The entire discussion was predicated on the false supposition that Kyle "killed someone over property". This is false. He was there defending property, but he only shot in defense of his own person. He didn't shoot anyone to defend property.
Yes. It's similar to "I don't think it is proportionate to kill someone who throws a plastic bag at you". Some ancillary detail is used to complicate the simple situation. He said he was defending property -> it is wrong to kill to defend property-> he was in the wrong. A similar argument would be - He said he was there to give first aid -> it is wrong to shoot people to give first aid -> he was in the wrong.. You have to wonder how these people manage this in their brains
@@magrathean0 Simple, by not knowing all the factual shit inbetween the talking head points. As far as the dumb lefty people online know, Kyle Rittenhouse, a white nationalist and member of the anti-black Kenosha Guard, took his fully-automatic military rifle across state lines, driven by his equally racist mother. He lied about being a medic and his age. Then him and his boogaloo boys racist friends went out looking for trouble and found 3 black guys to shoot, one while he was lay down, and one guy survived though he was shot while surrendering. Then Kyle went to pose with white nationalist proud boys and walked out of the courthouse before the seat got warm because he was white. Some are slightly more knowledgeable but still wrong. They might know it's not full-auto. They might know it was white guys (but still call him a white supremacist). They might know he was provoked first (but still claim it was just a bag is why he shot 3 people). The sad part is these are MIGHTS. There are plenty of people who don't even know THIS much. I saw big name news like MSNBC claiming he fired 60 rounds full-auto into a crowd and killed 3 black people. In reality, all of that is false except his name. But they don't care about that, they care that it's a good story. They don't care to look into the random little details that get brought up, because that might make the whole narrative fall apart.
@@magrathean0 It's simple obfuscation. They know if that if they have to deal with the reality that Kyle was about to be maimed or killed by the rioters who were attacking him, they will have no other choice than to admit that Kyle had no other choice than to shoot to defend his life. Bringing up the state lines and property defense nonsense is all a ploy to avoid dealing with the issue.
I also like how everyone ignores that Kyle likely saved dozens of people's lives and saved the BLM protest movement as a whole. Rosenbaum was pushing a flaming dumpster towards a gas station surrounded by dozens innocent protesters, after he told people to kill him and said he wanted to hurt people. So his intentions were incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention, a gas station explosion can be massive, it easily could've killed or injured 30+ people with how many people were closely surrounding the station. Luckily Kyle comes up and puts the fire out, likely saving dozens of people and the BLM movement (Had the gas station gone up and killed dozens of people, then the BLM protest movement likely would've died right there as it would've been one of the worse mass murder in recent history.). But as a result of saving those people he was attacked and had to defend his own life, then others take it upon themselves to be vigilantes and attack Kyle. I always find it hugely hypocritical when people criticise Kyle saying he is being a vigilante, but then ignore the vigilantism of the 2 others that Kyle shot that actually resulted in needless death. It's amazing how quickly people will ignore really key parts of the situation for the sake of taking an ideological stance on things like guns and vigiliantism of perceived conservatives (Cause we all know that if it's BLM or some other oppressed group, then vigilantism is considered ok).
They won't have any choice now that Destiny's moving to UA-cam. (JIC someone reading this isn't up to speed, his Twitch partnership was revoked for 'encouraging violence', though in classic Twitch fashion specifics were not given).
51:20 Bro, the way he left out the key part of that statement to try and make Destiny's statement as inflammatory as possible has got to be one of the biggest weasel moves I've ever seen.
He had it coming. He gave too hot of a take. I am with him on allot of his takes but the way he phrased that take even if there is a nugget of truth there could easily be interpreted as condoning violence.
@@travelerfinder7840 Isn't there a difference between inciting violence ("I want all of you to go out in the streets and kill rioters") and hyperbolic language though?
@@ParchedPinemarten I totally agree there is a difference between the two. Not everybody picks up that he is being hyperbolic though. Us as fans will pick it up. I have a destiny filter in my brain and hear him making a case for the riots hurting our elections victory chances and reaffirming his position on private property defense Others hear him condoning violence. which is an easy interpretation if you already don't like him.
Traveler Finder Saying the riots are justified is literally condoning violence. Saying you support people defending their property legally as allowed under the law is NOT condoning violence. And to conflate the two is utterslly fucking ridiculous.
Book Smarts, a sanity check question, was TheSerfs implying at the end that business owners are rich enough to withstand any losses from burning down their business?
Man i wonder if thats because he deals with lefties on a daily basis and he knows that those same lefties will EAT anything they can get hold of including their own, for anything thats taken out of context.
I don’t think if someone is burning down your house you are thinking “how is this going to optically affect the BLM movement” you will be thinking “holy shit why are these people burning down my fucking house.”
Feels like most of the conversation was irrelevant as Kyle didn’t kill anyone over property. He did it to preserve his own life after he was chased, cornered, and threatened. He had more right to be there than the people attacking him.
Exactly! Any discussion of "defending property with lethal force" is COMPLETELY irrelevant as that is NOT what happened in this case. It was a case of a 17 year old young man defending his life against 3 rioters with criminal records. Discussing ANYTHING else besides those brief encounters is pointless and irrelevant.
I love how lefties are all about solidarity but they are against showing solidarity when it comes to defending someone elses property. Why exactly should I not be allowed to help someone else protect their existence?
Typically, because they don't consider a person's property to be synonymous with their existence. The phrase "It's just stuff" is pretty informative here. For some, the word "property" probably carries some tricky connotations, either referring to replaceable personal property or unjust and bourgeois private property. Finally, the left usually doesn't believe in solidarity irrespective of the cause; and the social climate probably leads many to feel like "defense of property" is likely to be weaponized against themselves. Not arguing for any of these viewpoints, just trying to describe what I think is going on. There are some real potential inconsistencies in there.
Content creators should stop plat forming radical Marxist degenerate trash like Vaush. This is now the 4th (at least) content creator Vaush’s cult has tried to cancel for being counter revolutionary against their utopian cult.
This "its just things" part hurts me man. These people dont understand what it feels like when you have nothing and know one. They think objects can just be replaced. Bro the people destiny talks to have no idea what they are talking about.
Man, watching this stuff is rough sometimes. It's like 40 minutes of talking just trying to clarify if property is worth killing over. Jesus, like pulling teeth.
That's kind of the point of this kind of thing though. If you can get down to the root of each argument to just the most basic pieces that each side can agree to, you can use those to build up and get to the real argument. From there you can just and see whose tower topples the quickest. It really is the only fair way to play, as much as it is like pulling teeth.
To be fair-this isn't necessarily about if property is worth killing over... But whether the guy felt like he was in danger-which you can argue, because he got charged and had his gun grabbed several times PRIOR to his attempt to run to the cops.
His video on jontron kinda rubbed me the wrong way, it just came off as “hey look jontron is a centralist, remember when he was in the alt-right 3 years ago” and idk just came off as “I am virtues”
I think this whole hoopla boils down to a really simple thing - "He is not from my tribe". You can agree on every single point, ideology or idea and then return back to that case and meet the same "But he shot protesters though. Protesters - my tribe, good tribe. He bad."
Hearing the Serfs speak on this is just so sad and so tough I couldn't do it //// Thank god Destiny carries the torch for us all, stay strong buddy your mental will always be tested
All of the debates I’ve seen covering this seem to ignore what ignited the situation in the first place, which was Kyle extinguishing a dumpster that had been set on fire and was about to be pushed into a gas station. This was part of the New York Times recap of the situation. After putting out this fire several members of the mob started chasing him down, which lead to the confrontation that resulted in the initial shooting. After this Kyle freaks out for a bit while the daily caller journalist administered aid to the shot guy, Kyle calls someone to tell them what happened and he starts to flee the area. This is when the others set upon him, they catch up to him and throw him on the ground. He shoots at the guy who pulled him down twice, misses, and that guy fucks off. The other two guys keep coming after him, one with a gun, and he shoots them. He then gets up and runs until he reaches the police, who apparently told him to gtfo and then he was arrested at home the next day.
What’s the point of debating Lance? He doesn’t stand by anything he says and all his arguments are backed up by a vague moral framework that don’t have any defined principles.
Lance will literally agree with whatever viewpoint is trending amongst his far-left circles. It’s pathetic. I don’t understand how he feels confident enough to debate anyone, let alone destiny.
Because he is implying that the specifics of each instance really matter when attempting to discern the definition of community. I don't think it's unreasonable.
@@erichooper2794 Yeah, but by the very least, if that argument was going to be used in court and defined in law.... Should't someone at least live in a community or have familial ties to a community to use the argument "I was defending my community!" Or I could literally say that any community that I have passed through and have taken a liking to are "My community" which doesn't really work out as well does it?
1. The weapon never crossed state lines 2. Nobody yet know WHY Joseph was chasing Kyle 3. Whatever happened b4, Kyle was obviously trying to disengage 4. Richie Mcguiness the closest eyewitness, saw Joseph lunge for Kyles gun. 5. Grabbing the weapon of an armed person is obviously a very aggressive and threatening act
the magic chanch shell What? No he was never for deplatforming people and he would have anyone on because he’s super pro free speech. And he’s been shitting on crazy lefties since like 2016 but
When people don't want to answer a question, it means they have a particular disagreement about the narrative behind the question, not that they *can't* answer necessarily. Destiny did interviews with Jesse Lee Peterson and Jesse flung tons of yes-or-noes at Steven and those were unanswerable because the narratives were feces.
(Cont.) Not that I'm saying Steven's narratives were feces, just that Serfs wants to go contrary, and if he has an intellectual justification for it, let him make his appeal to truth and hear whatever his arguments are. We are here to be critical thinkers aren't we?
@@vikuswavy5785 I would agree with you when it comes to complex and or even simple broad lines of questioning. As an example "Is war bad?"..... yeah sometimes...? But his question was very specific and not answering in a yes or no just seemed grimy to me. That being said; I'm sure most of you would consider my political opinions to be "far right". I come to his streams to try and understand the other side.
@@BookSmarts i think you being in the debates makes it so much better, Destiny seems to go slower with you there and i think it will improve his debate skills having you there
@@BookSmarts You're so fucking good at this dude. Seriously, I watch a ton of Destiny vods, and I feel like everyone he debates ends up running their own argument in circles, and it's just 3 hours of restating the same shit. You're good at moving the conversation forward, and clearing up confusion. Good work man!!
Lance is moderating because he's glad he doesn't have to take part in the discussion either. Saw him just discuss this topic against Sitch and Adam Unfriended and it was just a display of how to be a weaseling shit 101.
Hey I have an example. What about a family of say, Indian immigrants. Maybe their last name would be Khindri or something. What if they had a business, or three, and one of them had already been completely burned to the ground. Would they be allowed to ask for assistance in protecting the last of their livelihood?
The thing is, i don't think it matters WHY he was there in the first place! The right to defend property argument etc isn't even relevant because in the video (it could be argued in another scenario but imo its unrelated to the discussion as to if he was justified to shoot) , Unless there was some crazy context that we havent seen, Kyle was running away. He wasn't actively defending property he was treating and attacked. He wasn't shooting to top anyone from damaging property because he was actively retreating and didn't shoot until other shots were fired and he (in my opinion) had a valid reason to believe he was in danger to the extent he needed to protect his life.
Some people use property vs life as an argument to condemn Kyle at the moment he made good on his intent to come there armed to defend property. It's not at all relevant to self defense, I agree, and it's frustrating that people think this argument invalidates the self defense argument. You might be interested in a video I did going through these (I'm the 'mod' in this talk)
Book Smarts also yikes I only just realised how many typos I made. I’m surprised you could make out what I was saying lol. I blame the child I had in my arms
@@nateworthy530 obviously his stances haven't changed but the way he words things is much better. Destiny seems to be allergic to hyperbole except when he's shitting on his own chat.
Yea making it a point to defend right wing shootings is so much better, fuck everything thing else. This is the content I like. I only get down with content that talks about how lefties are crazed individuals that should be shot
This guy is auch a weasle. There are two distinct questions he is intentionally conflating to paint Kyle as morally unjustified. First question is, did Kyle have a moral justification to be there in defence of property. The second question is, was Kyle morally justified to defend himself with lethal force against a threat to his own life, NOT to property. The Serfs is intentionally conflating these two when he talks about how lethal force is never justified in defence of property. THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED! It's either a bad faith debate tactic or intellectually dishonest.
Lance starts by saying he’s not a detective. This is always his problem bc that doesn’t stop him from forming and broadcasting his opinions. He doesn’t get that if he’s gonna spout opinions about something, he has a responsibility to learn what tf it’s actually about first.
Kyle didn't kill in defense of someone else's property, he killed in self defense. Why didn't Destiny hammer him on this cause Lance kept reverting to that.
"It's wrong to defend property!" Ok. Let's imagine a bunch of klansmen are burning down black owned businesses. If Kyle wanted to defend these black businesses from the klan would you still be upset? If the answer is no, then this was never about property.
These kinds of people can't engage with hypotheticals. Either out of stupidity or fear you'll point out how stupid they are. They'd just say "WHAT?? YOU'RE COMPARING BLM TO THE KKKLAN??" or "Well only a black person would shoot the Klan and he'd be found guilty because he's black and america hates black people"
Kyle lived about 15 minutes away. The owner/s of a small group of stores were afraid their businesses were going to be destroyed and asked Kyle and a couple other people to stand watch and protect their stores. I believe the owner is a friend of his family. He also brought emergency supplies and helped people who had been hurt and had water he gave out.
I have a natural, innate right to self preservation. Defense of property is an extension of that right. Defense of community is also an extension of that right.
I think what happened before Kyle was retreating, there was a video showing a dumpster on fire and someone used a fire extinguisher on the dumpster fire that pissed off a couple of rioters. We can't see if it was Kyle that out out the fire, but we see Kyle running around with a fire extinguisher. It is probably what kicked off the confrontation.
imagine TheSerfs is a judge and the defendant saw a group of bullies beat somebody unconscious and shot them. Then TheSerfs says: "but how did you know that they werent just about to leave after beating him unconscious? Unless they are about to kill him WHICH YOU CANT KNOW you have no right to help him. Especially since he was just a stranger and not like your brother."
Lol where did you find this clown ? You had him on his heels from the 1st question. If you want a real conversation get back to me. You let him get you away from the point of self defense not defending property . Kyle was running for his life heard a gun shot and shot the man chasing him. The other people had him on the ground kicking him and hitting him in the head with a skate board . ✌❣
@randomer1432 it was Rosenbaum who went after him. And what about that scenario is especially far fetched? They are on video visibly upset than Kyle put out the fire and Rosenbaum makes an open threat as well about taking their guns
@@justingutierrez233 That would only justify shooting rosenbaum though. The other 2 people only knew that somebody was shot and that the guy responsible was running away. At that point, from their viewpoint, they could also make the case that they were just trying to disarm kyle to protect their community, aka the other protesters... But that for some reason is not applied to them. I dont think that letting kyle get away so easily is a meaningful point here. But here is a better one. A bunch of armed black folks show up at charlottesville, just to protect all those nice white liberal allies counterprotesting...Shit escalate in a similar way... How do the black folks end up? I am quite sure they would not be able to get away this easy.
Putting yourself in harms way doesn't mean you lose the right to self defence, if that was the case then cops couldn't defend themselves. This just isn't true.
@@jloiben12 Aged well. Wisconsin law says he's innocent. As would anyone who read Wisconsin law and watched the video that came out day of, it contains literally EVERYTHING you need for the ruling, because the provocation is actually irrelevant.
Destiny why dont you ask these guys if youre allowed to hire security to protect your business. Money would be the only seperating factor calling in a paid guard or calling community to help protect
the serfs does not seem to be arguing in bad faith here. i feel like his arguments are more based on feelings, and he is kind of "discovering" his principles as they go along. I dont think he was aware of his position "you should never kill for property" when the conversation started. he should be less weary of getting "gotcha'd", because it makes the otherwise good conversation seem really hostile. the only thing i might interpret as bad faith was the "you are the real class reductionist, focusing on material conditions" (because its either really stupid or bad faith), but he probably just thought of it (or saw it in chat or something) and threw it out there.
i dont think is bad faith as much as people are not really used to this kind of isolated point-by-point discussion, and destiny tends to assume people are, thats why when lance jumps in you can clearly see a shift in the tone of the conversation towards a more understanding approach where as destiny would have screamed at him for not understanding what he was getting at.
@Nspnspker I dont personally agree with your example but i can see where you are coming from, i think the reason he chooses these hills to die on is because he at some level hates the idea of agreeing to much with any political ideology a likes to think of himself as free thinker, which is kinda stupid if you ask me. in any case, i think you might have misinterpreted the point i was making, i was defending the serfs, not destiny, by pointing out that they weren't arguing in bad faith and yet without lance it would have become another shouting match cause destiny tends to assume people are bad faith when they are not familiar or used to the type of discussions he usually has.
Chat Comment: An armed kid has no right to run around with a gun, he did more damage then good... Me: oh I don't know about that he killed a pedophile and almost blew off the arm of a woman beater... sounds like a productive night.
The guy shot in the arm had some clash in with police before but was not a felon, and had the right to conceal carry. The woman beating also applies to the national hero Kyle, just look it up. Also its a bunch of lazy right wing papers that make this claim, and woman beating (in his case his sister) is actually attributed to the guy shot in the abdomen - lazy reading on your behalf. Rosenbaum however was indeed a rotten apple. The guy shot in the arm not so much, the guy shot in the abdomen had some mental issues according to snopes.
@@ktaikamatika1397 Having the right to conceal carry doesn't give you the right to attempt to apprehend someone fleeing. You do not have legal justification to chase someone down who was defending themselves from someone who is ,by your own admission, a "rotten apple". Not only that but I don't think you're morally justified in doing so. Anyone who ran to the defence of the bad apple got what they had coming logically, morally and justifiably. I 100% stand by my statement. We lost no one of importance that night and Kyle did right by himself and his community. You want to LARP social justice hero then you attract people who want to LARP GI Joe. Frankly I'm more then happy to let these people deal with each other. But long story short if I was a betting man , my money is on GI Joe.
@@leganzar7831 citizen's arrest could apply, since from Gaige's/Huber's perspective the kid was a murderer (at that time). I did not say conceal carry gave him any right to pursue, but 'citizen's arrest' could justify it from their perspective. I would not defend rosenbaum, since he obviously assauled the kid (his pedophilia is irrelevant here, even though it is pretty terrifying for sure), but Huber and Gaige could be viewed as simply trying to apprehend him from their own knowledge of the situation and perspective (and them being dumb, I give you that). Also Gaige seems to be doing something wierd as he has his handgun pulled out but at the same time he holds both of his hands up trying to approach the bleeding Huber, as Gaige was a paramedic with a first aid kit. Still Gaige can only be accused of being dumb, but he did not assault Kyle, and it is obvious from the tape. He could be percieved as a threat with his handgun pulled yes, but the fact that he had ample of time to just shoot Kyle beforehand (the tape clearly shows a clean 6-10~ seconds where he could have just shot him). Needless to say, after his biceps got dismantled, he said (out of anger) that he regretted not loading the magazine into the kid. It was a shitty night triggered by rosenbaum's aggression and recklessness.
@@ktaikamatika1397 fun LARP, they attacked a person that person defended themselves. I don't care how justified they felt. If I think I'm doing the right thing when I'm burning down a neighborhood I'm not a good person by virtue of thinking it so. So does citizens arrest apply to white dudes who think a black dude raped a woman? I mean they think he did, let's beat him with skateboards boys! No right?
@@leganzar7831 Its wierd you bring up an example that actually occurs pretty often, tho not in a rape situation. Rayshard Brooks was shot by police RUNNING away (aka not presenting a threat anymore, tho he stole a taser before that, true). Walter Scott got shot unarmed by police, running away (he was totally unarmed). Jacob Blake was shot 7 times by the police, simply for not complying, but presenting no threat. Ahmad Aubery was "citizen arrested" then killed by white folks, he was unarmed, and the CA was not warranted by any circumsctance, other than the 2 white folks thinking he was a burglar. I could go on but instead I would address another statement of yours: "If I think I'm doing the right thing when I'm burning down a neighborhood I'm not a good person by virtue of thinking it so." Well, neither Huber nor Gaige were involved in burning anything, and its wierd you would conflate them with Rosenbaum's arsonist behaviour. But in most situations people act on their percieved reality, not with full contextual knowledge. Overall, To answer your core point tho: by law, yes white dudes could CA a supposed rapist (even by force according to CA in many states), the CA however also mentions that in any disproportionate cases, the people carrying out the CA may be held responsible for their use of force in court.
Almost stopped watching destiny because of the kenosha thing until I realized that destiny's arguments are sound and ultimately probably right but it made me incredubly uncomfortable to agree with him so I wanted to pretend he was wrong and almost didn't do the self reflection necessary to see past my initial uncomfort
And that process will make you intellectually stronger. The problem is that people sometimes attack what they believe to be the source of the discomfort instead of examining why they are uncomfortable or perhaps struggling with an idea. The tricky part is that the discomfort or anger is sometimes simply the result of a person just saying an objectively stupid thing. 😉 I completely agree with Destiny's take on all of this but I can understand that sometimes the delivery is a bit... prickly.... which can make it difficult to consider.
just curious, what was it about destiny's premise on the kenosha shooter situation that bothered you? i saw it pretty black and white as a case of self-defense so I've been having a difficult time seeing the other side. I thought vaush's take was disingenuous and found it difficult to take it seriously, but i'd be interested in hearing yours.
I think the scenarios that destiny is giving are very confusing in general. I better way, in my opinion, explain your point would be something like Scenario: You are driving up to YOUR hardware store (you owe and operate this store) You see 3-4 people in front of your store with a crowbar, a bat, and the other/s are unarmed. You yell at them to get away from your shop. They respond that if you don't get involved or try to stop them you won't be hurt. So you have to option to get into your car and drive away, let them do what they want with your store, or open the glove box of your car where you have an unregistered 9mm. If you take out the gun and threaten to shoot them, they charge you. Granted they only have 1 crowbar and 1 bat between the 3/4 of them. Then if they agree that in this scenario you are justified in pulling a gun on them and threatening them you can move on to killing them as self-defense. If you've gotten to this point you can just switch it to where you are not the owner but just a guy in his parked truck and the owner runs up to you and asks you for help. Again, in my opinion, this resembles a closer scenario to what actually happened, and its a better way to see where the other person value stand. And there are conditions in the scenario that are easily interchangeable to show a person that their arguments wouldn't be the same if u just change something.
Nah he likes making it a point to obsess over it because it brings in so many new centrist and right leaning people that love the sight of leftists dying, and they love fantasizing about the same scenarios because people like destiny will defend them even if the intention is to end someone's life
Dear Lance: this is *America.* If you don't want to get in a gun fight then don't fight people who have guns. The whole point of open carry is so that people *won't* attack you.... because they know you have a *gun.*
So many people like him act like the people doing the criminal act in the first place was just predetermined, and nothing is their fault, and there's nothing they could have done. They argue it all the time when it comes to police shootings. "Why did they shoot him? He only had a knife, they totally could have knocked it out of his hand or something, or used a taser", bitch, if a guy is sprinting at 10 cops with guns drawn so fast they can't even get a taser out, that's not on the cops if they shoot him, that's on him. So here they're acting like it was just totally natural that someone would throw themselves into a life or death fight against Kyle, and it was his fault for carrying a lethal weapon that they died, totally ignoring that they should have just NOT attacked him, and that's infinitely more reasonable than banning open carry.
but why speculate "what happened before?" we SEE it in them burning a dumpster trying to move it into a building but his ppl extinguish it, making them (rioters) mad.
These people Destiny is debating are unbelievable to listen to. They get asked a very specific question, and they can’t ever give a yes or no answer to anything. But somehow they all have a yes or no answer to whether Kyle was justified in shooting those people. How can someone give a yes or no about kyles situation and not give a yes or no to whether the Korean rooftop militias were justified? It’s like these people all realize that they can’t justify their opinion, so they won’t even give a yes or no to a basic question. I honestly have no idea how Destiny has the patience to even talk to these people for more than 5 minutes They all try so hard to avoid even getting to points of agreements on the most basic concepts. It sounds like they don’t even have principles they just decide arbitrarily
Ben Reilly asking if the rooftop militia were justified in defending the community property is not a double barreled question at all. It’s a simple yes or no, and then after getting an answer on that you can discuss why or why not. The only thing it’s about is whether those people had a moral right to defend that property. Most of these questions aren’t being ignored because they are “loaded”. These are simple questions about a specific event. It’s no more loaded than asking if Kyle was justified in being where he was.
@@BenReillySpydr1962 these aren't trick questions at all, he is trying to see if he's arguing is bad faith by changing it Koreans because this guy thinks kyle is a white nationalist, his thoughts aren't consistent because he has a bias and Steven is trying to find out what he truly believes,, because of the questions he eventually got there
@@Tyler-lr6fq It is if youre ideologically motivated. This has shown me, I jumped the gun on destiny when I saw him do a debate and everyone else he's argued argues how I thought he did.
@@majdjinn5042 Sorry I actually don't know which part you're responding to, can't tell if you agree with me or disagree. The problem is that people view these questions all as traps or debate tactics, when in reality they are mostly just straightforward attempts to determine that person's fundamental ideas or principles. Every judgement someone makes is based off of certain principles, and most of these people try so hard to resist developing or showing a set of principles that they follow. Sometimes I don't like the way Destiny debates, but oftentimes his arguments are logically sound. And usually when I disagree with Destiny on something it's because of a fundamental difference in principles or beliefs, not because his argument doesn't make sense. The big problem is these guys spend 45 minutes trying to muddy the water about what they think so they make it impossible to even begin making arguments or appeals. They don't even want to define a baseline level of beliefs or principles so how are you ever going to have a real discussion with them. This is the difference between good and bad faith. Good faith is trying to find a consistent truth. Bad faith is arguing for a position that you want to be true, but you have to make sacrifices or inconsistencies to take that position.
I think the important thing is that if Kyle was in a group of people, white or Korean, and he was manning a post with other armed people.. this situation never would have played out this way. It's not like one Korean guy "defended his business" by walking around with a gun alone harassing protesters.
@@Michael_Paul585 probably true, but they overcharged him with murder to let him get off. I'd like to see whomever owns the gun charged with murder because a minor killed someone with their gun. His militia buddies I think are morally culpable, for letting a kid go off on his own with a gun in a sketchy area/situation.
It looked to me like he grabbed a fire extinguisher to put out a commercial trash bin that had been lit on fire and was being pushed towards the gas station. That seemed to be what pissed on Rosenbaum in the first place.
Why is Destiny fine with Govt buildings being destroyed. Aren't they part of my community? Don't most people pay taxes that pay for that property or will be used to repair the property? Dont these buildings sometimes provide essential services that could impact the livelihood of some people?
Finally someone defending him even tho they don’t agree politically . It’s such a clear cut case of self defense. He showed amazing restraint . People are so ignorant on this . If it was a liberal at a conservative riot .. oh man! This dude would be a hero!!!! Lmao
I dont know man. He turned up to a large scale event to defend property that wasnt his and there was no expectation of it being targeted. That sounds like he wanted to use his weapon to me. I also cant understand the self defense argument here because having an open carry gun anywhere with potential for friction is a pretty strong threat.
Bert thompson it’s not about if you like having open carry or being a threat to people. The only thing that should matter is if he was being attacked. The guy chasing him and right next to him there is a guy with a gun (first shooting) and the guy shoots , so Kyle turns around sees the kid running at him still he shoots . He instantly stops is freaking out trying to help . Obviously not a threat or a mass shooter . People than decide to start chasing him. He’s running , they say let’s beat his as and he trips , and people run at him to kick him, hit him on the head with a skateboard , and one has a gun out at him. If you watch the replay slow; he never shot anyone without being at arms length away and only as much as needed . He ever didn’t shoot the guy with the gun until he charged him. He stopped . Walked back , still Kyle didn’t shoot . Then the guy lunges forward and Kyle finally shoots him one . And he instantly gets up to run away again when he can. Mind you there are shots going off like crazy so he thinks he’s still about to die but he doesn’t shoot anymore cuz no one is right up on him . Idk man weather you agree or not with politics or him having a gun or anything it’s really clear it’s self defense.. he showed more restraint with his shooting than most would I think ..
@@oxysz no. If i push you are you justified in punching me? If i represent a deadly threat, having a gun at an argument, am i justified in disarming you? The onus was on that kid to not be the aggressor which could have only been done if he left the gun at home.
This is the 4th content creator (at least) that Vaush and his radical Marxist degenerate trash audience has cancelled for being “counter revolutionary” against their utopian cult.
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p Vaush released a video saying he wasnt happy and posted on Destiny's Reddit. If people from his community did this it wasnt because Vaush wanted it.
I just can't wrap my head around these arguments about community. Since when did you need to fill requirements to help someone in need? I don't see anything wrong with him defending the gas station, even if he came from 1000 miles away. I don't know serfs at all, but this is how i see him. a) Guy makes a decent living with really low investment(makes youtube videos with relatively cheap equipment) b) Doesn't understand what it's like to own a gas-station/small store where you have to invest ton of money considering the low income it gives you. If you take a loan, open up a gas-station, its not 2-5 years when you have paid the loan off, probably more around 15-30 years.
We live in a world where there is a lot of time and money and effort online to demonize black people, demonize protests and protestors, and to go as far as to encourage violence and killing against peaceful protests. Look how common it is these days for people and even cops now to just hit peaceful protestors with their vehicle. Related to this is the increasing problem of “the right” to now show up to any event they don’t like with guns and threatening violence. People who believe all protests everywhere are never peaceful and it’s all just violent lefty thugs who hate America and cops and want to do harm. This is the environment we are currently in and that doesn’t even address the core of the protests which is the constant unjust killing of black people by cops for things white people seem to either get away with or not usually killed for. This is the context behind this current event and why everyone is so heated. The only thing I know to be true is this kid had no business being there with a gun. He as in over his head and as a result people died. I don’t support any violent protestors but last I checked, vigilantes are also illegal and people showing up with open carry rifles tend to make situations worse, not better.
@@hermithouse I agree that 17y olds shouldn't be guarding businesses with guns, but his age wasn't factor in this case. From what i've seen in recordings, this kid handled the situation better than most 20-30y old would have handled it. He tried to leave the scene and he shot the attackers only when they reached point blank. They say the gas station owner called for help online, so he had business to be there (he shouldn't have been there due his age, but he had legitimate purpose being there). Only thing he did, was put out a trash fire which the rioters were pushing towards the gas station and rioters got mad and attacked him. He probably even knew that the rioters might get mad when he uses fire extingisher on the ablazed trash which they are pushing towards the gas station, but you can't say it's his fault. No matter how legitimate reasons you have for protests, there is not a single cause that gives people the right to destroy private property.
Lance is saying that killing over property is always wrong. Is it though? People sacrificed years to acquire assets. Assets can be replaced but it's at the expense of someone. If you can stop someone from doing any damage to assets then it's a good thing. All the money that would have been used for insurance purposes could go to other things.
People get so bothered by destiny's rape analogies, but honestly they seem completely fair the way he goes about them... It makes sense to use them in order to convey the idea he's trying to get across... I feel like the people who get bothered by it are like the same sorts of people who look at an Ancient Greek or renaissance statue or something and giggle because there's an exposed breast or penis...
Yeah... I think making up hypothetical situations to get a point across is too abstract for a lot of people. So they end up hearing a word like “rape” and freak out that someone dare compare the debated topic to rape. It’s ridiculous.
@@jeremias-serus Yeah! I'm still at the stage of wanting to see what people are saying, I figure it takes two more minutes just to type a response- plus people seem to appreciate it o7
The Serfs knows where his argument goes wrong but he won’t admit it.
You should see the clip he opens with when he uploaded this on his channel, trying to make Destiny look like he's the idiot.
@White-Van Helsing It's the first video result when you search "destiny the serfs" on UA-cam
Right out the gate?
Dudes is so bad faith. Least favorite member of the support group
@@brandonislemons I can’t tell anymore who’s more bad faith, serfs or Vaush, after the Kenosha incident it’s a close tie 🤣
This other guy moderating between the two is a nice touch, very cool calm and collective
Thanks man, I'll try to keep that up through any future ones.
*collected?
@@DiesOften1847 didnt realise we were exposing him today
@@BookSmarts I subscribed to your channel in hopes of a future show with you moderating. People would surely enjoy it.
@@weetubrida for sure! I've got some stuff in the works along those lines, stay tuned 😊
The entire discussion was predicated on the false supposition that Kyle "killed someone over property". This is false. He was there defending property, but he only shot in defense of his own person. He didn't shoot anyone to defend property.
This hasn't aged well either. We now know that Kyle didnt bring the gun across state lines either
Yes. It's similar to "I don't think it is proportionate to kill someone who throws a plastic bag at you". Some ancillary detail is used to complicate the simple situation. He said he was defending property -> it is wrong to kill to defend property-> he was in the wrong. A similar argument would be - He said he was there to give first aid -> it is wrong to shoot people to give first aid -> he was in the wrong.. You have to wonder how these people manage this in their brains
@@magrathean0 Simple, by not knowing all the factual shit inbetween the talking head points. As far as the dumb lefty people online know, Kyle Rittenhouse, a white nationalist and member of the anti-black Kenosha Guard, took his fully-automatic military rifle across state lines, driven by his equally racist mother. He lied about being a medic and his age. Then him and his boogaloo boys racist friends went out looking for trouble and found 3 black guys to shoot, one while he was lay down, and one guy survived though he was shot while surrendering. Then Kyle went to pose with white nationalist proud boys and walked out of the courthouse before the seat got warm because he was white.
Some are slightly more knowledgeable but still wrong. They might know it's not full-auto. They might know it was white guys (but still call him a white supremacist). They might know he was provoked first (but still claim it was just a bag is why he shot 3 people). The sad part is these are MIGHTS. There are plenty of people who don't even know THIS much. I saw big name news like MSNBC claiming he fired 60 rounds full-auto into a crowd and killed 3 black people.
In reality, all of that is false except his name. But they don't care about that, they care that it's a good story. They don't care to look into the random little details that get brought up, because that might make the whole narrative fall apart.
@@magrathean0 It's simple obfuscation. They know if that if they have to deal with the reality that Kyle was about to be maimed or killed by the rioters who were attacking him, they will have no other choice than to admit that Kyle had no other choice than to shoot to defend his life. Bringing up the state lines and property defense nonsense is all a ploy to avoid dealing with the issue.
I also like how everyone ignores that Kyle likely saved dozens of people's lives and saved the BLM protest movement as a whole. Rosenbaum was pushing a flaming dumpster towards a gas station surrounded by dozens innocent protesters, after he told people to kill him and said he wanted to hurt people. So his intentions were incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention, a gas station explosion can be massive, it easily could've killed or injured 30+ people with how many people were closely surrounding the station. Luckily Kyle comes up and puts the fire out, likely saving dozens of people and the BLM movement (Had the gas station gone up and killed dozens of people, then the BLM protest movement likely would've died right there as it would've been one of the worse mass murder in recent history.). But as a result of saving those people he was attacked and had to defend his own life, then others take it upon themselves to be vigilantes and attack Kyle. I always find it hugely hypocritical when people criticise Kyle saying he is being a vigilante, but then ignore the vigilantism of the 2 others that Kyle shot that actually resulted in needless death.
It's amazing how quickly people will ignore really key parts of the situation for the sake of taking an ideological stance on things like guns and vigiliantism of perceived conservatives (Cause we all know that if it's BLM or some other oppressed group, then vigilantism is considered ok).
All hail Booksmarts the anger management coach.
He lost the battle, but not the war.
The thing is The Serfs just isn't that smart. His video on Michael Brown was so bad he had to delete it.
the Hands up, don't shoot - guy? jesus, let me guess, the cop just executed him, according the now deleted video?
This is a week old. Editor needs to pick up the pace
They won't have any choice now that Destiny's moving to UA-cam.
(JIC someone reading this isn't up to speed, his Twitch partnership was revoked for 'encouraging violence', though in classic Twitch fashion specifics were not given).
@@atiim6751 whaaaa, really? That seams unreal. If I had to guess, it probably has to do with being a-ok with burning government property
@@disguisedpeanutbutter8334
It is about the mowing down rioters
Now that you’ve said that, I’ll all-but guarantee the editor will give us a three day period of rapid uploads like they always do
@@greyhound4204 this is probable, but unconfirmed homie, there is no confirmation on the reason
51:20
Bro, the way he left out the key part of that statement to try and make Destiny's statement as inflammatory as possible has got to be one of the biggest weasel moves I've ever seen.
Yep. Lance is a scumbag and that moment is perfect proof as to why.
Serf's got outed in his "debate" trainwreck vs actual justice warrior. It was a total bloodbath against him.
Rip partnership
He had it coming. He gave too hot of a take. I am with him on allot of his takes but the way he phrased that take even if there is a nugget of truth there could easily be interpreted as condoning violence.
@@travelerfinder7840 Isn't there a difference between inciting violence ("I want all of you to go out in the streets and kill rioters") and hyperbolic language though?
Parched Pinemarten Under the law, yeah. Under most TOS? Probably not.
@@ParchedPinemarten I totally agree there is a difference between the two. Not everybody picks up that he is being hyperbolic though. Us as fans will pick it up.
I have a destiny filter in my brain and hear him making a case for the riots hurting our elections victory chances and reaffirming his position on private property defense
Others hear him condoning violence. which is an easy interpretation if you already don't like him.
Traveler Finder Saying the riots are justified is literally condoning violence.
Saying you support people defending their property legally as allowed under the law is NOT condoning violence. And to conflate the two is utterslly fucking ridiculous.
Fun talk! Sorry to hold back the beast guys
That's what made it fun. Yah done good, kid.
this feels like Yamato holding back Naruto from going full 9 tails mode
You're the guy! "Good Obama", as Destiny referred to you. You did a great job! I really appreciated your involvement.
Book Smarts, a sanity check question, was TheSerfs implying at the end that business owners are rich enough to withstand any losses from burning down their business?
i love u booksmarts :)
How to dodge answering questions - Ft. TherSerfs
Man i wonder if thats because he deals with lefties on a daily basis and he knows that those same lefties will EAT anything they can get hold of including their own, for anything thats taken out of context.
As a lefty, I would tell lance the spineless that if you dont want people dying over property then tell those people to not attack property.
I don’t think if someone is burning down your house you are thinking “how is this going to optically affect the BLM movement” you will be thinking “holy shit why are these people burning down my fucking house.”
"Hmm but will terminally online lefties think I'm racist if I cap these BLM ANTIFA morons attempting to burn down my store, let me sit and ponder"
Feels like most of the conversation was irrelevant as Kyle didn’t kill anyone over property. He did it to preserve his own life after he was chased, cornered, and threatened. He had more right to be there than the people attacking him.
Exactly! Any discussion of "defending property with lethal force" is COMPLETELY irrelevant as that is NOT what happened in this case. It was a case of a 17 year old young man defending his life against 3 rioters with criminal records. Discussing ANYTHING else besides those brief encounters is pointless and irrelevant.
Lance doesn't understand that you can be part of a community and not know everyone. Look at how many people help after natural disasters.
You don't even have to think that hard. Doesn't he consider himself part of the lefty community? Does he know everyone in it?
I love how lefties are all about solidarity but they are against showing solidarity when it comes to defending someone elses property. Why exactly should I not be allowed to help someone else protect their existence?
Typically, because they don't consider a person's property to be synonymous with their existence. The phrase "It's just stuff" is pretty informative here. For some, the word "property" probably carries some tricky connotations, either referring to replaceable personal property or unjust and bourgeois private property. Finally, the left usually doesn't believe in solidarity irrespective of the cause; and the social climate probably leads many to feel like "defense of property" is likely to be weaponized against themselves. Not arguing for any of these viewpoints, just trying to describe what I think is going on. There are some real potential inconsistencies in there.
There’s only one rule that they are appealing to: Our side good their side bad
I had a really good sandwich today, I hope you all get to eat one as well!
Thank you, Sandwich Man. ☺
Thank you so much Mr. man. I am looking forward to one.
BLT???
solid comment
i did actually
Can we get a destiny vs vaush debate with destiny’s caretaker, booksmarts
nahh destiny and vaush screaming at each other is funny as fuck. dumb but hilarious
@@SwiftyNinjaas We need more bloodsports TBH, its gotten a bit stale with these lefties
Content creators should stop plat forming radical Marxist degenerate trash like Vaush. This is now the 4th (at least) content creator Vaush’s cult has tried to cancel for being counter revolutionary against their utopian cult.
@@danielbertrand6675
They should probably also stop defending people who take guns to protests with political aims and end up killing people.
This sounds incredibly stressful lol
Dear Lance: "I spent ten years of my life building This Property; if you threaten This Property then you are threatening those ten years of my life"
... basically the last point:
The serfs: i'll propably defend a dogs life to the death
Destiny: are you vegan?
The serfs: no
-> Sums it up, perfectly
Does the TheSerfs ever get tired of Losing. He is crushed in every debate, discussion or chat. The guy is wrong about everything all the time.
He still hasn’t lmao.
Update: still hasn't
“I’d be out of my depth if I tried to talk to you about deep philosophical subjects, like normative and prescriptive claims”
Serfs 2020
This "its just things" part hurts me man. These people dont understand what it feels like when you have nothing and know one. They think objects can just be replaced. Bro the people destiny talks to have no idea what they are talking about.
Man, watching this stuff is rough sometimes. It's like 40 minutes of talking just trying to clarify if property is worth killing over. Jesus, like pulling teeth.
That's kind of the point of this kind of thing though. If you can get down to the root of each argument to just the most basic pieces that each side can agree to, you can use those to build up and get to the real argument. From there you can just and see whose tower topples the quickest. It really is the only fair way to play, as much as it is like pulling teeth.
To be fair-this isn't necessarily about if property is worth killing over... But whether the guy felt like he was in danger-which you can argue, because he got charged and had his gun grabbed several times PRIOR to his attempt to run to the cops.
"How to train your Destiny". Props to Booksmarts.
At first i didn't like the serfs, then I did, now I don't.
How about Destiny always liked him or also up and down? Cus that's exactly how I felt with Destiny 😂
His video on jontron kinda rubbed me the wrong way, it just came off as “hey look jontron is a centralist, remember when he was in the alt-right 3 years ago” and idk just came off as “I am virtues”
@@jusnogood1715 you are thinking to much about that incignificant part, it's kind of a who cares
Juuk well, I mean his whole reason for making the jontron vid was a meme that Jon posted
Just kind of came off as a low-blow, sorta like bringing up the pew die pie bridge incident
Destiny, your own followers are going to hunt you down. You need to watch out having fair and balanced opinions.
@Deeky 123 Yeah, in this case his opinions are pretty okay.
@Deeky 123 I'm not actually conservative.
@Deeky 123 I don't think that's a qualifier for being conservative. I'm more centrist leaning left.
@Deeky 123 "peaceful protesters"
I think this whole hoopla boils down to a really simple thing - "He is not from my tribe". You can agree on every single point, ideology or idea and then return back to that case and meet the same "But he shot protesters though. Protesters - my tribe, good tribe. He bad."
Hearing the Serfs speak on this is just so sad and so tough I couldn't do it //// Thank god Destiny carries the torch for us all, stay strong buddy your mental will always be tested
All of the debates I’ve seen covering this seem to ignore what ignited the situation in the first place, which was Kyle extinguishing a dumpster that had been set on fire and was about to be pushed into a gas station. This was part of the New York Times recap of the situation. After putting out this fire several members of the mob started chasing him down, which lead to the confrontation that resulted in the initial shooting. After this Kyle freaks out for a bit while the daily caller journalist administered aid to the shot guy, Kyle calls someone to tell them what happened and he starts to flee the area. This is when the others set upon him, they catch up to him and throw him on the ground. He shoots at the guy who pulled him down twice, misses, and that guy fucks off. The other two guys keep coming after him, one with a gun, and he shoots them. He then gets up and runs until he reaches the police, who apparently told him to gtfo and then he was arrested at home the next day.
What’s the point of debating Lance? He doesn’t stand by anything he says and all his arguments are backed up by a vague moral framework that don’t have any defined principles.
People > Property is his principle
@@BenReillySpydr1962 Kyle didnt kill people when he was defending property, Kyle killed when people aggressively attack Kyle
Lance will literally agree with whatever viewpoint is trending amongst his far-left circles. It’s pathetic. I don’t understand how he feels confident enough to debate anyone, let alone destiny.
Damn this is old news already
I thought this had already been posted including the pre discussion with book smarts. Am I losing my mind?
@@ataridc on another channel
RIP destiny partnership
How do you argue against "It goes by a case to case basis" when asking about a concrete idea on the core of the argument.....
Because he is implying that the specifics of each instance really matter when attempting to discern the definition of community. I don't think it's unreasonable.
Lesage Gaming should a 3rd party be able to determine what you can or cannot consider “your community”?
@@erichooper2794 Yeah, but by the very least, if that argument was going to be used in court and defined in law.... Should't someone at least live in a community or have familial ties to a community to use the argument "I was defending my community!" Or I could literally say that any community that I have passed through and have taken a liking to are "My community" which doesn't really work out as well does it?
riperino boys.
this will be the new headquarters
Any idea of timestamp of the thing he got banned for?
It takes me 10 mins to drive to work is that not part of my community
That's going to depend on whether they agree with you politically.
1. The weapon never crossed state lines 2. Nobody yet know WHY Joseph was chasing Kyle 3. Whatever happened b4, Kyle was obviously trying to disengage 4. Richie Mcguiness the closest eyewitness, saw Joseph lunge for Kyles gun. 5. Grabbing the weapon of an armed person is obviously a very aggressive and threatening act
"No, she's brandishing the gun and saying 'no one can enter my vagina' or I'll shoot you" -- Destiny, a girl's name, 2020
Rip partnership, where my DaFellas at
What happened?
?
Sadge
the magic chanch shell What? No he was never for deplatforming people and he would have anyone on because he’s super pro free speech. And he’s been shitting on crazy lefties since like 2016 but
@the magic chanch shell yea "the truth" idiot take it's a international platform go tell EU about your take and watch them throw up
12 min in and I'm already done.... he can't even say yes or no to a specific question.
The serfs is garbage.
Agreed man he made a very simple scenero yes or no. There was no other part of the question.
When people don't want to answer a question, it means they have a particular disagreement about the narrative behind the question, not that they *can't* answer necessarily. Destiny did interviews with Jesse Lee Peterson and Jesse flung tons of yes-or-noes at Steven and those were unanswerable because the narratives were feces.
(Cont.) Not that I'm saying Steven's narratives were feces, just that Serfs wants to go contrary, and if he has an intellectual justification for it, let him make his appeal to truth and hear whatever his arguments are. We are here to be critical thinkers aren't we?
@@vikuswavy5785 I would agree with you when it comes to complex and or even simple broad lines of questioning. As an example "Is war bad?"..... yeah sometimes...? But his question was very specific and not answering in a yes or no just seemed grimy to me. That being said; I'm sure most of you would consider my political opinions to be "far right". I come to his streams to try and understand the other side.
I really like that there's this Lance individual as a moderator. Otherwise it's just goes in same shit loop and it's hair-pullingly annoying.
(moderator/anger management coach here) Thanks for the comment! "Lance" is actually just The Serfs' real name.
@@BookSmarts i think you being in the debates makes it so much better, Destiny seems to go slower with you there and i think it will improve his debate skills having you there
Lance has come a long way from Defending [Redacted] from [Redacted]. Really appreciate the work Lance has been doing.
@@BookSmarts You're so fucking good at this dude. Seriously, I watch a ton of Destiny vods, and I feel like everyone he debates ends up running their own argument in circles, and it's just 3 hours of restating the same shit. You're good at moving the conversation forward, and clearing up confusion. Good work man!!
Lance is moderating because he's glad he doesn't have to take part in the discussion either. Saw him just discuss this topic against Sitch and Adam Unfriended and it was just a display of how to be a weaseling shit 101.
Hey I have an example. What about a family of say, Indian immigrants. Maybe their last name would be Khindri or something. What if they had a business, or three, and one of them had already been completely burned to the ground. Would they be allowed to ask for assistance in protecting the last of their livelihood?
The thing is, i don't think it matters WHY he was there in the first place! The right to defend property argument etc isn't even relevant because in the video (it could be argued in another scenario but imo its unrelated to the discussion as to if he was justified to shoot) , Unless there was some crazy context that we havent seen, Kyle was running away. He wasn't actively defending property he was treating and attacked. He wasn't shooting to top anyone from damaging property because he was actively retreating and didn't shoot until other shots were fired and he (in my opinion) had a valid reason to believe he was in danger to the extent he needed to protect his life.
Some people use property vs life as an argument to condemn Kyle at the moment he made good on his intent to come there armed to defend property. It's not at all relevant to self defense, I agree, and it's frustrating that people think this argument invalidates the self defense argument. You might be interested in a video I did going through these (I'm the 'mod' in this talk)
Book Smarts I’m looking for some new content to watch so I will do!! Thanks :)
Book Smarts also yikes I only just realised how many typos I made. I’m surprised you could make out what I was saying lol. I blame the child I had in my arms
I love new destiny. Thank you booksmarts for being a positive influence on my boi.
You=♿
Selma Brinx T R U E
To be fair he has always had this stance. He's done debates on this exact topic before with the same point of view
@@nateworthy530 obviously his stances haven't changed but the way he words things is much better. Destiny seems to be allergic to hyperbole except when he's shitting on his own chat.
Yea making it a point to defend right wing shootings is so much better, fuck everything thing else. This is the content I like. I only get down with content that talks about how lefties are crazed individuals that should be shot
This guy is auch a weasle. There are two distinct questions he is intentionally conflating to paint Kyle as morally unjustified. First question is, did Kyle have a moral justification to be there in defence of property. The second question is, was Kyle morally justified to defend himself with lethal force against a threat to his own life, NOT to property. The Serfs is intentionally conflating these two when he talks about how lethal force is never justified in defence of property. THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED! It's either a bad faith debate tactic or intellectually dishonest.
These past 4 years have been quite the journey for Destiny
A tragic decline into becoming what he once hated most. Bigly tremendously sad
@@ChillAssTurtle Truuuuue
Chill ass turtle what is that?
@@bossman879 he's white.
remember the sc2 days when he would berate people after ZvZ's, calling them faggots, lol... the good old carpet cleaning days
Day 2 of asking for dono sound to be changed back to the “bing” sound
It blows my mind how obvious a self defense situation can be and progressives would still question it.
Lance starts by saying he’s not a detective. This is always his problem bc that doesn’t stop him from forming and broadcasting his opinions. He doesn’t get that if he’s gonna spout opinions about something, he has a responsibility to learn what tf it’s actually about first.
Kyle didn't kill in defense of someone else's property, he killed in self defense. Why didn't Destiny hammer him on this cause Lance kept reverting to that.
"It's wrong to defend property!"
Ok. Let's imagine a bunch of klansmen are burning down black owned businesses.
If Kyle wanted to defend these black businesses from the klan would you still be upset? If the answer is no, then this was never about property.
These kinds of people can't engage with hypotheticals. Either out of stupidity or fear you'll point out how stupid they are. They'd just say "WHAT?? YOU'RE COMPARING BLM TO THE KKKLAN??" or "Well only a black person would shoot the Klan and he'd be found guilty because he's black and america hates black people"
The more i see destiny the more he reminds me of a old man trying the unstand the world.
Darth Destiny will be a right-wing millionaire or billionaire backed debater in a year from now.
@Jack Absolutely. In fact, anyone with even so much as a butterknife is a neo-nazi in my opinion. I only eat with wooden spoons.
Oof
Lol not far off honestly
You could feel Booksmarts' frustration bubbling up by the 5th time he repeated that they should move on from property defense.
Kyle lived about 15 minutes away. The owner/s of a small group of stores were afraid their businesses were going to be destroyed and asked Kyle and a couple other people to stand watch and protect their stores. I believe the owner is a friend of his family. He also brought emergency supplies and helped people who had been hurt and had water he gave out.
I have a natural, innate right to self preservation. Defense of property is an extension of that right. Defense of community is also an extension of that right.
I think what happened before Kyle was retreating, there was a video showing a dumpster on fire and someone used a fire extinguisher on the dumpster fire that pissed off a couple of rioters. We can't see if it was Kyle that out out the fire, but we see Kyle running around with a fire extinguisher. It is probably what kicked off the confrontation.
imagine TheSerfs is a judge and the defendant saw a group of bullies beat somebody unconscious and shot them. Then TheSerfs says: "but how did you know that they werent just about to leave after beating him unconscious? Unless they are about to kill him WHICH YOU CANT KNOW you have no right to help him. Especially since he was just a stranger and not like your brother."
Can we please get a new arc, this is getting stale
UA-cam streamer arc Pog
@@antoniosoares9273 Going down that Vaush road. Shame
This is a week old
Who is the guy who comes in to calm Destiny down?
That would be me!
It really needs to be acknowledged more just how damn good Destiny is at building solid arguments.
Lol where did you find this clown ? You had him on his heels from the 1st question. If you want a real conversation get back to me. You let him get you away from the point of self defense not defending property . Kyle was running for his life heard a gun shot and shot the man chasing him. The other people had him on the ground kicking him and hitting him in the head with a skate board . ✌❣
Dumpster fire. Wasn’t he chased for putting out a dumpster fire?
Pretty sure it wasn't him. Didn't look like him in the video anyway.
@randomer1432 it was Rosenbaum who went after him. And what about that scenario is especially far fetched? They are on video visibly upset than Kyle put out the fire and Rosenbaum makes an open threat as well about taking their guns
@@justingutierrez233 That would only justify shooting rosenbaum though. The other 2 people only knew that somebody was shot and that the guy responsible was running away. At that point, from their viewpoint, they could also make the case that they were just trying to disarm kyle to protect their community, aka the other protesters... But that for some reason is not applied to them. I dont think that letting kyle get away so easily is a meaningful point here. But here is a better one. A bunch of armed black folks show up at charlottesville, just to protect all those nice white liberal allies counterprotesting...Shit escalate in a similar way... How do the black folks end up? I am quite sure they would not be able to get away this easy.
Serfs lost his spine again
he’s never had one to begin with since the last debate
Putting yourself in harms way doesn't mean you lose the right to self defence, if that was the case then cops couldn't defend themselves. This just isn't true.
Long story short kyle inocent.
Only if you are not using Wisconsin law to make such a decision
@@jloiben12 Aged well. Wisconsin law says he's innocent. As would anyone who read Wisconsin law and watched the video that came out day of, it contains literally EVERYTHING you need for the ruling, because the provocation is actually irrelevant.
Destiny why dont you ask these guys if youre allowed to hire security to protect your business. Money would be the only seperating factor calling in a paid guard or calling community to help protect
Ah factorio we've come so far.
Lance from the serfs isn't a very smart guy
This whole argument is bad faith on TheSerfs.
"If it's not destiny saying it it's bad faith" ~ DesTINY shill
the serfs does not seem to be arguing in bad faith here. i feel like his arguments are more based on feelings, and he is kind of "discovering" his principles as they go along. I dont think he was aware of his position "you should never kill for property" when the conversation started.
he should be less weary of getting "gotcha'd", because it makes the otherwise good conversation seem really hostile.
the only thing i might interpret as bad faith was the "you are the real class reductionist, focusing on material conditions" (because its either really stupid or bad faith), but he probably just thought of it (or saw it in chat or something) and threw it out there.
i dont think is bad faith as much as people are not really used to this kind of isolated point-by-point discussion, and destiny tends to assume people are, thats why when lance jumps in you can clearly see a shift in the tone of the conversation towards a more understanding approach where as destiny would have screamed at him for not understanding what he was getting at.
The serfs is just not good at debating and is less aware of what he's talking about than he realizes. It shows in the few debates I've seen of him
@Nspnspker I dont personally agree with your example but i can see where you are coming from, i think the reason he chooses these hills to die on is because he at some level hates the idea of agreeing to much with any political ideology a likes to think of himself as free thinker, which is kinda stupid if you ask me.
in any case, i think you might have misinterpreted the point i was making, i was defending the serfs, not destiny, by pointing out that they weren't arguing in bad faith and yet without lance it would have become another shouting match cause destiny tends to assume people are bad faith when they are not familiar or used to the type of discussions he usually has.
it was Destiny
Chat Comment: An armed kid has no right to run around with a gun, he did more damage then good...
Me: oh I don't know about that he killed a pedophile and almost blew off the arm of a woman beater... sounds like a productive night.
The guy shot in the arm had some clash in with police before but was not a felon, and had the right to conceal carry. The woman beating also applies to the national hero Kyle, just look it up. Also its a bunch of lazy right wing papers that make this claim, and woman beating (in his case his sister) is actually attributed to the guy shot in the abdomen - lazy reading on your behalf. Rosenbaum however was indeed a rotten apple. The guy shot in the arm not so much, the guy shot in the abdomen had some mental issues according to snopes.
@@ktaikamatika1397 Having the right to conceal carry doesn't give you the right to attempt to apprehend someone fleeing. You do not have legal justification to chase someone down who was defending themselves from someone who is ,by your own admission, a "rotten apple". Not only that but I don't think you're morally justified in doing so. Anyone who ran to the defence of the bad apple got what they had coming logically, morally and justifiably. I 100% stand by my statement. We lost no one of importance that night and Kyle did right by himself and his community. You want to LARP social justice hero then you attract people who want to LARP GI Joe. Frankly I'm more then happy to let these people deal with each other. But long story short if I was a betting man , my money is on GI Joe.
@@leganzar7831 citizen's arrest could apply, since from Gaige's/Huber's perspective the kid was a murderer (at that time). I did not say conceal carry gave him any right to pursue, but 'citizen's arrest' could justify it from their perspective. I would not defend rosenbaum, since he obviously assauled the kid (his pedophilia is irrelevant here, even though it is pretty terrifying for sure), but Huber and Gaige could be viewed as simply trying to apprehend him from their own knowledge of the situation and perspective (and them being dumb, I give you that). Also Gaige seems to be doing something wierd as he has his handgun pulled out but at the same time he holds both of his hands up trying to approach the bleeding Huber, as Gaige was a paramedic with a first aid kit. Still Gaige can only be accused of being dumb, but he did not assault Kyle, and it is obvious from the tape. He could be percieved as a threat with his handgun pulled yes, but the fact that he had ample of time to just shoot Kyle beforehand (the tape clearly shows a clean 6-10~ seconds where he could have just shot him). Needless to say, after his biceps got dismantled, he said (out of anger) that he regretted not loading the magazine into the kid. It was a shitty night triggered by rosenbaum's aggression and recklessness.
@@ktaikamatika1397 fun LARP, they attacked a person that person defended themselves. I don't care how justified they felt. If I think I'm doing the right thing when I'm burning down a neighborhood I'm not a good person by virtue of thinking it so. So does citizens arrest apply to white dudes who think a black dude raped a woman? I mean they think he did, let's beat him with skateboards boys! No right?
@@leganzar7831 Its wierd you bring up an example that actually occurs pretty often, tho not in a rape situation. Rayshard Brooks was shot by police RUNNING away (aka not presenting a threat anymore, tho he stole a taser before that, true). Walter Scott got shot unarmed by police, running away (he was totally unarmed). Jacob Blake was shot 7 times by the police, simply for not complying, but presenting no threat. Ahmad Aubery was "citizen arrested" then killed by white folks, he was unarmed, and the CA was not warranted by any circumsctance, other than the 2 white folks thinking he was a burglar. I could go on but instead I would address another statement of yours: "If I think I'm doing the right thing when I'm burning down a neighborhood I'm not a good person by virtue of thinking it so." Well, neither Huber nor Gaige were involved in burning anything, and its wierd you would conflate them with Rosenbaum's arsonist behaviour. But in most situations people act on their percieved reality, not with full contextual knowledge. Overall, To answer your core point tho: by law, yes white dudes could CA a supposed rapist (even by force according to CA in many states), the CA however also mentions that in any disproportionate cases, the people carrying out the CA may be held responsible for their use of force in court.
Almost stopped watching destiny because of the kenosha thing until I realized that destiny's arguments are sound and ultimately probably right but it made me incredubly uncomfortable to agree with him so I wanted to pretend he was wrong and almost didn't do the self reflection necessary to see past my initial uncomfort
Nice one bro
that's called a red pill, it's a good feeling when you look back months from now after you grow as a person because of it
So, you're starting to be a man. You found your balls. Congrats.
And that process will make you intellectually stronger. The problem is that people sometimes attack what they believe to be the source of the discomfort instead of examining why they are uncomfortable or perhaps struggling with an idea.
The tricky part is that the discomfort or anger is sometimes simply the result of a person just saying an objectively stupid thing. 😉
I completely agree with Destiny's take on all of this but I can understand that sometimes the delivery is a bit... prickly.... which can make it difficult to consider.
just curious, what was it about destiny's premise on the kenosha shooter situation that bothered you? i saw it pretty black and white as a case of self-defense so I've been having a difficult time seeing the other side. I thought vaush's take was disingenuous and found it difficult to take it seriously, but i'd be interested in hearing yours.
Destiny’s nanny really improved this
he is destiny's jamie. its gonna take these conversations to the next level.
I think the scenarios that destiny is giving are very confusing in general. I better way, in my opinion, explain your point would be something like
Scenario: You are driving up to YOUR hardware store (you owe and operate this store)
You see 3-4 people in front of your store with a crowbar, a bat, and the other/s are unarmed.
You yell at them to get away from your shop. They respond that if you don't get involved or try to stop them you won't be hurt.
So you have to option to get into your car and drive away, let them do what they want with your store, or open the glove box of your car where you have an unregistered 9mm.
If you take out the gun and threaten to shoot them, they charge you. Granted they only have 1 crowbar and 1 bat between the 3/4 of them.
Then if they agree that in this scenario you are justified in pulling a gun on them and threatening them you can move on to killing them as self-defense.
If you've gotten to this point you can just switch it to where you are not the owner but just a guy in his parked truck and the owner runs up to you and asks you for help.
Again, in my opinion, this resembles a closer scenario to what actually happened, and its a better way to see where the other person value stand.
And there are conditions in the scenario that are easily interchangeable to show a person that their arguments wouldn't be the same if u just change something.
Ok, can we finish with the Kenosha ark? I don't care anymore.
I think it is kind of done. We have entered the Punished Destiny arc now.
this clip is 6 days old blame DGGTV
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ no dggtv only does lnod, there are 2 editors
@@charbel2921 gotcha, that explains it. DGGTV has always been the superior editor
Nah he likes making it a point to obsess over it because it brings in so many new centrist and right leaning people that love the sight of leftists dying, and they love fantasizing about the same scenarios because people like destiny will defend them even if the intention is to end someone's life
Dear Lance: this is *America.* If you don't want to get in a gun fight then don't fight people who have guns.
The whole point of open carry is so that people *won't* attack you.... because they know you have a *gun.*
So many people like him act like the people doing the criminal act in the first place was just predetermined, and nothing is their fault, and there's nothing they could have done. They argue it all the time when it comes to police shootings. "Why did they shoot him? He only had a knife, they totally could have knocked it out of his hand or something, or used a taser", bitch, if a guy is sprinting at 10 cops with guns drawn so fast they can't even get a taser out, that's not on the cops if they shoot him, that's on him.
So here they're acting like it was just totally natural that someone would throw themselves into a life or death fight against Kyle, and it was his fault for carrying a lethal weapon that they died, totally ignoring that they should have just NOT attacked him, and that's infinitely more reasonable than banning open carry.
i love this anger management coach thingy, please keep doing this dude
S P I N E L E S S E R F S
but why speculate "what happened before?" we SEE it in them burning a dumpster trying to move it into a building but his ppl extinguish it, making them (rioters) mad.
These people Destiny is debating are unbelievable to listen to. They get asked a very specific question, and they can’t ever give a yes or no answer to anything. But somehow they all have a yes or no answer to whether Kyle was justified in shooting those people. How can someone give a yes or no about kyles situation and not give a yes or no to whether the Korean rooftop militias were justified?
It’s like these people all realize that they can’t justify their opinion, so they won’t even give a yes or no to a basic question. I honestly have no idea how Destiny has the patience to even talk to these people for more than 5 minutes
They all try so hard to avoid even getting to points of agreements on the most basic concepts. It sounds like they don’t even have principles they just decide arbitrarily
Destiny will ask *"Compound questions"* that's why.
complex question, trick question, multiple question or plurium interrogationum (Latin, 'of many questions')
1.) www.thoughtco.com/complex-question-fallacy-1689890
2.) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_question
Ben Reilly asking if the rooftop militia were justified in defending the community property is not a double barreled question at all. It’s a simple yes or no, and then after getting an answer on that you can discuss why or why not. The only thing it’s about is whether those people had a moral right to defend that property.
Most of these questions aren’t being ignored because they are “loaded”. These are simple questions about a specific event. It’s no more loaded than asking if Kyle was justified in being where he was.
@@BenReillySpydr1962 these aren't trick questions at all, he is trying to see if he's arguing is bad faith by changing it Koreans because this guy thinks kyle is a white nationalist, his thoughts aren't consistent because he has a bias and Steven is trying to find out what he truly believes,, because of the questions he eventually got there
@@Tyler-lr6fq
It is if youre ideologically motivated.
This has shown me, I jumped the gun on destiny when I saw him do a debate and everyone else he's argued argues how I thought he did.
@@majdjinn5042 Sorry I actually don't know which part you're responding to, can't tell if you agree with me or disagree. The problem is that people view these questions all as traps or debate tactics, when in reality they are mostly just straightforward attempts to determine that person's fundamental ideas or principles. Every judgement someone makes is based off of certain principles, and most of these people try so hard to resist developing or showing a set of principles that they follow.
Sometimes I don't like the way Destiny debates, but oftentimes his arguments are logically sound. And usually when I disagree with Destiny on something it's because of a fundamental difference in principles or beliefs, not because his argument doesn't make sense. The big problem is these guys spend 45 minutes trying to muddy the water about what they think so they make it impossible to even begin making arguments or appeals. They don't even want to define a baseline level of beliefs or principles so how are you ever going to have a real discussion with them. This is the difference between good and bad faith. Good faith is trying to find a consistent truth. Bad faith is arguing for a position that you want to be true, but you have to make sacrifices or inconsistencies to take that position.
Stop letting people say he crossed state lines with a firearm. This is an abject lie. The firearm belonged to his friend who lived in the city.
Destiny, you finally won me over my guy👏 you are truly a good centerist
The rules he is appealing to are, if it's my side then it's justified if it's not then no way.
Let's be real. This guy has a double standard for koreans and Kyle because Kyle is white, period.
I think the important thing is that if Kyle was in a group of people, white or Korean, and he was manning a post with other armed people.. this situation never would have played out this way. It's not like one Korean guy "defended his business" by walking around with a gun alone harassing protesters.
@@Michael_Paul585 probably true, but they overcharged him with murder to let him get off. I'd like to see whomever owns the gun charged with murder because a minor killed someone with their gun. His militia buddies I think are morally culpable, for letting a kid go off on his own with a gun in a sketchy area/situation.
It looked to me like he grabbed a fire extinguisher to put out a commercial trash bin that had been lit on fire and was being pushed towards the gas station. That seemed to be what pissed on Rosenbaum in the first place.
I’m surprised how often this important piece of context is left out of these conversations.
@@JohnusSmittinis Was that widely known the time this conversation took place?
@@MikeTall88 There was video of him running around with the fire extinguisher but not of him actually putting out the fire.
Why is Destiny fine with Govt buildings being destroyed. Aren't they part of my community? Don't most people pay taxes that pay for that property or will be used to repair the property? Dont these buildings sometimes provide essential services that could impact the livelihood of some people?
Finally someone defending him even tho they don’t agree politically . It’s such a clear cut case of self defense. He showed amazing restraint . People are so ignorant on this . If it was a liberal at a conservative riot .. oh man! This dude would be a hero!!!! Lmao
I dont know man. He turned up to a large scale event to defend property that wasnt his and there was no expectation of it being targeted. That sounds like he wanted to use his weapon to me.
I also cant understand the self defense argument here because having an open carry gun anywhere with potential for friction is a pretty strong threat.
Bert thompson it’s not about if you like having open carry or being a threat to people. The only thing that should matter is if he was being attacked. The guy chasing him and right next to him there is a guy with a gun (first shooting) and the guy shoots , so Kyle turns around sees the kid running at him still he shoots . He instantly stops is freaking out trying to help . Obviously not a threat or a mass shooter . People than decide to start chasing him. He’s running , they say let’s beat his as and he trips , and people run at him to kick him, hit him on the head with a skateboard , and one has a gun out at him. If you watch the replay slow; he never shot anyone without being at arms length away and only as much as needed . He ever didn’t shoot the guy with the gun until he charged him. He stopped . Walked back , still Kyle didn’t shoot . Then the guy lunges forward and Kyle finally shoots him one . And he instantly gets up to run away again when he can. Mind you there are shots going off like crazy so he thinks he’s still about to die but he doesn’t shoot anymore cuz no one is right up on him . Idk man weather you agree or not with politics or him having a gun or anything it’s really clear it’s self defense.. he showed more restraint with his shooting than most would I think ..
Bert thompson If you can go watch “ donut operators “ video on this . He has 2 , watch plz with open mind ..?
@@oxysz no....... why would i watch someone elses opinion on this when its just.... an opinion.
@@oxysz no. If i push you are you justified in punching me? If i represent a deadly threat, having a gun at an argument, am i justified in disarming you? The onus was on that kid to not be the aggressor which could have only been done if he left the gun at home.
00:50 serfs is bad faith at all times. 27:00 40:25
You blaming this on Vaush is ridiculous, Destiny.
Pewdiepie Dog Whistles care to elaborate
This is the 4th content creator (at least) that Vaush and his radical Marxist degenerate trash audience has cancelled for being “counter revolutionary” against their utopian cult.
J no Destiny literally told militia groups to “mow down looters”
and got departnered because of that.
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p Vaush released a video saying he wasnt happy and posted on Destiny's Reddit. If people from his community did this it wasnt because Vaush wanted it.
I just can't wrap my head around these arguments about community. Since when did you need to fill requirements to help someone in need? I don't see anything wrong with him defending the gas station, even if he came from 1000 miles away.
I don't know serfs at all, but this is how i see him.
a) Guy makes a decent living with really low investment(makes youtube videos with relatively cheap equipment)
b) Doesn't understand what it's like to own a gas-station/small store where you have to invest ton of money considering the low income it gives you.
If you take a loan, open up a gas-station, its not 2-5 years when you have paid the loan off, probably more around 15-30 years.
We live in a world where there is a lot of time and money and effort online to demonize black people, demonize protests and protestors, and to go as far as to encourage violence and killing against peaceful protests. Look how common it is these days for people and even cops now to just hit peaceful protestors with their vehicle. Related to this is the increasing problem of “the right” to now show up to any event they don’t like with guns and threatening violence. People who believe all protests everywhere are never peaceful and it’s all just violent lefty thugs who hate America and cops and want to do harm. This is the environment we are currently in and that doesn’t even address the core of the protests which is the constant unjust killing of black people by cops for things white people seem to either get away with or not usually killed for. This is the context behind this current event and why everyone is so heated. The only thing I know to be true is this kid had no business being there with a gun. He as in over his head and as a result people died. I don’t support any violent protestors but last I checked, vigilantes are also illegal and people showing up with open carry rifles tend to make situations worse, not better.
@@hermithouse I agree that 17y olds shouldn't be guarding businesses with guns, but his age wasn't factor in this case. From what i've seen in recordings, this kid handled the situation better than most 20-30y old would have handled it. He tried to leave the scene and he shot the attackers only when they reached point blank.
They say the gas station owner called for help online, so he had business to be there (he shouldn't have been there due his age, but he had legitimate purpose being there).
Only thing he did, was put out a trash fire which the rioters were pushing towards the gas station and rioters got mad and attacked him.
He probably even knew that the rioters might get mad when he uses fire extingisher on the ablazed trash which they are pushing towards the gas station, but you can't say it's his fault.
No matter how legitimate reasons you have for protests, there is not a single cause that gives people the right to destroy private property.
This dude doesn't have a consistent viewpoint on anything he says. Much like every person who argues with Destiny on this subject. 100% grifting.
It’s almost as if context matters, or something, and it is stupid and illogical to try and apply a “one size fits all” explanation to it.
Well that is just because Destiny won’t talk to me because my intellectual superiority would show the world how incompetent he is 😉
Lance is saying that killing over property is always wrong. Is it though? People sacrificed years to acquire assets. Assets can be replaced but it's at the expense of someone. If you can stop someone from doing any damage to assets then it's a good thing. All the money that would have been used for insurance purposes could go to other things.
People get so bothered by destiny's rape analogies, but honestly they seem completely fair the way he goes about them... It makes sense to use them in order to convey the idea he's trying to get across... I feel like the people who get bothered by it are like the same sorts of people who look at an Ancient Greek or renaissance statue or something and giggle because there's an exposed breast or penis...
Yeah... I think making up hypothetical situations to get a point across is too abstract for a lot of people. So they end up hearing a word like “rape” and freak out that someone dare compare the debated topic to rape. It’s ridiculous.
35:00 Me: *has watched Destiny for many years* He's going to make a rape analogy isn't he?
35:08 Yup lol I genuinely love it.
"Wait are you vegan?" I lost my shit lmfao
Who is "Good Obama"? Like, what is the guy's name? I heard him at the end of that big Kenosha recap video and I really enjoyed his take.
Hey there, that'd be me! Thanks for the comment about the recap video, it's cool to hear people like chill stuff too
@@BookSmarts stalking comments I see o7
@@jeremias-serus Yeah! I'm still at the stage of wanting to see what people are saying, I figure it takes two more minutes just to type a response- plus people seem to appreciate it o7
@@BookSmarts I subscribed to your channel after you replied. So there's that! 😉
Isn't war defending property that you don't own?
Serfs is an oily snake. Wriggles out of every scenario.
Hey, I’m a law student and would like to talk to you about Kenosha and riots more generally. Lmk if you’re game.
@@ChiefBinChicken Better yet; email him.