Addressing the Meaning Crisis in a Protestant Land and Age: with John Vervaeke and Jordan B Cooper
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- When @JonathanPageau had a conversation with @DrJordanBCooper • A Conversation Between... I wanted to find a way to bring Jordan more into the conversations in This Little Corner. I appreciated the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series but I had real questions about the episode on Martin Luther. • Ep. 21 - Awakening fro...
In the late spring we tried to organize something but it fell through. Jordan put out a video response to John's Luther episode. • A Critique of John Ver...
John responded. • Professor John Vervaek...
And Jordan did again in kind. • Brief Comments on John...
So we agreed to meet on my channel and have this conversation.
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How many Jordans must John Vervaeke cross before entering the promised land?
😁😁😁
This is like a grim griz comment but with better grammar.
Oh my, that's a good one. :)
@@mlts9984LOL
That right there my friend is a quality joke 😂😂🔥
No gotcha moments or traps, just a wonderful conversation to listen to.
Paul, it’s time to get Hans Boersma on the line. All his books are about Christianity, Protestantism, and the Neoplatonic tradition. I feel like he might be a good addition to the conference in California.
So you follow this stuff! (That's right . . . you studied philosophy)
I’ve been colonized.
YES to Boersma
Very very agree with this comment. It will bring a platonic Anglican voice to the conversation.
When you listen to Jordan Cooper and John Vervaeke discuss ancient philosophy and suddenly get interrupted by an Ad telling you to get an AI-girlfriend.
cognitive dissonance purposefully engineered to permit you to dance the dialectic.
🥰
The temptress, on your hero's journey?
So many books on shelves. :D
It's the book buyer's disease. John Vervaeke hasn't been helpful for me getting over my habit. :)
As a Lutheran monastic this was a great dialogue. Glad to hear these considerations.
Are you a monk?
Yes, please elaborate on that. Are you ELCA Franciscan or an affiliate of St. Augustine House (Or something else entirely)?
The fabled unicorn speaks?
You can't just leave a comment like this then disappear for another eternity. I thought that's why computers were banned in the Lutheran monastery nestled into a crevice on the mount in Dante's purgatorio
LCMS Lutheran and halfway through my spiritual formation program to be a lay monk (oblate) in the order of St. Benedict. We live by the holy rule of St. Benedict and follow monastic practice daily under the care and formation of a Benedictine community (convent, monastery, abbey) However, lay monastics are vocational monastics that live in the world, have families etc…and are required to stay in their particular monastic community several weeks a year during certain feasts days, and seasons. You become apart of your Benedictine community and work side by side with the nuns and monks that live there. Also, we are under the same authority of the Abbot or Abbess and are accountable to them. Once the call is discerned the formation program takes 2 years before you make your oblation at the community and it’s official. I make my oblation in a year. It’s been a life changing experience so far.
Good luck!
I am a Protestant in the classical tradition (reformed camp) and I love Jordan Cooper. I fully agree with this project and I hope for more and more discussion that builds unity among conservative Christian traditions.
I'm a roman catholic but I've learned so much from this. Jordan Cooper seems like a great guy to hang out with. Looking forward to reading his books
"Art before argument."
Artist before art.
Creator before creation.
The best creation is a living creation who can freely immitate his Creator.
Glory to God.
To be quite honest, in a weird way, John has actually helped me grow my faith. Bless you all
The Protestant Avengers are assembling 😊. Great convo 🙏
My husband and I both grew up in the Pentecostal church and are now Anglicans. He’s a priest with the ACNA. I appreciate my upbringing in the Pentecostal church. Unfortunately, it was thin on theology and thick on experiential “worship”. (I use quotes as we, along with much of the evangelical church, considered worship as the music. With liturgy, the priest is the worship leader, and the entire service is worship.) Too often “worship”was contrived emotionalism. But at least there I learned to live into extended periods of prayer time. So my move to Anglican liturgy was a small jump as I saw the liturgy as extended and deeply prayerful worship. And as a Pentecostal friend once quipped “I close my eyes in worship because there’s nothing to inspire me visually“. I love the icons, the colors of the seasons, the incense, the processionals, the reading of the gospel in the center of the congregation, etc.
I've known more than a few with stories like yours.
@@PaulVanderKlay
Yes, our parish is full of those with non-Anglicans backgrounds.
I found this, rather surprisingly, to be a really great discussion.
Why would you be surprised?
@@leondbleondb I thought it was going to be an extrapolation of the back and forth videos on disagreements about Luther, but instead was mostly focused on the rich common ground. I also was unfamiliar with Cooper’s work and didn’t know how much his particular understanding of Protestantism could link with TLC. I suppose I was more surprised by just how great the discussion was.
Thanks Jordan, John and Paul!
A lot of really interesting points were made in this conversation. The scope is so broad it is a wonder it can happen at all.
Huge props to Jordan for engaging intelligently in what could have been, and all too often is, dismissal on heretical grounds. Jordan did an amazing job embodying the traditions he is trained in, he brought them into the conversation in a clear and forthright way.
I really liked Paul as a moderator during this, his presence colored the discussion in such a way it made productive what could have been the mutual banging of heads into a wall.
The work John is doing is so beautiful. I feel like it has taken me a long time to glean what little understanding I have. Where I have found disagreement, I almost always find tremendous misunderstanding. It's so hard to convey the aspectual relationship. It has been hard for me to understand. I can take in the information, I can get the language, but _understanding_ has come slowly, and all my knowledge just gets in the way.
John is extremely careful not to allow the conversation to land on any points of friction for very long.
Such a rich conversation gentlemen. Thank you very much for hosting it Paul. I am hopeful that Jordan will take up John's invitation to contribute to this corner of the internet. I believe we may truly benefit from his perspective.
The way John conducts himself and his vast breath and depth of knowledge is inspirational to me.
Paul, peace be with you and God bless.
It will be good to get a scholarly Lutheran view into the Estuary. And it will be good for Jordan to start engaging with this intellectual stream, which should help him in his Ivy League mission work, as well as his bringing this stream into today's Lutheran thought more broadly.
He's going to have to up his game a bit, though -- thriving in This Little Corner takes a lot of charisma, and/or an authenticity that is hindered as much as helped by too much bookishness.
Thanks to everyone involved in this conversation! Amazing!!!
Great conversation. This is Paul's very best gift - bringing people together to really get down to the nitty-gritty. Thanks, Paul, for all you do.
I have a question and I need it affirmed or clarified... and I've always wondered where Luther comes down on this. Here is my question: I keep thinking that the Orthodox believe God is in everyone whereas the protestantism I know of if (total depravity) God is NOT in people and then and until YOU ask Jesus to come into your life/heart.
You are built in the image of the creator. He is within and throughout you, and everyone, and everything.
There is a tendency in Luther to treat the image of God as having been destroyed in mankind, such that there is no ability to seek God or any goodness, and that it is only as God gives grace to some that that image is restored. The general Catholic tendency (I am Anglo Catholic) which I think may apply to Orthodoxy, is that everyone retains the image of God, but has to be restored to the likeness in Christ, and that human cooperation with the promptings of God's grace plays a part in coming to be justified. It's a huge area of controversy. I have done some readings from a 19th century Catholic theologian Johann Adam Moehler who compares the different Protestant views on such matters. He does find Luther to take an even stronger view of depravity than Calvin, but finds both take too bleak a view of human ability, seeing a gnostic tendency. To be clear, the human being cannot become pleasing to God or attain fellowship with God without God's grace enabling this, but it is wrong to think that prior to that the human will is incapable of attaining some moral good, albeit flawed.
I can't speak for the Eastern Orthodox, nor the bapto-costal protestants; yet in Luther's catechism, one is draw, united, and indwelt by the work of the Holy Trinity. You can ask for Him to leave, but without the Holy Spirit you don't have the breath to ask Him to come.
There is also the whole, "in Him we live and move and have our being" and "created in the image of God"; yet we tend to see God's work in creating and His work in recreating in Christ as distinct. In our Confessions 'total depravity' is described as sin utterly corrupting us yet not changing our nature, simply that apart from God's working (the Holy Spirit moving when and where He pleases) we are not directed toward Christ.
It was a good beginning, if it is the beginning.
Hello John. Really enjoyed your most recent conversation with Peterson. I am mostly in your camp but can't stop being mesmerised by Peterson. Hopefully I am having the best of both worlds. Thank you for keeping things interesting.
I really liked how PVK brought up pentecostalism at 35:00. I think Vervaeke struggles to classify Pentecostalism because it is not tied to or connected to any clear high brow philosophical tradition. So it can't be attributed to Kant or Schleiermacher or whoever. Even it's ties to say German romanticism are extremely vague and weak. Pentecostalism struggles to define itself propositionally because it doesn't have a strong intellectual tradition, but that doesn't mean it isn't accomplishing a lot of what Vervaeke is looking for.
I left my own comment in regards to this, but from my experience in the AG, already having the mystical aspect, they are reaching out to the reformation scholars to bolster their theological and philosophical framework. There will likely be a growing influence from Pentecostal sources in these discussions.
Christianity always was/is/will be a religion without a religion.
It just gets co-opted in a binary, zero-sum game sometimes. ie Antichrist.
I agree, and I'm always glad to see PVK give respect to groups often just given eye rolls by the rest of Christianity.
Sam, if you ever go with a bookcase backdrop I'm unsubscribing from your channel.
@@EmJay2022 deal. Paw Patrol blow up toys will continue.
31:04 WHY is PVK an exception to this rule?
I'll give a few reasons or ideas:
He's temperamentally uniquely fitted to do so (rare).
His upbringing fitted him to do so.
He's not doing this institutionally.
It was the fullness of time for him to do so.
Who is pvk?
I get it now Paul van der Klay ofcourse
@@swerremdjee2769 Paul Vanderklay. This is his channel.
Vervaeke to Cooper: Given your Lutheran background, are you comfortable about entering into this dialogue? (Or some question like this)
With anyone who will dialogue in good faith, as Vervaeke always does, the answer for a Christian must be yes, for many reasons. First, all are after healing of those suffering a crisis of meaning - Christians should desire this independent of “winning someone to Christ.” The earliest Christians comforted sick and dying pagans just because. By demonstrating such love, Christianity grew exponentially.
But second, all truth leads to God. If a Christian has confidence in this statement, what is there to fear about entering into good faith dialogue? If Vervaeke lives long enough, even he will get on board!
It's a matter of weight. Winning someone to Christ has more weight than easing or avoiding suffering. If you lose the first as you win the second, you've lost.
There are too many passages in the Bible talking about giving everything up for Christ, not to be uncomfortable with anything that tilts people away.
Halfway through and although I find it pretty interesting, at the end of the day it really comes down to what the churches are like where I live. A few years back a friend of mine took me to his protestant church and we talked to the pastor afterwards. He was young, very nice and charismatic but I asked him why there wasn’t a crucifix to be seen and he told me they don’t have any because “they are kind of a downer”. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
Do you think you can articulate why that bothered you, and why you felt the need to leave the space posthaste?
I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church, spent time as an adult in an ecumenical Christian community, had three Near Death experiences and later trained in Lutheran theology. I was struck by the contrast between the hymns sung, the liturgical emphasis and the art of the Catholic expression versus the Protestant. The Catholic hymns are a mix of minor and major keys, while the Protestant are mostly major keys (Onward Christian Soldiers etc... conveying the triumph of the Resurrection). The Catholics have the stations of the Cross and Jesus the Christ on the Cross, his suffering "for us" a particular emphasis. The Protestants want to emphasize that the Resurrection from the Dead is the "Good News". This was an important distinction that Luther wanted to make, even designating the preaching of the Good News as a sacrament in order to emphasize its importance. I mentioned my history because every theolog (and each of us is a theolog) constructs their beliefs in dialogue with their culture and their personal experience. My NDEs blew my prior beliefs out of the water; it took years for me to integrate those experiences. A religious community can help us with integration, tether us to the tradition. But bonds can also bind us in ways that preclude the deepening of faith. We must be wise, learn how to weave the threads of personal experience of the Ground of our Being with others' descriptions of their experiences and understandings.
@@mathewhill5556 I don’t think I could, accurately anyways. If I had to guess it would have to do with my belief that in order to understand something on a deeper level you have to confront things that make you feel uncomfortable. I’m skeptical that anything can be truly discovered in an emotionally sanitized environment. Something like that
@@soulfuzz368 Interesting, did you ever find a church in your area where you felt at home?
@@soulfuzz368 Would you have been more comfortable with the reasoning that the empty cross represents Christ's victory over it?
"Luther was very cautious of internal experiences, in terms of them being some kind of supreme authority. And so, the emphasis always was on the external Word of God."
OK, yeah, that hit bedrock for me, right there.
The world does not unfold itself to us without insight. Is the invention of the light bulb to be discounted because it came from someone's imagination?
@@mathewhill5556No. But Edison took how many ideas from his imagination to find a usable filament? Obviously not an authoritative source of information or truth. And notice that he eventually stopped trying new materials because he found an external validation of one certain idea he had.
@@charliecampbell6851 These ideas are not mutually exclusive. It's only when imagination can be married to reality that the lights come on.
@@mathewhill5556 Sometimes imagination or insight is wrong. The whole rationale for Lutheranism is, that even if the pope has some insight like "purchasing indulgences from my treasury will save you or a loved one time in purgatory", a humble priest or even a humble believer can look at the Bible and say, "The pope is wrong, though."
This is also the strictness in hesychasm in Orthodoxy. Many experiences are deemed prelest (pride or inflation), fancy, and even demons or principalities and tempted angels giving false experiences pretending to be angels or the Holy Spirit.
Strict analysis and criterion are applied along with comparisons to the miracles, exorcisms, and visions in scripture as well as in the saints and desert fathers.
An automatic non starter is if this authority is used to change the original apostolic structures of the church, dogmas, giving indulgences etc. This is why they reject the charismatic Christianity and their own radicals like Berdyaev who want to declare all mystic experiences as true.
The see this as a major problem in Catholicism since Frances of Assisi. It becom s more and more about just any religious experience and is a part of what Luther is rejecting. It’s a major force along with scholasticism over rationalizing the church till it is put on the chopping block of reason.
A major issue here is that chiliasm and then millenialism state that not only will the holy spirit be poured out on all nations (without the total context of that line in scripture) but the Holy Ghost will now transcend the Father and Son, along with the rules and discerning criteria of the church. Right after the reformation you see an anabaptist revolt that reinstates polygamy through these claims and a form of communism with ecstatic experiences and mass executions. Then it breaks free into the French Revolution, then communism, a thousand year reich, New Age, wokeness, sci fi religions ancient aliens stuff: all have chiliastic expectations and any that have mysticism declare all their experiences true.
My reaction to Paul's Pietism/Pentecostalism remark is that the point is well founded. The problem with Kant (and Schleiermacher/Ritschl) is that the way in which Lutheran Pietism formed them was in its moral emphasis _divorced_ from its mystical foundation. For Arndt, Spener and co. these are inseparable.
Thus, when we approach the question of "Pietism" in contrast to say, Protestant Scholasticism/paleo-orthodoxy, we don't see these as complementary parts of a comprehensive Neoplatonic whole (Platonic reason with Platonic experience) but as competing visions of Protestant identity, waiting to be swallowed up and replaced by Liberalism.
In many ways, the charismatic renewal within mainline Protestant bodies in the 20th century was the last gasp of the potential for mystical Protestantism. Unfortunately however, at that point Liberalism had all but overtaken the Neoplatonic philosophical underpinnings of orthodox Protestantism and so there was no foundation to give form to the emerging piety (and so it fizzled).
With your terms Liberalism is what Islam was to Rome and Persia (Pietism and Orthodoxy); yet just as in that scenario there are the far flung enclaves that are struggling with what they have escaped with (like Ireland's copyists).
As you say though, our Martel has fallen and perhaps we rely on a Seljuk or Mongol.
Yet now, we have a task before us to integrate the Evangelical with the Catholic; will Lambeth be a new Tours?
@@j.g.4942 I think I followed your analogy. Perhaps, a reproachment is necessary and thus the ecumenical project is obviously unfinished. Granted, I'm not anti-liberal/modern _per se_ (itself built on many of the key emphases of the Reformation)... BUT it is problematic when the tradition itself is swallowed up and replaced by innovation.
Integration not only between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestant, but between tradition and liberalism is also necessary -- which is why secular humanist scientists are also part of this conversation (Peterson, Vervaeke).
From what I've seen of Charismatic churches I think it didn't catch on beyond its little corner because of a profound and worrisome lack of discernment of what was a proper expression of the Holy Spirit. 🤷
@@dotwarner17 I think it was a lot more "mild" in charismatic Protestant/Catholic than in Pentecostalism proper. At least in my experience, more subtle; being tamed through a sacramental and liturgical (as well as confessional) framework within which to reign in the crazies.
Wait. Are you saying charismaticism is dead?
It's incredible how much engagement this one is getting. Lots of Lutherans out there with something to say? (I didn't think that was even plausible...) I guess CRC and Lutheranism are near one another after all.
Putting the DesCART before the horse.... That is the real gold to come out of this 🤣🤣🤣
29:45 My protestant religious tradition(s) did not want to hear any of my thoughts about this stuff. I was told this repeatedly and explicitly.
Just be a good boy
@@Freerilian that’s what they said? Or that’s what I should do? Both? 😂
@@WhiteStoneName choose your own adventure
We’ve just witnessed the logos-agape at work -through dia-logos 🙌🏼 What a great time -isolated atomic moment-to be alive 🕊❤️🔥
A very interesting conversation. I think the Lutheran tradition has a lot of depth that people don't know about, it's liturgy, it's hymns, the third use of the law, and it's emphasis on the assurance we have in Gods forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ, and the peace that it brings. The latter is something we cannot forget and solely focus on "cleaning our room", because we will stumble in our efforts.
I have not listened to John Vaerveke before this, I do not know exactly how to describe his position, and maybe it's silly, and I do not mean any offense, but the term "virtuous pagan" came to mind.
I've rambled enough thanks to both Jordan, John and Paul.
Luther's mysticism is in his hymns.
@@williambranch4283 hm, I haven't thought of it like that before, maybe you're right.
@@killingtime9283 The Table Talks would be mystical if they used a Oija board ;-))
In his recent lecture series John comments on how he prefers Christian neo-platonism over pagan neo-platonism. First before anything you have to know John is a PhD neuroscientist. His work is on 4E cognitive science, it just so happens he comes into alignment with ancient neo-platonic mystical traditions. Such as mystical Christianity and others.
@@williambranch4283 hahaha ^^
the main question in my mind is...who has the biggest book collection?
It's gotta be John, right? I imagine Cooper's got quite the storehouse of systematic theologies and apologias as well.
Firstly, you all like books....a lot
@John Vervaeke I think you would appreciate Hans Boersma on Heavenly Participation, and a number of his other works. He calls himself a Christian Platonist, and is saying so many things that are synched up with your work. The consonance I am hearing b/n you and Jordan here would be quite strong in Boersma's work. He's got some great UA-cam lectures wherein you could quickly get a feel for some of the synergies. Grateful for you, Paul and Jordan here!
00:50:25 Big no, but I appreciate the spirit
Thomas Aquinas NOT a Lutheran??!! I'm shocked shocked!! :)
This is getting very exciting and simultaneously terrifying.
Thank you gentlemen for a very stimulating conversation, so free of the usual polemical rancor of theological videos. As a convert to Orthodoxy, it saddens me to hear of the increasing protestantization of American Orthodoxy. This is exactly what we don't need, in my opinion. I can only hope and pray that these Protestant converts will be deeply transformed by their participation in the life of the Church.
Fun to be a fly on the wall watching Jordan light up John's aspirations, gently waft him back to fundamental distinctives, then offer cultural excellence as an olive branch.
Great talk. Thanks all!
Just a note:
I like your name and my tiny tiny dog is named neutrino,after the smallest particle!
"Pay attention now
I'm standing on your porch screaming out!
And I ain't leaving until you come downstairs.
Keep your head up
Keep your love
Keep your head up
My love"
~ Lumineers _Stubborn_ _Love._
Böhme was late 1500s-early 1600s. To equate him to modern day Lutherans is...a stretch.
We very often anachronisticly import modern consciousnesses and modern views onto historical people.
I wish this discussion about Lutheranism and its relation to a building shared sense of the good, the true, and the beautiful, had happened last November. I'd probably have put more work into going around singing old classic Christmas carols.
I've got good arrangements of a couple of them transcribed into an electronically-available format, suitable for learning harmonies -- now for a format suitable for taking out caroling. More next year, more next year. =)
A truly Lutheran solution here, is to go out and sing, in a way that others can join in. =)
It would be good to see another conversation between these two. The question John raised in his response video concerning monergism in relationship to participation was interesting.
The “meaning crisis” is all a matter of authority and humility, the way God designed.
The Classical Protestant Church my family and I go to is liturgical, it’s happening the Protestant churches are seeing the need to address the meaning crisis and communicating that through liturgical changes to more traditional ones.
The essential distinctive of Christianity, while it contains all true insights and experiences of the hopeful pre-Christian philosophy and aspirations for mystical union, is the centrality of the incarnation of God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The pursuit of a neo-platonic common ground in a pluralist society must always for the Christian be preparing the ground for people to find in Christ Jesus the fulfilment of all that is true and good in the fruits of the non-Christian search. Cooper is right to remark on the wariness that pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite might tend to rather Platonise Christianity than to Christianize Platonism. I would say that, as presented in Albert the Great and Aquinas, Dionysius is essentially a Christian, building on the revelation contained in Scripture, but there are those who wish to misuse his apophaticism to promote an agnosticism and evasion of Christian dogma in pursuit of a generally acceptable syncretist mysticism.
It's interesting how many Lutheran rituals, have propositional value. The whole liturgy is practically a well-argued theological essay, complete with (Biblical) footnotes, set to music. The music is the most enchanted thing about it, really.
Listening to this, I realize how blessed I am to be living in a country with a state church, a monarch as head of both state and church, and at the same time it not being a theocracy. Where the church participates with all societies religious and secular, continuously, there is constant public arts and rituals, and we have national saints celebrated. Like, how did this ever occur? It seems like an impossible thing to emerge out of the past, and an impossible thing to arrive at by trying.
Which country?
@@KevinFlowersJr Norway.
1:00:00 - Putting Descartes before the horse 😂
He's been waiting to use that joke for years. Decades, maybe.
Vervaeke is making a pitch for a question (philosophical alienation / atomization) to which Neoplatonism could be the answer, and a better answer than secularism or materialism. I'm interested in hearing his pitch for Neoplatonism itself. I suspect that Cooper would have to think about it for a while, to put a pitch for Lutheranism / Protestantism / Christianity, in those terms.
Who knows? Maybe the "Silk Road" we need, or could find, could be one that unites these systems-of-uniting, instead of just a network between the lower-level systems.
Very interesting discussion... it was helpful to understand both John and Jordan better.
It is important to put Vervaeke on the spot a bit here, too.
I realise and appreciate the fact that he is no "New Atheist", but what *precisely* differentiates his "project" from other attempts by "humanists" to "do church" without God?
I guess he would answer, "respect for tradition" or something?
But isn't implied, if you are just creating the new tradition whole cloth, that there wasn't anything vital in the first place?
Well maybe it isn't 'arbitrary' and 'whole cloth' is unfair, but for example:
Does Vervaeke at least agree that a core expectation should be that sex is a sacrament with the purpose of sowing seeds for the next generation, and not a mere recreational act?
Or is requiring that not "progressive" enough in this "enlightened" era?
@35:00 Pentecostalism & charismatic Xty in general is definitely *the* underrepresented voice when most people talk about "Christianity" in tlc
agreed
Modern Pentecostalism came from Africa because of an African bringing African Christianity West. Charismatics are Pentecostals too cool to associate with Africans.
Expecting fire works!! Let's Go..
Did you become the artist formerly known as queenie?
@@GrimGriz 😁😁😁
I have been shedding identities, interlopers, trespassers etc. Will see which one will have the last word.
I love Prince so it is still within the Realm 👑 👑 .
Bravo! Really appreciate this one!
I live in Bethlehem PA, founded by Moravians, a protestant denomination that began 100 years before Luther, inspired by the Lollards of England 100 years prior, inspired by Waldensians, Albagensians, etc long before them. The "Protestant" church has always existed, mostly underground until the 14th century.
I would be wary about claiming Albigensians as Bible believing Christians. That seems to be an optimistic view of them for the purpose of making a Protestant case for a continuity of New Testament faith and practice, and quite contrary to the evidence we have about their seemingly Manichaean beliefs. I know the retort is usually that their history is written by their enemies and therefore has false charges, but where is there evidence to the contrary, other than wishful conjecture? It might be supposed that some genuine reform-minded Christians were caught up in being lumped in with heretics, but I think there is no real evidence available to absolve the Cathars/ Albigensians from the charges. I tend to admire St Dominic and his concern for their conversion.
@@anselman3156 I mean. They burned the evidence.
@@freedomslunch You must agree, therefore, that claiming them as Bible believing Christians is just conjecture.
@@anselman3156 It's far more complicated than a yes or no answer. I don't consider catholics and Orthodox to be biblically based entirely, or even most protestants. They got some things wrong. But they were still part of the scripture alone let everyone have access to the Word and steward their beliefs club. So yes they are appropriate to cite. I love the Moravians of old but they weren't entirely "biblical" either.
@@freedomslunch I understand John Wesley was very impressed by the Moravians as a young man, although he later had some disagreements with them theologically. Being Anglo Catholic, I like to identify truths to be found across the different Christian traditions. I think that the Roman Catholic Church of the "Middle Ages", for all its faults on the human level, still was a bastion of Christian orthodoxy, and the home of millions of humble believing Christians just getting on with their lowly lives in faith in Christ. I have no reason to think that the official records concerning the Cathars/Albigensians are false accounts of their heretical ideas.
I know what vervake is saying when he says do Protestants really want to hear this…
he says in general. I feel like he wants to say in his personal experience but maybe I’m wrong.
Because that’s what I see too. It’s really cool to hear these deep and thoughtful Protestants online but in my own life, family and friends (all Protestant) and I work at a lot of churches doing labor work, you don’t see this in churches.
They are still feeling too much like a business office. The congregations often just want to have the preacher tell them something they never thought of, get an emotional moment in the music, and go to lunch afterward or skip for football season…
29:48 it’s a needed message that protestants should hear.
Powerful Convo, maybe my favorite pvk to date!
46:00 There is no soft G sound in classical Latin. There is in Church Latin. Eriugena was born right at 800 A.D. when ecclesiastical Latin is just beginning to used for pronouncing Latin, making it a bit of a gray area. Only classical languages geeks are going to care, but Eriugena is late enough that the ecclesiastical g is probably fine.
Not the comment I was expecting from you. But thanks! 😂
And an Irishman anyway.
The ecclesiastical G is inherently better, and I will fight anyone on this point.
@@fatherbigmac I'll fight alongside you
"Do Protestants want to hear that they're going to have to practice their religion differently if [they're] really going to give the world a viable response to the Meaning Crisis?"
I don't know how many Protestants I speak for when I say this, but it seems to me that the world has been insisting on Christians behaving differently for some time now. Most of that insistence has been seen as conforming to the world rather than to God, and corrupting to the Church.
To about change we would accept, from a Lutheran point of view: Can we receive and spread the blessings of the Law and the blessings of the Gospel, differently? (Does that question even make sense?) Is there a way to be less low-key (even passive) about them, once received? Is religion more than understanding what God wants us to do, trying to do it, holding each other accountable, while showing grace to encourage each other to get back on track?
Do you really want a bunch of Germans and Scandinavians overcome by enthusiasm and boiling out into the world with zeal for our cause? Historically that has been very alarming for our neighbors. Figuring out a properly Christian way to do that might be just the thing we need, though, so I'm willing to listen.
I've read a lot about Francis of Assisi and can't really imagine that he used Plato as a "Theoretical grammar" to understand his relationship with Christ, or needed it. I also know a lot of African Pentecostals who walk in the Spirit with God and have never heard of Plato. Did Jesus or the Apostles have a Greek philosophical framework? Would John know a mystic if he met one that was not wearing a robe? A small house church of poor people in China where they are caught up into heavenly places and have visions...but lack liturgy and art and architecture and philosophy..I would not call that spiritual poverty.
This reply is not intended to counter your point. When you question whether Jesus or the Apostles have a Greek philosophical framework, I would say simply that the New Testament is riddled with the influence of Hellenism, the writers clearly influenced by the Greek philosophy of the time. Although most of the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic, currently most biblical scholars translate from the Greek and Hebrew. Remember, language itself shapes our understanding and ability to make meaning.
@@sheilaeisele8490 The New Testament WAS NOT originally written in Aramaic.
You might if you read in the Bible of spirits and demons pretending to be holy and granting false powers and miracles that shatter in the face of the apostolic dogmas and scrutiny. What you are talking about is chiliasm and the desire for all religious and mystic experiences to be true with a feel good pouring out of the Holy Spirit to remove the dogmas, discipline, and tribulations.
@@Ac-ip5hd that's not what he's talking about
@@sheilaeisele8490 Yes and very much no, speaking from personal experience. I was never in position to grasp the full and profound context of the New Testament until I read the Tanakh
I would love to hear them talk about Aristotle and Plato.
"Are you willing to critique the past?"
At some point in a discussion it is possible to dissolve the past / present distinction, and just concentrate on the idea itself. It comes back to Chesterton's Fence -- you have to gain an understanding of both the past and present. Bias is one problem, but also sometimes what we get from the past doesn't include a detailed enough description of all the thought that went into it, so that understanding is difficult to gain.
I think this is part of what Vervaeke means when he says neither nostalgia nor eutopia.
@@mathewhill5556 Does the impossibility of knowing what all went into the words of the Bible, push us towards giving it the benefit of the doubt, though?
@@jimluebke3869 The Bible holds the past, and the future, but it doesn't hold the present. I don't know what that means, but it has something to do with the idea that there is no being; there is only becoming.
Christians of all stripes need to live out their faith more aesthetically for them to have a better effect.
Because G-d's Kingdom is beautiful.
@@williambranch4283 yes it is!
You know, the sheer weirdness of today's fashions might actually be less hostile to that, than the conformity of the 20th century.
@@jimluebke3869 My parents had little religion, nor did my grandparents. The terrible modernity of the 20th century will hopefully be outlasted.
This should be good. First thoughts are that Luther was not always consistent, and his followers had some scope to develop his ideas in different ways, and to modify them. Cooper's expertise will be invaluable.
How many people today have actually gotten through the dozens of volumes of Table Talk? Daunting.
@@jimluebke3869 I have a four volume set of selected writings, but not the Table Talks, which I only encounter a few quotes from in works about him.
@@anselman3156 I suspect "Table Talk" is a bit like hitting "Play all" on this channel's "videos" tab.
It's kind of a pity, when you think that someday Paul's entire channel will vanish from existence, whenever the last data center it's on, winks out. A dead-tree set of Luther's Table Talk will remain, somewhere. Kind of makes you wish there were some dead trees devoted to Paul's greatest hits, too.
Keep tradition as long as you are able to understand the genesis of the tradition. Many traditions carry on long after their reason for existence has faded away. These "zombie traditions" are vestigial and should be excised for the health of the body.
Or creatively reformulated as has happened multiple times in the RCC.
A significant amount of people who convert from Evangelicalism/Protestantism to Orthodoxy is what Brad Jersak called "Eastern Rite Evangelicalism". And I could not agree more.
It is amazingly individualistic and Protestant to think one can a la carte CHOOSE (deliberative will) their religion or tradition. Yes and no.
Again, this all goes to the God-Man relation and ontology. What is (was, will be) man?
Constantinople was taken by the Turks, just before the Reformation ... so it is right for people who want to be orthodox but don't want to be RCC.
Great conversation.
"The Silk Road stitched the world together"
But there were still boundaries. Each philosophy had its own territory. They could communicate, but didn't rub up against each other much, except at the actual physical borders, which were only contested by two or at most three powers.
Now we're all interpenetrated so much, that we can't treat each other with the benign neglect of those who will never meet. "Something in nature doesn't like a wall, but good walls make good neighbors." Is the problem today the lack of connectedness, or the lack of walls?
Although to be fair, the "Silk Road" is famous for limited-volume luxury trade, not armies.
Christianity is a House; it's built on Christ's teachings and it's primarily furnished with Jewish things, but through the years wings and additions have been added that are filled with many beautiful and valuable Greek, African, and Asian things.
"I'm not saying every Lutheran pastor is neo-Kantian, but a lot of them have been influenced by them to some extent."
I've gone to a number of different Lutheran churches as I've moved around. None of them wore philosophy on their vestments.
Many of them had congregations consisting of a higher proportion of PhDs than you had in the general population, and sermons were pitched towards that level without leaving average people behind. They were intellectual, but more in the sense of being scholarly. High-level Bible studies were at the undergrad seminar level (often diving into the Greek or Hebrew), rather than the Doctor of Divinity vs. Ph.D. thing you see in This Little Corner.
If anyone else could point out to me what I might be missing, having swum in these waters all my life, I'm interested in hearing it. Yes, I've already heard the term "Frozen Chosen". It frequently gets a laugh, especially out of the members who married into the faith.
A mighty fortress is our G-d. This isn't limited to Lutherans.
Neither is "one little word can fell [demons]" (that word being liar), temptations have always been recognised as the lies they are.
Being based on Psalm 46, strictly speaking credit goes to the Jews.
Pentecostalism is very conscious of their lack of philosophical/academic and intellectual pedigree, and they have been working very hard to to make up for it- mostly by seeking out the confessional Protestant academic tradition. At the AG Bible college I went to there was no room for mystical intuition in your research, and most graduates who went to seminary ended up at Gordon Conwell, (partly due to proximity, but that was the standard). So I think there is going to be a meeting in the middle with what Dr. Cooper is doing.
I think Gordon Conwell has more to learn from the Pentecostals than visa versa.
@@transfigured3673 well they are still Pentecostals when they leave, but they don’t reinforce the slack-jawed yokel stereotype. Hopefully it’s a mutually beneficial exchange.
"I have been reading lately a masterly book, Some Leading Ideas of Hinduism, by an experienced missionary and highly trained thinker, the Rev. Henry Haigh. Towards the close of the volume the writer expounds the religious issues of the subtle pantheism of the Brahmins, and elaborately delineates the 'perfect man' of the system, the human person who has worked out, along the prescribed route of restraint, observation and concentration, his mukti, his 'liberation'. What is the condition of the being thus at length set free? He stands disengaged from all relation to other men. To him all persons, all things, all crimes, all virtues, are indifferent, 'He is no man; individuality, energy, interest in great causes, self-sacrificing service for others, these are absent in him. Sainthood, in the Vedanta, is the dropping of manhood.' The Gospel asks of its disciple that he shall wholly surrender himself to the Eternal, yea, till he can say, 'I live, yet not I (Gal. ii. 20). But then, such is its immeasurable difference from the ideal of India, it fills the void left by surrender of self-will not with nothing but with the Lord of Life and Love. 'Not I - but Christ liveth-in me.' And where He lives, this wonderful, this supreme Person. ' who loved me, and gave Himself for me', there the habitation dilates and unfolds itself because of the Inhabitant, The ideal Christian is no passionless vacuum, detached, indifferent. He is indeed a person still, a person whose whole inner world of affection, thought and volition is alive as never before, and in contact more full and tender than ever otherwise it could be with all around him. But the centre of the sphere is occupied now, not by self-love, but by Jesus Christ- radiating His gracious presence through the whole sphere of life." H. C. G. Moule, Studies in II Timothy.
Correct. Hinduism and Buddhism institutionalized mysticism. Vedanta is Buddhism absorbed into and naturalized by Hinduism. Mysticism is the source of new religions, but institutions marginalize or ban it after the founders pass on. There are few Christian mystics compared to countless yogis and monks in the East. Monasticism was invented in Egypt, because that is the only way St Anthony could act out his encounter with the Holy Spirit.
@@williambranch4283 I think it would be a mistake to think of the mystical only in terms of the experiences of the more extreme ascetics, and I would not hold the experiences of "countless yogis and monks in the East" as on a par with the supernatural life of union with God which the Christian may experience in this life. Such union is meant to be the normal experience of each Christian, as each, by baptism, has the supernatural life implanted interiorly, and, as one cooperates with that, in loving keeping of Jesus' words, one has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit dwell in one. The normal Christian life is a call to perfecting charity and ever deeper union with God. This is a level of life far above the kind of detachment which was attained by the Brahmin in the passage cited. The Church is a Body with many members of different callings, and not all are called to the lifestyle of the monk or nun with their more extreme daily renunciation and identification with Christ's sufferings in the battle against evil. Each Christian has his own part in the battle, and each has his own particular forms of renunciation and self-denial, putting the love of God above all, and loving others only in Jesus. As St Athanasius tells us in his Life of St Anthony, Anthony's victories over the devil were "the success of the Saviour" in him. AS he received the heavy physical blows of the devil, he yelled out, Nothing shall separate me from the love of Christ!". True mysticism is living the Christ centered life, in whatever circumstances we are placed or called to.
Pvk wearing his best poker face in this one ❤
John Vervake is like Mr Wisdom in CS Lewis’ Pilgrim’s regress.
I would like to know about the relationship between nominalism, liberalism, and modernity and if/how the protestant reformation was used in their incarnation.
Nominalism came about thru the Churchmen in the Middle Ages, at the universities, a variant metaphysics. The many scandals of the RCC, the invention of the printing press and the discovery of the New World ... led to stronger monarchy, weaker Church and runaway modernity. Liberalism started as latitudinarianism and has ended with drag shows for children. Stronger monarchy led to State Protestantism ... without elite support Luther et al would burn. Congregationalism came about as the monarchies weakened.
"When I go to an Orthodox church, philosophy is represented in the art"
What you get in a Lutheran church, is the Liturgy, the music, and the sermon. Aside from the occasional stained glass window (or felt / embroidery banner) and a little bit in the design, Lutheran churches are visually very spare. Nothing is (to be) more eye-catching than the plain brass cross at the front, though a couple of neatly-adorned candles might be there as well.
In my experience the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions have more emphasis on the descent of God into Human--the incarnation of Christ, while the Protestant and Lutheran tradition have more emphasis on the Ascension/Resurrection element. When asked to describe God to others I say "with us and for us" which for me brings these emphases together. Luther encouraged us to consider both what we understood ourselves to be freed from and freed for in our consideration of Salvation (God for us) while the Catholic traditions want to reassure us that God suffers with us, as seen in the depiction of Jesus on the Cross.
@@sheilaeisele8490 The Lutheran tradition in Europe leans more toward the Catholic/Orthodox side as you described it. In North America, Lutheranism is often shaped more by the prevailing Protestant aesthetic.
It's not that there's a theological shift per se other than that Lutheranism tends to present itself as culturally adaptive. But then again, so is Catholicism; just look at the Roman parishes built after 1965... they know how to adapt to a Protestant cultural aesthetic. It's naïeve to label it a a Lutheran problem.
Not at all the experience at my own Lutheran church. Beautiful altar, many large stained glass windows, full pipe organ, gold cross, vestments, it’s more high church and aesthetically pleasing than the Catholic parish I’ve attended once by my college, and it’s not close.
@@charliecampbell6851 That's a single parish out of thousands. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying on the whole Lutheran church buildings in America are on a spectrum and often even very traditional ones are renovated/torn down to build more modern spaces. It's the same phenomenon in Catholicism.
More to the point, I'm not entirely convinced that "Protestantism" (whatever that means) is "anti-incarnational" (whatever that means). I may have accepted that argument at one point but the sheer way in which its repeated ad nauseum without explanation or defense is ridiculous.
Further, that such an underlying deficiency can and is articulated in arbitrary worship aesthetic is equally unsubstantiated. Yes, adiaphora teaches subconsciously, but it is still adiaphora (we shouldn't confuse the symbolic choices with the doctrine being expressed) AND there isn't only a single Biblical image that can/should be drawn upon in formulating worship space.
17:55 🖐
And Orthodoxy is *by nature* apophatic > cataphatic and mystical.
19:57 One cannot and ought not separate the "theology" and philosophy (the thinky-talky stuff) from the instantiated, ritualized, embodied stuff.
It's not arbitrary that Lutheran churches and Protestant churches as they get further and further from the roots become less...beautiful, fewer icons, fewer statues...more "low church". It's all in your heads after all. It's about feelings and secret, sacred self stuff.
And that's not *entirely* untrue. Again, this is about the evolution of consciousness and the re-integration of Divided Man.
"Do you think there's any Liturgical change in the offing, for Protestants?" -- Is music an intuitive proxy for theology?
There's certainly pressure to move from traditional (classical) music to modern music. Personally I love the old classical music, but I recognize that that's a family inheritance of mine that other families may not share. There is something about the physical practice of hymnody, everyone singing in unison, at a relaxed pace, simple but well-harmonized pieces drawn from the last 500 years, making a sound together that is very different than what any one could achieve separately, in a way that people at any level of singing skill can participate in.
On the other hand, people "don't like funeral music." We're no longer a nation of farmers who want physical rest on a Sunday, but office workers always looking for excitement.
Is the skepticism of individual ecstatic experience (as modern music brings) standing in the way of profound transformation, or shielding us from a distraction from profound transformation?
Protestantism, particularly Lutheranism, could see some major outward changes if we find a J.S. Bach with a guitar, who can spend his lifetime setting Scripture to modern music, but that's a discussion involving the propositional Word that deserves its own thread.
"We're no longer a nation of farmers who want physical rest on a Sunday, but office workers always looking for excitement." I found this rather profound as an office worker descended from Mid-West farmer stock.
Protestantism and the Spirit of the West is about the Evolution of Consciousness. In order to have a *meaningful* conversation about this, we need to leave the egoic tie to ideas and self-identity at the door. Oh, and the discursive reasoning, either/or-ism.
PoS (as I call it) is a big deal and is really an ontological discussion about the God-Man relation. Which is why we should bring in JDW's work.
Luther, Protestantism and all their fruits are necessary, because they are.
Nicely said
@@chezispero3533 thank you, my friend. :)
Protestantism seems like consciousness, on top of Catholicism's intuition.
Eliot's response to the Waste Land was to become Anglo Catholic. Just sayin'. 😀
What do Lutherans offer people suffering from the Meaning Crisis? "Be normal, it works better than not" is something that springs to mind, although I'd have to think about it more carefully to give it a theological grounding.
"You can't have a particular denomination running the state"
I learned a new word in this discussion, "adiaphora", which might have some applicability towards finding common ground.
I think the concept of Natural Law as an answer to the question of a pursuing a unifying value of the common good (@/ about 1:22:00). Historically, this was a unifying concept, across institutions, in the West - particularly well in the United States. At least for a couple hundred years.
Fantastic
Is it possible to watch and understand this without watching all the prelude?
Yes. They almost didn't get into the material of the previous conversation.
I don't feel intelligent enough to understand half of this.
I hope the other half was profitable. I also don't think it's intelligence but rather learnedness in certain areas. We've all go domains we are familiar with and others we are not.
@@PaulVanderKlay Oh, it was. I really enjoyed this. I agree with you, a lot of it are words that are particular to the level of the conversation. And as you said I'm not educated at this level, and haven't read enough to get a passing education, so it's like a different language that I can sometimes suss out the meanings of.
One of the other things I'd like to say though, is I think that COVID had a different effect as well - In my own anecdotal experiences people seem to be more willing to engage with each other now. I think COVID shook a lot of us who were more independent into realizing perhaps we do need each other. Hopefully that's true, because that would aid in whatever the endeavors going forward for all of us are.
Paul, you're starting to compete with JBP for frequency of ads in videos ;)
Yeah. I knock a lot down. You wouldn't believe how many YT puts in. You can avoid them with YT Premium, an ad blocker, or listen to the audio podcast which is ad free.
1:14:00 The denominations prevent local geo-proximal churches from being formed. Hardly anyone drives less than 20 minutes to get to church. The Christians in my city can't come together as a Christian city, but the Democrats and the Republicans can.
"Lutheranism has devolved philosophically"
I'll need to look up what you think of CFW Walther, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Jordan? I would say he thinks CFW Walther is fine philosophically (pre-20th century shift into Neo-Kantian Lutheranism).. he disagrees with Walther on certain issues such as ecclesiology but that's more doctrinal than methodological. Bonheoffer? Was trained in Neo-Orthodoxy (same with someone like Hermann Sasse) -- had good things to say, he would very likely disaprove of his theological method; too modernist.
So that's the key distinction here: methodology (prologomena) is not the same as beliefs (loci). You can agree with a theologian's assumptions but not their conclusions and vice-versa.
Something helpful would be books to read in regards to things referenced in the discussion. I don't know about Nicholas (Yakuza or Of Cusa?), or the other person named (was it John Scotus Eriugena?).
I'm expecting John to bring these guys to the fore in After Socrates.
😺It is sad that the meaning crisis solution is behind a pay wall too. For John Vervaeke’s AFTER SOCRATES all books were pretty pricey with one being $239 Canadian Dollars. I am not wanting to dissuade anyone; it’s just that I already have books in a pile waiting for me to read. Not to mention that I have to read each book three times sometimes to make it stick. Maybe we are making this AWAKENING FROM THE MEANING CRISIS way too expensive and complicated!🐿
These historical guys are covered in Wiki ... but basically, they are Catholics on the margin of orthodoxy.
@@williambranch4283 Did I get the names correct? It's hard to look people up when I don't know the names.
@@123darkdeal John Scotus Eriugena and Nicholas of Cusa. Nicholas inspired Copernicus.
Jokes aside this was a really good dialogue i hope more comes from it
I wonder, would Professor Vervaeke be willing to go out Christmas caroling with a bunch of us next year?
"I'm not saying we should have a Lutheran state"
There are several of those in Europe already. I'm not sure that's a solution with any vitality.
Reading Dostoevsky, he seems to see Lutheranism as defined by its relationship with the state (which is a bit novel, to an American Lutheran.) It's interesting to watch that develop over the next century or so.
It's not hard for a Lutheran to find nice things to say about Vervaeke. Some of his statements about Christ have a lyrical beauty that few pastors can manage, and it leaves you deeply shocked that he's not a believer himself.
"There's a book called 'The Lutheran Manual'"
That's hilarious =D
One imagines something resembling the owner's manual for a sensible car, or a piece of farm equipment. Set to cantata-form music, perhaps.
and then there's the Thomist manual tradition... set to Gregorian chant or Palestrina polyphony! 😀
@@anselman3156 I'm still toying with the idea of getting every chapter and theme in the Bible, set to modern music. The Catholics have illuminated every page, Protestants need to make them sing.
@@jimluebke3869 You can't top good ol' J. S. Bach. I am passionate about his Passions and cantatas, and I have a great LP recording of his Reformation Cantatas, Ein Feste Burg and all that, using old instruments.
@@anselman3156 If I'd started at age 16 I'd have had a prayer of at least approaching Bach; as it is, maybe I can find some people more talented than I am who are interested in this anyway, and talk them into working on it. =)
So this guy more in wanting a pretty church or a faithful church. He likes the tradition more then Jesus! John I believe is his name.