Another thing worth noting: green has the most “mana dorks,” so playing Armageddon would put any player with llanorwar elves and the like at a massive advantage, and worsen the odds of stopping them.
Same with treasures and other artifact ramp. The difference is that both treasures and mana dorks have a myriad of non-frowned upon cards that can wipe them off the board.
Mass land removal spells are RISKY! Virtually every deck that can includes teferi's protection, boros charm, heroic intervention, etc. If one player saves all their lands and the rest get set back to the stone age, the game is effectively over.
i think a big part of armageddon v ramp is, ramp gets ahead early because of their early mana advantage. if a 4mv armageddon happens, ramp will already have a threat in place, and other decks now don't have any mana to answer it while you mentioned land recursion as recovery, even just drawing more normal ramp puts ramp deck that much further ahead because of how much further behind everyone else is as an aside, deep gnome terramancer isn't 'only really playable against green decks', given the existence and ubiquity of fetches
Playing green a lot for over 20 years, I didn't even consider the "tweet" relevant. By turn 4 playing elves, I don't need my lands anymore. On the opposite my Kaalia deck as a lof of land and mass destruction, in order to have only Kaalia able to spawn bit stuff . Also in green we have no answer to mass exile, expect for warping wail (which is uncolored). Back to Armaggedon, ok good, but it could be an advantage, "elvish piper"+ any mana dork, any creature you want, and people will lands in commander for example.
At first I heard of “allow for Armageddon to counter ramp” it sort of made sense, but the more I think about it, the more skeptical I am. For one it’s one card and in white so if you don’t play white, it will not change anything for you. If you do get to play Armageddon, if you play it “fairly”, I skeptical that the card will help you, as you spend 4 mana for something that hits you about as much as everyone else be someone else developing the board. I don’t think the vast majority of times you can play it unless you own the board. So then if you play Armageddon, you have to do it unfairly, which the vast majority of players hate. You are not countering green ramp, you are asking a narrow question, and if they don’t have counter magic or narrow answers, they lose. I agree that the answer needs to be new type of cards that reward the player that is not ramping. Softer effects that don’t just lead to stacks (unless your group is cedh or likes it)
If green gets to play all these aftermath analysts and splendid recs after a land wipe, why can’t the armageddon player play more artifact ramp to make it less symmetrical? Everyone seems to discount armageddon by itself compared to a whole green deck instead of considering how armageddon would fit in decks that would play it
I honestly think that the best solution i to bring back old "balance" effects for white . But white modern design in mind (exiling lands for example). theey work perfectly in theory but are too easy to abuse. The white ""catch up" cards are usually not good and dont help you win the game.
A few weeks I made a land deco deck and was banned from the playgroup I played with. I can confidently say land deco is good 👍 Edit: banning MLD is honestly dumb, compared to other strategies picking out something that is only GOOD when built properly just seems ridiculous to me.
I don't understand why people are upset. A lot of people want to have game last until everyone is settled, which is stupid. If your strategy is efficient and uses land destruction good. If no one among 3 opponents have an answer to a spell, their decks need improvement.
I wish there was more "ramp punish" that was functional. Geddon isn't quite the thing. To be healthy, there needs to be knowledge of it in advance ("I won't dump every land from my hand, they might Geddon") but that's not where we are. It's a more reasonable 1v1 card in say, Premodern, than multiplayer EDH. I like it in theory, but in gameplay it rarely leads to fun.
Green ramp is demonstrably not busted within the as-written rules for commander. We know from cEDH that it's actually one of the worst colors in the format. The issue is that casual commander both heavily limits the strongest aspects of the other colors (combo, stax, counters, colorless fast mana, etc.) and encourages long games where it's easy to spend your first several turns doing nothing but ramping. The solution isn't spamming Armageddons. Ramp thrives because of houserules, and the solution - if the a playgroup or the larger Commander community determines it to be a problem - is the same. We need to look at mass ramp with the same lens used for other defacto bans or arbitrary "power level" tiers and decide how much is acceptable in a given setting.
I'd argue that mass land destruction still works, but you won't be running it in your deck just to deal with it. You'd want to be able to prep for it, and then take advantage of it. Get a good exponential threat like Hero of Bladehold, Goblin Bombardment, or the like right before you blow up everything. Run artifact ramp or creature ramp which dodges the MLD, and then apply enough pressure that you can take out a player or two before they have time to recover, especially if the land-ramp decks you're up against aren't ready for it. While sure they'll now be incentivized to start building resilience into their decks to account for getting hit with mass land destruction, that both buys you time, and you can prioritize taking them out first with the prepared threats before they can get started on recovery. Alternatively, you can get rid of the recursion before wiping lands. Conversely, strategies that ramp out a lot usually have the issue of running out of gas. Making sure they don't get any more by removing payoffs such as the commander, card draw engines, and the like can help remove that feeling of helplessness if ever, but that'd require running more interaction. Does this potentially create an interaction arms race in the local meta? Yes, but you do sort of want interaction anyway. In the event interaction was not a thing people wanted, then it's a situation where people are okay with losing in exchange for not being stopped. Also, if a meta has Stasis and Thassa's Oracle at the same time, I'd argue that it's more of missmatch of power levels at that point as opposed to it being mass land destruction's fault.
technically, theres land equilibrium, but good luck getting one. Resource denial is not something WOTC is keen on printing as good- particularly land denial.
I actually have a sort of archenemy Thalia and the Gitrog Monster deck where one of the wincons is resolving Armageddon and recurring my lands with extra land drops. The deck is mostly about saccing my own lands, so oftentimes I get a ton of triggers when it resolves and just win the game. It's kind of funny because it shuts down my opponents for sure, but it also greatly benefits me for destroying all of my own lands. I like that aspect of the card, it being a sort of upside down landfall card. The strategy can be unfun, but it ends games quickly and can REALLY backfire if things don't go the way you intend. I don't think it's really ban worthy. It's super salty and can be totally devastating, but mana rocks and dorks are plentiful, especially in commander. Plus, it doesn't do anything to the board outside of destroying lands, so if your opponents are already built up and you Armageddon, well... the card garners a lot of hate, so you probably just got yourself killed. Plus like you said, it's in 0% of decks. Why ban a card with next to no play? That just doesn't make sense to me. TLDR; Armageddon can be backbreaking, but I don't think it should be banned because there's ways to play around it and it sees very little play anyways. You know what you're doing when you put that card on the stack, and table politics can often result in your swift demise if you don't win the game right after resolving an Armageddon effect.
If ramp is the problem, why not punish ramp? Cards like zo-zu are kind of a blueprint that could be followed in this regard. Don't deny the resource, but make sure it hurts more to get it. Make then discard a card if a land that wasn't played as normal etbs, make it enter tapped with stun counter. You know, make the green player give up another resource if they are ramping (blood moon and back to basics actually just really hurt multicolor decks, as monogreen ones come out mostly unscratched) I think, as the game stands, there is not enough cards of this variety though, so they could print more, and make them less about just punishing ramp and more about having a particular function but *also* punishing ramp. I'm thinking something like roiling vortex, which is a card I like a lot
the thing to remember is if you take away everyones mana, the player with the best ramp is probably getting it back fastest. theyre oftwn gonna end up just as ahead, youll have just stalled the game while accomplishing nothing
Playing a upheaval would do also Armageddon doesn't get rid of their mana dorks im also of the belief no cards should be banned otherwise you end up like yugioh
not even surprised Saffron is the one complaining about it, my guy complains about literally every mechanic in mtg he doesn't personally like or use himself.
As a player with mass land destruction frequent in my playgroup, no, green decks do not benefit more than other colors, although to be fair I disagree with the premise: green doesn't have the best ramp. Mana rocks are better than almost all green ramp cards (just look at some cedh decklists if you're curious) If you're getting outmatched by green it's because you're not playing enough rocks in your non-green deck. I dedicate at least 10 cards in every deck I build to ramp/ acceleration and in decks that are even slightly mana hungry I up it to 15.
This is a fallacy. Do you not play wraths because teferi's protection exists? Why would I refrain from playing MLD because hypothetically an opponent could have one Crucible of Worlds in their deck? It's an absurd argument. I play the cards that I want to play and I'm willing to play against anything. I don't make demands of the 10 different Ur-Dragon/Miirym players at my LGS, so don't give me shit for Armageddon and Death Cloud. I'll never forget the time a 4 color non-black Omnath player cheated 20 lands into play - one of which was Gaea's Cradle - and passed the turn presenting a lethal Avenger of Zendikar board state. I untapped and cast Obliterate and he rage scooped. Good riddance. So many people play obnoxious kill-on-sight autowin commanders, and actively take advantage of the taboo surrounding MLD by playing exclusively land-based ramp. How am I seriously supposed to compete with these types of decks if I can't limit their ability to recast their autowin card over and over?
Its crazy the excuses people will make when just hard targeting green decks early or playing enough removal deals with the inevitability of green decks. Geddon is unfun, sure. But cmon man no bans need to be made, people just need to acknowledge that playing a big green ramp deck with insane lategame inevitability will lead to getting targeted before they can roll the table.
green ramp being overpowered is a certified "doesn't know what he's fucking talking about" moment. The deck to beat in cedh is 4c nongreen Kraum/Tymna. The strongest green deck is Kinnan, but he's specifically using mana rocks, not lands.
Depends on the format. In EDH land based ramp is not the problem. The ungodly amount of mana dorks (some of which tap for insane amount of mana) and cards that let you untap more than once per turn cycle is. We need more cheap answers to cheap creatures in order to "punish" ramp. MLD should NOT be banned as it is already a niche strategy you have to build around if you play mld. If we gonna ban all "feel bad" strategies and cards, we would end with the format with nothing but battlecruiser solitaire decks.
Ramp is super good in edh. Green has the best ramp. Card draw is also super good. Blue has the best draw. Board wipes and removal is really strong. White is best at those. The graveyard is the most broken core mechanic. Black is the best at abusing it. Suddenly winning out of nowhere is crazy. Red has the most explosive plays with mass haste and big rituals Every color offers something powerful, focus on what your slice excels at and let the green players excel at ramp.
Another thing worth noting: green has the most “mana dorks,” so playing Armageddon would put any player with llanorwar elves and the like at a massive advantage, and worsen the odds of stopping them.
Great point!
Same with treasures and other artifact ramp. The difference is that both treasures and mana dorks have a myriad of non-frowned upon cards that can wipe them off the board.
This video reminded me to slot an Armageddon into my Hazezon deck :)
Mass land removal spells are RISKY! Virtually every deck that can includes teferi's protection, boros charm, heroic intervention, etc. If one player saves all their lands and the rest get set back to the stone age, the game is effectively over.
non-basic land hate is lovely, blood moon, back to basics, ruination, archon, all elite
i think a big part of armageddon v ramp is, ramp gets ahead early because of their early mana advantage. if a 4mv armageddon happens, ramp will already have a threat in place, and other decks now don't have any mana to answer it
while you mentioned land recursion as recovery, even just drawing more normal ramp puts ramp deck that much further ahead because of how much further behind everyone else is
as an aside, deep gnome terramancer isn't 'only really playable against green decks', given the existence and ubiquity of fetches
Playing green a lot for over 20 years, I didn't even consider the "tweet" relevant. By turn 4 playing elves, I don't need my lands anymore. On the opposite my Kaalia deck as a lof of land and mass destruction, in order to have only Kaalia able to spawn bit stuff . Also in green we have no answer to mass exile, expect for warping wail (which is uncolored). Back to Armaggedon, ok good, but it could be an advantage, "elvish piper"+ any mana dork, any creature you want, and people will lands in commander for example.
At first I heard of “allow for Armageddon to counter ramp” it sort of made sense, but the more I think about it, the more skeptical I am.
For one it’s one card and in white so if you don’t play white, it will not change anything for you.
If you do get to play Armageddon, if you play it “fairly”, I skeptical that the card will help you, as you spend 4 mana for something that hits you about as much as everyone else be someone else developing the board. I don’t think the vast majority of times you can play it unless you own the board.
So then if you play Armageddon, you have to do it unfairly, which the vast majority of players hate. You are not countering green ramp, you are asking a narrow question, and if they don’t have counter magic or narrow answers, they lose.
I agree that the answer needs to be new type of cards that reward the player that is not ramping. Softer effects that don’t just lead to stacks (unless your group is cedh or likes it)
There is an answer for every strategy. If your deck can't handle someone casting Armageddon, the answer isn't ban Armageddon.
If green gets to play all these aftermath analysts and splendid recs after a land wipe, why can’t the armageddon player play more artifact ramp to make it less symmetrical? Everyone seems to discount armageddon by itself compared to a whole green deck instead of considering how armageddon would fit in decks that would play it
I honestly think that the best solution i to bring back old "balance" effects for white . But white modern design in mind (exiling lands for example). theey work perfectly in theory but are too easy to abuse. The white ""catch up" cards are usually not good and dont help you win the game.
A few weeks I made a land deco deck and was banned from the playgroup I played with.
I can confidently say land deco is good 👍
Edit: banning MLD is honestly dumb, compared to other strategies picking out something that is only GOOD when built properly just seems ridiculous to me.
I don't understand why people are upset. A lot of people want to have game last until everyone is settled, which is stupid. If your strategy is efficient and uses land destruction good. If no one among 3 opponents have an answer to a spell, their decks need improvement.
@@nicolasannawn5715 that’s exactly what I thought too
I wish there was more "ramp punish" that was functional. Geddon isn't quite the thing. To be healthy, there needs to be knowledge of it in advance ("I won't dump every land from my hand, they might Geddon") but that's not where we are. It's a more reasonable 1v1 card in say, Premodern, than multiplayer EDH. I like it in theory, but in gameplay it rarely leads to fun.
Yeah. More cards like Treacherous Terrain and Price of Progress.
Green ramp is demonstrably not busted within the as-written rules for commander. We know from cEDH that it's actually one of the worst colors in the format. The issue is that casual commander both heavily limits the strongest aspects of the other colors (combo, stax, counters, colorless fast mana, etc.) and encourages long games where it's easy to spend your first several turns doing nothing but ramping.
The solution isn't spamming Armageddons. Ramp thrives because of houserules, and the solution - if the a playgroup or the larger Commander community determines it to be a problem - is the same. We need to look at mass ramp with the same lens used for other defacto bans or arbitrary "power level" tiers and decide how much is acceptable in a given setting.
I'd argue that mass land destruction still works, but you won't be running it in your deck just to deal with it. You'd want to be able to prep for it, and then take advantage of it.
Get a good exponential threat like Hero of Bladehold, Goblin Bombardment, or the like right before you blow up everything. Run artifact ramp or creature ramp which dodges the MLD, and then apply enough pressure that you can take out a player or two before they have time to recover, especially if the land-ramp decks you're up against aren't ready for it.
While sure they'll now be incentivized to start building resilience into their decks to account for getting hit with mass land destruction, that both buys you time, and you can prioritize taking them out first with the prepared threats before they can get started on recovery. Alternatively, you can get rid of the recursion before wiping lands.
Conversely, strategies that ramp out a lot usually have the issue of running out of gas. Making sure they don't get any more by removing payoffs such as the commander, card draw engines, and the like can help remove that feeling of helplessness if ever, but that'd require running more interaction.
Does this potentially create an interaction arms race in the local meta? Yes, but you do sort of want interaction anyway. In the event interaction was not a thing people wanted, then it's a situation where people are okay with losing in exchange for not being stopped.
Also, if a meta has Stasis and Thassa's Oracle at the same time, I'd argue that it's more of missmatch of power levels at that point as opposed to it being mass land destruction's fault.
Lets take ruination and blood moon off of the social ban list!
Oh great. all five-color decks are effectively banned now nomatter the intent.
@@welkijken Every blood moon format has 5 color decks still.
@@jordanshuriken terrible arguement as commander does not follow the same metrics as competitive formats.
@@welkijken Sorry, I guess I overestimated the intelligence of commander players and their ability to adapt.
@@jordanshuriken what a petty response
technically, theres land equilibrium, but good luck getting one. Resource denial is not something WOTC is keen on printing as good- particularly land denial.
Counter it then, non green player!
Im a big fan of "make them have it".
I actually have a sort of archenemy Thalia and the Gitrog Monster deck where one of the wincons is resolving Armageddon and recurring my lands with extra land drops. The deck is mostly about saccing my own lands, so oftentimes I get a ton of triggers when it resolves and just win the game. It's kind of funny because it shuts down my opponents for sure, but it also greatly benefits me for destroying all of my own lands. I like that aspect of the card, it being a sort of upside down landfall card.
The strategy can be unfun, but it ends games quickly and can REALLY backfire if things don't go the way you intend. I don't think it's really ban worthy. It's super salty and can be totally devastating, but mana rocks and dorks are plentiful, especially in commander. Plus, it doesn't do anything to the board outside of destroying lands, so if your opponents are already built up and you Armageddon, well... the card garners a lot of hate, so you probably just got yourself killed. Plus like you said, it's in 0% of decks. Why ban a card with next to no play? That just doesn't make sense to me.
TLDR; Armageddon can be backbreaking, but I don't think it should be banned because there's ways to play around it and it sees very little play anyways. You know what you're doing when you put that card on the stack, and table politics can often result in your swift demise if you don't win the game right after resolving an Armageddon effect.
My playgroup banned me for playing this type of deck 😂
If ramp is the problem, why not punish ramp?
Cards like zo-zu are kind of a blueprint that could be followed in this regard. Don't deny the resource, but make sure it hurts more to get it. Make then discard a card if a land that wasn't played as normal etbs, make it enter tapped with stun counter. You know, make the green player give up another resource if they are ramping (blood moon and back to basics actually just really hurt multicolor decks, as monogreen ones come out mostly unscratched)
I think, as the game stands, there is not enough cards of this variety though, so they could print more, and make them less about just punishing ramp and more about having a particular function but *also* punishing ramp. I'm thinking something like roiling vortex, which is a card I like a lot
the thing to remember is if you take away everyones mana, the player with the best ramp is probably getting it back fastest. theyre oftwn gonna end up just as ahead, youll have just stalled the game while accomplishing nothing
Playing a upheaval would do also Armageddon doesn't get rid of their mana dorks im also of the belief no cards should be banned otherwise you end up like yugioh
not even surprised Saffron is the one complaining about it, my guy complains about literally every mechanic in mtg he doesn't personally like or use himself.
As a player with mass land destruction frequent in my playgroup, no, green decks do not benefit more than other colors, although to be fair I disagree with the premise: green doesn't have the best ramp. Mana rocks are better than almost all green ramp cards (just look at some cedh decklists if you're curious) If you're getting outmatched by green it's because you're not playing enough rocks in your non-green deck. I dedicate at least 10 cards in every deck I build to ramp/ acceleration and in decks that are even slightly mana hungry I up it to 15.
This is a fallacy. Do you not play wraths because teferi's protection exists?
Why would I refrain from playing MLD because hypothetically an opponent could have one Crucible of Worlds in their deck?
It's an absurd argument.
I play the cards that I want to play and I'm willing to play against anything. I don't make demands of the 10 different Ur-Dragon/Miirym players at my LGS, so don't give me shit for Armageddon and Death Cloud.
I'll never forget the time a 4 color non-black Omnath player cheated 20 lands into play - one of which was Gaea's Cradle - and passed the turn presenting a lethal Avenger of Zendikar board state. I untapped and cast Obliterate and he rage scooped. Good riddance. So many people play obnoxious kill-on-sight autowin commanders, and actively take advantage of the taboo surrounding MLD by playing exclusively land-based ramp.
How am I seriously supposed to compete with these types of decks if I can't limit their ability to recast their autowin card over and over?
Its crazy the excuses people will make when just hard targeting green decks early or playing enough removal deals with the inevitability of green decks. Geddon is unfun, sure. But cmon man no bans need to be made, people just need to acknowledge that playing a big green ramp deck with insane lategame inevitability will lead to getting targeted before they can roll the table.
green ramp being overpowered is a certified "doesn't know what he's fucking talking about" moment. The deck to beat in cedh is 4c nongreen Kraum/Tymna. The strongest green deck is Kinnan, but he's specifically using mana rocks, not lands.
Depends on the format. In EDH land based ramp is not the problem. The ungodly amount of mana dorks (some of which tap for insane amount of mana) and cards that let you untap more than once per turn cycle is. We need more cheap answers to cheap creatures in order to "punish" ramp. MLD should NOT be banned as it is already a niche strategy you have to build around if you play mld. If we gonna ban all "feel bad" strategies and cards, we would end with the format with nothing but battlecruiser solitaire decks.
Tldr, Armageddon is the answer
Ramp is super good in edh. Green has the best ramp.
Card draw is also super good. Blue has the best draw.
Board wipes and removal is really strong. White is best at those.
The graveyard is the most broken core mechanic. Black is the best at abusing it.
Suddenly winning out of nowhere is crazy. Red has the most explosive plays with mass haste and big rituals
Every color offers something powerful, focus on what your slice excels at and let the green players excel at ramp.
nah dont ban anything