Eastern Christianity's unique resources for responding to the Meaning Crisis with Bishop Maximus
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Bishop Maximus (Marretta) is the Titular Bishop of Pelagonia, under the jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece. He does missionary work in Latin America and Africa; and is the Superior of the Hermitage of St. Ignatius, a Spanish-speaking Orthodox monastery on a mountain by Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala. He also gives classes and lectures in philosophy, theology, history, and languages at St. Photios Orthodox Theological Seminary in Etna, California.
Website: monasterioortodoxo.org
PayPal: paypal.me/BishopMaximus
John Vervaeke, Jonathan Pageau, and Jordan Peterson pointed me towards home. The Orthodox Church. These videos make me realize the infinite and eternal depths of contact with Truth and with Love, who is God, that we can have. In a propositional manner, yes, but much much beyond that, in a participatory manner. It's thrilling to be living in such times, in spite of all the loss and crisis around. Thank you Bishop Maximus and Dr. Vervaeke.
Glory to God brother! God bless you and strengthen you on your journey!
@@ChristIsKingPhilosophy Amen! Thank you brother, God bless you too
Exact same story here. Well said. God bless
Will be chrismated with my daughter and wife on Holy Saturday lord willing. Thanks to Vervaeke, Pageau, Peterson, and many others. True servants of their fellow humans.
God bless you! Peterson and Pageau helped me find our parish church in 2020. Chrismated October 2021. It has been incredible to come to the awareness that I'd been longing for this all my life.
This changes everything. I’m hearing the Gospel for the first time despite having most of it memorized. Thank you Dr. Vervaeke and Bishop Maximus.
This is an incredible comment!
Glory to God!
I know how you feel!!! In the same boat myself...
Please attend an orthodox divine liturgy. It's heaven on earth.
What a super helpful video! Thank you!
Commentary time?! Surely this makes the top of the list?
@Phlebas Probably not a coincidence that this tyranny coincided with the creation of the printing press.
@@youssefsammouh501 Agreed. Esp, the second half. But it's all wonderful.
"Paul, Paul, why are you persecuting me (not doing a commentary on this)?"
@@peten5426 I think that it started even before that. Socrates wrote about how the written word would make us forget.
"Socrates on the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing" is a great read (pretty short) if you search it out.
The medium is the message. Technological Babel (the forgetfulness and meaninglessness) that comes with tech (Mammon) is something that I've been thinking about for a long time.
@@WhiteStoneName true. McLuhan often (citing Havelock's "Preface to Plato") mentioned that it was the abstract nature of the phonetic alphabet that accounted for this shift. We became abstract man, down to our very experience of the world, due to this change in the medium.
And yeah, familiar and on board with your techno babel idea (I was brbz on the discord)
I’ll be Orthodox for 1 year having converted from Roman Catholicism this weekend. I cannot possibly explain the richness and integrated wholeness of Orthodoxy. I’ve found so much healing in every facet of my life in the Orthodox Church. It is the *perfect* answer to the meaning crisis.
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My Catholic grandfather converted to Orthodoxy because the Catholic Church wouldn't let him marry his mistress.
"meaning crisis"
@@catholicmilitaryassociation “meaning crisis” = nihilism, apostasy, modernism, call it what you want.
@@catholicmilitaryassociation I’m not here to judge your grandfather. Not sure why you told me this. Let God judge him. Why dishonor his memory on the internet? May his memory be eternal.
I'm a former agnostic who played around with the occult, Hermeticism, Buddhism who discovered orthodoxy pretty recently. Me and my family are now catechumens at an orthodox parish ready to be baptised in June. The biggest shock had been the way my children have taken to it and the positive effects it's had on them.
would you say more about the benefits for your kids?
@@JeffreySchwinghammer more courageous, more loving and quicker to forgive, less stress over small things etc. They both pray daily and my son's now on the Altar.
@@naikhanomtom7552 that's beautiful! What do your children like most about it? What speaks to them? if you don't mind the question.
@@JeffreySchwinghammer Honestly, the entire faith. Considering my son wasn't baptised until he was 11, he has taken to it instantly.
My wife now also does the Sunday school with the youngest kids. We are full active members in the parish.
@@JeffreySchwinghammer And to answer what they like most? Honestly...Christ. They both talk about Jesus all the time now.
For my daughter especially who's a lot younger, it's simple. She knows God created her, loves her and suffered and died for her. So she loves him back.
The more I learn about the Orthodox church the more deeper and rich it gets. I feel sad for how much the West is missing.
Yeah definitely. Hope to see John Vervaeke come closer to the faith.
Absolutely beautiful dialogue. I prefer these types of interactions over debates ☦️.
Dear Bishop Maximus, and John, this was SO good. Thank you! I can't wait for part two!
Heisann
How does this relate to Sydney Banks teachings?
@@moodbox_no Jan, I am not personally familiar with Sydney Banks teachings but a brief perusal of some materials available on his website seems to overlap with some of the things that John is saying, and the Bishop, with respect to the encounter with God that is beyond words, and is relational, participatory, synergistic. It's not that it can't in some way be expressed in words, it's just that, as with every relationship, the meeting and knowing of someone is far more than the (even true) descriptions about them. Anyway, that's my two cents, based upon a very brief perusal of what I could find on Banks's teachings on line. Peace. -Eirik
What great timing.
So looking forward to where this goes.
I have begun my transition into the Orthodox Church, with my 2nd liturgy on Sunday. The lampposts showing me the way upwards have been:
Curt Jaimungal
Iain Mcgilchrist
John Vervaeke
Jordan Peterson
Jonathan Pageau.
I could never repay you all the debt of gratitude for all of your work.
I find myself in the same position. God speed!
Both of you, please also consider checking in with John Butler as well! He has been a great blessing to me on my path of awakening to Christ. Blessings!
Blessings to you! You might want to avoid the word "transition" though in this strange climate we find ourselves in. :)
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My husband and I just started catechumen classes this past Sunday. Jonathan Pageau gets the credit from us too. What a time to be alive.
Easter egg: the picture on the wall behind Bishop Maximus is the Ladder of Divine Ascent
Thank you John, this is beautiful. As a Methodist who is slowly becoming Orthodox, this is helping me integrate my nostalgia of my childhood faith with the likely home of my adult faith and my children’s faith. Thank you.
Very well said. Exactly for myself as well.
Wonderful! I converted to Orthodoxy recently, and I will say that of all the Western Protestant theologians, the Wesley brothers truly understood the Eastern Fathers and the need for synergy between God and and man in order to achieve salvation. For that reason, I admire traditional Methodism.
Dr. V’s face here 1:01:42 is why I will never unsubscribe from this channel, health and happiness to all who watch this video.
Truly beautiful.
this is the most mellow yet high level podcast
I am Orthodox Christian who has read the neoplatonists and the patristics. But, this brought a much deeper level to my understanding. Thank you! More please...
The Bishop is awesome
Bishop Maximus and Jonathan P.
Thank you both for allowing me to witness this conversation, and I'm looking forward to the next installment. It was incredibly meaningful for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I shall be Christmated in a week and a half, thanks to Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke who have been part of my journey
Blessings!
i would look in to baptism as well
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Isn't Vervaeke a "nontheist" though? Kinda confused on what he's trying to get from orthodoxy if he doesn't believe in God..
@@b0ondockz838 Why confused? I'm a former non-theist who is now Orthodox. A seeker is going to seek out the Truth wherever it is to be found.
"We don't want to be vicariously righteous, we want to be actually righteous." That's the best thing I've ever heard from an orthodox priest.
Dear John, I trust you will bring Bishop Maximus back. His expositions are invaluable. Thank you for your excellent work.
Indeed may he be brought back for further discussions and illumination
Many more episodes with him please.
Christ says "Be perfect like your father in heaven is perfect".
Then Christ through his deification of his human body perfects humanity and is the first TRULY human person. Christ becomes that which he offers us as a gift by Grace. The condescension of the Son to our level and living with us, being like us is aside from the creation of us by Him the ultimate expression of love, humility, compassion and words that are beyond description. Then he defeated death for our sake by suffering on the cross and his death.
Indeed this is what we are called to be like, each and everyone of us. If we could all be like our creator and Lord Jesus then you can at least imagine regardless of background what that would be like. No technical advancement or comfort can or ever will come close to what we would be if we were like Christ.
So how awesome is it then that we are able to participate and be transfigured by living a life with Him and in Him. A painful and hard process it is in this fallen world, but there is no better way forward than that which the Lord has given us.
As a former atheist and now I'm Orthodox I can say that Christ called and I submitted. People say I'm different, that I'm more collected and "serious" and worried about others. I don't know if that is true. All I know is that I want Christ to live in me and increase in me so that I may do right by people around me. That I repent of my old ways and thoughts and be changed. That is what I want and I suffer at the state of the world. It is painful to see what is going on, but this is not the end of things and that is why I move forward. Glory to God now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen 🙏☦️
John discovers the essence/energy distinction.
11:30 there's also something super valuable and rarely understood: the Christian doctrine of Predestination. Not the temporally-bound free-will argumentation that it is conflated with today.
What a treasure the Bishop Maximus..clear, calm, spreading light in darkcorners. I do not know why but he reminds me of Mathieu Pageau, same depth and at the same time same capacity to translate difficult concepts in simple words
This is a promising dialogue, and I look forward to the next installment! Gripping stuff, to me at least! Orthodoxy keeps appearing in many little corners, and I have been researching it for some time, edging ever closer.
I very much appreciate Bishop Maximus' careful and patient explanation. John's articulate responses were like directional signposts helping me to consolidate these difficult concepts into something coherent which I could access and begin to understand. Most importantly, I am able to (perhaps) recoginze some of these metaphysical ideas as present in my own life. Thank you to Bishop Maximus and Dr. Vervaeke and I look forward to the continuation of this conversation.
Same here. Very well said.
Brilliant, this is just great, exactly what we need, REAL dialogue, each learning from the other. Starts a bit slow, but I love the way John gets more and more into it, and starts to lean forward with a beaming smile, excellent!
I will never for the rest of my life forget John's delighted face, and certainly not his body language.
An erudite discussion, much of which went over my head the first time around. I listened to it a second time, in small increments, taking the time to research things I didn't know about: Neoplatonism, Hesychasm, the writings of Tertullian, etc. That helped to clarify my understanding. Looking forward to the next installment!
As a Guatemalan who has been intensely following the works of Pageau, Peterson and more recently Vervaeke this could not have been more delightful!
I heard the fastest place the Orthodox Church is growing in Latin America is Guatemala. Praise be to God.
@@ciaranmurphy6618 That's interesting, I did not know that. Where did you get this from?
Thank you
More of this. I’d love to see a deeper dive into “synergy”.
I was baptized into Orthodoxy about three years ago and this is by far the most helpful video on what makes Orthodoxy unique and so powerful in transforming our lives. Thank you both for talking in such a methodical and helpful way. I am really looking forward to your next conversation together.
Are you saying that these topics, or something similar, weren't covered during your catechumenate? It sounds essential to Orthodoxy.
@@gomertube They definitely were, but there's so much to take in and it was so far out of my previous religious training, that it was difficult to assimilate and really understand what was being taught.
It definitely helps to participate in the church for a while then come back to these kinds of lessons, because everything comes together much more clearly.
@@jeremyfirth Yes I see. Thanks.
Thanks Bishop Maximus and John!
Mindblowing! A historic bridge dialogos just took place between Eastern Orthodoxy, Neo Platonism and Cog sci . Glory to GOD!
This is totally amazing for me because I love hearing how the Christianity that I knew missed out. I turned to Sanstana Dharma. He is explaining the Brahman Atman relationship within me, its union. This conversation is a huge gift and a wonderful bridge.
My fiancee was raised as a practicing Siddha Yogi, and has recently become an Orthodox Christian where she has found many many many similarities and even the fulfillment of Siddha Yoga in the Eastern Christian tradition. There are multiple people in our Church that come from a Yogic background (who practiced with great devotion). I'm not trying to convince you of anything, only to say that many other people have discovered that bridge, and for them, Orthodox Christianity is where they have found their home.
A big thank you to his holiness Biship Maximus for taking the time to engage in this dialogue. 🙏📿 It is so helpful to have dignified scholars and holy people stand firmly in their faith and explicate their philosophical and theological stances. It is a great gift to the culture.
I love listening to Dr. Vervaeke talk to Orthodox Christians. He draws out that beautiful experiential intelligence that they know living in Christ. A couple of years ago, I very nearly because a catechumen myself at St. Raphael's in Iowa City. My first visit there was on a Wednesday night, celebrating the Transfiguration. Such a deeply meaningful liturgy. I must go this weekend. Dr. Vervaeke helps me to realize that even if I don't identify culturally as a Christian, it's important for me to stay in touch with Christ and to practice in a way that doesn't bullshit myself or deceive others. His courage to engage with people who have differences in opinion with him in a non-superficial way does so much for that. I can even listen to him talk to Jonathan Pageau or Jordan Peterson and set my distaste to the side and engage with the ideas. A lovely thing. And I mean Lovely like Agape and Beauty in the classic senses, the senses Dr. Vervaeke espouses.
This was an absolute gift to the world Bishop Maximus and John. Growing up in the Pentecostal-Charismatic tradition, it was the Eastern tradition that gave more precise language to the earnest pursuits of Pentecostalism. If I had not encountered it 10-12 years ago, (along with the scholastics too!) I don't know if I would have continued to be a Christian.
Have you seen Nate Hile's talk with Chris Green on Grail Country? It's maybe one of my favorites. He's awesome. My first exposure to Chris, outside of a sermon that Nate had shared with me. He's going to be having a conversation with Nate and JDW soon. So many cool things happening in this online space.
ua-cam.com/video/n2npIDWk1s8/v-deo.html
That's funny and maybe a little ironic. I accepted Christ in my heart a few months ago, when I was sick and desperate and I heard the Gospel... and I almost immediately got sucked into Orthodoxy, but thankfully only online and not in person. As I read the Bible, I found that Orthodoxy teaches lies about Mary and icons/idols. Having found two clear lies, I think it's probable that there are more lies. It's very disheartening and now I wonder if I made a mistake... at least I think I'll be putting Christianity on a shelf to maybe come back to someday. I hate lies. I hate liars. I thought I had that in common with Christians. It's humbling to admit when you're wrong.
Oh my goodness. So much to say and so few words. Deep, deep gratitude to you both for this conversation and I will be watching for the next one.
There are 9 levels of prayer in Catholicism:
(1) vocal prayer, (2) meditation, (3) affective prayer, (4) prayer of simplicity, (5) infused contemplation, (6) prayer of quiet, (7) prayer of union, (8) prayer of conforming union, and (9) prayer of transforming union
that directly correspond to purification, illumination and union so it is not only Orthodox concept.
Good observation.
Fantastic ! I have recently been learning about Eastern Orthodox at the same time I found John’s work. When John talked about Neo Platonism I thought about how Orthodoxy seemed to have a deep sense of the relationship between God and participating. Essence and Energy is very fascinating. The Eastern Orthodox’s understanding of the Trinity and Logos is also extremely deep and would love to see how it could relate to cognitive science. More of this John ! Your really on to something here. Blessings !
This conversation released a joyous cascade of insight and revelation for me. Please continue soon. Thank you John and Bishop Maximus.
Very inspiring conversation! So glad you two found each other. Synchronicity for sure !
Sincerely looking forward to a part 2, hopefully very soon!
Thanks for exemplifying the good, the truth and the beautiful. I feel deeply oriented by participating via listening and feeling into the energy and dynamic between the two of you. WOW. Grateful. This was a update for my being in a profound way ❤️
4:59
I fully agree. I have learned as much from Johns wise disposition as I have from his proposition
1:10:20 "...we become the person we're SUPPOSED to be". A new understanding of 'suppose'.
Wow, this was such a beautiful dialog (dia-logos?). John and Bishop Maximus’ differences fit so well together. It makes me wonder about what a conversation would look like with these two, plus someone like Ian McGilchrist. Thank you, John and Bishop Maximus, for creating space to bring this into the world.
Looking foward to this conversation! Greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷
This was really excellent… and I look forward to the continuance of this conversation.
A problem I have with Christianity, but I don’t think it’s really a problem with Christianity, is that I feel like Christians very often struggle to communicate about there faith to folks outside of Christianity. I say I don’t really think it’s a problem with Christianity because I think this is true for anyone trying to speak about their culture to someone outside their culture. I think of the challenges folks have with your technical language, as an example of this kind of problem.
So I guess this speaks to a value of platonism.. and the power of good faith collaborative sense making efforts.
It’s exciting to me because I’m not ready to self identify as Christian but I none the less see profound value in Eastern Orthodoxy around the meaning crisis problem… and I think this kind of discourse, well it’s deeply helpful. So thank you.
This was so good I’m listening a second time and very much looking forward to more talks from you two. Thank you
Very happy that you had this conversation, John, and that you were going to be continuing it.
Incredible discussion.
Looking forward to more.
I get so tired of propositional knowing.
Participatory knowing is exhilarating. Participatory knowing is meaningful.
Yes the resources are in Eastern Orthodoxy! Amen!!! Sorry for so many posts, I’m excited for you John! Prayers continuing. You can be Orthodox and still be a cognitive scientist psychologist! I would love to do research on the Jesus Prayer here at the healing center in our flotation tank…Lord willing 😊
Dr Iain McGilchrist has spoken about the very issue discussed at 21:00 when Bishop Maximus elucidates the form of Neo Platonism in the Western Scholastic tradition: “the identity of all qualities and everything that can be said about God with the essence of God itself”. I think it was in reference to a conversation Dr McGilchrist had with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams.
In his book, Escape from Rrason, Francis Schaeffer pinpoints the thinking of Aquinas as the origins of modern man’s dilemma. He says that “In Aquinas’s view the will of man was fallen, but the intellect was not . From this incomplete view of the biblical Fall flowed all the subsequent difficulties. Man’s Intellect became autonomous.”
Outstandingly clear in articulation from Bishop Maximus and wonderfully clarifying engagement from you, Dr Vervaeke. So looking forward to Part 2!
More of this. "More!"
That interruption was really helpful for me at the 21 minute mark because of how you brought in the idea of propositional tyranny.
Thomas Plant, an Anglican chaplain in Japan, recently published a book called "The Lost Way to the Good: Dionysian Platonism and Shin Buddhism." It gives a really lucid overview of Dionysius, his influence on Christianity, and how his framework compares with True Pure Land Buddhism, for anyone who would find that an interesting thread to pull.
This is awesome, the talk is .... its great.
The essence of the Godhead and His energies can be likened to the difference between the actual Sun and the Suns warming rays of light. These two aspects can only be separated or differentiated by degree. Likewise we can not participate in the Sun it’s self but we can participate in the energies of the light. And of course the rays of sunlight form and give life on earth and in us.
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This vision is very Celtic and Celtic Christianity held firm this existential knowing. See the Celtic crosses.
Incredible
Beautiful conversation
I mean the following in the most complimentary way possible toward both discussants.
John never interrupts. At least I have never seen him do so before, until this video. I understand this as follows: John had the joy of a child in discovery, in John’s case, finding really new and insightful possibilities - things he had never really come to see before.
Like the joy of a child in discovery, John couldn’t help himself. He had to jump in. John jumped in where a new insight was offered and where clarification was helpful. And this gave me joy, as it made for me a more engaging dialogue.
What a cool connection! SPOTS in Etna is a wonderful place. Thank you both for the meaningful conversation. Dr. Vervaeke, I appreciate that you are true to your word, that you engage in dialogue with a wide variety of thoughtful seekers of wisdom.
phenomenal
Good talk. Figured John already knew this stuff from pageau. Cool too see him see it.
Absolutely beautiful!!
More please! Beginning to make sense.... tentatively, clearing softly like a misty mountain....John's gesticulation is giving some visual clues, as well! Thank you, both!
Wow 🤩 Look forward to the next discussion 😊
I'm a Latin Catholic and have some objections to Palamatism (though to be honest, though he's my patron Saint, I think Aquinas' articulation of Divine simplicity approaches a word salad, so I'm for an internal distinction of the energies among themselves within the essence or something to that effect, the Western tradition is not actually monolithic on the point Bl. Duns Scotis for instance holds a different position than Aquinas). I also cant quite agree that theres not conceptual content to our conception of God (though obviously all our language is inadequate and analogus, and ineffable non-conceptual vision, experience and union are how we most really can know Him). Still the good bishop has done a lot to help me appreciate where Eastern Orhodox are comming from.
I keep waiting for a real contradiction between Orthodoxy and Catholicism to hit me. It never seems to. Yes, I know about issues with the authority of the Pope and and/with the Holy Spirit and essence and energies... Every holy Orthodox or Catholic I've spoken to sees clearly that both constitute the true Church and it's a sin that we are divided. Unfortunately we too often feel the need to emphasize the brokenness in an attempt to not lose our identity. Or, even worse, we mischaracterize the other. That's truly heartbreaking.
Bravo! I look forward to the next movement in the symphony.
I was particularly thrilled by the last few minutes, an articulation of Jung's Individuation process through a Christian model and participatory frame. Impactful - thank you.
Fantastic conversation! You should really get Dr. David Bradshaw on here, Dr. John! His book on Aristotle East and West is excellent!
You can learn more about christian theology in this one hour discussion than from some paid courses. Brilliant talk!
More Bishop Maximos please!
I'm deeply moved by the quality of the manners that you're exemplifying with this Dia-Logos. Some Spiritual Midwifery goin' oooooon ❤️ Goes so well with the reading and listening to Stephen Faller's "The Art of Spiritual Midwifery".
I’m getting this book ! Thank you!
God bless you, John. God bless you, Bishop Maximus as well
Part 3: deification. That will be awesome! Thank you to both. John displays masterful learning skills and Bishop Maximos is literally a grace.
Adding Jonathan Pageau to this conversation would be so interesting! Thank you both.
Can you put in these amazing discussions some language for very young people or non philosophical folks! Explain it to a 12 year old. Which is why the gospel is such good news! Even a child understands it. As well as these incredible men in this video. My near death experience was so powerful and the only way I can think about it is to say God is ineffable-I say this as an Anglican Christian. I love Eastern Orthodoxy. 🙏❤️
This was absolutely fantastic.
I appreciate your new UA-cam aesthetic, I've been waiting for it. Thanks for taking yourself seriously, it's long overdue and it looks fucking good on you.
a mystical experience will never come about as a result of intellectual exercise. I do appreciate this work 🙏
Great discussion. I hope you continue soon 🙂
Seeing Vervaekes excitement at end was beautiful to see
This conversation was absolutely stunning!!! Can’t wait for its continuation!!!
I’ve been praying for you John! This feels like the answer to my prayers. What a wonderful conversation! You are blessed! Now that you KNOW, you need to ACT and come to Christ…. I pray. 🙏🏻☦️❤️ Lord willing!
I cannot wait for Part 2, thank you
an interesting consequence of some of the ideas talked about today, could be a way of bridging the theism-non theism gap in religious experience. A way that doesn't do violence do either experience/tradition, and simultaneously deeply affirms the distinctiveness of both. If there is to be made a difference between God as He is transcendent in Himself, and the revelation to God to us, and the Orthodox are correct that we don't relate to God directly, but through his energies then it means anything that is said about God, which may be true, does not fully grasp God in Himself. Which would mean that God can be said both to be personal and impersonal as both of these poles of being/reality exist, and find their foundation in God, or the Absolute, if you prefer. Which would mean that both theistic and non-theistic revelations of the Absolute can be affirmed in their particularity without doing violence to either one, because both are experiences not of the Absolute as It is in of Itself, but of the Absolute as the Absolute reveals Itself to the individual. Which therefore means, (switching back to the Theistic language) that we experience God as both personal and impersonal in His energies because both are within God, and yet God's essence trancends both categories and therefore stoops down to us, and encounters us in both categories. Theistic and Nontheistic revalations then are simply different revelations of different aspects of God's energies. Therefore, we can affirm both theistic and nontheistic experiences because both are true of God analogically, but in His essence He transcends them, but in His revelation He embodies them, so to speak. This was a great conversation, and I hope this is useful to somebody! (Edit: I wanted to add one quick note about what I mean by bridging here. I don't think the traditions or the views themselves should be molded together in facile syncretism, rather using some of the Eastern Orthodox concepts discussed today and pulling on some things I've thought about I'm looking for a way that allows for both theistic and nontheistic religious experiences to exist within the domain of Ultimate Reality without denying the phenomenology of either one. So a nontheist doesn't tell the theist that they are superimposing concepts over their experience and there isn't actually communion with the Divine Person being experienced, and the theist doesn't try to shoehorn in a personal frame of understanding into the nontheistic experience of oneness or in an experience of suchness. So its not as much about bridging the traditions or the ontologies themselves, I think this is still very reliant on the resources I know from the Christian tradition, it is meant to be a way of affirming both experiences within an ontological whole while still affirming the way these practitioners would describe the experiences.)
I see the bridge but it is under construction as of yet, at least for me.
“Ontological hole.” Gonna steal that one!
What a wonderful discussion on perspectival orientation to God, vs defining God. What an eye opening experience this discussion was
It’s so exciting to be found by the Truth
Incredible conversation. Just wow.
Good grief!
What an incredible conversation. Please keep this going just fabulous going out and feeling for understanding. Weird way to put it but … well that’s my best attempt , good stuff!
More please!!!
I’m a firefly. God planted within my the ability create light and love as He does. As I realize my ability to truly love as God loves(as demonstrated in Christ) my little rear end lights up and I contribute positively to the kingdom. This is the “fish-o-sofical” I think about May relationship to God.
Thank you!
(GPT of the last 30 minutes) The following is a combined and logically arranged transcript of the conversation:
Essence and Energies: The speakers begin by discussing the distinction between God's essence and energies, a concept central to Eastern Orthodoxy. The essence of God is His ultimate, unknowable nature, while His energies represent His actions and presence in the world that can be directly experienced by humans. The energies of God are not mere effects, but are participatory, enabling humans to partake in the divine nature.
Grace and Creation: In this framework, divine grace is understood not merely as a created effect, but as an aspect of God's energies. This allows a deeper understanding of grace, moving beyond the scholastic view of grace as a super-added gift to seeing it as integral to the human nature and purpose.
Participation in God: According to Eastern Orthodoxy, the grace that God gives becomes part of us, a core aspect of our being for which we were created. This contrasts with the Western scholastic view that sees grace as a super-added gift on human nature.
Synergy: The term "synergy" is used to describe the cooperative interaction between God and the human soul. This concept plays a critical role in understanding how humans participate in the divine energies. The synergy is experienced not merely at an emotional level, but as an actual interpenetration of the divine and human, mediated primarily through the "noetic" aspect of the human soul - the aspect capable of direct knowledge or intuition of God.
Unity of Dualities: The speakers discuss the idea of a unity between two key concepts in Eastern Orthodoxy: logos (reason/divine order) and noesis (intuition/direct knowing). The model for this unity is the union of the divine and human natures in Christ.
Transcendence and Immanence: The speakers explore the idea of God being both transcendent (beyond and above the physical universe) and immanent (existing or operating within). They discuss how these two aspects can be experienced simultaneously in the depths of one's soul, which is seen as an experience of God's energies.
Unique Individuality (Suchness): Drawing from Buddhist terminology, the speakers discuss the "suchness" or unique, non-categorical essence of an individual. This essence is seen as a point of interaction with God's energies, suggesting that in the most intimate aspect of our being, we experience the immanence of God.
Becoming One with Ourselves: The speakers touch on the idea that through this profound spiritual experience, individuals can become more integrated, overcoming inner fragmentation and becoming more fully themselves. This is seen as a simultaneous process of deepening relationship with God and self-realization.
Grace: The concept of God's grace is discussed as both an experience of the transcendent (God's beyondness) and an experience of becoming more authentically oneself. In other words, grace is understood as something that brings us closer to God and helps us realize our true nature.
Union with God: The speakers discuss the distinction between the union of Christ with God, which is essential (by nature), and the union of human beings with God, which is by grace or by energy. They suggest that this union occurs on a personal level, through a synergy within the psyche and a simultaneous synergistic relationship with God.
In summary, the conversation explores the profound spiritual reality of union with God as understood in Eastern Orthodoxy. The speakers delve into the phenomenological aspects of this experience and its implications for personal transformation and self-realization.
Try Metropolitan Borys Gudziak of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Byzantine Catholicism is eastern and western theology and philosophy
No thanks.
Beautiful. Part 2 soon please!
Bishop Maximus, who I didn't know before this interview, does an excellent job of presenting the Energy Essence distinction which I believe is absolutely crucial in understanding not only the differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology but also the different paths East and the West took on a civilization level. I noticed Bishop Maximus has a channel and I hope he will start posting more material as I believe his clarifying insights can help many of those who like me are trying to navigate and better understand the beauty and sophisticated nuances of Orthodox theology.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
03:51 📚 *Bishop Maximus appreciates and integrates John Vervaeke's work, especially the concepts of four types of knowledge and relevant realization.*
05:38 ☮️ *Bishop acknowledges the importance of John's positive engagement, fostering peace, reconciliation, and dialogue in a polarized world.*
07:03 🌐 *Neoplatonism had a distinct impact on Eastern and Western Christianity, with the East having more extensive access and engagement, leading to a unique development.*
09:13 📖 *Early Christian engagement with neoplatonism involved varied attitudes, but as time passed, the Eastern fathers engaged more intensively due to their linguistic and educational advantages.*
13:24 💡 *Bishop Maximus characterizes Eastern engagement with neoplatonism as a "transfiguration," emphasizing its transformative nature in contrast to the Western scholastic engagement, which he acknowledges as philosophically impressive.*
19:23 🤔 *A crucial distinction lies in the participatory nature of Eastern Christianity's understanding of God, contrasting with the propositional approach in Western Christianity and neoplatonism.*
27:06 🔄 *Eastern Christianity underwent a transformation in metaphysics and theology, incorporating the Trinity and restructuring neoplatonic ideas, distinguishing it from the unresolved aspects in neoplatonism.*
29:02 🕊️ *Eastern Christianity distinguishes the intellect (Noose) with God the Father, the intellect with God the Son, and the world soul with the Holy Spirit, creating a unique connection.*
31:01 🤔 *The Trinity, as per Eastern Christianity, resolves the philosophical conundrum of the one and the many by stating that both the one and the many are present in God, not in logical conjunction.*
33:27 🌐 *In Eastern Christianity, there is an essence-energy distinction. The essence of God is what God is, and the energies are what God does, allowing for a concrete participation in the life of God.*
36:53 🤝 *Through the energies of God, Eastern Christianity emphasizes actual participation in the life of God, with the belief that individuals become by Grace what God is by nature.*
46:00 📜 *Eastern Christianity views language about God as more procedural, orienting individuals towards God for the purpose of proper orientation and participation, as opposed to conveying propositional content.*
51:29 🌌 *The essence-energy distinction in Eastern Christianity allows for a connection with God beyond the created effects, providing a deeper understanding of Grace as a participatory aspect of God.*
56:13 🌌 *Grace exists on purification, illumination, and identification levels within the Eastern Christian framework.*
57:35 🌅 *Illumination in Eastern Christianity involves receiving divine grace, an active presence of God within, different from emotional experiences.*
58:40 🎁 *The Eastern Orthodox view of grace involves it becoming part of human nature, distinct from the Scholastic view of grace as superadded to nature.*
59:57 🧠 *Synergy, involving human experience mediated through the Nous, is crucial in understanding the Eastern Christian concept of grace and participation in God.*
01:05:57 🔄 *The synergy in Eastern Christianity occurs at both the personal and the nature levels, aiming for the union of human essence with divine energy.*
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What's the next zoom call that took precedence over stepping closer to underlying reality beyond language, explaining the leviathan from Job in relatable terms?
The alignment between the trinity and the platonic terms was priceless! Glad to hear the whole thing and looking forward to more mysteries being laid bare. 🥰😇