another unique way since the way their transformations work resulted in them being given very high HP and Luck growths compared to their other stats and the other stats are more valuable on them than on non Laguz units. What I'm getting at here is that using a Seraph Robe on a Laguz unit to hit their HP cap sooner frees up bonus experience levels to being far better on them than they would otherwise likely be. I quite like this unique sort of interaction we get due to how these things work. On a similar note it lets units with overkill growth rates in certain areas find those growths less wasteful since it then guarantees more specific bonus experience level ups.
I like the idea of bonus exp you can store and give to a unit that could use it. Awakening the random exp bonus is nice but wish it was always given same with a weapon drop. Would make runs more interesting especially early game. That same with villager units could definitely use it to top them off and go from zero to hero in an actual training arc
In the FE-like game I'm developing I want the main use of bonus exp to be bringing neglected units up to speed. Thus I have it scale with level in a way that incentivizes spending it on lower level units, similar to how the player might prefer feeding lower level units kills because they gain more experience. I also use bonus exp as an incentive to think strategically. Since my game does not have perma death I reward more bonus exp when more/all units survive the encounter. This also synergizes well with giving bonus exp to units who fainted early and thus have to catch up a bit.
26:27 reeking boxes (in normal mode, at least) give you gold back when you do the map, so it’s basically free to use. the EXP they give you depends on where on the overworld map you use them, cuz it spawns the enemies where your standing.
I know it’s still different, but I’d give a shout-out to the bonus exp you can earn from some of the newer games from a unit being marked as MVP of the chapter! While it necessitates the unit’s use in battle, it’s still a way for them to receive additional exp and can really help a unit you’re grinding to catch up more quickly. I always think about this because of the Ashen Wolves DLC for 3 Houses. Normally, if I’ve still got most of my divine pulses and I’m cleaning up the last few enemies for my current chapter when a unit gets a really bad level up, I might DP back and let a different unit get the kill instead. I wouldn’t go out of my way to abuse the level-up system - but I might delay this one level to see if it’ll be better in the next chapter :P However, all of those plans get ruined when the unit gets the MVP award anyways, gets the bonus exp, and deals with the bad level up regardless (and it’s too late to DP back) 💀. Always a funny (although very mildly frustrating moment), haha
Honestly a good feature to keep the game from slowing down if you can accumulate exp for how good you play the game. I can see it be fun to boost your healers or lagging units instantly when needed. Healers I usually evolve when they hit 20 to be op but this could make that easier as a result. Or reverse and solo run The later games could definitely use this same as the older ones
I really enjoyed the forced 3 stat effect in FE 10. Like you said it did feel good to use that to shore up weaker stats on units that had really strong growths in a couple places and really weak growths in others. I turned Aran into a nearly stat capped god just for fun one run, and it really didn't get old seeing him and Nephenee steamroll a map by late game. (I like Sentinels, the class aesthetic just felt good after seeing the soldier class being a total joke in 7/8 ).
I believe the Reeking Box scales to the level the maps original battle was. Say the box was used on the first map in the game, the skirmish would be full of enemies scaled to the first map of the game
Bundle BEXP into crystals called embers. Have different type of embers that works exceptionally well on certain class lines. Have chance for great success or super success that gives twice or thrice the normal amount of exp
I always thought of bonus experience as like "training" in the army's downtime. The amount you get in this headcannon is a result of like, better or worse morale as a result of how the battles go
I never knew that bonus experience worked based on side objectives since I don't think the game communicates it at all. I did frequently do them anyway if it seemed appropriate for the story, but I didn't know I was getting anything out of it. (For example. I always made sure everyone made it out in escape missions since I felt bad about leaving anyone behind.) I think it could be better contextualized as "morale", "reputation" or whatever fits with the specific game. The basic idea is that by doing good things via side objectives, your army feels good about what they're doing, so they're more willing to do stuff such as training (to level up). As a bonus, similar to the gold-as-bonus-experience mechanic, using "morale" could open up design space for alternative uses.
I'm mixed on Bonus experience honestly... on one hand, I like not having to suffer staffbotting when I can't afford high EXP granting staves yet (or they just aren't available) to get my Cleric to a usable state, or just bringing any project unit to usable levels. I also like the sorta-exploit that is the ability to guarantee certain levels once you start capping stats. that's really cool. It's also a nice way to promote at base without burning the rare Master Crests. All great things! BUT, there's the weird obfuscated ways to get it, it feels very gamey, especially when you try and maximize it in order to save it for project units, and relying on it too much can end up gimping the unit. If I were to have it return, and I think the bonuses (lol) outweigh the negatives, I think I'd drastically change it up. Instead you pair up units in the Base menu/map, and they grant each other EXP as they train together. two characters of equal level could give like, 50 exp to each, while a drastically higher level character (like the Jiegan) training "with" a much lower level character could give barely any EXP to the Jiegen, but an entire level or two to the project unit. Ideally I'd also implement systems where characters with higher Supports gave more EXP to each other, and shared Weapon Types/classes also gave more, or perhaps contrasting types giving more. like pairing a Swordmaster and a Berserker would give the Berserker more EXP because they're overcoming a disadvantage by practicing against a sword unit. (In that case, I'd judge classes like Hero based off which Weapon Rank is higher, functionally treating everyone like they're mono-weapon). This would give a lot of benefits to the story and worldfeel, since it's literally your units training with each other and how you pair them off. Similar to the Arena in the Somniel I suppose, but WAY more controlled (and less limited. 3 visits a map is TORTURE, and barely even a single level half the time). This would also provide natural caps as you could really only get runaway experience in pairs, or get MORE experience overall by using those higher level units to train weaker ones. I have NO idea how any of that would/could be coded, and it'd prolly be a nightmare though. In all, I think Bonus Exp is an overall good thing, and wish it'd return in some fashion, and am highly disappointed in what I see as its successor in the Arena in the Somniel. It has its downsides, but is a net positive
I absolutely miss BEXP. I absolutely hate grinding and the arena in engage. I think BEXP should be like jt was in FE9. But maybe don't give so much of it out or at least kick behind harder/more interesting objectives like in FE10. I also really miss interesting story side objectives it should be brought back for this too. Infinite grinding between maps is the death of fire emblem.
I think it'd be interesting if bonus experience returned with Radiant Dawn's 3 points per level format, but with being able to choose where those points go (of course limiting it to 1 point per stat. Or 2 if that stat's growth is over 100%). That way bonus experience levels give players the option to fix a unit's flaw or rng trolling before they reach their caps. Then to prevent players from just dumping all levels into Strength/Magic and Speed, i propose that one can only choose a stat if it's below that unit's average stats (rounded down). For example, you can raise your Pegasus Knight's Strength when they're 2 points below average but you can't do the same with the Fighter who got super blessed and is 4 points above average. Nor the Lord who you swear should have more Strength but is actually their average. If you can't use all 3 points for some reason (only two uncapped stats or every stat is at or above average), they get saved for that unit's next bonus experience level. So whenever they get an empty level or two you may get the stats rng denied you of. TLDR: I want bexp to be a way to rectify a unit's shortcomings, rather than a way to powerlevel an unit or make a blob of all capped stats.
The thought I had, Bonus Experience would be like training at the camp, and in the older titles there would be a tactician, so if you were a "wise" tactician, you could train your units more effectively aka "bonus exp" and if you just brute force through, less so, so I never had any qualms about using the experience as it were thinking about it like that for myself.
The way i see it is like this: Bonus EXP is not as intangible as you may think, because when you earn it, you do the right thing, so that could mean that de Bonus EXP is your reward for being a hero and do what's right, so as the hero you are, you can be stronger for the hardship. That's the way I look at it.
The training system from the warriors games is a mainstay for that genre, a lot of the dynasty warriors games and the Zelda ones have it so that you’re not penalised from prioritising one character, and can test out all the different character play styles without feeling like you’re wasting potential (which is a common problem in fire emblem)
Honestly, a good way to fix the issue of dumping massive amounts of BEXP onto one unit is by limiting how many levels they can receive at once. Say, you wanted to dump exp onto Mia but you can only level her up 3 times with BEXP. It helps patch up weaker unit without breaking game as badly. You can still dump all of into one character if you want over time, but you can’t get someone for 5 to 20 in one shot. One idea for a way to implement BEXP into the world is by doing what Valkyria Chronicles 4(and maybe the series). In VC4, by doing the story and side missions, you get points that you can use to train your army. The explanation is that your army is training and doing drills. So maybe in an FE9 remake, BEXP is training with Ike with how much you use determines the level. Like a tiny amount is a light spar, why as a full level is a long training session. That could be the limit, Ike can only train with so many people, so you either lightly spar with many or do seriously train a couple units.
To be fair, Bexp could be explained away as favor from the goddess/divine dragon/whatever higher power the main cast reveres, earned by doing deeds that please them. I'd love for it to return, and I think that a soft cap system would work best, maybe increase the costs more and more for levels the higher above the average level of your party or the recommended level for the map is would be best. Furthermore, it could help incentivize against abusing the timewheel when it inevitably returns, by rewarding you for keeping its usage to a minimum
I remember the Tellious games and they were so good, I would love to see a remake for the switch with a fresh coat of paint and some VA. that would be a shut up and take my money
Hi Lizard! I liked the discussion of bonus experience's role in the in-game universe. I wonder if the diegetic weirdness of bonus experience is part of the reason why it hasn't made a comeback (or if gameplay reasons are 100% of the reason).
I liked being able to shore up my weaker units in FE10 with the BEXP as I felt I got greater value per BEXP spent, even if ultimately I could only bring ten units with me for the final maps. I like deploying units for the map I'm on, and not just because I want a unit to gain experience. In other games, if I want someone to get any development, I need to deploy them, even if I have to on maps where their strengths don't help and they are very limited in what they can do, possibly forgoing a more tactically sensible pick. Or if there is a map late in the game that one unit is good to have in, and the unit is introduced early on, then I have to look into the future and see this unit needs to be deployed on earlier maps or they will fall behind before their potential can be realized. Here, I don't have to play favorites, and can always send the best units for the job and for every map's objectives and terrain. I also like how I can choose to use FE10's experience to shore up weak stats on more lopsided units (even though that makes using master seals and crowns less desirable to use early) or I can just give a small boost to exp gained over time. Yes, Laura has great growths, but the only experience point gained that matters to growths is the last one. You can level a unit up to 99 EXP before each battle and let them gain the last point on their own to still let them try for more stat increases. I do think that BEXP breaks units who cap stats early in an unintended way in FE10 specifically, but I scratch my head on how to prevent that and still keep that aspect that made it truly fun to use.
Bonus exp is nice for leveling up healers, or other painfull to level units. But that's less of a concern in the modern games, where most characters are at least vaguely capable in combat. As for tying it to bonus objectives. It's a nice incentive, but can very quickly start to feel forced and gamey. Especially since it tends to lack the in-world logic that say chests or saving green units has. Anyways, skirmishing maps also solve the problem of generating extra exp. And as long as they're designed to be vaguely balanced and somewhat interesting, they're mostly a better system.
My thoughts on bexp as a whole is... I kinda prefer to not have it? I like that in other games exp as a resource is super limited and that you do need to find ways to train your growth units. I really don't like what Radiant Dawn did though w/ the 3 guaranteed stats on level ups, making it so that bexp is able to drastically change a unit's stat distribution, setting itself far from regular exp mechanics when abused in this sort of fashion. I don't think it needs this distinction at all.
The very first level up from bonus exp i ever got gave 0 bonuses. No HP nothing. It left a bad taste in my mouth for a while since thats still the only time i've seen a level up where nothing increased ^^'
As far as leveling Fiona up without bonus exp, since part 1 is not kind to giving her good levels to get caught up with, In the final level of Part 1, if Jarod breaks his weapon against the Black Knight's armor (or otherwise exhausts its uses without dying) he will regenerate HP and have no weapon to counter with. Hello experience fountain for units.
Reeking boxes in awakening are pretty exploitable on normal mode, since its cost is paid for by a guaranteed bullion drop, and enemies aren’t that challenging. Certain maps are way better to use for training purposes since they might have better choke points to funnel enemies where you want them or terrain bonuses (I found Inigo’s join map really good for setting up a bunch of rallies/ support bonuses late game to keep the desired training unit safe). With the right setup you can see a unit gain 5+ levels, maybe a weapon rank, and even a couple support ranks from a single map, which is funnily enough more time efficient than the dlc exp cheat map. From hard mode this is still doable, but without dlc is way too expensive to do more than once or twice, and you need to be very careful where you place the box and who you wanna train. You can get world spawns, but you have no control over there they show up compared to placing a box yourself on a desired map. Enemies scale pretty steeply from the reeking boxes even in hard mode, and will be considerably stronger than the enemies you fought there originally, so unless you get lucky with the majority of them being a good matchup to your training project they may not even be able to contribute safely (especially on classic mode). Due to spawned enemies scaling to your strongest unit, on Lunatic I’d say it’s only really viable for squeezing out a couple levels on your hard carry to get a desired skill a chapter early. At that point trying to ‘catch up’ weaker units just isn’t worth the risk; you’d be better off spending gold forging a good weapon for them and feeding them kills on a story map One funny quirk of reeking box fights is that all enemies are set to immediately rush the party similar to Engages skirmishes, with the same problem of them becoming way more trouble than they’re worth very quickly. Speaking of Engage, it does have the training grounds usable after each chapter. While it doesn’t give nearly as much exp as other types of bonus experience I’ve used it almost every playthrough to close out some levels between fights (and building emblem ranks, which is its primary purpose). Plus it’s fun watching your units spar, seeing how they match up against each other
The training system from the warriors games is great, but in practice I don’t see it working well for a mainline fire emblem game, in warriors games the level up with gold system exists so that you never feel handicapped from choosing to experiment with all the unique play styles each character has. For it to work in a traditional fire emblem game, it would need to be tweaked significantly or given some drawback. i.e. when using gold to level up, your growths would be restricted to base rates, incentivising players to level up their army through combat, but allowing players the option to boost a weaker unit who is just below a threshold. In most situations in modern fire emblem, it would almost always be better to invest your gold into weapon upgrades instead.
Here is my issue with sparing enemies for BXP. You loose out on map XP, and the BXP requires many more points to get the same benefit from regular XP. Makes more sense to kill the enemies to me. Anyone want to tell me if there is a flaw in my logic?
In Path of Radiance bonus experience isn't used at a 1 to 1 value. By giving your units bonus experience in small increments (what that number is depends on the level of your unit), you can actually go all the way to Lv. 20 in their unpromoted class without ever using more than 100 bonus experience per level! For example, giving a Lv. 4 Soren bonus experience in increments of 6 will cost you 84 BEXP, saving you 7 points from the 91 you would have used normally. It doesn't seem like a lot, but as you get up to higher levels you can save upwards of 40 BEXP per level, which adds up to a ton of extra experience over time. Bonus Experience also has the added benefit of being easily resettable, letting you manipulate your level ups to patch up lacking growths or have stats that exceed your averages.
But the thing with blood runs red is that those vigilante gave you a sword before hand so it might get someone to help them out even if was for rascist reasons. Would you have preferred getting that sword after you not kill those bandits?
I love bonus experience! It's one of my favorite things about the Tellius games. It's one of the main reasons why I always try to complete maps quickly in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. In PoR I like to dump BEXP into Oscar to promote him before Ch 8. Using a good amount on Marcia is pretty common for me too. I do think the RD system is better overall but I like both. If they do it again using the RD method again would probably work pretty well.
Something not mentioned is that in the Tellius games, any experience NPCs "gain" gets converted into Bonus Experience at the end of the map, so BEXP serves another purpose in eliminating the frustration of NPCs "stealing kills".
3:25 Sorry to "um actually" but the "Clear Bonus" is removed on PoR Hard Mode, it's just turncount and side objectives there.
9:26 What's especially weird is the screen post-map that shows you how much BEXP you earned is actually an unlockable feature for beating the game once, so on your first playthrough you're intended to not even know HOW you're getting BEXP.
I agree on how PoR's BEXP encourages side objectives, and I wish something like it would return in a future game because it's a great way to encourage engaging with a map's narrative. Imagine if you got BEXP for every enemy spared in Awakening Chapter 10? I don't personally mind that it's a non-diegetic reward because you always need exp, it's similar to the Xenoblade games giving you exp for finishing sidequests. In a level-based game, exp is the one resource EVERY player will want. (Well, except low-level challenge runs)
Based TearRing Saga Sun mention. While I don't have as high praise for that game as many do, I DO think it did "training arc" units right for the most part. And your Pokemon analogy makes sense, it's why I enjoy actually training teams for irl tournaments instead of just hacking them.
I prefer RD's BEXP system too, for all the reasons you said.
Excluding the Jagen from calculations like that has precedent too: Engage excludes Vander from your army's average level when generating skirmishes. Warriors letting you pay to level people to the highest in your army is a common convenience in newer JRPGs but like you said, requires tweaking to work in a SRPG setting. Even in normal RPGs, capping it at the highest party level can be too much: in Persona 3 Reload you have rare clocks that instantly level people to the highest in the party, in a game where the protag will often be 10 levels above everyone else.
Thanks for the correction on clear bonus, pinned so people can see :)
I thought green unit only give bexp in radiant dawn?
@KEN4K Yeah looking at it I think it's only in RD.
Honestly of all things to be without an in-universe explanation, I think bonus exp is one of 2 where it might be for the best. The other is the turnwheel.
"Hey Soren! Thanks for staying behind for us, I brought you some BEXP for you to level up!"
Or my favorite:
"I took your turnwheel when you weren't looking."
That last one is canon, though.
The cool thing about BEXP is that it doesn’t make you feel bad when you want to promote someone before the chapter starts but don't want to waste 95 EXP points.
Lv 9 Exp 99
On Normal mode, Awakening's Reeking Box pays for itself. They cost 500 each, and like any skirmish, there's always at least one 1000G Bullion the enemy drops, often more for late game maps.
Note this is only Normal mode. Hard and Lunatic raise the cost to 4800G.
Reeking box for dozens of silver weapons stock up in your convoy
Indeed. Love the Reeking Box, and on the higher difficulties, their power scales so the XP is worth it imo.
About the training system in Three Hopes. It works like in most Warriors titles, since Warriors games usually have a big cast and this system is there to help you trying other characters and playstyles.
However this combined with the way FE stats work adds some interesting dynamics. Since the growths also are dependent on the class a character is in and Three Hopes allows you to freely switch between unlocked classes, you can influence the stat growth on your chararcters. Plus, on reaching max level you can also reset the lvl of a unit back to Lvl 1, to start over again, leading to some ridiculious min-maxing potential.
One thing you didn't mention is that bonus experience makes it incredibly easy to soft-reset for certain level ups. You can save in the barracks, then level up your marcia and if she doesn't get strength then you reset, level up your soren first and then try leveling marcia again to see if she'll get strength that second time. If you have a few characters you want to level up you can easily figure out an order that gives everyone stats that they want.
The Reeking Box in Awakening spawns a grinding encounter on the location of the map you activate it, as if the encounter spawned randomly, meaning the levels of the enemies are dependent on what map you summon them. So when I play Awakening, I’ll summon enemies in early game maps so I don’t gain too much experience to feel overleveled, while still gaining support ranks because I want to unlock a paralague.
Unless your on Lunatic or Lunatic Plus, where if you sapwn them in ass so as you can, or if you get lucky spawns natrualy when they can.
Lunatic will be Level 2o right of the bat but will still be a bit before they go to advanced classes, but they will go from 10 to 20 fast
Luantic plus first 3 taht spawn will be level 20 with maxed out stats (All of them will be maxed) then after chapter 5 (I think) will be level 20 advanced Classes with all stats maxed out as well
@ I keep forgetting that people play Awakening on Lunatic. I hate it so much that I just assume no else touches it either. lol.
@@paddlesawtactic9788it’s legitimately unfun for me idk how people do it
@@paddlesawtactic9788 I've beaten both, Lunatic was anger inducing at times but I found it fun, L+ on the other hand was just pure BS XD
@@m3mori Thats fair it's not for everyone, like I would appertaite it if the game would at least give me a heads up before just throwing me STRAIGHT into the deep end XD
I've always headcanoned bonus experience as miscellaneous extra resources like you completed a map quickly so now everyone has a little more free time and this unit used it to train and gain a couple of levels or you got a bit more money laying around so you get someone some new armor or something
Just wanted to say I love your videos! Something about your voice is so calming and the content is always so interesting/informative. I’ve rewatched older videos of yours multiple times because it can help ease anxiety for me sometime, so thanks!
I would love if the next FE had a category next to the the Win/Defeat conditions that are just things you can do on that map to get bonuses. The Shura boat map in Conquest is made more exciting because it tells you that you are losing bonus cash by not playing faster for example
New Mystery has the sudo Arena during the battle prep for which ya can trade gold for EXP. But ya still need to provide your own weapons and got to be careful which weapons your units got equiped upon using it.
26:11 I have used Reeking Boxes before and they are a boon to all of those who need to 100% the supports on top of getting exp from those skirmishes. Just careful which part of the overworld ya use them. As that group of Risen will spawn with the levels of that beaten chapter. EXP will vary depending upon where ya spawn them in. Ya earn up to 2000 Gold on average per map beaten from the gold dropped by up to 2 of the Risen.
FE14 has something similar to FE13's Reeking Boxes to spawn skirmishes whenever ya want. But based upon where ya want enemies to spawn on the overworld, its gonna be far more pricy than those Reeking Boxes each time ya want extra EXP. Ya still get some gold from it, but on the harder difficulties, but those are diminishing returns each time ya its done.
What you are saying about bonus experience creating a narrative disonance is something i consider to be also true with normal experience as well. And stats.
16:12 oh fun fact about that, pokemon that you train up yourself will obey you no matter what, rare candies or not. the badge thing only applies to pokemon you get from trades (ie. not your pokemon).
good video by the way, though i don't care much for bexp myself it's one more thing tellius likes to deviate with from the rest of the series which i think is neat
that changed as of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet, Pokemon you catch at a high level in the wild will have obedience problems, I remember catching a high level Hippowdon in the desert and it still being worth it with how high its stats were
I think "Training" as the bonus experience mechanic would be cool. It's just Bonus experience per chapter but you have to use it that specific chapter and only on units who weren't deployed.
With awakening a reeking box costs 500 on normal and you're guaranteed to get a bullion that sells for 1000 so even regardless of the exp you can do it indefinitely
On hard and beyond however the price becomes 4800 to buy on which makes it a much better debate to buy one
27:30
This is pretty exactly how it works in Super Robot Wars. Each enemy the player kills gives experience to level up the pilot, and money to upgrade the mech's stats and weapons during chapter intermissions. Since the pilot and mech have separate stats that develop independently of each other, it's possible to have a really strong pilot in a really weak mech or vice versa.
I like bonus experience as an incentive to clear maps quickly and complete certain side objectives but I don’t like it as a resource that you can dump into a single unit or a few units to turn them into super units without having to go through any actual training process. The way I would implement BEXP would be to keep the objective system from the Tellius games and make it visible to the player, but make it so the experience is automatically distributed to each unit that was deployed at the end of each map kind of like SoV group experience (but without the 99 exp cap and adjusted for each unit’s level so lower level units gain more exp).
SoV group experience is a good shout, I like that idea
Thanks for using my Nabata remix! I think bonus experience could be a little less prone to creating juggernaut units if it was only usable before the next chapter.
As someone who’s used a few reeking boxes in Awakening they create grinding maps that are roughly equivalent to the map area you use it on in terms of enemy level, so they can be pretty good for levels
I enjoyed engage's arena as a BXP system most where you had a bit of extra XP to massage a unit to a promotion they may need. The times I've been level 9 in fates with 89xp is infuriating
The 3 stat level ups in Radiant Dawn are even more enticing on units in that game since the stat caps are often quite low compared to bases and growths in that game. Having a unit reach multiple capped stats is quite common and can happen pretty early on within a specific class tier too.
Laguz units also interact with this in another unique way since the way their transformations work resulted in them being given very high HP and Luck growths compared to their other stats and the other stats are more valuable on them than on non Laguz units. What I'm getting at here is that using a Seraph Robe on a Laguz unit to hit their HP cap sooner frees up bonus experience levels to being far better on them than they would otherwise likely be. I quite like this unique sort of interaction we get due to how these things work. On a similar note it lets units with overkill growth rates in certain areas find those growths less wasteful since it then guarantees more specific bonus experience level ups.
I like the idea of bonus exp you can store and give to a unit that could use it.
Awakening the random exp bonus is nice but wish it was always given same with a weapon drop. Would make runs more interesting especially early game.
That same with villager units could definitely use it to top them off and go from zero to hero in an actual training arc
In the FE-like game I'm developing I want the main use of bonus exp to be bringing neglected units up to speed. Thus I have it scale with level in a way that incentivizes spending it on lower level units, similar to how the player might prefer feeding lower level units kills because they gain more experience.
I also use bonus exp as an incentive to think strategically. Since my game does not have perma death I reward more bonus exp when more/all units survive the encounter. This also synergizes well with giving bonus exp to units who fainted early and thus have to catch up a bit.
26:27 reeking boxes (in normal mode, at least) give you gold back when you do the map, so it’s basically free to use. the EXP they give you depends on where on the overworld map you use them, cuz it spawns the enemies where your standing.
I know it’s still different, but I’d give a shout-out to the bonus exp you can earn from some of the newer games from a unit being marked as MVP of the chapter! While it necessitates the unit’s use in battle, it’s still a way for them to receive additional exp and can really help a unit you’re grinding to catch up more quickly.
I always think about this because of the Ashen Wolves DLC for 3 Houses. Normally, if I’ve still got most of my divine pulses and I’m cleaning up the last few enemies for my current chapter when a unit gets a really bad level up, I might DP back and let a different unit get the kill instead. I wouldn’t go out of my way to abuse the level-up system - but I might delay this one level to see if it’ll be better in the next chapter :P However, all of those plans get ruined when the unit gets the MVP award anyways, gets the bonus exp, and deals with the bad level up regardless (and it’s too late to DP back) 💀. Always a funny (although very mildly frustrating moment), haha
I love ALL ActualLizard videos!!!! ❤
Honestly a good feature to keep the game from slowing down if you can accumulate exp for how good you play the game.
I can see it be fun to boost your healers or lagging units instantly when needed. Healers I usually evolve when they hit 20 to be op but this could make that easier as a result. Or reverse and solo run
The later games could definitely use this same as the older ones
I really enjoyed the forced 3 stat effect in FE 10. Like you said it did feel good to use that to shore up weaker stats on units that had really strong growths in a couple places and really weak growths in others. I turned Aran into a nearly stat capped god just for fun one run, and it really didn't get old seeing him and Nephenee steamroll a map by late game. (I like Sentinels, the class aesthetic just felt good after seeing the soldier class being a total joke in 7/8 ).
Congratulations on the sponsorship Lizard.
I believe the Reeking Box scales to the level the maps original battle was. Say the box was used on the first map in the game, the skirmish would be full of enemies scaled to the first map of the game
"I can imagine a mech game". Go play Super Robot Wars and see how that game treats money as Bonus EXP for the mechs.
Bundle BEXP into crystals called embers. Have different type of embers that works exceptionally well on certain class lines. Have chance for great success or super success that gives twice or thrice the normal amount of exp
I always thought of bonus experience as like "training" in the army's downtime. The amount you get in this headcannon is a result of like, better or worse morale as a result of how the battles go
I never knew that bonus experience worked based on side objectives since I don't think the game communicates it at all. I did frequently do them anyway if it seemed appropriate for the story, but I didn't know I was getting anything out of it. (For example. I always made sure everyone made it out in escape missions since I felt bad about leaving anyone behind.) I think it could be better contextualized as "morale", "reputation" or whatever fits with the specific game. The basic idea is that by doing good things via side objectives, your army feels good about what they're doing, so they're more willing to do stuff such as training (to level up). As a bonus, similar to the gold-as-bonus-experience mechanic, using "morale" could open up design space for alternative uses.
I often just use bexp to get my healers promoted into doing damage and mages into using staffs
I'm mixed on Bonus experience honestly... on one hand, I like not having to suffer staffbotting when I can't afford high EXP granting staves yet (or they just aren't available) to get my Cleric to a usable state, or just bringing any project unit to usable levels. I also like the sorta-exploit that is the ability to guarantee certain levels once you start capping stats. that's really cool. It's also a nice way to promote at base without burning the rare Master Crests. All great things! BUT, there's the weird obfuscated ways to get it, it feels very gamey, especially when you try and maximize it in order to save it for project units, and relying on it too much can end up gimping the unit.
If I were to have it return, and I think the bonuses (lol) outweigh the negatives, I think I'd drastically change it up. Instead you pair up units in the Base menu/map, and they grant each other EXP as they train together. two characters of equal level could give like, 50 exp to each, while a drastically higher level character (like the Jiegan) training "with" a much lower level character could give barely any EXP to the Jiegen, but an entire level or two to the project unit. Ideally I'd also implement systems where characters with higher Supports gave more EXP to each other, and shared Weapon Types/classes also gave more, or perhaps contrasting types giving more. like pairing a Swordmaster and a Berserker would give the Berserker more EXP because they're overcoming a disadvantage by practicing against a sword unit. (In that case, I'd judge classes like Hero based off which Weapon Rank is higher, functionally treating everyone like they're mono-weapon). This would give a lot of benefits to the story and worldfeel, since it's literally your units training with each other and how you pair them off. Similar to the Arena in the Somniel I suppose, but WAY more controlled (and less limited. 3 visits a map is TORTURE, and barely even a single level half the time). This would also provide natural caps as you could really only get runaway experience in pairs, or get MORE experience overall by using those higher level units to train weaker ones. I have NO idea how any of that would/could be coded, and it'd prolly be a nightmare though.
In all, I think Bonus Exp is an overall good thing, and wish it'd return in some fashion, and am highly disappointed in what I see as its successor in the Arena in the Somniel. It has its downsides, but is a net positive
I absolutely miss BEXP. I absolutely hate grinding and the arena in engage. I think BEXP should be like jt was in FE9. But maybe don't give so much of it out or at least kick behind harder/more interesting objectives like in FE10. I also really miss interesting story side objectives it should be brought back for this too. Infinite grinding between maps is the death of fire emblem.
I think it'd be interesting if bonus experience returned with Radiant Dawn's 3 points per level format, but with being able to choose where those points go (of course limiting it to 1 point per stat. Or 2 if that stat's growth is over 100%). That way bonus experience levels give players the option to fix a unit's flaw or rng trolling before they reach their caps.
Then to prevent players from just dumping all levels into Strength/Magic and Speed, i propose that one can only choose a stat if it's below that unit's average stats (rounded down). For example, you can raise your Pegasus Knight's Strength when they're 2 points below average but you can't do the same with the Fighter who got super blessed and is 4 points above average. Nor the Lord who you swear should have more Strength but is actually their average.
If you can't use all 3 points for some reason (only two uncapped stats or every stat is at or above average), they get saved for that unit's next bonus experience level. So whenever they get an empty level or two you may get the stats rng denied you of.
TLDR: I want bexp to be a way to rectify a unit's shortcomings, rather than a way to powerlevel an unit or make a blob of all capped stats.
The thought I had, Bonus Experience would be like training at the camp, and in the older titles there would be a tactician, so if you were a "wise" tactician, you could train your units more effectively aka "bonus exp" and if you just brute force through, less so, so I never had any qualms about using the experience as it were thinking about it like that for myself.
The way i see it is like this: Bonus EXP is not as intangible as you may think, because when you earn it, you do the right thing, so that could mean that de Bonus EXP is your reward for being a hero and do what's right, so as the hero you are, you can be stronger for the hardship. That's the way I look at it.
The Training system from Three Hopes is in Warriors 1 too, btw
Also Echoes technically has BEXP
The training system from the warriors games is a mainstay for that genre, a lot of the dynasty warriors games and the Zelda ones have it so that you’re not penalised from prioritising one character, and can test out all the different character play styles without feeling like you’re wasting potential (which is a common problem in fire emblem)
Honestly, a good way to fix the issue of dumping massive amounts of BEXP onto one unit is by limiting how many levels they can receive at once.
Say, you wanted to dump exp onto Mia but you can only level her up 3 times with BEXP. It helps patch up weaker unit without breaking game as badly.
You can still dump all of into one character if you want over time, but you can’t get someone for 5 to 20 in one shot.
One idea for a way to implement BEXP into the world is by doing what Valkyria Chronicles 4(and maybe the series).
In VC4, by doing the story and side missions, you get points that you can use to train your army. The explanation is that your army is training and doing drills.
So maybe in an FE9 remake, BEXP is training with Ike with how much you use determines the level. Like a tiny amount is a light spar, why as a full level is a long training session.
That could be the limit, Ike can only train with so many people, so you either lightly spar with many or do seriously train a couple units.
To be fair, Bexp could be explained away as favor from the goddess/divine dragon/whatever higher power the main cast reveres, earned by doing deeds that please them.
I'd love for it to return, and I think that a soft cap system would work best, maybe increase the costs more and more for levels the higher above the average level of your party or the recommended level for the map is would be best.
Furthermore, it could help incentivize against abusing the timewheel when it inevitably returns, by rewarding you for keeping its usage to a minimum
I remember the Tellious games and they were so good, I would love to see a remake for the switch with a fresh coat of paint and some VA. that would be a shut up and take my money
Bonus exp can level units up to the equivalent level of the lord.
Hi Lizard!
I liked the discussion of bonus experience's role in the in-game universe. I wonder if the diegetic weirdness of bonus experience is part of the reason why it hasn't made a comeback (or if gameplay reasons are 100% of the reason).
I liked being able to shore up my weaker units in FE10 with the BEXP as I felt I got greater value per BEXP spent, even if ultimately I could only bring ten units with me for the final maps. I like deploying units for the map I'm on, and not just because I want a unit to gain experience. In other games, if I want someone to get any development, I need to deploy them, even if I have to on maps where their strengths don't help and they are very limited in what they can do, possibly forgoing a more tactically sensible pick. Or if there is a map late in the game that one unit is good to have in, and the unit is introduced early on, then I have to look into the future and see this unit needs to be deployed on earlier maps or they will fall behind before their potential can be realized. Here, I don't have to play favorites, and can always send the best units for the job and for every map's objectives and terrain.
I also like how I can choose to use FE10's experience to shore up weak stats on more lopsided units (even though that makes using master seals and crowns less desirable to use early) or I can just give a small boost to exp gained over time. Yes, Laura has great growths, but the only experience point gained that matters to growths is the last one. You can level a unit up to 99 EXP before each battle and let them gain the last point on their own to still let them try for more stat increases. I do think that BEXP breaks units who cap stats early in an unintended way in FE10 specifically, but I scratch my head on how to prevent that and still keep that aspect that made it truly fun to use.
Bonus exp is nice for leveling up healers, or other painfull to level units. But that's less of a concern in the modern games, where most characters are at least vaguely capable in combat.
As for tying it to bonus objectives. It's a nice incentive, but can very quickly start to feel forced and gamey. Especially since it tends to lack the in-world logic that say chests or saving green units has.
Anyways, skirmishing maps also solve the problem of generating extra exp. And as long as they're designed to be vaguely balanced and somewhat interesting, they're mostly a better system.
My thoughts on bexp as a whole is... I kinda prefer to not have it? I like that in other games exp as a resource is super limited and that you do need to find ways to train your growth units.
I really don't like what Radiant Dawn did though w/ the 3 guaranteed stats on level ups, making it so that bexp is able to drastically change a unit's stat distribution, setting itself far from regular exp mechanics when abused in this sort of fashion. I don't think it needs this distinction at all.
w sponsorship, w video
The very first level up from bonus exp i ever got gave 0 bonuses. No HP nothing. It left a bad taste in my mouth for a while since thats still the only time i've seen a level up where nothing increased ^^'
As far as leveling Fiona up without bonus exp, since part 1 is not kind to giving her good levels to get caught up with,
In the final level of Part 1, if Jarod breaks his weapon against the Black Knight's armor (or otherwise exhausts its uses without dying) he will regenerate HP and have no weapon to counter with. Hello experience fountain for units.
Reeking boxes in awakening are pretty exploitable on normal mode, since its cost is paid for by a guaranteed bullion drop, and enemies aren’t that challenging.
Certain maps are way better to use for training purposes since they might have better choke points to funnel enemies where you want them or terrain bonuses (I found Inigo’s join map really good for setting up a bunch of rallies/ support bonuses late game to keep the desired training unit safe).
With the right setup you can see a unit gain 5+ levels, maybe a weapon rank, and even a couple support ranks from a single map, which is funnily enough more time efficient than the dlc exp cheat map.
From hard mode this is still doable, but without dlc is way too expensive to do more than once or twice, and you need to be very careful where you place the box and who you wanna train. You can get world spawns, but you have no control over there they show up compared to placing a box yourself on a desired map.
Enemies scale pretty steeply from the reeking boxes even in hard mode, and will be considerably stronger than the enemies you fought there originally, so unless you get lucky with the majority of them being a good matchup to your training project they may not even be able to contribute safely (especially on classic mode).
Due to spawned enemies scaling to your strongest unit, on Lunatic I’d say it’s only really viable for squeezing out a couple levels on your hard carry to get a desired skill a chapter early. At that point trying to ‘catch up’ weaker units just isn’t worth the risk; you’d be better off spending gold forging a good weapon for them and feeding them kills on a story map
One funny quirk of reeking box fights is that all enemies are set to immediately rush the party similar to Engages skirmishes, with the same problem of them becoming way more trouble than they’re worth very quickly.
Speaking of Engage, it does have the training grounds usable after each chapter. While it doesn’t give nearly as much exp as other types of bonus experience I’ve used it almost every playthrough to close out some levels between fights (and building emblem ranks, which is its primary purpose). Plus it’s fun watching your units spar, seeing how they match up against each other
The training system from the warriors games is great, but in practice I don’t see it working well for a mainline fire emblem game, in warriors games the level up with gold system exists so that you never feel handicapped from choosing to experiment with all the unique play styles each character has.
For it to work in a traditional fire emblem game, it would need to be tweaked significantly or given some drawback. i.e. when using gold to level up, your growths would be restricted to base rates, incentivising players to level up their army through combat, but allowing players the option to boost a weaker unit who is just below a threshold. In most situations in modern fire emblem, it would almost always be better to invest your gold into weapon upgrades instead.
if i get bonus exp will i level up from twink to hunk like ike? or do i need a timeskip :(
Here is my issue with sparing enemies for BXP. You loose out on map XP, and the BXP requires many more points to get the same benefit from regular XP. Makes more sense to kill the enemies to me. Anyone want to tell me if there is a flaw in my logic?
In Path of Radiance bonus experience isn't used at a 1 to 1 value. By giving your units bonus experience in small increments (what that number is depends on the level of your unit), you can actually go all the way to Lv. 20 in their unpromoted class without ever using more than 100 bonus experience per level! For example, giving a Lv. 4 Soren bonus experience in increments of 6 will cost you 84 BEXP, saving you 7 points from the 91 you would have used normally. It doesn't seem like a lot, but as you get up to higher levels you can save upwards of 40 BEXP per level, which adds up to a ton of extra experience over time. Bonus Experience also has the added benefit of being easily resettable, letting you manipulate your level ups to patch up lacking growths or have stats that exceed your averages.
But the thing with blood runs red is that those vigilante gave you a sword before hand so it might get someone to help them out even if was for rascist reasons. Would you have preferred getting that sword after you not kill those bandits?
0/10 the Manta ad should've been an add for Reptizoo Hides.
LMAOOOO this is actual top tier sponsorship segment
The gold for training in Warriors is actually a system in other Warriors games as well.
“Three Houses doesn’t have a Jagen”
Byleth: What am I, chopped liver?
well yeah, byleth starts at level 1 and is supposed to grow alongside your students. the being a teacher thing really isnt shown in gameplay
I love bonus experience! It's one of my favorite things about the Tellius games. It's one of the main reasons why I always try to complete maps quickly in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. In PoR I like to dump BEXP into Oscar to promote him before Ch 8. Using a good amount on Marcia is pretty common for me too. I do think the RD system is better overall but I like both. If they do it again using the RD method again would probably work pretty well.