Either Catholicism is True or Nothing Is (w/ Lorelei Savaryn)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 тра 2023
- In this episode, I'm joined by author, educator, and Catholic convert Lorelei Savaryn to talk about her incredible journey out of Evangelical Christianity into the Catholic Church.
A passionate Evangelical, Lorelei and her husband began questioning the foundations of their faith when they encountered questions of "Once Saved, Always Saved," the example of the Early Church, and the beauty of the liturgy. These questions, and more, tugged at Lorelei's conscience and eventually moved her to declare that either Christ founded a Church which exists somewhere, or he didn't found a Church at all.
The rest is a great story, which Lorelei tells so well in this episode. I think you'll love it!
For more from Lorelei visit her author website:
loreleisavaryn.com
Lorelei also writes at:
www.thiscatholicfamily.com/
She also writes for Catholic Mom:
www.catholicmom.com/articles/...
Send your feedback to cordialcatholic@gmail.com.
Sign up for our newsletter for my reflections on episodes, behind-the-scenes content, and exclusive contests at newsletter.thecordialcatholic.com
To watch this and other episodes please visit (and subscribe to!) our UA-cam channel.
Please consider financially supporting this show!
For more information visit the Patreon page. All patrons receive access to exclusive content and if you can give $5/mo or more you'll also be entered into monthly draws for fantastic books hand-picked by me at / cordialcatholic
If you'd like to give a one-time donation to The Cordial Catholic, you can visit the PayPal page at paypal.me/cordialcatholic
Thank you to those already supporting the show!
That’s where I’m at now! I’m starting RCIA this summer/fall.
Awesome!
@@TheCordialCatholic fyi I listened to over 200 hours of your podcast in the last year. I can’t think of better way to convert people than podcast in 2023. Thank you.
Congratulations. I took it later in life just to be confirmed. You will enjoy it and learn a lot
@@christopherlampman5579it's been 9 months since your comment. I'm praying that some of my loved ones find these podcast, that I recently found. Which blows my mind that it's been out here this long and it came to me. You give me hope.
I also hope you have either entered by now or maybe this Easter. 🙏💖
I must have watch a thousand episodes of the Journey Home when I was coming into the Church.
Me too. And it was before they had ads on UA-cam like they do now, which is a shame, because they would’ve made a lot of money off of me! 😂
I love these stories. Cradle catholic, lapsed, and then reverted so powerfully, that I feel like a convert and identify so much with these stories. Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Thanks so much for watching!
@@TheCordialCatholic Can you infallibly declare that your leaders can infallibly declare?
Me too!
God bless us both!❤️😊
@@user-jd9zm4jf3tlike all Catholic beliefs, which include dogmas, Catholics feel they have good reason to believe them. The dogma that the Church will infallibly teach the faith is wrapped up in the many promises, first to Peter and the apostles and the Church through their authority and also the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.
I know Protestants interpret Jesus to say every single person would be guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit or maybe only the elect would be, but there are real problems with that interpretation which have led to many splits in Christendom. Presbyterians (Calvinists) for example teach every believer can have infallible knowledge they are saved. But this is power that Saint Paul himself said he could not have.
Catholics cherish the desire Jesus had made clear in His prayer that His followers would be one, as well as Paul’s admonition for us to agree on everything. The de facto position of all Protestants is that Church entirely left the faith, despite an utter lack of evidence, and Protestant reformers of the 16th century had to get things back on track. They gave up unity for truth, so to speak. So this begs the question, why would Jesus pray for unity if He wasn’t going to protect His Church from error, but actually command his followers to stay in such a Church that taught error? How could He ever force a believer to choose unity against knowing truth or truth against unity. Well the truth is, He wouldn’t
Thank you Lorelei! My conversion to Catholicism started when our pastor did a sermon series called "Calvinism 101". I too just kept saying "I can't be Calvinist".
Thanks for watching!
@Gerschwin Langeveldt. If you just kept saying, “I can’t be Calvinist,” then almost certainly it was poorly explained to you. And I should probably take out that “almost.”
Dear@@ericcarlson9885, let us pray for one another, that the Lord leads us back to His unity.
@@ericcarlson9885 Hey Eric. I've thought about this quite a bit. This was more than 10years ago. One of the big reasons I "couldn't be calvinist" was because I'd already been introduced to natural law and was onboard with Natural law. ie There are some things you could know from the book of scripture and some things from the book of creation. This probably doesn't make a lick of sense to you.. 🙂. It was a very peculiar set of circumstances to be sure. So all this to say... I don't mean that no one can be calvinist. But just that "I couldn't".
@@Gerschwin Yeah, you’re right. It doesn’t make a lick of sense to me! 🤔 There are plenty of Calvinists who utilize Natural Law to varying degrees. My wife and I actually used NFP. And we consider much of Catholic social ethics as “spot on.”
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I connect so much with the loneliness part of that. My conversion felt so lonely. I felt like all the Catholics I knew weren’t interested in their Faith or didn’t practice it and all the Protestants I knew were against it for the most part. I had family very against my converting. I’m so glad I did though and people followed my example as well. Thank you so much for this content!
Yay! Thanks for watching. Glad it’s encouraging!
Find the Latin Mass community and they aren't as uninvolved, unfaithful.
Oh my gosh, you could've taken the words straight from my mouth. This is exactly the predicament I'm in. I became Catholic last month from a non-denominational charismatic background and my family felt viscerally betrayed. It doesn't help that my whole extended family are worldly cradle Catholics who don't give two shits about their alleged faith. My own Grandpa is an ex priest. But the deep transcendant beauty I found through things like biblical typology, which completely changed everything for me, as well as the innately integral Theology of the Body and Adoration of the blessed sacrament, presented something I couldn't set aside- the answer to all answers. To remain protestant at this point would be to give up on Christianity altogether, because as somebody who has been through mental health turmoil and existential crises, having scrambled for something to stand on that doesn't shake or falter, the Catholic Church is the only thing in this life that makes sense. And I need it. That's what they just can't see.
As I cradle Catholic I find this to be true. I myself cannot find Catholics who love their faith or know it well. The person I mostly speak to about faith is protestant. How sad that I cannot share my faith with other Catholics.
@@Psalm51. We are called to evangelize. The Bible says "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." It's an act of charity. Work with your parish; talk to the priest.
For me the MASS was meant by God for His people to come together to praise, worship and adore our God. I was born Catholic and grew up not appreciating the MASS but after not going to MASS for 3 years, I realize the MASS is full of meaning. Every word said in the MASS has a meaning if you only listen and savor each word said in the MASS. After understanding what the MASS was all about, I feel like my heart will leap in joy every time I attend MASS. Parents need to explain to children the MASS because as a child who grew up in the Catholic church, the MASS did not mean anything until I had a true encounter with the devil that I invited into my life and that was the reason I did not attend MASS for 3 years. It was only thru Mother MARY that I did not kill myself.
Thank you for your comment. I am a believer but need to study the meaning of what happens during mass. God bless you!
"Altar call without the altar"--oof.
I pray my family who've fallen away will get linked into podcast and programs like this. Listening gives me hope for them. 🙏💝
Prayer and shows like this!
I have a son who professed to be an atheist for 8 yrs. Come back out of the blue. My wife and I just militantly prayed . St. Monica and Divine mercy chaplet. We stopped pushing and pleading and went about the everyday . I will keep you in our prayers.
@@iggyantioch thank you for taking the time to reply. I pray earnestly and live with the hope that when if I don't see their conversions or reversion in my life it will happen. I lean on the promises of some of the prayer devotions I pray with everyday.
🙏🤲🙏💝
Seeds were planted
God is great 👍
Stay strong 💪
Thank you for the interview. So much of what was discussed hit very close to home for me as a former evangelical. Thankful for stories like hers and channels like this.
Same! Thanks for watching and your kind words.
Thank you for your beautiful and well articulated testimony! Very interesting to hear of your journey to Catholic Church.
Thanks for watching!
David Anders is one of my favorite apologists and one of the best things about EWTN. His story could convert the world.
Brilliant guy whose JH episode I studied at least 2 dozen times when I knew little history. Unfortunately he has fallen in with the Modernists and therein reverted back to being a protest ant and so I don't listen to him now. Still I am grateful for the name that led me deeper in Catholic thinking - Scotus.
This is such a great interview. I am researching her right now.
Thanks for directing me here Halley!
Halley, I can't help but to smile when I see your name...
You are everywhere!
Definitely a faithful Catholic who supports Catholic content.
God bless you! ⚘️
Wow! What an awesome video! I love how loving Jesus was in her from a young age and evolved into a beautiful Catholic wife, mother and author!
Indeed!
Praise the Lord! - THX for sharing your Journey!!
Thanks for watching!
I had left the Catholic Church for well over a couple of decades. And when I started to feel spiritual again, I decided this time I’ve got to seek the real Christianity, the real church, thinking there’s got to be something else besides Catholicism. But I was so relieved when I realized the Catholic Church was the true church. Relieved also because all it took was a really long confession lol. I always feel kinda terrible about people having to go through RCIA.. depending on the church it can be a real ordeal and complete turn off. I’ve heard of people dropping out of RCIA after being told terrible untrue, non Catholic doctrine.
I want you to be wrong but I'm afraid there's not always the best people who lead the RCIA classes. 😢🙏
The beauty of a Catholic marriage, when truly lived out, is very different then a Protestant marriage.
I guess as a Catholic that I really never thought about that until I listened to this story.
Yeah, to me, going to any type of nondenominational protestant type worship service is like being an audience member at a Johnny Carson show, or maybe depending on the age group, if it’s a young church,, like you’re on Jimmy Fallon taping. It’s just so empty and non-spiritual- no matter how hard you try to fake it.
Lorelei's JH episode is a favorite I have recorded and watched many times because some people can tell a story better than others. Her relentless thinking has an order to it. I would say she seeks Order in all things which can only lead to The Church. Having a Catholic Baptism might have been the blessing that kept here curiosity honest.
I watched Lorelei's conversion story on Journey Home program with Marcus Grodi. She's so articulate and smart.
This was so eye-opening, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! Praise God!
Great episode! Thank you! 🙏
Thank you!
Really really good. Thanks
I completely agree with this title.
This is the predicament in which St. John Henry Cardinal Newman found himself before his conversion. Is Jesus the truth or is He not?
Of course He is!
Great comparison!
Thank you
I began listening to the show via Spotify and have been enjoying the guests and their stories very much. Although, I was not aware of what Mr. K Albert Little looked like this whole time. From his voice, I just kept picturing the host looking like Vector from Despicable Me. Lol I don't know why 😅. But I finally found the show here on UA-cam and get to see what Mr Little actually looks like. Boy was I way off haha!! I still love the show, though!
This is the best comment ever.
It's funny how we do get a vision from a voice and are most always way off. I've had that happen with radio personalities.
Catholic all my life except for my evangelical mistake. Their version of Jesus is different from what he taught his body the Catholic Church.
Tim Keller RIP
👍
The eternal security that is discovered easily and repeatedly in the Bible is the only thing that keeps me from Catholic conversion... and that's everyyything. It's very concerning. I think the Protestant church does dozens of things incompletely, has a few serious things wrong, and yet understands the gospel (apart from the ongoing practice of it in the holy eucharist). And the Catholic church gets many many things right; has a couple of questionable things that developed out of good, real things; and has a justification problem. I can't figure out how to reconcile it, though I'm very motivated to do so.
Check out my conversation with Dr. Matthew J. Thomas on justification! And reach out over e-mail if you need more resources.
Wow. That is how all Christians should be. Mum please send my greeting to my fellow sibling. August, Mary, Felicity
If a true believer could lose their salvation then no one would be saved. Is salvation not a gift? Who has to work for a gift, a gift is accepted, and it’s either Christ’s finished work on the cross or we have nothing, “lest any man should boast”.
We agree as Catholics that we do not earn our salvation, but we believe that works are necessary for salvation. It is through grace alone that we get salvation, however, just as faith is necessary so to are works. Salvation is indeed a gift given. However, let's say a bike was given to you as a gift. You would have to work to maintain it and be careful to not lose it or you would end up breaking or losing it.
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," Philippians 2:12
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why fear and trembling if one could lose it? And why work out present tense.
We believe that we are saved, we are being saved and hope to be saved. It is the salvific process. Hope that helps.
If you cannot reject your salvation then once saved, you have no need to keep the relationship with God and that makes God a tyrant. He will always respect your choice to reject Him though your choices and sins. We are only able to hold fast because of His grace and the fellowship witness of others.
@@beviousamen. It’s all over the NT that people are in danger of losing what they’ve gained in Christ.
i think orthodoxy is even more true than that lol
The problem with the Orthodox Church is that it's nationalistic. Christianity must be universal and not tied to a specific country.
@@mariasoniamoreno3433 catholicism isn't universal its just controlled by 1 person. it changes the faith to fit whatever sin ppl find appropriate now. but how is it nationalistic if it just makes it to where ppl can apply christianity to there own life and language
Than nothing is.
Go to the library and check out a book on Western Civilization and how it came to be and what saved it after it was trashed by the barbarians in 476 AD.........you might be surprised by what "NOTHING" accomplished.
* then
Yeah, I probably deserve that. You throw snark out, you get snark back. I was just reacting to the insensitivity of your tagline for this video. (Let’s just say it’s not particularly “cordial.”)
It’s not that I don’t understand the sentiment. In fact, I’m pretty much the same way: either Protestantism is true, or nothing is. I’ve done deep dives into the early church. Enough so that I don’t even know what people are talking about when they say they’ve “read their way into the Catholic Church.” To me, that would be kind of like finding your way into the Ku Klux Klan by reading “To Kill a Mockingbird.” It just doesn’t follow.
Why do Catholics put out testimonies which make no sense? Why do you never challenge your guests when they’re irrational or mistaken? Lorelei “couldn’t find” a Lutheran church IN WISCONSIN!! (That’s kind of like not being able to find a Catholic Church in Boston!) And instead of finding an alternative Evangelical church, she goes to a liberal Protestant one. She finds herself at an ostensibly Reformed church (that doesn’t have a clue how to explain Calvinism) and ends up rejecting the caricature. Then, to climb her way out of the mire of apostasy, she turns to Tim Keller (a Calvinist!) and C.S. Lewis (an Anglican). Of course, somehow or other, this all leads her not only to Rome but to rejecting outright any validity for Keller or Lewis.
She’ll probably be Mormon by next March!
I have had dialogues with Catholics for thousands of hours. In general, I find even the best, most civil ones to be caustic in their content. They bring to mind this passage from Psalm 55:
“His talk is smooth as butter, yet war is in his heart; his words are more soothing than oil, yet they are drawn swords.”
Gavin Ortlund recently put out a video on this, tired to death of all the nastiness that comes back to him online. Even many of the tamer rebuttals are in no sense delivered in good faith.
For myself, I’m close to just wiping the dust off my feet. All the cussing, all the sloppy thinking, all the the name calling…and the complete lack of tact. How is it worth it?
You (and Matt Fradd, I suppose) are actually better than most (but then, that’s not saying much). If Catholicism somehow does end up being true, I’ll point to Catholic Apologists as the ones who totally ruined it for me.
(My grammar error, by the way, was a result of extreme fatigue and of not feeling at all well. You do know that Grammar Nazi’s are about as well liked as incessant punsters, don’t you? Be more cordial to your guests next time. You probably assumed I was a troll.)
@@ericcarlson9885 I get where you’re coming from saying popular catholic apologists have “ruined it” for you. Pop apologists are good at answering Pop objections, but you’re clearly above that level. You might prefer Scholastic Answers type content.
@ericcarlson9885 greetings. I don't get how you get to any other church from reading the early church fathers.
St Ignatius letter to the Smyrnaeans in 107AD, who btw was taught directly by the apostle John: "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains. Wherever the bishop appears, let the congregation be present; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Catholicism is false. You get saved by trusting in Christ ALONE which the catholic church doesn't teach, and you cant mix grace with works. Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” and by grace we are saved. The gospel is very simple, Jesus died for your sins was buried and rose again the third day. If you believe you have eternal life as a result then you have it. Salvation is by grace through faith. "In whom after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise." "By grace you have been saved through faith, AND NOT THAT OF YOURSELVES it is a GIFT of God. Not of works lest any man should boast." Works is human effort of any kind, read the book of John. Jesus clearly gives the criteria for Salvation (unless you think he was lying), "he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life" stop being a work salvationist. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus christ."
Trusting in Christ alone is EXACTLY what the Catholic Church teaches, my friend.
@@TheCordialCatholic so God asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say? I'm curious because I ask catholics this literally all the time and I've never gotten the right answer which is how I know the catholic church at large doesn't teach trust in Christ alone.
@@jsam1997In your first comment it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about . And your second comment is a joke. My guess is you never asked any Catholics your ridiculous question. How about giving us your inspired wisdom about talking to God.
@@jsam1997I love that you alone have the answer to that question as if you have any authority, and everyone else is wrong. So humble and knowledgeable
@Catholiclady3 What "authority" is needed? God gave us his word to tell us the gospel and how to be saved. All we have to do is read it, you are given the holy spirit of God upon believing his gospel according to Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory"
With that holy spirit, we are able to understand the word. The Bible might have complex subject matter that takes years of study to understand, but salvation isn't one of them.
"Either Catholicism is True or Nothing Is"
Hello false dichotomy. Its been seconds since I last saw you. Okay. Maybe it is just clickbait. :)
So... complex things are not true or false. Rather, complex things are, well, complex and they vary in perfection. They have some parts that are true and some that are not. Some of them are more true--more perfect--than others.
In any event, that is great that Lorelei has found a path by which she feels she is drawing closer to Christ. It sounds like it has been a really great match for her and her family. But let us not engage in basic reasoning errors to try to justify our choices or encourage others to do the same.
"The [Roman] Catholic Church has the most logical, historical answers." Yes, for some questions, the Church of Rome, as well as the other many Orthodox and other churches, have answers. However, it doesn't follow from this that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true one. Indeed, it doesn't really survive when an equally critical eye is turned toward its distinctive doctrines such as Papal Supremacy. The Church of Rome and Evangelical churches emphasize different things, have different strengths, and different errors. No church is perfect. If there was such thing, it would become imperfect once you or I enter into it.
"What did the first Christians believe?" That is a GREAT question! They did believe in the Eucharist, and there was a growing (and somewhat arbitrary) structure forming. But there was no "Mass" like there is today. That didn't come for centuries. For the first decades and centuries the liturgies were gatherings of families and friends in private homes, and sometimes quite charismatic. Likewise, there was no Papal Supremacy or infallibility, no mandated private confession, no prayers to Mary or veneration of the saints, etc. So, if what the first Christians did and believed is the measure of truth, then the Evangelicals have some of these things right whereas Rome is in error. And, to be fair, Rome has some important things right where the Evangelicals are (generally) in error. Of course, at this point the Roman apologist starts proclaim "muh development of doctrine," but that is really just a way of saying "my innovations are good and yours are bed... because I said so."
Anyway, nice to hear her story. It is similar to my own of about 30 years ago.
May God save us all.
Veneration of Mary and other saints (especially martyrs) date to the earliest centuries of the church, by the third through fifth centuries you already had Mary’s title as Theotokos, mother of God, churches named after her, for the saints you had altars dedicated to them and the keeping of relics.
@@ModernEphemera wrote: "Veneration of Mary and other saints (especially martyrs) date to the earliest centuries of the church"
Well, that just isn't true. We do NOT find examples of people bowing before (and to), praying to, prostrating before, or kissing images of Mary "and other saints" in the first decades and centuries of Christianity--let alone a mandate to do so under the threat of excommunication/anathema as found in the council of Nicaea 2.
If you want to claim that having "altars dedicated to the saints" is something from Christ and the apostles, then you need to do better than suggest that there is evidence of it 500-plus YEARS AFTER CHRIST. Finding evidence of something five centuries after X, with basically zero of evidence of it prior, is not evidence that it came from X. Rather, it is pretty clear evidence that it did NOT come from X, but was a later addition... which is precisely what the Protestants assert.
As I wrote, these kinds of things are not from Christ and the apostles, but came centuries later. On this and several similar issues, it is the various Protestant/Evangelical churches--not Rome or the other Orthodox--who can rightly claim to be following the earliest teachings and examples from Scripture and the other historical records.
@@philoalethia The canon of scripture was determined 400 years after Christ, Council of Rome, I presume that’s all Catholic/Orthodox hocus pocus to you as well?
@@ModernEphemera wrote, "The canon of scripture was determined 400 years after Christ, Council of Rome, I presume that’s all Catholic/Orthodox hocus pocus to you as well?"
No, that isn't "hocus pocus" (which is a smear of the words of consecration in the Divine Liturgy). It is just straight up misinformation. The "Council of Rome" was not an ecumenical council, and so did not determine the canon for the entire Church. Other authentic, apostolic churches have differing canons. If the "Council of Rome" determined the canon for anyone, then it was only for the Church of Rome.
You've made two posts now, and both have contained falsehoods. Perhaps it would be prudent to either have a serious discussion with whomever is feeding you misinformation, or simply find another source. I understand and sympathize with the desire to promote Rome as the "One True Church," but history clearly demonstrates otherwise, and it is important that we at least attempt to conform our beliefs and lives with the truth.
@@philoalethia I know full well the origin of “hocus pocus” as a Protestant smear on the Catholic Latin Mass, that’s why I used the term lol.
History demonstrates a continuous apostolic church founded by Christ, despite attempts by 16th century and onwards cherry-pickers trying to deny it and draw invisible lines in the first centuries of its existence.
And of course you deflect on the canon of scripture. Hard to reconcile Sola Scriptura with the fact that the canon isn’t found in scripture itself, was determined well after Christ and the apostles, and the Sola Scriptura reformers made some changes to the canon themselves. I guess in Protestantism there are indeed two sources of revelation, scripture and a bunch of 16th and 17th century European dudes telling you what the canon of scripture is because they know better. Sounds a lot like a magisterium.
Catholic is false but the bible is true.
The Stars are fake but the sky is blue!
@kevinmc62
It's not the right example. It's more, like Gods word written by men and inspired by Him. Compared by Gods inspired word twisted and falsified doctrine, by men.
@@eddyrobichaud5832 are you a ProphED of God?
@kevinmc62
Funny guy, no, one day I was searching for the truth like anyone who really wants to know the truth, and God guided me out of this false doctrine religion He would do the same for you if you really wanted to know the truth of the bible.
The Catholic Church gave you the Bible. You’re welcome.