Is Sport BJJ Bad for Self Defense? • Ft. Matt Thornton
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2018
- Many people question whether sport bjj can actually hurt your understanding or performance in a self defense situation. Join me as I talk to BJJ legend Matt Thornton about this question.
What do you think? Does sport bjj enhance or hurt self defense skills? What do you think is the best self defense method? Do you think BJJ is good for self defense in general?
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This is one of the last segments of the talk with Matt Thornton. Next one will be the last part and then I'll release the full talk both as a video and as a podcast. Enjoy!
There is an old saying "You will fight the way you train."
Great saying it is
but sport jj still develops some bad habits to do in a street fights which can be dangerous some times but usually the skill gap will give the bjj practitioner a big advantage
I think it depends on how you choose to train. If you pull guard alot, and milk the rules, you're developing bad habits. If you like to get the takedown, be the the guy on top and get quick submissions, you're developing good habits
I think that fighting on the ground is a last resort, and that BJJ is an excellent addition to self-defense skills, like for one who knows boxing well enough (not pro.), then adding BJJ would give you great advantage and help in self-defense. Peace!
Peter Bate, nothing in your comment was wrong but I would say that in a stand up fight all it takes is one good punch and your out, but if you get close achieve the clench and take him down it would normally end the fight a lot faster...I personally have used jiu jitsu in self defense when I was in a fight with a bully. He tried to double leg sweep me and I grabbed his head and choked him out in front of his friends. If you wanna be a self defense pro then I would suggest learning boxing, kick boxing, and jiu jitsu
On another note stand up grappling arts like Catch Wrestling or Judo. We are talking self defense right? Not a sport. Let me throw someone on the ground that gives me the opportunity to run. And an art that provides take down defense cause the last thing I want is to be taken to a he ground and fight on the ground. Throw opponent on the ground kick him maybe and run.
Depends if BJJ is good for self defense. Personally in a self defense situation I don’t want to fight on the ground but would want to know about take down defense and learn how to get someone to the ground without fighting on the ground this way I have the opportunity to run. Stand up grappling art is better for self defense IMO.
Marc Possoff it's been proven to be the most effective. Nothing is 100%. Some stand up arts like pure JJ still hold to its effectiveness when no sparring is done. One of the best ways to survive an altercation is to feel comfortable with real violence, real aggressiveness. This will also avoid an adrenaline dump, which can drain your strength in an instant. Every martial art is effective including Aikido in a one on one 'will attack you fight'. But if it's a in your face swinging arms type encounter if you both fall on the ground if he's stronger/faster if you know 0% bjj you're in big trouble. As far as the difference in sport and SD. Choose a school which starts a spar from standing or has a 'self-defence' element headlocks/punches to give you that extra confidence when you need it.
One thing that's just as important with self-defense that BJJ is great for, that NO ONE talks about is takedown RECOVERY.
I fight off my back a lot in BJJ. I don't plan to pull guard in a self-defense situation. But I do know that if I GET in the worst case position, I know I've done the best training I possibly can to get out of that position, and that I think is a very underestimated value for self-defense in BJJ a lot of people don't realize.
My BJJ instructors didn't teach me to 'take a fight to the ground'. They taught me to work out of the most dangerous positions, and placed the most importance on being able to survive those first.
PeaceAndLove I much prefer Catch Wrestling.
PeaceAndLove Catch definitely has submissions both standing up and on the ground. What I like about Catch is the stand up grappling aspect. Catch also teaches you how to defend a takedown and how to get off the ground. IMO Catch is more practical than BJJ.
Top control is the best in a one-on-one self-defense situation, but obviously that is situational. Against multiple attackers you want to strike and use a lot of footwork insofar as you don't have an opportunity to run. Any grappling whatsoever tends to at least partially immobilize you, which is the last thing you want if there are multiple opponents. Moral of the story is be well-rounded and always assess the situation first when you're in danger.
"Speak softly.
And carry an air of arrogance with a solid triangle choke in the streets of Baltimore."
Said no Wise man ever.
My BJJ school also runs a combat BJJ class and in this we learn about using BJJ in street fights so we do a lot of training on blocking strikes and closing the distance to do a takedown but the takedowns we use are single leg takedowns or body fold take downs where you stay on your feet and the idea is to run away after you have taken them to the ground. We also do a lot of work from the bottom in side control or in mount etc where the person on top is striking and you have to defend yourself from their strikes and sweep them off of you so you can get up and run away. Amazing class.
Whether you want to fight on the ground or not you'll at least want to be able to get off it. BJJ is necessary just for that, so you know how to get from the bottom to a dominant position if (really more like when) you get brought to the floor. From there you can knock the guy out or, in the extremely rare multi- attacker scenario, stand up and run your ass out of there.
TheJaranggigi
wouldn't regular wrestling be the best for that then
Regular wrestling is pretty great for that too, I'll be honest. I wouldn't say better or worse in this case, they're both powerful and effective styles of grappling and for self-defense you could pick either and come out pretty safe against being floored. BJJ is just more generally available since Wrestling classes are kind of rare outside of high schools and Colleges. There are places like the Snake Pit where you can learn Catch Wrestling but they don't have anywhere near the number of locations that Gracie-Barra or 10th Planet have so unless you want to pay a tuition fee the latter two are usually your main options.
Bjj would differ in its ability to be offensive when on the ground and how to defeat a stronger untrained opponent via skill.
Depends on what you apply to self defense. If you try to gain points and end up in holds you're gonna die when the enemy blinds you. He'll been trying to kill. You can use what you learn but you got understand movement and technique
I really liked your video man, got one more subscriber ;) and btw, given some stories I shared earlier, I say this, that I am a man of peace. If some guy wants to fight me for some silly ego-driven, alcohol-courage fueled fool, I use words and posture to stop a fight before he tries to punch me. Fighting is not cool, only in situations that truly require it is it something one should utilize, imo. Fighting only in defense of my own person and loved ones, and maybe helping out someone who is clearly DONE but still being hit - then I try to tell the attackers/winners, whatever, that, man, it is enough, he is done done, he will end up needed real hospitalization and you will end up in a legal mess,,,,etc.
Peace and love ya'll ;)
Hello my brother I have another jewel( knowledge ) to drop too you from my 2 year mma journey. I often hear the question can you use a traditional art in MMA ? I always say yes and no. I can explain There are good things to learn from traditional and self defense combatives. But the catch is it will be difficult to use it by itself even if you mix it with 2 non functional arts against a modern MMA practitioner . This is what you have to do. You have to learn basics from MMA stand up, clinch, and ground first. Then you will be able to use different styles later. But the question is how much can be used? Well what people dont understand if your using a style that dont have a solid entry or it doesn't have a grappling base with resistance, dont have a clinch game then you will be unable to fight with skill so it sounds like you need the MMA foundation just like what I said from the beginning. Lets break down Akido you know from your experience it doesn't have an effective entry and it doesn't work well in the clinch. But if you train your bjj for about 2 years then go back and use wrist locks from Akido while on the ground. The one thing grappling does is give a person the ability to neutralize the arms and hands because of the gravity being on the ground versus in stand up or clinch range where a person hands has a lot of play and its more difficult to wrist grab from that range. How do I know this? when you become functional and stand up , clinch and ground you know what works because your doing the progressive restiance. I hope this help my brother dont listen to anyone that want to change your mind to go back to dead training IT DON'T WORK. Always remember deception makes money but truth hurts feelings and make you look at yourself in th mirror you have to make the choice. If I were to have my partners from my JKD days whom trained 2 days a week versus a MMA athlete whom train 2 days a week and they both train for a year and match them against each other. The MMA athlete would destroy that non functional JKD student it would like a beating versus seeing skill against skill. When you see styles of arts have all these drills, theories, and weird technical strategies that only work with some one whom is asked to just throw a telegraphed punch and leave it out while the person do all these to dangerous to spar techniques do not train with them. They will sell you a theory that only works against unskilled people in weird scenario training that you will never see a skilled athlete use dont mess with it. Truth in combat must come first over deception for money so they can learn quick and easy classes with a certificate then become this combat commando expert that can not even show you escapes from bottom mount with resistance . If you decide to train with someone from the fantasy styles ask then to go beyond the introduction of the technique and show you how it works with full resistance and see the body language they give you.
This is my take my brother I was a person as well that was from JKD concept and yes normally people like me at that time want only the self defense and a quick class and be a weekend master. On the other hand you can not defend what you dont know . Train the bjj with strikes but the person or curriculum needs to have rolling included. Now hear me closely. People that came from my back round deep down dont want to learn mma or bjj because when they see it they know instantly that its not a quick 2 day course and get a certificate and picture then become this Guro that opens some money making scam filled with patty cake drills tactics that only work on unskilled people . What they noticed is what I seen once a part of time is MMA, BJJ you have to develop skill to make the techniques work and that takes timeeee and its harddddd. That's the real reason why people from my back round despise skill based combat. So they take quick courses that looks like grappling but you notice they use these wierd drills and they dont use resistance while they on the ground. If they do they know they will be unable to sell there product to a soccer mom who want to pay big money for a quick fix. So its pros and cons to the self defense market. I say again and again you should learn from combat sports first then go back and modify your training for self defense because then you will know what works with pressure. What people from my old back round tries to do is use the Bruce Lee philosophy with out having the strong foundation from MMA so they are mixing arts together and it look like trash. They deceive people by using these rehearsed complicated drills . But the days are better now you can try Burton Richardson MMA for the Street because he has the self-defense and MMA training methods which allow you to make things work. Sorry for the long story but people must not be tricked like I was. You cant just train for unskilled you need to train to fight anyone in any range but beat them with the self defense tactics and mma skill that's the real Buce Lee aproach. You must be honest with yourself with out lying to yourself in order to know what works you have to train with someone fighting back.
if the self defence fight is one on one, then it could work, multiple (which is really what self defence would probably be) opponents, then it would fail.Like all arts its dependent on the person, area and attacker /attackers.
if you fight one person and not many bjj is the best but if you have many opponents striking arts like boxing is the best ... the problem why many people do sports and not self defence its because self defence have a lot of loopholes and a lot of bulshido out there and prefer mma because you know that if this thing work in a trained fighter works in any person ... on the other hand judo is very good because is a martial arts that use the clothes of the opponent and this is very good thing in a self defence situation .... the only problem with the sport oriented martial art is that luck in the weapon skills and this is problematic because its a lot of crazy people out there and a lot of weapons in small size that can be deadly
Σπυρος Δρογγιτης I agree with you. The loop holes with most self defense is due to not having skill in those ranges. This is why you see those weekend cobra comando Guros use wierd tactical strategies that would only work against an un skilled person that just throw wild haymakers. Thats the 1st level because thats the easiest to defend against but then your skill suppose to advance to people who throws Jabs, cross, hooks, uppercut and have good timing and footwork now the game changes . Then you add someone who can clinch fight ( Greco Roman Wrestling ) now the game changes more. To add even more skilled training someone can take you down and choke you out now the game has become an mma fight but in the street. Thats my biggest problem that I had when I was in JKD its only for unskilled people. Skilled training is a long process. The self defense instructor knows this and he know he will not make good money if he goes the MMA route . So they decieve people to make them believe that they can take the Bruce Lee aproach and take short cuts to add different arts to create or re live another version of JKD. This type of mindset gives uneducated people the impression that you can short cut skill development for adding arts that don't work . If you dont have skill development of stand up, clinch, and ground you can not then use the Bruce Lee aproach because you will have loop holes in your self defense. There is no short cuts to skill development its either you have it or dont. Get on a mat and grapple with a grappler for 10 seconds and they will immediately see you would have no skill and they would immediately put pressure on you and choke you out. That's real truth.
i agree with you 100%
if want someone to push you then must be close to you if you know box its not easy to come close because all the boxers have great footwork the best in this situation ...knows how to protect from hits in a limit space in the ring its easy to control the opponent in open space ...for the ground its not optimal i agree but with wrestling and bjj its the base for fighting
it is very easy to get close to a boxer. I train bjj and MMA and when I go to my mma school we often get new students who have trained in boxing or muay thai who are making the transition to MMA and when I spar with them it is the easiest thing ever to close the distance and take them down to the ground. They have 0 take down defence and 0 grappling skills to sweep me off of them.
Go ahead and pull guard in a street fight. See what happens...
Anything that familiarises you with noncompliant competitive grappling is an asset. BJJ fundamentals are all that is meaningful on the street and then almost entirely the stand-up game, keeping balance, dominating a clinch. Street attack is very fast, usually sudden and often against multiples. A little stand-up wrestling and know-how on fighting back from the ground would be what I'd want to train. Self-defence is about dominating engagement or disengaging. Multiples and ambush are prime concerns. Personally, I think old-school boxing and Thai offer some great inside work for fast purposeful grappling, i.e. shutting down an attacker or breaking free from grabbing/mauling. In addition, people you are teaching self defence to are people who don't come from the fight sport world in general. They need to fast forward to the essential and that's not 2 years of BJJ, that's 2 hours of fundamental wrestling basics, if you're lucky.
The biggest issue with some BJJ is the lack of strikes in training which leads to bad habits like Matt said and some of the techniques are taught with a gi and no one wears a gi outside of a dojo
The gi is a pretty good training facsimile of what most people wear. Most people wear pants. Most people wear a jacket on the street (depending on where you live, but moreso at night.) or at least a shirt with a collar.
I actually think no-gi training is a lot more unrealistic. In no gi, I can do an iminari roll into a some kind of leg lock and tap someone new out in second, but in real life, were we're both wearing jeans, that's not going to happen.
So long as they practice takedowns (not pulling guard), takedown defense, and add striking...then yes.
If they don't do the last one, then the likelihood of it working is much more slim. Akin to training any Traditional Martial Art, and never sparring. Your body will ALWAYS DO WHAT IT IS TAUGHT, aka muscle memory. If you pull back your blows in practice, you will in demonstration. If you worry too much about a good position for BJJ competition rules, but it is likly a bad position for someone who punches, you will get hurt.
I don't think the miyao or the mendes brothers will have a problem defending themselves on the streets.
They gravitate to sports is because the gym is geared for sports rather than street defense...huge difference when a gym has a specific purpose for its students.
You need striking and a ground game
Any martial art is better than no martial art, but those who focus solely on sport fighting need to remember that the rules of the ring do not apply in the streets.
It CAN be!!!!!
gogo!
Also stephan has never been in a real fight so its funny hes in this
1 on 1 ya, but I wouldn't choose to fight on the ground, only for legal reasons and making a submission/control... but real self-defense, how can being good at BJJ help you if it is something like one against 3, or something, so... and as the man mentions, practicing taking and giving blows to the head are key to real-world situations. this is just my humble opinion... I bet a master could go through a few guys at once if he broke the arm or whatever of the first man, but even then he needs to scare the others away or....idk. This guy speaks a lot of real ish I can vibe with.
Peter Bate One against three? Chances are slim already. It rarely works out, unless they are severely intoxicated. You have been watching too many movies to believe you can honestly stop three or more guys trying to inflict harm on you.
The best self defense in that case is the running kind or where you use the boom boom stick (terminology used to help traditional martial artists understand what a gun is).
Can it be done where you beat multiple attackers? Sure it's been done, but it is extremely rare.
What If you are 1 vs 3 and get taken down? Or 1 vs 1 and get taken down, for that matter?
I have fought off 2 at once at least 2 or maybe 3 times, sadly, and was able to "win" , I kept moving and ducking and dis-balancing my opponents, keeping my hands up and fighting at close range at times where many are not comfortable.... - Iam sure they were only brawlers and not trained, but that is a common street situation, from my experiences... I am not bragging nor saying im some badass, but....this shit has happened to me...
i can scrap on the ground quite well, i only have in real life once. but if it was 3 or even two of them, and they were violent enough, theyd beat my ass the moment i got to the ground...
if a bjj dude got me on the ground, he would have to be decent enough to use his skill in real world scenario, where i am fighting back,and hard, and efficiently.... but if he was very good id have no chance once down... but i think for self-defense, boxing isbest for the amount of time needed tobe invested. I have done boxing mostly, and aikido, aikijujutsu, and ninjutsu...
Self defense can easily be translated to competition especially a real self defense not like aikido. You will learn in your journey of just simply learning to fight and defend yourself.
See I'm giving you a chance and watched a video since most have been comical I stopped watching but I'm giving you a shot and hope you give REAL informative and quality content and not useless crap of an adult who likes martial arts but doesn't know it and is now.
You are amazing Triz ENY
Martial Arts Journey lol hey look you have videos available for hundreds of millions even tho a hundred or so are interested but still, the whole world can see and do really think the world can't see for their own eyes what this is and you are? Like comon bro everyone is not a yes man n will fill your head with take pride and knowledge ya feel me. Good luck still n learn from true criticism cause that's the honest path don't get butthurt. You only like ppl that kiss your ass or only nice to u n blindly, get over it take it with salt n keep going. In the past ive commented real knowledge u said nothing , u see something you don't like bam all over it.
Sport Martial Arts are not Self Defense!
In Sport, we avoid Injury at all costs, even injuring ourself to protect our partner.
In Self Defense, we aim to cause injury until the enemy is disabled, unconscious or dead.
I think in Japan particularly, sports Karate has overtaken traditional Karate for in the vast majority of Dojos and THAT has hurt self-defense in Japan specifically. It’s the difference of “budou Karate” to “sports Karate”.
Violent criminal actors - black shape in a hoodie. Cheers
Oh this guy. Get a black belt, then talk.
Do you realize that the person talking in the video is one of the first Americans in history to receive a BJJ black belt?
:)
it does it matter a lot of persons dont have black belts and kick ass like boxers wrestlers and all others dudes just speak the truth and you will be just fine by the way great video.... belts its important to keep your pants