Thank you for saying that fawning at a young age ,for an emotionally unstable caregiver , was the response of a wise, intelligent child. I felt a great sense of relief and acknowledgment having heard this.😢
I grew up with a terrifying mom and I was also an avid reader. When I’d read stories of protagonists fighting against dangerous antagonists,I could never understand why they didn’t behave with servitude and humility towards the bad guys in order to win them over and protect themselves.
I also grew up w a terrifying adult and my sister asked me very seriously years later why I didn’t just do what my parents wanted but instead screamed, cried and fought them all the way. I just looked at her incredulously.
Ironically I was the one who tried to ease the situation and my sister was the one who refused. I couldn’t understand it either since it just meant that she would get beaten twice as bad. She as a adult said “that the beating would not last long and the mom would feel guilty and buy her things she wanted. There is a four year difference of her being older than me. So besides a personality difference I also believe at five years old I found watching her get beat terrifying and she at nine focused on the reward of mothers guilt.
That's interesting. My older sister by 5 years, fought back against my mother, I watched and decided to be a good girl ( people pleaser). We are both still playing these same roles. I'm 58 years old and my sisters 63. We still don't get along with each other.
Well in the case that u are in TRUE danger, it’s helpful to behave that way and he even said in the video that the shame is a survival mechanism but it’s bad in the long run. The key is to realize that ur every day is not a “dangerous fight or flight survival” day as we have taught to believe. When we feel safe, we are more confident behaving in self respectful and protective ways.
Evil people will not turn good because you re nice to them… they just think you are stupid and a doormat…they pick you because they can manipulate you, people pleasers will NEVER get respected, in general … they attract narcissists
When Rick said: 'first off let me just say your analysis is really excelent and grounded, and it rings true to the heart, we can feel what you're saying. That's really really good.' I think I would cry if my dad would say something like that directly to me. The interactions between you two are beautiful and full of love.
I am 100% a Fawner. It's been the most difficult struggle, I sacrifice what I want for others and even say yes to things that I know will leave me exhausted in order to please others.
I can relate, I find myself still caring about others’ experience and using energy hoping for they are okay or feeling sorry for them from observations that something may have affect their feelings negatively. This is after they have disrespected me a lot and have done very mean things to me.
That idea, that the bank account is empty each day again, is so true for me. I never feel that what I did so far must amount to something for others. I actually forget about the things I already did for others. So, each day I feel required to be nice and helpful and caring again. And I'm so exhausted...
You know being honest is a gift to you and others. Risking not being liked is liberating. Otherwise you pour all your life force into those who take adn never return or think you are OK, when you are empty. You set yourself free, trust that when you are real , reject shaming, cohersion, you are radically rebelling against tyranny, known or known. Break your chains.
I think the contempt comes from the other person being ok with an unfair power dynamic and imbalance. It’s relating predicated upon one person being ok will being the taker ( all the time) and the other being EXPECTED to give.
I was adopted at 3 months in 1960. My parents had adopted my older brother 2 years earlier from a “welfare home” when he was 16 months old. They knew nothing about his life other than that his parents had been married. He and my mother never bonded. He set fires, harmed animals, abused me in every way but my parents blamed everyone else. Although in the home, she told him he was definitely going to prison when he grew up and frequently said “we can send you back” “look what we’ve done for you and this is how you pay us back.” My brother would come into my room and take a toy and threaten to break it or tell me how stupid I was and I would cry then my mother would scream for hours. Sometimes the police were called. I learned to fawn or freeze when yelled things like “what did I ever do, God, to deserve these horrible children, please tell me what I did” She was always angry and my father was gone a total of 5 years before he retired from the Marines when I was 11. Years after my mother died, my father said she had a baby before they married (in the late 1940’s) and gave the child up for adoption. They tried but couldn’t have children and her doctor examined her and said she’d clearly been sterilized after having that child. So much trauma. Thanks for listening.
When you're raised in the environment of people pleasing functioning for survival growing up, it's like a fish not understanding its living in water. When you're literally a fish out of water in other environments that capitalize in a predatory way your fawning survival instincts, there is no thriving. This was a necessary conversation worth the further self examination, but also how society can at all realistically change. Much mahalo for the conversation.
Like so many situations there needs balance. What existed in past survival events now causes pain and disorder embodied into tissues, as well as the story-creating mind. Thank you for such clearly articulated concepts and experiences. Amazing guys!!
Every healing practitioners advice is always, essentially, to be more embodied. PLEASE address the issue of the difficulties encountered when being "embodied" is so terrifying that it feels literally life threatening. Children trained to stay safe by caring for their parents emotional issues can't step out of that paradigm as adults simply because they've now become aware of their fawning. "Awareness" of the issues is simply "awareness" of the issue - it doesn't shift or heal anything. Yes, taking action does - but you have to deal with the terror encountered by that action. There's the rub.
I agree! It’s not one size fits all kinda thing. Some of us need to retreat and be away from activations that stimulate us to further deregulate our nervous system.
Excellent comment. I just wanted to say that awareness always shifts things. Anything you pay attention to will change as a result of your attention. I believe this is a fundamental law of the universe. Awareness is healing on its own.
I agree. It was something that I have struggled with for a long time, and still catch myself in at stressful moments. For years I couldn’t tell what I felt. I also believe that this internalizing caused me serious health problems. If it helps anyone, I’ll share my aha moment: when I was writing my dissertation, she got me to start noticing that my shoulders would go up and I would hold my breath when the evidence did not match the argument I was trying to make. This observation turned out to be really reliable and make the work better. I think, because the observation served the task rather than me directly, it was something I felt incentivized to pay attention to, and to grow the body awareness from there. So, yeah, if it helps anyone else with a fawning response to start with your response to something you care about outside yourself, maybe that’s a way to start? PS my PhD is not in a psych field, so this is a layperson’s opinion.
SAME HERE!!! Im immediately everyone’s best friend, therapist, and hype woman trying to make them comfortable when they haven’t even displayed that they are in any way uncomfortable. It’s exhausting, and I’m resentful. I love deep and hearty Connections but I’ve been working on letting them happen organically, not as a method for immediately disarming people I meet and protecting myself from rejection or them possibly being mean to me etc. It’s a journey.
Thank you for this episode, and highlighting especially the anger associated with the fawn response. I was raised with a mentally ill alcoholic mother and enabling father. We weren't allowed to acknowledge her alcoholism -- we had to keep up "appearances." Part of that was learning to appease our parents by doing physical labour and staying out of their way. Disobedience or expressions of anger were met with physical violence or social isolation. As an adult, I got a job with an abusive boss. I didn't know that my parents had carefully cultivated a fawn response in me. Over the next two years (the most hellish I'd had yet, and I'd had some bad ones), the worst aspect was the unexpressed anger. I didn't even know how much anger I had until a year after I left. I hated that boss. Hated them. But when I was working for them, I thought I liked them. Genuinely had convinced myself they were a decent person. (Spoiler: they weren't!) All because I had been trained not to allow myself to be angry. Now I have retrained myself to examine my emotions and what they're trying to tell me, instead of ignoring or reframing them. Emotions aren't bad. Expressing them healthily isn't bad. They are sign posts to help us navigate the world so we can choose situations and people who are right for us.
Great conversation, thank you! I was raised by a force-of-nature grandiose mother, I was terrified and frozen, and made responsible for her. Then I married a negativistic passive aggressive. I’ve lived my whole life in dysfunction.
Yes, so true. I found open water swimming has helped me a lot, and identifying myself as a (senior) athlete. I also play some piano and so identify myself as a ‘musician’. These ‘identities’ help to set me apart and remove myself from enmeshments. I also divorced my angry husband after 36 years! Woohoo!
You know I'm kind of addicted to your channel. The both of you have such a non-threatening, gentle way of helping me process things, and I really appreciate the both of you more than you will ever know❤
I grew up in a raging, abusive, neglectful, alcoholic family. I was Fight, Flight and Freeze with my alcoholic father. I was Fawn with my codependent, voided out, emotionally unavailable mom. She's 86 now and I'm still Fawn with her.
As a child I was in such panic that I couldn’t read or do math - I was always in remedial class. I was so afraid to make a mistake and be shamed. I’m 65 and I still remember that feeling of my brain just going in circles unable to even think! I eventually managed a masters degree (a miracle) but I still have major procrastination issues and nightmares!
Well done for the masters degree. It sad that other people feel the need to lessen others for whatever reason. Shame … once you have studied what it is and how it is applied … is used frequently , everyday upon many people. And if you’re here to watch this episode people like that just love others who are too polite , that their bad behaviour won’t be called out. One response I have up my sleeve if I feel that an interaction is headed that way is, ‘ I don’t really respond to being shame , thanks anyway.’ I have come close to using it, as surviving a bitter divorce I am no longer interested in conversation that people induce you into… just to result in somehow making you the bad guy. Life is just too short and I really value my down time.
Well done! I struggle with maths, especially in front of people; my brain can't hold the numbers because the anxiety is overpowering. In school I was advised to practise 30mins a day at home. Did my caregivers help me to do this? No. After the meeting with my teacher, in which there was much agreement and nodding, it was never mentioned again. Having low self-esteem, I did not practise, and so my grades turned out poor, which further spiralled me down the drain. Once I got away from my caregivers, and the judgemental atmosphere they created, I obtained a degree. Luckily, I've never had to do maths since.
I love this material, too, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say it is nearly impossible to find a good therapist who is truly informed and experienced like those who create this material who can help people with these issues.
As always, your content resonates and is so enlightening. I'm reminded of two quotes...Sartres opening to No Exit, "Hell is other people." And neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett's often repeated comment, " The worst thing for a human nervous system is another human...and the best thing for a human nervous system is another human. " So much to unpack there! Both are biologically relevant to Stephen Porges' Polyvagal Theory and the biological function of coregulation of nervous systems for social animals. People pleasing was my superpower for most of my life ... I'm 66 and a work in progress! Thank you for all you do!
"Like eating cupcakes all day" - brilliant! Love Rick so much, he's so astute re behaviour. Im a fawner...although an aware fawner and its worked to get me out of some pretty dangerous situations, but good to be aware of it and able to gage when you are defaulting to that behaviour and refrain. Abusive childhoods really do mess us up so hugely.
This made me cry. When my dad died when I was 9, my mom and I moved in with my grandmother and alcoholic aunt. My mom had been a good mom when my dad was alive, but after he died, she became highly volatile, bullying, judgmental, and could fly into rage at any moment. My grandmother and aunt basically resented my being there. I had to speak loudly, clearly, and pleasingly or they would really get on my case. I was trapped in this prison for 8 years. I realize how much this affects my way of being.
that is a very strong idea : establishing your own code for being a good enough human, person !!! what ? deciding for yourself what is good enough !!! I'd like that, yes, thank you so much. yes i did brought my heart in my life, yes i did tried my best, and yes i did learn a lot along the way. being kind and benevolent. thank you so so much.
What a pleasure to tap into such a adroit and fluid conversation on "people pleasing." The rapport between you two is incredible and it really came through! But there i go again! lol
I needed this now more than ever. Thank you so much. I am currently trying to set boubdaries with my family so i can finally find my own autonomy at 33 years old. Its the harest thing ive ever done. Thank you for the information and support. ❤ 🙏
Thank you for this video. I realize I developed this is a parentified child and am glad to see that I've come far in my growth because now I can say no even though it's taken quite a bit of time to be able to do that. I still feel guilty about it, but I can see when I'm doing something to appease rather than because I actually want to. I like coming up with your own "good enough" standards. I tend to use John Wooden's quote, “I coined my own definition of success, which is: peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do the best of which you’re capable. I believe that’s true. If you make the effort to do the best of which you’re capable, to try and improve the situation that exists for you, I think that’s success. And I don’t think others can judge that. I think it’s like character and reputation. Your reputation is what you are perceived to be; your character is what you really are. And I think that character is much more important than what you are perceived to be. You’d hope they’d both be good, but they won’t necessarily be the same. Well, that was my idea that I was going to try to get across to the youngsters.”
I am keyed into this topic and am glad you are doing it. I was so much of a fawned and then I got burnt out in clerical positions people pleasing for so little creative power. Now I’m glad other people are talk about it.
Fawning for me was my way of keeping the peace while I planned my safe escape. However, when I was able to escape, I found I had Stockholm syndrome. It took an hour and help to walk through an open door. But fawning in my opinion kept we alive long enough to get to safety.
My discomfort in witnessing another's problem or suffering does not signify compassion. Often trying to diffuse uncomfortable situations is about preventing oneself from becoming the target. Often it's a reminder of unresolved personal experiences. We miss the real meaning of these agitating events. Absolutely, intervene when harm is being done or comfort is appropriate, but reflect on the intensity of the need to redirect emotion and where it really comes from.
Oldest sister-Fight 2nd oldest sister-Fawn Me-Freeze Younger sister-Flight of course we all have aspects of all but realized we all have a different dominant one.😮
Third son here. Mother is a narcissist. Oldest was fight, middle was flight, I do fawn. I have been so disappointed with mental health professionals who just tell me to stop doing that. I’m like, “that response was pounded into my innate response wiring from the day I was born, until I packed all my possessions and went away to college 6909 days later. Then, 6 years later, married a traumatized, broken, angry woman (oldest child) who relishes a nice loud argument as the best way to handle conflict.” 53 years of living in fear. Yeah, I can just flip a switch and turn that off.
@@LenkaSaratoga I feel like there's alot of passive-aggressivity on the sons part, both of them seem like they have pathological levels of conflict-avoidance. So it really clicked for me when I notice they are indeed parent and child, makes a whole lot of sense now.
You guys are sincerely amazing. Your podcasts/UA-cam series are illuminating and so informative . Having Complex ptsd - I have found my responses in each of the responses you have explained . I've learnt so much from your discussions. Thank you, Thank you. Watching from Australia
I relate to this so much! I've been watching your channel for some time and find the research based knowledge not only incredibly insightful but also the relationship dynamics between you both to be so uplifting and a heart warming model for what I never experienced with either parent. Thank you both ❤❤
After listening to these well researched podcasts I utilize the techniques and come away more grounded and connected to my core. Thank you for all that you do in making this material user friendly for us. I then feel comfortable in sitting with some of the painful feelings brought up and releasing them. 💚to both of you.
Thank you both (and also your partner, Elizabeth!!) for all of these conversations you have and share here. I recently discovered your channel, and what an invaluable resource you are providing for people! So cool. I feel personally supported through listening, and I'm so happy to know I can tune in and also recommend to others.
My life in a nutshell. Thank you both so much for encapsulating the fawn response in a single episode. Just when you think you have sorted yourself out, more layers to the onion emerge! Many blessings! ❤
Thank you so much for doing this series. It's been my favourite so far. I feel like we could talk for a hundred hours about each of these stress responses, but that's just because both of you keep saying such intriguing things! Also thanks for responding to our requests for this video in particular, I'm really impressed by how quickly this episode came out.
I liked this episode and learnt a lot. Interestingly when I try to be more self reliant and individual I feel a deep fear of being lonely. It is a deep deep loneliness which does not seem like a good place to be. Any tips for overcoming that?
Wow, you struck a chord so dynamically balanced. Thank you for this. I feel like I had gone down a rabbit hole following this topic, but I also put rage into art as much as possible. ❤
I was a bit jealous seeing your amazing and informative discussion with your dad. There is so love and respect in your gazes! Thanks for sharing these valuable pieces of information with us. I learned useful things about my dominated response with stress (fawning) and I also enjoyed the conversation.
Crazy how the world works sometimes, this information has been coming into my knowing recently and now watching this clip re affirms everything ive learnt perfectly. One of the best videos ive personally watched. So insightful, healing and practical. Thankyou.
I surely want to watch this episode in free time - yesterday I talked about it with very young man, few days ago with 70 year man, me myself (woman) also discover and take off layers of this people pleasing mode.
Thanks so much for sharing this content. Your description of the origins of fawning were so accurate to my experience with my parents it’s like you were both there. It really contextualized some things hearing it laid out that succinctly. I’ve just recently found your channel and have really appreciated the compassion and depth with which you attend to the subjects at hand, and it’s awesome to see such a great parent/child relationship putting good things out into the world.
The phrase about. Contempt … after all the appeasement… strikes a bell. I hope/ pray my shadow helps my mind stay strong. I’ve seen thru my life my shadow has helped me survive thru much shame even before I acknowledged my darker side. I’ll be able to walk away or say something ! or freeze w dignity .. there is such a thing. Learned it very early. Can make u look stronger in the most horrific of times.
Very informative and helpful; it would certainly be wonderful if there were solutions as the Dr explained regarding relationships issues and fawning, however in the real world there are not many regulated and self aware Other. From my own experience, most of the work lie within knowing and empowering the self… much work but great rewards …
What a great conversation! I found myself registering a LOT of these experiences as my own. You explained so clearly the many reasons why conflict can generate anxiety, and adaptive behaviours like people-pleasing or fawning......which trip us up later in life. Really helpful, Thank You!
Damn. It’s like you made this video after downloading my brain. I fawned with my mother, my husband, now my adult son, who visited me over the weekend and sent me into a tailspin of attempted appeasing and anxiety. Every sentence of this is incredibly valuable.
I remember writing in my morning pages : are you all going to be okay so I can finally be okay that is a underlying feeling, in some place, deep. this really surprised me when it happened, this clear thought about what I was often experiencing. this could be connected to my lungs, I was asthmatic when I was young, I felt overwhelm in some way, short of air, breath... still now but less. some light is coming in, air too ! thank you to you both for putting worlds to "shadow" feelings, obscured feelings.
I fawn at work for fear of being fired, and becoming homeless. The behavior has grown worse over time and has been to my professional, and ironically, financial detriment.
In a dysfunctional family, your worth is never based on who you are. It is 100% on what you do. Win a trophy, get a good grade, be well behaved, give them something to brag about, be perfect...then, you have earned "love." Be anything less than those things, then, you are not worthy of love. There is no being yourself. There is no, you're loved just because you're my kid. No. Love is earned. Everyday. And often, it's not, no matter how hard you try. Like Sisyphus.
This is a fantastic conversation! Thank you! Especially loved Rick’s examples of how to dialogue to request more balance/equality in talking/listening, household chores, etc. But the whole convo too 👍🏼 (Will check out the rest of the series)
I can't thank you enough for this Forrest.The illustration of this syndrome/behavior has been captured beautifully and to me is a huge affirmation of what I've been through. This kinda "workshop" you've presented also includes relatable solutions. It's a keeper that I will revisit again and again. Just a brilliant encyclopedic tool.
Beautiful ❤ could you share personal experiences to illustrate your work in progress? Would be super helpful because we don't see all the questioning & hardship you two (successfully) grapple with. Inspiring 👣👀💯
Thank you for saying that fawning at a young age ,for an emotionally unstable caregiver , was the response of a wise, intelligent child. I felt a great sense of relief and acknowledgment having heard this.😢
Not only wise but strong
Yeah, that is good to hear.
I grew up with a terrifying mom and I was also an avid reader. When I’d read stories of protagonists fighting against dangerous antagonists,I could never understand why they didn’t behave with servitude and humility towards the bad guys in order to win them over and protect themselves.
I also grew up w a terrifying adult and my sister asked me very seriously years later why I didn’t just do what my parents wanted but instead screamed, cried and fought them all the way. I just looked at her incredulously.
Ironically I was the one who tried to ease the situation and my sister was the one who refused. I couldn’t understand it either since it just meant that she would get beaten twice as bad. She as a adult said “that the beating would not last long and the mom would feel guilty and buy her things she wanted.
There is a four year difference of her being older than me. So besides a personality difference I also believe at five years old I found watching her get beat terrifying and she at nine focused on the reward of mothers guilt.
That's interesting. My older sister by 5 years, fought back against my mother, I watched and decided to be a good girl ( people pleaser). We are both still playing these same roles. I'm 58 years old and my sisters 63. We still don't get along with each other.
Well in the case that u are in TRUE danger, it’s helpful to behave that way and he even said in the video that the shame is a survival mechanism but it’s bad in the long run. The key is to realize that ur every day is not a “dangerous fight or flight survival” day as we have taught to believe. When we feel safe, we are more confident behaving in self respectful and protective ways.
Evil people will not turn good because you re nice to them… they just think you are stupid and a doormat…they pick you because they can manipulate you, people pleasers will NEVER get respected, in general … they attract narcissists
When Rick said: 'first off let me just say your analysis is really excelent and grounded, and it rings true to the heart, we can feel what you're saying. That's really really good.' I think I would cry if my dad would say something like that directly to me. The interactions between you two are beautiful and full of love.
I am 100% a Fawner. It's been the most difficult struggle, I sacrifice what I want for others and even say yes to things that I know will leave me exhausted in order to please others.
Right there with u. It's near impossible for me to say no. If I manage to do it one time I cannot do it again
I can relate, I find myself still caring about others’ experience and using energy hoping for they are okay or feeling sorry for them from observations that something may have affect their feelings negatively. This is after they have disrespected me a lot and have done very mean things to me.
Same!
Same here. I feel so guilty when I say no that I end up looking for a way to do what they want.
@@Alicia-ns4cc Ugh, I do the same. I don't like myself when I do that. It feels like I am betraying myself in a way.
That idea, that the bank account is empty each day again, is so true for me. I never feel that what I did so far must amount to something for others. I actually forget about the things I already did for others. So, each day I feel required to be nice and helpful and caring again. And I'm so exhausted...
I have felt the same way! And at the same time I have a guilty feeling that they did all these things for me.. bought gifts etc
You need safe people around you to help you out of those patterns.
You know being honest is a gift to you and others. Risking not being liked is liberating. Otherwise you pour all your life force into those who take adn never return or think you are OK, when you are empty. You set yourself free, trust that when you are real , reject shaming, cohersion, you are radically rebelling against tyranny, known or known. Break your chains.
The shame and contempt association with appeasement behavior. I thought it was just me, but it's a thing!
I think the contempt comes from the other person being ok with an unfair power dynamic and imbalance. It’s relating predicated upon one person being ok will being the taker ( all the time) and the other being EXPECTED to give.
I was adopted at 3 months in 1960. My parents had adopted my older brother 2 years earlier from a “welfare home” when he was 16 months old. They knew nothing about his life other than that his parents had been married. He and my mother never bonded. He set fires, harmed animals, abused me in every way but my parents blamed everyone else. Although in the home, she told him he was definitely going to prison when he grew up and frequently said “we can send you back” “look what we’ve done for you and this is how you pay us back.” My brother would come into my room and take a toy and threaten to break it or tell me how stupid I was and I would cry then my mother would scream for hours. Sometimes the police were called. I learned to fawn or freeze when yelled things like “what did I ever do, God, to deserve these horrible children, please tell me what I did” She was always angry and my father was gone a total of 5 years before he retired from the Marines when I was 11.
Years after my mother died, my father said she had a baby before they married (in the late 1940’s) and gave the child up for adoption. They tried but couldn’t have children and her doctor examined her and said she’d clearly been sterilized after having that child. So much trauma. Thanks for listening.
My heart goes out to you for living with so much emotional chaos.
That is sad and must have been terrifying for you as a child.
So sorry for what you’ve endured. Wishing you healing.
❤
❤
When you're raised in the environment of people pleasing functioning for survival growing up, it's like a fish not understanding its living in water. When you're literally a fish out of water in other environments that capitalize in a predatory way your fawning survival instincts, there is no thriving. This was a necessary conversation worth the further self examination, but also how society can at all realistically change. Much mahalo for the conversation.
Like so many situations there needs balance. What existed in past survival events now causes pain and disorder embodied into tissues, as well as the story-creating mind. Thank you for such clearly articulated concepts and experiences. Amazing guys!!
What is good enough?
✨ Did I bring my heart to it?
✨ Did I try hard?
✨ Did I learn along the way?
Thanks!!
This is now posted on my mirror.
💚
Every healing practitioners advice is always, essentially, to be more embodied. PLEASE address the issue of the difficulties encountered when being "embodied" is so terrifying that it feels literally life threatening. Children trained to stay safe by caring for their parents emotional issues can't step out of that paradigm as adults simply because they've now become aware of their fawning. "Awareness" of the issues is simply "awareness" of the issue - it doesn't shift or heal anything. Yes, taking action does - but you have to deal with the terror encountered by that action. There's the rub.
I agree! It’s not one size fits all kinda thing. Some of us need to retreat and be away from activations that stimulate us to further deregulate our nervous system.
Excellent comment.
I just wanted to say that awareness always shifts things. Anything you pay attention to will change as a result of your attention. I believe this is a fundamental law of the universe. Awareness is healing on its own.
@@HomeFromFarAway My beliefs are healing my cptsd. So is my Awareness.
@@HomeFromFarAway Also I wouldn't necessarily call the Observer Effect a belief, but I did phrase is that way so I wouldn't come across as rude.
I agree. It was something that I have struggled with for a long time, and still catch myself in at stressful moments. For years I couldn’t tell what I felt. I also believe that this internalizing caused me serious health problems.
If it helps anyone, I’ll share my aha moment: when I was writing my dissertation, she got me to start noticing that my shoulders would go up and I would hold my breath when the evidence did not match the argument I was trying to make. This observation turned out to be really reliable and make the work better. I think, because the observation served the task rather than me directly, it was something I felt incentivized to pay attention to, and to grow the body awareness from there. So, yeah, if it helps anyone else with a fawning response to start with your response to something you care about outside yourself, maybe that’s a way to start?
PS my PhD is not in a psych field, so this is a layperson’s opinion.
i dug out: a reflex of turning every interaction into a hearty connection. nothing wrong with hearty coonections but NOT as a relflex out of fear
SAME HERE!!! Im immediately everyone’s best friend, therapist, and hype woman trying to make them comfortable when they haven’t even displayed that they are in any way uncomfortable. It’s exhausting, and I’m resentful. I love deep and hearty Connections but I’ve been working on letting them happen organically, not as a method for immediately disarming people I meet and protecting myself from rejection or them possibly being mean to me etc.
It’s a journey.
Thats a high level of self awareness I wish I had.
39:55 the shadow of shame is rage. I never heard that before
Thank you for this episode, and highlighting especially the anger associated with the fawn response.
I was raised with a mentally ill alcoholic mother and enabling father. We weren't allowed to acknowledge her alcoholism -- we had to keep up "appearances." Part of that was learning to appease our parents by doing physical labour and staying out of their way. Disobedience or expressions of anger were met with physical violence or social isolation.
As an adult, I got a job with an abusive boss. I didn't know that my parents had carefully cultivated a fawn response in me. Over the next two years (the most hellish I'd had yet, and I'd had some bad ones), the worst aspect was the unexpressed anger. I didn't even know how much anger I had until a year after I left. I hated that boss. Hated them. But when I was working for them, I thought I liked them. Genuinely had convinced myself they were a decent person. (Spoiler: they weren't!) All because I had been trained not to allow myself to be angry.
Now I have retrained myself to examine my emotions and what they're trying to tell me, instead of ignoring or reframing them. Emotions aren't bad. Expressing them healthily isn't bad. They are sign posts to help us navigate the world so we can choose situations and people who are right for us.
Great conversation, thank you! I was raised by a force-of-nature grandiose mother, I was terrified and frozen, and made responsible for her. Then I married a negativistic passive aggressive. I’ve lived my whole life in dysfunction.
Broken people find broken people.
Yes, so true. I found open water swimming has helped me a lot, and identifying myself as a (senior) athlete. I also play some piano and so identify myself as a ‘musician’. These ‘identities’ help to set me apart and remove myself from enmeshments. I also divorced my angry husband after 36 years! Woohoo!
You know I'm kind of addicted to your channel. The both of you have such a non-threatening, gentle way of helping me process things, and I really appreciate the both of you more than you will ever know❤
I grew up in a raging, abusive, neglectful, alcoholic family.
I was Fight, Flight and Freeze with my alcoholic father.
I was Fawn with my codependent, voided out, emotionally unavailable mom.
She's 86 now and I'm still Fawn with her.
I am sorry, can relate it.
As a child I was in such panic that I couldn’t read or do math - I was always in remedial class. I was so afraid to make a mistake and be shamed. I’m 65 and I still remember that feeling of my brain just going in circles unable to even think! I eventually managed a masters degree (a miracle) but I still have major procrastination issues and nightmares!
Well done for the masters degree. It sad that other people feel the need to lessen others for whatever reason. Shame … once you have studied what it is and how it is applied … is used frequently , everyday upon many people. And if you’re here to watch this episode people like that just love others who are too polite , that their bad behaviour won’t be called out. One response I have up my sleeve if I feel that an interaction is headed that way is, ‘ I don’t really respond to being shame , thanks anyway.’ I have come close to using it, as surviving a bitter divorce I am no longer interested in conversation that people induce you into… just to result in somehow making you the bad guy. Life is just too short and I really value my down time.
@@sharynmain2432thank you for your thoughtful and kind response!
Well done! I struggle with maths, especially in front of people; my brain can't hold the numbers because the anxiety is overpowering. In school I was advised to practise 30mins a day at home. Did my caregivers help me to do this? No. After the meeting with my teacher, in which there was much agreement and nodding, it was never mentioned again. Having low self-esteem, I did not practise, and so my grades turned out poor, which further spiralled me down the drain. Once I got away from my caregivers, and the judgemental atmosphere they created, I obtained a degree. Luckily, I've never had to do maths since.
I hear this
i know how you feel
I love this material, too, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say it is nearly impossible to find a good therapist who is truly informed and experienced like those who create this material who can help people with these issues.
True.
As always, your content resonates and is so enlightening. I'm reminded of two quotes...Sartres opening to No Exit, "Hell is other people." And neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett's often repeated comment, " The worst thing for a human nervous system is another human...and the best thing for a human nervous system is another human. " So much to unpack there! Both are biologically relevant to Stephen Porges' Polyvagal Theory and the biological function of coregulation of nervous systems for social animals.
People pleasing was my superpower for most of my life ... I'm 66 and a work in progress!
Thank you for all you do!
"Like eating cupcakes all day" - brilliant! Love Rick so much, he's so astute re behaviour. Im a fawner...although an aware fawner and its worked to get me out of some pretty dangerous situations, but good to be aware of it and able to gage when you are defaulting to that behaviour and refrain. Abusive childhoods really do mess us up so hugely.
12:43 thinking on the contempt/shame and resentment building, such an interesting piece of the puzzle.
This made me cry. When my dad died when I was 9, my mom and I moved in with my grandmother and alcoholic aunt. My mom had been a good mom when my dad was alive, but after he died, she became highly volatile, bullying, judgmental, and could fly into rage at any moment. My grandmother and aunt basically resented my being there. I had to speak loudly, clearly, and pleasingly or they would really get on my case. I was trapped in this prison for 8 years. I realize how much this affects my way of being.
that is a very strong idea : establishing your own code for being a good enough human, person !!!
what ? deciding for yourself what is good enough !!!
I'd like that, yes, thank you so much.
yes i did brought my heart in my life, yes i did tried my best, and yes i did learn a lot along the way.
being kind and benevolent.
thank you so so much.
What a pleasure to tap into such a adroit and fluid conversation on "people pleasing." The rapport between you two is incredible and it really came through! But there i go again! lol
I don’t mean to insult or discourage you but that mildly self-deprecating joke was very pleasing 😂
I just love these two. I feel so comforted just having them do these programs to help and so down to earth and empowering. 🙏💖
From all the empathy and understanding in Forrest’s voice, I have empathy for him, for what he may have endured.
I needed this now more than ever. Thank you so much. I am currently trying to set boubdaries with my family so i can finally find my own autonomy at 33 years old. Its the harest thing ive ever done. Thank you for the information and support. ❤ 🙏
Thank you for this video. I realize I developed this is a parentified child and am glad to see that I've come far in my growth because now I can say no even though it's taken quite a bit of time to be able to do that. I still feel guilty about it, but I can see when I'm doing something to appease rather than because I actually want to. I like coming up with your own "good enough" standards. I tend to use John Wooden's quote, “I coined my own definition of success, which is: peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do the best of which you’re capable. I believe that’s true. If you make the effort to do the best of which you’re capable, to try and improve the situation that exists for you, I think that’s success. And I don’t think others can judge that. I think it’s like character and reputation. Your reputation is what you are perceived to be; your character is what you really are. And I think that character is much more important than what you are perceived to be. You’d hope they’d both be good, but they won’t necessarily be the same. Well, that was my idea that I was going to try to get across to the youngsters.”
❤ I needed that quote, thank you
@@danielle.moore.22 you're welcome :)
Wow! An amazing episode. I definitely relate to fawning for survival.
I am keyed into this topic and am glad you are doing it. I was so much of a fawned and then I got burnt out in clerical positions people pleasing for so little creative power. Now I’m glad other people are talk about it.
From bitter experience I have learnt to stop being a people pleaser. Now I just please myself.
Fawning for me was my way of keeping the peace while I planned my safe escape. However, when I was able to escape, I found I had Stockholm syndrome. It took an hour and help to walk through an open door. But fawning in my opinion kept we alive long enough to get to safety.
My discomfort in witnessing another's problem or suffering does not signify compassion.
Often trying to diffuse uncomfortable situations is about preventing oneself from becoming the target. Often it's a reminder of unresolved personal experiences.
We miss the real meaning of these agitating events.
Absolutely, intervene when harm is being done or comfort is appropriate, but reflect on the intensity of the need to redirect emotion and where it really comes from.
I grew up with 3 sisters and it just dawned on me that the 4 of us have a different dominant response. Wow my mind is blown.
Oldest sister-Fight
2nd oldest sister-Fawn
Me-Freeze
Younger sister-Flight
of course we all have aspects of all but realized we all have a different dominant one.😮
If there were only 3 sisters, who is the 4th person you’re talking about … your mom?
I have 3 sisters, I am the 4th child. 4 of us kids total.
That's really neat
Third son here. Mother is a narcissist. Oldest was fight, middle was flight, I do fawn. I have been so disappointed with mental health professionals who just tell me to stop doing that. I’m like, “that response was pounded into my innate response wiring from the day I was born, until I packed all my possessions and went away to college 6909 days later. Then, 6 years later, married a traumatized, broken, angry woman (oldest child) who relishes a nice loud argument as the best way to handle conflict.” 53 years of living in fear. Yeah, I can just flip a switch and turn that off.
Very interesting dynamic between you two.
By the time I realized this is a father and son, things started to make a lot of sense.
What have you noticed in terns of interpersonal dynamic between these two?
@@LenkaSaratoga I feel like there's alot of passive-aggressivity on the sons part, both of them seem like they have pathological levels of conflict-avoidance.
So it really clicked for me when I notice they are indeed parent and child, makes a whole lot of sense now.
@@gaijinyade interesting observarían. Thank you for sharing
Wow. Rick is describing my experiences with friends and family…the shadow aspects being brought to light is helpful.
I'm 31 living with my parents that are exactly as you explained.... I literally can't get out this ... Everything you're saying.... I feel so sick
You guys are sincerely amazing. Your podcasts/UA-cam series are illuminating and so informative . Having Complex ptsd - I have found my responses in each of the responses you have explained . I've learnt so much from your discussions. Thank you, Thank you. Watching from Australia
Thank you for this. I love your conversations and insights. They help me a lot.
Thank you for this wise , practical and helpful content. You're doing something so wonderful and meaningful ❤
Beautiful minds are genuinely healing and helping us humans. Thank you. Love and peace to all
I relate to this so much! I've been watching your channel for some time and find the research based knowledge not only incredibly insightful but also the relationship dynamics between you both to be so uplifting and a heart warming model for what I never experienced with either parent. Thank you both ❤❤
This was clear, involved and yet simple. You do great work. Thank you. ❤😮
I LOVE your podcast, thank you for putting out such great content over and over again!
After listening to these well researched podcasts I utilize the techniques and come away more grounded and connected to my core. Thank you for all that you do in making this material user friendly for us. I then feel comfortable in sitting with some of the painful feelings brought up and releasing them. 💚to both of you.
Thank you both (and also your partner, Elizabeth!!) for all of these conversations you have and share here. I recently discovered your channel, and what an invaluable resource you are providing for people! So cool. I feel personally supported through listening, and I'm so happy to know I can tune in and also recommend to others.
My life in a nutshell. Thank you both so much for encapsulating the fawn response in a single episode. Just when you think you have sorted yourself out, more layers to the onion emerge! Many blessings! ❤
A beautiful informative discussion, giving to the world... thank you both Forest and "Dad." 💯👍
Profoundly insightful and helpful! In so much gratitude to you both!!
Thank you so much for doing this series. It's been my favourite so far. I feel like we could talk for a hundred hours about each of these stress responses, but that's just because both of you keep saying such intriguing things!
Also thanks for responding to our requests for this video in particular, I'm really impressed by how quickly this episode came out.
Very clearly defined with great depth. Excellent. Thank you both.
I liked this episode and learnt a lot. Interestingly when I try to be more self reliant and individual I feel a deep fear of being lonely. It is a deep deep loneliness which does not seem like a good place to be. Any tips for overcoming that?
Wow, you struck a chord so dynamically balanced. Thank you for this. I feel like I had gone down a rabbit hole following this topic, but I also put rage into art as much as possible. ❤
I said no to my family and they kept pushing and I broke down crying and had anxiety episodes for a whole week
I was a bit jealous seeing your amazing and informative discussion with your dad. There is so love and respect in your gazes! Thanks for sharing these valuable pieces of information with us. I learned useful things about my dominated response with stress (fawning) and I also enjoyed the conversation.
Crazy how the world works sometimes, this information has been coming into my knowing recently and now watching this clip re affirms everything ive learnt perfectly. One of the best videos ive personally watched. So insightful, healing and practical. Thankyou.
I surely want to watch this episode in free time - yesterday I talked about it with very young man, few days ago with 70 year man, me myself (woman) also discover and take off layers of this people pleasing mode.
Thanks so much for sharing this content. Your description of the origins of fawning were so accurate to my experience with my parents it’s like you were both there. It really contextualized some things hearing it laid out that succinctly. I’ve just recently found your channel and have really appreciated the compassion and depth with which you attend to the subjects at hand, and it’s awesome to see such a great parent/child relationship putting good things out into the world.
Forrest, can your Dad adopt me? Only kidding, I’m 49 years old. But you are very fortunate, he is so pleasant & kind.
This was the best informative to the point while the dialogue between you both made it so clear. Thank you both.
The phrase about. Contempt … after all the appeasement… strikes a bell. I hope/ pray my shadow helps my mind stay strong. I’ve seen thru my life my shadow has helped me survive thru much shame even before I acknowledged my darker side. I’ll be able to walk away or say something ! or freeze w dignity .. there is such a thing. Learned it very early. Can make u look stronger in the most horrific of times.
Very informative and helpful; it would certainly be wonderful if there were solutions as the Dr explained regarding relationships issues and fawning, however in the real world there are not many regulated and self aware Other. From my own experience, most of the work lie within knowing and empowering the self… much work but great rewards …
Thank you both for all the great content
I find it amusing that UA-cam suggested me this video right after I told my therapist that people-pleasing was what I wanted to work on next.
What a great conversation! I found myself registering a LOT of these experiences as my own. You explained so clearly the many reasons why conflict can generate anxiety, and adaptive behaviours like people-pleasing or fawning......which trip us up later in life. Really helpful,
Thank You!
This should have millions of likes! Super valuable. Thank you
Damn. It’s like you made this video after downloading my brain. I fawned with my mother, my husband, now my adult son, who visited me over the weekend and sent me into a tailspin of attempted appeasing and anxiety.
Every sentence of this is incredibly valuable.
Phrasing suggestions to adjust the one up/down dynamic are great!👍
I remember writing in my morning pages :
are you all going to be okay so I can finally be okay
that is a underlying feeling, in some place, deep.
this really surprised me when it happened, this clear thought about what I was often experiencing.
this could be connected to my lungs, I was asthmatic when I was young, I felt overwhelm in some way, short of air, breath... still now but less.
some light is coming in, air too !
thank you to you both for putting worlds to "shadow" feelings, obscured feelings.
Beautiful comment.
Wonderful! Learned so much! Thanks!
I was Excellent at this! Hard Lesson..but I am Learning! 😊❤
This was great; insightful & useful 🙏 Thank you both
I love the deposit analogy so much. I’ve learnt so much from you both 🙏
I fawn at work for fear of being fired, and becoming homeless. The behavior has grown worse over time and has been to my professional, and ironically, financial detriment.
Found this SO helpful and it clarified so many things for me. Thank you so much 😃
Great episode! Thanks to you both!
This almost brought me to tears. It cut very deep for me. Thank you Forrest and Rick!!!!!
I absolutely love this channel! 👏
In a dysfunctional family, your worth is never based on who you are. It is 100% on what you do. Win a trophy, get a good grade, be well behaved, give them something to brag about, be perfect...then, you have earned "love." Be anything less than those things, then, you are not worthy of love.
There is no being yourself. There is no, you're loved just because you're my kid. No. Love is earned. Everyday.
And often, it's not, no matter how hard you try.
Like Sisyphus.
I think I just realized that my freeze responses to very traumatic situations may have resulted from fawning exhaustion.
I grew up with a narcissistic mother. I just heard about the fawn response recently and realize that this is my go to response with women.
Fantastic series
This is so insightful!!!! Thank you
Thank you both!
This is a fantastic conversation! Thank you! Especially loved Rick’s examples of how to dialogue to request more balance/equality in talking/listening, household chores, etc. But the whole convo too 👍🏼 (Will check out the rest of the series)
Please do a series on being the spouse/partner of people who have these patterns and complex ptsd. Thank you. Love your podcasts!
Algorithm reached me just at the right time!
Excellent thanks very much 😅
I can't thank you enough for this Forrest.The illustration of this syndrome/behavior has been captured beautifully and to me is a huge affirmation of what I've been through. This kinda "workshop" you've presented also includes relatable solutions. It's a keeper that I will revisit again and again.
Just a brilliant encyclopedic tool.
Great episode, thank you!
Thankyou a concept explained that finally helps me understand my responses.
I always find your examples and clear explanations a gift.which I'm most appreciative. No fawning just random facts
What a great episode 🎉 👏🏼 Honestly, I'm not fawning 😆... 💯 I watched it like a really good movie, like: 😲🍿
Beautiful ❤ could you share personal experiences to illustrate your work in progress? Would be super helpful because we don't see all the questioning & hardship you two (successfully) grapple with. Inspiring 👣👀💯
This was a really great episode, thank you for the effort and content really helpful
Wow
This opened my eyes to the source of my anxiety....thank you so much.
Love your kind and smiling eyes
Thanks for this! Yep, hit home. I even sent it on to loved ones to help them understand me better ❤
Excellent
Thank you for posting. Really helped me with a situation I’m dealing with.