@@kaiyodei As an autistic person, I'm telling you to go touch some grass, or a dictionary, or take an English/Creative Writing class. You didn't capitalize the 'i' in "I'd" or end the sentence with a period. You also failed to spell neurodivergence. You say you wanna see the science? I wanna see the science of how you determined this group of people as neurodivergent. Oh wait, it was just an idiotic opinion that has no place in actual science because you are blinded by your prejudice. You need to stop identifying as a scientist; that's not a real gender.
Straight, cis, 52 year old mum of a recently out trans boy here! This podcast is SO SO helpful! Thank you! I'm still getting my head around every aspect of what this all means now, still trying to get all the terms and words correct, still learning about this whole thing in full so that I can completely support my kid. Uploads like this (and the videos from Noah, Jammidodger and gorgeous Sam Collins!) are invaluable to me right now. So, it's not just the people who are going through this that are in your audience, parents too (I hope!) are here, soaking up all the information that you're collectively putting out. And this parent is extremely grateful to all of you!! You're helping me to help my child. Thank you. Big love to you all. X
Thank you for being a supportive parent! If your child likes reading I recommend the book "Felix Ever After" by Kacen Callender as it, for at least, shows an accurate representation of a transpersons feelings. The book has been very helpful for me as an 18 year old transmale.
@@whatsmynameagain5052 Proud of my kid, always and forever. Proud of myself? I dunno! I get very frustrated at myself for not taking it all in faster! It's literally second nature now to the Millenials and Zoomers and as a Gen X, I thought I was so bang on up to date and cool in all of my opinions and attitudes! Punk rock, right?! Turns out, I knew very little about any of this, despite my generation having an abundance of LGBTQ+ idols, attitudes and philosophies! There's always room for growth and expanding your knowledge. That's what this is teaching me the most. I love my baby. Girl or boy or anywhere else in this huge umbrella, they are awesome, always have been! I'll be their biggest supporter until the day I die! X
@@annatheresegundersen5120 Just pre ordered the paperback! Thank you for the tip. X (ps - did you see that the film rights to it have already been sold?! That's amazing!)
@@denaroth7296 yeah i know that from german, were every noun is either feminin masculine or neutral (it doesn't even make sense socially alot of the time, cause girl for example is neutral... but i guess that is the "fun" of gramatical gender)
Related to but not specific to a talking point in the pod but I’m intersex(turners syndrome) and non-binary and I’ve joked before that I’m actually cis😂
“Pretty much everyone has a gender except people who don’t “ Thank you for the in-depth explanation 😂 Jokes aside, I’m only a few minutes in, but the color wheel metaphor really helped some things click for me, and I’m absolutely going to steal the book/film sex/gender comparison when explaining in the future
I’m hoping this gets addressed later on & I’m sure it probably will knowing Corry is typically so thorough, but just in case I wanted to address Luke saying that historically gender has been viewed as binary or only man & woman which is just not true. Sure, if you are coming from a perspective of Christianity & colonization, but that is not the only perspective. Many cultures have been inclusive of non-binary identities throughout history & even revered them. For example, Native American tribes historically have respected Two Spirit individuals as leaders, teachers & healers. Transphobia only came to this continent with the white man. Yet another disease they have spread that kills so many POC.
Yes, I also noticed that, thank you for this comment. I think it happend on the expence of our hosts and their modern mostly english speaking "western" audience, they use their "common sence" as the jumping point to understand further from that. They mentioned "other cultures" later in the episode, but you know, like something very Other or rare (no offence to our lovely hosts). But! I also want to add, that even in "western european" countries not that long time ago genders were really not the same as now. For example, a child was precieved as someone genderless up to some age; societal roles were heavily depended on the age, so boy is actually an another gender, not the same as a man. A grandma - is the whole another role, not the same as a married fertile woman, and a not married woman was... I think you got my point! The idea that we can just put everyone in just 2 categories: Man and Woman is veeeery recent, personally I think it's pretty much capitalism and the "western sience" that thied to decrease the number of genders down to 2. And they failed, as we can see now. Colonization had stripped us (as humankind) of so many concepts, that were more inclusive and based on human interractions and experiences (=a little more accurate than "TheRE aRe 2 gEnDersss"), it hurts. And also yes, it killed so many people. So many. I hate it.
@@aliceche714 You’ve got a point, but it kind of plays into the concept of "noble savage", if you know what I mean? It’s not like the western world invented the gender roles as we know them now. (I’m not the one who should speak on this subject tho, as I am white)
@@noname-dk3wi not only that, but, funny enough, this also plays to a binarism of white "bad", native "good". Understanding colonization in s complex way it's important, because at the end of the day we are all descendants of that process
It's not completely true neither in the "western cultures" of Europe, we had traditions of gender non conforming people too, and many queer people were in fact considered a kind of a separate gender because most of the historical definition of gender were based on appereance, more than behaviours, and not considering self-identification. It's just that philosophic view can vary wildly in like 10 centuries, just accounting for middle and modern age, because I hope nobody get taken seriously saying that ancient Greece and Rome are the roots of our tradition on terms of gender and sexuality.
that's not really accurate. the vast majority of societies did have a binary, and the ones that didn't were usually referring to gay people when they had a "third gender." not that nonbinary people didn't exist, it's just that they weren't really viewed as nonbinary like 99% of the time
There are so many good quotes from Corry in this episode such as: "We should use them [labels] to help us understand the world around us and to explain and describe the world around us. But we shouldn't use them to define the world around us."
To refer to a young girl in olden times they would say gay girl, and to refer to a young boy they would say knave girl. Blue also used to be a “girl” color because it has a softer tone, and pink a “boy” color because it has a stronger tone to it.
Actually, pink used to be a boy color since red was the color of the Roman God Mars, who was the God of War. Thus, red was the color of warriors. Boys, who wanted to be warriors but weren't yet, didn't get to wear red, but pink, being a lighter tone of red.
A note on the talk about people not having pronouns at about 9:00 - some people who are non-binary prefer to be referred to as only their name and that is very valid as well!
YES the thing about how gender identity is perception and description of your feelings, not literally your internal sense of being. When I say that to (cis) people, they get mad at me. Even though claiming that being trans is a choice is a little transphobic. The only choice is the words you use. Like my gender is not "trans man." That's a description or label of an experience, not a gender, and also not how I identify. I feel like a biological male, but I took extra steps. I'm just... a guy. I've been getting into phenomenology recently, and it makes things like this make more sense. Like who I am is not defined by someone else's perception, but to them, their perception defines me. IDK if that all made sense. Sometimes people forget that pushing their beliefs about someone else's reality onto that person is uncomfortable no matter how "woke" they're trying to be. Defining someone else's experience for them is not woke. I'm stealth at university and overhearing the things that over enthused cis "allies" say when they think there are no trans people in the room is illuminating. (And invalidating)
Hmm, it makes me think about that painting The Treachery of Images: Ceci n'est pas une gender. "Trans man" is not your gender any more than a picture of a pipe is an actual pipe. Having a picture of a pipe is helpful to imagining a pipe, just as having a word for a gender is helpful to imagine part of a person's experience.
As a native french speaker, I'm always weirded out when I am reminded that other languages don't have gendered nouns. Like I'm fluent in English, so I'm AWARE that they don't, but my brain just puts itself in a weird denial mode where I just kinda assume that in their brains, things also have a gender, they just don't use it in their speech. When native English speakers are confused by the concept of gendered inanimate objects (or concepts or just any noun), it's always wild to me that some people's brains don't have that notion. Just goes to show how much language changes the way your brain works!
My native language is also "gendered" and I also have hard time wrapping my head around it. Like, there's women named Timothy and I'm like wait what, hold on- I have to remind myself that all names in English are, in fact, genderless 😂
Yep my native only has one pronoun and is neutral. My parents find it difficult having to use she/he/them and often misgender bc sometimes they just forget which one is which
Anais Chamignon: Similar here (native German speaker). But I have a contrast to that: In my dialect only humans are gendered ( sometimes inconsistently with their sex (Not talking about identity it is just a grammar feature, having a different "Genus" than in standard German.).
Great episode! As someone who generally considers myself some form of non-binary or gender non-conforming, I quite liked the color analogy, but also offer my own analogy. If the idea of believing in gender is similar to believing in religion, asking me what gender I identify with is similar to asking an atheist what religion they believe in. The atheist acknowledges that other people believe in & follow religions, but they do not believe in one themselves. Similarly, I acknowledge that other people believe in & follow genders, but I don’t believe the concept is helpful or good for society myself.
i agree that the colour analogy was really great, haha! i've always tried to describe it with my hands, and have had trouble putting it into dialogue alone while explaining a spectrum. i've used letters in text to explain, like 'a', 'b', 'c', etc. the colour analogy is way easier i've found and i'd likely never have thought of it. nonetheless, your analogy is as well! it'd certainly help atheists to understand, and likely some of the more accepting of religious people. though, a lot of them are quite closeminded in that sense and would deny that explanation because of the relation to something they disagree with, while colour is fairly universally accepted.
@@gracey.loux. for sure! Although to some extent, I would argue that one also doesn’t 100% choose what they believe. For example, some atheists say they wish they could believe in a god, but it is simply incompatible with their conception of the world. I think at least to some extent, individuals are innately more drawn to or prone to certain thought patterns over others. Of course, one can influence themselves directionally, gather more information, etc, but there is a reason why when 2 people who are presented with the same set of facts in the same way, they draw 2 different conclusions.
words are important. I knew I was asexual the day I learned it was a thing that existed, and finding out about it brought me a lot of relief about being 'taught' gender roles: I'm a preschool teacher and every year I have to teach my 4 year olds that men have eyelashes too. Because they will draw eyelashes on every craft in order to 'make' it a girl
Categories and labels can indeed be both difficult and helpful. I was told by my therapist that the fact that I question a lot of labels we automatically put on people when we meet them, because of assuming (for instance gender, sexuality) makes an open mind, but also a full mind because it takes a lot of brain space. Because it makes a situation/our world less organised and therefore more "messy". Also, what you didn't mention but I think is a upside of labels is being able to find each other. The upside of totally self identifying is really freeing, but I can be hard to find people with similar experiences. Categories help find likeminded people and building community.
And that's why people changing definitions to identify with a word they like instead of one they refuse to accept is annoying bitching happy people and making the group you steel the term to lose their identity
I straight up had no idea what aphantasia was before watching this! Now I know what it is but also that I actually have it lol! Which is strange because I can hear sounds, voices, and music vividly in my head. No pictures only sounds… and darkness
I can attest to leaving a certain field because of the environment. I was in an engineering class in high school where I was the only girl. I was a freshman and it was mostly upperclassman boys. I was mostly just a joke in the class by even the teacher and was preyed on by the boys. It was hard to leave because I enjoyed the things I was learning in class. I just couldn't be bothered to keep going when everyone around me was so awful.
@@Deocake I hated leaving. Thank you for seeing how hard it was. That along with a few other things set me on to spiral with my mental health. Its taken me 8 years to finally dig my way out of the whole high school created but I'm getting there. Its still really unfortunate I couldn't explore my interest in Engineering more though because I felt so unsafe even in a classroom.
I love luke. He is the most honest, 'I am not an expert but love to learn and not afraid of discussions' person there is. Like he is just on a mission to understand everything. Also I love the way he speaks.... I just want to be luke tbh
Definitely a 100 out of 5 star podcast. I can't thank you enough for doing this episode on gender! This is really right in time for my 5-page essay on gender due in May. You are the holy grail of sources. Now I get to pretend to be doing homework while actually doing homework! It couldn't have been better timing.
I'm a cyst female probably as old as most of your mother's. I had very progressive parents, though, and I didn't get gender toys. I got what I wanted to play with, which was mostly science-based and anatomy-based and chemistry-based items. I never thought twice about it until I was about eight, when a girl at my birthday party squealed and said Gross when I unwrapped the human anatomy book I wanted so badly. It made me feel ashamed for being interested in what I was interested in, and that sucks. At least I had my parents there to tell me that what I liked wasn't wrong just because I was born female
I actually did a paper on the medical abuse a lot of intersex kids undergo in high school, unfortunate that Money affected as much as he did because a lot of his work was highly unethical. It’s funny to me that all of you guys have aphantasia because I also realized several months ago I literally can’t visualize at all. And I never recall being able to. I also don’t have any “narrator” or anything which some people seem to have
Oh absolutely - we recorded for 3 hours so didn’t really have time to cover Money much beyond him bringing the term “gender” into scientific papers. Definitely not an endorsement of him or his work!
@@SciGuys I didn’t take it that way but I do appreciate the disclaimer! I think it was still a great episode and I’m glad to have discovered you through Noah’s channel! It just kinda sucks knowing people like Money, Freud, and others had the cultural impact in America where I live, and when it comes to sex and gender when both had some crackpot theories and some of the most unethical practices.
I'm a woman in a highly specialized medical profession who lives in Texas, USA, and I have absolutely experienced sexism and very toxic work relationships at the last two practices I worked at. I ended up taking what would be considered a demotion to work in a practice partnership with another woman and am building out my ability to offer my specialty services here. I honestly wouldn't even live here if it weren't for my family, especially how things have taken a HUGE leap backwards due to Trump culture. Anyway, I'm thoroughly enjoying this podcast.
Hi, I’m an agender person who is experimenting with not using pronouns and I just wanted to clear some things up about people who don’t use pronouns! (Just so you know I’m pretty new to this so not everything here may be completely accurate for others.) It might sound a little strange at first but there are definitely people out there who don’t use pronouns (or at least not pronouns that gender them). Their experiences or preferences with how they handle it might be different then mine but I just want to put this out there! At least for me I use a nickname instead of my full name so it’s less repetitive and flows better when someone’s using it. For example “Z’s done with school for the day, I hope z had a fun time.” would be something someone might say. I also do still use things like I or me when referring to myself. I just don’t use pronouns that refer to myself as a gendered person instead of a non-gendered individual.
Very interesting! And I may say that what do you do is similar to neopronouns, but you have one personal "pronoun" just for yourself and it is Z. There are a lot of neopronouns and they are not gendered in common sence (it's basicly their main purpose), but they are categories and your is just yours - a personal one. And here we should discuss what actually the therm "pronoun" means, because... it's also just a made up linguistic category... Hope I make sence. have a good day!
Sounds great. I would feel way more comfortable in a world addressing everybody without using pronouns. And I‘m always up for a witty nickname. Aren‘t there Asian languages that hardly use any pronouns like Korean, Thai or Japanese?
i recently did an assignment on gender (a question which I chose from a few options) because I thought as a nonbinary person id have some understanding of it already, turns out I just confused myself even more so oops ig
Love this episode. Women in science really resonated with me and everything else helps broaden your mind. I am a female mechanic and everyday you fight for your place, bosses call you the token women or making the HR department happy and although I make less mistakes then my male counterparts, mine are made out to be twice as bad 😤 encouraged to see society progress and we have a way to go in every ism!
1:32:50 you described me man I feel called out lol. I say I'm gay but I'm really bi, but I'm way more gay than I am straight if you get what I mean. Sometimes I describe myself as "almost gay" lol. Also, as an autistic person I have this weird need to know people's sexualities. I dunno if anyone can relate. It's almost like it preps me, like I know this person's boundaries and stuff even if I have no intention of ever asking them out it's like, I just wanna know, it's oddly uncomfortable not knowing. So you don't always ask because you're close to someone or wanna get with them, sometimes you're just curious or compelled to know for no other reason than to know. ^^
I grew up learning English first, but Greek as well from a young age. It was and still is very confusing that in Greek, all items were gendered. We had three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and they were used for things that didnt have gender, like chairs and pencils
My understanding of gendered nouns as someone who has studied Spanish for 12 years (but is still in no way fluent) nouns being gendered isn’t the same concept as people being gendered. In Spanish (and I believe many other languages) gender for nouns simply refers to the ending of the word. Depending on what letters the word ends with will determine the “gender” of the noun and then determine what version of the word “the/a” is used. It doesn’t mean that someone decided that a chair is girly or a hat is manly which is what a lot of people think when they hear languages gender nouns (and why it’s such a confusing topic at first) If we just used a different word besides “gender” to describe the concept of sex/gender identity it would likely be easier to understand gendered nouns for non-gendered language speakers.
@@ianl3350 Maybe. I do not know much of Spanish, but learned Latin and some Italian (I would agree based on these languages.). As native German speaker I can only say that it is just something I know e.g. I am not taking clues by the last letters of "Tisch"( table) to know that its "Genus"; its grammatical gender is male. It can be categorized though as I heard of people who took the effort to learn it. I guess probably it is the same with native speakers of other gendered languages. That they just know intuitively the Genus and themselves are not very aware of endings (or possibly other things) by which you can tell the Genus.
I love how this turned quite quickly from a conversation about scientific things to a philosophical one using examples from science, and then eventually into a blatantly philosophical discussion. Is this always what these podcasts are like? Might need to start watching more :))
The messed up thing is that a lot more women than men get accepted into universities, and if I'm not wrong get their bachelors, but then it shifts. Less women get their masters and even less finish their doctorates, possibly because the as you said the leadership is already more male and those degrees rely a lot more on social relationships than exams and papers.
I think the reason I’m content in the gender I am is that personally, it isn’t a defining factor of who I am. It’s more like I’m just me, but I just happen to be female. That’s what I’m not really clear on, where does one draw the line between personality and gender identity?
Just a note, but intersex people are thought to be about as numerous in society percentage wise as people born with red hair. I’d like someone to let the guy with the red hair know that :) (can’t remember his name, I’m new to this podcast)
I love watching you lot trying to wrap your brains round these topics. Its interesting being familiar with a lot of sociological work on these topics and hear you cover some of the same topics but from a fresh perspective. Same with the philosophical bits. I would love to see guests with areas of expertise like these to see how their perspectives supplement this kind of natural sciences framing that the show usually has.
Love this episode, I did have one objection as a nonbinary genderfuid graph nerd though. I find that its more useful to view Masculinity and femininity as two separate axis on a graph, so that its less like wavelengths moving between red and blue, and more akin to having two light sources one yellow and one blue which vary in intensity. So that makes it even more complicated.
Yeah definitely. There are so many ways to view gender, and even within the non-binary category we don't just see spectra but also axes / dimensions. Other than masculinity and femininity as you said, there's also lackness of gender (agender, greygender...), gender fluidity, etc. And this can also be applied to sexuality.
I do the same sort of thing to get started tearing apart the one-dimensional spectrum that people often have in their heads. For me anyway, it's a lot easier to accept adding third and fourth (and so on) dimensions from there, but I study math for fun so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
This is cool, thanks for giving me this new way of looking at it. It helps pin down why agender and androgynous seem like two very different things to me, despite both being right in the center of the 1D gender spectrum.
While I identify strongly as male and never have I been misgendered, test results always out me as mainly feminine. Apparently, being reasonable and compassionate makes you feminine.
Bro everybody is just trying their best with all of the concepts they have, I'm trying my best to always keep in mind that there is no such thing as completely wrong or right, best way to be open to others
Not really you can easily be right just never on large topics. 2+2 is 4 and that's right just like a word has a definition and that definition is right because those are created not people or other animals wich need a lot of right descriptive claim to brush their surface
@Bokuto’s *thicc* ass Because theres only 2 which are objectively verifiable. All the rest people claim to be is based on nothing but "feelings" ie its completely made up and not based in reality.
Omg the aphantasia thing felt so relatable I never had a word to describe how I was feeling so I couldn't explain it(sorry for the long comment). I remember when I was a kid I would ask my dad how he saw things in his mind, like how did normal people visualize things cause I felt like I was different or something and he basically just told me to stop being a weirdo so I dropped it but it always bothered me😅. Thx this was really helpful, I'm subbing
this was such a great episode! I esp loved the discussion about labels towards the end, because when I got through gender therapy I got diagnosed with the binary diagnosis (we have different ones in sweden ugh), even tho I mostly consider myself non-binary because my experience was very similar to a lot of trans guys.
I think of my own gender as a coordinate plane, titled with the oft asked question, "are you a boy or a girl?" The leftmost point (-) on the x-axis is "boy" and the rightmost point (+) is labeled "girl." Similarly, the bottom (-) of the y-axis is labeled "no" and the top (+) is "yes." I'm somewhere happily in quadrant III (-,-).
A "pure" color comes from one single wavelength of light. But most color samples in the real world are made of things that invoke a combination of several different wavelengths, including wavelengths that are not contiguous with each other, but have gaps which might cross any boundaries. That is, you can't put the spectrum of real-world colors onto a single spectrum, because it's not that simple. There's no reason to think gender issues are any simpler.
i do know other queer nb people who do want to be referred to without pronouns. especially in german, since we don´t have a regularly used version of "they", (there are neopronouns whcih are introduced by queer folx, but are not nown at all in society) so from that perspective it does make sense for nonbinary people, if they wanna avoid getting misgendered, but referring to then without pronouns is really really hard to do.
I did two years of university computer science where the ratio was roughly 1:9 women and men (no data on non-binary people) and while no one was ever outright sexist, there was always this subtle feeling of not being included or taken seriously. I felt like the men amongst eachother had this automatic mutual respect, while I had to prove my capabilities and only then could I gain their respect. I later dropped out, for several reasons, but the atmosphere was one of them. During my time there around half the girls dropped out. What's ironic is that computer work was female dominated for decades, until videogames became popular and suddenly it was cool and the men took over, making the whole industry masculine-coded and really difficult to exist in for women/femme people.
I always think about how interesting it is that people get so hung up on categories and how much tension there is when two people view one thing that's on the cusp of two categories in two different ways, aka blurple. Like, is a hot dog a sandwich, is a cereal a soup? the answer is that there is no soup or sandwich, only things. the words we use to describe them are entirely fake.
1:21:30 in Thai we have 2 words for blue(ฟ้า & น้ำเงิน) 2 for pink(ชมพู & บานเย็น) and 2 for orange(ส้ม & โอรส) and this all are words that we use in general
i study computer science, and at my university they make sure the women end up in the same classes across the subect to let them get to know eachother more easily, as well as arranging socal stuff for only girls, to make sure they want to stay. i was part of it before transitioning
At 34 trans person here realizing I literally grew up with the basic understanding that 'I can't have fun, I can't enjoy myself, I can't be happy', because the things I wanted to do, the things that made me happy had a societal stigma for a 'boy' doing them. How many 'boys' look back at the disappointment of not going to go hang out and go sew with the girls their age?
I'm aware of one public figure who does not use pronouns. Kendriana even posted on Kendriana's story about it specifically telling ppl not to refer to Kendriana with pronouns. Like you said, refering to people only by their name results in extremely long sentences.
oh I've been meaning to check out your podcast for ages! I'm about 10 minutes in and I like the chill, informal atmosphere. it's like we're just hanging out with you guys having a thoughtful conversation. I'm definitely going to be listening to a lot more episodes. :)
I’m autistic and identify as being a girl because people tell me I’m a girl. But there’s a large connection with being trans and autistic, in fact, if you’re trans, you’re 8 times more likely to be autistic. And I think that’s because social constructs don’t come naturally to us so our experiences of gender are different from the rest of society. When I was a kid, I didn’t exactly understand what being a girl or a boy meant (I still don’t tbh), I just didn’t see myself as anything, but as I grew up and began understanding there were certain expectations for each of the binary genders (that I hadn’t been meeting since I was a young child), I began questioning my gender identity. I still don’t understand how all of this works but I don’t think I’m trans because I’m fine with being referred to as a girl, but if I was referred to as a boy or non-binary, I would be fine with that as well (I’m just speaking from my personal experiences, obviously, I can’t speak for every autistic person). But I think it’s interesting to see that a group of people that finds social things difficult to grasp and understand, has a much higher number of gender nonconforming people
Speaking of women not getting as many citations.. I'm someone who is typically read as a 'woman' according to my legal name (which is what I use in publications, at least for the time being, despite identifying and living in my personal life as non binary). I have a publication with a woman, and there were some other folks working on the same subject elsewhere. They cited our results once, and then in all their future publications in the same work, rather than citing our results, they cited their own paper which then cites our results. Over the years, I've noticed more and more that this is a trend, that people tend to cite themselves. I'd be curious to see the study controlled for self-citations. How much is due to biases in citation vs. biases in funding?
I love how this podcast is like Corry is the teacher trying to patiently explain the thing and the others just joke around and distract each other like lil schoolchildren🥰😅
When we talk about categories, the idea of "the map is not the territory" applies. They are simplifications meant to allow us to work more easily with the data, as you said, a lower resolution view of reality.
Both window and dress are neuter in German actually! Unlike French or Spanish, German distinguishes between masculine-feminine and neuter. Interestingly the German word for girl is neuter as well: das Mädchen
in norwegian we refer to nouns and adjectives as either feminine, masculine or neuter. i have a non-binary friend who asked their teacher in 4th grade if its possible to refer to people with the neuter pronouns too, not just objects :')
I just realized I have this “aphantasia” thing, and I asked my mom and she has it too. Are we sure we aren’t the majority? It seems like it would be weird to not have aphantasia, and she’s calling bullshit on it being a trait of only like 2-5% of people.
Congratulatins on 2 years of wonderful work, friends! You're awesome! I think that this red line point adressed in many episodes and explained well in this one - about catigories - is very very very important piece of knowlede to all humans to understand. We should teach it to kids, we should make everyone to understand it. Because the perception of catigories as prescriptions and as something 100% thrue (as the hand IS the moon) causes SOOOO MUCH HARM. So much harm, to individuals and to humankind as whole. Pretty every discussion on any discrimination can be boiled down to this f*n bs. A methaphor: People see the rainbow in the sky, then they want to break it to 6 catigories (in russian it's 7, yes, we have a word for the light blue (and coloquially light blue also means... gay... (do not use it that way it's a bad therm))), and after they break it, they want to believe as there are in reality JUST 6 colours. And they also want to kill you if you not agree on that. I hate it so much! We can use catigories just fine, if everybody are agreed and keeping in mind that they are descriptive, not prescriptive, and also - they're just words. Thank you again! Have a nice week!
I literally do the thing where I call myself gay when I technically consider myself pansexual, and demisexual towards women. I'll vaguely specify if necessary, like I am now, but like, generally I feel like gay is probably more fitting. I feel more of a connection with that concept and the general community, when they're not being a whole ass mess in a manner of ways, but as a whole, that's what I feel most comfortable with. (I feel very similar to Noah in that both terms kinda work, depending on the context.) But depending on the very context, my sexuality category does in fact change. Also I argue with people on the shades and definitions of words all the time. To me, violets and purples are different categories. Just like indigo and blue are different categories/colors. I even had a friend in school who we would see each other and shout "fuschia" and "pink-ish purple" (I was the latter) as a teasing inside joke of sorts because we disagreed on what shade my hair was at the time.
I found your conversation about not having pronouns very interesting. There are very binary languages that just don't have pronouns like they/them to refer to non binary people (like german, or italian). People do still refer to themselves with I and me, but they do use their name to replace a pronoun. It's a bit tricky to get used to speaking about a person just using their name, but it's possible and a way to respect enbies while speaking a very binary language. (Also if you don't know their name, you would use something like "the person", instead of a pronoun. But also there are neo-pronouns, of course. Not trying to say all german enby people say they don't use pronouns.
Swedish also has a special word to refer to someone who's gender you're unsure of. The binary "Han" and "Hon" and the 3rd one which Is "Hen" I don't recommend using it while speaking English however.
Terfs saying they don't have pronouns is ridiculous for obvious reasons, but there are also people that don't like pronouns because maybe their language doesn't have a gender neutral option. For me personally, a non binary person living in Germany where we only have he or she (er oder sie), I'd prefer people not using any of those when referring to me. It takes a bit of practice but after a while you figure it out and it sounds perfectly natural. This can also work if the person you're talking about isn't out yet and you can't use their preferred pronouns. Using this method, you can keep them safe without misgendering them
for me, a portuguese speaker, it still so weird to not have gendered nouns when speaking english. imagine not having to hear only pronouns but literally everything related to you being gendered and btw in portuguese dresses are masculine and pants are feminine
This is so fascinating and it opened my mind that categories are not a thing. And I feel if more people saw this it would open their minds too. Corry you should win a nice gold metal 🏅. I've been really looking to find a video that talks on the subject of gender so than it will be better for people around me to understand that theres more than two genders. This is great and I will definitely will be sharing this thank you 👏.
39:50 LITERALLY we've got boy scouts and girl scouts in my town and when I was little I wanted to be a boy scout because they got to do cool things like camping and learning how to build fires and climb wall and the girl scouts went house to house selling cookies and learning to knit it was so stupid And my dad was mad about it because he thought it was ridiculous for me to be a boy scout even though they were obviously way more fun in my opinion
"there are as many genders as there are people". This is actually such an underrated quote from Corry
@Ethan Horst that's actually incorrect, Google intersex, it's not hard
i'd like to see the science, without neurodirgence behind something like lovecoric gender
@@kaiyodei "neurodirgence"
@@kaiyodei As an autistic person, I'm telling you to go touch some grass, or a dictionary, or take an English/Creative Writing class. You didn't capitalize the 'i' in "I'd" or end the sentence with a period. You also failed to spell neurodivergence. You say you wanna see the science? I wanna see the science of how you determined this group of people as neurodivergent. Oh wait, it was just an idiotic opinion that has no place in actual science because you are blinded by your prejudice. You need to stop identifying as a scientist; that's not a real gender.
@@olivercoulthard5468 intersex is a sex not a gender
Straight, cis, 52 year old mum of a recently out trans boy here! This podcast is SO SO helpful! Thank you! I'm still getting my head around every aspect of what this all means now, still trying to get all the terms and words correct, still learning about this whole thing in full so that I can completely support my kid.
Uploads like this (and the videos from Noah, Jammidodger and gorgeous Sam Collins!) are invaluable to me right now. So, it's not just the people who are going through this that are in your audience, parents too (I hope!) are here, soaking up all the information that you're collectively putting out. And this parent is extremely grateful to all of you!!
You're helping me to help my child. Thank you. Big love to you all. X
Thank you for being a supportive parent! If your child likes reading I recommend the book "Felix Ever After" by Kacen Callender as it, for at least, shows an accurate representation of a transpersons feelings. The book has been very helpful for me as an 18 year old transmale.
@@annatheresegundersen5120 Thank you Anna, I'll have a little Google! X
This is amazing to read, a parent like you should be very proud :)
@@whatsmynameagain5052 Proud of my kid, always and forever. Proud of myself? I dunno! I get very frustrated at myself for not taking it all in faster! It's literally second nature now to the Millenials and Zoomers and as a Gen X, I thought I was so bang on up to date and cool in all of my opinions and attitudes! Punk rock, right?! Turns out, I knew very little about any of this, despite my generation having an abundance of LGBTQ+ idols, attitudes and philosophies! There's always room for growth and expanding your knowledge. That's what this is teaching me the most.
I love my baby. Girl or boy or anywhere else in this huge umbrella, they are awesome, always have been! I'll be their biggest supporter until the day I die! X
@@annatheresegundersen5120 Just pre ordered the paperback! Thank you for the tip. X (ps - did you see that the film rights to it have already been sold?! That's amazing!)
I’m glad my first language is genderless. Just one pronoun for everyone no matter what your gender is
hän is just the best, you don't have to explain yourself to people you don't want to and still be referred to with the right pronouns
What’s your first language?
In Spanish it's all "genderalized" and I hate it so much. (And many latin lenguages too).
@@denaroth7296 yeah i know that from german, were every noun is either feminin masculine or neutral (it doesn't even make sense socially alot of the time, cause girl for example is neutral... but i guess that is the "fun" of gramatical gender)
@@_piano5195 In spanish the "neutral" is the masculine all the time, which is a little strange...
Related to but not specific to a talking point in the pod but I’m intersex(turners syndrome) and non-binary and I’ve joked before that I’m actually cis😂
Well...technically you are 😳
I like that
that's excellent
that took me a second but lmaoo thats amazing
Oh I love that cause u actually are.
The describing "gender" and Non-binary with colour was such an amazing way to do it. Will gladly be using that for now on ☺
Quick Google check: "girl" was originally "gyrle" gender neutral; "young person". Interesting fact.
everybody can be a girlboss now ✋🥵
I'm a gyrle, but not a girl. 🤯
“Pretty much everyone has a gender except people who don’t “
Thank you for the in-depth explanation 😂
Jokes aside, I’m only a few minutes in, but the color wheel metaphor really helped some things click for me, and I’m absolutely going to steal the book/film sex/gender comparison when explaining in the future
I’m hoping this gets addressed later on & I’m sure it probably will knowing Corry is typically so thorough, but just in case I wanted to address Luke saying that historically gender has been viewed as binary or only man & woman which is just not true. Sure, if you are coming from a perspective of Christianity & colonization, but that is not the only perspective. Many cultures have been inclusive of non-binary identities throughout history & even revered them.
For example, Native American tribes historically have respected Two Spirit individuals as leaders, teachers & healers. Transphobia only came to this continent with the white man. Yet another disease they have spread that kills so many POC.
Yes, I also noticed that, thank you for this comment. I think it happend on the expence of our hosts and their modern mostly english speaking "western" audience, they use their "common sence" as the jumping point to understand further from that. They mentioned "other cultures" later in the episode, but you know, like something very Other or rare (no offence to our lovely hosts). But!
I also want to add, that even in "western european" countries not that long time ago genders were really not the same as now. For example, a child was precieved as someone genderless up to some age; societal roles were heavily depended on the age, so boy is actually an another gender, not the same as a man. A grandma - is the whole another role, not the same as a married fertile woman, and a not married woman was... I think you got my point!
The idea that we can just put everyone in just 2 categories: Man and Woman is veeeery recent, personally I think it's pretty much capitalism and the "western sience" that thied to decrease the number of genders down to 2. And they failed, as we can see now.
Colonization had stripped us (as humankind) of so many concepts, that were more inclusive and based on human interractions and experiences (=a little more accurate than "TheRE aRe 2 gEnDersss"), it hurts. And also yes, it killed so many people. So many. I hate it.
@@aliceche714 You’ve got a point, but it kind of plays into the concept of "noble savage", if you know what I mean? It’s not like the western world invented the gender roles as we know them now.
(I’m not the one who should speak on this subject tho, as I am white)
@@noname-dk3wi not only that, but, funny enough, this also plays to a binarism of white "bad", native "good". Understanding colonization in s complex way it's important, because at the end of the day we are all descendants of that process
It's not completely true neither in the "western cultures" of Europe, we had traditions of gender non conforming people too, and many queer people were in fact considered a kind of a separate gender because most of the historical definition of gender were based on appereance, more than behaviours, and not considering self-identification. It's just that philosophic view can vary wildly in like 10 centuries, just accounting for middle and modern age, because I hope nobody get taken seriously saying that ancient Greece and Rome are the roots of our tradition on terms of gender and sexuality.
that's not really accurate. the vast majority of societies did have a binary, and the ones that didn't were usually referring to gay people when they had a "third gender." not that nonbinary people didn't exist, it's just that they weren't really viewed as nonbinary like 99% of the time
There are so many good quotes from Corry in this episode such as: "We should use them [labels] to help us understand the world around us and to explain and describe the world around us. But we shouldn't use them to define the world around us."
To refer to a young girl in olden times they would say gay girl, and to refer to a young boy they would say knave girl. Blue also used to be a “girl” color because it has a softer tone, and pink a “boy” color because it has a stronger tone to it.
back then you could say "im not a girl anymore im a man now" and be cis
Everyone used to wear dresses, all babies wore the same unisex clothing up until the 50s. No one had a problem w/ it then but they do now?? Wack
Actually, pink used to be a boy color since red was the color of the Roman God Mars, who was the God of War. Thus, red was the color of warriors. Boys, who wanted to be warriors but weren't yet, didn't get to wear red, but pink, being a lighter tone of red.
@@HosenDreger I never knew that I just learned that it was because the color seemed stronger. I guess my teacher lied to me.
@@ZiggyStarman There could be multiple reasons.
I'm gonna memorize chunks of this so that I can easily explain concept about gender and categories to different people
If only😔
bitch SAAAAAME
A note on the talk about people not having pronouns at about 9:00 - some people who are non-binary prefer to be referred to as only their name and that is very valid as well!
YES the thing about how gender identity is perception and description of your feelings, not literally your internal sense of being. When I say that to (cis) people, they get mad at me. Even though claiming that being trans is a choice is a little transphobic. The only choice is the words you use. Like my gender is not "trans man." That's a description or label of an experience, not a gender, and also not how I identify. I feel like a biological male, but I took extra steps. I'm just... a guy. I've been getting into phenomenology recently, and it makes things like this make more sense. Like who I am is not defined by someone else's perception, but to them, their perception defines me. IDK if that all made sense. Sometimes people forget that pushing their beliefs about someone else's reality onto that person is uncomfortable no matter how "woke" they're trying to be. Defining someone else's experience for them is not woke.
I'm stealth at university and overhearing the things that over enthused cis "allies" say when they think there are no trans people in the room is illuminating. (And invalidating)
Hmm, it makes me think about that painting The Treachery of Images: Ceci n'est pas une gender. "Trans man" is not your gender any more than a picture of a pipe is an actual pipe. Having a picture of a pipe is helpful to imagining a pipe, just as having a word for a gender is helpful to imagine part of a person's experience.
As a native french speaker, I'm always weirded out when I am reminded that other languages don't have gendered nouns. Like I'm fluent in English, so I'm AWARE that they don't, but my brain just puts itself in a weird denial mode where I just kinda assume that in their brains, things also have a gender, they just don't use it in their speech. When native English speakers are confused by the concept of gendered inanimate objects (or concepts or just any noun), it's always wild to me that some people's brains don't have that notion. Just goes to show how much language changes the way your brain works!
My native language is also "gendered" and I also have hard time wrapping my head around it. Like, there's women named Timothy and I'm like wait what, hold on- I have to remind myself that all names in English are, in fact, genderless 😂
Yep my native only has one pronoun and is neutral. My parents find it difficult having to use she/he/them and often misgender bc sometimes they just forget which one is which
Anais Chamignon: Similar here (native German speaker). But I have a contrast to that: In my dialect only humans are gendered ( sometimes inconsistently with their sex (Not talking about identity it is just a grammar feature, having a different "Genus" than in standard German.).
Great episode! As someone who generally considers myself some form of non-binary or gender non-conforming, I quite liked the color analogy, but also offer my own analogy. If the idea of believing in gender is similar to believing in religion, asking me what gender I identify with is similar to asking an atheist what religion they believe in. The atheist acknowledges that other people believe in & follow religions, but they do not believe in one themselves. Similarly, I acknowledge that other people believe in & follow genders, but I don’t believe the concept is helpful or good for society myself.
i agree that the colour analogy was really great, haha! i've always tried to describe it with my hands, and have had trouble putting it into dialogue alone while explaining a spectrum. i've used letters in text to explain, like 'a', 'b', 'c', etc. the colour analogy is way easier i've found and i'd likely never have thought of it. nonetheless, your analogy is as well! it'd certainly help atheists to understand, and likely some of the more accepting of religious people. though, a lot of them are quite closeminded in that sense and would deny that explanation because of the relation to something they disagree with, while colour is fairly universally accepted.
@@gracey.loux. for sure! Although to some extent, I would argue that one also doesn’t 100% choose what they believe. For example, some atheists say they wish they could believe in a god, but it is simply incompatible with their conception of the world. I think at least to some extent, individuals are innately more drawn to or prone to certain thought patterns over others. Of course, one can influence themselves directionally, gather more information, etc, but there is a reason why when 2 people who are presented with the same set of facts in the same way, they draw 2 different conclusions.
I love the chaos of corry trying to move on the discussion and everyone else talking about seahorses 😂
words are important. I knew I was asexual the day I learned it was a thing that existed, and finding out about it brought me a lot of relief
about being 'taught' gender roles: I'm a preschool teacher and every year I have to teach my 4 year olds that men have eyelashes too. Because they will draw eyelashes on every craft in order to 'make' it a girl
Me: mom i think im a boy.
Mom: why?
Me: *i dont have e y e l a s h e s*
I want to see "The science of Noah's hair". He always has a good hair day
I love Corry just trying to get on with the podcast while everyone else is talking about seahorses
Categories and labels can indeed be both difficult and helpful. I was told by my therapist that the fact that I question a lot of labels we automatically put on people when we meet them, because of assuming (for instance gender, sexuality) makes an open mind, but also a full mind because it takes a lot of brain space. Because it makes a situation/our world less organised and therefore more "messy". Also, what you didn't mention but I think is a upside of labels is being able to find each other. The upside of totally self identifying is really freeing, but I can be hard to find people with similar experiences. Categories help find likeminded people and building community.
And that's why people changing definitions to identify with a word they like instead of one they refuse to accept is annoying bitching happy people and making the group you steel the term to lose their identity
CORRY YOU HAVE APHANTASIA TOO!?
I've just watched a backlog of the vids. I WAS ON A PANEL AT VIDCON LONDON. WHY DIDN'T WE TALK!? HAHAHA
OH SHIIII, LUKE AS WELL!? APHAN CREW!
I straight up had no idea what aphantasia was before watching this! Now I know what it is but also that I actually have it lol! Which is strange because I can hear sounds, voices, and music vividly in my head. No pictures only sounds… and darkness
JAMIE OMG I SEE YOU EVRYWHERE
I'm glad someone did the world health organistation joke. I do it in my head whenever i hear it on the news.
I can attest to leaving a certain field because of the environment. I was in an engineering class in high school where I was the only girl. I was a freshman and it was mostly upperclassman boys. I was mostly just a joke in the class by even the teacher and was preyed on by the boys. It was hard to leave because I enjoyed the things I was learning in class. I just couldn't be bothered to keep going when everyone around me was so awful.
It is abhorrent that they tried, and suceeded, in scaring you out of a field of interest by unequivocally "othering" you. I think I'd be so miserable.
@@Deocake I hated leaving. Thank you for seeing how hard it was. That along with a few other things set me on to spiral with my mental health. Its taken me 8 years to finally dig my way out of the whole high school created but I'm getting there. Its still really unfortunate I couldn't explore my interest in Engineering more though because I felt so unsafe even in a classroom.
I love luke. He is the most honest, 'I am not an expert but love to learn and not afraid of discussions' person there is. Like he is just on a mission to understand everything.
Also I love the way he speaks.... I just want to be luke tbh
Definitely a 100 out of 5 star podcast. I can't thank you enough for doing this episode on gender! This is really right in time for my 5-page essay on gender due in May. You are the holy grail of sources. Now I get to pretend to be doing homework while actually doing homework! It couldn't have been better timing.
I'm a cyst female probably as old as most of your mother's. I had very progressive parents, though, and I didn't get gender toys. I got what I wanted to play with, which was mostly science-based and anatomy-based and chemistry-based items. I never thought twice about it until I was about eight, when a girl at my birthday party squealed and said Gross when I unwrapped the human anatomy book I wanted so badly. It made me feel ashamed for being interested in what I was interested in, and that sucks. At least I had my parents there to tell me that what I liked wasn't wrong just because I was born female
Cis a cyst is not the same thing
I actually did a paper on the medical abuse a lot of intersex kids undergo in high school, unfortunate that Money affected as much as he did because a lot of his work was highly unethical. It’s funny to me that all of you guys have aphantasia because I also realized several months ago I literally can’t visualize at all. And I never recall being able to. I also don’t have any “narrator” or anything which some people seem to have
Oh absolutely - we recorded for 3 hours so didn’t really have time to cover Money much beyond him bringing the term “gender” into scientific papers. Definitely not an endorsement of him or his work!
@@SciGuys I didn’t take it that way but I do appreciate the disclaimer! I think it was still a great episode and I’m glad to have discovered you through Noah’s channel! It just kinda sucks knowing people like Money, Freud, and others had the cultural impact in America where I live, and when it comes to sex and gender when both had some crackpot theories and some of the most unethical practices.
Wait I also have a friend who has aphantasia and no internal monologue. Very interesting.
I'm a woman in a highly specialized medical profession who lives in Texas, USA, and I have absolutely experienced sexism and very toxic work relationships at the last two practices I worked at. I ended up taking what would be considered a demotion to work in a practice partnership with another woman and am building out my ability to offer my specialty services here. I honestly wouldn't even live here if it weren't for my family, especially how things have taken a HUGE leap backwards due to Trump culture. Anyway, I'm thoroughly enjoying this podcast.
Hi, I’m an agender person who is experimenting with not using pronouns and I just wanted to clear some things up about people who don’t use pronouns! (Just so you know I’m pretty new to this so not everything here may be completely accurate for others.)
It might sound a little strange at first but there are definitely people out there who don’t use pronouns (or at least not pronouns that gender them). Their experiences or preferences with how they handle it might be different then mine but I just want to put this out there!
At least for me I use a nickname instead of my full name so it’s less repetitive and flows better when someone’s using it. For example “Z’s done with school for the day, I hope z had a fun time.” would be something someone might say.
I also do still use things like I or me when referring to myself. I just don’t use pronouns that refer to myself as a gendered person instead of a non-gendered individual.
Very interesting! And I may say that what do you do is similar to neopronouns, but you have one personal "pronoun" just for yourself and it is Z. There are a lot of neopronouns and they are not gendered in common sence (it's basicly their main purpose), but they are categories and your is just yours - a personal one. And here we should discuss what actually the therm "pronoun" means, because... it's also just a made up linguistic category...
Hope I make sence. have a good day!
Sounds great. I would feel way more comfortable in a world addressing everybody without using pronouns. And I‘m always up for a witty nickname. Aren‘t there Asian languages that hardly use any pronouns like Korean, Thai or Japanese?
i recently did an assignment on gender (a question which I chose from a few options) because I thought as a nonbinary person id have some understanding of it already, turns out I just confused myself even more so oops ig
going to pretend that this is sociology revision to make myself feel better for not wanting to do any revision 🧚🏻♂️✨
Love this episode. Women in science really resonated with me and everything else helps broaden your mind. I am a female mechanic and everyday you fight for your place, bosses call you the token women or making the HR department happy and although I make less mistakes then my male counterparts, mine are made out to be twice as bad 😤 encouraged to see society progress and we have a way to go in every ism!
i love how Corry is trying to stay on topic while the others are talking about playdoh and seahorse m preg
from someone who speaks portuguese as my main language, it's just so funny seeing them explaining gendered pronouns for some reason lol
Corry´s explanation with the color was so good and helpful. I’ll definitely use that to explain it to people
corry saying " *_bloody_* something" every 10 minutes gives me life
1:32:50 you described me man I feel called out lol. I say I'm gay but I'm really bi, but I'm way more gay than I am straight if you get what I mean. Sometimes I describe myself as "almost gay" lol.
Also, as an autistic person I have this weird need to know people's sexualities. I dunno if anyone can relate. It's almost like it preps me, like I know this person's boundaries and stuff even if I have no intention of ever asking them out it's like, I just wanna know, it's oddly uncomfortable not knowing. So you don't always ask because you're close to someone or wanna get with them, sometimes you're just curious or compelled to know for no other reason than to know. ^^
Gendering nouns - yes. Wow. As an English speaker, this blew my mind when I found out other languages had this. I'm still so confused by this.
As someone who's first language uses grammatical gender: still confused too
I grew up learning English first, but Greek as well from a young age. It was and still is very confusing that in Greek, all items were gendered. We had three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and they were used for things that didnt have gender, like chairs and pencils
My understanding of gendered nouns as someone who has studied Spanish for 12 years (but is still in no way fluent) nouns being gendered isn’t the same concept as people being gendered. In Spanish (and I believe many other languages) gender for nouns simply refers to the ending of the word. Depending on what letters the word ends with will determine the “gender” of the noun and then determine what version of the word “the/a” is used. It doesn’t mean that someone decided that a chair is girly or a hat is manly which is what a lot of people think when they hear languages gender nouns (and why it’s such a confusing topic at first) If we just used a different word besides “gender” to describe the concept of sex/gender identity it would likely be easier to understand gendered nouns for non-gendered language speakers.
French is my first language and I'm non-binary, this is definitely a daily struggle😓
@@ianl3350 Maybe. I do not know much of Spanish, but learned Latin and some Italian (I would agree based on these languages.). As native German speaker I can only say that it is just something I know e.g. I am not taking clues by the last letters of "Tisch"( table) to know that its "Genus"; its grammatical gender is male. It can be categorized though as I heard of people who took the effort to learn it. I guess probably it is the same with native speakers of other gendered languages. That they just know intuitively the Genus and themselves are not very aware of endings (or possibly other things) by which you can tell the Genus.
"blurple all the way down" - such an underrated joke
I love how this turned quite quickly from a conversation about scientific things to a philosophical one using examples from science, and then eventually into a blatantly philosophical discussion. Is this always what these podcasts are like? Might need to start watching more :))
The messed up thing is that a lot more women than men get accepted into universities, and if I'm not wrong get their bachelors, but then it shifts. Less women get their masters and even less finish their doctorates, possibly because the as you said the leadership is already more male and those degrees rely a lot more on social relationships than exams and papers.
I push many things... buttons, luck, friendships.... I can push this too. Congrats on your 2 years guys. Keep it coming.
i love corry
I think the reason I’m content in the gender I am is that personally, it isn’t a defining factor of who I am. It’s more like I’m just me, but I just happen to be female. That’s what I’m not really clear on, where does one draw the line between personality and gender identity?
Just a note, but intersex people are thought to be about as numerous in society percentage wise as people born with red hair. I’d like someone to let the guy with the red hair know that :) (can’t remember his name, I’m new to this podcast)
And most people are never tested so most intersex people will never know
in czech (a gendered language) both dresses and pants have they/them pronouns pass it on.
I love watching you lot trying to wrap your brains round these topics. Its interesting being familiar with a lot of sociological work on these topics and hear you cover some of the same topics but from a fresh perspective. Same with the philosophical bits. I would love to see guests with areas of expertise like these to see how their perspectives supplement this kind of natural sciences framing that the show usually has.
5:18 That is such a good way of explaining it;I mean I would say I would understand ‘all that’ but this just made me understand it so much more.
It’s so weird seeing you guys after listening to your podcast for so long! Keep up the good work!
Love this episode, I did have one objection as a nonbinary genderfuid graph nerd though.
I find that its more useful to view Masculinity and femininity as two separate axis on a graph, so that its less like wavelengths moving between red and blue, and more akin to having two light sources one yellow and one blue which vary in intensity.
So that makes it even more complicated.
love this
Yeah definitely. There are so many ways to view gender, and even within the non-binary category we don't just see spectra but also axes / dimensions. Other than masculinity and femininity as you said, there's also lackness of gender (agender, greygender...), gender fluidity, etc. And this can also be applied to sexuality.
I do the same sort of thing to get started tearing apart the one-dimensional spectrum that people often have in their heads. For me anyway, it's a lot easier to accept adding third and fourth (and so on) dimensions from there, but I study math for fun so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
This is cool, thanks for giving me this new way of looking at it. It helps pin down why agender and androgynous seem like two very different things to me, despite both being right in the center of the 1D gender spectrum.
While I identify strongly as male and never have I been misgendered, test results always out me as mainly feminine. Apparently, being reasonable and compassionate makes you feminine.
This episode was so good. It made me really happy to hear your conversation about this very important topic, you treated it really well.
Luke’s explanation of the graph is spot on and so awesome to hear. I hadn’t thought of it that way but he’s so right!
Corry is the mom friend confirmed 😂 it's like watching someone try to herd cats and somehow succeeding
This show is so important to me. Cory has a great point of view. I'm beginning to understand his points as I listen more often.
Bro everybody is just trying their best with all of the concepts they have, I'm trying my best to always keep in mind that there is no such thing as completely wrong or right, best way to be open to others
Not really you can easily be right just never on large topics. 2+2 is 4 and that's right just like a word has a definition and that definition is right because those are created not people or other animals wich need a lot of right descriptive claim to brush their surface
Transgender was created by Albert Transgender in 1952 when he tried to gay twice at the same time
🎵radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiaaaationn, visible light, ultraviolet, X Rays, Gamma Rayysss🎵
it's so weird when people get mad that there are many genders. like, you're mad that people are diverse???
Objectively, there is 2. Anything else is just pretending.
@Bokuto’s *thicc* ass Because theres only 2 which are objectively verifiable. All the rest people claim to be is based on nothing but "feelings" ie its completely made up and not based in reality.
The current Old patriarchy doesn’t like change.
Omg the aphantasia thing felt so relatable I never had a word to describe how I was feeling so I couldn't explain it(sorry for the long comment). I remember when I was a kid I would ask my dad how he saw things in his mind, like how did normal people visualize things cause I felt like I was different or something and he basically just told me to stop being a weirdo so I dropped it but it always bothered me😅. Thx this was really helpful, I'm subbing
this was such a great episode! I esp loved the discussion about labels towards the end, because when I got through gender therapy I got diagnosed with the binary diagnosis (we have different ones in sweden ugh), even tho I mostly consider myself non-binary because my experience was very similar to a lot of trans guys.
diagnosed with man
@@user-kk6ls8rm4c basically lol
this video blew my mind and also helped me understand my gender more and also made me laugh. love how this podcast just causally changes my life
I think of my own gender as a coordinate plane, titled with the oft asked question, "are you a boy or a girl?" The leftmost point (-) on the x-axis is "boy" and the rightmost point (+) is labeled "girl." Similarly, the bottom (-) of the y-axis is labeled "no" and the top (+) is "yes." I'm somewhere happily in quadrant III (-,-).
"i dont have pronouns, do not refer to me" still goes hard
A "pure" color comes from one single wavelength of light. But most color samples in the real world are made of things that invoke a combination of several different wavelengths, including wavelengths that are not contiguous with each other, but have gaps which might cross any boundaries. That is, you can't put the spectrum of real-world colors onto a single spectrum, because it's not that simple. There's no reason to think gender issues are any simpler.
i do know other queer nb people who do want to be referred to without pronouns. especially in german, since we don´t have a regularly used version of "they", (there are neopronouns whcih are introduced by queer folx, but are not nown at all in society) so from that perspective it does make sense for nonbinary people, if they wanna avoid getting misgendered, but referring to then without pronouns is really really hard to do.
You really hit the nail on the head with explaining Non-Binary in a simplistic way, very cool.
I did two years of university computer science where the ratio was roughly 1:9 women and men (no data on non-binary people) and while no one was ever outright sexist, there was always this subtle feeling of not being included or taken seriously. I felt like the men amongst eachother had this automatic mutual respect, while I had to prove my capabilities and only then could I gain their respect. I later dropped out, for several reasons, but the atmosphere was one of them. During my time there around half the girls dropped out. What's ironic is that computer work was female dominated for decades, until videogames became popular and suddenly it was cool and the men took over, making the whole industry masculine-coded and really difficult to exist in for women/femme people.
I always think about how interesting it is that people get so hung up on categories and how much tension there is when two people view one thing that's on the cusp of two categories in two different ways, aka blurple. Like, is a hot dog a sandwich, is a cereal a soup? the answer is that there is no soup or sandwich, only things. the words we use to describe them are entirely fake.
1:21:30 in Thai we have 2 words for blue(ฟ้า & น้ำเงิน) 2 for pink(ชมพู & บานเย็น) and 2 for orange(ส้ม & โอรส) and this all are words that we use in general
i study computer science, and at my university they make sure the women end up in the same classes across the subect to let them get to know eachother more easily, as well as arranging socal stuff for only girls, to make sure they want to stay. i was part of it before transitioning
just started watching noah, which lead me to corry, which lead me to this; i really love this podcast, you guys talked about this wonderfully:))
At 34 trans person here realizing I literally grew up with the basic understanding that 'I can't have fun, I can't enjoy myself, I can't be happy', because the things I wanted to do, the things that made me happy had a societal stigma for a 'boy' doing them. How many 'boys' look back at the disappointment of not going to go hang out and go sew with the girls their age?
You are a 34 year old essentialist
5:17 genuinely love the way corry explains this
Funny about the play thing cause my son’s favorite toys are the cooking and cleaning sets
I'm aware of one public figure who does not use pronouns. Kendriana even posted on Kendriana's story about it specifically telling ppl not to refer to Kendriana with pronouns. Like you said, refering to people only by their name results in extremely long sentences.
oh I've been meaning to check out your podcast for ages! I'm about 10 minutes in and I like the chill, informal atmosphere. it's like we're just hanging out with you guys having a thoughtful conversation. I'm definitely going to be listening to a lot more episodes. :)
I’m autistic and identify as being a girl because people tell me I’m a girl. But there’s a large connection with being trans and autistic, in fact, if you’re trans, you’re 8 times more likely to be autistic. And I think that’s because social constructs don’t come naturally to us so our experiences of gender are different from the rest of society. When I was a kid, I didn’t exactly understand what being a girl or a boy meant (I still don’t tbh), I just didn’t see myself as anything, but as I grew up and began understanding there were certain expectations for each of the binary genders (that I hadn’t been meeting since I was a young child), I began questioning my gender identity. I still don’t understand how all of this works but I don’t think I’m trans because I’m fine with being referred to as a girl, but if I was referred to as a boy or non-binary, I would be fine with that as well (I’m just speaking from my personal experiences, obviously, I can’t speak for every autistic person). But I think it’s interesting to see that a group of people that finds social things difficult to grasp and understand, has a much higher number of gender nonconforming people
i haven't gotten any of your videos recommended in months ! i'm finally back :)
Speaking of women not getting as many citations.. I'm someone who is typically read as a 'woman' according to my legal name (which is what I use in publications, at least for the time being, despite identifying and living in my personal life as non binary). I have a publication with a woman, and there were some other folks working on the same subject elsewhere. They cited our results once, and then in all their future publications in the same work, rather than citing our results, they cited their own paper which then cites our results. Over the years, I've noticed more and more that this is a trend, that people tend to cite themselves. I'd be curious to see the study controlled for self-citations. How much is due to biases in citation vs. biases in funding?
I love how this podcast is like Corry is the teacher trying to patiently explain the thing and the others just joke around and distract each other like lil schoolchildren🥰😅
This helping me understand alot. This is a topic that I have been struggling and trying to understand for a long time. Thank you.
When we talk about categories, the idea of "the map is not the territory" applies. They are simplifications meant to allow us to work more easily with the data, as you said, a lower resolution view of reality.
Both window and dress are neuter in German actually! Unlike French or Spanish, German distinguishes between masculine-feminine and neuter. Interestingly the German word for girl is neuter as well: das Mädchen
I love this oneeeeeee!! sio much greatnesss here! You guys are so smart with your combacks! ^.^ Love hearing smart people talk
in norwegian we refer to nouns and adjectives as either feminine, masculine or neuter.
i have a non-binary friend who asked their teacher in 4th grade if its possible to refer to people with the neuter pronouns too, not just objects :')
I just realized I have this “aphantasia” thing, and I asked my mom and she has it too. Are we sure we aren’t the majority? It seems like it would be weird to not have aphantasia, and she’s calling bullshit on it being a trait of only like 2-5% of people.
Congratulatins on 2 years of wonderful work, friends! You're awesome!
I think that this red line point adressed in many episodes and explained well in this one - about catigories - is very very very important piece of knowlede to all humans to understand. We should teach it to kids, we should make everyone to understand it. Because the perception of catigories as prescriptions and as something 100% thrue (as the hand IS the moon) causes SOOOO MUCH HARM. So much harm, to individuals and to humankind as whole. Pretty every discussion on any discrimination can be boiled down to this f*n bs. A methaphor: People see the rainbow in the sky, then they want to break it to 6 catigories (in russian it's 7, yes, we have a word for the light blue (and coloquially light blue also means... gay... (do not use it that way it's a bad therm))), and after they break it, they want to believe as there are in reality JUST 6 colours. And they also want to kill you if you not agree on that. I hate it so much!
We can use catigories just fine, if everybody are agreed and keeping in mind that they are descriptive, not prescriptive, and also - they're just words.
Thank you again! Have a nice week!
I literally do the thing where I call myself gay when I technically consider myself pansexual, and demisexual towards women. I'll vaguely specify if necessary, like I am now, but like, generally I feel like gay is probably more fitting. I feel more of a connection with that concept and the general community, when they're not being a whole ass mess in a manner of ways, but as a whole, that's what I feel most comfortable with. (I feel very similar to Noah in that both terms kinda work, depending on the context.)
But depending on the very context, my sexuality category does in fact change.
Also I argue with people on the shades and definitions of words all the time. To me, violets and purples are different categories. Just like indigo and blue are different categories/colors. I even had a friend in school who we would see each other and shout "fuschia" and "pink-ish purple" (I was the latter) as a teasing inside joke of sorts because we disagreed on what shade my hair was at the time.
I really enjoyed this discussion.
H.P Lovecraft's "The Gender From Out of Space"
22:20 😂 I'm laughing out loud in public, love you guys
I found your conversation about not having pronouns very interesting. There are very binary languages that just don't have pronouns like they/them to refer to non binary people (like german, or italian). People do still refer to themselves with I and me, but they do use their name to replace a pronoun. It's a bit tricky to get used to speaking about a person just using their name, but it's possible and a way to respect enbies while speaking a very binary language. (Also if you don't know their name, you would use something like "the person", instead of a pronoun.
But also there are neo-pronouns, of course. Not trying to say all german enby people say they don't use pronouns.
Swedish also has a special word to refer to someone who's gender you're unsure of. The binary "Han" and "Hon" and the 3rd one which Is "Hen" I don't recommend using it while speaking English however.
@@nightfall1249 'hen' is a valid gender neutral option in dutch, but also the word for chicken iirc
The experiment discussion has me cackling.
Terfs saying they don't have pronouns is ridiculous for obvious reasons, but there are also people that don't like pronouns because maybe their language doesn't have a gender neutral option. For me personally, a non binary person living in Germany where we only have he or she (er oder sie), I'd prefer people not using any of those when referring to me. It takes a bit of practice but after a while you figure it out and it sounds perfectly natural.
This can also work if the person you're talking about isn't out yet and you can't use their preferred pronouns. Using this method, you can keep them safe without misgendering them
for me, a portuguese speaker, it still so weird to not have gendered nouns when speaking english. imagine not having to hear only pronouns but literally everything related to you being gendered
and btw in portuguese dresses are masculine and pants are feminine
This is so fascinating and it opened my mind that categories are not a thing. And I feel if more people saw this it would open their minds too. Corry you should win a nice gold metal 🏅. I've been really looking to find a video that talks on the subject of gender so than it will be better for people around me to understand that theres more than two genders. This is great and I will definitely will be sharing this thank you 👏.
Categories are a thing but they are very specific and only to make things clearer
We're gay with too much fashion sense for one gender... Gay but more.. That killed me 😉😉😉
39:50 LITERALLY we've got boy scouts and girl scouts in my town and when I was little I wanted to be a boy scout because they got to do cool things like camping and learning how to build fires and climb wall and the girl scouts went house to house selling cookies and learning to knit it was so stupid
And my dad was mad about it because he thought it was ridiculous for me to be a boy scout even though they were obviously way more fun in my opinion