@@davyk515 the tadpole just overwrites the existing physiology, so could be that the absence of an existing heart to overwrite necessitated integrating the engine
Well, this is predictably unsettling. I'm glad Larian didn't make them just Karlach, Orpheus, PC, and (Spoiler) in a different body. The mind flayer is the tadpole all grown up, but having taken on the memories and some aspects of its former host. They're typically drones controlled by an elder brain, but without an elder brain, it makes sense that it would take on the former host's dreams, desires, etc, but with its own inborn instincts.
I think the fact that she was essentially allowed to maintain continuity with herself by transforming and remaining alone in her body probably helped a lot as well.
I suspect that this is probably what happens to all illithids that grow up away from the omnipresent controlling psychic presence of an Elder Brain. You're right in that this is not really Karlach; it's an illithid that has all of her memories and seemingly also a lot of Karlach's personality, but without the constant mental presence of the Elder Brain indoctrinating the new mind flayer into traditional illithid society, the new illithid is free to follow its own path in life like any other mortal creature.
@@diomarius7445 the best ending for her right now is to join her in Avernus. The epilogue clearly gives a sign there's a chance for her to upgrade her heart.
Honestly broke my heart. I thought this was the right choice for her but now that we see some of the other options for her endings, this might... be worse than her death, tbh. She is so unsettling. Especially paired with all the comments she makes outside of conversation with her (like, as you roam the party, the comments that appear above the characters' heads) about how she needs to focus and not be tempted to eat everyone's brains and how her old favourite food is totally unappealing now... like bro. bro. no :'(
here is what I understand about mind flayers and this situation. She is dead, the mind flayer is its own separate being that takes on the memories and consequently some of the persons personality. They are not them and will change according to their instincts, the memories they gain, and what they begin to want.
@@cat_astronaut_ My Tav became the Mindflayer and when it gave me the option to end myself I wussed out and picked jail instead. My epilogue was just Withers visiting me in prison and commending me for my sacrifice. How concrete is the lore that a mindflayer is soulless though? Like is it a Tav flavoured husk or is it actually possible that it’s Tav filtered through a Mindflayer’s biology?
@@InigoPhentoya Spoilers: if you choose the “end yourself” ending, in the epilogue you meet a very surprised Jergal, essentially telling you that somehow he still senses a soul in you, and mentions how the world keeps surprising him. So I assume Tav is sort of an exception here, but we don’t know why.
@@twohorsesinamancostume7606 yup. Why I couldn't. Look at the Emperor, and how far he'd fallen. Only echoes of the original, and plenty of justifications for why they aren't that anymore.
@@twohorsesinamancostume7606 soul isn't destroyed, it is sent to outer planes like in case of normal death from cerebral trauma. It can even be resurrected if you have a piece of former body.
@@bengunn9670 the whole point of withers dunking on the dead three is that the mindflayers dont have souls and that by turning people into mindflayers hurts the dead three in the long run. if you talk to Bane via gortash's body, he also says that he knows he wont be getting their souls, but none of the other gods would be getting it either, so Bane considers that a win as he's petty like that. but yeah, soul is destroyed which is why people prefer death than being turned into an illithid.
In my first run i took the transformation myself, because i was roleplaying a gith and also dated Lae'zel, so it was obvious to sacrifice myself and let the Prince of the Comet live to lead the rebellion against Vlaakith's tyranny.
Lore wise this is the best decision. Orpheus is a warmonger and the githyanki’s goal is to dominate every other species. Yes Vlakkath is bad, but Orpheus is no better and arguably a bigger threat since he’s not trying to become a god and instead wants to fulfill his mothers dream of domination.
@@chi7818 not the best one if you roleplay the githyanki gish loyal to her people (people, not Vlaakith) like I did ;) Btw Orpheus is totally different from Vlaakith for one huge reason: in the epilogues he considers peace with githzerai and is sending Lae'zel as an ambassador. Even considering such union is a huge deal, but if it succeeds, imagine what Orpheus could learn from his limbo-dwelling kin. How much potential for new ways and ideas that would broaden the gith culture and change it forever...
@@u1frickb1ack55 the way I see is he plans for an alliance to free githyanki from vlaaktath who is obviously crazy but then would continue in his mothers footsteps to eradicate all illithids then conquer every plane in existence. I doubt he would just let others live and be at peace like the githzerai. Who knows though there is too little information about him
I've played through 4 times, I've never even freed Orpheus, but I've always had the hammer. Karlach has become a mindflayer twice, Emperor ate his brain once, and Tav once.
Unfortunately, Karlach had no good endings, prior to the release of the epilogue. She screams that she doesn't want to die, screams that she *can't* and *won't* go back to Avernus, and then when it is said that someone has to either become a Mind Flayer or let Gale blow himself to smithereens, she volunteers to be the sacrificial lamb whose death will spare the city she loves. As a Good Nature Domain Cleric Tav, I was *deeply* conflicted... but there was nothing "natural" about our predicament, and no solution that could save everyone. Killing Orpheus or letting him turn Illithid meant betraying Lae'zel and her entire race. Becoming Illithid myself and losing my soul wouldn't change the fact that Karlach was doomed, and there was no guarantee that her dying on the Material Plane would keep her soul out of The Hells and Zariel's clutches; she could easily have ended up as a lemure! Blowing up Gale had the same problem, it doesn't prevent Karlach from being stuck as Zariel's possession... But if becoming a Mind Flayer meant the loss of both her body *and* her soul, then there would be nothing left for Zariel to take. The epilogue was released less than 48 hours after I made this difficult choice... and I learned that other Karlachs seem to have survived just fine in Avernus, and to have found hope for a solution, if not a solution in and of itself. When the people of Baldur's Gate build statues of us, may Karlach's be the grandest of them all. She embraced oblivion so that we and the city could live on, all because there was no way for Tav to save her, or help her become more powerful like Gale and Astarion did. Withers... How much gold does a new soul and body cost? 😢
My Tav and Karlach are the love of each others lives. There was no question my Tav was going to go with Karlach to Avernus, so this time she didn’t have to be alone. I also find the ending in this clip unsettling. Karlach has been a kind of emotional support for me during some pretty crappy stuff. Her vivacity and genuine love of life by continually focusing on what is good in it has been hugely helpful for me. I never expected a game to touch me so deeply, but here we are.
In my game, I send karlach with Will to avernus, so she can live and kill some demons. She also mention that found a forge that can male a new heart for her. Is the best ending possible in my opinion
@@VoltageCowboy are you saying Karlach becomes a mind flayer or the Tav? But honestly any ending where any of the companions or the Tav are even a partial ilithid is not a good ending for me. It just feels like a defeat of the original goal to not become one.
I know it's pathetic of me to get attached to a made up character, but Karlach is hands down my favorite BG3 personality. Watching this is oddly painful to me
Nothing pathetic about it. Fictional or not, that character is a depiction of a person. Someone exactly like Karlach, Story, personality and so on wise, is out there, in the real world. In fact, there's probably multiple. There's nothing wrong with being attached to a character. Cause even in fiction, that character is still a person. And their Character - just as strong as a real person.
A reminder that a Mindflayer change is more like a Xenomorph than a vampire/werewolf. This isn't Karlarch, it's the tadpole grown that took said memories. Unless you think something reading your life history and making a copy of it like an A.I. is you even though you're rotting in the ground. Or if you want something more recent. Jarbairn in Elden Ring isn't suddenly Diallos because he filled his pot with his flesh and gains personality traits.
Honestly a better comparison might be Soma. The tadpole was a blank slate ready to devour and download all the data that was a person... but is it really that person? It runs on a different fuel, same as the protagonist in Soma, and something dies or gets left behind when it uploads into a new body
@@josephjackson9679 johnny silverhand if you let him have your body comes to mind. Like, that's not actually johnny, that's just normal v with a REALLY fucked up form of braindamage being piloted like a mech by the nanites in her head to act like Johnny
It's like that hypothetical about teleporting, where you are killed every time you teleport and you basically just make a copy of yourself at your destination
This is like the ship of Theseus. Every mind flayer is a part of the elder brain and ifs not, they take the closest memory at hand = the original host. "she" is all the brains she consumed, but choose Karlach for the main "pilot".
Not quite the ship of Theseus-one large distinction. All has been replaced, yes, except the most vital aspect: the soul. Souls are crucial in the forgotten realms, its who you are
@@LizardOnAMushroom2358During the epilogue, doesn't Withers say that Tav has kept their soul after turning into a Mindflayers (when you kill yourself)?
The frantic hovering over the "Something doesn't sit right with me." option but knowing you can never choose it lest you hurt Karlach. 😂 Felt in my soul. 😂 Though I think the arrangement she mentions is quite interesting. Sure, it's far from happy, but it does open up an interesting perspective for the future. Here's this mindflayer, former hero and soldier, helping people die a less painful death.
You can't exactly hurt Karlach with this dialogue option, as this isn't Karlach. It's the Tadpole that was in her head, that has consumed all of her personality and memories and then became essentially a copy of her. Besides that, Mindflayers are incapable of "feeling" anything anyway, so ther eis nothing to hurt.
@@dmitrisemenoff6455 It's like the ship of Theseus, but with people. If you replace a person's body little by little, are they a different person? If you inevitably reach the point where all the original parts have been replaced/upgraded, are they a different person? We replace our cells all the time. At the end of each year, you are literally a different version of the same person because all your cells from the first day are dead and have been replaced (except for neurons). If Karlach's memories and psyche formed the consciousness of this mindflayer, is Karlach actually dead?
@@TheScottishMutt It's not little by little though. It's a separate being that grows inside her skull until it sheds her body and grows into a full mindflayer. The only part that's still "the same" like the ship of Theseus is her memories.
@@TheScottishMutt It's not at all the same thing though? There is no continuation of consciousness or the self. Karlach dies, something else inherits her memories. Karlach's still dead. If you read someone's biography you don't suddenly become them.
I think this is sweet, in a way?? Not the yknow consumption of brains, but how, we'll call her Tadpole, is trying to just exist as ethically as she can. And she still loves her friends, or else she remembers how Karlach loved them. Even the like bits of ambient dialogue as peopleve said are understandable. Game is good
Yeah, I gotta say that Illithid Karlach's solution for acquiring brains is even more ethical than what I came up with for my headcanon illithid Tav (who romanced Shadowheart and also elected to try and remain Good), which was basically to go "hunting" for Evil humans/humanoids every week or two. There's plenty of Evil organizations and churches to target, like the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Shadow Druids, worshippers of the Dead Three, drow slavers, orc raiders etc. But you're still murdering them for their brains. Karlach's actually let them make a willing choice.
True, sure its not really Karlach anymore. Its a new life with borrowed body/memories. Tho the more unsettling part is besides brain theres high chance the tadpole wont be able to resist its nature. As i dont believe Emperor has good will. At no point does he actually trust us, we were just convenient and he had to hope we dont die on the way while he was too busy subduing Orpheus. Its very very twisted, highly intelligent nature.
@@LooneyClipseI’d argue yes, the emperor wasn’t a “good guy”, but he wasn’t outright evil either, never at any point does he force you to do anything(like becoming a mind flayer etc) and never outright lies to you, he just withholds what he feels like is “unimportant information”, the part with the mind controlled woman feels less intentional(because that’s a bold move for a cautious mindflayer) and more so “oh shit someone found out” moment.
@@Pyrous56 yeah thats the point of "mindflayers have no soul" they are scheming and manipulative and only worry for self preservation. Emperor was different from most mindflayers. And then theres Omelum, imo he understands how feelings should work, same as Emperor being an exception. So they are neither good or evil, but what they are is unreliable if you dont have clear and cut case with no flaws dealing with them. As there is no option ever to convince Emperor to give up Orpheus. Its pure self preservation. Edit: sorry for rant, but forreal they cant be argued from human standpoint. I shall stop there or i will rant a storm about obvious stuff.
@@Pyrous56Eeehh, keep telling him you wont trust him. Especially when he is topless and horny for you. He'll be so pissed he goes "Be glad I was just grooming and gaslighting you, I could easily just mindcontrol you like Stelmane. And quit your purity loving attitude. If you wont eat the Tadpoles I'll just make you eat them!"
This ending for Karlach in my opinion really shows why Ansur reacted the way he did to the Emperor situation. Id imagine the way that Karlach changes being unsettling to us and making us wish we could get the old her back was exactly how he felt. Thats why despite the fact its sad and kind of messed up, i really like the writing of it. Really contextualizes the feelings Ansur must have been going through by making us experience it ourselves with a character alot of people really adore over the course of the adventure.
Omeluum has no idea what to make of these new tadpoles being passed around on the streets. He knows they are magic protected, but the tadpoles themselves are different, and speculates that his species may be evolving.
I almost respect the tadpole for it. Like it knows it isn't Karlach and admits as much, but still tries to preserve the person that it knows others respected a great deal
Technically she isn't. Karlach is dead. This Mindflayer is the Tadpole that was in her head. It consumed all of her personality and memories and than simply "became" that which it has consumed, since there was no Elder Brain to take control. This is essentially just a Mindflayer that *thinks* it is Karlach.
I loaded the epilogue and withers came to visit my squiddy self in jail. Said I did a great job. It’s a weird game ending choice where to give everyone their happiest possible ending I have to give my own character the most tragic one possible. I reloaded and chose to live so I could see the party… but it felt really weird being all coupley with Shadowheart with my expressionless squid face.
Yeah, my first ending I chose to be a mindflayer so laezel and orpheus could save their people and karlach would be unchanged. I also like the idea of everybody getting a happy ending except for the player character who makes the ultimate sacrifice.
That's more or less exactly what it is. I see people saying this is her "good" ending because in tiefling form they had her saying that she really wants it, but after seeing just a few lines of dialogue in this, I can safely say this is like the MOST worst for her. That's absolutely not Mama K anymore.
@@TheCursereaper it isn't. the mind flayer lore clearly states that the person dies as their brain is consumed and replaced by the tadpole, they just have their memories. It's a good ending because Karlach sacrificed herself for the greater good, and she was going to die anyway or forced to go back to avernus. but this is not Karlach, she died.
@@TheCursereaper The best ending is probably where wyll and karlach go to avernus and in the epilogue it’s mentioned that they found a cure for her heart. Orpheus becomes a mindflayer and laezel stays with you If you romanced her. In the epilogue there’s a note from Voss saying that they’re getting closer to githyanki liberation so there’s absolutely no reason for Laezel to go. Orpheus didn’t sacrifice himself for nothing.
@Infiltrator_ I'm SO glad they added that epilogue. Proves that going to Avernus is her good endin 'cause she doesn't have to die. And I do like that Voss can take up the cause but I still let Lae'zel go with them 'cause it just seemed a little selfish at the time to make her stay. Lol
@@TheCursereaper I hope that if there's a DLC, it explores Avernus with Karlach and other companions to fix her heart at Zariel's forge. There are hints of a massive expansion, though nothing is confirmed. If they take that route, it could indicate a canon ending for the game. If you romanced Laezel, she may decide whether to stay or go at the end on her own and I’m pretty sure she stays. It is similar to Shadowheart sparing the night song based on approval when you decide to say nothing and let her make her own decisions.
There is definitely still enough karlach in there for me. The fact that she turned her new dietary requirements into what would make ilmater smile is, so wholesome.
I’m sorry to say this but that’s not karlach, karlach is dead and that’s just the tadpole taking on all of her memories, hopes and dreams, wants and desires, and eventually her personality will fade from the illithid and she will truly be gone
@@Random_Tech-Priest that's just one of many interpretations of the philosophical debate on the nature of consciousness. Simply put in regards to your argument. I don't care.
Its not karlach, its adult tadpole, a mind flayer with borrowed brain. Shes no longer a vessel just a faint memory of a once living person. Idk how people can settle with that.
@@Marxon1134 It's not one argument, it's DnD lore. It's not a ship of thesis philosophy debate. It's her being devoured and the creature that devoured her taking said memories for it's own use. This isn't like vampires or werewolves, where it's still you but altered. It's more like a Xenomorph.
Control freak. Seriously, if you really explore all the dialogue options with the Emperor you discover that while he's not *evil* exactly, he is definitely a calculating game-player type and has no problem maneuvering people around his mental chessboard by his words and deeds. There is no version of his chessboard where freeing Orpheus could possibly work, so he refuses to even consider it. In the end, he demands your trust in him, but cannot give you the same in return.
@@jasonmack760 technically he is because he was the one who told three Chosen ones of Death Gods about Crown of Karsus. He is the one that started it all.
The thought of a once-very-sweet woman becoming a thing that consumes brains and then saying she wouldn’t trade that life for anything is terrifying to me.
I feel like everyone forgot about one thing in regards to Karlach. She’s a hero, and there is no better honor to her than dying young for a cause that she loves, giving her life for Baldur’s gate so that all of her friends and companions she made along the way can live is probably the best ending for her that there is. And besides, I have no doubt that Tav can get their hands on a wish spell at some point in the future, they are *the* Tav after all.
I don't think it's that bad. She's still out there being heroic, keeping Karlach's sense of justice and helping people while also working with the city. Withers says mindflayers don't have souls but it's shown that Tav maintains his soul when he goes to the fugue plane after dying, so he's just wrong. She says she's happy and would rather be this than be dead. The tadpole isn't impersonating her or anything those are karlach's thoughts.
I might be reading too much into it but the way she stumbles or emphasizes “I” when she says it, but “we” always flows so easily. It makes me feel like it’s the Tadpole and Karlach together in there. Piloting the whole thing. I’ve seen the other comments talking about how Karlach can’t exist anymore because of how Mindflayers work, but even so, if she is gone then the Tadpole is trying to keep her alive. Like. This doesn’t read enough as Karlach to be someone properly impersonating her, but there’s still too much of her for the Tadpole to discard her. I think the tadpole at least like. It reads as the tadpole having a great respect for Karlach and wanting to live as Karlach would’ve wanted, as best as they can. Honestly? Kinda vibes as if this Karlach, mindflayer Karlach, is perhaps Karlach III, another daughter in a line with great respect for the Karlach before them (our companion Karlach is Karlach Jr, we find when we see her parents graves and her mother is named Karlach as well). Though all the memories of those she consumes are part of her, this mindflayer choses to follow Karlach as the one to model herself after, to live as she did, and keep the friends Karlach did. Man I’m overthinking this so much now, I’m about to start writing fanfic in this comments section 😂… I’ll have to go write that fic elsewhere now
No I definitely agree with you, you're not overthinking it. Too many people just assume the tadpole to be evil because of it's biology, but in a way, this ending means that even though Karlach is gone, her mark was still left. Even if the tadpole isn't her anymore, it still took on the torch she left (get it) and used her memories as a force for good. Karlach's sacrifice meant the birth of a empathetic and loving Illithid. The only thing worth mourning about death is when it lacks meaning.
I don't know much illithid lore, but I wonder if it's because Karlach III doesn't have an elder brain to control them. If mindflayers are not being commanded and given purpose by the brain, would they have any other wants or desires besides those of the person they took over? Another possible explanation is that Karlach II had a tadpole sitting in her brain for weeks, when normally the tadpole is only there for a few days. Maybe the tadpole was able to absorb more from Karlach II because it spent so much time in her noggin
I love this reading. I feel like there's an additional small moral question the game presents: how can a good (or at least morally neutral) mindflayer sustain themselves? We meet Omeluum in Act 1, and he consumes the brains of the cruel and sadistic in the Underdark, but is seeking effectively a vegan alternative for Illithid society. Between Acts 2 and 3, the Emperor's act fails and we learn he's a mindflayer. He decided to feed on the brains of criminals, or at least who he determined to be such. And now, we have Karlach III, who wraps this quandary up with a neat little bow. She chose to aid the terminally ill in assisted suicide, letting them wrap up their affairs and say their goodbyes before letting their memories live on in her. Rather than seek out the worst of people to sacrifice for her own needs, she found arguably the most humane answer I hadn't even considered. And if someday Omeluum did find a satisfying vegan brain-free diet, I'm sure she'd be open to it.
While Karlach's definitely better off as herself and kicking ass and taking names in the Hells with Tav's and/or Wyll's help, I feel like this isn't completely the worst for a Karlach whose infernal engine hasn't been repaired. The saddest part is that in becoming a Mindflayer, she has died, and her soul has ceased to be. On the bright side, the memories and values that Karlach holds allow her Mindflayer to serve a purpose that is still righteous, in a way. It's bittersweet, but probably better than letting her burn out.
I don't agree that Karlach is "dead" or "soulless" at this point. There's another ending where Withers finds Tav/DUrge's soul if they turn into a Mind Flayer but choose to stab themselves, implying that Mind Flayers may still have souls, at least in the special case of the hero's party.
It seems to be specifically Tav/Durge whose souls he can retrieve and he evern comments on how strange it is. Admittedly it could be any Origin that's being played, but I haven't seen that.
Mind flayers still briefly have souls after transforming (at least in BG3), they're not instantly gone. Orpheus specifically says as much while asking you to kill him Tav/Durge dying before their soul is consumed allows Jergal to find them It's why Karlach is more like herself just after transforming than she is in the epilogue, and it's implied Balduran went through a similar process
I became a Mindflayer because I wanted to see what happens and I had no idea you could ask Karlach to do it. Seeing this, I'm glad I did. At least, as the player character, I keep my humanity and there are plenty of brains to feed off of in Avernus.
I honestly prefer letting her blow up to this. In the epilogue where she's dead, Withers says her soul burns so bright in the fugue plane it hurts even the gods to look at, and I like to imagine this means she'll get kicked out for being too wholesome to judge into any afterlife. My headcanon is that every single outer plane rejects her soul and that she just pops back to life as if nothing happened 😭 let me dream
In my first playthrough, I had Karlach go back to Avernus with Wyll and I thought it was a decent outcome for them. Seeing her in this state just breaks my heart. I almost went this route but I’m glad I didn’t.
Ceremorphosis isn't the person evolving or transforming. It's the tadpole absorbing the host so they can burst out and take their new form. In this case, it's like a mind flayer dipped in Karlach seasoning. It has her flavour but is absolutely not her. 😢
This is by far the worst fate for Karlach, everything she wanted to avoid. Not dead, not in Avernus fighting for a cure, but stripped entirely of her personality. Karlach is gone in this ending.
@@calebh4442 Karlach has an intelligence of 8. She heard "We need someone to do this", knew she wanted to die anyway but doesn't comprehend the consequences. The consequence that there will be nothing left of Karlach but a soulless puppet speaking in her voice. She just wanted to go out a hero, but if she saw herself like this she'd get sick.
In this ending, Karlach is dead. She died when she transformed. The tabpole consumed her memory and her personality. It is unclear if the tadpole thinks it is actually Karlach or want to convince you it is Karlach, but in either way, that's not her. That isn't to say that Illithid Karlach is evil. She helped save the world, does seem to be a good person and we've seen mind flayers free of an Elder Brain be good people elsewhere in the Forgotten Realms. Not just BG3 either, since we can actually meet an Illithid healer in BG2.
an interesting end for a person who was unable to have physical contact with another - to be able to live the lives she was not able to have herself, remotely. That's very very coded.
Yep. It's not only death in body, but death of the soul. As far as I understood it, illithyds had souls in the old, pre-5 lore. But the soul of larva was eating the host's soul in the transformation.
Karlach doesn't have any right choice. Either she dies, goes back to hell or forces the sacrifice of the only person capable of saving an entire species from their tyrannical ruler. I personally found that beautiful, the only thing you can give Karlach is a choice, not a happy ending.
@@felicianofrontado3134 I’d say that with the new epilogue having her jump into avernus with Wyll and/or You is her best option. She’s gonna have a friend down there this time. By the time the party happens 6 months have passed. Since the ending, in that small amount of time the Avernus gang has found a map to blueprints of an upgraded heart that could help Karlach. She’d only have to be in avernus for just under a year pretty much.
@@felicianofrontado3134 wrong, epilogue shows she's pretty content with you (or Wyll) in Avernus and eager to find the solution for her heart. The only thing she could not take is being ALONE in Avernus.
I decided to become a mind flayer myself and save everybody the trouble. Thinking to myself, Karlach (romanced) is dying so I might as well go out myself in a "heroic" sacrifice of itself. Then to my surprise Karlach accepted my offer for the 3 of us (Wyll, her and I) to go back to Avernus and find hope there for a future together. The ending itself is VERY holeful for a cure for Karlach's condition. Very cool for Wyll, who despite losing his powers would still be a fearsome opponent for Avernus (we saved his father and told fk u to Mizora). But im most happy to have succeded my ConstitutionCheck, to be sure NOT TO eat Wyll's brain during the post-game festivities. I was very dreaded of what could happen. Still a bit sad Karlach not has an Illithid for a boyfriend but oh well, we make things work I guess?
She is she. A change in the chemistry of the body does not go unnoticed in the psyche, but here is a complete change in all systems. Of course she changes. And i love her in this body too. SPOILER In the other ending, where Tav/Durdgeflayer end themselves, they rise in deathland and meet suprised Withers. Why Karlach, who went through the same ceromorphose procedure as our hero and have strong soul, can't save it in this case?
I wonder if it has something to do with Durge Tav's inherent divinity? Durge Tav was carved directly from Bhaal's flesh, so maybe this gets reconciled as a "they have some god juice in them"?
Tav also hasnt been a mind flayer long. If memory serves me correct, the transformation doesn’t immediately remove the soul and rather it is slowly torn apart over time. I think Withers even says something about it. Something like you barely having enough of a soul left before you died.
@@regaliaex1338 perhaps but he makes it quite clear you having a soul at all at that point, let alone enough for him to meet durgetav is beyond abnormal.
Friendly reminder, in this version of the world, mind flayers don't have souls. That's not karlach, that's her tadpole after eating her entire brain who thinks it's karlach. The real karlach doesn't even get an afterlife. She's just... Gone.
This is weird, but I think it's wholesome. Karlach lived, died, and lives on. Her values and dreams persevere beyond her body and change the world. She's happy.
This hurt to watch cause Karlach always shows her emotions and sounds really happy at times or really mad and her as a mindflayer has no emotions and she sounds so empty inside.
mindflayer karlach is kind of unsettling as she truly made an ultimate sacrifice - perhaps even more significant than running in to the Elder Brain and letting her engine detonate and kill it. what's left is something that speaks with karlach's tongue, but not with her personality or inflections - it's almost worse. yet weirdly, i think the comparisons to the emperor are. not relevant, she is not like him. omeluum goes ignored so much of the time in discussions, but is the true closest you get to a 'good' mindflayer - and it gets pretty close, if not actually is a 'good' mindflayer. performs the assessment on you to help with your tadpole and does genuinely try to assist you with removing it, gives you its ring of mind-shielding for a story about the illithid ships (and doesn't try to guilt-trip you over it), tells you where duke ravenguard is and emphasizes his retrieval and safety over its own, and is working towards effectively the ethical 'vegan' option for illithid diets. karlach/The Tadpole Formerly Known As Karlach seems closer on the spectrum to omeluum than the emperor - especially given she chose a different diet and absorbed the memories of a very different set of people to the emperor. people dying of terminal diseases probably has a greater output of 'good' people to criminals, so karlach absorbs compassion and relief rather than cunning and cruelty. whether squidlach would take omeluum's offer of a vegan diet or not, i don't know; she might prefer to eat no brains, or she might see what she does with the patients as a kindness and sort-of preservation effort with her as the canvas.
Still wanna know how Withers, Mr. Ex-God of Death and caster of true resurrection, couldn't just grow her a heart. My skeleton totally could've done that but I guess fate must spin as it shouldo r whatever
God this broke me to no end to see. I'm glad by the time I got to the ending they'd added an ending where Karlach lives, even happier you get to stay with her.
I came here expecting to regret my first playthrough choice of letting her become a mindflayer (finished a month before this party sequence was a thing and deleted that save to free space on my computer). Surprisingly though, I don't feel that way. I imagine what this would be like at a tabletop, with real players. Karlach's player makes that offer. Maybe that person wanted to go full Illithid to see the stat spread, maybe they felt like it was a better conclusion to their story than dying or returning to hell. Usually when a big decision like this comes up and one player is much more willing shoulder the consequences, a good group will respect that person's decision and let them. If it happens all the time, probably not, but this was the climax and the party was given a dilemma.
I finally hit this point in the game a few days before the update…. Anyway I’m a CN bard who reveled in his illithid powers. The choices were I turn into a mind flayer or let the emperor do it. Karlach had just told me that she was having an existential crisis. I think I bugged Damon because no matter what, I could do nothing with all my infernal iron. I had like 20 of the stuff! Anyway. She throws her name in the hat. I felt bad. She didn’t want to die. She didn’t want to go to hell. And I read all the emperor’s journals. Yes you change but theirs still a semblance that you’re in there! Her heart cooled off and she was able to fight!! She was still her. At the start. Then the epilogue came out. Revisiting her made me feel odd. But she herself states she tries to keep to her values and wouldn’t trade this for the world. It just made me wish I didn’t have too. But I wanted her to live. Even with the death of the soul, at least Karlach wouldn’t be forced to go back to the Hells when her mortal form goes.
Once you heal Karlach's heart you can't keep shoving infernal iron in. I believe we get so much so that even if you manage to miss them in Act 1 & 2, you can still upgrade her in Act 3 alone
I think it's important that they dont. They are a hive-mind species, meant to look and be the same. Their differences come from the minds they have consumed/the mind they first consumed to be born as a mindflayer. Even these small differences would be erased under control like the Elder Brain.
I sacrificed myself and became a mind player, then went to the hells with karlach before she died. Life would be difficult but there would be plenty of demon brains to feast on in the blood war
I honestly don't see this as a bad ending. Karlach or the tadpole that has all of Karlach's memories and thinks she is Karlach seems to be going along the lines of Omeluum and they were decent. Head canon for me is that they eventually figure out a brain substitute together and live out their new strange lives helping other squids break free of elder brains. Friggin' love this game, though I do agree that it is weird the Emperor won't be convinced to trust us on working with Orpheus.
I could NEVER do this in my own playthrough lol. I’ll have to watch endings like this on UA-cam because I couldn’t bring myself to do it. Just watching it is unsettling.
Her voice was so full of life and emotion, be it joy or sadness; but now she sounds like a corpse when you use Speak with the Dead. I almost considered this route because of how much she didn’t want to go back to Avernus but no way. Laezel, despite our exceptional approval, despite ripping through the Bhaal cult to save her, despite literally going to hell and back and killing a devil in his own home to give her the means to save her little prince of racist aliens, she still threatens me like I’m gonna side with the squid? Nah, I’m not sacrificing anyone but him.
@@sanguin3 - Really? I found the final fight more difficult when I had to deal with the Emperor and the mock-up Dream Guardians. Those things are annoying, while the fight if you keep the Emperor seemed to me to be easier. Less mind controlling going around.
If you get Wyll to turn into the blade of Avernus you can get karlach to go to avernus with him and in the epilogue she mentions that they found a cure for her heart.
It's so weird seeing alternate ending things, and I'm glad my path with her ended quite differently. Spoilers ahead: My character and Karlach ending up going back to Avernus, together. They just fight thru the Hells and be badass barbarian tieflings ladies together. Truly, a match made in Hells.
Better die a heartless devil than life on as a soulless octopus. Gods and souls are commonly known to be proven to exist so turning into a mindflayer is a fate way worse than death. I consider nuclear Gale destroying the brain and the crown in Act 3 to be the "good ending" (even better if you got Orpheus to survive) as far as the well-being of the companions and the possible future outcomes are concerned.
Man, so may people claim she has no soul as a mind flayer. Good job, Jergal, your propaganda is top notch. I wonder how may people watched epilogue after mind flayer Durge finishes himself, and then gets visited by Withers, who says something like "Yeah... About that... Turns out you still have have soul, congrats...."
This popped up the day after I finished the game. I’m surprised at how many people made this choice because to me it seems downright awful. Props to her VO who did a fantastic job of this acting because all of it was so sad to listen to. They’re not Karlach just a remnant of her 😢
This entire exchange comes across as just disturbing to me. This isn't Karlach. This is a tadpole that is doing its best to act like Karlach. Remember what Withers says: When a Mindflayer is born, the soul of the original brain is outright destroyed. This is, arguably, her worst fate yet. She might die in the other, or she might have to return to the hells to fight for her freedom, but this is so much worse. No afterlife, no remaining life, there is no more Karlach at this point. She died the moment she volunteered and this... *thing* is trying to convince you that she's still around.
I just finished my first playthrough and i was really upset there was no real resolution for Karlach's quest. I reluctantly let Karlach become mind flayer and thought to myself "is this THE happy ending for my best girl? :c"
Mindflayers don't have souls. Karlach's soul was destroyed. Consumed alongside her normal body. It's not like a vampire or werewolf she is a completely different being
SPOILER: if mind flayer Tav or Durge kills themself in the end, Withers is able to find their soul in the afterlife, confirming that they, at least, are mind flayers with souls. In this case, I have no reason to suspect Karlach would be any different. So if it's any consolation, Karlach might be weirder now, but she does still have her soul and is still herself and not the tadpole aping Karlach's memories.
So tav midflair is still a decent ending. THEY KEEP THERE SOUL (or something similar, withers says as much) for one. And karlach doesnt end like this. Tav ALSO stays pretty intact in general when turning. While it shouldn't, Tav seams to go through a similar process as a werewolf/vampire would.
It's so sad to actually see this thing think it's Karlach, i'm glad that this game showed me it's much better to accept killing blow from friend than become mind flayer. I was so moved by her asking my character if it can be her that is chosen for ceremorphosys. It's the sacrifice i would expect from soldier like her, but daaamn what a bad thing it is. The other end as she accepts her fate with ideal that she was in fact crucial to save the city i consider much better. Remember boys, life is only worth living if you have your soul. Choice between staying alive and keeping true to your soul is in fact no choice at all because you are dead anyway. But losing soul is much much worse ...
The fact she's still on fire but a squid at the same time
I dont get how that works. Doesnt she have a normal heart with that new body?
Karlach the takoyaki
@@davyk515 the tadpole just overwrites the existing physiology, so could be that the absence of an existing heart to overwrite necessitated integrating the engine
Kalamarlach
@@davyk515I believe when she turns into a mindflayer she comments on how the engine is still inside her, but it goes quiet.
Now I know how hard it must've been for Ansur seeing Balduran becoming mindflayer
yea
Well, this is predictably unsettling. I'm glad Larian didn't make them just Karlach, Orpheus, PC, and (Spoiler) in a different body. The mind flayer is the tadpole all grown up, but having taken on the memories and some aspects of its former host. They're typically drones controlled by an elder brain, but without an elder brain, it makes sense that it would take on the former host's dreams, desires, etc, but with its own inborn instincts.
+
I think the fact that she was essentially allowed to maintain continuity with herself by transforming and remaining alone in her body probably helped a lot as well.
There are no better endings?
I suspect that this is probably what happens to all illithids that grow up away from the omnipresent controlling psychic presence of an Elder Brain. You're right in that this is not really Karlach; it's an illithid that has all of her memories and seemingly also a lot of Karlach's personality, but without the constant mental presence of the Elder Brain indoctrinating the new mind flayer into traditional illithid society, the new illithid is free to follow its own path in life like any other mortal creature.
@@diomarius7445 the best ending for her right now is to join her in Avernus. The epilogue clearly gives a sign there's a chance for her to upgrade her heart.
Honestly broke my heart. I thought this was the right choice for her but now that we see some of the other options for her endings, this might... be worse than her death, tbh. She is so unsettling. Especially paired with all the comments she makes outside of conversation with her (like, as you roam the party, the comments that appear above the characters' heads) about how she needs to focus and not be tempted to eat everyone's brains and how her old favourite food is totally unappealing now... like bro. bro. no :'(
here is what I understand about mind flayers and this situation. She is dead, the mind flayer is its own separate being that takes on the memories and consequently some of the persons personality. They are not them and will change according to their instincts, the memories they gain, and what they begin to want.
@@ammonwalden I think you are right. She is, in essence, dead
@@cat_astronaut_ My Tav became the Mindflayer and when it gave me the option to end myself I wussed out and picked jail instead. My epilogue was just Withers visiting me in prison and commending me for my sacrifice.
How concrete is the lore that a mindflayer is soulless though? Like is it a Tav flavoured husk or is it actually possible that it’s Tav filtered through a Mindflayer’s biology?
@@CappyK jergal tells you multiple times, idk how much more concrete it could get -- he's literally the god in charge of that stuff
@@InigoPhentoya Spoilers:
if you choose the “end yourself” ending, in the epilogue you meet a very surprised Jergal, essentially telling you that somehow he still senses a soul in you, and mentions how the world keeps surprising him. So I assume Tav is sort of an exception here, but we don’t know why.
Seeing weird slow monotone Karlach still feels like a huge L
I couldn't. I went to Avernus with her and Wyll. The new update was very, very satisfying for me.
That's not even Karlach. That's just a Mindflayer with her memories but she died and her soul was destroyed the second her body was transformed.
@@twohorsesinamancostume7606 yup. Why I couldn't. Look at the Emperor, and how far he'd fallen. Only echoes of the original, and plenty of justifications for why they aren't that anymore.
@@twohorsesinamancostume7606 soul isn't destroyed, it is sent to outer planes like in case of normal death from cerebral trauma. It can even be resurrected if you have a piece of former body.
@@bengunn9670 the whole point of withers dunking on the dead three is that the mindflayers dont have souls and that by turning people into mindflayers hurts the dead three in the long run. if you talk to Bane via gortash's body, he also says that he knows he wont be getting their souls, but none of the other gods would be getting it either, so Bane considers that a win as he's petty like that. but yeah, soul is destroyed which is why people prefer death than being turned into an illithid.
No way in hell I am ever letting Karlach ever become a mind flayer... Orpheus will always take that hit in all my play-thrus!!! lol
In my first run i took the transformation myself, because i was roleplaying a gith and also dated Lae'zel, so it was obvious to sacrifice myself and let the Prince of the Comet live to lead the rebellion against Vlaakith's tyranny.
Lore wise this is the best decision. Orpheus is a warmonger and the githyanki’s goal is to dominate every other species. Yes Vlakkath is bad, but Orpheus is no better and arguably a bigger threat since he’s not trying to become a god and instead wants to fulfill his mothers dream of domination.
@@chi7818 not the best one if you roleplay the githyanki gish loyal to her people (people, not Vlaakith) like I did ;)
Btw Orpheus is totally different from Vlaakith for one huge reason: in the epilogues he considers peace with githzerai and is sending Lae'zel as an ambassador. Even considering such union is a huge deal, but if it succeeds, imagine what Orpheus could learn from his limbo-dwelling kin. How much potential for new ways and ideas that would broaden the gith culture and change it forever...
@@u1frickb1ack55 the way I see is he plans for an alliance to free githyanki from vlaaktath who is obviously crazy but then would continue in his mothers footsteps to eradicate all illithids then conquer every plane in existence.
I doubt he would just let others live and be at peace like the githzerai.
Who knows though there is too little information about him
I've played through 4 times, I've never even freed Orpheus, but I've always had the hammer. Karlach has become a mindflayer twice, Emperor ate his brain once, and Tav once.
Unfortunately, Karlach had no good endings, prior to the release of the epilogue. She screams that she doesn't want to die, screams that she *can't* and *won't* go back to Avernus, and then when it is said that someone has to either become a Mind Flayer or let Gale blow himself to smithereens, she volunteers to be the sacrificial lamb whose death will spare the city she loves.
As a Good Nature Domain Cleric Tav, I was *deeply* conflicted... but there was nothing "natural" about our predicament, and no solution that could save everyone. Killing Orpheus or letting him turn Illithid meant betraying Lae'zel and her entire race. Becoming Illithid myself and losing my soul wouldn't change the fact that Karlach was doomed, and there was no guarantee that her dying on the Material Plane would keep her soul out of The Hells and Zariel's clutches; she could easily have ended up as a lemure! Blowing up Gale had the same problem, it doesn't prevent Karlach from being stuck as Zariel's possession... But if becoming a Mind Flayer meant the loss of both her body *and* her soul, then there would be nothing left for Zariel to take.
The epilogue was released less than 48 hours after I made this difficult choice... and I learned that other Karlachs seem to have survived just fine in Avernus, and to have found hope for a solution, if not a solution in and of itself.
When the people of Baldur's Gate build statues of us, may Karlach's be the grandest of them all. She embraced oblivion so that we and the city could live on, all because there was no way for Tav to save her, or help her become more powerful like Gale and Astarion did.
Withers... How much gold does a new soul and body cost? 😢
My Tav and Karlach are the love of each others lives. There was no question my Tav was going to go with Karlach to Avernus, so this time she didn’t have to be alone.
I also find the ending in this clip unsettling. Karlach has been a kind of emotional support for me during some pretty crappy stuff. Her vivacity and genuine love of life by continually focusing on what is good in it has been hugely helpful for me. I never expected a game to touch me so deeply, but here we are.
400
In my game, I send karlach with Will to avernus, so she can live and kill some demons. She also mention that found a forge that can male a new heart for her. Is the best ending possible in my opinion
You know the best option is to go to Avernus with her and become a mindflayer. You’ll lose Laz’el if you were romancing her but she’s happy.
@@VoltageCowboy are you saying Karlach becomes a mind flayer or the Tav? But honestly any ending where any of the companions or the Tav are even a partial ilithid is not a good ending for me. It just feels like a defeat of the original goal to not become one.
I know it's pathetic of me to get attached to a made up character, but Karlach is hands down my favorite BG3 personality. Watching this is oddly painful to me
Nothing pathetic about it. Fictional or not, that character is a depiction of a person. Someone exactly like Karlach, Story, personality and so on wise, is out there, in the real world. In fact, there's probably multiple.
There's nothing wrong with being attached to a character. Cause even in fiction, that character is still a person. And their Character - just as strong as a real person.
^^^@@scootaloo9491
Empathy is a feature, not a bug
Nah she's the worst companion easily
@@sledgehammerguy5858 Rage bait
A reminder that a Mindflayer change is more like a Xenomorph than a vampire/werewolf. This isn't Karlarch, it's the tadpole grown that took said memories.
Unless you think something reading your life history and making a copy of it like an A.I. is you even though you're rotting in the ground.
Or if you want something more recent. Jarbairn in Elden Ring isn't suddenly Diallos because he filled his pot with his flesh and gains personality traits.
RIP Diallos. He was a real one
Honestly a better comparison might be Soma. The tadpole was a blank slate ready to devour and download all the data that was a person... but is it really that person? It runs on a different fuel, same as the protagonist in Soma, and something dies or gets left behind when it uploads into a new body
@@josephjackson9679 johnny silverhand if you let him have your body comes to mind. Like, that's not actually johnny, that's just normal v with a REALLY fucked up form of braindamage being piloted like a mech by the nanites in her head to act like Johnny
We got a soma situation basically then with the tadpoles
It's like that hypothetical about teleporting, where you are killed every time you teleport and you basically just make a copy of yourself at your destination
This is like the ship of Theseus. Every mind flayer is a part of the elder brain and ifs not, they take the closest memory at hand = the original host. "she" is all the brains she consumed, but choose Karlach for the main "pilot".
Not quite the ship of Theseus-one large distinction. All has been replaced, yes, except the most vital aspect: the soul. Souls are crucial in the forgotten realms, its who you are
Mmm no, the soul is destroyed by Ceremorphosis. This is clearly stated in the lore.
@@LizardOnAMushroom2358During the epilogue, doesn't Withers say that Tav has kept their soul after turning into a Mindflayers (when you kill yourself)?
The frantic hovering over the "Something doesn't sit right with me." option but knowing you can never choose it lest you hurt Karlach. 😂
Felt in my soul. 😂
Though I think the arrangement she mentions is quite interesting. Sure, it's far from happy, but it does open up an interesting perspective for the future. Here's this mindflayer, former hero and soldier, helping people die a less painful death.
But it's not her, it's the tadpole that kept her memories. Like a copy of her if you will
You can't exactly hurt Karlach with this dialogue option, as this isn't Karlach. It's the Tadpole that was in her head, that has consumed all of her personality and memories and then became essentially a copy of her. Besides that, Mindflayers are incapable of "feeling" anything anyway, so ther eis nothing to hurt.
@@dmitrisemenoff6455 It's like the ship of Theseus, but with people. If you replace a person's body little by little, are they a different person? If you inevitably reach the point where all the original parts have been replaced/upgraded, are they a different person? We replace our cells all the time. At the end of each year, you are literally a different version of the same person because all your cells from the first day are dead and have been replaced (except for neurons). If Karlach's memories and psyche formed the consciousness of this mindflayer, is Karlach actually dead?
@@TheScottishMutt It's not little by little though. It's a separate being that grows inside her skull until it sheds her body and grows into a full mindflayer. The only part that's still "the same" like the ship of Theseus is her memories.
@@TheScottishMutt It's not at all the same thing though?
There is no continuation of consciousness or the self. Karlach dies, something else inherits her memories. Karlach's still dead.
If you read someone's biography you don't suddenly become them.
I think this is sweet, in a way?? Not the yknow consumption of brains, but how, we'll call her Tadpole, is trying to just exist as ethically as she can. And she still loves her friends, or else she remembers how Karlach loved them. Even the like bits of ambient dialogue as peopleve said are understandable. Game is good
Yeah, I gotta say that Illithid Karlach's solution for acquiring brains is even more ethical than what I came up with for my headcanon illithid Tav (who romanced Shadowheart and also elected to try and remain Good), which was basically to go "hunting" for Evil humans/humanoids every week or two. There's plenty of Evil organizations and churches to target, like the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Shadow Druids, worshippers of the Dead Three, drow slavers, orc raiders etc. But you're still murdering them for their brains. Karlach's actually let them make a willing choice.
True, sure its not really Karlach anymore. Its a new life with borrowed body/memories. Tho the more unsettling part is besides brain theres high chance the tadpole wont be able to resist its nature. As i dont believe Emperor has good will. At no point does he actually trust us, we were just convenient and he had to hope we dont die on the way while he was too busy subduing Orpheus. Its very very twisted, highly intelligent nature.
@@LooneyClipseI’d argue yes, the emperor wasn’t a “good guy”, but he wasn’t outright evil either, never at any point does he force you to do anything(like becoming a mind flayer etc) and never outright lies to you, he just withholds what he feels like is “unimportant information”, the part with the mind controlled woman feels less intentional(because that’s a bold move for a cautious mindflayer) and more so “oh shit someone found out” moment.
@@Pyrous56 yeah thats the point of "mindflayers have no soul" they are scheming and manipulative and only worry for self preservation. Emperor was different from most mindflayers. And then theres Omelum, imo he understands how feelings should work, same as Emperor being an exception. So they are neither good or evil, but what they are is unreliable if you dont have clear and cut case with no flaws dealing with them. As there is no option ever to convince Emperor to give up Orpheus. Its pure self preservation.
Edit: sorry for rant, but forreal they cant be argued from human standpoint. I shall stop there or i will rant a storm about obvious stuff.
@@Pyrous56Eeehh, keep telling him you wont trust him. Especially when he is topless and horny for you. He'll be so pissed he goes "Be glad I was just grooming and gaslighting you, I could easily just mindcontrol you like Stelmane. And quit your purity loving attitude. If you wont eat the Tadpoles I'll just make you eat them!"
This ending for Karlach in my opinion really shows why Ansur reacted the way he did to the Emperor situation. Id imagine the way that Karlach changes being unsettling to us and making us wish we could get the old her back was exactly how he felt. Thats why despite the fact its sad and kind of messed up, i really like the writing of it. Really contextualizes the feelings Ansur must have been going through by making us experience it ourselves with a character alot of people really adore over the course of the adventure.
Omeluum has no idea what to make of these new tadpoles being passed around on the streets. He knows they are magic protected, but the tadpoles themselves are different, and speculates that his species may be evolving.
Watching that thing pretend to be karlach is so sad.
I almost respect the tadpole for it. Like it knows it isn't Karlach and admits as much, but still tries to preserve the person that it knows others respected a great deal
They're doing their best to be like her. They're trying to be better than what their biology compels them
What is better? To be born good? Or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?
@@jean-baptistecarver9997 Ah, a Paarthurnax quote spotted in the wild
Yeah I think I'll stick with the "play doom eternal for 6 months then heist the schematics to fix the engine" ending thanks
Poor Karlach sacrificed everything for the world and is now just a shell of her former self… 😭
Technically she isn't. Karlach is dead. This Mindflayer is the Tadpole that was in her head. It consumed all of her personality and memories and than simply "became" that which it has consumed, since there was no Elder Brain to take control. This is essentially just a Mindflayer that *thinks* it is Karlach.
not even a shell. The person literally dies. the grown tadpole takes over with their memories.
I loaded the epilogue and withers came to visit my squiddy self in jail. Said I did a great job. It’s a weird game ending choice where to give everyone their happiest possible ending I have to give my own character the most tragic one possible.
I reloaded and chose to live so I could see the party… but it felt really weird being all coupley with Shadowheart with my expressionless squid face.
If you commit suicide in that case Withers comes to you and promises a new beginning.
SH will probably like PC's squid face for you know, different hentai reasons
Yeah, my first ending I chose to be a mindflayer so laezel and orpheus could save their people and karlach would be unchanged. I also like the idea of everybody getting a happy ending except for the player character who makes the ultimate sacrifice.
I chose to become a mindflayer & ascended with gale to Godhood it was pretty awesome.
nah im vain. orpheus can save his people by becoming a mindflayer, i'll stay modded and hot.
Its almost like its not Karlach but a mind flayer imitating karlach
That's more or less exactly what it is. I see people saying this is her "good" ending because in tiefling form they had her saying that she really wants it, but after seeing just a few lines of dialogue in this, I can safely say this is like the MOST worst for her. That's absolutely not Mama K anymore.
@@TheCursereaper it isn't. the mind flayer lore clearly states that the person dies as their brain is consumed and replaced by the tadpole, they just have their memories. It's a good ending because Karlach sacrificed herself for the greater good, and she was going to die anyway or forced to go back to avernus. but this is not Karlach, she died.
@@TheCursereaper
The best ending is probably where wyll and karlach go to avernus and in the epilogue it’s mentioned that they found a cure for her heart. Orpheus becomes a mindflayer and laezel stays with you If you romanced her.
In the epilogue there’s a note from Voss saying that they’re getting closer to githyanki liberation so there’s absolutely no reason for Laezel to go. Orpheus didn’t sacrifice himself for nothing.
@Infiltrator_ I'm SO glad they added that epilogue. Proves that going to Avernus is her good endin 'cause she doesn't have to die. And I do like that Voss can take up the cause but I still let Lae'zel go with them 'cause it just seemed a little selfish at the time to make her stay. Lol
@@TheCursereaper
I hope that if there's a DLC, it explores Avernus with Karlach and other companions to fix her heart at Zariel's forge. There are hints of a massive expansion, though nothing is confirmed. If they take that route, it could indicate a canon ending for the game. If you romanced Laezel, she may decide whether to stay or go at the end on her own and I’m pretty sure she stays. It is similar to Shadowheart sparing the night song based on approval when you decide to say nothing and let her make her own decisions.
i heard the favorite food line and decided i couldnt accept this.
There is definitely still enough karlach in there for me.
The fact that she turned her new dietary requirements into what would make ilmater smile is, so wholesome.
Yeah for real, it's honestly shouting Karlach. Making the best of a terrible situation is basically her trademark, it's what she has always done best.
I’m sorry to say this but that’s not karlach, karlach is dead and that’s just the tadpole taking on all of her memories, hopes and dreams, wants and desires, and eventually her personality will fade from the illithid and she will truly be gone
@@Random_Tech-Priest that's just one of many interpretations of the philosophical debate on the nature of consciousness.
Simply put in regards to your argument.
I don't care.
Its not karlach, its adult tadpole, a mind flayer with borrowed brain. Shes no longer a vessel just a faint memory of a once living person. Idk how people can settle with that.
@@Marxon1134 It's not one argument, it's DnD lore. It's not a ship of thesis philosophy debate. It's her being devoured and the creature that devoured her taking said memories for it's own use.
This isn't like vampires or werewolves, where it's still you but altered. It's more like a Xenomorph.
I don't get why she's still on fire if her infernal heart has stilled 🤔
Ugh, why couldnt the emperor just fucking cooperate with Orpheus?
Control freak. Seriously, if you really explore all the dialogue options with the Emperor you discover that while he's not *evil* exactly, he is definitely a calculating game-player type and has no problem maneuvering people around his mental chessboard by his words and deeds. There is no version of his chessboard where freeing Orpheus could possibly work, so he refuses to even consider it. In the end, he demands your trust in him, but cannot give you the same in return.
Because he is evil?
Hardly, you can even get the good ending with him without complications, he just happens to be stubborn with Orpheus@@LaFonteCheVi
@@LaFonteCheVi I'd say it's because of the people he ate. He chose to feed on criminals and this in turn made him think like one.
@@jasonmack760 technically he is because he was the one who told three Chosen ones of Death Gods about Crown of Karsus. He is the one that started it all.
The thought of a once-very-sweet woman becoming a thing that consumes brains and then saying she wouldn’t trade that life for anything is terrifying to me.
I feel like everyone forgot about one thing in regards to Karlach.
She’s a hero, and there is no better honor to her than dying young for a cause that she loves, giving her life for Baldur’s gate so that all of her friends and companions she made along the way can live is probably the best ending for her that there is.
And besides, I have no doubt that Tav can get their hands on a wish spell at some point in the future, they are *the* Tav after all.
I don't think it's that bad. She's still out there being heroic, keeping Karlach's sense of justice and helping people while also working with the city. Withers says mindflayers don't have souls but it's shown that Tav maintains his soul when he goes to the fugue plane after dying, so he's just wrong. She says she's happy and would rather be this than be dead. The tadpole isn't impersonating her or anything those are karlach's thoughts.
Where did Withers confirm this? He didn't say anything specific about it.
I might be reading too much into it but the way she stumbles or emphasizes “I” when she says it, but “we” always flows so easily. It makes me feel like it’s the Tadpole and Karlach together in there. Piloting the whole thing.
I’ve seen the other comments talking about how Karlach can’t exist anymore because of how Mindflayers work, but even so, if she is gone then the Tadpole is trying to keep her alive. Like. This doesn’t read enough as Karlach to be someone properly impersonating her, but there’s still too much of her for the Tadpole to discard her. I think the tadpole at least like. It reads as the tadpole having a great respect for Karlach and wanting to live as Karlach would’ve wanted, as best as they can.
Honestly? Kinda vibes as if this Karlach, mindflayer Karlach, is perhaps Karlach III, another daughter in a line with great respect for the Karlach before them (our companion Karlach is Karlach Jr, we find when we see her parents graves and her mother is named Karlach as well). Though all the memories of those she consumes are part of her, this mindflayer choses to follow Karlach as the one to model herself after, to live as she did, and keep the friends Karlach did.
Man I’m overthinking this so much now, I’m about to start writing fanfic in this comments section 😂… I’ll have to go write that fic elsewhere now
No I definitely agree with you, you're not overthinking it. Too many people just assume the tadpole to be evil because of it's biology, but in a way, this ending means that even though Karlach is gone, her mark was still left. Even if the tadpole isn't her anymore, it still took on the torch she left (get it) and used her memories as a force for good. Karlach's sacrifice meant the birth of a empathetic and loving Illithid. The only thing worth mourning about death is when it lacks meaning.
I don't know much illithid lore, but I wonder if it's because Karlach III doesn't have an elder brain to control them. If mindflayers are not being commanded and given purpose by the brain, would they have any other wants or desires besides those of the person they took over?
Another possible explanation is that Karlach II had a tadpole sitting in her brain for weeks, when normally the tadpole is only there for a few days. Maybe the tadpole was able to absorb more from Karlach II because it spent so much time in her noggin
Except there's no Karlach. Just the tadpole that ate her memories and dangles her last in front of you like some sick marionette act
@@deptusmechanikus7362 did you even read the original comment? He addressed this idea.
I love this reading. I feel like there's an additional small moral question the game presents: how can a good (or at least morally neutral) mindflayer sustain themselves? We meet Omeluum in Act 1, and he consumes the brains of the cruel and sadistic in the Underdark, but is seeking effectively a vegan alternative for Illithid society. Between Acts 2 and 3, the Emperor's act fails and we learn he's a mindflayer. He decided to feed on the brains of criminals, or at least who he determined to be such.
And now, we have Karlach III, who wraps this quandary up with a neat little bow. She chose to aid the terminally ill in assisted suicide, letting them wrap up their affairs and say their goodbyes before letting their memories live on in her. Rather than seek out the worst of people to sacrifice for her own needs, she found arguably the most humane answer I hadn't even considered. And if someday Omeluum did find a satisfying vegan brain-free diet, I'm sure she'd be open to it.
While Karlach's definitely better off as herself and kicking ass and taking names in the Hells with Tav's and/or Wyll's help, I feel like this isn't completely the worst for a Karlach whose infernal engine hasn't been repaired. The saddest part is that in becoming a Mindflayer, she has died, and her soul has ceased to be. On the bright side, the memories and values that Karlach holds allow her Mindflayer to serve a purpose that is still righteous, in a way. It's bittersweet, but probably better than letting her burn out.
Karlach is gone. As many have pointed out, this isn’t Karlach, it’s the mindflayer tadpole with Karlach’s memories.
@@KRDD-KMHR Yeah I said as much within my post.
@@KRDD-KMHR They already said that 😅
I don't agree that Karlach is "dead" or "soulless" at this point. There's another ending where Withers finds Tav/DUrge's soul if they turn into a Mind Flayer but choose to stab themselves, implying that Mind Flayers may still have souls, at least in the special case of the hero's party.
It seems to be specifically Tav/Durge whose souls he can retrieve and he evern comments on how strange it is. Admittedly it could be any Origin that's being played, but I haven't seen that.
Mind flayers still briefly have souls after transforming (at least in BG3), they're not instantly gone. Orpheus specifically says as much while asking you to kill him
Tav/Durge dying before their soul is consumed allows Jergal to find them
It's why Karlach is more like herself just after transforming than she is in the epilogue, and it's implied Balduran went through a similar process
The way that she’s a squid but somehow an uwu squid
I became a Mindflayer because I wanted to see what happens and I had no idea you could ask Karlach to do it. Seeing this, I'm glad I did. At least, as the player character, I keep my humanity and there are plenty of brains to feed off of in Avernus.
Not having a soul AND a heart really shows
I honestly prefer letting her blow up to this.
In the epilogue where she's dead, Withers says her soul burns so bright in the fugue plane it hurts even the gods to look at, and I like to imagine this means she'll get kicked out for being too wholesome to judge into any afterlife. My headcanon is that every single outer plane rejects her soul and that she just pops back to life as if nothing happened 😭 let me dream
In my first playthrough, I had Karlach go back to Avernus with Wyll and I thought it was a decent outcome for them. Seeing her in this state just breaks my heart. I almost went this route but I’m glad I didn’t.
2:52 lol yah xD Anyways, this is disturbing! Thank you for uploading this so I could see it without ever having to make the same choice myself!!
Nope. Absolutely not. I HATE this ending for her.
Ceremorphosis isn't the person evolving or transforming. It's the tadpole absorbing the host so they can burst out and take their new form.
In this case, it's like a mind flayer dipped in Karlach seasoning. It has her flavour but is absolutely not her. 😢
Generally true but they took more than a few liberties with BG3 so maybe it is still her and it's more of a transformation than a replacement.
This is by far the worst fate for Karlach, everything she wanted to avoid. Not dead, not in Avernus fighting for a cure, but stripped entirely of her personality. Karlach is gone in this ending.
I mean technically in my playthrough this is what she wanted. She even volunteered in an effort to "save the motherfucking world".
@@calebh4442 Karlach has an intelligence of 8. She heard "We need someone to do this", knew she wanted to die anyway but doesn't comprehend the consequences. The consequence that there will be nothing left of Karlach but a soulless puppet speaking in her voice. She just wanted to go out a hero, but if she saw herself like this she'd get sick.
In this ending, Karlach is dead. She died when she transformed. The tabpole consumed her memory and her personality. It is unclear if the tadpole thinks it is actually Karlach or want to convince you it is Karlach, but in either way, that's not her.
That isn't to say that Illithid Karlach is evil. She helped save the world, does seem to be a good person and we've seen mind flayers free of an Elder Brain be good people elsewhere in the Forgotten Realms. Not just BG3 either, since we can actually meet an Illithid healer in BG2.
an interesting end for a person who was unable to have physical contact with another - to be able to live the lives she was not able to have herself, remotely. That's very very coded.
To all who tought this was the right choice for Karlach: You did not pay attention.
Yep. It's not only death in body, but death of the soul. As far as I understood it, illithyds had souls in the old, pre-5 lore. But the soul of larva was eating the host's soul in the transformation.
I always thought the opposite to be honest.
Karlach doesn't have any right choice. Either she dies, goes back to hell or forces the sacrifice of the only person capable of saving an entire species from their tyrannical ruler.
I personally found that beautiful, the only thing you can give Karlach is a choice, not a happy ending.
@@felicianofrontado3134
I’d say that with the new epilogue having her jump into avernus with Wyll and/or You is her best option. She’s gonna have a friend down there this time.
By the time the party happens 6 months have passed. Since the ending, in that small amount of time the Avernus gang has found a map to blueprints of an upgraded heart that could help Karlach.
She’d only have to be in avernus for just under a year pretty much.
@@felicianofrontado3134 wrong, epilogue shows she's pretty content with you (or Wyll) in Avernus and eager to find the solution for her heart. The only thing she could not take is being ALONE in Avernus.
I decided to become a mind flayer myself and save everybody the trouble. Thinking to myself, Karlach (romanced) is dying so I might as well go out myself in a "heroic" sacrifice of itself. Then to my surprise Karlach accepted my offer for the 3 of us (Wyll, her and I) to go back to Avernus and find hope there for a future together. The ending itself is VERY holeful for a cure for Karlach's condition. Very cool for Wyll, who despite losing his powers would still be a fearsome opponent for Avernus (we saved his father and told fk u to Mizora).
But im most happy to have succeded my ConstitutionCheck, to be sure NOT TO eat Wyll's brain during the post-game festivities. I was very dreaded of what could happen. Still a bit sad Karlach not has an Illithid for a boyfriend but oh well, we make things work I guess?
She is she. A change in the chemistry of the body does not go unnoticed in the psyche, but here is a complete change in all systems. Of course she changes.
And i love her in this body too.
SPOILER
In the other ending, where Tav/Durdgeflayer end themselves, they rise in deathland and meet suprised Withers. Why Karlach, who went through the same ceromorphose procedure as our hero and have strong soul, can't save it in this case?
I wonder if it has something to do with Durge Tav's inherent divinity? Durge Tav was carved directly from Bhaal's flesh, so maybe this gets reconciled as a "they have some god juice in them"?
Only for now, even Withers points out that there's no soul in mindflayer and the psyche is only there temporarily.
Tav also hasnt been a mind flayer long. If memory serves me correct, the transformation doesn’t immediately remove the soul and rather it is slowly torn apart over time. I think Withers even says something about it. Something like you barely having enough of a soul left before you died.
@@regaliaex1338 perhaps but he makes it quite clear you having a soul at all at that point, let alone enough for him to meet durgetav is beyond abnormal.
Karlach: I've missed you soldier
Spontaneously appearing Owlbear: 0:13
Friendly reminder, in this version of the world, mind flayers don't have souls. That's not karlach, that's her tadpole after eating her entire brain who thinks it's karlach.
The real karlach doesn't even get an afterlife. She's just... Gone.
I didn't scroll down to be assaulted like this...
Samantha Beart's best performance no one should have to hear.
This is weird, but I think it's wholesome. Karlach lived, died, and lives on. Her values and dreams persevere beyond her body and change the world. She's happy.
This hurt to watch cause Karlach always shows her emotions and sounds really happy at times or really mad and her as a mindflayer has no emotions and she sounds so empty inside.
So hard to watch. It's too painful.
Okay but this isn't Karlach.
Ceramorphosis annihilates you body and soul. This new creature has taken her place.
she seems so depressed
mindflayer karlach is kind of unsettling as she truly made an ultimate sacrifice - perhaps even more significant than running in to the Elder Brain and letting her engine detonate and kill it. what's left is something that speaks with karlach's tongue, but not with her personality or inflections - it's almost worse.
yet weirdly, i think the comparisons to the emperor are. not relevant, she is not like him. omeluum goes ignored so much of the time in discussions, but is the true closest you get to a 'good' mindflayer - and it gets pretty close, if not actually is a 'good' mindflayer. performs the assessment on you to help with your tadpole and does genuinely try to assist you with removing it, gives you its ring of mind-shielding for a story about the illithid ships (and doesn't try to guilt-trip you over it), tells you where duke ravenguard is and emphasizes his retrieval and safety over its own, and is working towards effectively the ethical 'vegan' option for illithid diets. karlach/The Tadpole Formerly Known As Karlach seems closer on the spectrum to omeluum than the emperor - especially given she chose a different diet and absorbed the memories of a very different set of people to the emperor. people dying of terminal diseases probably has a greater output of 'good' people to criminals, so karlach absorbs compassion and relief rather than cunning and cruelty. whether squidlach would take omeluum's offer of a vegan diet or not, i don't know; she might prefer to eat no brains, or she might see what she does with the patients as a kindness and sort-of preservation effort with her as the canvas.
2:51 had me dying
Still wanna know how Withers, Mr. Ex-God of Death and caster of true resurrection, couldn't just grow her a heart. My skeleton totally could've done that but I guess fate must spin as it shouldo r whatever
Still mad they dont swap out the newborn model for a fully developed mindflayer
God this broke me to no end to see. I'm glad by the time I got to the ending they'd added an ending where Karlach lives, even happier you get to stay with her.
This isn't Karlach, but the entity she left behind is still able to do some good in her name.
I came here expecting to regret my first playthrough choice of letting her become a mindflayer (finished a month before this party sequence was a thing and deleted that save to free space on my computer). Surprisingly though, I don't feel that way. I imagine what this would be like at a tabletop, with real players. Karlach's player makes that offer. Maybe that person wanted to go full Illithid to see the stat spread, maybe they felt like it was a better conclusion to their story than dying or returning to hell. Usually when a big decision like this comes up and one player is much more willing shoulder the consequences, a good group will respect that person's decision and let them. If it happens all the time, probably not, but this was the climax and the party was given a dilemma.
You can just tell its not Karlach by the first few words.
Yup, Not a single curse word was said.
Definitely not Karlach.
I didnt wanna turn karlach into one but it seemed the best decision seeing how she was gonna die, after i saw her here it broke me sad never again
I finally hit this point in the game a few days before the update…. Anyway I’m a CN bard who reveled in his illithid powers. The choices were I turn into a mind flayer or let the emperor do it. Karlach had just told me that she was having an existential crisis. I think I bugged Damon because no matter what, I could do nothing with all my infernal iron. I had like 20 of the stuff! Anyway. She throws her name in the hat. I felt bad. She didn’t want to die. She didn’t want to go to hell. And I read all the emperor’s journals. Yes you change but theirs still a semblance that you’re in there! Her heart cooled off and she was able to fight!! She was still her. At the start.
Then the epilogue came out.
Revisiting her made me feel odd. But she herself states she tries to keep to her values and wouldn’t trade this for the world. It just made me wish I didn’t have too. But I wanted her to live. Even with the death of the soul, at least Karlach wouldn’t be forced to go back to the Hells when her mortal form goes.
Once you heal Karlach's heart you can't keep shoving infernal iron in.
I believe we get so much so that even if you manage to miss them in Act 1 & 2, you can still upgrade her in Act 3 alone
Jesus... this is creepy AF.
SO glad I didn't go down this route.
I wish the player mindflayers looked cooler and more varied depending on race/body type.
I think it's important that they dont. They are a hive-mind species, meant to look and be the same. Their differences come from the minds they have consumed/the mind they first consumed to be born as a mindflayer. Even these small differences would be erased under control like the Elder Brain.
This is literally the worst fate possible for her considering the mindflayers overall lore in the forgotten realms
I sacrificed myself and became a mind player, then went to the hells with karlach before she died.
Life would be difficult but there would be plenty of demon brains to feast on in the blood war
I honestly don't see this as a bad ending. Karlach or the tadpole that has all of Karlach's memories and thinks she is Karlach seems to be going along the lines of Omeluum and they were decent. Head canon for me is that they eventually figure out a brain substitute together and live out their new strange lives helping other squids break free of elder brains. Friggin' love this game, though I do agree that it is weird the Emperor won't be convinced to trust us on working with Orpheus.
That's....thats not Karlach. That's not her. It's her voice, but it's not right. It's her memories, but not her mind. I feel ill looking at this.
I could NEVER do this in my own playthrough lol. I’ll have to watch endings like this on UA-cam because I couldn’t bring myself to do it. Just watching it is unsettling.
It would be funny to watch mindflayer act like a tomboy like she used to. Cursing and being a giant child.
Her voice was so full of life and emotion, be it joy or sadness; but now she sounds like a corpse when you use Speak with the Dead. I almost considered this route because of how much she didn’t want to go back to Avernus but no way.
Laezel, despite our exceptional approval, despite ripping through the Bhaal cult to save her, despite literally going to hell and back and killing a devil in his own home to give her the means to save her little prince of racist aliens, she still threatens me like I’m gonna side with the squid? Nah, I’m not sacrificing anyone but him.
Him being Orpheus?
@@SidheKnightThey let the Emperor eat Orpheus' brain I guess.
Which is automatically a bad ending imo because it makes the final fight much slower.
@@sanguin3 - Really? I found the final fight more difficult when I had to deal with the Emperor and the mock-up Dream Guardians. Those things are annoying, while the fight if you keep the Emperor seemed to me to be easier. Less mind controlling going around.
I personally feel like my body is only a vessel for my mind. So why does the idea of becoming a mind flayer make me feel so unsettled?
I never let her become a mindflayer because I always volunteer so it was great seeing this.
Yeah im taking the hells instead of seeing karlach like this.
If you get Wyll to turn into the blade of Avernus you can get karlach to go to avernus with him and in the epilogue she mentions that they found a cure for her heart.
Only a coward lets Karlach stoop to losing her soul to become GHAIK
hearing her voice like this messes me up. Never letting this happen.
Saddest ending personally, that's not Karlach anymore......
Not just that, but she is now a soulless being
this is.... man i feel so bad for her, she hardly even seems like the same person anymore :( breaks my heart a bit icl
The fact they did this to one of the “happier” endings for Karlach kinda stinks lol
I think this is still less disturbing that convos with Tav mindflayer
Not a bad ending but defining a sad ending.
It's so weird seeing alternate ending things, and I'm glad my path with her ended quite differently. Spoilers ahead:
My character and Karlach ending up going back to Avernus, together. They just fight thru the Hells and be badass barbarian tieflings ladies together. Truly, a match made in Hells.
Better die a heartless devil than life on as a soulless octopus. Gods and souls are commonly known to be proven to exist so turning into a mindflayer is a fate way worse than death. I consider nuclear Gale destroying the brain and the crown in Act 3 to be the "good ending" (even better if you got Orpheus to survive) as far as the well-being of the companions and the possible future outcomes are concerned.
Something about her voice here is so tantalizing...
To people who say turning into a Mind Flayer is her best ending- No.
Karlach becoming a Mind Flayer is cannon.
Mr. Larion is my uncle.
Fuck that I got everyone through alive im never turning anyone into a squid orpheus can be a fucking squid everytime.
Man, so may people claim she has no soul as a mind flayer. Good job, Jergal, your propaganda is top notch.
I wonder how may people watched epilogue after mind flayer Durge finishes himself, and then gets visited by Withers, who says something like "Yeah... About that... Turns out you still have have soul, congrats...."
squidlach i love you
It's disgust me, really, what she become in game and those discussion is make me feel in my mind "good that I'm not experimenting with her".
This popped up the day after I finished the game. I’m surprised at how many people made this choice because to me it seems downright awful. Props to her VO who did a fantastic job of this acting because all of it was so sad to listen to. They’re not Karlach just a remnant of her 😢
Well, it's the only way to hell with it. Anything's better than squid.
It's not really a popular choice, most commenters dislike this outcome. People just want to see all the endings.
This entire exchange comes across as just disturbing to me. This isn't Karlach. This is a tadpole that is doing its best to act like Karlach. Remember what Withers says: When a Mindflayer is born, the soul of the original brain is outright destroyed. This is, arguably, her worst fate yet. She might die in the other, or she might have to return to the hells to fight for her freedom, but this is so much worse. No afterlife, no remaining life, there is no more Karlach at this point. She died the moment she volunteered and this... *thing* is trying to convince you that she's still around.
She goes from ride or die buddy to generic npc healer monotone voice, I mean I get it but at the same time noooo.
I just finished my first playthrough and i was really upset there was no real resolution for Karlach's quest. I reluctantly let Karlach become mind flayer and thought to myself "is this THE happy ending for my best girl? :c"
Mindflayers don't have souls. Karlach's soul was destroyed. Consumed alongside her normal body. It's not like a vampire or werewolf she is a completely different being
They do have souls though. Just not apothic souls
SPOILER: if mind flayer Tav or Durge kills themself in the end, Withers is able to find their soul in the afterlife, confirming that they, at least, are mind flayers with souls. In this case, I have no reason to suspect Karlach would be any different. So if it's any consolation, Karlach might be weirder now, but she does still have her soul and is still herself and not the tadpole aping Karlach's memories.
Same with any other origin character. The soul Withers finds are we, the player.
A fate worse than death
So tav midflair is still a decent ending. THEY KEEP THERE SOUL (or something similar, withers says as much) for one. And karlach doesnt end like this. Tav ALSO stays pretty intact in general when turning. While it shouldn't, Tav seams to go through a similar process as a werewolf/vampire would.
It's so sad to actually see this thing think it's Karlach, i'm glad that this game showed me it's much better to accept killing blow from friend than become mind flayer. I was so moved by her asking my character if it can be her that is chosen for ceremorphosys. It's the sacrifice i would expect from soldier like her, but daaamn what a bad thing it is. The other end as she accepts her fate with ideal that she was in fact crucial to save the city i consider much better. Remember boys, life is only worth living if you have your soul. Choice between staying alive and keeping true to your soul is in fact no choice at all because you are dead anyway. But losing soul is much much worse ...
Fried calamari
good for her honestly