10:30 We are already seeing restrictions on social transitioning here in the USA. Where I live in Florida it is currently illegal for students and teachers in public schools to use names and pronouns “not aligned with their biological sex.” There are plenty of such restrictions trying to be passed into law right now and it’s horribly scary. Not to mention multiple states that are trying to pass laws on being able to take trans children away from their parents if their parents allow them to live as the gender they identify with.
There are also proposals to create a "registry" of trans people (does that sound familiar at all?) and hotlines that have been set up to essentially report trans people existing out in public. This year, like the beginning of last year, there have been approximately 100 pieces of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation proposed per month, and far too many of them are getting passed.
Also in Florida here, and yeah, it's... Bad. And thankfully some even worse proposed legislation failed this year, but I fully expect to see more of the badness next year after the election is over. We do have some hope with some of the court cases on this legislation, but once it eventually goes to the state and then federal Supreme Courts, I suspect that the state Supreme Court will find in favor of the state and then the district court of appeals and the US Supreme Court are more iffy given their current makeup. Sigh. I hate everything about this and I absolutely cannot afford to move to any of the states where the legislation is better, so I'm just doing everything I can to keep fighting here to stand up for the other people who just can't leave the state.
With regards to off-label use... There is a major danger there, in that the described side-effects for the medication may be incorrect or incomplete. For example, I'm on HRT. The entire documentation of the medication I take presumes that a cis woman is taking it to supplement a hormone deficiency, so hardly any of the documentation applies to me as a transfemme non-binary person taking those meds. We're always told that it's super important to read all the documentation that comes with any medication we take - but what if most of that doesn't even apply to us, and almost everything that does apply to us isn't on there? Hmmmm... (Note: this is not a statement against off-label use like we should ban all off-label use, but a statement against off-label use like all those off-label uses should be fully included in the label...)
i was put on the tavistock waiting list in 2018 and never even recieved an appointment letter from them before i became an adult in 2022 - i was supposedly put on the adult GIC waiting list when i turned 17 and a half, slightly bumped up the list to account for my wait on the adolescence one, but still havent heard a word from them, not even a letter or email. anyways, gone private and been on T 1.5 years now! im super lucky to have had that opportunity and a gp who knows how to share care which brings my prescription prices down. best of luck to all my trans homies out there, i love u ❤
Im not sure if this is something that you would be willing to talk about but Idk why but no one has been talking about the fact that we discovered an ocean in the mantle. I would love for you to shed some light on this quite new interesting discovery.
What is even more concerning is the things Hilary Cass has said after the publication of the review such as, trans people shouldn't be included in a conversion practices ban because some therapist may be hesitant to treat them
@@anttikristian Forcing someone to not be trans, or not be gay, is by definition conversion therapy. It has already been widely refuted, including by the APA Task Force study that demonstrated it to be not just ineffective, but harmful. It is not legitimate psychotherapy.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 Do you know what's in that APA study? - " _Children and adolescents are often unable to anticipate the future consequences of a course of action and are emotionally and financially dependent on adults. Further, they are in the midst of developmental processes in which the ultimate outcome is unknown. Efforts to alter that developmental path may have unanticipated consequences_ " Based on that, it kinda sounds like puberty blockers might be a bad idea. That study is 100% focused on sexual orientation btw. And it does not support the notion that gender-related psychotherapy is harmful. The only firm statement they make is " _We found no empirical evidence that providing any type of therapy in childhood can alter adult same-sex sexual orientation_ " which I would completely agree with as most desisted transitioners are gay/bi. However, out of detransitioners' own mouths, there is at least a subset of trans people who are dealing with internalized homophobia and see transition as a way to become "hetero-normative". Psychotherapy is the only way to help people figure out these sorts of things (and others) before irreversibly altering their physiology. The attempt to lump psychotherapy in with religious conversion camps does a disservice to society as a whole and needs to stop.
@@Viral9 Every single one of your conclusions is a non sequitur and a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize what the study was actually saying. The study is specifically talking about conversion therapy as "altering the course of development" not puberty blockers. Separate studies that were actually about puberty blockers have found them to be safe and reversible, by overwhelming consensus, but you ignore that of course. You are disingenuously conflating several different categories, and you have absolutely no grounds to conclude that conversion therapy is good for trans people. First of all, more than 80% of detransitioners do so because of discrimination, family rejection, lack of social support, or loss of access to medical care. When these problems are addressed, the majority will resume their transitions. Secondly, desistance is not the same as regret. Gender affirming care has a less than 0.5% regret rate, which is lower than most other medical treatments. Third, the people who willingly detransition due to their gender identity changing back have said they do not regret the experience. Forcing people to stop being trans is by definition conversion therapy. The same exact methods are applied, and the same is true in both cases. The detransitioner grifters like Oli London are lying when they claim that gay people become trans to avoid homophobia. Gay people have gained acceptance in society, while transphobia and anti-trans legislation are on the rise. There are factions of gay people who want to exclude trans people from the queer community. It is completely delusional to think that "becoming trans" makes a person's life so much easier.
My dissertation is due in under 10 hours and I’ve looked at the cass review as part of it. I don’t have time to watch rn bc I have adhd so I’ve left loads of work until the last minute 😃 but in the words of Horton (2024) the cass review is “an exercise is cis-supremacy” !!!
Cass review or mutilation of children? The review just pointed out the lacking evidence, lack of scientific method and that more research needs to be done until this experiment on children can continue.
@@anttikristian Nice strawman. Minors are not getting gender related surgery. There is already scientific consensus on the efficacy of gender affirming care, so for you to pretend it hasn't already been widely studied is tinfoil territory.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 I think you presented the strawman because they did not claim "minors are getting surgery". That's a red herring from the core of their point. As for consensus, Dr Steven E. Hyman wisely noted "no one should mistake expert consensus for the truth" because "Without genotypes, objective tests, clues to pathogenesis, and even adequate family and longitudinal studies for most current diagnoses, it was not possible to establish a true empirical base for valid diagnoses in [the DSM]". People sitting around a table and nodding their heads is not an exercise in rigorous scientific truth seeking. Given that the Cass Review used the existing literature as well as data from the Tavistock and interviews with clinicians and patients, it's reasonably clear that the broader "consensus" isn't particularly meaningful. More simply put: "Strong recommendations are justified when they are based on high quality evidence. Uncertainty in benefits and harms (that is, low quality evidence) generally leads to weaker recommendations." Anyone making strong recommendations based on a low quality evidence base deserve to be questioned and countered. It's no wonder the Endocrine Society feels threatened by the Cass Review because their strong "consensus-based" recommendations use research that they themselves rate as low and very low quality on the GRADE scale. I certainly wouldn't call such recommendations impartial.
im in Scotland and when i changed my gender marker upon changing it for my passport, this was 8 years ago now i was 16 and i got a new nhs number however they transferred all my details properly and i got letters about a smear test. its shocking how bad everything has gotten. i was 16 but because of the clinic messing up i didn't start testosterone until several months later in the year. i was in the child clinic so got hormones at 16 i started going to the clinic at 15 when i didn't need an adult present (can go to appointments without a guardian from 14), i had socially transitioned with friends and unofficially for quite a few years so i only had to complete some therapy and by the time that was done i only had to change name and live as the gender i identify before getting started on hormones , i did lie about how out i was at this time my mum didn't know but at 16 left school went to collage, changed my name and lives as Danny then started hormones the summer of my 16th year. but wow what a different world it was 8 years ago to now
also hormone blockers werent a thing when i was 11 to 14 i think they only became possible to get when i was about 18 by that time already on cross sex hormones
trans person here ! I was referred to a gic at 12 years old (much younger than most people are), hoping that I'd be on hormones by the time I was 16, Im 18 in 3 months and havent even had an initial appointment, the only communication Ive had in 6 years is that I needed to be transferred to an adult wait list! Its absolutely awful, no matter how young you get referred theres such a small chance of you getting an appointment, let alone starting hrt or blockers, before puberty has permenantly changed your body.
@@anttikristian Educating people about those who are different from you is not forcing it upon you. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
I got referred to the Tavistock at 13. I didn’t see them until I was 14. The first guy I saw there was the guy who coined the term which is basically conversion therapy for trans people (Anastasis Spiliadis). Had therapy for 4 years and got nowhere. Got referred to the GIC about 6 months before my 18th birthday. 42 months later I just had my first appointment at adult services. My dad read the Cass report and took it to suggest that there wasn’t enough evidence for gender treatment at all and that it should be restricted until you are 25. I couldn’t immediately see this in the Review but I wouldn’t be surprised if it suggested that. I have waited 42 months for even a chance at care. If that suggestion is put into effect, which both the Tories and Labour said they’ll do, I would have to wait another 42 months for that treatment. I cannot wait another 42 months. And I am saying it now, if the government put that into effect I will be self immolating in front of Downing Street before the day is done.
@@yusaki8064 no, you won’t. You are just saying that. You’re just saying that for attention. Like most trans suicide attempts, fake and only intended to get attention
It seems strange that you never brought up desistance rates. They're over 50% (extract number depends on study), and that implies we don't have any predictable way of separating trans people from confused people. Shouldn't that be a concern for advocates of puberty blockers?
Can you tell me which study suggests this? Because what I have heard is that the vast majority of those on puberty blockers move on to HRT and rarely desist. Even many conservatives have said this although they use it to claim that puberty blockers is what causes gender dysphoria to continue. Also when I Google it, it says desistance rate is 2-3%.
Yes, you are correct that the vast majority of children put on puberty blockers do not desist. In fact only 1-3% return to their birth sex. However if you look at the children who don't take puberty blockers, 55-85% (depending on study) of children resolve their gender dysphoria while going through puberty. I have found advocates of puberty blockers generally try to obscure this reality.
@@alexandredesmarais3848 That's true, but only if you look at children taking puberty blockers. If you look at children who don't take puberty blockers 55-85% of them desist during puberty. I find advocates of puberty blockers obscure this reality.
@@lukebowman1345 Because I don’t know where you saw that but it’s not a reality. The amount of trans young adults and trans teenagers asking for gender affirming care is about the same. If your statistics were true, trans teenagers would greatly outnumber trans adults but they don’t. The percentage of trans people only starts going down significantly for those passed age 25, way after puberty is finished.
@@alexandredesmarais3848 A quick google search for "desistence rates for children with gender disphoria" puts it at 80%. My real question is why are people so committed to disputing this?
Are you trans?
Yes very
👍🏻😁
Yeah👍
Yeah
Si 🏳️⚧️
Luke looks a bit different today.
Did he get a haircut or something?
He got plastic hair surgery
Edit: I just realised this makes it seem like I’m saying that his hair looks like plastic. That’s not what I meant 😢.
Nope that's Pseudo-Luke
genuinely laughed sm when it cut to him
When listening I was so confused why he sounds so different
it would be really funny if he was just another dude called luke cutforth
i love how corry’s wearing a shirt from merch from a song wrote about him😂
I love how many recent episodes noah has been in!!
I would just like to say I would 100% appreciate the "fully picking the report apart" sci guys episode.
10:30 We are already seeing restrictions on social transitioning here in the USA. Where I live in Florida it is currently illegal for students and teachers in public schools to use names and pronouns “not aligned with their biological sex.” There are plenty of such restrictions trying to be passed into law right now and it’s horribly scary. Not to mention multiple states that are trying to pass laws on being able to take trans children away from their parents if their parents allow them to live as the gender they identify with.
in indiana we need parent's permission for teachers to use other names and pronouns which sucks when you're not ready to come out
Same, it’s stupid because some people are in situations where they feel in danger and can’t ask their parents (I also live in Florida)
There are also proposals to create a "registry" of trans people (does that sound familiar at all?) and hotlines that have been set up to essentially report trans people existing out in public. This year, like the beginning of last year, there have been approximately 100 pieces of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation proposed per month, and far too many of them are getting passed.
Florida is bat$h1t crazy, our governor is an a$$h013
Also in Florida here, and yeah, it's... Bad. And thankfully some even worse proposed legislation failed this year, but I fully expect to see more of the badness next year after the election is over. We do have some hope with some of the court cases on this legislation, but once it eventually goes to the state and then federal Supreme Courts, I suspect that the state Supreme Court will find in favor of the state and then the district court of appeals and the US Supreme Court are more iffy given their current makeup. Sigh. I hate everything about this and I absolutely cannot afford to move to any of the states where the legislation is better, so I'm just doing everything I can to keep fighting here to stand up for the other people who just can't leave the state.
poor noah still trying (and failing) to be called the third sci guy :,(
With regards to off-label use... There is a major danger there, in that the described side-effects for the medication may be incorrect or incomplete. For example, I'm on HRT. The entire documentation of the medication I take presumes that a cis woman is taking it to supplement a hormone deficiency, so hardly any of the documentation applies to me as a transfemme non-binary person taking those meds. We're always told that it's super important to read all the documentation that comes with any medication we take - but what if most of that doesn't even apply to us, and almost everything that does apply to us isn't on there? Hmmmm...
(Note: this is not a statement against off-label use like we should ban all off-label use, but a statement against off-label use like all those off-label uses should be fully included in the label...)
oh my god i just realised noah sounds like gerard way speaking😭
Hmm Luke seems a bit off here… I’m not quite sure why
i was put on the tavistock waiting list in 2018 and never even recieved an appointment letter from them before i became an adult in 2022 - i was supposedly put on the adult GIC waiting list when i turned 17 and a half, slightly bumped up the list to account for my wait on the adolescence one, but still havent heard a word from them, not even a letter or email. anyways, gone private and been on T 1.5 years now! im super lucky to have had that opportunity and a gp who knows how to share care which brings my prescription prices down. best of luck to all my trans homies out there, i love u ❤
You are a guinea-pig for nazi-tier medical experiment. Grats!
1:06:11 Hahahaha! Estimated to range from 3.2% to 95%?! Like what?! That's 91.8% of possible percentages! How is that a helpful estimate??
47:33 I mean if it was a legal requirement and they didn't do it, that's a good grounds to sue on, no?
Im not sure if this is something that you would be willing to talk about but Idk why but no one has been talking about the fact that we discovered an ocean in the mantle. I would love for you to shed some light on this quite new interesting discovery.
What is even more concerning is the things Hilary Cass has said after the publication of the review such as, trans people shouldn't be included in a conversion practices ban because some therapist may be hesitant to treat them
Yeah that's just plain old discrimination. No way around it.
Psychotherapy is not conversion therapy.
@@anttikristian Forcing someone to not be trans, or not be gay, is by definition conversion therapy. It has already been widely refuted, including by the APA Task Force study that demonstrated it to be not just ineffective, but harmful. It is not legitimate psychotherapy.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 Do you know what's in that APA study? - " _Children and adolescents are often unable to anticipate the future consequences of a course of action and are emotionally and financially dependent on adults. Further, they are in the midst of developmental processes in which the ultimate outcome is unknown. Efforts to alter that developmental path may have unanticipated consequences_ "
Based on that, it kinda sounds like puberty blockers might be a bad idea.
That study is 100% focused on sexual orientation btw. And it does not support the notion that gender-related psychotherapy is harmful. The only firm statement they make is " _We found no empirical evidence that providing any type of therapy in childhood can alter adult same-sex sexual orientation_ " which I would completely agree with as most desisted transitioners are gay/bi. However, out of detransitioners' own mouths, there is at least a subset of trans people who are dealing with internalized homophobia and see transition as a way to become "hetero-normative". Psychotherapy is the only way to help people figure out these sorts of things (and others) before irreversibly altering their physiology.
The attempt to lump psychotherapy in with religious conversion camps does a disservice to society as a whole and needs to stop.
@@Viral9 Every single one of your conclusions is a non sequitur and a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize what the study was actually saying. The study is specifically talking about conversion therapy as "altering the course of development" not puberty blockers. Separate studies that were actually about puberty blockers have found them to be safe and reversible, by overwhelming consensus, but you ignore that of course.
You are disingenuously conflating several different categories, and you have absolutely no grounds to conclude that conversion therapy is good for trans people. First of all, more than 80% of detransitioners do so because of discrimination, family rejection, lack of social support, or loss of access to medical care. When these problems are addressed, the majority will resume their transitions. Secondly, desistance is not the same as regret. Gender affirming care has a less than 0.5% regret rate, which is lower than most other medical treatments. Third, the people who willingly detransition due to their gender identity changing back have said they do not regret the experience.
Forcing people to stop being trans is by definition conversion therapy. The same exact methods are applied, and the same is true in both cases. The detransitioner grifters like Oli London are lying when they claim that gay people become trans to avoid homophobia. Gay people have gained acceptance in society, while transphobia and anti-trans legislation are on the rise. There are factions of gay people who want to exclude trans people from the queer community. It is completely delusional to think that "becoming trans" makes a person's life so much easier.
"A Breif Look?" Is that a way to spell "brief-ish?" I am _so_ out of touch....
Boxer-ish!
My dissertation is due in under 10 hours and I’ve looked at the cass review as part of it. I don’t have time to watch rn bc I have adhd so I’ve left loads of work until the last minute 😃 but in the words of Horton (2024) the cass review is “an exercise is cis-supremacy” !!!
More people need to be talking about this. It's really sad that it's just being accepted uncritically by a lot of people
Cass review or mutilation of children? The review just pointed out the lacking evidence, lack of scientific method and that more research needs to be done until this experiment on children can continue.
@@anttikristian Nice strawman. Minors are not getting gender related surgery. There is already scientific consensus on the efficacy of gender affirming care, so for you to pretend it hasn't already been widely studied is tinfoil territory.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 I think you presented the strawman because they did not claim "minors are getting surgery". That's a red herring from the core of their point.
As for consensus, Dr Steven E. Hyman wisely noted "no one should mistake expert consensus for the truth" because "Without genotypes, objective tests, clues to pathogenesis, and even adequate family and longitudinal studies for most current diagnoses, it was not possible to establish a true empirical base for valid diagnoses in [the DSM]".
People sitting around a table and nodding their heads is not an exercise in rigorous scientific truth seeking. Given that the Cass Review used the existing literature as well as data from the Tavistock and interviews with clinicians and patients, it's reasonably clear that the broader "consensus" isn't particularly meaningful.
More simply put: "Strong recommendations are justified when they are based on high quality evidence. Uncertainty in benefits and harms (that is, low quality evidence) generally leads to weaker recommendations." Anyone making strong recommendations based on a low quality evidence base deserve to be questioned and countered. It's no wonder the Endocrine Society feels threatened by the Cass Review because their strong "consensus-based" recommendations use research that they themselves rate as low and very low quality on the GRADE scale. I certainly wouldn't call such recommendations impartial.
It's an actual sobre and measured examination of this hot potatoe issue.
Is joining the channel the same benefits as the patreon
No, there are loads more over on Patreon
@@SciGuys thank you :)
Great episode >_
Can the merch also be shipped to the Netherlands?
It can!
yay, I'm going to buy stuff
im in Scotland and when i changed my gender marker upon changing it for my passport, this was 8 years ago now i was 16 and i got a new nhs number however they transferred all my details properly and i got letters about a smear test. its shocking how bad everything has gotten. i was 16 but because of the clinic messing up i didn't start testosterone until several months later in the year. i was in the child clinic so got hormones at 16 i started going to the clinic at 15 when i didn't need an adult present (can go to appointments without a guardian from 14), i had socially transitioned with friends and unofficially for quite a few years so i only had to complete some therapy and by the time that was done i only had to change name and live as the gender i identify before getting started on hormones , i did lie about how out i was at this time my mum didn't know but at 16 left school went to collage, changed my name and lives as Danny then started hormones the summer of my 16th year. but wow what a different world it was 8 years ago to now
also hormone blockers werent a thing when i was 11 to 14 i think they only became possible to get when i was about 18 by that time already on cross sex hormones
So you are a guinea-pig for unscientific medical experiment. Grats!
trans person here ! I was referred to a gic at 12 years old (much younger than most people are), hoping that I'd be on hormones by the time I was 16, Im 18 in 3 months and havent even had an initial appointment, the only communication Ive had in 6 years is that I needed to be transferred to an adult wait list! Its absolutely awful, no matter how young you get referred theres such a small chance of you getting an appointment, let alone starting hrt or blockers, before puberty has permenantly changed your body.
That really sucks! I hope you get your appointment soon! 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
I like this new Luke, although I also like the old Luke, so I'm conflicted
Is the new Luke Trans-Luker? They're so convincing! I couldn't tell they weren't biologically Luke! :P
*brief
Just debating someone who claims that children transitioning is an intense intervention done to them and yeah… scary.
It is an intense intervention to their evolvement to adulthood.
@@anttikristian Mind your own business, please. Trans children exist.
I have been watching Scigiys for ages, and I love love love having a science podcast that truly takes an intersectional view on whatever is discussed
Intersectionality as it is forced upon us in society is logically so f'd up that these guys should ve ashamed calling themselves a science podcast
@@anttikristian Educating people about those who are different from you is not forcing it upon you. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
thanks for this ep corry :')
36:21
Please tell me where I can get that tank top
If you check out Noah’s merch store the design might still be available. This is just the tshirt with the arms cut off
@@SciGuys thanks
is the "new" look the guy from the series "the fosters"?
I got referred to the Tavistock at 13. I didn’t see them until I was 14. The first guy I saw there was the guy who coined the term which is basically conversion therapy for trans people (Anastasis Spiliadis). Had therapy for 4 years and got nowhere. Got referred to the GIC about 6 months before my 18th birthday. 42 months later I just had my first appointment at adult services.
My dad read the Cass report and took it to suggest that there wasn’t enough evidence for gender treatment at all and that it should be restricted until you are 25. I couldn’t immediately see this in the Review but I wouldn’t be surprised if it suggested that.
I have waited 42 months for even a chance at care. If that suggestion is put into effect, which both the Tories and Labour said they’ll do, I would have to wait another 42 months for that treatment. I cannot wait another 42 months. And I am saying it now, if the government put that into effect I will be self immolating in front of Downing Street before the day is done.
Do it !
@@JosephJohnston-py7ur If the government implements it. I will
@@yusaki8064 no, you won’t. You are just saying that. You’re just saying that for attention. Like most trans suicide attempts, fake and only intended to get attention
Is that really Luke?
More or less
@@SciGuys Better be 👀3
Is that a Persona 4 tattoo, Corey?
i skipped the last episode coz weed triggers me I MISSED UUU
Bro same! Happy they are back with another topic🤩
help what’s going on with Luke
I honestly don't know if I'm trans or not. I think Im nonbinary maybe? Or demigirl? Idfk
Gently suggest you don't overthink it, the answer will emerge over time.
Nothing wrong with that.
yesssss finally!
It seems strange that you never brought up desistance rates. They're over 50% (extract number depends on study), and that implies we don't have any predictable way of separating trans people from confused people. Shouldn't that be a concern for advocates of puberty blockers?
Can you tell me which study suggests this? Because what I have heard is that the vast majority of those on puberty blockers move on to HRT and rarely desist. Even many conservatives have said this although they use it to claim that puberty blockers is what causes gender dysphoria to continue. Also when I Google it, it says desistance rate is 2-3%.
Yes, you are correct that the vast majority of children put on puberty blockers do not desist. In fact only 1-3% return to their birth sex. However if you look at the children who don't take puberty blockers, 55-85% (depending on study) of children resolve their gender dysphoria while going through puberty.
I have found advocates of puberty blockers generally try to obscure this reality.
@@alexandredesmarais3848
That's true, but only if you look at children taking puberty blockers. If you look at children who don't take puberty blockers 55-85% of them desist during puberty.
I find advocates of puberty blockers obscure this reality.
@@lukebowman1345 Because I don’t know where you saw that but it’s not a reality. The amount of trans young adults and trans teenagers asking for gender affirming care is about the same. If your statistics were true, trans teenagers would greatly outnumber trans adults but they don’t. The percentage of trans people only starts going down significantly for those passed age 25, way after puberty is finished.
@@alexandredesmarais3848
A quick google search for "desistence rates for children with gender disphoria" puts it at 80%.
My real question is why are people so committed to disputing this?
for this to be my first study to participate in, it wasn’t ideal ! 🥲