TF2's State of Specialists
Вставка
- Опубліковано 24 лют 2017
- There's some concerns and misconceptions surrounding the future of specialist balance, which is what I talk about today.
Very special thanks to my buddy pete for helping me revise and improve a bunch of my script. Additional thanks to the posters of TFTV (ncsm, nite, and everyone else) who helped me accumulate some valve citations on the subject.
/ funkepills
Twitter: / funkepills
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insta: thatfunkedude
5CP is Flawed: • SlinTalk - The 5cp gam...
Interview w/ Robin Walker: • Valve Interview with R...
Interview w/ DRiller: • Interview TF2 Team - D...
Sniper is Better than Spy: bit.ly/2lkCvBc
All SFM was made by myself, excluding the short few seconds of eyelander/chargin targe footage. Which is by The Winglet.
Songs used:
Down Below - OSRS OST
Flight Of Yuri Gagarin - OZMA
soap - Eveline Schuyff / eevee ( / eveline-eevee )
C.R.E.A.M - Wu Tang Clan (Instrumental)
Rusty - Tyler, The Creator (Instrumental)
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better - Annie Get Your Gun (Instrumental) - Ігри
![[TF2] MvM's Worst Class](/img/n.gif)
>Lots of effort
>Good editing
>SFM parts
>Tf2 song parody actually well made
>Good points
>Good video
Nice.
XXX_not_gigli_pro_XXX Xxx_another_xxx_xxX nice name
Slabedaskarn H
trying to greentext on youtube...
fucking cancer
Hachi Roku You destroyed my heart :(
>meme arrows
go back to the tf2 general
Well said, man. Solid editing and sound - good stuff as always.
Gaspar Anticaspa sigh
Gaspar Anticaspa just a little tired of bad puns
SoundSmithTF2 👌👌👌👀
can you cover getting into competetive?
ZAPsYOU!
You're right. I've heard your teammates yell at you if you don't have the META, even if you just joined and had no time to sort your weapons.
I feel like that The Heavy should be the one that pushes the cart twice as fast.
@מגיב בתגובות Honestly, I think heavy can use all the buffs he can get. Spy, Sniper and crits already hard counter him. In my opinion, heavy should be given the faster payload push, as scout is already super useful even without his 2x payload push.
@@WontSmith Even simple things like a faster movement speed when not carrying the Minigun (balanced with slower switch and spinup), a fourth weapon slot for the Sandvich, and the double payload push/control point capture would make Heavy a more useful specialist capable of turning a fight in his favor. He relies too much on teammates just to reach the fight before it ends, and that's worse than useless.
@@SamnissArandeen Agreed. In his current state, a heavy is only as good as his medic.
Samniss Arandeen sounds like cops in superhero movies
Fucker weighs 441 pounds, him sitting on it down a hill should make it go 6x as fast
"If we made pyro more mobile with higher burst damage, he would just be intruding on the role scout was designed for"
Valve: So anyway, we gave pyro a jetpack and a high burst damage weapon.
he can't shoot while using the jetpack and I think the scout still has considerably higher burst so
not really
lol tf2s community has a really hard time thinking sometimes
This video makes it should like all generalists are actually too strong, but thats only true due to 6s format.
Still they will stack these classes despite them dominating all roles in the game (taking an average of 5/6 slots on a team in 6s)
coldeed he literally says this in the video my guy. Something among the lines of “we only have this meta because the mode we play(cp) in comp makes generalists shine as they can both rotate between defense and offense without much trouble”
@@jjakkal_ that's not my point, the fact that they have class limits and bans despite the dominant nature of generalists in CP is forcing a metagame. It's counterintuitive to the purpose of bans
@@anormalstopsign74 nope the dragons fury rivals brass beast in damage output
It's happening, FUNKe is going to be a song parody channel.
He's predicted his own future
and yet he said he said it wasnt good
penelope xd
yeah and the artist was a lesbian
Holy shit i never thought i would see someone with a penelope icon on youtube
Roses are red
Onions have layers
Competitive removed
To confusing for new players...
*Too
too*
too*
too*
two*
This is so sad to watch. None of this discussion about how Valve should support competitive really matters at this point. Since Valve's basically forgotten about the game at this point.
yeah... basically given up on the game
Aaaaaand another braindead attention-seeking idiot! Congratulations, you don't know what the difference is between "a game doesn't need updates every fucking day of the week" and "a company has abandoned the game". Oh, come on, most players are casual, and when there's an exploit they fix it, when there's something wrong they correct it and if something big happens they react in consequence. So yeah, you could just stop being a fucking victimist and learn that a big company can be balancing a whole bunch of weapons, adding hats after accused of "being in conflict with game style", unusuals that are too rare, then they make them commom but they are now too common. Oh ffs, balancing something like tf2 is hard, and if you think you can do better go ahead, enter into valve's offices and say "hey, I don't give a fuck about everything we have, I just want more big updates or you are just a bunch of assholes who don't care about the game"
@@staringgasmask finally a high iq individual, they do care
@@rinkot284 no. Because it's impossible. It's a 3rd party program and they can't do anything to detect it, dealing with aimbots is nearly impossible, and I can tell you that's not an exploit. An exploit was the one which allowed lagbots to exist, and they fixed that
@@rinkot284 he literally explained why its impossible to do anything about it
these older half hopeful half cynical tf2 videos hurt to watch in 2020
since it's even worse than the cynical bits joked
literally just nothing for almost 3 years
rip and the update we did get for Christmas is shitty as well
@@crusadr_4966 actually this was a pretty good smissmass update, of course, for smissmass it was good, 4 new maps, 8 new taunts, new cosmetic and war paint cases, just because it had wutville doesn’t mean it was bad
@@crusadr_4966 at least we have an update
@@Gojilynx wutville is just awful christmas barf turned into a map
@@cobaltdev But on the other hand, pier is an absolutely amazing map imo and stands on par with some if the best payload maps
Actually Soldier is a specialist class: he specializes in making bad players think they are good at the game
Bobby Ferg also specialises in making shit players with 0 movement salty because they're simply too bad and stubborn to gain skill
gatsan So still soldier mains?
gatsan tbh I'm a soldier main and I gotta say that soldier doesnt require much skill since you have splash damage and unlimited mobility. There simply aint a counter for soldier. Maybe Sniper or Scout but still soldier has the upper hand. All the other classes suck against him.
are you talking about pubs where everyone is horrible at the game anyways?
gatsan No. not really. I get my expirience from pugs
I couldn't care less about comp, but GODDAMN the editing on this video made me feel certain sensations in my nether regions!
Damn fine job young master Funke!
Hard to swallow pills:
Casual TF2 was a huge reason TF2 went into mainstream for a few years. Nobody came to TF2 for differentiating generalists and specialists, they came for pootis spycrab sandvich snort. We all did.
@@WestyThaDawg
Clearly you haven't played tf2 recently
@@idot3331 Actually I played yeasterday, haven't seen a spycrab in months though...
Westy we came for the memes, stayed for the gameplay
@@velarowo That's the real truth.
@@WestyThaDawg le shpeecrabs are goin extinct ;(
or maybe, reform competitive tf2 so that 5cp isnt the only god damn gamemode you play, and allow payload and even attack/defend so that specialists can become more generalists. that way heavy isnt too slow, and that way spy can exceed more when people are distracted by payload carts.
google "no restriction 6s"
also it didn't work lol
@@socks8931 except that the people playing on sigafoo's no restriction payload enjoyed it very much when it was run.
No restrictions 6s doesnt work for many reasons. The main reason is that a/d and payload have one team only defend and one team only attack. This allows the defending team to turtle and stalemate the game, which isnt fun to play or watch. Plus no class limits or weapon bans means you can use stupid strategies like running 2 medics which nullifies the skill of uber tracking or using the wrangler which allows you to defend indefinetly. Anyone who plays comp knows why we have weapon band class limits and map restrictions
@@kpzip What? I thought NR6s' payload were fun to watch and DID work. Also while A/D maps are generally not great, Steel is easily the best comp map in the entire game (as shown by Prolander). You say the defense stalemates the game but the very point of these gamemodes if for the defence to hold for as long as possible, also the respawn timers are designed to advantage the attackers. Actual stalemates in TF2 are literally non existant outside of 5CP, this is why defensive strategies ruin 5CP gameplay so much and whitelists and class limits have to be put in place. NR6 isn't the problem, 5CP is.
The problem is that stalemates are the point of the game. It encourages a very static playstyle that drags out games. The spawn advantage encourages the attacking team to constantly sack because trading players is always worth it for the offensive team. In 5cp, both teams have an incentive to push forward and you dont get a long stalemate for each point like in asymetrical maps.
Also, dont you think that if there was an objectively bettet format than 6s, people would play that instead? I mean 90% of competitive players and leagues agree on 6s. Maybe they just all hate diversity and different classes and maps, or maybe 6s is just more fun and thats why they play it
Fake, Funke doesn't upload.
Ya wot m8
+Fake God damnit, this was perfect and you fucked it up...
Fake Dammit Fake
Don't you mean Jerma and star?
STRIKERFORCE2 true
This video is a masterpiece. It's an informative video with citations, animation and jokes, all while keeping the unique FUNKe visual style. Interesting, funny, and educational. You have truly out-done yourself this time, FUNKe.
Don't forget that it somewhat gives the entirely-casual community a heads up what competitive 6s is actually about. I've myself been truly frustrated by the uninformed players who think 6s is a JOKE(??)
And even a musical number!
I think my problem with 6s and competitive in general is actually the very specialist issue you refer to - TF2 loses its charm, and in my opinion, the fun, when you axe almost half of all the classes. I see no point in playing 6s if "the meta" means that we're limited to five classes.
6s doesn't mean only 4 classes are used. It means 4 are used a lot of the time, with counter-picking and switching classes when they're strongest, like how a specialist should be used.
@@DiabetoDan That's the Problem. TF2 has 9 classes; and people want to be able to run them full time; because players like playing certain classes.
If you main Scout, Soldier, Demo or Medic; you're fine, because you're playing meta classes who are always good in comp 6s; so you'll love comp.
If you main Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper or Spy; you are a situational play at best; and absolutely useless at worst. People who enjoy playing these classes or wanna off class just for something fun? They will not be taken seriously; because the meta is spoken.
2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers a Demo and a Medic. Sometimes a Sniper is run; but most of the time; that's it. Heavy and Engineer can be run on hard defense for the last point; but Spy and Pyro? Useless; they're a surprise plan at best. Due to this, if you don't wanna main a meta class; Comp basically has no value for you. That's not even discussing weapon bans and decision making.
@@DiabetoDan Yeah no fuck you, highlander no restrictions is the only good game mode.
@@Kohchu 1.pyro is not a "surprise pick", it's an effective choice for last point defenses that can single handedly save a match by denying Uber 2. You're talking about 5CP specifically, other gamemodes allow for fully running specialists ex. Mini engie, pyro, and sniper on KOTH due to a lower high mobility requirement and more close quarters engagements 3. Prolander exists and is very much an option for valve 4. If you played Highlander you'd know that there's a reason not every class is ran at once in comp, Highlander (especially high level) is a fucking nightmare. The spy is basically Intel, the sniper controls the ENTIRE tempo of the match, and class usefulness varies wildly between gamemodes meaning that some forced classes are relegated to throwing themselves at the objective (like scout on any engineer centric map/gamemode or engineer on any constantly shifting/offensive gamemode like 5cp)
@@lauri1398 the 6's community refuses to play any gamemode but 5cp, they recently removed gravel pit (the only A/D map in the pool) and the only payload maps they'll play are badwater and upward, and very infrequently. Other than that you only see 5cp and thus the same 5 classes over and over again
The problem with 6s is that they're 6s. The fact that each team only has six players means you can't sacrifice one player to build a teleporter on offense(indirectly game winning in pubs), or play heavy on defense. The low team size forces a generalist meta. And a lack of specialists makes the game more repetitive. And what makes pubs so fun is that they aren't repetitive. See a friendly engineer going for an aggressive hold? Play with him as a gunslinger engi or pyro. The rare times your team doesn't have a sniper or spy and you get to play it without negatively impacting your team can be quite fun. 6s don't have enough variance to support what makes tf2 such a great game: the replayability.
Well said
my man you're talking about friendlies while we're talking about comp. Also the the mobility of the 6' format makes it where you dont need teleporters since soldier, demo scout and med have the best mobility of the game. And I think you just don't have any idea of comp works to say its repetitive, because the word is rather "organised". If you think that the massive clusterfuck of that a pub is, is funny because 30% of the players have no clue of what they're doing and 20% others are friendlies or just afk you just spent to much time on theses pubs rather than trying all the gamemodes that are available on this game.
@@needmorebagels6217 I know that tf2 is known for its goofy, cosmetics, fun and casual part, this can't be acknowledged. But that's where the problem is. Valve has never put much effort into it, they’ve just been concentrating its efforts on the casual part for the past years and that's why 90% of the playerbase is casual. At the end it's just a question of mentality, if competitive would have been properly added from the beginning of the game, no one would be like "oh no i hate competitive, i just play tf2 for fun :DDD". Theses peoples are basically afraid to see their game change in the way they never launched it for, and that’s maybe because they had no idea that comp actually existed from the beginning.
Moving on to the major point: repeatedness.
Using Moba as an example: I don't think pros players plays all the heroes that are available, and that's because some of them aren't meta, such as weapons in tf2, some weapons just don't fit in the meta and kills it at some point. But you only realize that by actually playing comp, and i'm not talking about valves comp or tf2 centers lobbies that don't actually reflect what comp is. But since all the pubs players are so close minded it's only because:
1) they have no idea what they are talking about because they understand 60% of the game
2)valve didn't gave them a chance to experience what comp actually involves
3)since they never played comp they’re just viewing it from an exterior point of view
Also the physics that make tf2 a great all ends on mobility factor. The better you get, the better you can move around and take advantage of your enemy. The 6’ meta is probably not the best in terms of fun for new players because they don’t anything about theses physics. The actual composition has been chosen so the game evolve in the fastest way. Hl is being the best counter example by slowing the gameplay a lot and just shows that a slow tf2 is a boring tf2 in terms of playability.
@@phillyfling0918 valve is focusing on the casual part of the game because it IS the fucking game. Comp is a useless perversion of standard gameplay that completely shits on the ethos of the original game. When you try to make a game mode and it can't be successful without cutting out 60% of the game's original content, you've completely failed. Comp players complain about every slight little thing, with no regard to balancing in any productive or meaningful way, with their leading reasoning for bans being "it isn't fun to play against", as if that's supposed to mean anything at all. They're tryhards that want a game that isn't tf2 forcibly installed into tf2, with balances catering solely to them, and to hell with the rest of us, I suppose. I'd suggest that comp be limited to completely stock, but considering that comp players can't even handle entire fucking classes being in the game without whining, I think it would probably be better to remove it entirely.
@@toastcrunch9387 Some people like playing their 'casual' game in serious environments.
And since when did 6v6 cut out 60% of the game's content.
All the other 5 classes are picked and run, but they aren't run full-time because they're _specialists_
Unrelated, but I also kinda dislike the term 'tryhard in general. It indirectly shames wanting you and your team to play at their best.
There is also the issue of 6s breaking the basic balance of the game, and turning it into a strictly generalist class ruled game, which ruins the idea of pick classes changing the game flow, defense classes such as engie being useless due to the fast paced and highly explosive based meta, and worst of all, the fact that a HUGE number of people havegone out of their way to shun all other classes being used in a team comp. Friend of mine attempted to get into ESEA 6s, him and his team did well, very well, however people stopped playing them, why? they were "off meta" and thus it was "harmful to play them" because they wouldn't stop picking a pyro/sniper in the start of every round. They picked off the medic with a sniper or a bombing soldier with a pyro who knew how to airblast, even kept scouts at bay with an engie on second. Other teams they played complained and groaned, and even thought they would win scrims left and right, nobody would play them after a week, so the team was unable to work on their team comp or tactics, and they just bailed out.
The whole point of a scrim is to practice. You're not going to learn anything by playing against a Pyro and Sniper, because it doesn't teach you how to fight against more 'meta' teams (which make up like 99% of teams).
SolarLight2 that argument just further highlights the fact that 6's is rigid and uninteresting to many people who enjoy the other half of the class options and how it's basically a different game from anything else in TF2.
It's fine if 6's stays it's own thing, separate, but if balance changes come from working with 6's players it will most likely make pubs, 9's, 12's, etc. less balanced or make classes too similar and not unique.
One thing you have to realize is that the offclasses are just as balanced in 6s as they are in Casual/pubs.
Pyro is low tier in both Casual and 6s.
Pocketed Heavies are abused in Casual, because the GRU is OP. Just like 6s if they unbanned the weapon.
Engineer is mostly useful on defense, regardless of whether it's 12v12 or 6v6.
Sniper can either be useless or really really good, in both Casual and 6v6.
Spy can rampage in Casual, but that's mainly because of the lowered skill level of the players he's stabbing. Playercount can be taken into account but the difference in skill level is the main reason.
Rebalancing these classes to be better, such as reworking the Gunslinger or the Dead Ringer, isn't going to kill Casual. Funke noted that you're not going to be fighting more than six people on screen at once, even in a 12v12 server, which I think is a very good point.
These balance changes would improve both 6v6 AND 12v12, and would also provide incentive for teams to practice playing against Gunslinger Engineers or something, since more teams may use them.
Edit: Also, this 'teams not scrimming my team cause we're running offclasses fulltime' thing is only an issue for those who wish to run these classes in a full-on team instead of adapting, which is a small percentage of TF2 players. If you want to play Engineer in 6v6, you can do this without making a team in ETF2L. Assume Valve fixes their bloody matchmaking anyway.
HL is even more rigid
Whats funny is the amount of crying comp does nowadays.
I remember when it was only shitties and kids crying about "rage heavies"
Then again people look at heavy with his "speed" weakness forgetting that gru doesn't change his use. It does not make him stronger, and he is weak as hell to any pick class and smart play. Too bad 90% of snipers and spies are shit.
Pyro is a support that can block demo and soldier. Rarely is a pyro player good enough to do that, and scout/sniper really shit on him.
What is soldiers weakness? He has hitscan, explosive projectiles, the highest mobility, 2nd highest hp, unlocks that allow him to pick, supportive team buffs, good splash and direct damage options, Items to enhance tanking and mobility etc.
I have depression
Cute Pyro me too, lets be friends
Cute Pyro same
good
no one ew weeaboo
I'm British
8:21 Meet the Eyelander by The Winglet if anyone wanted to know who made that small scene.
"Giving the pyro more mobility and burst damage would just intrude on what the scout is good at"
Valve "hold my bear"
For those curious,
The reason I don't discuss highlander in this video is because it's been completely confirmed their focus is on 6s. It would be pointless to try and mix HL into the balancing equation under these circumstances. But because i've had a lot of comments about it, I'll elaborate a bit on my opinion here.
Highlander is an unideal competitive format for the game. 18 players is a huge number (9v9), and filling a server with 1 class per person is extremely difficult when people are only willing to play certain things. Try to mix this with a matchmaking mode. It would be dead. This playercount and class separation would make LAN setup vastly more difficult. another 6 chairs and computers. another 6 people who have to pay for a flight and make it there. This isn't including subs for the roster. Then consider the fact that specialists aren't balanced to be run fulltime. A mode where every specialist is run fulltime is counterproductive to the balance of the game. HL is also very boring to watch, especially if you aren't familiar with the format enough to understand what's happening.
I'm playing in Platinum as a Heavy right now. It's fun to play. But do I think it should be comp's focus? Not at all. It's a balancing nightmare, it goes against the design of the game, and it's intangible. There will always be HL but 6s is what the game needs to thrive, because it's far more inviting of a format when given proper support than 6s is.
FUNKe your wrote too much
Top notch content FUNKe
lolhl mains LUL
Balancing anything outside of 6s is a balancing nightmare. Valve didn't address the giant elephant in the room for more than 6 years and now their attempts to merge the communities starting with the extreme Demoman nerf and then Meet your Match are just alienating everyone, casual players and comp players alike. They simply have to leave it be and make the best of it and move on to tf3 with lessons learned.
The fact specialists aren't balanced to be run full time is probably something Valve didn't intend in addition, they probably didn't view their poster boy Heavy being viewed as a 'specialist'. You yourself say they don't like the 6s format, but why do you think that is? It's the same reason a large amount of the casual community doesn't like it, it cuts out a significant chunk of the game.
Even the terms generalist and specialist, it may have been that way from the base idea but I think the extremes at which generalists are viable and specialists are not what they intended, in addition to who even IS considered specialist. Their attempts to deal with this problem (notably with the Demoman sticky launcher nerf) were met with understandable mass outrage.
Their dislike of the 6s meta which has largely remained unchanged for an extremely long time is why they made unlocks like the GRU and the gunslinger and yet the 6s community dislike of the playstyle Heavy and Engineer bring on average is also exactly why the 6s community basically banned those items immediately and for good reason and it was not about 'balance', 'viability' and 'diversity' but about what the 6s community perceived as fun and that's totally okay.
why do you think that game wasn't balanced around highlander style gameplay ? If game would not be balanced around all classes playing at the same time what valve would make in 2007 was smth like Overwatch which is not balanced for all heroes to be played at the same time. What I believe is that valve keeps bashing tf2 core mechanics because of how much attention 6s get and they want to monopolize on all this attention, what people like you don't seem to understand is that 6s is a MOD not a core game for which tf2 was balanced, I don't think valve would ever be able to balance all 9 classes around 6s format, but what they will do in their futile attempt is break tf2s already crumbling balance even further to appeal to people like you. Overwatch was designed to be fast paced 6v6 class based fps, tf2 was not designed such way.
6:18 team killing scout im reporting you
Me too, jose.gonzales.2010 is a menace and has to be stopped
10:03 God you saying love hsa been stuck in my head for the past week, and I've been hunting through your videos trying to find where it was.
Sniper is good when your aim is like aimbot level to instant punish scouts
God I hate u guys but I can massively respect when u guys btfo overzealous bombing classes. (Do feel for you due to this aimbot craze though)
@@SciRuler i had a stroke reading that
I have to say, 6s with class limits. They are the best option in my opinion.
This way, you can run the generalists and the specialists. In the current meta, running a full pyro is an automatic disadvantage, because you're not running another scout.
It has to change. 1 class per team, it's enough.
Prolander? Sign me up
actually thats highlander as far as i can tell
@@joeolszewski9540 Prolander 6v6 + A/D and Payload. With normal cp or koth you'd end up running 4 generalists, a pyro and a sniper as meta 90% of the time, which is where asymmetric stopwatch gamemodes solve that.
it works in getting teams to not run the meta but am i the only one that kind of hates this solution? like the only way to get someone to play pyro full time is to literally force them to?
@@ultra2424 Good to see the 3 year old comment still stirs up conversation.
To respond: unfortunatly, the game was rigged from the start.
Pyro is a specialist, which are most of the time less useful than generalists.
Prolander here would crush any hopes for stacking demos and such, as it is extremely unfun to play, and of course crushes diversity. Truth is, the classes were made far before anyone wanted to turn it into a viable competetive game, and it suffers as the result.
The editing in this damn sexy, to say the least.
Hey, whatever weird fucked Up fetish you have, well, that's your choice mate and I'm not one to change it
Kill me
"Later..."
"Please make an aoe healer with their own stalemate breaker." Meanwhile the amputator.
8:26 I was not expecting to hear Wu-Tang Clan in a TF2 video, definitely caught me off-guard
Same, didn’t expect Tyler either.
I was literally thinking, hey, whens that new FUNKE video that he talked about on twitter coming out? *checks feed* new funke video
the thing with competitive for me is that there's a big line between casual and 6's
like i want to try competitive but to go right from casual into competitive seems like a big jump and i'll probably get yelled at a lot and i feel like i'd ruin games for people by being a noob
+muddy bear
That's valve's fault. The matchmaking system is fucked. It puts rank zeroes in with max ranked people.
The only people who will ruin others' experience are the adult squeakers, as I like to call it. They are adults, but still have the mindset of a 9 year old CoD kid. They will yell at you if you don't stick to the META, even if you just joined and had another weapon set from a previous match.
They usually can't accept people in casual can be skilled, and think the competitive community is the only skilled community.
that is true for me as well
The soldier’s main weakness- (cue the J Jonah Jamison laugh track)
The soldier doesn’t have a weakness. His slow speed is countered with his primary his health pool is 2nd highest in the game, and has so much fire power that is useful in both long and close range that it makes the pyro look weak.
Pyro, is simple
Soldier, is easy
What about scout and pyro
A lot of people in the comments seem to forget what alt fire does with pyro's primary weapon...
(here's a hint; it's really, really effective against soldiers at any range)
Generalists are not OP. Specialists are just bad.
How about you play the game
more before making ignorant comments?
Soldier has only 4 rockets per clip and is completely
defenseless once he has none left. He can't escape or do damage without his rockets (unless you're running the shotgun, in which case you're just crippling yourself, even pockets use gunboats nowadays).
Also while soldier does have great mobility, it comes at the cost of health. This means he can't jump away to safety when he is about to die.
Soldier also doesn't do a lot of damage on mid range and beyond, unless he decides to do a bomb (which is often suicidal).
@מגיב בתגובות Okay, but pyro also has a shotgun, or the scorch shot which despite its reputation, is really good against people who know how to kite you.
Also your name totally fucks up my comment on mobile.
5:43 - 7:49 I disagree completely with this section of the video. These problems only happen in 5cp maps, and...well...5cp is a flawed game mode. the majority of comp tf2's problems come from the fact that 5cp is the worst kind of game mode for specialists. if the default competitive game mode was payload, literally none of these problems would exist. spy would be an invaluable asset for taking down engineers, pyro would become an incredible defense class against spy, and heavy would be played more as a defense class. the only class that truly needs a bit of a nerf is sniper because of his quickscoping potential, but still.
Wait you disagree with the song?
*yes he can*
That's true, anything spy can do sniper does better:
-Sniper get banned kicker than Spy
-Sniper get more bullied by scunt
-Sniper is more coward than spy
-And sniper die more realisticly than the spy, or even realy die...
@@cadsquade your grammer makes this even better
@@kastiyansdoromey6784
-grammer
-gramer
-gamer
-gamerz, am I right ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
honestly, I dont believe sniper deserves any nerfs. Because for him to be the most powerful class the play needs high skill and aiming. Sniper is just a perfect scenario of being rewarded for accuracy.
Love the vids funke, youre really good at editing 👍🏼😀
GenderPranks you're nice
SomeRandomGuy :P wait i saw you at the end of this video
yeah i know you
Abd Palistine lol what
SomeRandomGuy :P look at the happy face at the end of the video
SomeRandomGuy :P 11:55 maybe he's your cousin
"Sixes players don't hate the idea of other classes being allowed to play at all times." Then clearly you don't play with any of the people I've ever played sixes with in the past...
Cool70sfreak this
Cool70sfreak ...if the classes are in a state where you wouldn't be better off with a generalist class.
If it was viable to run, say, a Heavy full time, I don't think people would have a problem with it, which is what Funke was trying to say. Right now, if you're running an off-class full time, you are actively putting your team at a disadvantage, which is why people aren't OK with it.
No see a team in scrims was playing engie and pyro. They where just working on their comp but everyone shunned them because they kept winning. This is where I'll say I want to play what I play the best not that the "meta" dictates.
+Inteli722 - Here is the issue there in.
If you're not allowed to run off classes to experiment and see if you can use them in new, creative ways to potentially show what they can do on a competitive level; how do you adjust their situation to the point where they are acceptable and not just laughed at the second someone picks them? Imagine if all comp games did that; the meta would never change and become stale as 3 week old bread.
Which is currently how the modern TF2 meta is. 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, Demo, Medic; potentially swapping out a Scout or Soldier for Sniper. That is all you see in Comp. It makes the game fast paced; sure, but it completely negates what makes TF2 special. The generalist classes are designed to compliment, and HELP the Specialist classes; so they can operate together and form a powerful threat. And in casual games; you can see this happen all the time. Ever wonder why final pushes are so annoying? Because the Engineer's team is working alongside him to hold the final spot and make your push inward tougher.
Mom: "Eat your food."
Kid me: "What's in it?"
Mom: 10:15
lmao
“They didn’t rebalance. It was just HATS.”
>TF2 for the past three years
2014: get rekt
After playing undertale: get dunked on
After watching FUNKe: get FUNKed on
Oh, dear...
Don't worry, puberty will be over soon.
i'm boutta' twist my upper spinal cord in an unpleasant direction after reading your comment
The fact that you think Undertale invented Get Dunked On saddens me.
They didn't say or imply Undertale made up 'Get Dunked On', the comment implied that everyone started saying it only AFTER Undertale, which is, basically (but not technically), true.
TF2 comp memes are one of the best kind of memes
Wayne Kerr THE best kind of memes
nah not good i like cash me outside how bau dat XD WATER MELONEEE!!! XDD
FUNKe: "Haha! Spy is so useless!"
Also FUNKe: "If Heavy can get to the point, that's such a hard roadblock! How are you going to take care of that?"
+CocoaNutCakery spies are easy as fuck to shut down as heavy. Back up against a wall and turn every 3 seconds.
FUNKe
You’ve fallen into my trap, if you do that all the time, you’re bound to be locked down and destroyed by a coordinated team, eventually.
Could just use a sniper, boom headshot.
@@justanalias5642 Anything Spy can do Sniper does better
@@realdaggerman105 I mean doesn’t really matter if he gets to mid anyways heavy is subject to massive focus fire and can’t do shit about it
10:08
its been like 4 years and #2 is painfully accurate
This is, essentially, the best video ever made about competitive TF2 and Valve needs to watch this.
No he forgot the dark side of 6's....Play off meta and be shunned.
This aged like piss.
This aged like piss.
Again.
and then 'valve my ass tf2- i mean just valve' said, "dota dota cs:go."
I feel like the classes that would make good generalists when balanced:
Heavy - The tank that glues the team together and pushes towards victory.
Engineer - A versatile support class with a focus on team sustainability and area denial while being a competent combat class(i.e. Battle Engineer).
Pyro - If Scout is the ambush pick class, Pyro is the ambush power class.
Spy and Sniper are a bit harder to balance because they're so different.
Scout is kinda a power class though, he is the strongest dm class in the game, he can fight in the wide open (which demos and soldiers have a dis advantage since less splash damage), scout can fight in tight spaces, he can flank, be part of the combo, if the scout is as good as clockwork, scout can wipe out the entire team and cap the last point on badlands in less than 4 minutes.
Classic, adding on, scout is also key to building über without wasting ammo.
If Scout can be considered a generalist, then any class can.
Just consider the fact that the class with bad area damage, that's bad at breaking heavy defenses, that can't deal with sentry guns, that can only function in smaller fights without Engies or Heavies in them or flanking individual classes. Is considered a generalist. And nobody questions it.
The words have no actual meaning in the TF2 community except "good full time in 6s".
For Spy, I think he should be all about sabotage.
Poisoned Sandwiches, Exploding ammo packs, you know, stuff to disorganize the enemy.
@@moonmelons that certainly is a take LOL. scout is incredibly versatile as another commenter has pointed out. he can take head on fights, he can play a defensive role building uber and denying bombs, he can flank, he can really just do it all.
Additionally, any class can be a "pick class," you can get crucial medic picks as soldier or demo, you can detonator jump past the enemy team to take down a problematic sniper, you can even land a clutch crossbow on a scout who is trying to kill you as medic, etc. etc.
Scout is a specialist, not a generalist. Problem is, he specializes too heavily in the things 6s demand to the exclusion of the others, as he's the speed and objective guy. When you're forced to attack and defend on these titanic, sprawling maps designed for 12s with teams half that size, covering lots of ground becomes *the* deciding factor. Scouts also are the only reliable Demoman counter, and speed and flanking make him a great class for picks. Other classes are too heavily specialized and/or wrongly specialized for the unvaried, simple, boring fights on a 6s match.
The only real generalists in the game are Soldiers, Medics, and Demomen. Everyone else depends on the specific fighting you're doing.
Samniss Arandeen
Scout beats like, every class except maybe soldier in a fair 1 v 1...
He is not a specialist, he has all the advantages of the other generalists, high damage, great mobility, and he doesn’t even have to use ammo for it. Oftentimes you see scouts not even capturing points, because they’re too busy wiping the floor with the demo-med combo.
Scout can kill every class 1v1 (except maybe soldier?) and he has free mobility. Rocket/sticky jumping takes health and ammo, scout presses w. He can capture control points, pick off enemies, or just go full aggro and only die by that one mini sentry in the corner. Yeah, what a specialist...
@@itsasecrettoevery1 he's a hyperagressive attacking class that is much worse on defense than offense. Which is why he got called a specialist here. He is an attacker to the bones, he can't just easily start being very defensive like soldier or demo.
@@realdaggerman105 (laughs in engineer)
@@realdaggerman105 i mean only if he catches them offguard, pyro is a surprisingly underrated scout counter, a heavy if he isnt caught off guard shreds scout if he has good tracking, demoknight is just good vs scout, engie with any wrench including cool robot arm completely shuts off scout, hes a specialist, but his weaknesses are non existant on 6v6
My only issue is that I hate sixes. It's so divorced from basically everything the game was designed for... A tiny team on huge maps, a stale meta with huge amounts of weapon bans... I don't care if it's what they found to work-- It's what the players found to work *for one specific type of game style*, it doesn't make it good. There are fundamental flaws in trying to balance a game for teams of 6 when the game, the maps, the weapons, are *all* designed for having twice that size! AoE attacks mean different things when a kill is a bigger percentage of the enemy team. Insta-kill headshots and backstabs are likewise a bigger deal (there's a reason Overwatch doesn't have a character with a backstab-like mechanic that oneshots any character). Map design, shape, and size means a lot changing from a team of 12 to a team of 6. It just... The game wouldn't need "balance changes" to work for 6's. It would need an entire overhaul, and to ask for that is just unreasonable.
Nobody made arguments against this? What? Where are the whiners? And the squeaker-like 20 year olds?
Exactly, it seems best for them to start back at square one. Maybe Team Fortress 3, but that wont ever happen. It would be cool to see what kind of direction they would take it though.
Tf2's competitive scene reminds me of smash's competitive scene, in how different it is from the vanilla game, and how the developer has distanced themself from it as a result.
Oh look, someone with some sense. You can't suddenly decide you want to milk an esport out of a game that's established itself for a decade as a casual experience. If you have to ban unlocks and restrict classes to make a competitive mode work, maybe you should realize that TF2 isn't meant for competitive. It's incredibly simple. This game was designed to be a silly shooter, seriously why is this so hard for people to grasp.
That profile picture, though.
it all went downhill when ster_ left
Who gives a shit about him?
meh, there's still plenty of tf2 youtubers around. lots of different flavors.
Niichils Everyone apparently, i mean, i do
It really is a sad state of affairs when even the people who play the damn game aren't enjoyable anymore
I don't.And i don't see whay he has anything to do with this video.Imo people that think this is what damages the game.(for example: Omergerd Ster doesn't play tf2,tf2 is dead). I mean really,don't you have your own opinion? This baffles me.
Still in love with the absolute amount of effort put into this vid, definitely one of the most informative pieces on TF2 out there.
10:00
During this next section, I want you to be completely honest and raise your hand every time say something you've felt personally
1. Tried competitive matchmaking and had an overall unenjoyable or underwhelming experience
*No reaction*
2. Concern that TF2 might lose its charm after long wait times between concerningly unpolished major updates
*No reaction*
3. Love
RAISES HAND
I'm a very casual TF2 player (never played comp, don't play casual often, mostly play with bots), but the 6s you present here look so... Limited. Like, it's 4 out of 9 classes and the absolute majority of the guns are straight from Quake 3.
well, that's just how the game works best. Spy is pretty much useless, sniper doesn't have enough presence to push/hold objectives, pyro is very limited at combat and it's useful only when playing passively, heavy is way too slow and vulnerable to a coordinated attack and the engineer just freezes the game and prevents his team from advancing or doing anything other than protecting his sentry. Truth is, we have 4 classes that are useful at the majority of the situations and 5 classes that CAN SOMETIMES be useful in very specific situations. That's why 6s is by far the best comp format...
that's a lie, for that you better play quake, and highlander is eating the cake to 6v6 and highlander has by far much greater acceptance with the casual public, tf2 was made to be played with all classes: that's why the casules don't care about the competitive one and 6v6 in particular. 2 years later xD
@@G_Koch that's it? tf2 is at it's best when the chaos is watered down and half the classes are useless?
@@G_Koch Why is 6s the best exactly? All those classes can be run full-time in casual and nothing really happens all that much. I don't get why your reasoning that 6s is the best format here. Like, those classes are far form underpowered. They are only underpowered in the 5_CP game mode and with the 6-player limit per team.
@@dombelly3343 Yeah honestly there is a very good reason why a lot of casual players ignore or even hate the competitive scene: from their perspective all the fun and wackiness of casual and watering it down to be 100% "fair". It's like comparing a vibrant and diverse city or town to a city in 1984. Part of tf2 is the wackiness and appeal to casual players. Something is wrong with comp if the best way to play is to ignore half the classes most of the time and stick with a very specific set of classes.
Pretty damn snazzy funkey baby
6's is waaay more fun.
Watching ESEA Rewind was fucking amazing.
Seriously Valve advertise it more.
Chrono ESA* sorry cause the esea league is different
Ther is also an ESEA league for tf2 also
highlander.
"Balancing around sixes doesn't impact casual"
The ulapool caber, dead ringer, ambassador, baby-faces blaster, and many more would like to have a word
Baby face blaster wasn’t even nerfed because of comp
Dead ringer wasn't nerfed because Comp
Everyone: Competitive plz.
Valve: _NeRf ThE sPy???_
This new profile picture disturbs me on a spiritual level.
Pyro is nothing and Funke wants that AOE class...
hmmm
What if we turn Pyro into that class?
PD:This video has so much work,I love it
How will you turn him into an aoe tho ? Plus he would kinda lose his "support" role
RadioWw replace the shotgun with optional molotov grenades? and yes, you're absolutely right on losing the support role, but he could support the team by blocking choke points with the molotov.
it's fucking hoxton, twats
Building on your idea, if the Pyro were to receive an AOE function, I believe that his primaries should be tweaked to be able to light a small patch of ground on fire at a time, which will eventually die out in a few seconds. Imagine it as CS:GO's Molotov and Incendiary Grenade, only less damaging, and without spreading on its own.
it's fucking hoxton, twats
That reminds me of how TFC and QuakeWorld TF's pyro worked. He had an incendiary cannon that shot weak rockets that cause a firey explosion lighting people on fire from a distance. Kinda like the scorch or detonator. He also had a proper molotov grenade as his special grenade that held an area on lockdown for a decent amount of time.
They should have :
pubs: place where hoovy's exist and where you can have the 4 sniper, 2 spy "experience"
Casual 6's: unranked 6's.
Ranked 6's: comp.
haha imagine wanting to play 6's lol - Highlander should be the default comp gamemode
@@ChrisJones-rd4wb while I love highlander, it would be too hard to have it as the main comp mode. Needing 9 players on either team, and those 9 players have to each pick diffetent classes.
Classic (including long queue times and flying 18 people for tournaments BECAUSE THATS WHAT COMP IS FOR THIS GAME AINT GONNA STAY ALIVE FROM DEAD MEMES)
@@justanalias5642Simply make the matchmaker by class you want to play. A monkey could program that, but maybe valve really can't
6:00 is when the music starts
Follow-up question, why does it seem like comp is SO adverse to unlocks? Because when you make points like how heavy can't rollout without the gru, why is gru not allowed? Is it so heavy ant roll out and is therefore completely unviable? Because a heavy with gru and sandwich is a solid team member
If you allow the GRU in competitive play, several problems arise. Mainly, the GRU doesn't have any downside to compensate for the speedboost, so you end up with an overpowered class.
yoshifan2334 Because, as Funke also points out in the video, Heavy was designed to be a powerhouse on defense but slow to move out on offense. Heavy isn't unviable, he's viable in the role he was originally intended to fulfill.
By the way, Even with GRU Heavy probably isn't as viable as you think. Due to his speed, it's difficult to avoid stickies and pipes, and unless you have literally the best tracking aim ever you're going to die to 3 100-damage meatshots from scout. A lot. You're also slow to exit mid fights that aren't going well, and if you get caught rolling out by a flanking scout or Roaming soldier, you're dead. Even with the GRU, Heavy isn't quite mobile enough to be a generalist.
because you didnt watch the video and it kinda fucks with the whole generalist /specialist shit
@gatsan Why do you always sound toxic in every comment I see from you?
@@AqworldsMew11 only replying to this cuz im bored. you're right, i was way more toxic than i am now makin these comments. im not gonna rewatch the video but i imagine gru is banned cuz heavy being able to get into position fast kinda removes one of his weaknesses without pulling back a strength or something
"The way the game was meant to be played" is rather Highlander than 6s. Highlander is also the perfect bridge between the casual and competitive scene. So why not just introduce that into competitve and see how things go?
shatterhand01 Highlander bans the ability to come up with your own team compositions. This instantly means that HL is nothing like pub TF2, an environment where you can have 2 Soldiers or 2 Scouts.
Suddenly 6s seems more appropriate.
dank tf2 memes
But doesn't competitive in general ban the ability to come up with a new team composition?
not really cause switching characters based on situations is one of the most important things to do in 6s. Also, highlander is too chaotic and crazy for it to be watched as an esport and every kill doesnt matter nearly as much as 6s
I'm curious - is there any official Valve source that says the classes were designed to be played in the Highlander way? I understand how "there should be 1 of every class" might be the intuitive way to think, and their animated videos often use 1 of every class for cinematic character reasons, but aside from that I've always gotten the impression the game was designed around adapting to other teams' compositions - something that there's never a need to do in Highlander because there's only ever 1 composition.
I'm no huge fan of 6's myself, but if we're going to compare either comp mode to "classic" 12v12 casual TF2 then my money will be on the one that actually lets you change your team comp according to the situation.
James Gardner
Valve didn't design TF2 to be a comp game.
AoE healer with a stalemate breaker? Sounds like a Medic with the Amputator or a Soldier with the Concheror.
Although, I’ve had an idea for _years_ that would give the Engineer a secondary that allows him to use metal to launch ammo packs and changes the dispenser to a mini version that he can wear as a backpack.
I think this problem comes from the gamemode, not the classes. 5cp requires the generalist classes because the battlefield changes too fast for low mobility classes like heavy or pyro to keep up, and too fast for engies to set up with anything other than the gunslinger.
Perhaps if the main competitive gamemode was payload, there would be more class variety.
If payload, KOTH, Atack/defend, would make specialists more useful. 5CP is honestly boring, repetitive, slow, and relies on generalist classes.
5cp is ok but forces fast heavy, jag engineer and you need to play stock pyro.
After MyM I have no interest in playing competitively and Casual mode has made the game much less enjoyable for me. So what about us that don't want to do 6's? I prefer 12v12 valve pubs and the stalemates they bring because fighting an equally matched team, pushing back and forth, and finally breaking that stalemate is far more satisfying than fighting a few classes in a gamemode I don't play that is over in a couple minutes.
What i dislike about competitive is how fast it goes. Where is careful planning and execution? No, we go for fast reflexes and aiming on the run. *plays benny hill music*
ceu160193 6s has planning and execution, though. Most of the time it occurs with popping ubers to break a position. However, if fast reflexes and aiming on the run don't work for you, you might want to try a different game. Counter-Strike, maybe.
FreeToPlay Scout but is not fun to watch, which is the deal breaker (besides people actually playing) for any game that wants to become an e-sport
FreeToPlay Scout yea valve mm is horrible surprise but real 6v6 (faceit, mixchamp, tf2c, leagues etc.) is way better
gatsan, I don't disagree but its really damn hard to stick to the schedules for scrims. It already feels like a job I have to make time for, but I also have school, homework, work, and Krav Maga on the side. It would be just nice to, in my down time, join a game with experienced and communicative players and just scrim when I feel like it. And then discovering that I spent all that time and planning only to get my ass kicked and called a scrub REALLY makes the TF2 comp scene a bitch to get into.
Unrelated to topic: that was a *really* nice video. Top-notch editing, good sense of timing with the visual gags, nice use of the visual aids, even the sound and music seemed pretty solid. One imagines a video about the game to be sort of boring, involve long-winded speeches and scarechords, and usually either are just recorded over unrelated gameplay or just the actual person talking directly. This was well done, and actually enjoyable as a video in addition to getting the point across.
I really like these technical kind of videos with the instrumental music in the background.
"I know that 9 classes is a lot"
overwatch: *laughs* "those are rookie numbers"
hard to compare these two games
The difference is TF2's classes are actually fun to play.
As someone who has spent around 5000+ hours playing tf2 (console tf2 time included in that) I just feel like 6 v 6 comp TF2 is not the TF2 I know. It's like a different game entirely with new rules and more spotlight on each persons skill leaving almost no room for idiots. My problem with comp in any game is just getting into it is a slog through a swamp hoping and praying the team you get is good. I don't play comp with friends or have a team and thats probably my main problem. I always find it a hassle to coordinate times between 6 people I like to get on when I want and play when I want which is why casual pub style servers are always just the better option in my opinion. On a 12 man team theres more buffer for idiot team mates. You could have at least 5 other people that are good and 6 that are not so good but thats okay because theres so many people it usually does not create the situation where you are getting absolutely slammed and steam rolled every round which is what I feel like happens a lot in overwatch when I play it. Long opinion post over.
Scraggle So get a team and get good. Don't act like pugs are the only way to play competitively.
+inteli722
the question is why you would WANT to play tf2 competitively.
It's like trying to play Club Penguin competitively. They're casual games.
Dover Movement and DM more reminiscent of Quake than anything else in a team environment, with a high emphasis on mechanical skill. There are plenty of games that are more casual and less competitive than TF2 being played competitively right now. Hell, Blizzard owns two of them, a children's card game with more RNG than cards and a waifu-simulator ability-em-up that barely requires you to have functioning hands to play well.
Agreed. There aren't enough players in 6s to justify specialists, plus payload doesn't work so well with only 6 a side. I feel 12v12 payload or KOTH is far better than 6s.
I agree. I've only rarely played TF2 competitively, and as far as I'm concerned the comp and casual modes may as well be different games.
Both are fun, if you have the proper resources (including, as you said, adequate team communication), but I'm personally never going to crave 6v6 TF2 the same way I crave 5v5 DOTA.
10:19 "puberty"
more like its an old has been putting on shades and a backwards ball cap and saying "IM STILL COOL AND HIP WITH THE TIMES"
Every legit e sports has a casual version of their competitive gamemode.
*cries in 10v10 csgo casual*
try some community retake, if you haven't yet. It's the only reason, I play that game anymore.
I think it's important to note that some classes are more or less powerful depending on how many players there are totally. For example, engineer is much weaker the more players there are, and spy is stronger
I agree with almost everything, I do think the 6's community would fight tooth and nail to keep the meta they have created even if Valve were to re-shape a class. They have found what they believe to be the absolute best format and in all truth I don't think it would be a stretch of the imagination that if lets say demo was made a specialist instead of a generalist they would run an older version of the game to keep him where he is now. But I am biased on my view for the 6's community so I could be wrong,hope I am, but its also sad that this community has this view about it at all, where most other pro communitys don't.
It's because people shun people who don't play meta in 6's. Even if they are winning because of it.
Maybe Valve should just make Highlander the official comp mode.
no satan
In all honesty, the communities 6v6 rules are insanely out of touch with reality. They work for a small, hyper competitive elitist bunch, and make sense to absolutely no one else. I mean, you eliminateed more than half the classes from the game! Can't you understand how asinine that is?
So I can completely understand Valve doesn't want to design the 6v6 format around these bizzare rules that ban most of the content from their game.
it seems the game just isnt balanced for 6v6
@@onepants6081 indeed, I believe the 6v6 format was just a compromise because people had a hard time getting abigger team together. Now we're stuck with it, even tho we have modern formats like highlander.
@@BrokenSymetry Also it makes way less sense to try and balance around sixes when you take time to think about how different the game mode is compared to casual. Like you already have the numbers cut in half in terms of team size and player count so obviously some weapons become more powerful in sixes that would otherwise be perfectly fine in casual and on top of that spy is strait up useless in sixes (or so I've been told by comp players thus far).
Also how do they expect to get the rest of the community into it when the meta revolves around only four of the classes? What if you main one of the five non-meta classes? No, you do not need to follow the meta but from my understanding it is expected a lot of the time or people tend to stick to it pretty well on the most played maps which are often control points.
I don't dislike sixes, I think its a very interesting and original game mode that just simply isn't for everyone. I just don't think it makes much sense to balance the whole game around. Now 9v9 on the other hand would make a lot more sense to balance around due to it being a better middle ground in terms of structure rather than sixes.
@@brutalbob842 a few points to go through:
"obviously some weapons become more powerful in sixes that would otherwise be perfectly fine in casual and on top of that spy is strait up useless in sixes (or so I've been told by comp players thus far)"
well, not really, remember the players are much more competent than on casual, they are able to handle most weapons that could be "stronger" and the weapons that are outright broken or unfun to play against even on casual (like the vac or natasha) are already banned, there are some cases where some weapons that are banned even though in casual are niche at best like the B.A.S.E jumper, but that was more of how comp players can, and are able to abuse some weapons in order to give themselves an advantage, going back to the base jumper example, a lot of people frowned due the "unnecesary nerf" because not many people know about its potential or how to use the weapon effectively, but on the comp side, even that nerf didnt guarrant the unban of the weapon, because still allowed it to be a weapon that allowed the soldier and demo to be almost untouchable on the skies, and made bombing easier.
Also Spy ITS usefull and used because its played on its intended role: surprise attacks when the enemy doesnt expect him and single target elimination (mostly medics and demos) in situations where not even sniper can get a shot, of course it has its risks, but it is still used.
"when the meta revolves around only four of the classes? What if you main one of the five non-meta classes? No, you do not need to follow the meta but from my understanding it is expected a lot of the time or people tend to stick to it pretty well on the most played maps which are often control points."
The classes do still see use, but under their inteded role, as funke said it: engineer, pyro and heavy are more meant to park the bus, but they do still see usage on last holds, sniper and spy as well due their roles to break stalemates, a lot of people FAILS to understand that classes have roles and limitations and while on casual you can run whatever and still win, on competitive, trying to run a full time, lets say spy, its detrimental for your team (mostly due how the class works and how basic awareness screws him up), you have to pick the right class for the job unless you want to get boned by the enemy team which wouldnt hesitate on exploit any weakness your team has
"Now 9v9 on the other hand would make a lot more sense to balance around due to it being a better middle ground in terms of structure rather than sixes."
No, unless you want the game balanced around sniper duels, you can bitch whatever you want about 6s problems, since those are due the gamemode is chosen to play (5cp), and most of the 6s community recognizes those problems, but i see that not many casual players take in consideration the clusterfuck that is highlander, and since most of them hate sniper, it is a very sour surprise when they realize that in a high level, the games are mostly a glorified sniper duel (due the team protecting their respective sniper, the only thing that can take out a sniper is: the enemy sniper or a very coordinated push which itself its a gamble if the sniper takes out a key target like the medic), outside that, some classes are straight up not fun to play when forced to be run full time, like scout or engie on offense payload which are limited to be the cart bitch and the teleporter/dispenser bitch in their respective cases, or pyro who is mostly an airblast machine to deny the enemy uber and spy check, or spy who is forced to be run against a team that will be always expecting him and ready to deal with him with a pyro/heavy.
i do remember a phrase that represents this perfectly: "6s has problems due the gamemode is chosen to play, but highlander has problems related to the format itself" which doesnt make it less fun, but it makes it a nightmare to balance around
“Eliminated?” No, they just don’t work in most situations. Some classes are better than others.
"soldier is the best ranged anti-sentrygun class"
the engineer with a pybro: n0
I mean it not that fair since technically the soldier is going up against 2 player at once so why not bring a demoman or a medic into the mix eh?
They need to bring back community servers to replace the casual matchmaking
I dont like joining a stacked game after 5-10 minutes of waiting just to lose in 3 minutes just so I can wait for 5-10 minutes longer for another game
Bananas_on_Bread or joining a game the last minute or when it's already ended
bro it only takes like 7 seconds to get in a match in EU
Blobux Blobux yeah I have all gamemodes and maps selected
@Bananas_on_Bread Nor would I, pretending to be a new player, appreciate being matched into a 27 vs 1 Freak Fortress server and not knowing wat the hell to do.
That bit about the pyro at the end had me in tears.
As always people hate on pyro...
@@AqworldsMew11
Good.
@@TheTheThe_ bet you play heavy.
@FUNKe i love this better i could see you put work into this and honestly i didnt find any of your jokes unfunny and the editing was perfect! keep up the good work!
FUNKe you a legend for using the rusty beat as background music
I remember the matchmaking beta, one time I kept picking sniper and no matter how well I did, my team would always scream at me to switch, even if I did my job well.
Hopefully they don't nerf Heavy again on the next update, that'd be terrible.
+Lewis Cant you just use casual MM and get a match with players
>After this video:
TF2 Update - We bought Lucio from Overwatch as the 10th class for tf2
Wait what exactly is the wrong wth heavy with those gloves? the push back is slower so? A bit slower games?
2:17 HEY it's the new update!
Jheez this was a great video. From the fully researched points that go in depth to real issues and possible to solutions, to the comedic songs (which are really good), I found myself fixated. Like this was such a good video that had my full attention the entire time. Honestly, I hope valve watches this video. I think it would be really beneficial for them to take some advice from the community.
6:02
Dont mind me, just a little personal timestamp
micspam timestamp??
"sniper does anything better than spy"
Except: clearing sentry nests, shutting down teleporters, spying on the other team, back capping, sniper killing, reducing mini-sentry uptime, stealing uber and of course; putting porn sprays at enemy spawn
Sniper can counter the sniper killing provided they watch their backs, especially when they know a spy is on the other team, the demo, soldier and medic can take down the sentries, FUNKe outright said sniper can steal uber better, backcapping can be stopped by one of the 2 scouts and spying on the other team is too vague.
@@areeeeon how is spying too vague? Handy to know what to expect, and yeah the others can take iut sentries but sappers are an engies worst nightmare, as for sniper, fair about ubee stealing I guess but sniper isn't at good at countering other snipers as spy
@@ToxicBastard Sappers aren't really an engineer's worst nightmare, if they have competent teammates the spy can be easily killed and the sapper can be removed, I guess spying is a bonus but do you really want to sacrifice one player just to watch the enemy team. Again, if the sniper has a competent team a spy won't be able to backstab him
@@frydog4217 depends, all it takes is one moment of distraction in combat and boom, no more teleporter, no more medic ect.
Plus spies can be useful in stopping a push on attack/defend.
Sniper just isn't that versatile or capable of mass death.
...you do know that song was about how Sniper is better than spy in "6s", right?
The game wasn't designed around sixes. The game wasn't designed around sixes. The game wasn't designed around sixes!
I don't get what the big deal is around 6s. It fucking sucks. the only true way to play tf2 competetively is Highlander.
Assuming you're being serious- While I play and enjoy highlander, it is a very messy format. It can become very boring and tedious to spectate, 9v9 is an extremely unviably high playercount to try and herd for LAN events, and above all else (as i say many times in this video) some classes are not meant to be run at all times. It was within valve's own design that classes switch based on the situation. A format which has them active at all times goes against that design, regardless of whitelist balance.
6s is objectively more viable as an esport, and deserves dev focus above highlander.
the best way to play tf2 is in highlander UGC night combat top 10
Bryan Sodenkamp imagine a 9v9 where there is a 1 class per person limit (so you have all 9 classes on your team) that would be interest it but you wouldn't be able to change classes so it wouldn't work.
Doctor Meem thats exactly how Highlander (9v9) works :D
It's your opinion man, and you are in the minority.
"Dota , Dota,cs:co"
Lazy purple.
Ah yes. Cs:Co
Counter strike Company offense
Maybe coffee offensive
Classic offensive
Cocaine orbiter
I love how much effort Funke puts into these vid. Hope you keep it up
im a bit late on this but that musical part was absolutely fantastic. most entertaining thing i have seen in a while. you sing well too.
But other games have this shit too, people usually use the best and the strongest characters and weapons of the meta, or characters and weapons that counter the enemy team.
Hmmm... why do people use the best and strongest class.. *thinking* OH YEAH! It's because they're the best and strongest! Huh, didn't realize that!
AstorStar took a long hard think to figure out that competitive isn't casual
Eddie
Still, some other classes can fit better for specific situations.
Other games don't cut the team size in half.
10:38 song? (yes I read the description, I didn't found it)
Rollerpuntazo. same he also didn't list the one that starts at 1:12
eevee - soap
@@mal1272 thank you (i forgot to said)
How do you manage to get these songs on your videos (tyler)
OK Funke where did you get that visual of a clock at 5:13 ? I have one that looks EXACTLY like it, and I'm trying to find the manufactorer, or ANYTHING about it, but I've gotten nothing for the past few months.
6v6: scout scout soldier soldier demo medic
Prolander: WHAT IS GOING ON HELP
Prolander is my favorite, because it gets people to switch up the meta. Valve should endorse Prolander if they want to get the game competitive, or Highlander I like that too for the same reasons.
But what you see here, THE GAME NEEDS A META IN ORDER TO BE IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE, its start up needs a basis in class line-ups and prolander and Highlander have enough problems of their own, 6v6 is simply, well standard and generalist.
Science, we all have bad and or wrong opinions, and that’s ok.
Switch up the meta? Bruh prolander and highlander both have 1 class limit. With 6s you can switch classes for the situation. If you need to defend, you get a heavy, sniper, pyro, and engie, and if you need to offend, scout, solly, and demo.
Tbh the community of TF2 is well above any MOBA and FPS since most of us can connect with our newer players. In MOBAs the creaters usually care more of the highest league's balances which can lead to annoyances in the smaller leagues which are ignored. IE Necrophos in DotA 2, Many tanks and assasians in HoTS.
So I like how you point out the difference and major weaknesses but what would be you're alternative and your solution to what they should do to each class
When FUNKe puts a rusty instrumental in and it ties everything together better
Is it just me that thinks if competitive mode was 9v9, these problems would be much less impactful?
Maybe its biased, as I enjoy Highlander format more than 6v6, but in the competitive mode we have now, team mates are not always very open to people playing these "specialist classes". And when bridging the gap between casual and competitive, people are simply going to want to play them.
I've been thinking similarly. It makes sense to me that the lower your playercount, the less viable specialist classes will be. (Spy is a fantastic example of this. I'm not sure how you'd balance him for a 6v6).
Funke says that the 6's format is the result of a long time of experimentation, so I'm wondering what specific issues they ran into in the past when trying to run games with higher player counts. (Is it enjoyable and coherent to watch? Are there long, drawn out stalemates or lines of defense?)
9v9 is a mess
6s has proven to be the best format for competitive, deal with it
Valve just needs to follow it instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and miserably failing
If we are going to take Funke's suggestion and balance the game around competitive (while not "sacrificing" casual, so to speak), ideally, each class should have some place in the game. They don't need to be "viable" in that not every class needs to be versatile, but there should at least be some specialty that the class can fulfill. This seems to be Valve's attitude as well, at least if the Valve quotes from 2011 in the video are still reliable.
As Funke outlined in the video, balancing the spy for 6s so that his playstyle and specialty is "viable" would be extremely difficult. The player count is low enough that his disguises are far less effective, and he struggles to fulfill a niche that the sniper cannot (according to Funke, anyhow). As I've said earlier, the lower the player count, the instances in which specialist classes are useful grow smaller and smaller.
Joy im seafching for a game...
still seafching...
I would be out
Perhaps HL's class limits could be modified so that there's at least some wiggle room without allowing teams to stack 3 heavies. A different limit per class could help with that. Anyway, do you mean that playing those classes is mind numbingly boring, or too frustrating?
I completely agree with almost everything that you've mentioned here, but I'm really hesitant to balance the game around 6s, because I don't think that 6s is the best way that the community could do competitive. Don't get me wrong, 9v9, regardless of class limits or not, is just too big, but 6v6 fosters a meta in which only 2 game modes can be played, 5CP and KoTH (if FUNKe ever reads this, I encourage him to discuss that topic in a whole other video, or at least put an annotation in this one to a few difference reliable sources which talk about the 5CP problem) and only 4 classes have a purpose until last point. Again, for a 6v6 game mode, I think this is the best way to do it, but I just don't think that 6v6 is the best way to do competitive TF2. This is why I got so excited for Sigafoo doing his 7v7 experiment a few months back. It was such a breath of fresh air and I thought that it had a lot of potential on map types like attack/defend and PL. However, it received very little community support and ultimately failed because people were unwilling to try something new. It went completely under the radar to the point that I think 50% or more of the competitive community didn't even know about it. As a guy who pinholes himself into a single specialist class, the Engineer, I'm not the best promoter for a mode like this, but if the tournament had succeeded, I would have totally given a new "7s" format a try in equivalent of UGC Iron. This failed entirely because competitive TF2 players are completely closed-minded to change, and that's something that we've gotta work on. I'm closed-minded in the sense that I don't like playing much besides Engineer. I get that and am working to expand myself. The same should be true for anyone who only plays demo, scout, soldier, med, or any of the specialist classes only. This isn't just a 6s thing. This is an entire competitive community thing. For all we still know, 7s or 8s could be the golden competitive format and we'd never know it.
...So, to wrap up my mini-rant here, I think that we need to start trying to figure out different, more-inclusive game modes that take the best of HL and combine it with the best of 6s. The two modes themselves are vastly different, and the communities rarely get along. That being said, there's gotta be a way to get the best of these two modes together... We just haven't found it yet.
The Grandmaster The current world champion 6s team won the Sigafoo cup, and there were plenty of Invite players in it, so I literally have no clue what you're talking about as far as it going under the radar or the community being unwilling to try it.
The general consensus was that it was like Prolander but worse due to the extra player, and Prolander was dropped because it wasn't as good as normal 6s. Sigafoo also tried to do too much, adding an extra player AND restricting it to Highlander class limits. If the cup only added a player, then we might be playing 7s. But then again, the 7th player would likely just be a full-time Sniper, and a Sniper out for your Medic's blood AND two Scouts ready to wipe your team if you leave a flank open isn't very fun. Right now to run Sniper you have to give up a better general class which makes it a risk.
You can't take the "best" of HL (as if that atrocity has anything you could consider "best". I guess you mean the single-class limit) and mix it with the best of 6s. 6s is fun and works because every class is played to its strengths at all times.
The Grandmaster 6s is the best way cuz its what is established now, we dont need another stupid fucking "meta revolution" from pubbers with 4 hours because people who are actually good at the game have tested and tested for years whats best
learn to
paragraph pls
Desantti Agreed. :p
I really like that you used Anything You Can Do and made good lyrics and you even know what falsetto is wow like dang