Curiosity & Wonder, John Vervaeke & Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- This was a special in person dialogue between the cognitive scientist John Vervaeke and the symbolism expert Jonathan Pageau.
They reflect on what each finds valuable about each other's work, the nature of the conversation that they have been part of, good and bad criticism, the nature of symbolism and much more.
It was recorded in Toronto during the making of the forthcoming Rebel Wisdom documentary about John Vervaeke's thought. Some behind the scenes pictures, and a second part of this film is available for subscribers on the Rebel Wisdom Substack: rebelwisdom.substack.com/p/di...
This dialogue was filmed by Chris Altorf of Black & White Media: www.blackwhitemedia.ca/about-us
John Vervaeke's UA-cam channel is here: / @johnvervaeke
Jonathan Pageau's work can be found here: / @jonathanpageau
Very grateful to Dan Hammond for the audio mix.
Timecodes for the conversation:
0:00 - What does Jonathan appreciate about John's work?
3:55 - What does John appreciate about Jonathan's work?
9:35 - What is the nature of the wider conversation you are both part of?
16:10 - The nature of criticism & "civility porn"
24:09 - The need to go beyond the political layer of analysis
26:19 - Paranoia fuelled by the 'Hermeneutics of Suspicion'
35:16 - Dialogue, Curiosity & Wonder
48:25 - How Symbolism breaks the frame and rewires our thinking
54:36 - A parable is to a narrative what a koan is to a question
57:35 - "I want to help people fall in love with Being again"
01:05:23 - The moral of Socrates and Alcibiades
01:12:56 - Patterns of Being; love, faith & beauty
01:21:32 - Freedom cannot be absolute
Never have I seen the back of Jonathan’s head. What rebellious wisdom this production exerts.
Duh! Everyone knows this is rebellious symbolism at its finest
are you declaring the back of Jonathan's head a production?
@@Xtazieyo realsies
For an icon carver it's a very big deal......'>.......
Good to know he has a back of his head
This dialogue was extraordinarily beautiful, and the Logos was really catching fire. Thank you John, Jonathan and David.
Here for 10:40 - 16:07 👋🏻
The serendipity of John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau’s ideas becoming embodied in physicality in my life is astounding. I just had my birthday and my mother gifted me the painting from John’s Meaning Crisis series where it always starts off with that beautiful, lovely piano music. I had told my mom a little bit about Vervaeke so I thought she got me that because of him. But she didn’t, the painting reminded her of an essay I wrote in community college about overcoming familial disfunction; using fog and dust as metaphors of things that get in the way of us seeing our best selves. Thank you, all of you. David, John, and Jonathan. You are such a loving presence spreading love into the physical realm. Thank you 🙏
That piano music is Gymnopedie no. 1 by Erik Satie (Satie is also the word for remembering the being mode). I don’t even know if John was aware of this when producing the opening, but the synchronicities seem to flow from him. What a beautiful painting and wonderful gift to receive.
@@joshuamcguire4035 Thank you. I will check that musician out as well.
I love how John understands that Johnathan is really trying to show people a different and real way of living reality
Vervake’s vocabulary is so impressive. He really strives to say exactly what he’s thinking, and the result pays off I. The comprehension and understanding
love the format, so refreshing seeing people interacting face to face. Felt like I was sitting in the fourth seat at the table. Fantastic innovation. Great content too.
Exactly
The Forms are strong with this one. Thank you Dr. Vervaeke.
I hope Jonathan gave John a big old bro hug at the end. It’s obvious how much love John has for him. Great talk, can’t wait for the next one!
This is a real wonderous gem.
This and the Peterson/Pageau video on the same day. What a treat.
This video is way better
@@cesardude99 Different angles for me, equally good.
53:00 the compliment that Vervaeke is giving to Pageau is 100% right, but this is my personal experience of listening to both of them actually. Blowing apart something very familiar and providing insights that induce awe and wonder in people.
"Is there an aspect of faith that is respondingto a call of beauty from a higher level" Wow!
Thank you so much for this. Let the beauty of above be manifest in and amongst us. And bring with it the wonder to allow it into our hearts, that it may give us the humility to evolve.
Thanking you all for committing to find each others deeper truths, and allowing the hermeneutics of beauty be made in reality. ❤️❤️
The "Hermenutics of Suspicion" sounds like the sole actions of the 'accuser/satan'. The notion of beauty and being drawn into wonder is exactly what I see with my kids, which I'm learning from. Thanks John, Jonathan, and David!
Great connection. This is the spirit of the snake in the garden.
Suspicion is not bad at all times, there is a proper time for mistrust (i e. when snake tells you to eat a fruit).
Hermeneutics of suspicion is problematic in alienation from hermeneutics of beauty. Isn't that what John meant?
Like here: 58:01
Thanks for the shoutout John! I can't wait to comment on this one. It's really coming together in this little corner!!
Beautiful ❤️ Thank you for the privilege of listening in on this wonderful conversation - so many points of connection between them, so much confidence in truth. It is inspiring!
Holy sheeeeit I could listen to these guys for hours.
Do.
"It's opening people up at that deeper level." In other words, it is an entering into the mystery of the symbol. It is the "sacramental" participation in the Mystery.
This description/definition of estuary (Wikipedia sourced) is excellent: An estuary is a partially enclosed coastal body of brackish water with one or more rivers or streams flowing into it, and with a free connection to the open sea.[1] Estuaries form a transition zone between river environments and maritime environments and are an example of an ecotone. Estuaries are subject both to marine influences such as tides, waves, and the influx of saline water and to fluvial influences such as flows of fresh water and sediment. The mixing of seawater and freshwater provides high levels of nutrients both in the water column and in sediment, making estuaries among the most productive natural habitats in the world.
Really beautiful as a metaphor, great elaboration ❤️
Yes one it is difficult to convey how wonderful it is to hear such a touching and touching and genuine conversation among men using their true brain and heart
10 minutes in and have a lump in my throat. What a beautiful friendship.
Two beautiful men. Powerful closing statement from Vervaeke. Thanks to all for this.
It brings so much warmth to my heart to see the difference between Jonathan and John interacting by video versus seeing them interact face to face. Everything Jonathan has been saying about getting off the internet and seeing real people is itself being demonstrated. The human friendship is beautiful.
Awesome. Not sufficient to merely watch it through,one must go back again and again.The gems dropped are legion.
A most wonderful, truthful, faithful, and loving dialogos. Thanks everyone.
This was fantastic gents. It’s great to listen to two people with differences wrestling in a beautiful way to a unity 🙏
I don't have the prerequisite knowledge to follow where this conversation goes. But I enjoyed the experience nonetheless, it has inspired me to look into both John and Jonathan 's bodies of work. Thankyou for bringing this conversation together
So humbled to have had the privilege of this fellowship and so with people mentioned here.
I love this!!! These two are fantastic! It's also amazing that all three of you are in the same room!
All of you guys put on a great show. Although, I do want to say to Jonathan keep up the good work and all glory to Christ my brother. Sincerely, your Catholic brother in the Lord ✝✝✝
Thoroughly looking forward to this
What a valuable lesson about fellowship demonstrated by two men with very different backgrounds meeting for deep and meaningful conversation trying to understand the difficulties of meaning making in todays culture.
I’m almost tearfully grateful for the exuberance here
Jonathan that’s exactly what happened to me when I first listened to you speak this morning. Big aha Hermetics of Beauty moments!!
Amazing conversation, wasn't expect it to be this deep and enjoyable. These two really went to a different level here.
p.s. John please buy some lip balm :D
Absolutely love this video. When they get going, about halfway through, it truly is captivating. Thank you for sharing!
Two of the Generations great minds!!!
This was an incredible conversation with beautiful souls....Thank You All!
Tremendous insight from this conversation
I haven't yet watched the video, but I am already moved by an intense feeling of gratitude toward the both of you. You have both, in differing ways, been so important for my own journey. I sincerely cannot thank you enough for what you are doing, guys.
Bless you
And I want to say that this dialogs gets so much better to the end, there was so much insights connecting the important, the real an the beautiful. And helped me so much to get to understand some of the aspects of my own life. I hope this insight will not fade away shortly, and that I and other viewers can find this more than just "entertainment"!
Sweetness, fragrance and beauty of truth is evident
Thank you David, Jonathan and John. Wonderful conversation with many new aspects of reality for me.
I’ve personally loved every strange moment I’ve experienced finding this corner of the internet. I’m starting to see fruits of it in my life and the kinds of people I’m having my own conversations with. Cheers! 😊
Really enjoying this - Thank you
36:25 > what just came to mind is how Curiosity and Wonder seem to fall into McGilcrists left and right hemisphere framing. Curiosity being a more left hemisphere 'grasping', with a more right hemisphere 'openness' to wonder.
There are moments of insight throughout this session, but I would be lying if I said I understood it all
When he just pointed out that Newhart performed Loving Irony, I LITERALLY applauded!!!!!!!
Thank you for this- and all practices of Be-ing that get exemplified in these dialogos. “ To fall in love with Be-ing again!” Yes!
Wish me luck folks I'm going to try and watch this one before Paul Vanderklay releases his commentary on it (which he'll probably do by the time I click "comment").
Good Luck. I could feel Paul's ears burning. Would have like to seen him there. Paul will have some unique ways of adding to this logos.
Hahahahaha!!
@@dave95841 if Vanderklay were there THIS conversation could not have occurred. This beauty is distinct from whatever beauty his participation would have revealed...
Oh, Paul's comments are almost as good as the original thing. And sometimes even better.
@@olgakarpushina492 that’s absurd
David, the exchanges echo with so many points that have been guiding me for as long as I can remember. It also makes echo to what Alexander said a few months ago in a video with you. That is, and I am paraphrasing because it's from memory. "In a complex world love as the only starting point that allows to go towards the best outcome possible". Here John and Johnathan spell out new connections, new words (for me), new frameworks, putting known words and references under a fresh lighrt. And practiving it all in the process. Many, many thanks to you all. I do not know yet how many times I will need to watch it again to extract what I discover. But I now know why I have been following you since almost the beginning.
The most inspiring RW talk so far. This time and this place for my personal development ❤️ Peace
What a marvel conversation!
I hear, and I am seeking. Thank you all.
So good. So exciting to see these minds come together in the flesh.
Thanks for differentiating wonder from curiosity
John says I don't know what they mean by freedom, I felt that one.
A whole new level of understanding has opened up to me after seeing the back of Jonathan’s head
So important to have a meta Conversation about conversation. Thank you😃
Such a lovely conversation
This got brilliant around the hour mark with the Dante, Plato and the ascending call of love discussion
Great conversation.
Thanks in particular for that gem at the end... slightly paraphrased.
Freedom is not meant to be sacrosanct or absolute. Freedom is not ultimate in value; it is merely an instrumental means of action towards the True, the Good and the Beautiful.
I know this because I want to lose my freedom in these specific ways:
I want my thoughts to be completely determined based on what is true,
I want my actions to be completely determined based on what is good,
I want my sensitivities to be completely determined based on what is beautiful.
Errors in my attainment of these ideals, shouldn't be excused on a pursuit of absolute freedom.
the beginning of the interview is brilliant, great choice to let Pegeau and Vervaeke complimant one another. A fresh way of starting a interview. Thanks Rebel Wisdom.
I don't feel curiosity towards God, I feel wonder. So nice to understand the difference.
The bromance made me teary eyed lol
There are so many high level ideas in this discussion unironically.
A wonderful conversation
Great to see guys in real dialogue.
This was brilliant. Some stunning aha moments...
Great conversation! Thanks
Beautiful, thank you.
Thank you !
Just wonderful. Thank you John, Jon, and RW ❤️
The thing about freedom, it seems to me, is that the change in your nature that comes from pursuing a certain good is to be found in the free choice. You can align all of your action with what is true, but if that alignment is not done in freedom, it will not change you, your nature, or your love. Without freedom the personal transformation into a more divine being is impossible.
Amazing conversation
a true treasure trove of explanatory jewels and terminological explication. Very much appreciated folks.
Great conversation 👌
Outstanding.
a privilege to be able to watch (in participation)
John and Jonathon are part of a larger religious discussion that hopes to save politics and make us free from our limited and ideological ways of thinking about the world and ourselves.
Great Video! Love it!
I love philosophy, especially when I realized I was following a discussion on the appropriate manner(s) to have a discussion.
great conversation need to listen at least twice.
wow what a pleasure to listen to the 2 of the horsemen of meaning. And "Rebel Wisdom" being like the "John" that is documenting the "Revelations".
Given they are in a pub-like setting, I would dare call this something like the Ontological Inklings. Thank God for these brilliant men.
wonderful
So good.
A pre-like, right away!👍
Thanks.
Great discussion on Freedom.
Soooo damn good!!🥰
Grazie uomini. Vi ringrazio immensamente.
Loved this convo. Type John Wesley Small Groups into Google, some interesting articles. David fancy being Englands 21st century version of John Wesley 😉. Paul Vanderklay might be saying George Whitefield 😀.
I also felt like I wanted you to bring in Schiller at the end there when you were talking about freedom. Schiller's Letters on Aesthetics spicifically and his notion of the "play drive ", where he expands upon Kant's unfinished notions on aesthetics... and relates them spicifically to freedom.
This has been such a beautiful conversation, I'm commenting even before listening to it all. But the idea that IDW got trapped when they tried to get to the political is so precise, and I hope very much that it would not happen to someone like John.
Patterns pull you down to serve the poor, clothe the naked, heal the sick and feed the hungry. Faith is knowing that there is reality.
An "insight of wonder" leads to trust, whereas an "insight of curiosity" may simply allow us to believe we see through the veil and thus have power over whatever we're looking at, rather than power for and with it. A legal court setting and the court of public opinion tend to structure our conversations as battlegrounds where one loses at the expense of another. The courtyard permits a meeting wherein each of the souls meeting have the potential to leave enriched by the interchange.
that sweetness.... it's the Presence in Jonathan's life
we need the 4 horseman all together in a setting like this
Ascending the mountain together in loving awareness. Thank you both, I was looking forward to that and you did not disappoint. Except for the end when you threw a wet blanket over the freedom we'd achieved.I joke. But is freedom not implicit in love?
1:12:30 - pageau's excitement here is inspirational
I enjoyed this conversation, particularly the part about the issue when hermeneutics suspicion is being used in a conversation or debate, when hermeneutics of beauty, is appropriate, it led me to remember a scripture that I use to remedy hermeneutics suspicion, in these situations, even though sometimes it is needed in a world full of deception, at times and I feel it is also the blue print for a true relationship. 1 Corinthians 13:1-7