“Creates a resource imbalance” By that logic Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and Dockside should be banned. The longer I play commander the more I find myself not using blatantly powerful cards. They lack flavor and are extremely boring. Yeah I could jam Feast and Famine into every deck but there’s no flavor there, it’s just power. Deckbuilding is an art and the most fun and interesting games have decks where you know someone put effort into keeping it flavorful. But that’s just my opinion
In my pod, we have a saying that “sometimes, you cast a card that says, in more words than not, *I win the game,*” the obvious examples are things like Moonshaker and Thunderhoof, torment of hailfire, yes, but those are expensive and require setup, but what sucks about cards like Rhystic, Dockside, even imo the fast mana artifacts, is its not immediately “I win the game” but so many times it feels like a person had that turn 3 rhystic and we just kinda go “okay, i dont even have the mana/card draw to get to/ removal to deal with this, you win, lets shuffle up and play again” its the bane of every new player when their opponent turn land -> sol rings -> arcane signets, but that requires 3 cards out of your deck to effectively “draw the nutz” (and gets significantly easier with the other fast mana rocks) meanwhile rhystic study is a 1 card “i drew the nutz” and if there are situations where if 1/99 someone has a chance to say “i win” in those early turns, to me now the time cost is not even in the “do you pay the one” as a cost on time, its a cost on time of re-shuffling up and going “i want to play a different game where this doesnt happen”
If you see someone constant mists do you and the whole table not turn and force them to burn it every single combat? Maybe my playgroup over compensates from maze of ith trauma
The slowing the game down as an argument to ban something isn't a very compelling argument to ban cards, and using examples of bans in constructed formats with timed 50 minute rounds isn't a direct comparison.
I could tell you why I think it’s compelling. I think that there is a certain amount of time I want to spend in a game, and certainly there is only a certain amount of time I’m willing to wait on other decks. I posit It only takes some critical mass of these time consuming cards to make a game too long to tolerate. I think it’s very reasonable to say that at some point a single card is taking too much time at the table. Like theoretically if playing a single card added 20 minutes to a game I would ban that card immediately. Idk how much time cards like rhystic study take but something like scramble verse I think would be in the running for a ban.
@@TheDestroya88 I'd wager having to read and/or explain the text on the majority of cards printed in the last 5 years adds more time to a game than Rhystic Study. And while I understand not wanting to play a single game all day, there's a difference in argument between only being allocated 50 minutes to play a best 2 out of 3 round by an official, and players' personal ideas of what makes a game too long. Because of how different that threshold is going to be from person to person, having a card be banned for that reason isn't too compelling. Especially since rule 0 already exists to address more personal concerns for your individual pod.
@@Zachlareef it seems like we are approaching the ban list from a couple different angles. I understand how personal opinions may differ on what is too long and that rule 0 would cover this so to you it makes it uncompelling, but I’m not talking about personal pods I’m speaking in the context of pickup games of edh and how the ban list affects those pickup games. I thought the purpose of the ban list in edh is to signpost what kind of stuff is discouraged so I think that a ban based off time constraints would fit on the ban list very nicely. Cause of how I think that sends a strong message I find a ban compelling.
Anything that prolongs the game to the degree of "every single spell in the game gets an interactive trigger now" should not be allowed. Fuck you if you bought that card, I hope you feel like you wasted the money since you clearly enjoy wasting other people's time.
@@donstrader i do, and it is in fact in my binder lol. The way my pod plays is pretty casual so I never really had a desire to use it, now that could possibly change if I was playing higher power levels at an lgs or something, but I just don't feel the need to with my friends.
In my playgroup "Rhystic Study" draws no cards. It just taxes. I remember when a new guy dropped a mana crypt and rhystic study turn one and got realy annoyed, because he expected to draw cards. But he didn't.
i think that we should have another ban list for actual power, i find myself very often not including high power cards like rhystic, dockside, smothering tide, etc, i find them so boring and i think that we should have some form of power regulation
Discussions like these are solved with Rule Zero. The "problem" with Rhystic Study isn't even the card, but the fact that people don't play around it. As long as you communicate as a table that you need to pay the one until you hit removal, RS is a dead card. Unlike other cards on the banlist, RS doesn't provide a guaranteed broken game-state or even any card advantage. Also, MTG is a TCG. By the nature of their design, there will always be "optimal" cards. Esper Sentinel and Mystic Remora also show a ton of play. If we were to ban every card that sees play "in every deck", then the basic suite of mana rocks would be banned which would lead to an even larger ramp disparity between non-green colors and green. It's kind of wild to me that so many people are so ban-happy when the point of Commander is a social format that lets you play the cards you really like. No one is playing Rhystic Study in other formats. Players that like RS will have nowhere to play it if banned. Players judt need to have Rule Zero conversations.
Hell I've been playing commander for a few years now. Played a high power game where for 3 entire turn cycles rhystic study may as well have been sphere of Resistance. Hell I've had whole games where Rhystic study drew maybe a card. The issue with rhystic is when people get greedy and don't or can't play around it. A lot of my decks by casual standards have a very low curve so i have an easier time playing around it than the dragon deck I'm facing might.
Rule 0 is itself a problem, built to be abused like any "system" that relies solely on self-enforcement/ the naive belief that people will always be open and honest in their intentions and punished if not so
Yuriko (cEDH) decks don't include Rhystic about half the time but that's a special case where the way that deck is built, 3 mana is a bit too expensive when you just need to be enabling Yuriko as much as possible.
I've seen Dockside make 3-5 treasures on average in a "casual" game. I've seen Rhystic Study draw at least 5-10 cards on average in a "casual" game. you tell me what sounds worse.
The mana, typically in casual games people have higher average mana curves. Being able to play 2-3 extra things, let alone if one of those things copies/flickers or otherwise loops dockside, is typically stronger than a.player drawing a bunch of cards they probably won't cast at once.
I'd still say dockside. In casual especially in the early and mid game your bottleneck isn't cards it's having the mana to play them. And being able to play a 6 drop 3 turns early if everyone else went land signet on turn 2 and you went dockside is really strong
Dockside is far worse it’s not even close. 1. Just pay the 1 (just treat it as a stax piece where you HAVE to pay the 1) 2. Run removal Dockside HAS to be counterspelled so if you aren’t playing blue you just lose.
@ievyer they both have their situations where it's better as both are capable of generating massive amounts of resources. But dockside won't be miracle topdeck post Farewell if you got nothing going on. At least most of the time. Rhystic can get you a ton of card advantage if people won't or can't pay. Can't pay being the most common reason it's insane in cedh
One is a cracked in half ritual, that needs stuff already going on on the board, he other is a huge tempo boost for the player playing it at the floor, and an ridiculous baby mode card advantage machine that wins you the game on its own. Drawing loads of cards and seeing more of your deck is what wins you the game, and its heaps more powerful than ramp. Both of them together though ... jfc gg
Claiming Rhystic Study is more powerful than Yawgmoths Bargain is absurd in my opinion. Your opponents can control whether or not to let you draw cards with Rhystic Study. It's like comparing thoughtseize to an effect that lets your opponents choose what they discard. Yes, it does slow the game down, but nowhere near what Sensei's top did in modern and legacy. If you find it that troublesome, may I suggest proposing to have it banned in your playgroup, because in my playgroup it really is not that problematic, since we usually just pay the 1, and are able to look past the wurmcoil engine when assessing who is the threat.
Or a reprint with a different effect, maybe with just creature spells to mirror esper sentinel being every non creature, or just the first card each turn
"Yeah I'd be playing whack-a-mole with the ban hammer. I've been playing commander for 12 years now and when I was younger I had almost a dozen copies of cyclonic rift and rhystic study cause I put them in every blue deck. Same with necropotence. I also had plenty of fun with dockside when he came out and smothering tithe when it came out. But I would ban every one of them. I would even ban Sol ring. The thing all these cards have in common is that they go in every single deck irrespective of the commander or the strategy. These cards that just win games on their own, are boring, repetitive, uninteresting, swingy and ultimately unfun." I just made this comment on a video of yours from two weeks ago but i thought it was more relevant here
Yawgmoth's Bargain is just way more powerful than Rhystic Study. Paying three mana for potentially 10+ cards over a few turns to grind out enough advantage to win is not on the same level as paying six mana to draw up to 39 cards immediately and win the same turn.
Man, idk who you play with but maybe play with some different players. Just have a conversation with people if you don’t want to play with certain cards. I have four decks with blue in them and play Rhystic in 1 of them. I don’t think they should ban anything. I think people should be more open and honest about what they want to play and what experience they want to get out of the games.
I would really like to know what Therese Neilson said that was so bad. I've searched, and could never find anything other than people saying "it was bad". I'm inclined to believe the whole situation was astroturfed.
Because those actually win games and do not just "spin the wheels". They do not really waste the most precious resource: Lifetime. Same reason Paradox Engine got banned if i remember correctly. Oracle wins or does basically nothing and Breach is either a win or a oneshot recursion like Yawgmoth's Will.
Because the casual players don't play Thoracle and underworld breach cedh lines. The ban list isn't for cedh. Honestly I'm shocked cedh doesn't have its own ban list because even if it's just commander at its strongest. The way the meta of the format is dominated by Thoracle and breach strategies sort of makes its desire to be a competitive format odd
@@jmanwild87honestly it's funny because cedh players asked flash to be banned because of flash hulk lines but apparently consultation thoracle is okay
It's really good in cEDH because players are ultra greedy and will try to go over the top of the RS player. It's less good in casual where things can slow down and people should hopefully be running removal or interaction for enchantments like this. But because it generates so many game actions in EDH, people are just very aware of it. People just gotta slow down a touch and not be super greedy.
I think it’s kind of silly to call for a ban. Card is really good but there’s LOTS of really good cards. It’s 1 of 99. There will probably be at least half of the games it’s never played unless the game goes really long 🤷🏻♂️
nonsensical. every card you aren’t tutoring as part of a combo is “one of 99” and won’t be seen every game. the games where rhystic study does get drawn and played are worse for it, that’s the relevant metric.
You sound like someone who has lost one too many times to a player who plays Rhystic Study. The whole video comes off less as a discussion piece and more like a salt video. You said it checks every reason that the RC bans cards, then later said well actually not these reason, but later than that still kept saying it gets checked by every reason. Also, RS being stronger than Dockside or Crypt!? Now I KNOW this is a bad faith take. Crypt lets you play turns ahead of your opponents. Dockside can give you game winning turns for two mana, even in casual games (which nobody should be playing Dockside at a casual table to begin with). Like, Study isn't this monster card you're trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it's not a strong card. It's very strong. You're definitely overselling it though. Quick question: do you or your playgroups not run interaction? I don't think bouncing effects, counter magic, and Naturalize type effects are very niche. It's stuff your deck should be running in the first place. Pay the 1! And then Assassin's Trophy it! Naturalize it. Feed the Swarm it. Disenchant it. Blue has no shortage of effects that bounce target permanent or counter target spell. If you're playing mono red, then I can empathize a little. Outside of Red E Blast, Pyroblast, and Tibalt's Trickery, mono red doesn't get a lot of answers to enchantments. Player removal works tho ;) Look, I get if you don't like the card, but don't try to make it out like it defines the meta of EVERY table. Also, this is why converstaions between players need to happen more. It's one thing if a player plays Study while the other three are playing precons, that's a problem player. That's not Rhystic Study's fault. If everyone is playing a deck of relatively similar levels, it's not the Rhystic Study's fault if players aren't paying the 1 or don't run interaction. Also also, how does drawing 15 cards add one minute per card to the game? Drawing 15 cards only *adds* that much time to the game is if that player is new to that deck or just doesn't know what they're doing. I'm just hoping that comment was exageration/hyperbole.
I played a pretty high power commander game where a will scion of peace deck played rhystic study. Despite being there from turn 3 it didn't draw cards until turn 6 and Despite drawing a load of cards off of it. The will player couldn't keep his commander on board leaving a bunch of high cost cards stranded in his hand. He lost that game because he was facing 2 grixis decks (myself and another player) that just countered his wincons. Card advantage does not matter if you're unable to use the cards
There’s a great reasons to not play Rhystic Study 1.) It’s a known power-card, your threat level will increase once played, and asking the tax will constantly bring you into focus which is terrible for blue control players in a pod. 2.) Doesn’t fit the theme of the deck, blue likes to play spell slinger decks. Sure it’d give you more spells, but I’d rather high tide and mindspring. 3.) It’s not fun to play with for the table.
Just the fact that "Terese Neilsen art" is being brought up at all immediately invalidates any opinion that follows. Honestly, if they split the format, they should leave EDH alone and separate the casual players into their own little kiddie pool.
Ive held this stance for the past couple years the Rhystic is the most bannable card by a country mile(after Mind Goblin tbh). Whether it *should* be banned is a different question for me, but the issues the card has at all levels of play are very real. I do think that wotc has likely figured out the card is a problem so a real part of me would like to see how they balance future card design/answers around it. I think wizard's can design themselves out of it being the terror that it is but that would have to have some targeted designs.
same problem with smothering tithe, no one pays 2, thats obscene ramp, of course its a "white card" but its so tiering for every one with the trigger and power of this card. trouble in pairs is much better designed. The One ring is also a card i just dont want to see, just flicker it and your immortal if they cannot win with other strategys.
Everyone they need to ban basic lands, if you look mountains are in 91% of the decks it’s can be played in. Must be so powerful if it’s in that high of a percentage
@@EnderPryde surprising how so? I never said cedh. That’s surprising you assumed I meant cedh. I simply looked up the card called “Mountain” on edhrec, not cedhrec and stated the stats on that page, just like the video creator did. Rekt
@@jordanspier234 because if it isn't seeing play in CEDH, "being in X% of decks" is a meaningless statistic. For example, Mana Crypt is in only 11% of decks in non-cEDH, but is in like 95% of cEDH decks. The latter is generally a better indicator of power level than the former.
Ok I don’t like that Sensei’s top comparison because at the same time that goes for any tax effect. Sometimes people have to be reminded of a Thalia on the battlefield and while the difference is Rhystic is permissive and Thalia is not, it really isn’t much different. Sensei’s Top is an activated ability that you can do at any point where Rhystic is a bit more predictable and quicker to resolve. Sensei’s requires you to look at 3 cards and rearrange them, while Rhystic asks a yes or no and draws a card. If you are not a player who doesn’t mind playing with it then ask people to play decks without it or swap it out. No one is making you play against it in casual commander. I don’t get the argument for “you cannot play it casually”. Not all cards are designed for casual play and that is by no means a reason for a ban.
While I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to a Rhystic Study ban, I feel like there are quite a few cards that need to go before it. Dockside is the number one ban I want to see (2 mana you win the game), but there are a few others, mainly Jeweled Lotus, the commander free spells, and Thassa’s Oracle. I’d also like to see Smothering Tithe gone but that one probably isn’t strong enough to justify it, I just hate it xD.
Jesus i just must have landed in competitive hell or something i have never seen it draw more than 2 cards before ether its removed or the player is removed o.o
RS is a stax card and you should treat it like one when facing it. If we're considering banning RS, we should consider banning Smokestack, Back to basics, etc... Dockside is a much bigger problem imo because it's so easy to combo with it, and even with no combo the mana acceleration is absurd, which itself could be corrected by Wizards updating Treasures to have "this token enters the battlefield tapped".
I love playing with and around powerful and unique effects, I'd always want my opponents to play the cards they want and limiting card options seems bad to me. Commander has always been rather cracked as a format and if you want to diversify the format by pulling staples that's fine, but kinda lame to me. With rhystic it can/will speed up the game if people are just going to not pay. If the opponents dont note paying 1 whenever they cast a spell just shortcut and draw the card. Then again I'd be fine with the og mox and timevault being legal so maybe im the wrong person to signpost bans since that vaguely covers whatever rule 0 stuff.
I'm a CEDH player. Ban dockside, thoracle, and bowmasters for CEDH. It won't hurt casual players but it'll help make the metagame less stale for tournaments. Rhystic study is a amazing card should it be banned? In cedh I think after the 3 I want banned are banned we should think of banning rhystic.
@@tristenbezayiff571 weird how like 95+% of the cards in the history of the game are designed for players like me and *not* for min/maxing try hards, and 99% the cards that get banned are banned because they're abused by min/maxing try hards
@@andrewkelly1337 there not ussaly banned for being good. either they are so good whole formats devolve into just them or they are so oppressive they shut down decks entirely. rhystic is good when your oppenents dont run removal, dont pay the one, or dont have a counter spell. hell the logic in the vid also include removing things like blood moon, and winter orb way before rhystic.
People will hunt down these things even more. the more rare and forbidden something is, the more appealing it is. So they don't want specific art in their game and somehow punish the artist but in the end, they bring even more attention to it. I'd like to see Rhystic banned nevertheless.
the card is super busted, but honestly how is it so bad it should be banned? in most games i see it, i draw more cards with like guardian project, great henge and stuff due to people having enough mana to pay for it start banning fast mana, then ban stuff that gets REALLY broken due to that. blue was supposed to have the best carddraw but its not so much infront of green and way behind black lol
Rhystic fraws A LOT against combo and spell-slinger decks, and if they are casting a lot, you're probably loosing. Against average decks, it gives you 3-4 cards per rotation. It is a lot, but not unbeatable. But more often, its just annoying. And such tax effects always will be. So no, i don't think Rhystic study should be banned. Dockside maybe should, but what definitely needs to be banned is oracle of thassa. That wincon is just dumb, as there's too many ways to empty your deck, and not enough ways to stop it.
My playgroup is awesomely toxic if one of us starts crying we immediately target that person out of the game we shrug and go you know the rule it's hilarious and it teaches not to be douchey about the GAME we are all here to enjoy. One thing that is important though is easily grabbing a different deck after stomping us out with something mean. We all catch wins very consistently if it's only a couple games sometimes someone will sweep the night but other nights is other people I'd say it's pretty healthy at my table. Tournaments could stipulate top rs or dse bans specifically if they want to. I'd support that over bans....
My shit opinion, and yes, nobody ask for. Rhystic Study is NOT a card draw enchantment, it's more likely a stax, so if you draw a lot of cards, your opponents are playing wrong. The card needs to be ban? Maybe, but not now. For example, Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extorsionist is far more concerning at this moment.
@@andrewkelly1337 perceptions are very key idk about you but not long ago the concept of magic itself would have been a point of contention of equal or greater consequence
@@agrocreepers7710 bro your empty rhetoric doesn't affect me. In fact your willingness to devolve into "well everything is relative" word salad has me 100% convinced you're only upset about people banning the racist card.
Rhystic study is incredibly strong but it should not be banned. The saying don't feed the fish with Mystic Remora applies to study as well. Slowing down the game can be mitigated by your opponents volunteering the information before you ask. There's plenty of cards that should go in every deck of X color should they also be banned. Rhystic study is way weaker than bargain because RS doesn't guarantee that you're drawing a bunch of cards. Yawgmoth's bargain is always going to draw you a bunch of cards because even if you play it and someone Disenchants it right away you can still draw 20 cards. With study you can have someone disenchant it. Pay 1 and Rhystic study did nothingbut be a tax effect on one spell. The floor is so low if your opponents are playing right. Not to mention There's plenty of cases where the mountain of card advantage doesn't matter because the cards are just rotting in the opponent's hand. Hard to interact with? Every player sans mono red has access to in color removal for it and colorless options. Insurmountable resource advantage is only if people don't pay and even then it can be surmounted if the table puts aside their grievances to handle the study player if they can't always pay. Required to play? I have plenty of blue decks with so many other sources of card advantage that i don't feel like i need it Constant mists should be banned? Non combat wincons are plentiful and you can just force the constant mists player to use it until they can't
Study is fine. If it's not in your playgroup it sounds like a playgroup problem and they shouldn't be banning things because certain playgroups don't play responsibly.
People are crazy for thinking this card needs banning, but I play in high power with people that treat rhystic as a stack piece. Always pay the 1 unless doing so would prevent you winning the game or preventing an opponents win. It demands removal. Get good bros
Card banning is more annoying the more people ask for things to be banned. Why not ban any stax effects, slows the game down, causes resource imbalances, etc. let people play the way they want to play. Tired of seeing a card played? Removal and counterspells are a thing.
"Just play removal and counterspells" This is short-sighted logic for Rhystic Study in particular. It runs headlong into issues of tempo loss in 4 player games being worse than in 2 player: If I cast Naturalize to destroy the Tutor (and paid the 1 to prevent the card draw) that means I've lost 3 mana for this round on the table, the person who played the Tutor lost 3 mana on the round playing the Tutor, but the other two players didn't lose any mana on the round, and now have a tempo advantage because of it - I'm actively helping someone else win, rather than advancing my own victory. So it's typically just better to not let it hit the board at all, or to just not pay for directed removal and instead do board sweeps. *But* I also glossed over how Mystic Tutor is itself Blue, so it's going to have its own counterspell package to support it, and force more spells on the stack via counterspell wars, increasing the likelyhood of getting it to draw you cards. Mystic Remora creates a mexican standoff for the other players at the table, while reaping most of the rewards.
@@EnderPryde how is it short-sighted? If you have removal and paid the one like you said you lost 3 mana sure, which means they paid 3 mana to draw no cards right? Wouldn’t it be more fair if someone paid 3 mana for a card draw to at least give them 2 cards before removing it? Also what is blue known for besides counter-spells and mill? That’s right card draw. This format isn’t a tournament sanctioned format. Banning is overbearing cause in any play group you guys can collectively state which cards you guys don’t want to be played. If you’re someone playing competitively or like to play commander night at an LGS how is someone putting themselves in a better spot to win hurting the game? Do you want a game to take 2-3 hours?
@@jordanspier234because, as elaborated on, it's a neg-3 on mana to go 1 for 1. And while there are no wotc sanctioned tournaments, there *are* cedh tournaments held at official events - and you can't just rule zero a card away you don't like at those sorts of events
I'm not quite convinced it "needs" to be banned, but from a cursory glance, it shows up in like 98% of cEDH blue decks. That in-and-of itself is not an issue, plenty of non-problematic cards see higher usage in cEDH. Mystic Remora, Force of Will, and Cyclonic Rift as just three examples in Blue. *But* I think being a staple in cEDH is a reasonable first-pass litmus test for whether it's healthy for the format - Griselbrand is banned from EDH for similar "there's no reason not to run it in decks it's legal in". So the next question becomes if the card is game-centralizing when played, rather than just a good card. And I'm... not quite sure myself. Repeated card draw that depends on opponents actions is a bit hard to quantify, but if you're spending 3 mana and over the course of the game it's generating hundreds of mana in value for you (or dozens of card draws), I think that starts to tip into "overly centralizing" Even in its worst case, it is typically a 3 mana cantrip that absorbs critical removal in cEDH: Rhystic Study comes down, someone tries to destroy it, counterspell-war ensues, Rhystic Study player draws cards to replace their lost card advantage from counterspells because one or more of the players failed to pay the tax during the war.
rhystic says "when an opponent casts a spell draw a card" or "opponents spells cost 1 more to cast" both are too good for 3 mana. card is boring to play with and against. its a 3 mana enter the infinite. in the same way smothering tithe and dockside are 4 and 2 mana omniscience respectively. ONLY people who play these cards defend them.
We shouldn't ban cards that are intellegent includes. It is ubiquitous, which is problematic, but that is only because people don't destroy it. Blow it up! It doesn't have hexproof. It dies to like a 1000 plus spells. If it is that dangerous, isn't it worthy of removal? Don't ban cards because players are too stupid to remove it! Further, drawing cards doesn't always translate to wins. Often yes. But it is not even a win con in and of itself. People complain about the format yet refuse to build intellegent decks that interact with other decks. You know what else slows down game play? Interaction. Rhystic study forces interaction. Want something to ban? Drannith Magistrate. Wanna make people stop playing edh? Play a game where drannith sits there for 5 turns and the other players cannot access their commanders, the entire point of the format!
Uuummmm, I didn’t trade and buy certain cards for them to be banned later on. Ban one ring, ban dockside, ban black market, ban smothering tithe. I JUST started upping the power levels of my decks to match my play groups.
*talks about rhystic study clogging the game* >me looking at my spellslinger deck "......" yeah clogging the game is what it is doing. just let the controller before hand you aint paying for it-then deck them by playing buyback cards.
There are two arguments that are false in this discussion : 1) you have to play it. You don't. You can build your deck the way you want it. Playing without sol ring for a year now and there is no downside for doing so. If those people think like "if other people may run it, I have to be as toxic as they are and be a normy" I think that the card is not the problem. 2) The card is too powerful. There is an 3 mana blue aoe that asks people to sacrifice a permanent for each creature they control if they don't pay 1 (can't remember the name) and it's not played at all. Rhystic asks the same type of thing but rather than you going down a resource, you give one to your opponent. People are not playing around it correctly and then crying about it. Again, not a card problem. The card has problems, don't get me wrong, the fact that it's not a positive addition to any game you'll play is something to consider, but let's not use points that are relying on people not playing the game using all their options.
Banning a card because of the art is fucking stupid. And the problem with Rhystic is because people are idiots----just pay the damn 1. You hate Rhystic? Pay the damn 1.
You like Rhystic? Go play a fucking single player game so you can get your sick kicks wasting a bot's time instead of that or your fellow human being. So instead of being a dumbass, stop hating the game and liking bad cards that oppose the spirit of it.
Banning good cards because they are good, is bad for the format. Rhystic study has a work around. People just dont want pay the 1. If people were responsible gamers RS would just be sphere of resistance for 1 more mana that only hits opponents, and then RS wouldnt see nearly as much play. But then commander players would cry anyways because tax effects make casual players angry because they hate being interacted with. Lets ban every tax, stax, hatebearer, and any card that isnt battlecruiser meta friendly! /s RS is fine, if it gets banned then i feel its the rules committee bending to cry baby commander players. Also the argument that "every deck should play x card, so ban x card" is a bad argument. For so many reasons. I can easily use that argument to ban so many cards. All 2 MV or less mana rocks, all the good 2 mv green ramp, all the best removal spells, all tutors, all good generic value cards, etc. and then if you ban those cards, different cards would fill the slots that the current staples fill. Oh and taking up time is a reason to ban cards? We should ban every card that searches the library. Cuz that take up way more time! Ban hard to interact with cards? Lets ban all sorceries and instants because the stack is hard to interact with. Rule 0 solves any issues with rhystic study. My play group has no issues with it. Honestly it get removed or people pay the 1. Ive had so many games where the person playing it draws only a couple of cards. RS isnt a problem in commander, commander players being bad is a problem for commander Good video, Despite the fact that i disagree with basically every point brought up. I like hearing opinions different than mine.
Only shit players would complain about rhystic study. Also learn to maintain your own banlist with your friends. Thats the whole point of commander. Like, it straight up is just a skill issue if you have a problem with it.
1) Saying that Rhystic Study is even comparable in power Yawgmoth's Bargain, let alone claiming it's better, makes anything you have to say on this topic come across as just pointless complaining. That is such an outlandish claim that it's hard to take anything you have to say seriously. 2) I don't think a card should be banned because people don't play around them correctly. If everyone just pays the 1 then Rhystic Study is not an issues, and only really powerful in higher level cEDH games. You would never suggest a ban on Sphere of Resistance or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but Rhystic Study is often just a one-sided version of those cards if people just play around it correctly, which can be done very easily. It's a huge problem if people just ignore it, but that's true of so many cards that if that's a criteria for banning you will end up banning half of the format.
Lets not take the original too serious. If the format was created today the list would look a lot different. Rhystic study is just a Thalia for all spells. It’s a great card for people to learn about the difference between tempo en mana advantage. Not every card should be beginner / Timmy friendly. Commander is a inherent broken format and pretending to ban 1 card to fix it is hilarious. Further if you want to start banning cards to fix the format.
I stopped listening the moment he said it draws more cards than any blue. Consecrated sphinx makes rhystic study look like a poor joke. Rhysic is purely a skill check. When it hits the table pretend it says "your spells cost 1 more" like any other stax piece that's not even remotely bannable and it does nothing. Bad players make rhystic good.
I think your argument sounds bias. That being said, it should probably be banned because of the constant trigger nagging, which slows down the game. I think players should run enchantment removal. Players should just interact with it. Adapt and overcome.
stop banning things from our fucking game. if we dont like someone using a stupid card at the table, WE can decide not to play with them, or make them grab another deck
I have no issue with rhystic study. Your point about it slowing the game is mute. If drawing cards makes people more likely to win the game, then wouldn't it actually speed up the game? There are much worse cards like winter orb, and anything that does the same type of thing. Anything that makes you pay to attack. You're basically arguing for any card played in control decks to be banned. Yea, i hate these and definitely agree with winter ord like effects needing to be banned, but nothing else is really that serious. Infinite card combos and swords also inhibit player expression and provide too much advantage. There's so much in this format that can qualify for any number of the reasons you stated.
Also "do you pay the one" is a sentence that takes less than a second to say. If they spend forever thinking if they want to or not, that is a personal problem for them.
I would be surprised if the RC does anything. I think at this point all they do is vaguely gesture to rule 0. They won't ban a card especially one with such high reprint equity for wotc as rhystic studies.
Every time there is a question in the title the answer is: No. "She said some things that were not good and I disagree with the things that she said, I think, I don't know the full details..." Wow, cool worthless received opinion you've got there bro. You don't even know the vague details, she's persona non grata because of... drum roll... vaguely right wing and conspiracy theory tweets she liked on the blue bird app. Because people living in coastal bubbles cannot stand ideological nonconformity, they banished a beloved and very talented lesbian artist because she holds thoughts in her head that roughly half the country hold. "It's more powerful than Ancestral Recall" No, it absolutely is not. "It's better than Yawgmoth's Bargain" No, it absolutely is not. "I drew more than 15 cards off of Rhystic Study" Then your playgroup is a bunch of jokers. Most recent game night, player resolved a Rhystic Study turn 3, drew exactly zero cards off of it, in play the entire game until he lost, to me. "Every blue deck should be running Rhystic Study" I have ten decks with blue in them and I run way more Mana Crypts than Rhystic Studys. We need to be taking cards off of the ban list, not adding more cards to it. I don't want this game warped around those who are the least skilled at it. If you're not threat assessing based on handsize and/or not running a significant amount of spot removal you deserve to lose. Unironically git gud, and force your playgroup to also git gud.
Hell I've had games where a player drew 15+ cards off of rhystic and lost because everyone else was working to keep the card advantage as irrelevant as possible.
You want slow games ban card draw that makes sense. It just annoys me that my cards I love and enjoy get dictated by people who don't know what my playgroup is like. We make it work. We play high-power decks catch a win and put it away and play something mid or even low power jank. I enjoy all of the above of course there's occasional games where it's annoying and I just want to try some new jank or a pre con and somebody steamrolls but we just shuffle up and that person plays something less powerful. Bans really miss me off tbh I can't think of a better way to kick all your new players in the balls right after they buy rs and dse but it's not my company am I right? Smh
If people don't pay the 1 they're playing wrong. If all it said was "opponents spells cost 1 more" would that be insane? If you said yes, then you should want to ban "Grand Arbiter Augustin IV" too, same thing + cost reduction + in the command zone. Minor stax effects like these HAVE A PLACE in commander, ANY of the cost increased cost effects slow people down. Its a strategy. If no one at your table pays the one, they should be shamed and attacked as if they played sol ring. Rhystic Study is a card that shouldn't be played at casual tables, in the same way I think Bloodmoon, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV shouldn't be played at casual tables. This doesn't mean these should be banned, because they are generlaly rule 0'ed. They have a stigma to them, 'dont use these cards becasue they are too strong/too annoying for casual games'. Rhystic study should be in this list too, but it shouldn't be removed, because more experience tables, the card is FAR less good, because almost everyone pays the 1. Its more like 3 mana draw 3, or eat a removal or something. I get theres the FEELING of card to consider too. I HATE, vorinclex voice of hunger. . with a PASSION. That card makes me upset like no other--I'm never going to call for a ban. I might tell someone at a low power table, maybe don't bring that deck or maybe don't include that card for this casual experince, because I'm not bringing a deck packed to the gills with counterspells to deal with it. . . that doesnt' mean I want it gone from every level of play. Its fun to have cards that are powerful, and sometimes its fun to hate things. Anyway, don't ban things you find annoying, ban things that are genuinely busted like channel or time walk or time vault, and unban the rest or you're a coward.
Augustin is more fragile for being a creature, cost more, available in less decks because of color, not even comparable. Even in this version that rhystic study draws no cards, would still be casually played in 99 of more decks and feel awful to play against. The commitment of shoving a rhystic study into a deck is not the same as an expensive creature such as Vorinclex. Vorinclex may ruin the game( I also hate it), but doesn't feel so 'free' and 'easy'. You lose little to no tempo if someone spends a removal on it. Also, for how easily threats are percieved, rhystic study tends to end up in tables it doens't belong way more often.
If you like cards like Rhystic Study, you dont even like the game you just like frustrating other people. And people like that only make pvp games worse, they should be shunned.
I don't understand the qualms with the art on Invoke Prejudice. The art literally depicts the title of the card. The artist captured a picture of prejudice -- in short, he did his job. And not only did he do his job, he did his job so well that his art has been crucified. Where have I seen this story before?
The bigger problem, with that one in particular, is that artist creates art like that to support his particular ideology. This isn't a case of artist asked to make something distasteful, it's artist who makes distasteful art being hired to represent his distasteful views.
@@EnderPryde I'm not interested in the artist -- I'm interested in the art. Bill Cosby is a disgusting human. As a comedian though, he is one of the GOATs. He made me laugh growing up, and he did a lot of good paving the way for black talent on television. Talent is talent regardless of its creator's downfalls.
Wild how you think this card is ban worthy. I don’t run it much, but I’d never call something like this ban worthy. Most of the time when it’s played, everyone I’m playing with pays the 1, and the card only really goes nuts in bad matchups like storm. I think dockside is a lame ass card, but ban worthy? Wild
It honestly doesn't matter if a card meets every criterion for banning that the rules committee put out itself because they're not interested in being consistent or performing the function they were created for
I don't believe it should be banned, although I do wish it costed like triple blue so it was less splashable. Regardless, it's a powerful card that gives the choice to the other players at the table and it's always their fault when it performs well. If everyone just treated it like a sphere of resistance it would be fine. The real problem is that Hullbreacher is banned, and we need more card draw denial.
I always do my best to pay the 1. But there is always a player who lets them do what ever they want.
“Creates a resource imbalance” By that logic Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and Dockside should be banned. The longer I play commander the more I find myself not using blatantly powerful cards. They lack flavor and are extremely boring. Yeah I could jam Feast and Famine into every deck but there’s no flavor there, it’s just power. Deckbuilding is an art and the most fun and interesting games have decks where you know someone put effort into keeping it flavorful. But that’s just my opinion
All resoureces are not created equal. Cards vs treasures is apples and oranges, with acyual game pieces being much more valuable than treasures
Card draw and mana aren’t an equal exchange. Card draw is multitudes better than a one use mana rock token.
Honestly, im tired of playing against rhystic study. Smothering tithe too, 1 card infinite combos are too much.
Staples are intrinsic to the game.
Those cards should be banned. And there are people with opposite ideals. Build to win and show you are better, in turn, having fun.
In my pod, we have a saying that “sometimes, you cast a card that says, in more words than not, *I win the game,*” the obvious examples are things like Moonshaker and Thunderhoof, torment of hailfire, yes, but those are expensive and require setup, but what sucks about cards like Rhystic, Dockside, even imo the fast mana artifacts, is its not immediately “I win the game” but so many times it feels like a person had that turn 3 rhystic and we just kinda go “okay, i dont even have the mana/card draw to get to/ removal to deal with this, you win, lets shuffle up and play again” its the bane of every new player when their opponent turn land -> sol rings -> arcane signets, but that requires 3 cards out of your deck to effectively “draw the nutz” (and gets significantly easier with the other fast mana rocks) meanwhile rhystic study is a 1 card “i drew the nutz” and if there are situations where if 1/99 someone has a chance to say “i win” in those early turns, to me now the time cost is not even in the “do you pay the one” as a cost on time, its a cost on time of re-shuffling up and going “i want to play a different game where this doesnt happen”
>Constant mists should be banned
Of... all the cards... you pick that one
If you see someone constant mists do you and the whole table not turn and force them to burn it every single combat? Maybe my playgroup over compensates from maze of ith trauma
he lost to it once and his ass clearly hasn't healed if he's asking for that to be banned.
I have 2 real copies of rhystic. It took me years to finally get these copies. I would like to keep playing with the card tbh.
Rhystic study... pay the one, and run enchantment removal. The card isnt even actually good if you play around it.
The slowing the game down as an argument to ban something isn't a very compelling argument to ban cards, and using examples of bans in constructed formats with timed 50 minute rounds isn't a direct comparison.
I could tell you why I think it’s compelling.
I think that there is a certain amount of time I want to spend in a game, and certainly there is only a certain amount of time I’m willing to wait on other decks.
I posit It only takes some critical mass of these time consuming cards to make a game too long to tolerate.
I think it’s very reasonable to say that at some point a single card is taking too much time at the table. Like theoretically if playing a single card added 20 minutes to a game I would ban that card immediately.
Idk how much time cards like rhystic study take but something like scramble verse I think would be in the running for a ban.
@@TheDestroya88 I'd wager having to read and/or explain the text on the majority of cards printed in the last 5 years adds more time to a game than Rhystic Study.
And while I understand not wanting to play a single game all day, there's a difference in argument between only being allocated 50 minutes to play a best 2 out of 3 round by an official, and players' personal ideas of what makes a game too long. Because of how different that threshold is going to be from person to person, having a card be banned for that reason isn't too compelling. Especially since rule 0 already exists to address more personal concerns for your individual pod.
@@Zachlareef it seems like we are approaching the ban list from a couple different angles.
I understand how personal opinions may differ on what is too long and that rule 0 would cover this so to you it makes it uncompelling, but I’m not talking about personal pods I’m speaking in the context of pickup games of edh and how the ban list affects those pickup games.
I thought the purpose of the ban list in edh is to signpost what kind of stuff is discouraged so I think that a ban based off time constraints would fit on the ban list very nicely. Cause of how I think that sends a strong message I find a ban compelling.
Anything that prolongs the game to the degree of "every single spell in the game gets an interactive trigger now" should not be allowed. Fuck you if you bought that card, I hope you feel like you wasted the money since you clearly enjoy wasting other people's time.
Guess I'm a fake blue player, I never put RS in my decks, I just find it boring.
do you have one though? If you just suddenly had one in your binder would it just stay in there or would you put it in one of your blue decks?
@@donstrader i do, and it is in fact in my binder lol. The way my pod plays is pretty casual so I never really had a desire to use it, now that could possibly change if I was playing higher power levels at an lgs or something, but I just don't feel the need to with my friends.
me too, I'm a dimir player and I can't barely play anything outside of blue decks and still hate rhystic study...
Most people are like you bro, these guys are just salty imo
Drawing cards is boring to you?!?!?
In my playgroup "Rhystic Study" draws no cards. It just taxes.
I remember when a new guy dropped a mana crypt and rhystic study turn one and got realy annoyed, because he expected to draw cards. But he didn't.
i think that we should have another ban list for actual power, i find myself very often not including high power cards like rhystic, dockside, smothering tide, etc, i find them so boring and i think that we should have some form of power regulation
It'd simplify rule 0 conversations if cards were categorized by power
Discussions like these are solved with Rule Zero. The "problem" with Rhystic Study isn't even the card, but the fact that people don't play around it. As long as you communicate as a table that you need to pay the one until you hit removal, RS is a dead card. Unlike other cards on the banlist, RS doesn't provide a guaranteed broken game-state or even any card advantage. Also, MTG is a TCG. By the nature of their design, there will always be "optimal" cards. Esper Sentinel and Mystic Remora also show a ton of play. If we were to ban every card that sees play "in every deck", then the basic suite of mana rocks would be banned which would lead to an even larger ramp disparity between non-green colors and green. It's kind of wild to me that so many people are so ban-happy when the point of Commander is a social format that lets you play the cards you really like. No one is playing Rhystic Study in other formats. Players that like RS will have nowhere to play it if banned. Players judt need to have Rule Zero conversations.
Hell I've been playing commander for a few years now. Played a high power game where for 3 entire turn cycles rhystic study may as well have been sphere of Resistance. Hell I've had whole games where Rhystic study drew maybe a card. The issue with rhystic is when people get greedy and don't or can't play around it. A lot of my decks by casual standards have a very low curve so i have an easier time playing around it than the dragon deck I'm facing might.
Rule 0 is itself a problem, built to be abused like any "system" that relies solely on self-enforcement/ the naive belief that people will always be open and honest in their intentions and punished if not so
"do you pay the 1" is a trigger phrase for me.
Generally speaking i always phrase it as "Tell me if you're paying." And it goes a lot faster if people are studious
Yuriko (cEDH) decks don't include Rhystic about half the time but that's a special case where the way that deck is built, 3 mana is a bit too expensive when you just need to be enabling Yuriko as much as possible.
They can pretend that they have discussions all the time. It doesn't matter if they never actually ban anything.
Good.
I’m fascinated by what they’ve spent the last decade doing.
It insists upon itself, Lois.
I've seen Dockside make 3-5 treasures on average in a "casual" game. I've seen Rhystic Study draw at least 5-10 cards on average in a "casual" game. you tell me what sounds worse.
The mana, typically in casual games people have higher average mana curves. Being able to play 2-3 extra things, let alone if one of those things copies/flickers or otherwise loops dockside, is typically stronger than a.player drawing a bunch of cards they probably won't cast at once.
I'd still say dockside. In casual especially in the early and mid game your bottleneck isn't cards it's having the mana to play them. And being able to play a 6 drop 3 turns early if everyone else went land signet on turn 2 and you went dockside is really strong
Dockside is far worse it’s not even close.
1. Just pay the 1 (just treat it as a stax piece where you HAVE to pay the 1)
2. Run removal
Dockside HAS to be counterspelled so if you aren’t playing blue you just lose.
@ievyer they both have their situations where it's better as both are capable of generating massive amounts of resources. But dockside won't be miracle topdeck post Farewell if you got nothing going on. At least most of the time. Rhystic can get you a ton of card advantage if people won't or can't pay. Can't pay being the most common reason it's insane in cedh
One is a cracked in half ritual, that needs stuff already going on on the board, he other is a huge tempo boost for the player playing it at the floor, and an ridiculous baby mode card advantage machine that wins you the game on its own. Drawing loads of cards and seeing more of your deck is what wins you the game, and its heaps more powerful than ramp.
Both of them together though ... jfc gg
If study is being considered then wouldn't smothering tithe be considered.
This is why i observe a personal banlist..the games were so stale with evryone running the same auto includes.
Claiming Rhystic Study is more powerful than Yawgmoths Bargain is absurd in my opinion. Your opponents can control whether or not to let you draw cards with Rhystic Study. It's like comparing thoughtseize to an effect that lets your opponents choose what they discard.
Yes, it does slow the game down, but nowhere near what Sensei's top did in modern and legacy.
If you find it that troublesome, may I suggest proposing to have it banned in your playgroup, because in my playgroup it really is not that problematic, since we usually just pay the 1, and are able to look past the wurmcoil engine when assessing who is the threat.
Or a reprint with a different effect, maybe with just creature spells to mirror esper sentinel being every non creature, or just the first card each turn
"Yeah I'd be playing whack-a-mole with the ban hammer. I've been playing commander for 12 years now and when I was younger I had almost a dozen copies of cyclonic rift and rhystic study cause I put them in every blue deck. Same with necropotence. I also had plenty of fun with dockside when he came out and smothering tithe when it came out. But I would ban every one of them. I would even ban Sol ring. The thing all these cards have in common is that they go in every single deck irrespective of the commander or the strategy. These cards that just win games on their own, are boring, repetitive, uninteresting, swingy and ultimately unfun."
I just made this comment on a video of yours from two weeks ago but i thought it was more relevant here
4:00
it's also worth noting that the artist of Invoke Prejudice *is* a white supremacist
Was that the Sylvan Library guy?
@@shonmatthew indeed it is, and Alabaster Potion among other things
The fact the RC *might* finally be getting around to *considering* a rhystic study ban shows how incompetent and unnecessary they are
Yawgmoth's Bargain is just way more powerful than Rhystic Study. Paying three mana for potentially 10+ cards over a few turns to grind out enough advantage to win is not on the same level as paying six mana to draw up to 39 cards immediately and win the same turn.
Man, idk who you play with but maybe play with some different players. Just have a conversation with people if you don’t want to play with certain cards. I have four decks with blue in them and play Rhystic in 1 of them.
I don’t think they should ban anything. I think people should be more open and honest about what they want to play and what experience they want to get out of the games.
I wholly believe that just hard mulliganing for rhystic study every game will increase any blue deck’s win rate by 25%
I would really like to know what Therese Neilson said that was so bad. I've searched, and could never find anything other than people saying "it was bad".
I'm inclined to believe the whole situation was astroturfed.
Stasis and storm cauldron are my #1 most infuriating cards
Why are we even having the discussion about this card when thassa's oracle and underworld breach exist?
Because those actually win games and do not just "spin the wheels". They do not really waste the most precious resource: Lifetime.
Same reason Paradox Engine got banned if i remember correctly.
Oracle wins or does basically nothing and Breach is either a win or a oneshot recursion like Yawgmoth's Will.
Because the casual players don't play Thoracle and underworld breach cedh lines. The ban list isn't for cedh. Honestly I'm shocked cedh doesn't have its own ban list because even if it's just commander at its strongest. The way the meta of the format is dominated by Thoracle and breach strategies sort of makes its desire to be a competitive format odd
@@jmanwild87honestly it's funny because cedh players asked flash to be banned because of flash hulk lines but apparently consultation thoracle is okay
@@nicolaskerenski5294a bad game absolutely does waste everyone’s time. And ubiquitous overpowered win cons can lead to bad metas and bad games.
lol if i dont play rystic study ill just play mana vortex , "vortex trigger please sack a land"
It's really good in cEDH because players are ultra greedy and will try to go over the top of the RS player. It's less good in casual where things can slow down and people should hopefully be running removal or interaction for enchantments like this. But because it generates so many game actions in EDH, people are just very aware of it.
People just gotta slow down a touch and not be super greedy.
I think it’s kind of silly to call for a ban. Card is really good but there’s LOTS of really good cards. It’s 1 of 99. There will probably be at least half of the games it’s never played unless the game goes really long 🤷🏻♂️
nonsensical. every card you aren’t tutoring as part of a combo is “one of 99” and won’t be seen every game. the games where rhystic study does get drawn and played are worse for it, that’s the relevant metric.
You sound like someone who has lost one too many times to a player who plays Rhystic Study. The whole video comes off less as a discussion piece and more like a salt video. You said it checks every reason that the RC bans cards, then later said well actually not these reason, but later than that still kept saying it gets checked by every reason.
Also, RS being stronger than Dockside or Crypt!? Now I KNOW this is a bad faith take. Crypt lets you play turns ahead of your opponents. Dockside can give you game winning turns for two mana, even in casual games (which nobody should be playing Dockside at a casual table to begin with). Like, Study isn't this monster card you're trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it's not a strong card. It's very strong. You're definitely overselling it though.
Quick question: do you or your playgroups not run interaction? I don't think bouncing effects, counter magic, and Naturalize type effects are very niche. It's stuff your deck should be running in the first place. Pay the 1! And then Assassin's Trophy it! Naturalize it. Feed the Swarm it. Disenchant it. Blue has no shortage of effects that bounce target permanent or counter target spell. If you're playing mono red, then I can empathize a little. Outside of Red E Blast, Pyroblast, and Tibalt's Trickery, mono red doesn't get a lot of answers to enchantments. Player removal works tho ;)
Look, I get if you don't like the card, but don't try to make it out like it defines the meta of EVERY table. Also, this is why converstaions between players need to happen more. It's one thing if a player plays Study while the other three are playing precons, that's a problem player. That's not Rhystic Study's fault. If everyone is playing a deck of relatively similar levels, it's not the Rhystic Study's fault if players aren't paying the 1 or don't run interaction.
Also also, how does drawing 15 cards add one minute per card to the game? Drawing 15 cards only *adds* that much time to the game is if that player is new to that deck or just doesn't know what they're doing. I'm just hoping that comment was exageration/hyperbole.
I played a pretty high power commander game where a will scion of peace deck played rhystic study. Despite being there from turn 3 it didn't draw cards until turn 6 and Despite drawing a load of cards off of it. The will player couldn't keep his commander on board leaving a bunch of high cost cards stranded in his hand. He lost that game because he was facing 2 grixis decks (myself and another player) that just countered his wincons. Card advantage does not matter if you're unable to use the cards
There’s a great reasons to not play Rhystic Study
1.) It’s a known power-card, your threat level will increase once played, and asking the tax will constantly bring you into focus which is terrible for blue control players in a pod.
2.) Doesn’t fit the theme of the deck, blue likes to play spell slinger decks. Sure it’d give you more spells, but I’d rather high tide and mindspring.
3.) It’s not fun to play with for the table.
Just the fact that "Terese Neilsen art" is being brought up at all immediately invalidates any opinion that follows.
Honestly, if they split the format, they should leave EDH alone and separate the casual players into their own little kiddie pool.
Ive held this stance for the past couple years the Rhystic is the most bannable card by a country mile(after Mind Goblin tbh). Whether it *should* be banned is a different question for me, but the issues the card has at all levels of play are very real. I do think that wotc has likely figured out the card is a problem so a real part of me would like to see how they balance future card design/answers around it. I think wizard's can design themselves out of it being the terror that it is but that would have to have some targeted designs.
same problem with smothering tithe, no one pays 2, thats obscene ramp, of course its a "white card" but its so tiering for every one with the trigger and power of this card. trouble in pairs is much better designed. The One ring is also a card i just dont want to see, just flicker it and your immortal if they cannot win with other strategys.
Rule zero is so simple.
Everyone they need to ban basic lands, if you look mountains are in 91% of the decks it’s can be played in. Must be so powerful if it’s in that high of a percentage
Wait till you hear about islands
Surprisingly, your numbers are way off.
Basics are only in something like 25% of cEDH decks anymore because they're just not good enough :S
@@EnderPryde surprising how so? I never said cedh. That’s surprising you assumed I meant cedh. I simply looked up the card called “Mountain” on edhrec, not cedhrec and stated the stats on that page, just like the video creator did. Rekt
Stop sarcasm. You speak about mountain to compare rhystic study and you speak about idiot ? Hahaha we can taste the salt of your tears.
@@jordanspier234 because if it isn't seeing play in CEDH, "being in X% of decks" is a meaningless statistic.
For example, Mana Crypt is in only 11% of decks in non-cEDH, but is in like 95% of cEDH decks. The latter is generally a better indicator of power level than the former.
Ok I don’t like that Sensei’s top comparison because at the same time that goes for any tax effect. Sometimes people have to be reminded of a Thalia on the battlefield and while the difference is Rhystic is permissive and Thalia is not, it really isn’t much different. Sensei’s Top is an activated ability that you can do at any point where Rhystic is a bit more predictable and quicker to resolve. Sensei’s requires you to look at 3 cards and rearrange them, while Rhystic asks a yes or no and draws a card. If you are not a player who doesn’t mind playing with it then ask people to play decks without it or swap it out. No one is making you play against it in casual commander. I don’t get the argument for “you cannot play it casually”. Not all cards are designed for casual play and that is by no means a reason for a ban.
While I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to a Rhystic Study ban, I feel like there are quite a few cards that need to go before it.
Dockside is the number one ban I want to see (2 mana you win the game), but there are a few others, mainly Jeweled Lotus, the commander free spells, and Thassa’s Oracle. I’d also like to see Smothering Tithe gone but that one probably isn’t strong enough to justify it, I just hate it xD.
Jesus i just must have landed in competitive hell or something i have never seen it draw more than 2 cards before ether its removed or the player is removed o.o
Just pay the one smh. If it needed a ban then i think all enchantments that call to force players to pay extra mana need banned too.
But I play with 2 other goofs who refuse to. 🤣
I choose not to play Rhystic Study in casual. It’s too oppressive when in my hands.
Only people bad at the game want rhystic banned tbh
RS is a stax card and you should treat it like one when facing it. If we're considering banning RS, we should consider banning Smokestack, Back to basics, etc...
Dockside is a much bigger problem imo because it's so easy to combo with it, and even with no combo the mana acceleration is absurd, which itself could be corrected by Wizards updating Treasures to have "this token enters the battlefield tapped".
Flickering, copying and reanimating Dockside kills me inside
I love playing with and around powerful and unique effects, I'd always want my opponents to play the cards they want and limiting card options seems bad to me. Commander has always been rather cracked as a format and if you want to diversify the format by pulling staples that's fine, but kinda lame to me.
With rhystic it can/will speed up the game if people are just going to not pay. If the opponents dont note paying 1 whenever they cast a spell just shortcut and draw the card.
Then again I'd be fine with the og mox and timevault being legal so maybe im the wrong person to signpost bans since that vaguely covers whatever rule 0 stuff.
Dockside and jeskas will please
I'm a CEDH player.
Ban dockside, thoracle, and bowmasters for CEDH. It won't hurt casual players but it'll help make the metagame less stale for tournaments.
Rhystic study is a amazing card should it be banned? In cedh I think after the 3 I want banned are banned we should think of banning rhystic.
the commity shouldnt be dedicated to banning the fun out of the game
If you think Rhystic Study is fun, you're the kind of player that needs to be banned out of the game
@andrewkelly1337 yeah it is, maybe this isn't the hobby for you
@@tristenbezayiff571 weird how like 95+% of the cards in the history of the game are designed for players like me and *not* for min/maxing try hards, and 99% the cards that get banned are banned because they're abused by min/maxing try hards
@@andrewkelly1337 there not ussaly banned for being good. either they are so good whole formats devolve into just them or they are so oppressive they shut down decks entirely. rhystic is good when your oppenents dont run removal, dont pay the one, or dont have a counter spell. hell the logic in the vid also include removing things like blood moon, and winter orb way before rhystic.
People will hunt down these things even more. the more rare and forbidden something is, the more appealing it is. So they don't want specific art in their game and somehow punish the artist but in the end, they bring even more attention to it. I'd like to see Rhystic banned nevertheless.
the card is super busted, but honestly how is it so bad it should be banned? in most games i see it, i draw more cards with like guardian project, great henge and stuff due to people having enough mana to pay for it
start banning fast mana, then ban stuff that gets REALLY broken due to that. blue was supposed to have the best carddraw but its not so much infront of green and way behind black lol
Rhystic fraws A LOT against combo and spell-slinger decks, and if they are casting a lot, you're probably loosing. Against average decks, it gives you 3-4 cards per rotation. It is a lot, but not unbeatable.
But more often, its just annoying. And such tax effects always will be.
So no, i don't think Rhystic study should be banned. Dockside maybe should, but what definitely needs to be banned is oracle of thassa. That wincon is just dumb, as there's too many ways to empty your deck, and not enough ways to stop it.
It sounds like y’all play pad is slow all you have to do is just ask if you pay the 1 or not for the rest of the game
Yes, no, maybe?
My playgroup is awesomely toxic if one of us starts crying we immediately target that person out of the game we shrug and go you know the rule it's hilarious and it teaches not to be douchey about the GAME we are all here to enjoy. One thing that is important though is easily grabbing a different deck after stomping us out with something mean. We all catch wins very consistently if it's only a couple games sometimes someone will sweep the night but other nights is other people I'd say it's pretty healthy at my table. Tournaments could stipulate top rs or dse bans specifically if they want to. I'd support that over bans....
My shit opinion, and yes, nobody ask for.
Rhystic Study is NOT a card draw enchantment, it's more likely a stax, so if you draw a lot of cards, your opponents are playing wrong. The card needs to be ban? Maybe, but not now. For example, Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extorsionist is far more concerning at this moment.
we should not be banning card because the art is quote "problematic art" because if we did we should have let magic die in its conception
My thoughts exactly. How about WOTC stop being so cheap and commission some new art for the cards banned because of the so called "prob;ematic art"
Bro you wanna play the racist cafd so bad wtf is your deal
@@andrewkelly1337 perceptions are very key idk about you but not long ago the concept of magic itself would have been a point of contention of equal or greater consequence
@@agrocreepers7710 you’re saying the concept of magic is as subjectively bad as racism if not worse? Idiotic comment.
@@agrocreepers7710 bro your empty rhetoric doesn't affect me. In fact your willingness to devolve into "well everything is relative" word salad has me 100% convinced you're only upset about people banning the racist card.
Rhystic study is incredibly strong but it should not be banned. The saying don't feed the fish with Mystic Remora applies to study as well. Slowing down the game can be mitigated by your opponents volunteering the information before you ask. There's plenty of cards that should go in every deck of X color should they also be banned. Rhystic study is way weaker than bargain because RS doesn't guarantee that you're drawing a bunch of cards. Yawgmoth's bargain is always going to draw you a bunch of cards because even if you play it and someone Disenchants it right away you can still draw 20 cards. With study you can have someone disenchant it. Pay 1 and Rhystic study did nothingbut be a tax effect on one spell. The floor is so low if your opponents are playing right. Not to mention There's plenty of cases where the mountain of card advantage doesn't matter because the cards are just rotting in the opponent's hand.
Hard to interact with? Every player sans mono red has access to in color removal for it and colorless options.
Insurmountable resource advantage is only if people don't pay and even then it can be surmounted if the table puts aside their grievances to handle the study player if they can't always pay.
Required to play? I have plenty of blue decks with so many other sources of card advantage that i don't feel like i need it
Constant mists should be banned? Non combat wincons are plentiful and you can just force the constant mists player to use it until they can't
Study is fine. If it's not in your playgroup it sounds like a playgroup problem and they shouldn't be banning things because certain playgroups don't play responsibly.
I just bought a copy of rhystic come on
People are crazy for thinking this card needs banning, but I play in high power with people that treat rhystic as a stack piece. Always pay the 1 unless doing so would prevent you winning the game or preventing an opponents win. It demands removal. Get good bros
Card banning is more annoying the more people ask for things to be banned. Why not ban any stax effects, slows the game down, causes resource imbalances, etc. let people play the way they want to play. Tired of seeing a card played? Removal and counterspells are a thing.
"Just play removal and counterspells"
This is short-sighted logic for Rhystic Study in particular.
It runs headlong into issues of tempo loss in 4 player games being worse than in 2 player:
If I cast Naturalize to destroy the Tutor (and paid the 1 to prevent the card draw) that means I've lost 3 mana for this round on the table, the person who played the Tutor lost 3 mana on the round playing the Tutor, but the other two players didn't lose any mana on the round, and now have a tempo advantage because of it - I'm actively helping someone else win, rather than advancing my own victory.
So it's typically just better to not let it hit the board at all, or to just not pay for directed removal and instead do board sweeps.
*But*
I also glossed over how Mystic Tutor is itself Blue, so it's going to have its own counterspell package to support it, and force more spells on the stack via counterspell wars, increasing the likelyhood of getting it to draw you cards.
Mystic Remora creates a mexican standoff for the other players at the table, while reaping most of the rewards.
@@EnderPryde how is it short-sighted? If you have removal and paid the one like you said you lost 3 mana sure, which means they paid 3 mana to draw no cards right? Wouldn’t it be more fair if someone paid 3 mana for a card draw to at least give them 2 cards before removing it? Also what is blue known for besides counter-spells and mill? That’s right card draw.
This format isn’t a tournament sanctioned format. Banning is overbearing cause in any play group you guys can collectively state which cards you guys don’t want to be played. If you’re someone playing competitively or like to play commander night at an LGS how is someone putting themselves in a better spot to win hurting the game? Do you want a game to take 2-3 hours?
@@jordanspier234because, as elaborated on, it's a neg-3 on mana to go 1 for 1.
And while there are no wotc sanctioned tournaments, there *are* cedh tournaments held at official events - and you can't just rule zero a card away you don't like at those sorts of events
@@EnderPryde you’re then playing at a tournament and should have expectations of what people will be running as meta.
I'm not quite convinced it "needs" to be banned, but from a cursory glance, it shows up in like 98% of cEDH blue decks.
That in-and-of itself is not an issue, plenty of non-problematic cards see higher usage in cEDH. Mystic Remora, Force of Will, and Cyclonic Rift as just three examples in Blue.
*But*
I think being a staple in cEDH is a reasonable first-pass litmus test for whether it's healthy for the format - Griselbrand is banned from EDH for similar "there's no reason not to run it in decks it's legal in".
So the next question becomes if the card is game-centralizing when played, rather than just a good card. And I'm... not quite sure myself. Repeated card draw that depends on opponents actions is a bit hard to quantify, but if you're spending 3 mana and over the course of the game it's generating hundreds of mana in value for you (or dozens of card draws), I think that starts to tip into "overly centralizing"
Even in its worst case, it is typically a 3 mana cantrip that absorbs critical removal in cEDH: Rhystic Study comes down, someone tries to destroy it, counterspell-war ensues, Rhystic Study player draws cards to replace their lost card advantage from counterspells because one or more of the players failed to pay the tax during the war.
Just don't be greedy and pay the 1.
No.
LETS GOOOOOOOO
rhystic says "when an opponent casts a spell draw a card" or "opponents spells cost 1 more to cast" both are too good for 3 mana. card is boring to play with and against. its a 3 mana enter the infinite. in the same way smothering tithe and dockside are 4 and 2 mana omniscience respectively. ONLY people who play these cards defend them.
We shouldn't ban cards that are intellegent includes. It is ubiquitous, which is problematic, but that is only because people don't destroy it. Blow it up! It doesn't have hexproof. It dies to like a 1000 plus spells. If it is that dangerous, isn't it worthy of removal? Don't ban cards because players are too stupid to remove it! Further, drawing cards doesn't always translate to wins. Often yes. But it is not even a win con in and of itself. People complain about the format yet refuse to build intellegent decks that interact with other decks. You know what else slows down game play? Interaction. Rhystic study forces interaction. Want something to ban? Drannith Magistrate. Wanna make people stop playing edh? Play a game where drannith sits there for 5 turns and the other players cannot access their commanders, the entire point of the format!
Uuummmm, I didn’t trade and buy certain cards for them to be banned later on. Ban one ring, ban dockside, ban black market, ban smothering tithe. I JUST started upping the power levels of my decks to match my play groups.
*talks about rhystic study clogging the game*
>me looking at my spellslinger deck "......"
yeah clogging the game is what it is doing. just let the controller before hand you aint paying for it-then deck them by playing buyback cards.
There are two arguments that are false in this discussion :
1) you have to play it. You don't. You can build your deck the way you want it. Playing without sol ring for a year now and there is no downside for doing so. If those people think like "if other people may run it, I have to be as toxic as they are and be a normy" I think that the card is not the problem.
2) The card is too powerful. There is an 3 mana blue aoe that asks people to sacrifice a permanent for each creature they control if they don't pay 1 (can't remember the name) and it's not played at all. Rhystic asks the same type of thing but rather than you going down a resource, you give one to your opponent. People are not playing around it correctly and then crying about it. Again, not a card problem.
The card has problems, don't get me wrong, the fact that it's not a positive addition to any game you'll play is something to consider, but let's not use points that are relying on people not playing the game using all their options.
Banning a card because of the art is fucking stupid. And the problem with Rhystic is because people are idiots----just pay the damn 1. You hate Rhystic? Pay the damn 1.
Ok...Be a slave if you want and pay ! 😂
You like Rhystic? Go play a fucking single player game so you can get your sick kicks wasting a bot's time instead of that or your fellow human being. So instead of being a dumbass, stop hating the game and liking bad cards that oppose the spirit of it.
Banning good cards because they are good, is bad for the format. Rhystic study has a work around. People just dont want pay the 1. If people were responsible gamers RS would just be sphere of resistance for 1 more mana that only hits opponents, and then RS wouldnt see nearly as much play. But then commander players would cry anyways because tax effects make casual players angry because they hate being interacted with. Lets ban every tax, stax, hatebearer, and any card that isnt battlecruiser meta friendly! /s
RS is fine, if it gets banned then i feel its the rules committee bending to cry baby commander players.
Also the argument that "every deck should play x card, so ban x card" is a bad argument. For so many reasons. I can easily use that argument to ban so many cards. All 2 MV or less mana rocks, all the good 2 mv green ramp, all the best removal spells, all tutors, all good generic value cards, etc. and then if you ban those cards, different cards would fill the slots that the current staples fill.
Oh and taking up time is a reason to ban cards? We should ban every card that searches the library. Cuz that take up way more time!
Ban hard to interact with cards? Lets ban all sorceries and instants because the stack is hard to interact with.
Rule 0 solves any issues with rhystic study.
My play group has no issues with it. Honestly it get removed or people pay the 1. Ive had so many games where the person playing it draws only a couple of cards. RS isnt a problem in commander, commander players being bad is a problem for commander
Good video, Despite the fact that i disagree with basically every point brought up. I like hearing opinions different than mine.
Only shit players would complain about rhystic study. Also learn to maintain your own banlist with your friends. Thats the whole point of commander.
Like, it straight up is just a skill issue if you have a problem with it.
1) Saying that Rhystic Study is even comparable in power Yawgmoth's Bargain, let alone claiming it's better, makes anything you have to say on this topic come across as just pointless complaining. That is such an outlandish claim that it's hard to take anything you have to say seriously.
2) I don't think a card should be banned because people don't play around them correctly. If everyone just pays the 1 then Rhystic Study is not an issues, and only really powerful in higher level cEDH games. You would never suggest a ban on Sphere of Resistance or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but Rhystic Study is often just a one-sided version of those cards if people just play around it correctly, which can be done very easily. It's a huge problem if people just ignore it, but that's true of so many cards that if that's a criteria for banning you will end up banning half of the format.
Ban orcish, dockside, and rhystic for the love of god
Lets not take the original too serious. If the format was created today the list would look a lot different.
Rhystic study is just a Thalia for all spells. It’s a great card for people to learn about the difference between tempo en mana advantage. Not every card should be beginner / Timmy friendly.
Commander is a inherent broken format and pretending to ban 1 card to fix it is hilarious. Further if you want to start banning cards to fix the format.
I stopped listening the moment he said it draws more cards than any blue. Consecrated sphinx makes rhystic study look like a poor joke. Rhysic is purely a skill check. When it hits the table pretend it says "your spells cost 1 more" like any other stax piece that's not even remotely bannable and it does nothing. Bad players make rhystic good.
I think your argument sounds bias. That being said, it should probably be banned because of the constant trigger nagging, which slows down the game. I think players should run enchantment removal. Players should just interact with it. Adapt and overcome.
IF THEY DONT LIKE RHYSTIC STUDY PAY THE DAMN ONE.
stop banning things from our fucking game. if we dont like someone using a stupid card at the table, WE can decide not to play with them, or make them grab another deck
I have no issue with rhystic study. Your point about it slowing the game is mute. If drawing cards makes people more likely to win the game, then wouldn't it actually speed up the game? There are much worse cards like winter orb, and anything that does the same type of thing. Anything that makes you pay to attack. You're basically arguing for any card played in control decks to be banned. Yea, i hate these and definitely agree with winter ord like effects needing to be banned, but nothing else is really that serious. Infinite card combos and swords also inhibit player expression and provide too much advantage. There's so much in this format that can qualify for any number of the reasons you stated.
Also "do you pay the one" is a sentence that takes less than a second to say. If they spend forever thinking if they want to or not, that is a personal problem for them.
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are far worse
Learn to play around and/or have answers for cards not cry for bans especially in commander.
Honestly smothering tithe should be banned first
I would be surprised if the RC does anything. I think at this point all they do is vaguely gesture to rule 0. They won't ban a card especially one with such high reprint equity for wotc as rhystic studies.
Every time there is a question in the title the answer is: No.
"She said some things that were not good and I disagree with the things that she said, I think, I don't know the full details..."
Wow, cool worthless received opinion you've got there bro. You don't even know the vague details, she's persona non grata because of... drum roll... vaguely right wing and conspiracy theory tweets she liked on the blue bird app. Because people living in coastal bubbles cannot stand ideological nonconformity, they banished a beloved and very talented lesbian artist because she holds thoughts in her head that roughly half the country hold.
"It's more powerful than Ancestral Recall"
No, it absolutely is not.
"It's better than Yawgmoth's Bargain"
No, it absolutely is not.
"I drew more than 15 cards off of Rhystic Study"
Then your playgroup is a bunch of jokers. Most recent game night, player resolved a Rhystic Study turn 3, drew exactly zero cards off of it, in play the entire game until he lost, to me.
"Every blue deck should be running Rhystic Study"
I have ten decks with blue in them and I run way more Mana Crypts than Rhystic Studys.
We need to be taking cards off of the ban list, not adding more cards to it. I don't want this game warped around those who are the least skilled at it. If you're not threat assessing based on handsize and/or not running a significant amount of spot removal you deserve to lose. Unironically git gud, and force your playgroup to also git gud.
Hell I've had games where a player drew 15+ cards off of rhystic and lost because everyone else was working to keep the card advantage as irrelevant as possible.
cyc rift should catch a ban before rhystic study.
You want slow games ban card draw that makes sense. It just annoys me that my cards I love and enjoy get dictated by people who don't know what my playgroup is like. We make it work. We play high-power decks catch a win and put it away and play something mid or even low power jank. I enjoy all of the above of course there's occasional games where it's annoying and I just want to try some new jank or a pre con and somebody steamrolls but we just shuffle up and that person plays something less powerful. Bans really miss me off tbh I can't think of a better way to kick all your new players in the balls right after they buy rs and dse but it's not my company am I right? Smh
You are the type of player to get salty if your opponent plays any type of interaction
If people don't pay the 1 they're playing wrong. If all it said was "opponents spells cost 1 more" would that be insane? If you said yes, then you should want to ban "Grand Arbiter Augustin IV" too, same thing + cost reduction + in the command zone. Minor stax effects like these HAVE A PLACE in commander, ANY of the cost increased cost effects slow people down. Its a strategy. If no one at your table pays the one, they should be shamed and attacked as if they played sol ring.
Rhystic Study is a card that shouldn't be played at casual tables, in the same way I think Bloodmoon, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV shouldn't be played at casual tables. This doesn't mean these should be banned, because they are generlaly rule 0'ed. They have a stigma to them, 'dont use these cards becasue they are too strong/too annoying for casual games'. Rhystic study should be in this list too, but it shouldn't be removed, because more experience tables, the card is FAR less good, because almost everyone pays the 1. Its more like 3 mana draw 3, or eat a removal or something.
I get theres the FEELING of card to consider too. I HATE, vorinclex voice of hunger. . with a PASSION. That card makes me upset like no other--I'm never going to call for a ban. I might tell someone at a low power table, maybe don't bring that deck or maybe don't include that card for this casual experince, because I'm not bringing a deck packed to the gills with counterspells to deal with it. . . that doesnt' mean I want it gone from every level of play. Its fun to have cards that are powerful, and sometimes its fun to hate things.
Anyway, don't ban things you find annoying, ban things that are genuinely busted like channel or time walk or time vault, and unban the rest or you're a coward.
Augustin is more fragile for being a creature, cost more, available in less decks because of color, not even comparable. Even in this version that rhystic study draws no cards, would still be casually played in 99 of more decks and feel awful to play against. The commitment of shoving a rhystic study into a deck is not the same as an expensive creature such as Vorinclex. Vorinclex may ruin the game( I also hate it), but doesn't feel so 'free' and 'easy'. You lose little to no tempo if someone spends a removal on it. Also, for how easily threats are percieved, rhystic study tends to end up in tables it doens't belong way more often.
i just spent 30 on rystic study please dont ban it i just started cammander and i like drawing cards
4:26 what was the bad thing? All I've ever seen was she liked some tweets and a troon made it their crusade to get rid of her
The bad thing was agreeing that biology is real. Essentially, wotc fired a lesbian during pride month for being too gay.
If you like cards like Rhystic Study, you dont even like the game you just like frustrating other people. And people like that only make pvp games worse, they should be shunned.
I don't understand the qualms with the art on Invoke Prejudice. The art literally depicts the title of the card. The artist captured a picture of prejudice -- in short, he did his job. And not only did he do his job, he did his job so well that his art has been crucified. Where have I seen this story before?
I believe the artist was a Klan member...
The bigger problem, with that one in particular, is that artist creates art like that to support his particular ideology.
This isn't a case of artist asked to make something distasteful, it's artist who makes distasteful art being hired to represent his distasteful views.
@@EnderPryde I'm not interested in the artist -- I'm interested in the art. Bill Cosby is a disgusting human. As a comedian though, he is one of the GOATs. He made me laugh growing up, and he did a lot of good paving the way for black talent on television. Talent is talent regardless of its creator's downfalls.
When somebody states that X card is better at drawing than Ancestral Recall I stop listening.
Wild how you think this card is ban worthy. I don’t run it much, but I’d never call something like this ban worthy. Most of the time when it’s played, everyone I’m playing with pays the 1, and the card only really goes nuts in bad matchups like storm. I think dockside is a lame ass card, but ban worthy? Wild
It honestly doesn't matter if a card meets every criterion for banning that the rules committee put out itself because they're not interested in being consistent or performing the function they were created for
I don't believe it should be banned, although I do wish it costed like triple blue so it was less splashable. Regardless, it's a powerful card that gives the choice to the other players at the table and it's always their fault when it performs well. If everyone just treated it like a sphere of resistance it would be fine. The real problem is that Hullbreacher is banned, and we need more card draw denial.
Trying to get cards banned from commander is just that, trying.
It definitely should catch a ban this is coming from a player that has 8 copies not all are in decks but all are in the ones that matter