Indo-Aryan Origins, Genetics and Pre-History: A Conversation with Ashish Kulkarni
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Join Mukunda as he speaks with the Ashish Kulkarni, better known on twitter as @agenetics1, he is an engineer and part of a new wave of online genetics researchers, who have access to all the genetic data and are now able to model the data to confirm current ideas or develop new ones. In this episode, we discuss a host of topics including:
00:02:19 Ashish’s Background and how he got into studying genetics
00:11:30 Discussion on how languages can spread
00:19:10 What is Proto-Indo-European, Who were the people who spoke it, where and when were they in history? Discussion on the homeland of Proto-Indo-European people (Kurgan, Anatolia, Steppe) and the potential migration paths of the various groups of Proto-Indo-Europeans into Europe and Asia
00:41:40 Genetics of the Indus Valley Civilization and the role of Iranian Farmer ancestry across all Indo-European language speaking groups.
00:56:33 Argument and Evidence for Central Asia being the homeland of the Indo-Aryan language family and their people
01:02:20 Horses, Chariots and Wheels
01:25:30 How has Ashish’s theories been reacted to and responded to by other genetic researchers?
01:31:30 Discussion of R1a haplogroup
01:47:50 Concluding Thoughts
You can find Ashish Kulkarni at:
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Twitter: @agenetics1
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Fantastic analysis Ashish. You are one of the very few enthusiasts in India who is properly conversant with and has such a clear grasp of the genetics data. More people in India need to understand the current importance of this field (in addition to the earlier ones of linguistics and archeology) if one is to counter the leftists and eurocentrists on their own terms, particularly with regards to the IE-India question. You deserve a bigger platform.
THE WORD "SLAVE" IN EUROPE
"The meanings are mostly derived from selfdesignations (Slavs, Aryans) and a wide range of subordinate relationships"
"The transformation of an ethnic description into a word for “slave” may not be unique in Europe. In the
Balto-Finnic languages, which include Finnish, Estonian and Karelian, orjus, orjuus and similar words carry the meaning of “slave, servant, beggar”. The word, most specialists agree, comes from the Indo-Aryan *áryas,
meaning Aryan. Around 4,000 years ago, the linguistic area of the Indo-Aryan groups stretched across the Central Asia steppes between the Caspian Sea and the Urals. It is possible that the Uralic-speaking groups who lived there met enslaved Aryans, or themselves enslaved them, and adopted their name into their vocabulary as orja.
In any case, Balto-Finnic and Sami languages later developed from Uralic. They took the word with them as their migration took them to Finland and northern Scandinavia. The Indo-Iranian Aryans, on the other hand, moved southwards.
Language specialists also count as part of the word family of *áryas and orja a term in Lule Sami, a language spoken mainly in Sweden with between 650 and 1,100 speakers. This term may reveal a shadow of the old relationships between the Urals and the Russian steppes: årjan in Lule Sami means “far to the south”."
- Atlas-of-Enslavement [website / p_d_f]
Early Indo-Iranian loans: PFU/PU (?) *ćeta ‘hundred’ ← PIIr *ćatám, 🇭🇺 Hu ostor (< *oćtVrV) ← PIIr *aćtrā ‘whip’
Later contacts between the Iranian branch and the various Uralic languages: especially many loans in the Permic languages, Hungarian, Ob-Ugric
Several layers of Iranian loanwords (Alanic loans)
Early loans (in Hungarian and other branches of Uralic) point to an archaic donor (Proto-Iranian/Old Iranian) > no specific dialectal features (East Iranian or the like)
🇭🇺 Hu tehén ← PIr *daHinu- ‘cow’; Hu vásár ‘market’ ← (M)Ir *wačar; Hu arany < PUg *θerańa ← OIr *zaranya- ‘gold’, Hu hét < PUg (?) *säptä ← PIr *sapta- ‘seven’
Later layer(s) of Alanic loanwords in Hungarian (also in the Ob-Ugric and Permic languages)
Examples: 🇭🇺 Hu kard ← Alanic *kard, Hu egész ← Alanic *agas, Hu ezüst, ← Alanic *æzvist
- Holopainen, Sampsa 2019: Indo-Iranian borrowings in Uralic: critical overview of sound substitutions and distribution criteria.
Proto-Finnic: *vasara
Proto-Indo-Iranian: *wáĵras
My first intro to Ashish Kulkarni. So interesting. It has motivated extensive notes-taking and also further reading ever since. Thank you.
Thank you
If PIE/OIT is true, then the migrations should have happened from India before 5000BC since AASI mixture with IVC estimated to "~5400 to 3700 BCE" CI as per Narasimhan paper.And boy, as per the Paul Heggarty paper, PIE split around 5000 BC.
And the only scientific researcher who has given such dates from multiple angles is one and only Dr. Premendra Priyadarshi. Hats off to him if it turns out to be true. He gives date for RigVeda, Zagros-Pakistan connection, Halaf Culture connection, Migrations from Asia to Europe (Brandt) at around 6000BC to 5000 BC.
very interesting analysis by Ashish and happy to hear from a fellow NITKian
Hello Ashish and Mukunda
Iam not a genetist, but I read anthropology, genetics ect..
I have a question does Y chromosome alone give a complete picture about identity.
Shouldnt poly genes be considered for shaping a civilization.
In addition if somebody has similar haplogroup to groups far away does thst mean all other anthropogical features are similar. For example ashkenazi jews may have eastern European haplogroup like R1a but nowhere they claim they are Europeans. So my thought is the claim of a relation does not come by only Y but may be poly genes.
For example brahmin have various haplogroup with probably r1a, j ect yet they identify themselves as brahmins.
Also wanted to mention something quite interesting, i was watching V.S ramachandran lectures on neurons that shaped civilization. The next question which will arise how are neurons related to genetics, if that is the case there needs to poly genes for shaping civilization.
How do you conlude on this.
Enlightening discussion!
Ashish What do you think about a theory that he earliest R1 group spread to central Asia, India and Europe in 20000 to 25000 BC. In Central Asia and South Asia the descendants were R1a and in Europe the descendants was R1b. Doesn't absence of R1a in Europe suggest that there ii's something wrong with the proposed time of movement. In 20000 BC it can not be ruled out that these people had same words for mother (matr) father (pitra), three (tri), etc
R1A means nothing more than you having some contact with steppe people from father's side. That's all it is nothing more than that.
@@praz7 which subclade and mutation are u talking of. How do you trace it to Steppes. Also as to place of origin of a mutation it is within possibilities that the same mutation can happen in two different individuals in 2 different places. It is possible?
Shrikant Talageri, Nicholas Kazanas, AAS? B. B. Lal, Michel Danino, Koenrad Elst, PP? VNP? S.R. Rao. Volotore is wrong. Based on his a-genetics blog posts Ashish has read Talageri, Kazanas, Danino. Voltore also forgot DF (David Frawley).
I said "doesn't seems to...". If he has read these scholars work he won't have posited an alternative homeland outside India. He claims IVC is IE but not convinced its PIE, which is what many of these scholars I mentioned put forth. He takes genetics genetics to be the prime evidence while the rest are supporting. These is exactly opposite what SK and KE have been saying. Also there are many other scholars I didn't mentioned such as FEP.
@@raghavarvoltore6517 shouldn't genetics be given preference as its hard science unlike linguistics, white black. fyi not a fan of aryan picnic/holiday theory.
@@theybecameus no, because is a linguistic question of proto indo European languages. AIT is about the origin of a language family. How can anyone prove gene X carries language Y? I am simply amazed at this leap of faith some people make. Buddhism spread from India. Did the genes spread? It has NOTHING to do with the origin or Proto Indo European. I repeat NOTHING.
@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 "seen corded ware dog which have indian dog admixture" Please provide the source for this.
@@peachinpeace9300find me south Asian hunter gatherer gene in Europe and I might consider oit
1:13:00 for that you need to prove that rigveda we have today, was completely composed in that period. Many believes that vedas were composed way later.
the language in which rigved is written is vedic sanskrit, which by linguistics is clearly the earlier of all the indo aryan languages. It is scholarly accepted too.
Many believed that Vedas were written later .....
It means those "believers" too don't have any proof of rigved being written later they too just believe 🤣
Many people believe Rigveda was written by gods themselves so cannot argue about that. They also believe lord Brahma just created Manu in India and then from there everything started.
@@praz7 that's nonsense
Vedic aryans are fish eating Brahmins who liVed along saraswati and composed vedas the ivc population is a later generation of same population they migrated after saraswati dried up
Ashish doesn't seem to be familiar with the works of ST, NK, AAS, BBL, MD, KE, PP, VNP and SRR. They have provided overwhelming evidence of IVC being Aryan and some provided a OIT/IIA model. Please invite some of them on your podcast.
Who are they? Please elaborate the acronyms of the names you have given
I recognise B B Lal and Michel Danino there
One is Srikant talegiri, one is koenraad elst
I am familiar with the works of all these people. If one saw the video fully, I myself propose IE languages in India much before 1500bce and unrelated to steppe. However, that does not prove OIT. There is no evidence to prove large scale migration from India to Anatolia or Europe (yet), and thus no evidence for OIT yet. What remains is an older movement of Iranian ancestry into India as a possible route.
@@ladagspa2008 I know you have proposed in this video that IVC was IE but you are not convinced that PIE originated there. Which is why I said "..doesn't seem to be familiar..." because if you have read and understood them you with know that PIE homeland can be logically situated in NW India without reference to the current politics of genetic research. Of cource it is a supporting evidence and be shown with due time and enough data but you take genetics as prime evidence and the rest as supporting.
Since savarnas could not establish indian origin of Indo-European theory this new savarna come with new cooks up to become another shinde
This is based on evidence. Out of India is bs cause South Asian hunter gatherer isn't available in Europe. AMT happened in bmac and not in subcontinent. They then moved into India from there.
Mukunda needs to keep quiet and let the guest speak. He keeps interjecting with his moth eaten thought and confused phraseology..
thanks for the feedback sam, much appreciated I'll keep it in mind
Too many interruptions and loud noise and laughter by host Mukund not approved
Short your intro,man