Dark Side of Spirituality • Ft. Matt Thornton • Martial Arts Journey
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- I've spent years being a devoted student and practitioner of spirituality only much later to learn about a destructive dark side that spirituality has. I was surprised to learn that Matt Thornton has gone through a similar path and that we shared many similar experiences and insights. I recommend to watch or listen to this full talk if you have any interest in spirituality to consider if your spiritual path may be leading to similar experiences.
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Audio podcast version: anchor.fm/martialartsjourney/episodes/26---Dark-Side-of-Spirituality--Ft--Matt-Thornton-e340al
Wow Sam harrys, Rokas is going to the Dark web martial arts journey will be now dark web journey, taking the red pill... Jokes aside man I think your journey is one of the best things I have seeing in the internet. Geting to the true, learning, allways humble. Congrats man, it is silly but I´m kind of proud of you.
about this
www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/4/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/
and
truebiblegodswordteachings.blogspot.com/2019/11/summery-updated-2019-11-10-around-time.html
be blessed all.
this was an awesome conversation, although I'm not sure Derelict Bohemians are so bad.
You have to be a very puzzeled young man. I researched that most of lithuania is roman catholic, usually many practitioners of this faith rely on trying to put their burden on maria instead of just doing what jesus said - follow me (which means imitate his way of living, learning and practicing). Most of the religions, a word which come from relying, work along a path. That is why in the middle east and far east these things are called a "way". In some you are to begin with faith, just to get you started and make experience for yourself. In some you get an initiation which shall give a first glance and motivate. That is the reason you find ascetic storys, going into the desert, the sweat lodge etc you drive yourself to the edge of existence, a state which hightens for a short time the spiritual level, short because it is not practicabel a long time without dying because the body has limits. You can compare it to like " Are Near-Death Experiences Real? " (Dr. Greyson, Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia School of Medicine), there was an even better video i do not find temporarily.
In a way you even try to accomplish this with meditation, because you begin shut down functions of your brains. there is the translator of the dalai lama called "Matthieu Ricard" who took part a lot and announced it far and wide to make proof like in "No Nonsense Meditation | Neuroscientist Steven Laureys Meets Buddhist Monk Matthieu Ricard".
Of course there are different approaches, an some you can only accomplish if you establish the right circumstances, comparable to good school grades, these you can only establish if you have a stable environment, are not poisened by your food you have to consume etc.
It is hard to tell an advice to you, but i think you are hanging out with too much run down people. I wonder if you ever read the commentated version of new testament, the philokalia or the buddhist nikayas or the christian desert fathers. To go further from the original sources sometimes makes just sense, if you progressed and want to compare experience because there are a lot of things you will never understand without practice, because it is so subtle. And many of these subtle things are used in martial arts to highten their skills, often some side effects. Take for example the Anapanasati Sutra, used right you can change your perception, for example the frame of viewing. Using this practice while watching tv you will see that you begin to see single frames of the pictures. Have a look at " “cinematic” frame rate" to understand the difference to see something flowing or as single frames.
I have to give a bit of a correction here, Osho, while he's a decent trolling Guru known to troll other Gurus and legends, the reason why the Rajneesh commune fell apart was he spent too much time reading and doing his spiritual techniques, obfuscated his responsibilities of leadership onto Sheela, his second lieutenant. And that woman was the mastermind behind those poisonings of the restaurants in Oregon country, among a few others are involved. Due to differences in developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development(Don Beck), cognitive and moral development, personality types/traits(Big Five traits modal, and Myers Briggs modal), 9 stages of ego development(Jane Loevinger), other lines of development in life domains to societal domains, ideological beliefs indoctrinated and gas lite into your mind from upbringing and culture, self biases and preferences, and also due to it being a different Era, the authorities instead of just charging Sheela and her accomplices took the opportunity to dismantle the commune, as it's around the time of the war on drugs and anti culture movements were seen generally as bad by more traditional conservatives. Matt Thomton in this part I partly disagree with his bad faith take of Osho.
While there are other factors, main factor besides self deception, is the lack of taking 100% responsibility for yourself and your life, and not managing your needs of belonging well, to the point of you being vulnerable enough to some of these smaller cult groups.
The problem with you and Matt is that both of you are like the fish in the aquarium. Both of you entered, some time and energy spent developing attachments, there was some limitations, then the realization of you being in a cult, which then made you both work out of that aquarium into a big body of water. You both thinking you are free enough to critique and demonize the past aquarium, do so, make it part of who you are, but in doing so, you both don't realize you just entered into a much bigger aquarium. That's the big issue here. It's just tiny small cult leaders and groups with cult dynamics, it's that the ego has attached itself into a big idea, becoming a member of a much bigger cult(ture), demonizing the smaller one. Just because you worked out of a past ideology, doesn't mean that the ideology you are currently a part of doesn't have it's own cult like dynamics.
Being involved in martial arts for 25 years, i never get tired of contemplating why people begin their training. I meet very few who are being violently attacked on a regular basis. Most who are drawn to martial arts are really searching for something deeper.
Great vid dude. Your journey is that of martial arts as a whole.
Excellent video!!
Great talk!
I don't know if really have the patience to sit here through an entire pod cast but what I heard of this sounds interesting.
I found the discussion genuinely interesting, but it reminds me that as we become satisfied with our wisdom and thinking skills, the likelihood increases that we have simply stopped noticing our own faulty reasoning.
DocTarnation hence the scientific method
@@jaymiddleton1782 That only applies to the objective material world around you.
This was so interesting.
I agree with Matt on some points about having shared values. Its always better to focus on what brings us together rather than what divides us.
However, I totally disagree with him about the link between Islam and terrorism. There are good and bad people in all religions and those with no religion. Matt is a bit naive to think that Atheists don’t commit atrocities as well. The Soviet Gulags is a good example. It all depends on individuals and ideologies can appear in all groups of people.
Matt talks about critical thinking and refers to many martial arts to holding on to traditions likening them to some religions (by the way I do agree on this). However, why does he still wear a Gi in Jujitsu, is that practical? Does he walk around the streets wearing it? Why hang on to that tradition? Whether we realise it or not people hold on to aspects of culture and tradition. He refers to the far right several times, they often refer to the American constitution to defend the reasons for possession of firearms. Many treat this as the Gospel and would never entertain the idea of it being changed. Many of those will be atheist as well. Ideologies appear everywhere, yes religion/spirituality can be a catalyst however that’s not the root cause as it can be found everywhere.
I agree not to blindly follow and Matt talks about finding the “proper way” to do things. However, each culture is different, and saying being kind or doing things properly is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Things are more complex than that. What may be acceptable in one culture is not always the case in the other. For example, gun culture in the US and UK is very different, which is the “proper way”?
I don’t think there has to be a conflict between spiritual and critical thinking, on the contrary I think they compliment each other. I actually think critical thinking can help a develop deeper spirituality.
Just a quick point: no one commits terrorism IN THE NAME of atheism. Of course, ATHEISTS themselves have committed plenty of atrocities, the point is that no one is doing it in the name of atheism. Which is a fair point.
Well said, I agree. Though I would add, that although crazies can be found in any ideology, the justification for suicidally murderous attacks IS in fact found in the doctrine of Islam itself.
You are both right.
There are definitely good and bad people of all beliefs. The problem is that Islamic terrorists are being told their actions are good. That fact needs to be met and recognized.
@@abj136 Good point abj. The question is who is it telling them their actions are good? Terrorist leaders are those who are preaching the hate, using texts and whatever they can find to justify their position - typically coming from a position of anger, fear and hate. Islamic leaders from the mainstream do not preach terrorism. The core Islamic texts do not preach or speak for themselves - they need to be interpreted. So to fight Islamic terrorism, you need to undermine the position of the terrorist-hate preachers. Undermining the texts themselves will generally work against you because you will be just seen as hating the religion.
Exactly
Love this! Excellent stuff. Thank you for posting these explorations. They are truly important.
You have hell of a friend right there man
Fascinating stuff.
Agreed!
You had me at plays D&D!
I have to give a bit of a correction here, Osho, while he's a decent trolling Guru known to troll other Gurus and legends, the reason why the Rajneesh commune fell apart was he spent too much time reading and doing his spiritual techniques, obfuscated his responsibilities of leadership onto Sheela, his second lieutenant. And that woman was the mastermind behind those poisonings of the restaurants in Oregon country, among a few others are involved. Due to differences in developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development(Don Beck), cognitive and moral development, personality types/traits(Big Five traits modal, and Myers Briggs modal), 9 stages of ego development(Jane Loevinger), other lines of development in life domains to societal domains, ideological beliefs indoctrinated and gas lite into your mind from upbringing and culture, self biases and preferences, and also due to it being a different Era, the authorities instead of just charging Sheela and her accomplices took the opportunity to dismantle the commune, as it's around the time of the war on drugs and anti culture movements were seen generally as bad by more traditional conservatives. Matt Thomton in this part I partly disagree with his bad faith take of Osho.
While there are other factors, main factor besides self deception, is the lack of taking 100% responsibility for yourself and your life, and not managing your needs of belonging well, to the point of you being vulnerable enough to some of these smaller cult groups.
The problem with you and Matt is that both of you are like the fish in the aquarium. Both of you entered, some time and energy spent developing attachments, there was some limitations, then the realization of you being in a cult, which then made you both work out of that aquarium into a big body of water. You both thinking you are free enough to critique and demonize the past aquarium, do so, make it part of who you are, but in doing so, you both don't realize you just entered into a much bigger aquarium. That's the big issue here. It's just tiny small cult leaders and groups with cult dynamics, it's that the ego has attached itself into a big idea, becoming a member of a much bigger cult(ture), demonizing the smaller one. Just because you worked out of a past ideology, doesn't mean that the ideology you are currently a part of doesn't have it's own cult like dynamics.
Wow, I wish I could train with you guys.
Whoa! This is eye opening. Same shit that I struggle with religion and spirituality.
You have to understand the negative aspects of the flip side of rejecting religion. If morality becomes merely subjective then literally nothing becomes immoral, because what is moral or immoral is merely self determined. There is a huge need for a moral standard in a functional society. It's like an operating system in a computer. Without it, Ted Bundy and Hitler become moral merely by self definition.
@@sweynforkbeard8857 You don't need religion to have morality. Just because I choose what I consider moral instead of blindly following the 'morals'(and I use that term very loosely here) of ignorant bronze age savages making up stuff to try and explain the world around them, doesn't mean that I will literally do anything and everything I possibly can. Nearly everyone has some set of morals they live by. Just by recognizing that 'morality' *is* subjective and there is no magic sky daddy living in the clouds doesn't mean everybody is all of a sudden going to flip out and start raping and murdering everyone else.
Speaking of murder and rape, most religions have TERRIBLE morals by today's standards that don't fit into the modern world very well, so religious people just do mental gymnastics to try and make them fit("Their slavery wasn't the *bad* type of slavery!"). Or just straight ignore the stuff they don't like.
Ted Bundy and Hitler wouldn't be that out of place as biblical protagonists. After all, lauded 'men of god' didn't have much issue with murdering people who wouldn't join their cults, forcing young girls to become their wives(rape, often under aged rape for bonus moral points), owning slaves, or even genocide. I don't care that 'god' often commanded them to do these things, still not moral. Well, by my subjective, rejective of religion, sort of standards anyway. Your mileage may very.
Point is religion *does not* equal morality. You *do not* need to have religion to have a moral society. And most religions quite often preach the *opposite* of what I would consider moral. Thanks but no thanks.
@@Pyrela Ok, so if I understand you correctly, what is moral is merely self determined (or is there some sort of societal standard that determines what is moral)? You did not necessarily define any sort of source as to what is moral or immoral. Ted Bundy obviously had a much different moral compass than you, however you just stated that morality is merely self determined, so what defines Ted Bundy as bad, if morality is strictly determined by the individual?
If religion is nothing more than "Bronze age savage" nonsense, then why should we not just kill off someone who has seriously crossed us. Is it fear of punishment? Design your crime better, and you won't get caught.
I would actually find Ted Bundy to be far from the example of someone like Jesus Christ, but not all that far from the example of Mohammed, so what you are saying is not totally wrong if we consider all religions.
Why is murder wrong? In a Darwinian framework, anything that does not contribute to you or your offspring's survival, it would actually be beneficial to kill off as many of those competing organisms as possible. If nature is your model, then not only is murder not wrong, it's actually desirable.
@@sweynforkbeard8857 Religion is man made, so it's all 'self determined' if by self we're referring to humankind. So decide to think for yourself or let other people do it for you. Just because they wrote it down and said, "god said this." doesn't make it special. Or good. The source for myself at least is, Me. Ultimately. Parents and society play a role in shaping that of course.
There's certainly more in the Christian bible then Jesus. Jesus is god's much more likeable and less murderous split personality. God the father as he's called is far worse than Ted Bundy could ever hope to be. He had dozens of children mauled to death by bears for making fun of a prophet for being bald for one very small example. I mean the story is kinda hilarious, when you know it's just made up nonsense of course, but if you think the bible is real then I'm not sure how anyone could possibly justify it. I mean you can't, if you're being reasonable(which is generally frowned upon in religion).
"...then why should we not just kill off someone who has seriously crossed us." Well, because *you* consider it to be wrong? Because you're not a psychopath? That whole pesky thinking for yourself thing. Besides, it's not like Christians haven't had a long illustrious history of doing exactly that.
The bible was written over a very long period of time by many different authors. That's why it has conflicting messages. Some were half way decent people, most were not.
I do find it hilarious that religious people insist on the only thing stopping people from raping and murdering is their religion. Because A.) A brief look through history will show It hasn't. Sometimes it encourages it actually. And B.) It kind of insinuates that it's the only reason *they* are not raping and murdering. Look, if you need a book of fairytales to tell you that you shouldn't kill your neighbor and rape his daughter then I'm not sure what to tell you(not sure the bible exactly does either since it states that god told the Israelites to do exactly that at one point). Maybe seek professional help. But at least stay away from me, please. I have a feeling you don't need a religion to tell you these things though.
At least we can agree Muhammad was an asshole. We can drink a toast to that. Cheers.
@@Pyrela If in my own self determined morality I decide that lying, stealing and murder is not wrong if I and my offspring benefit from it, then it is not immoral?
That's your position??
You at least acknowledged that your parents and society had a great influence on what you personally determine to be moral. What is the source of your society and your parents definition of what is moral? What is it's source?
I like this story of a man's logic conquering his Bias
Taoism has absolutely been the best part of what I’ve discovered from martial arts. It’s something I was interested in, even as a teenager going to the library - when I didn’t even know what it was. Then through kungfu found Ch’an (Zen) which is essentially a collaboration of Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism. I love it. It’s really a pursuit of the science of Life, and Living. It’s not about discussing what’s unknowable, nor about preparing to die. It’s about living to the fullest, in a way that doesn’t purposely harm others. The real deal traditions also do not allow teachers to charge money or favors for teaching either. There’s a big difference though between spiritual taoism and religious / folk taoism. I was probably headed towards atheism, until I had some very real, replicatable experiences in Southeast Asia.
He calls it fantasy based or a hook, but I think that’s wrong. What he calls fantasy, is actually legitimate physical culture, it tells a story. There’s a great book about it on Tai Chi, Shaolin and the Opera. People just don’t know how to separate the physical culture side of the movements from the martial side (which is actually rooted in Weaponry, Wrestling and Grappling, not Striking)
EliteBlackSash you’re probably still an atheist unless you believe that a god exists?
What are these replicable experiences you had in south east Asia?
Ok, well, advertise your own religion/ideology, your personal one point solution, but I think you missed the whole point what they were talking about.
Only one point: Living live the fullest, without harming others, is not the same as being helpful to others, it can also be very autistic, depends on what is "the fullest" for an individual. It could also mean dwelling in the basement, doing meth and playing video games all week. I find that a very empty formula, not expressing anything concrete and not a positive perspective towards other people, because "not harming" is a negative relation, not a positive one.
I am fully convinced that as a human being, "the fullest" always has to include to have a social life, not only to be in a very special spot of your own, be it mentally or physically, even if you don´t hurt others. That could also happen in total isoltion, and that should not be a constant state of mind or of life to be in.
@@jaymiddleton1782 and you think that you can live life the fullest rejecting the soul and spirit and having an inside? That is just living life distracted.
Erjon Dividi what do you mean rejecting the soul?
What soul?
@@jaymiddleton1782 it looks like you have a lot to learn about spirituality. Start with baghawad gitta.
This is a topic that seems to be important to a lot of people, but it is extremely odd to see here (not that I'm complaining, I've been looking into this stuff for many years).
I'm a secular atheist and I find it so strange that people think spirituality must involve the supernatural or any form of craziness besides just straight up "self-awareness + self-improvement". To me that's all it needs to be, and all it ever will be to me. It's also kind of interesting to see some comments suggest you're either "doing it wrong" or "need to find the right one". Unfortunately there are several properties and aspects shared between basically all systematic spiritualities that cause issues and self destructive tendency if you don't have the tools to deal with oncoming problems. Not to mention the Jehovah's Witnesses thing and creationism... god I hate creationism. If anyone thinks it's not a real movement then they really need to look up people like Ray Comfort and Kent Hovind and check whether or not people actually believe them or not. The US is a little bit crazy with these conspiracy ideas...
When you look into this stuff enough from the inside subjectively, and then the outside as objectively as you possibly can, the less spirituality seems to make sense. But that depends on your reasoning I guess.
A more suitable term for self-improvement would be self-lessening, because generally the less self you’ll have the better it actually will function.
We're all part Spirit part flesh/sinners. You ironically were led to say god I hate creationism.
I guarantee you are religious. If you are in the west you were forced indoctrinated by polytheist Occultists Luciferian rulers mindslayers programmers into the blind faith forced indoctrination religion of racist savages called EVOLUTION and the modern day return to Babylonian Luciferian occult science religion called SCIENTISM.
There are many ways to reach the top of the mountain.
You say you’re an atheist so have you considered arguments of William Lane Craig
@@nietzschesmustache4100 have you considered that religions can’t all be true since even religions like Christianity and Islam disagree on basic concepts like the nature of God
I pretty well had this guy figured as a Sam Harris groupee. It was good to confirm this. Sam Harris isn't much better than those he condemns. - This idea he pushes that somehow we can only speak about we know, but then proceeds speak about what he doesn't know and claims it is "science". Interesting his experience with fundamentalist as positive and leftist as negative, that has been my experience as well. We probably could have a good conversation.
Sam is good on some topics , not so great on others. He should have stuck to religion.
I would love to talk on these topics sometime. I too have noticed these similarities between martial arts and religious/ spiritual life both in good and bad ways.
Business of spirituality 🤗
i strictly believe whatever you give yourself to with the full understanding of what it is one automatically becomes apart of it yet the lack of understanding about spiritually in the martial arts is where many make great errors yet its not for everybody each to their own ways of factions
depends on who you talk to and who you learn from. There are some people who are very spiritually refined and super loving individuals...but there are also the fundamentalists and new agers that give religion/spirituality a bad rep because they are not properly trained. The spiritual training should make you function better not become worse. If you become worse then something went wrong
interesting!
When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad.
Correct!
With the eastern arts there's a saying that is very true and it's that you become what you practice. Whether it's martial arts or some type of spiritual thing it's just a tool used to develop something. The question is who is using it
It's just another way of saying i believe things that are not evidence based.
I recommend Thomas Merton
Fantasy based martial arts that uses spirituality to get you hooked great example of this is Ninjitsu.
Ninjitsu isn’t a martial art.
@@blackfoxhound6801 There is no evidence that Ninjitsu was ever a historical martial art however during the 1980s as a result of Ninja becoming popular characters in films there was some dojos or martial arts schools that sold what they taught under the name of Ninjitsu usaully these schools were rather Mcdojo like and they spent alot of there time basically playing make believe rather than teaching effective fighting skills."Ninjitsu is not a real martial art"You can definantly say this is true in the sense that it was never a historical martial art style to begin with and that alot of modern Ninjitsu schools are nothing more than mcdojos.
Gary Naccarto I’m sure the only martial arts that ninjas ever did though was Taijitsu,Jujitsu, And Koppo jutsu.
@@blackfoxhound6801 If Ninja practiced any martial it would have been whatever martial arts that were typically done in Japan at the time not only did Ninja not have a specialized fighting style but alot of what they historically did had nothing to do with fighting.
Gary Naccarto and The Martial arts that I mentioned were typically done in that time.
Black and white. Left and right. People love the dualism. Make some categories. Place some labels. Humans like to argue and debate about what exists and doesn't exist. And then they hang on to those concepts.
Every fighter has to adapt every technique to his body, his speed, his understanding. Mr. Thornton did not have neither speed, nor understanding, nor body of Bruce Lee. And this is why he has developed his own style. Yet, he should not criticize somebody who has proven his style to be brilliant.
Why did you re upload this video? I forgot what part I was at now!
I had to fix some unexpected issues
Martial Arts Journey then perhaps check your content before uploading them? I hate when UA-camrs do this. I was watching this bits at a time. Now there’s no point.
CatSenju stop bitching bro haha Jesus watch or don’t
Reggie Matthews no.
Maybe gather more information why it happened before judging and making it all about yourself.
Baby out with the bath water springs to mind (as a continual pattern this guy has gone through). I see this commonly from people raised in highly religious upbringing, its seems very all or nothing, either I'm a guru teaching other or no I'm an atheist? how about maybe your experiences mean something to you...and that's it? why the need to proclaim to others? its the proclamation I take issue with not the belief (which this guy is still doing now from a secular pov)
😎🤗
I think there's an interesting non-parallelism(?) between what Matt describes as a sort of spiritual path (clear questioning, critical thinking, and acting) and the Buddhist eightfold path which is sometimes divided into three parts: virtue, meditation, and discernment. Both paths start with some sort of desire or question, and both involve some sort of thinking in line with reality, but the "structure" is different. In Buddhism, embarking on the path starts with a search out of suffering, then necessarily starts with (1) cultivating virtue (moral discipline, right action), which precedes (2) peace of mind and/or supports meditation, which precedes (3) insight or understanding; virtue naturally supports clarity of mind which naturally allows one to see things more clearly as they are, eventually leading to the end of suffering (so the Buddha taught). This is a goal which is more clearly defined than "happiness"; "happiness" has many causes (including virtue, for example, or a candy) and different flavors but freedom from suffering has one flavor, which is just freedom. What that feels like is unknown to the practitioner unless they fully commit to the path and have guidance from a good teacher to bring them to the end - however they are able to gauge for themselves whether or not they are suffering, as we all are, and this ability to discern suffering and its cessation is a result of each of the factors of the path, especially the three factors of Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right meditation ("right" meaning "in tune" or perhaps "appropriate for realizing the cessation of suffering")
On this note I think that it's valid to say one can grow spiritually through a martial art, but I think it's wrong to say that BJJ can take one further than a religion or traditional martial art (and I'm biased of course), because the outcome of one's path in BJJ obviously depends on the teacher and what's being taught. There are certain aspects of human existence (and I don't mean intellectual existential questions like "what happens after we die") that are more directly touched in a genuine spiritual community (e.g. a well-established Buddhist sangha) than they are in a class where everyone's after relatively vague goals such as "growth" or "happiness". If martial lessons are necessary for overall growth, then Buddhist monks would be teaching them, which the Buddha actually forbade them from doing.
I think it's also interesting to note that much of the negativity associated with spirituality in this video is based on experiences connected to more commercialized and/or westernized schools rather than, say, traditions which entirely depend on genuine generosity (not manipulation of followers) and have different or fewer social obligations and responsibilities than modern teachers like Sam Harris, despite being connected quite deeply to a wide community (of supporters and followers).
I guess it should be also said that the only thing I have that convinces me of this sort of position is the character of the people I spent with in these settings, besides my own "spiritual experiences". They are the most inspiring people I've ever met and I never felt like I was being manipulated by them, and I've never been expected to pay a cent to them. They talk a lot, but not as much as they walk (or sit quietly).
tonbonthemon it’s physicality. Exercise. In the Shaolin temple it took the form of kung fu but it could easily have been jogging. You just need to be physically active, that’s key.
I don’t like the term spirituality though. It’s vestigial.
@@jaymiddleton1782 But actually, if I remember correctly, many forms of exercise are prohibited in the vinaya; walking meditation (or long pilgrimages on foot) are usually the physicality most monks get. And again, if physicality (as in some sort of exercise) was an absolute necessity, then monks without any working arms and/or legs would have no chance at development.
@@jaymiddleton1782 I have to correct myself: there is no vinaya rule set by the Buddha which forbade exercise, though one of his disciples did not speak highly of those keen on keeping the body in "strong shape". In any case, physical exercise on the level of martial arts was not considered necessary for the Buddha's discipline. There are monks who do practice things like yoga and qigong for their health, but the ones I know see it more as a skillful means to develop mindfulness and maintain good health. There are also well accomplished monks who are content with just walking. What matters is: does it lead to freedom or not? If physical exercise increases suffering or unwholesome mental states for somebody, it's worth putting into question their "need" to keep exercising. It differs from person to person, but generally deepening one's attachment to the body is not conducive to peace.
tonbonthemon remember the story of the monk who kept raising his hand to ask a question? His master cut it off for him, and this was his moment of sartori.
I don’t know what the path would be for a no-armed no-legged monk, they would have to find some way of being physical as it is vital.
If you are feeling sad now go for a jog and you will feel better.
I have always considered " Spirituallity" to be nonsense , seeing as how there are no spirits.
Depends what you mean by it. A spirit is something that by definition is non material. Some think that soul and spirit are the same, but i feel that in general it refers to human consciousness, which is by no means physical and cannot be felt by our rather limited senses. We know energy exists for example, even if in most cases we do not see it. However, most things labeling themselves as "spiritual" today are just lies, usually used by people who want money from you.
I can confirm there are spirits l usually drink a copious amount of them every Saturday night
I think the most important thing he discovered when he became an Atheist. Is that atheist have their own narcissistic (progressive) religion. It's a cult, just like the Jehovah Witness. In fact I'd take a debate with a religious fundamentalist over a secular fundamentalist anyway. Matt has a strong moral code. But even he can't definitely separate that from his Christian upbringing. Imagine secularism once it reaches 4-5 generations deep if it causes this much chaos in it's infancy?
"I was deeply involved"... so deeply that I gave up. Another ego-enthusiast defeated by his own doubts. The same as with the unlearned Aikido-mastery. The problem is that death is inevitable, and this problem is not solved by idle talk in a UA-cam company. You will really feel the "dark side" then, but it will be the "dark side" of your unreleased fear. "Regarding the Path - there are two mistakes. One is not to start. And the other is not to go through it to the end" - Buddha.
Another arrogant spiritual person believing he knows better than others, criticizing and wanting others to believe their personal opinion as truth
@@MartialArtsJourney And Aikido works perfectly, and spiritual research works, and all who have a real and pure intention get a real result. The rest justify themselves with their own opinion and defend it. Instead of admitting to themselves that they were in illusions that they could not deal with, they simply denied everything that they could not understand in depth. Neither you nor your interlocutor obviously has no inner peace, you obviously live in your own imaginations, and you obviously have no way of really understanding either the dark or the light side of spirituality. And that's why you're left to chatter on UA-cam about this topic. I sincerely wish you to get real inner peace. But for this purpose you must look for the people in whom it is present. And when you discover them, don't run away from them if they tell you things that your ego doesn't like.ua-cam.com/video/NW45d518vls/v-deo.html
The beer you guys are drinking looks weird.
Looks like water
How can you be an atheist if you see life...There must be a mind behind this it is like seeing a house and thinking you can throw the materials up in the air and hoping a house will form.Evidence based thinking suggests that must be a mind behind the house otherwise it won’t exist 🥴
The onto-relationality of the Trinity speaks to these questions.
Bilbo Baggins shame it doesn’t exist then, eh?
@@jaymiddleton1782 it? The Trinity is a who. What do you mean by exist? How do you "know". You are a creature after all. You exist in and are born out of relationship. You are in fact onto-relational and are wired for relationship.
Where does your love for people come from? What are your passions? Did you choose them? Did " you" choose to be here? You willed yourself into existence?
" You".... by the way is a relational term. It is neuter. The Trinity is a "They". They don't exist would be correct.
Oh nevermind ...you don't exist.
You should read some TF Torrance....... and Michael Polanyi on Tacit foreknowledge and tacit knowledge truthful knowing. Good shit.
Unless you're satisfied with this level of discourse. I forgot ...there's nothing higher than Daniel Dennet.... Sam Harris... Chris Hitchens and Richard Dawkins.
Granted there are many (most) that are lower.... but also those at a higher level of thought (obviously).
Too bad you're too lazy to read.
What about Alan Watts..... Joseph Campbell or Carl Jung?
Mommy.
Bilbo Baggins you’re making the claim that a trinity exists.
Do you have any way of substantiating that claim, or do you just not care if what you believe is true?
@@jaymiddleton1782 I could ask you the same question. I asked you many questions ....none of which you answered and provided you with some good sources.
So you're with Boethius ... you're a neo-platonist who thinks that a person is an individual substance of a rational nature.
The question of the Trinity goes back to Athanasius and the Nicene Creed. ( and before obvy) .
I didn't come up with the concept..... but I find it a good template to explore...and approach the mystery of our existence.
How do you "know" what exists and what doesn't?
In your head.?
Are you a Cartesian dualist?
A mechanistic Newtonian Deist?
Lol.
Or do your thoughts and beliefs come from you ex nihilo?
What is your epistemology?
Our culture is largely one of propaganda.... religous and otherwise. I'm interested in deeper questions.
We are in relationship for instance. What does that mean?
Bilbo Baggins you’re dancing around the point. We don’t need to talk about epistemology or ontology - you’re making a claim and that claim comes with a burden of proof.
On what grounds do you claim a trinity exists?
Great talk. Amazingly honest.
One thing to add: In the whole history only one (!) human being said: "I am the way", not: "I'll show you the way": Jesus.
So the most important question is: Is this true? Therefore: How can I verify that (evidence based!) today?
I remember a daoist kind-of saying that was like: ‘you’re both the way and the one walking on it.’ Which I equavalate to ‘you’re both life and the one experiencing it.’
Also Krishnamurti wrote somewhere something like: ‘I am the way.’
Your not factually correct.
I think Bruce Lee said that
I’ve been into both science and spirituality for over 30 years, and my personal observation from this experience is that every new scientific discovery we make about life and the universe only adds another proof to what was written in spiritual scripts thousands of years ago. For that reason, one of my all time favourite quotes remains this one: “When science finally reaches the pinnacle of knowledge, it will discover that religion was there all the time”. I don’t remember the exact quote or who said it, but you get the point. And being a true critical thinker myself, I find no problem with balancing spirituality (no particular religion) with my values, family, etc. I find the whole experience enriching not just for me but for people surrounding me. The key is not to become fanatic on either side of spiritual spectrum - atheism or religion.
VoidedTea you’re not a true critical thinker.
If you were you would never assign a truth value to an unsubstantiated claim.
You would also recognise that you’re making a type of god of the gaps argument, where god or spirituality or religion are confined to the ever receding gaps in human knowledge.
The notion that if these gaps are ever completely receded it will prove religion is your own completely unfounded assumption.
Jay Middleton - didn’t I mention that any new knowledge we acquire only substantiates the existence of spiritual reality? This is like the opposite of god of the gaps you are referring to. Matter and antimatter, parallel realities, coexistence of wave and particle forms of the same matter, quantum theory - these are all true scientific discoveries. But they only make stronger argument for what we might call a spiritual realm. Aren’t they?
VoidedTea no, they don’t make a stronger argument for what me might call a “spiritual realm” any more than they are evidence for “opposite land” or “ice cream world.”
Just because quantum mechanics is super spooky doesn’t mean it justifies super spooky beliefs, it’s only evidence for what’s evident it’s not evidence that a spiritual world or any kind of god exists.
Think about all the times in human history where the answer to a question was god, or spirituality. Things like thunder being the voice of god, or rain falling because of gods will. We have hundreds of thousands of examples of things like this. How often, when investigated, has it been discovered to actually be caused by god or spirituality?
Never.
Every time we investigate into something we believe is caused by a spiritual realm, when we’ve actually investigated, it always turns out to be mundane.
Old Bruce Lee was a fellow atheist
How did morality evolve?
Marlinspike Mate morality is a label we apply to the behaviour patterns we believe are beneficial.
Jay Middleton beneficial then is a matter of perspective. Hitler thought it was beneficial to exterminate a group of people. Others think it is beneficial to kill babies up to birth. Don’t know if that holds up.
Marlinspike Mate we both agree that Hitler was wrong though, don’t we? That’s a behaviour pattern that we think is not beneficial, so we call it immoral. That’s what morality is.
Jay Middleton You say “we” as if humans are united on moral issues, but that couldn’t be further from the truth on just about any issue. Your definition of morality has no foundation, standard, or bearing, and is just what you, not we, deem beneficial at any moment and can make for a pretty scary definition. Many would argue it might be beneficial for society to abort people with Down syndrome, but does that make it moral by your definition? The ancient Spartans found it beneficial to kill weak, defected children in order to have the strongest group of hoplites in Greece, which they were, but was this moral?
Marlinspike Mate like I said morality is just a label that we apply to behaviour sets that we deem beneficial. So it is subjective, this is why you find different cultures having different moral standards.
But the penny has just dropped - you’re making a god claim here aren’t you? You’re saying we can’t be moral without god?
I’m sorry I thought you were asking a sincere question. The only thing I can say is that the morality of the religious is just as subjective as everyone else’s, but religious people are more likely to claim that their morality is objective or absolute, which in itself is immoral.
Sorry bro, your points about islam are coming from an outsider who has 0 understanding of the religion.
I am an Athiest but grew up in the middle east and have decent understanding of the 3 Abrahamic faiths. Islamic texts from my experience are far less violent than anything i've read in the old testament.
A daft person would argue that ww1 and ww2 (to name just a few displays of western barbarism) are symptoms of violence taught by christianity itself, without having any historic context to the politics of the time.
Islam looks better only if you don't make the distinction between sanction and description and the evolution from anthropromorphic projections to a deeper engagement of God's calling and intention, which Judaism did go through and became conscious by the time of patristic Christianity. Islam, on the other hand, is a throwback to a developmental stage between that of the era of the Judges and that of the true, classical prophets but tending more toward the former.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT permitted to marry non-JWs. So, Matt’s mother violated the rules of that religion by being married to a non-JW. My aunt’s housekeeper is also a JW, and she “regularly” violates the rules of the church. She’s not allowed to participate in holiday parties, but she does anyway.
fascinating human here
should u be tolerant of intolerance? is the question
and no you shouldn't be
You need a second channel bro. This seems waaaaaay off topic, and I got into Zen because of martial arts
So you got into Zen because of martial arts and this is way off topic?
I dont want to sound whateverist but I cannot imagine this discussion where one is a guy and the other is a woman. dont know why. can somebody tell me why I cannot figure this happening? like imagine if this discussion happens on a date........ or even 2 women.... or is there a video like this out? just curious
The whole story about conservatives and progressives, and people’s approach to politics has nothing to do with spiritual traditions or practices, other than the fact politics in this country has become extremely cruel and selfish. But that has to do with the state of discourse in this country, not really self cultivation practice. People shouldn’t let others shortcomings keep that from Practices that work for them. My wife goes through this wife the way people act at yoga class. But yoga saved her life, physically. If the practice works, the people within some random social / peer group really don’t matter. Learn the practice, apply it, and move on.
My fav story about the Buddha character goes like this... someone kept bugging him why he wouldn’t spend time to talk about the nature of the cosmos, birth and death, etc, really high abstract things. And in the story he explains it like this... If you were shot with a poison arrow, would you care who shot the arrow, what tribe is he from, what the arrow is made of, why nation is he from, etc etc, or would you concern yourself with removing the arrow and treating the poison, before you die? I’m concerned with addressing the things that cause suffering and lead to death, the rest is extra, it’s not really important that you... knowing it won’t help you deal with your suffering, in the here and now... the practice of the Path will. So that is why it is what I focus on.
Agree this is the point. These guys in the video talks like they are full of knowledge but they can't realise how much they are incorrect.
Never heard that JW:s teach that humans co-existed with dinosaurs, I believe that is more the view of evolutionist that some proto-humans lived a millions of years ago with dinosaurs. Here is what I googled: www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/dinosaurs-in-the-bible/
Are you saying that evolution believers think that a proto-human lived at the same time as dinosaurs? I think you might want to go back to school. But like a normal public school like a normal person.
The necessity of role models is questionable. It's better for teens (and everybody, for that matter) to learn to base their opinions and behavior on critical thinking rather than on what a particular role model would do or say. Role models are often not a good guide to behavior. As for Matt's example of rebellious teens who hang Che Guevara posters on their wall, that says more about Matt's politics than about the teens' maturity. Che Guevara, whatever his flaws, was against US intervention in other countries. He was, above all, an anti-imperialist. During the last decade of Che's life, the US was waging a very unpopular war to sustain an unpopular regime in South Vietnam. Moreover, the US was supporting a lot of military dictatorships throughout the world. Sure, Che Guevara might not be a good role model in Matt's opinion, but a rebellious youth could do a lot worse than looking up to Che. In any case, it would be better for anybody to base his or her opinions on critical thinking rather than on what a particular role model would do or say.
It was mostly a two person dialog sharing their experience how they were playing with knife and cut themselves eventually. And then decided that knife is dangerous thing and people should avoid using it. But if you use knife the right way, it can be a great tool in life :)
Examples?
Using your metaphor instead I would say this is a conversation between two people who spent decades devoted to practicing with a knife with the best masters in the world to eventually realize, that it is not the tool that most people claim it to be and that there are better tools out there.
This is a good point. Follow this conversation and we can dig to deeper depths
@@MartialArtsJourney I doubt your claim of "best masters" considering your progress. A good teacher or master is characterized by guiding people along the way to not fall into the pitfalls. You guys could not discriminate between what is popular and what is good. In Buddhism discrimination is one of the most important traits, to understand what is beneficient and what is not.
In the way for the" use of knife metapher", for example cutting your food makes it easier to chew and have a healthy digestion. But like the one above implies, it depends on the will/mentality of the user. Ever watched children running around with a knife in a sugar rush? How can these guys end with a positive experience? They need the guidance of the parents to change it into a pleasant one.
Same with spirtuality, never wondered how monks are able the burn themselves, why for samurai who cut each other in half buddhism prevailed or christians letting themselves feed to lions and celebrate this?
Spirituality practiced the right way is "the way of stress and the ending of stress" like for example buddha called it. Another feature is that it makes "wholesome" you know holy comes from healing, which is a way of reconnect what belongs together.
Right spirituality makes strong, firm, fearless and supports in such incredible ways. Some people even argue that spirituality makes rich.
Took the spiritual path and ended up seeing demons and breaking my lamp by touching it, senses were way too fine tuned and had to go backwards a bit and relearn how to be a good laddie lol anyone else experience similar things?
Fascinating that Narcissism is such a big theme in these situations. Critical Race Theory/ethnic Marxism in schools/healthcare & work is impacting people in their daily lives though. Some people can be happy for distance away from it, others are in the midst of it, the politics and ideology is seeping.
If you're trying to make a balanced point, you probably shouldn't expose extremism in your examples.
22:10 Question: why would anyone care for values or being a good person if in the end we were faced with plain material desintegration? Is there a reason for living a life acordingly to standards if the all you will eventually be consumed up by entrophy? You may have not considered that yet, but since you know the question, give some pause to reflect on the subject. And as it is fairly dangerous to pretend to know that wich you know not, it is equally dangerous to pretend to know not that wich you know perfectly well.
If one believes we simply cease to exist in one's entirety upon one's death, than there's still the journey of life...
I believe when you die, you die, that's it, you dead the end there is no separate soul that goes to heaven or hell and all that jaz... so believing that, is there still incentive to 'be a good person' ? Yes... I'm not guaranteed to die tomorrow, even if *I* plan on it... I could fail miserably rendering myself incapable of completing the task... so there's a chance that tomorrow I have to live with the consequences of my actions today ... also, cooperation can make my stay here on earth much nicer... so yes you can believe nothing happens when you die and still have reason to be a good person.
@@binaryglitch64
I never had the experience of nothingness.
Out of nothing only nothing comes, back to nothing only nothing goes.
To expected and await nothingness out of death is also a belief.
I can´t reason for it as I also can´t believe it.
@@klausehrhardt4481 nothingness and eternity are equal in that respect.
@@binaryglitch64
Toughtfull answer.
But I have to add that you deem it so in respect to your own opinion, wich sumarized would mean that eternity is another boring, improper or even sacrilegious nickname for nothingness, I presume.
As for me, the implications of accepting nothingness as a principle and as an end is only acceptable as a poetic uterrance of emptiness that stands far from accounting all the wides and breadths of human experience, as it goes for every poetry else. It is just a bad dream. W.G. Leibnitz once asked it aloud: Why something instead of nothing? I go further: Why someone instead of nothing? I´m a person - why don´t you believe me? :D
Compassion dude. Life is going to go on after you are gone. Empathy. Caring about the suffering of others. You can't take anything with you. It all must be left behind.
The only way to the farther is through the son so don't say nobody ever told you and of course you make more money by allowing as many people as possible
What you call spirituality is simply wishful thinking imbued with big words. Real spirituality is something that exists beyond words.
Where are the training videos? Calm chats about esoteric stuff is nice and all, but I wanna see kicks, punches and chokes!
This guy needs to read more deeply than Daniel Dennet and Richard Dawkins. Try TF Torrance and Karl Barth.
Bilbo Baggins “This guy needs to read more Christian theology.”
@@jaymiddleton1782 good theology and good science. Dennet Dawkins Harris and Hitchens are great at pointing out the stupidity of much low level religious nonsense...... but their thought seems to stagnate there. They don't engage anything above them. They are popular writers for this reason.... obviously.
Bilbo Baggins they attack the fundamental validity of the god claim.
@@jaymiddleton1782 I've read them. They attack a very low level "idea" of a bankrupt epistemology. Like I said they don't engage anything above them intellectually because they don't think there is anything above them. Anyway I recommend TF Torrance and Michael Polanyi but whatever floats your boat.🤣
@@jaymiddleton1782 Why attack something you "know" to be patently false? It's a question of epistemology.
Look done karate wingchun boxing to me the most dangerous move in your art is rear naked choke you turn some one sideways on seal that and do care who are your done boxing wingchun karate your done full stop and these vedlos or lts easy to get out of this elbow some one grab groin listen lcan tell you try that 5 may be 7 seconds or your out one to one your art is best only problem is 2 people you have aproblem put ever art weakness put saying tat lwouild sooner go one round with Mike Tysoe the get arear naked sideways or on back full sealed on me lhave had that done and sonner get punched in the face
Playing with darkness that's why it's called spiritualness of martial arts.
No, they usually practice in well lit conditions.
These guys in the video talk like they are full of knowledge but they can't realise how much they are incorrect.
allahu akbar!
mashallah
Yehovah god and yeshua mashiach messiah.
Come to Jesus Christ. He loves you very much.
Good example
I highly recommend Matt to learn Islam more deeply, try to watch lectures of Hamza Yusuf - American Phd
Yusuf hamzah is not a muslim, he is a sufi. Tasawuf is not islam. Its bida'ah.
Islam and Sufism are both horseshit. Spirituality as a whole is nonsense. @@misterprogressive8730
Sergiy Bondarenko I recommend nobody waste their time learning the debunked nonsense claims of ancient tribes
@@MohseenLala your comment is nonsense
That's YOUR opinion. @@misterprogressive8730
Both of these guys are incorrect.
First of all religion is not spirituality. If you don't know the difference, this video is null.
Second you can't apply science in apirituality in faith, that is why is called faith. But without faith you can't live. Example like the faith in your confidence. Is there any real evidence in your self esteem?? There isn't but still you can't live without it.
You should be ashamed of yourself about the lies you represent in this video, you really have a lot to learn. I unsubsribe from this channel.