I feel like many therapists don't even recognize that something is amiss when you have a deeply ingrained fawn response. You look like a people pleaser and pushover, but they think all you need is a bit of encouragement to be more assertive. They don't seem to realize that this can combine with a freeze response, where you literally cannot assert yourself, because the prospect induces such an intense sense of threat that you go into freeze. When you do start breaking through that barrier, all of the suppressed nervous system activation comes through, and you can become extremely dysregulated and overwhelmed by all the anger that you'd had to disconnect from in order to fawn.
I'm wondering how I can change my response the next time my nervous system encounters a threat that would put me into freeze response (speechless, mind-absent). I'm doing daily calming practices, one of them is laughter yoga. If the situation is not dangerous (I don't risk physical harm): How would it be to breathe the stress, the accumulated anger, out loud = laughing, giggling, chuckling, instead of me being speechless and let the aggressive counterpart suck energy (joy) out of me? It is said that laughing is like internal jogging, moves all organs, so maybe, it is potent enough to manage suppressed anger that would pop up when I break through freeze (I would need a flash of inspiration that would wake me out of freeze I can't state into sympathetic glimmer of hope and motivation Yes I can do state). I know all too good from childhood on that acting out anger (crying, sobbing, smashing door, hysterically yelling and feeling victimized helpless) leads to more dysregulation because no one cared how I felt and the more I showed difficult feelings the better they felt it seemed (got laughed out). I as an adult choose from now on a healthy (and independent from others help) option to get out of my nervous system's standard to threats freeze state. Maybe I do have to make a tattoo on my arm to remind myself in this absent-minded state that I now have options to choose from. Like "The more you are in trouble, laugh in double" or "The more you laugh without reason, the more life will give you reasons to laugh.". I envy the type of persons that go into fight state when they encounter threat (like someone touches them without consent) so they are more safe. At a very young age when babies pull on mother's hair, it is vital for the baby to experience its own life force energy and its capability to use it. When this developmental stage was suppressed, the mother felt threatened by the baby ... this is what lead me to freeze response, leaving earth was no option for me even though she wished I wasn't born. Thanks to this nervous system capability I survived extreme years ongoing danger.
This is relevant to me. I realized that I am hyperaware of how to appease other people. I see potential needs and sensibilities and skirt around them, like I'm a mime walking through an invisible maze. I had a history of physical and verbal abuse living with my grandma (who was also physically abused) and although I don't remember specifically trying to appease her, I remember having a better than usual sense of remorse in kindergarten. This makes a lot more sense to me.
Thank you for pursuing such valuable insight into trauma responses, myself a survivor [ orphanage/ abuse /neglect ect] , this resonates as I used my very best coping skills to survive it until I ran away at 15. The gift of hyperawareness has been put to good use later [ lemons into lemonade !]
Interesting. Looking back, I felt I was constantly reading his mood and feelings, his patience and stress level, everything. Sometimes he was wonderful, but sometimes he snapped. I begged my family not to interact with him or answer his calls for many reasons. I felt like I was the only one who could “feel things out” and those things could change in a heartbeat.
The knowing the flip was likely, still took me Years to imagion other systems devoid of rational reflection or logic. I still struggle watching thoughts be Facts that must survive. If there is No one there! You feel responsibility. But actuality is nothing you can give, if you are not respected. You have never been but a thought! Disordered deranged a utility, for being Responsible! You get lost consumed.
I had the same issue with my mom. I always tried to prevent my friends from dealing with her directly because i worried they wouldn't understand her many and changing triggers and moods.
Jaycee Duguard is one of those superhuman hero appeasers. Her positive outlook and amazing ability to survive has always left me speechless- as well as her recovery and moving forward fairly quickly- resorting her relationship with her mother, getting married and just moving forward in a way that I marvel at. I admire her greatly.
Everytime I read a book on how I "should" act or deal with problems during my abusive marriage, i faced a living hell at home. "Bring up issues in a calm respectful manner", "point out troublesome or destructive behaviors ". Nothing in those books prepared me for hell I unleashed for trying to act like a grown up in a marriage. I didn't understand why I couldn't point out problems in a cheerful- let's talk- kind of way. I read all the 1990s marriage books- none of them warned me about abusers. I finally learned to always agree and to always be at fault and apologize for anything g and everything. Nothing worse than someone telling you to stand up for yourself when doing so could get you killed. I'm happy to be safe and out , but I'm incapable of a real relationship now. I can not stop the fawning behavior.
Yup....appeasing is resilience and not everyone can do it, but a purpose of it is to try to guarantee that others can have a better experience. That's been me. It's been harder for me to understand that those who I was trying to make things better for apparently couldn't see at all that that's what this was, and have truly thought and told other people that I really was someone who somehow seemed to agree with the controller. But it's interesting to see that it's noticeable to these researchers that optimism etc. is tied into that...I think I would have noticed a bit of a connection with that given enough time, but I hadn't really before.
Does it come from a physiology of ventral and dorsal - but adaptive to survive? And then resilience emerges from a heightened state together with appeasing (submit)navigating between both? Thank you for this! Polyvagal Theory saved & transformed and continues to bring agency in my life! So grateful.
I had to appease my abusive husband for 20 years and my kids had to as well for emotional mental and ultimately my physical safety. we are out and safe now but I struggle with appeasement vs boundaries in professional and other personal relationships now. how can I stop this trained survival mind set and behaviour? I tend to avoid and isolate instead
My best experience, being a little farther down the road from you maybe, says that it's huge to be able to just say, "this is where I am, and it's okay to be there." Just exhale, and go ahead and avoid and isolate, as often as you need to, for as long as you need to. It's huge to not rush yourself, and to just go against/ignore people who try to tell you you need to be moving faster, or getting over something. No you don't. Just be someone who's been traumatized, and this is basically a medical thing like if you were dealing with getting over surgery, or you knew you would have so many years left to deal with a disease, or something. Take time to just be "sick"/tired/done/alone/doing nothing/etc. It's hard to believe you'll ever not be this way if you don't try to be any different from how you are right now, but there's a chance you will--but you only will once you've been how you are right now for as long as you're going to be. And even if you always are in this place forever from now on, don't listen to people who say there's something wrong with that. They probably don't know anything about being in your situation. You're someone who's actually living it. And you are good enough and it's actually fine enough if you were to be "who you are," exactly how you are right now, the rest of your life. (It may not be what you want or hope for, or it may not be fun or easy, but this is who you are right now, and you don't need to change that.) And then, as they say, when the time is right, and there will probably be multiple times over years, "let yourself get angry." Anger is a sign that something is important, and it's very important that in your past, things weren't how they should be, and you couldn't do things you would have liked to do, and so on. And it's proper to be angry about that. And it's even proper to be angry when you aren't angry, if that's a thing that ever occurs to you and bothers you. It's totally fine to notice when you go ahead and appease in some relationship or setting now, and you're not so happy with yourself about that. You can accept that that's who you are, and not need to be any different, at the same time you're feeling some anger that this is where you are. Just feel it. Just let it be how things are. And you'll probably notice that because you are so expert in these skills, you'll end up acting or reacting in appeasement in certain situations for the rest of your life--and by golly, you do that because it's a great skill you have--this is part of who you are--you're expert at handing situations by responding this way. It's something you took time to hone and achieve, and you're good at it, and apparently not a ton of people are, and there's nothing wrong with you for being someone who's so super able to do this. But the more you simply notice when it happens and you decide you think you want to do it less, over time you'll choose to do something different sometimes.
@@mmkvoe6342 Thank you. I am past half a century in appeasement mode and I've been having a difficult time not going into a self hate spiral when I catch myself sliding back into the old patterns. Your well written comment just handed me a somewhat different angle of view which may just have given me some new insights to handle it better.
@@mmkvoe6342 . I want / need you as a friend ! Most intelligent advice I've ever come across ! It acknowledges that 'the other' may be in intolerable pain - and may have been in that state for decades. 'Society' - on all levels - has not been taught this lesson in empathy and recognition. Publish just this post as a whole book - it is such a worthwhile message, and could save people from vicious and undermining external and internal punitive messages. Thank you.
Thank you Dr Porges, I am wondering what part of the polyvagal nervous system is engaged during the please and appease response? Some people are saying sympathetic, some say it’s a combination of all states. It makes sense that it’s a combo state, would love it fit inside a box!
Abt 3 hrs ago I set up being accessed for CPTSD, In the UK. Outside of universal magic I can't figure a link why now tonight this showing up in my YT feeds just NOW! However the life saving education this man, Levin, Van Der K (?) spelling?, Vadkin and Quora*(social media) woke me up abt 7 yrs Ago!! FYI 2nd Trauma accessment 1st one more traumatizing than seeking confirmation. Age 69 dx Aspergers age 56. Dead/living(?)alive but better by half and far to go! I will will listen again. But Yes strong brave and understanding, nurturing gets rewards VERY HARD won at least I trust at a soul or karmic level?? Not stupid, faithful sincere, got eggs make omelets?
I hate that I do this and I know it’s from trauma. Sometimes all the psychological trauma comes back in weird ways. I guess after decades that might happen to a person.
I think Stephen Porges misrepresents Stockholm syndrome here. From wikipedia, "Stockholm syndrome is a proposed condition or theory that tries to explain why hostages sometimes develop a psychological bond with their captors" It's definitely not just "you've been abducted, and you must have loved the guy." It seems to me that Stockholm syndrome can totally encompass a "skilled neurobiological strategy for survival" - developing a psychological bond with the captor would straightforwardly follow from this.
Listening to this I feel appeasement is getting glorified . This was what millions of codependent women were encouraged in traditional societies by their families . Grin and bear it . I think that is only survival but surely life is more than survival alone???
@ Dr Sandhya Thumsi Kumar . Thanks for raising this. It needs to be part of this conversation. Especially as it is more often than not women who are permanently in appeasement mode... I would love to discuss this further with you - is there a way we could facilitate that ? Best wishes, N
That's definitely a concern to keep an eye on. But i have to say, as someone who struggles with fawning behavior, it is a nice change to hear it talked about positively instead of with shame. I've always felt weak because of it, but looking at it as a survival mechanism reframes it nicely for me.
I feel like many therapists don't even recognize that something is amiss when you have a deeply ingrained fawn response. You look like a people pleaser and pushover, but they think all you need is a bit of encouragement to be more assertive. They don't seem to realize that this can combine with a freeze response, where you literally cannot assert yourself, because the prospect induces such an intense sense of threat that you go into freeze. When you do start breaking through that barrier, all of the suppressed nervous system activation comes through, and you can become extremely dysregulated and overwhelmed by all the anger that you'd had to disconnect from in order to fawn.
🎉🎉🎉absolutely true
And so they label you as crazy. And low self esteem.
I'm wondering how I can change my response the next time my nervous system encounters a threat that would put me into freeze response (speechless, mind-absent). I'm doing daily calming practices, one of them is laughter yoga. If the situation is not dangerous (I don't risk physical harm): How would it be to breathe the stress, the accumulated anger, out loud = laughing, giggling, chuckling, instead of me being speechless and let the aggressive counterpart suck energy (joy) out of me? It is said that laughing is like internal jogging, moves all organs, so maybe, it is potent enough to manage suppressed anger that would pop up when I break through freeze (I would need a flash of inspiration that would wake me out of freeze I can't state into sympathetic glimmer of hope and motivation Yes I can do state).
I know all too good from childhood on that acting out anger (crying, sobbing, smashing door, hysterically yelling and feeling victimized helpless) leads to more dysregulation because no one cared how I felt and the more I showed difficult feelings the better they felt it seemed (got laughed out).
I as an adult choose from now on a healthy (and independent from others help) option to get out of my nervous system's standard to threats freeze state.
Maybe I do have to make a tattoo on my arm to remind myself in this absent-minded state that I now have options to choose from. Like "The more you are in trouble, laugh in double" or "The more you laugh without reason, the more life will give you reasons to laugh.".
I envy the type of persons that go into fight state when they encounter threat (like someone touches them without consent) so they are more safe. At a very young age when babies pull on mother's hair, it is vital for the baby to experience its own life force energy and its capability to use it. When this developmental stage was suppressed, the mother felt threatened by the baby ... this is what lead me to freeze response, leaving earth was no option for me even though she wished I wasn't born. Thanks to this nervous system capability I survived extreme years ongoing danger.
Brilliant understanding of human survival !!!! I’m crying at this moment with relief that I may be ok
This is relevant to me. I realized that I am hyperaware of how to appease other people. I see potential needs and sensibilities and skirt around them, like I'm a mime walking through an invisible maze. I had a history of physical and verbal abuse living with my grandma (who was also physically abused) and although I don't remember specifically trying to appease her, I remember having a better than usual sense of remorse in kindergarten. This makes a lot more sense to me.
God bless you Dr Stephen Porges for all of the work you do.
god bless him 💛
Thank you for pursuing such valuable insight into trauma responses, myself a survivor [ orphanage/ abuse /neglect ect] , this resonates as I used my very best coping skills to survive it until I ran away at 15. The gift of hyperawareness has been put to good use later [ lemons into lemonade !]
What did u do with hyperawarness?
Interesting. Looking back, I felt I was constantly reading his mood and feelings, his patience and stress level, everything. Sometimes he was wonderful, but sometimes he snapped. I begged my family not to interact with him or answer his calls for many reasons. I felt like I was the only one who could “feel things out” and those things could change in a heartbeat.
The knowing the flip was likely, still took me Years to imagion other systems devoid of rational reflection or logic. I still struggle watching thoughts be Facts that must survive.
If there is No one there! You feel responsibility. But actuality is nothing you can give, if you are not respected. You have never been but a thought! Disordered deranged a utility, for being Responsible! You get lost consumed.
I had the same issue with my mom. I always tried to prevent my friends from dealing with her directly because i worried they wouldn't understand her many and changing triggers and moods.
Jaycee Duguard is one of those superhuman hero appeasers.
Her positive outlook and amazing ability to survive has always left me speechless- as well as her recovery and moving forward fairly quickly- resorting her relationship with her mother, getting married and just moving forward in a way that I marvel at.
I admire her greatly.
Thank you for this new angle on the fawning issue. It brings me some more acceptance and kindness to those parts of myself.
Everytime I read a book on how I "should" act or deal with problems during my abusive marriage, i faced a living hell at home. "Bring up issues in a calm respectful manner", "point out troublesome or destructive behaviors ". Nothing in those books prepared me for hell I unleashed for trying to act like a grown up in a marriage. I didn't understand why I couldn't point out problems in a cheerful- let's talk- kind of way. I read all the 1990s marriage books- none of them warned me about abusers. I finally learned to always agree and to always be at fault and apologize for anything g and everything. Nothing worse than someone telling you to stand up for yourself when doing so could get you killed.
I'm happy to be safe and out , but I'm incapable of a real relationship now. I can not stop the fawning behavior.
Yup....appeasing is resilience and not everyone can do it, but a purpose of it is to try to guarantee that others can have a better experience. That's been me. It's been harder for me to understand that those who I was trying to make things better for apparently couldn't see at all that that's what this was, and have truly thought and told other people that I really was someone who somehow seemed to agree with the controller. But it's interesting to see that it's noticeable to these researchers that optimism etc. is tied into that...I think I would have noticed a bit of a connection with that given enough time, but I hadn't really before.
Through a spiritual lens , the interconnection of all people 🙏🏻 perhaps it shows that we are highly evolved
Does it come from a physiology of ventral and dorsal - but adaptive to survive? And then resilience emerges from a heightened state together with appeasing (submit)navigating between both?
Thank you for this! Polyvagal Theory saved & transformed and continues to bring agency in my life! So grateful.
I had to appease my abusive husband for 20 years and my kids had to as well for emotional mental and ultimately my physical safety. we are out and safe now but I struggle with appeasement vs boundaries in professional and other personal relationships now. how can I stop this trained survival mind set and behaviour? I tend to avoid and isolate instead
My best experience, being a little farther down the road from you maybe, says that it's huge to be able to just say, "this is where I am, and it's okay to be there." Just exhale, and go ahead and avoid and isolate, as often as you need to, for as long as you need to. It's huge to not rush yourself, and to just go against/ignore people who try to tell you you need to be moving faster, or getting over something. No you don't. Just be someone who's been traumatized, and this is basically a medical thing like if you were dealing with getting over surgery, or you knew you would have so many years left to deal with a disease, or something. Take time to just be "sick"/tired/done/alone/doing nothing/etc. It's hard to believe you'll ever not be this way if you don't try to be any different from how you are right now, but there's a chance you will--but you only will once you've been how you are right now for as long as you're going to be. And even if you always are in this place forever from now on, don't listen to people who say there's something wrong with that. They probably don't know anything about being in your situation. You're someone who's actually living it. And you are good enough and it's actually fine enough if you were to be "who you are," exactly how you are right now, the rest of your life. (It may not be what you want or hope for, or it may not be fun or easy, but this is who you are right now, and you don't need to change that.)
And then, as they say, when the time is right, and there will probably be multiple times over years, "let yourself get angry." Anger is a sign that something is important, and it's very important that in your past, things weren't how they should be, and you couldn't do things you would have liked to do, and so on. And it's proper to be angry about that. And it's even proper to be angry when you aren't angry, if that's a thing that ever occurs to you and bothers you. It's totally fine to notice when you go ahead and appease in some relationship or setting now, and you're not so happy with yourself about that. You can accept that that's who you are, and not need to be any different, at the same time you're feeling some anger that this is where you are. Just feel it. Just let it be how things are. And you'll probably notice that because you are so expert in these skills, you'll end up acting or reacting in appeasement in certain situations for the rest of your life--and by golly, you do that because it's a great skill you have--this is part of who you are--you're expert at handing situations by responding this way. It's something you took time to hone and achieve, and you're good at it, and apparently not a ton of people are, and there's nothing wrong with you for being someone who's so super able to do this. But the more you simply notice when it happens and you decide you think you want to do it less, over time you'll choose to do something different sometimes.
@@mmkvoe6342 I love all your words
@@mmkvoe6342 👍👍
@@mmkvoe6342 Thank you. I am past half a century in appeasement mode and I've been having a difficult time not going into a self hate spiral when I catch myself sliding back into the old patterns. Your well written comment just handed me a somewhat different angle of view which may just have given me some new insights to handle it better.
@@mmkvoe6342 . I want / need you as a friend ! Most intelligent advice I've ever come across ! It acknowledges that 'the other' may be in intolerable pain - and may have been in that state for decades. 'Society' - on all levels - has not been taught this lesson in empathy and recognition.
Publish just this post as a whole book - it is such a worthwhile message, and could save people from vicious and undermining external and internal punitive messages. Thank you.
Thank you!
Recognizing myself
Grew up appeasing my mother
I deeply relate to this Thank you for your research.
Would love to be able to read this paper.
Thank you Dr Porges, I am wondering what part of the polyvagal nervous system is engaged during the please and appease response? Some people are saying sympathetic, some say it’s a combination of all states. It makes sense that it’s a combo state, would love it fit inside a box!
Abt 3 hrs ago I set up being accessed for CPTSD, In the UK. Outside of universal magic I can't figure a link why now tonight this showing up in my YT feeds just NOW! However the life saving education this man, Levin, Van Der K (?) spelling?, Vadkin and Quora*(social media) woke me up abt 7 yrs Ago!! FYI 2nd Trauma accessment 1st one more traumatizing than seeking confirmation. Age 69 dx Aspergers age 56. Dead/living(?)alive but better by half and far to go!
I will will listen again. But Yes strong brave and understanding, nurturing gets rewards VERY HARD won at least I trust at a soul or karmic level?? Not stupid, faithful sincere, got eggs make omelets?
Absolutely. It is really hard to get out of. Could you recommend some books on this issue?
Thank you.💕
I hate that I do this and I know it’s from trauma. Sometimes all the psychological trauma comes back in weird ways. I guess after decades that might happen to a person.
My parents marriage was super broken and I felt super responsible for keeping the peace and even fixing all of this shit
I think Stephen Porges misrepresents Stockholm syndrome here. From wikipedia, "Stockholm syndrome is a proposed condition or theory that tries to explain why hostages sometimes develop a psychological bond with their captors"
It's definitely not just "you've been abducted, and you must have loved the guy." It seems to me that Stockholm syndrome can totally encompass a "skilled neurobiological strategy for survival" - developing a psychological bond with the captor would straightforwardly follow from this.
Listening to this I feel appeasement is getting glorified .
This was what millions of codependent women were encouraged in traditional societies by their families .
Grin and bear it .
I think that is only survival but surely life is more than survival alone???
I understand it means you use this technique to survive while planning your escape. It is easier to escape if the other person doesn't see it coming.
@ Dr Sandhya Thumsi Kumar . Thanks for raising this. It needs to be part of this conversation. Especially as it is more often than not women who are permanently in appeasement mode... I would love to discuss this further with you - is there a way we could facilitate that ? Best wishes, N
That's definitely a concern to keep an eye on. But i have to say, as someone who struggles with fawning behavior, it is a nice change to hear it talked about positively instead of with shame. I've always felt weak because of it, but looking at it as a survival mechanism reframes it nicely for me.