Civil War Smith Carbine and its Rubber Cartridges
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2019
- / forgottenweapons
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The US military experimented with a wide variety of breechloading carbines during the Civil War. One of these that got a bit of a head start on the others was the Smith carbine, patented in 1855-57 by Gilbert Smith, a physician from New York. He contracted with Poultny & Trimble of Baltimore - a major arms and military accoutrements dealer - to market the gun, and he received his first military order in February of 1860. That first order was on for 300 guns, but it meant that the design was a known quantity to the military when war broke out. Throughout the war a series on contracts were written for a few thousand Smith carbines as a time, with final deliveries made in June 1865 and a total of just over 31,000 delivered to the military. Prices steadily dropped form $35 per gun before the war to just $23.50 by the final contract.
The Smith was a break action design using a cartridge made of India rubber. It was a capping breechloader, meaning that ignition was provided by a traditional primer on the side of the action, and not through a primer integral to the cartridge. This rubber system was a reliable obturator, and the Smith received generally positive reviews from cavalry units that used it in combat.
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I'm legitimately surprised to hear a story about a Civil War era gun that doesn't end with 'the company collapsed due to poor management/the war ending just as they were ramping up production/both'.
Or they made 3 and a half guns and made off with 10k
Yeah, I was waiting for the "...and then they went bankrupt without delivering them all." When that didn't happen, I was like "Oh. Well done, sirs!"
"Were competent businesspeople" is a rare phrase on this channel.
@@templar804 - I'm wondering if it's just the specific application of "half of all businesses fail in the first 2 years; half of the remainder fail in the next 2 years" idea.
...and in looking it up, it seems that the numbers aren't QUITE that bad, but still not that great. (75% of businesses fail in the first 15 years, not four. Still, not that great, from a statistics standpoint.)
www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1010/top-6-reasons-new-businesses-fail.aspx
@@kevinschultz6091 In this specific case, another factor is that a lot of Civil War era guns on this channel were Confederate, and as we all know they started on the back foot as far as manufacturing know-how and capacity went and it only got worse as the war went on.
"Its the 4th most popular breech-loading carbine of the civil war!"
great thing to stick on the poster
I like the idea that Gun Jesus blesses these weapons before auction.
Can I Get A Witness!?!?!
Ngl if people called me Jesus all the time it would definitely get old... that being said there are worse nicknames I suppose.
I'm not super religious but kinda weird and it would be narcissistic to embrace it
@@evankline759 Yeah. The internet gets really weird about people
How else is he going to get them to sell thousands of dollars over actual value? Rock Island Auctions is extremely overpriced stuff that you can find at estate sales for way cheaper. RIA Auctions is where boomer collectors go to get fleeced. Love Ian and this channel though!
Man, so many civil war carbines. If you ever run out of these to talk about then I don't know what I'll do.
You'll feast on unlimited French weapon videos
I love the look of the smith i shoot a Gallagher actually
@@SlickSixguns N-SSA competitor, by chance?
Smith MD. Discount on gunshot wounds if they were inflicted by my carbine.
Kinda violates the hippocratic oath for a doctor to make guns, doesn't it?
Damn that's a good idea for an RPG campaign.
@@derekk.2263 Not exactly.
While it wouldn't fly nowadays, it actually wasn't that uncommon back then for doctors to participate in the creation of weapons. I think the idea was that it would be better for a doctor's delicate hand to make a humane way to kill, rather than letting the warmongers in the military decide the direction that warfare went.
Of course this is pretty absurd. A weapon is a weapon, and whether their expertise comes from medicine or warfare the result won't be that different.
@@derekk.2263
IIRC the French Guillotine was also invented by an MD. Supposedly to provide a more humane death.
Pass the whiskey
Pastor whiskey
@@kaisaeskola6245 Praise be
I came here to say this
when you're too poor for a sharps rifle so you just try to snipe with the smith
Pass the whiskey
Civil war vet in early crowd control: "you said to use the rubber bullets"
Other guy: "yeah, the ones that shoot the rubber out the end"
Vet: "ohhhhh"
Many years ago when I was just starting in my machining/gunsmithing career, one of the Pietta reproductions came thru the shop where I was working. It truly was a great handling carbine. There were even a dozen reproduction “rubber” cartridges with it. I never got to actually shoot it myself, as it lasted less than three days before one of the local Civil War re-enactors bought it.
I have a Smith Smith Firearm conversion. It has an installed 12 gauge shotgun barrel. A firing pin installed in the receiver connects the hammer to shotshell primer. It has been in my family for more than 70 years, probably much longer. I appreciate Ian's educating me.
10,000 units you say, hmmm and you want a discount. Ok, you can have a discount .... Of 7%....
Robert Norris
Buy it in bulk and save!... 5%
Adds up on a number like 10,000
Henry with a mustache yes but it’s marginal, 15%-20% is pretty good and 30%-40% would be like stealing. The main part with negotiating is to try to minimize their overall profit while enticing them with the fact that they will still get a shit ton of money. That, or they risk losing money with a smaller order or the entire order being trashed.
AlbaPantheraTigris maybe in this modern era but back then for a young country in a costly war? It was around $25,000 which is almost half a million today. Ian also mentioned they went on to purchase 35,000 rifles total.
Anybody else brainfart "rubber bullet" for "rubber cartridge" and wonder why anyone would want non-lethal arms during the Civil War?
Now I've just got an image of a group of rebels yelling "ouch! Ah shit! Dammit somebody shoot these guys!" As a group of calvary ride around them in a circle while shooting them with rubber bullets and laughing hysterically
@Stanley Jedrzejczyk We "get" that, That's why the OP said "brainfart". I think 99.44% of the subscribers to "Forgotten Weapons" are pretty "firearms literate".
@Stanley Jedrzejczyk Aw, bless your heart.
@@jamesslick4790 Ivory certain of that.
Well it wouldn't have been very civil if they were trying to kill each other, right?
What applied to the cavalry also applied to the navy - they were more amenable to new technology. This was Admiral Porter's favorite, and he tried unsuccessfully to get the navy to issue them.
6:23
See what in a moment? We never saw the cartridge xD
Yeah I was halfway expecting an actual cartridge, but natural rubber this old would be rotted to nothing.
Having supper while watching forgotten weapons. A good way to end the day.
Are we gonna has a What Would Smith Do remake of this gun?
And it's just one of those $100 break action shotguns from wall mart. ...
The Smith carbine was in use by the Argetine army in the war against Paraguay 1865-1870.
This gun was used by Dr Henry Wheeler of Northfield, MN to kill Clell Miller and to wound ( horribly ) Bob Younger in the elbow. The famous raid on the bank in 1876.
The rifle Wheeler used belonged to a local hotel, the owners son was Henry's friend & in med. school with him, so he knew right where it was kept, & quickly grabbed it. Years later, it was given to Dr. Wheeler, & it's now on museum display. As a macabre side story, Wheeler claimed the bodies of Clell Miller & Bill Chadwell after the raid, & had them shipped to his med school in Ann Arbor, MI, where they were both disected in anatomy class. Afterward, Wheeler had Miller's skeleton cleaned & professionally mounted, & he kept on display in his office during his entire medical career.
Wow, they pulled it off! 31,000 guns. That’s impressive
Hey Ian, I know I'm a bit late on the draw, but I've actually got an example of a transitional rifle with both swivel and Bar. its pretty beat up and not very well taken care of, but it isn't totally gone.
Very nice presentation on an obscure Civil War weapons. Thanks, Ian.
Great discussion on this gun, and I like your video guy the way he gets all around the gun and down the sights
It always surprises me when people who have no business getting involved in firearms can just come up with decent stuff like this in their spare time for the lols
A vast amount of technology has been invented by country vicars with time on their hands
The inventor of the original Gatling machine gun was a dentist...
"No business getting involved in firearrms"
Well, some of the neatest advancements (in everything) where made by "blokes in sheds" and "Dad's garage".
I say, let the tinkering continue and freedom shall ring.
@@brunoratto253 he was good at causing pain
1 minute after release. Insomnia pays off for once.
As always...
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😇🇫🇷🖖🏻
Kind Thanks for showing this beautiful firearm and its history. Merry Christmas! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania 😊
Thank you ,Ian .
YES... been waiting for you to get to this one for years Ian!
love the simplicity of that lock
i wonder if one can reproduce cartridges using modern silicon moulds
That’d be really cool! Plus it appears to be in good enough condition you could actually fire the thing if you had ammunition, so it’d be really interesting to see a genuine civil war weapon, especially one this unique, being fired
Modern reproductions are being produced, both from rubber and silicon. Italian company Pietta is producing replicas of this carbine and they are making empty cartridges out of brass.
Pretty nice ! Thanks for sharing !
Absolutely beautiful gun.
Wow! Its odd to see rubber cartriges in a military rifle. Although, I wonder truely how well one could load a rifle like this on horseback? I'd imagine it's a little difficult, even with the breechloading system
You gotta remember that a mounted Cavalry trooper is almost 2 soldiers working together. That horse is at the very least as well trained as the trooper on its back. The horse is going to do it's damnedest to not get any surprising movements to the trooper. At that point it's just muscle memory while being bumped about.
In fact, I bet it's easier than reloading a weapon in a moving vehicle.
@@ekscalybur Well, I suppose but the issue is that you have to have a hand on the reigns, and reloading while moving must be a pain.
And in all fairness, I haven't watched anyone reload a breechloader in a vehicle. It would be a neat comparison
@@thelasthunter7906 who said you needed a hand on the reigns? If your horse is trained enough, you can rely on it to stay stable.
@@Guru_1092 Fair enough. I was referring more to having to ride and reload at the same time. Plus the stress of combat would probably make it even harder
I'm no civil war historian but you have to remember that these guys were armed pretty well. They generally carried a revolver and saber as well, if for whatever reason they couldn't hold the reigns and carbine in the left hand while manipulating a new cartridge and the breech with the right, then they would switch to a revolver. I don't think they were trying to use and reload the carbines at a full gallop. Also as mentioned before the horses were well trained and drilled, even at q quick pace that horse will keep a line without much input just based off the other 100 or so cavalry horses beside it. I'm not saying any of us could just jump on and be an immediate pro it's so easy, but this is literally what the men and horses were trained for. Also these carbines are interesting because they truly were designed with the cavalry in mind.
Brilliant breach lock
Thanks ian
Amazing. Never heard of these.
I have been a civil war re-enactor for about 28 yrs.. As I and my father along as my sister enjoyed this hobby, we portrayed mostly a U.S. cavalry unit of our ancestors heritage. My father obtained a Smith carbon that was originally fashioned to be used by cannon crews of that time and outfitted it with the side bar sling ring to use on horseback. Even though it was a simulated battle portrayal, I have to say this carbine was a pleasure to wield in "battles" for many years. The only flaws, which I noticed you didn't cover about the guns design was the double 90 degree fire ports into the chamber, also accessible by a screw to the lock side of the rifle used to clean the carbine. It commonly fouled and prevented proper firing from the blasting cap. (to remedy this we just ported and drilled the pathways larger) Though temperamental of use at times, it was compact, decently weighted and time saver and ease of loading which made it versatile.
I like these civil war era carbines
Solid last name. Now I need this.
Very nice looking gun
Haha I like the sling mount on the left of receiver!
Very cool carbine.
I was looking for this video just a few days ago
Damn!Those New Fangled Cartridges!!
I dont want to be shot with any gun no mater the powder charge lol
Oh, I thought you were gonna show us the cartridge?
Ian found out in the past that a lot of the people who take pictures of old cartridges are overly enthusiastic about enforcing their copyrights. That's why he doesn't include photos of them these days.
Big fan here. I feel like your playlist on the US Civil War should be larger. Springfield and Enfield rifle-muskets, Sharps, Henry, Spencer, LeMat, and any others that I am forgetting. That is just small arms. Throw in crew served weapons like the Gatlin or new breach-loading cannons, this should be much larger.
Im callin it the war of the carbine now theres so bloody many of them
I wonder how well a rubber cartridge would work nowadays. Synthetic rubber seems like it would be a cheaper alternative to brass or steel casings, but on the other hand, they seem like they wouldn't play nice with your average magazine. They might also just melt into the chamber instead of ejecting.
These cartridges aren't meant to slide in a magazine . Treat them like shotgun slug cartridges .
I was so sure that you pushed up an opening that displayed the cartridge from the side and then used a new cartridge to push out the old one, replacing it in the opening. I was wrong. This is the oldest break barrel I have seen though, nice.
Nice looking weapon 🤠👍
Keep it up
The other "Smith" made in Springfield,Mass!
I wonder whether it would be possible to 3d print cartridges for this.
It works. I have shot 3D printed ones with my Smith. But the cartridge breaks so can only use once. But that was printed with PLA. Have printed in PETG so will try agan soon :)
It’s a good looking weapon.
So, I take it the reason for the action opening halfway down the cartridge was so you could pull out the old one?
There’s no extractor or ejector, so most likely
It would be really cool if some manufacturers would make recreations of civil war carbines in modern calibers.
This takes unusual cartridges anyway . And it's straight 50 cal anyway .
I see no ejector or extractor. How do you kick the empty case out? Holding the barrel up and letting the case fall off?
Nice.
Ian are you able to get hold of the XP-100 and make a video on it? That would be swell.
I cant understand how at that point you couldn't figure out how to put a primer on the "cartridge" to make firing that much faster and easier, I can imagine fumbling with priming on horseback : ) to be fair hindsight is easier knowing what we know now
Fun fact: guns designed like that (with a separate primer; Sharps-style rifles are made for a ammunition just like that only the case is brass nor rubber) do not count as "cartridge firearms" and as long as they were made before 1885 or are replicas of such firearms they can be purchased without any license or registration whatsoever. And people here still lament they have restrictive gun laws :) (OK, you need a license for a cartridge-type firearm but if you pass your background check, psychiatric evaluation and an exam - you can get even a machine gun if you are in a collector club)
I was really hoping to see the cartridge
Wait, you're not Skallagrim
I have one of these exact same models that were handed down to me by my grandfather. Can you tell me a site I could go to get cartridges for it?
Very nice gun! Pity, we didn't see a cartridge...
Coffee and forgotten weapons
Dammit, Ian, I was hoping to see some of these cartridges (mainly because I'm morbidly curious whether natural rubber can actually withstand 150 years of oxidation). I suppose it can't...
I have seen a Chassepot with the original rubber obturator still in place. The rubber hardens, shrinks and cracks. I wouldn't expect it to seal anything.
Nice video, but it makes one wonder. Are there no camera's with manual zoom these days?
Second day in a row the upload didn't feature in my feed... YT up to things already?
Oddly enough I held one a few weeks ago.
Would be really cool to be able to shoot one of those rubber case rounds... Bet there's no way to make them, though.
A nice one in my local gun shop for $3000
I think he stated that we'd see the cartridge, but I can't find that part of the video.
I think Skallagrim used to have one of these rifles, loaded with rubber cartridges.
I saw that too. I was wondering if anyone else would mention it.
Awesome vid Iain. If anyone’s wanting to see one of these shooting, visit Skallagrims channel. rubber cartridges and all
Loading Smith Cartridges
Eras Gone Historical Molds
ua-cam.com/video/4HQmiPpY2k4/v-deo.html
Thanks to YT suggestions
Anyone know what those cartridges look like? It'd be fascinating to see what this weapon was designed to fire
youtube. com/watch?v=oM4nE7e1AnE
Is sad that UA-cams old link blocker worked here and it cant stop all the spam bots that plague the site now.
7 years ago, Skallagrim made a demonstration video, including reloading cartridges entirely by hand, no tools.
I wonder if the Smith could've been made into a cartridge conversion easier than other rifles.
It's a cartridge rifle already . Used cartridges are easily reloaded by pouring in fresh powder and inserting a new bullet .
Did I miss the “rubber” cartridge...?
Оно прекрасно!
Load up, load up, load up, with ruuuuuuuubber cartridges...
Bright and early today
anyone else notice that high tone at about 6:00?
It's the ring on the sling bar.
Forgot more on the cartridge which you said would be later in the video I think. LoL
Wow, I'm early!
Beautiful rifle.
I want to see a rubber cartridge.
In the video you called out the military contract price being $32.50 a piece but the description of the video says $23.50
greenboy698 That was by the end of production. I’d imagine with every new contract the price dropped a bit.
NBSV1 ah that does make sense
Calvary are basically just SF guys before they were special.
I wonder if it was hard to get the remaining cartridge out. Seems like it would be a gummy or waxy mess.
It was a pretty hard compound.
They dropped out when reloading after firing .
When you're not good enough to roll with a Navy or Schofield, and too afraid of getting close for the Mare's Leg.
boyyougonnawindupdead
Carbine is good at close range in 1v1s. It deals 70 on body shot, so you can finish them off with melee.
Plus if you have good muscle memory you can just p o p their head.
@@Jacob-yg7lz The balance might've changed a lot, but back in the day every scrub was up on a roof or balcony trying to make Faze clan audition montages instead of actually playing the game. It might not be like that now, I stopped when R_Yell made fanning do less damage than thumb cocking
In terms of effective power, probably exceeds the .45 Colt or .44-40. Not bad for a carbine.
The Smith cartridge was loaded with 50 grns. of powder, which actually made it more powerful than the Spencer, which carried a 45 grn. charge. Both were more powerful than the .45 Colt or .44 WCF.
Now this is epic
What's one of these worth nowadays? I came across one for sale but trying to figure out what's one worth.
About $1000 new (Italian reproduction) according to an older comment .
Do the the spent cases fall out cleanly?
Manual extraction and save them.
Now thats a pretty rifle damn:
Also if youve never shot black powder rifles its a blast, the recoil is different, the sound is different, and the giant puff of smoke makes you feel like some kind of George Washington badass
Be cool to see Uberti make these in .22 and .38spl.
Don't forget matching rubber cartridges as the original cartridges are only made in .50
Remarkable......ok for Ian"s middle name.
I would realy like to see this fire
Aquí de Argentina muy lindo video me gusta las armas importante acsion con las manos x no entiendo la idioma
Gun Jesus delivers again!
Hey man try to get a hand in a Brazilian IA2, It would be amazing