People: "Why is my tea so sweet?" Me: "Too much sugar" Experts: "NO! THE DENOMINATION OF H20 WHILST HEATED TO A DEGREE CELCIUS OF X REQUIRES A 3.2X OF BOILING TIME TO EQUATE TO THE STANDING TIME OF THE PERFORATED DRIED TEA LEAF VESSEL IN ORDER TO ALLOW FOR A LARGER QUANTITY OF GRANULATED SUGAR CANE TO BECOME ADHERED TO THE MOLECULAR LEVEL OF THE TEA LEAVES IN WHICH ALTHOUGH YOU MAY HAVE APPLIED SUGAR IN THE CORRECT FOMULAEC DOSEAGE....." Me: "YES! TOO MUCH SUGAR!!!" Experts: "NO! YOU'RE TELLING THE STORY WRONG!!"
The only way to really figure this out would be to use an oscilloscope and look at the ramp-up of current / drop-off of voltage. Different batteries will behave differently under different loads, so different guns will produce different results.
It’s kinda funny watching the airsoft community still learning about lipos/Lions and brushless stuff that RC people learned over a decade ago. Glad it’s catching up though 👍 BTW “C” ratings are relative to its Mah rating airsoft channels always seem to skip that important fact, also MOST battery manufacturers lie about the ‘c’ rate anyway
miles behind the RC community haha. like how things are just barely coming out with deans connectors instead of the garbage tamiya, when RC has been using XT-30/60/90 and things like that. im about to swap all my AEG stuff over to XT-60, its just easier to work with all around.
The reason the motor is getting hotter with an 11.1v is because all of the ETUs you've listed will require Active/Passive Braking to prevent overspin, especially at UK power limits and without the cut off lever and trigger shuttle etc providing resistance. There's more overspin with higher voltages because, well, gears have more inertia when they're moving faster. If you hook up your AEG to a proper amp/wattage meter (the Titan's inbuilt meter isn't particularly well isolated and is therefore not really useful except for comparative ratings within the same build), turned off active braking completely and tried it on some massive monster 7.4v and 11.1v batteries (to eliminate hitting the battery's discharge ceiling), you'll find the amps they draw are pretty similar. What *is* an issue that can cause some voodoo fuckery with certain batteries with higher nominal ratings being outperformed by lower nominal ratings is, as you've pointed out, some manufacturers will put any old rubbish on the label, and not all cells are equal in terms of voltage sag. TITAN Power Li-ions, for example, tend to have horrible voltag sag, even when compared to other brands of Li-ions or scratchbuilt 18650 based packs with high end samsung cells. Thisbecomes incredibly apparent in high performance (and thus high current draw) builds, and even the best of the best 18650 cells, as you've pointed out, are not suitable for short, high current spikes.
If you listen again, I note that without an ETU the same thing can & has occurred. ETU manufacturers have told me "no, it just allows power to flow". Everybody can be wrong in a conversation, but only one side can be right...
@@NegativeAirsoftTech I mean, if your only takeaway is "Higher voltages make motors go faster and therefore heat up faster" then yes, that's true, but the temperature delta you get from turning on AB is going to be *massively* exacerbating the issue. Of course, as you've mentioned, this can vary massively from build to build, so big ol pinch of salt. Personally, I set up AEGS for 11.1vs for all my client's builds just because I know that telling them "Don't go above a 9.9v battery or you'll hit PME and kill the piston" tends to end up with people returning guns with PME'd pistons going "uh it just broke all of a sudden, ignore the fact that the last input voltage reading on the TITAN says '12.4v' cough cough"
I really appreciate you sharing the things you've learned over time. So much of airsoft teching is guesswork and that can get expensive and time-consuming to get decent performance. Keep on doing what you do!
For the first time I hear some things that I like. It's true that on airsfot and other hobbies as well you listen a lot "you need this and that ...". I'm very new at airsoft tech and I read a lot of recepies that not all true for all the cases. For majority of the cases perhaps, for v2 gearbox perhaps I don't know. But I know how electrical stuff works I do know and all it was spoken here somohow is true. On the electrical motors world (generaly speaking) if you have a big voltage the motor will heat, if your electrical power is high and your load(spring) is very low your motor will heat. The ambient can cause also heat on a working motor. It makes sense to me that the battery selection depends of spring, mosfet, gears, lub, shims, bushings or nearings and motor becuase all of this contributes for the work (j) of your machine. Finally! I can give you an example time to time I hear you need to change the air nozzle because is stock and plastic. I say no, I don't it's working fine. I have the fps, joules I want l and don't have feeding issues. Why should I do it?
Really glad you’ve made this video, last Sunday I was using my Specna arms Edge 2.0 with a gate aster in it running an 11.1v 1450 MaH and I noticed that my grip was getting really warm and it made me wonder what the hell was causing it. Now I know the answer
I own 2 specna replicas. A core series and one of the new prime models. the core series has be completely upgraded and the prime is stock and will probably stay that way. the prime love running on an 11.1v and the core hates to run on 11.1v even though its built to run on one of those batteries so I stick to 7.4v on that one. Great explanation.
I am an electrician and what you say do makes sense, its not as easy as ohm's law. A 12 volt system would not work with a 24 volt battery and only draw half the amperage. ASG say you need at least a m105 spring to run an 11.1 in the Evo 3, below 1 joule run 7.4 or 9.9. So different sources kinda say the same can we agree on that? Conclussion : Dont run an 11.1 volt on sub-1 joule builds. I know the video is 1 years old but really appreciate your thought on this, I do absolutely not have the same AEG experience and knowledge but its nice to know I was on the right track. Thanks !
I do enjoy well thought out replies although when people agree with me it does leave me unable to be a dick to them.... which is annoying. Unless that's the reason I use to be a dick & in that case, you sir are a smelly bum face poo brain plop head.
You can buzzword this methodology as “shimming load to battery” and have it take off as new lingo Thank you for another banger of an informative video!
That is so true mate I am a fully qualified electrician myself, but I will never touch any of my guns. I will always get someone to do them and even the choose the right batteries for the build my local airsoft shop for any guns that need fixing or upgrades
As an electrical engineer, your description of how these guns behave based on the batteries is reasonable. The reason the heat is being generated, but having lower performance is likely happening due to something called inrush current. To understand inrush current, you'll have to understand the dynamics of how motors work. The more load you put on a motor, the more current it will draw. At the worst case, when the motor has its rotor completely locked in place and unable to move, it will have a maximum current draw. You can calculate this by taking the motor out of the gun, and measuring the resistance across the motor windings. Then, you take your battery voltage, and divide it by the number of ohms you have. It will likely be less than 1 ohm (the kv rating being higher will increase this). "the motor will take as much as it needs" is only technically correct. It won't just pull everything you give it if all you have is current. The voltage will change the current draw. Something else will also determine this ia ESR, Equivalent Series Resistance sometimes called internal resistance. Most manufacturers who make the cells that NUPROL for example put in their packs will have a datasheet which is just a fancy term for a spec sheet for the batteries explaining the ESR. It will be measured in ohms too. Please be aware, that Panasonic and a few other manufacturers don't seem to note this, but it's still the case with any cell you get your hands on. If you add this ESR value to the motor resistance, and then do your battery voltage divided by the result of that, you'll get the actual current draw when the motor starts. It will probably be slightly less than this if it's allowed to spin inside the gun because harmonics and inductance is a thing, which I'd gladly explain, however it's somewhat negligible in the scope of this conversation. What you'll find is these lithium ion packs that tend to heat the motor up will probably have a low ESR compared to the LiPo cells. You'll also notice that there's probably going to be a graph of some sort explaining the characteristics and voltage drop when you draw current from the battery. Higher voltage at higher currents means lower ESR if you find these graphs. What it sounds like you've found is that the LiFe cells typically have a higher ESR, which reduces inrush current draw on the motors, making for better overall performance.
As a "hobby EE" i cant belive i had to scroll this far to find this. This is exactly my thoughts as well. This is the right answer, i hope Negative Airsoft sees it!
" The voltage will change the current draw." In what sense? Do you mean that if i switch from a 7.4V to a 11.1V on an AEG, the current draw will increase?
@@meanmarine24 Yes, more voltage across a load/resistor (motor) = More current. A motor increases in resistance the faster it spins, which is why they wont keep gaining speed forever but settles at a certain RPM at a given voltage. When you force a motor to run slower by making it turn a gearbox you lower the electrical resistance in the motor. If you know 'Ohm's Law' you know that [Voltage / Resistance = Current] So an equal voltage across a smaller resistance will equal a higher current. Hence why a slightly higher voltage will make so much more heat, it can pump much more current through the small motor.
The C rating of lipos is well known to be almost fictitious with many manufacturers embellishing. High C ratings are only required for very high current applications.
I think the reason the amperage goes up with a lower voltage battery is down to the wattage requirement of the motor. This is something I ran into when installing a circuit for my air compressor. The motor "wants" a set amount of wattage, not necessarily current. W = v*a. The motor wants that power no matter what, and it will draw as many amps as it can (based on the voltage) to put out that power. It's the same reason that an undersized battery will make the gun run slower. In that case you either need to up the voltage or the amperage to compensate. It just so happens that raising the voltage also increases the speed the motor turns at. (Obligatory, "I did not go to sckool for this stuff" disclaimer)
" In that case you either need to up the voltage or the amperage to compensate." You simply cannot change the amperage of a motor without either changing the load(Resistance) or the Voltage across it. To change the load you could either make the rest of the gun run smoother, with less friction. Or you could get a "better" motor, with thicker windings. Thicker wires/windings = Less Resistance. Its all in Ohms Law.
It's down to the resistance of the motor which comes from the gauge of the copper wire used in the windings amongst other things, what you are seeing is high winding resistance which then causes a lower power output, the lower power output is related to the loss of current used by the motor which gets converted into heat, you are seeing this because the 11.1V exceeds the nominal current draw of the motor or in other words the motor isn't designed to have 11.1V pushed through it for sustained periods.
That’s so interesting, I’ve been doing tech work since the mid 2000’s on my own AEGs and ran a service business doing builds for customers for a while. I came to many similar conclusions as yourself but could never figure out why an 11.1 30C 1400mAh would cause the motor to get hot while an 11.1 1200mAh 25C would not (this is an example on my current primary M4)
Honestly I've been using the 3000mah 11.1 from titan for 3 years. So far no issue. Have had a few friends had their li-ions crap out or cause issues with their fets. This has been super interesting.
Not making any claims. Just stating my experience. Honestly it was the perfect battery until I went wanker with 13/1 gears. OH THE PME. melted the bevel and pinion striped the piston rack. Funny bit was it ran like a dream for 3 full weekends. Then screeeeeeeeech
V=IR. R (resistance) in this case being the motor/gearbox. So if R is constant and V goes up, I (current) also goes up. More current, more heat. 11.1 will always pump more heat into a system than 7.4V. this isn't shocking.
Recently got my first aeg. Ran 3 different lipo batteries with it. A specna 11.1v (1000mAh 20c) (came with my charger coz it was the cheapest charger that had good reviews) causes double shot like 80% of the time, feels quite reactive. Tried a VP racing 7.4v (1300mAh, 25c) slower ROF on full than the 11.1v (to be expected) no double shot, very good trigger response. And a nuprol 7.4v (1450mAh 20c). Worse trigger response than both the 11.1v and VP 7.4. But its still good enough. For this specific RIF (SA-E09 with gate x-asr mosfet) and from my experience with this RIF so far, and the few batteries i tried, the 7.4v 1300mAh 25c from VP racing (deans) is what im gonna stick to.
Unless you have a regulator installed between the motor and the battery. The motor will draw every ounce of energy available until it fails or the current over powers the shielding and starts arcing.
In this case, it is better to use PWM control of the processor unit, which can regulate the ROF, because a simple potentiometer creates losses and additional heat on the "regulator" and the battery life will not be extended.
A "technical" explanation for that is, that electric motors are labeled (not in airsoft) with kV (something close to RPM/V) that means if the motor you are using is 1000kV, with a 7.4 you'll get a 7400rpm on the shaft, but if you then use a 11.1 you go up to 11100RPM...... 33% more speed. On a typical scenario for a motor, it would be easily noticeable difference, but here we have constant impulses, not constant RPM, also different torque situations on a full cycle (proportional tension, then release...). The motor manufactured for 7.4 is not 100% suitable nor efficient working with 11.1, but if we used a 11.1 with a kV ratio equivalent to the 7.4 (basically, a lower kV) the heat would be waaaay lower, as it would consume way less amps/h. And, if someone wants to prove that, use a 4S in your AEG and watch how cool is the smoke coming from your motor xD Great video tho', you do approach the knowledge to the users on a nice easy way. Lastly, yes, Airsoft is somehow behind.... like 15 years late, but the problem is not from the hobbyists, it's from the manufacturers, making us deal with cheap old tech for ages.....
Sounds like you've been going down the same rabbit hole I have been on. With my last job, I was even able to borrow an oscilloscope to test the draw on my different batteries. I have been meaning to rent another to further test inrush current. Hardcore agree about the BS of "only use how much energy it needs so get the biggest battery you can." In tests with the oscilloscope and with general RPS testing, it is an important part of the puzzle. A 1000mah 25c vs a 2200mah 25c gave me different readings. A 1200mah 20c was different than a 2000mah 30c. From 900mah to 4000mah and from 15c to 45c, you see a difference. Brushed motors have a linear relationship between speed and voltage but what I didn't understand was the different draws I was getting out of the battery. From what I can tell, it's the torque which is related to current, not just voltage. The bigger, "higher rated" batteries provide more current. Don't understand it enough to say "I have found that part of the puzzle" but it's something I've been trying to go off of. Not sure about brushless though. Interesting to hear about the temps. I've never used 11.1v with brushless motors as I only use brushless motors on setups that I want to use 7.4v with. Then you get differences in what people are using with the brushless. ADV says not to use anything but 18:1 gears, but I see people using 13:1 with Warheads. I have tried multiple RA Option1 brushless motors and found that they just suck. 7.4 is at least better, but they're extremely finicky about what spring is being used or about the battery itself is being used.
lt would be interesting to see some tests done with an adjustable bench PSU and an ammeter to see whats really happening. if the batteries are getting hot i wouldve thought it would be to do with the batteries internal resistance which is determine by the battery type and voltage. so, in theory a 7.4v LiPo should run a lot cooler than a 8.4v NiMH. but who really knows 🤷♂
Look at the rc world if you plug a massive battery in without a speed controller the motor will run till you melt themselves or weld itself together, that's why they use a speed controller to control the power draw to the motor instead of dumping all the battery can into the motor
A controller would be a really nice 'innovation' for airsoft, goigg to voltage control would be perfect but... I don't think you could trust airsofters not to go but it goes to 11 and just weld their trigger contacts
I have a G&G M14 EBR (set up for DMR) that I have done a fair bit of work to, it has a really basic MOSFET in as it is running on contacts. 18K high torque mystery brand motor that came out of something, short stroked by 1 tooth with a rear ported cylinder it clears into by about 4mm. The battery I made my self by getting some 3.5AH 20C LG cells I cant remember the exact specs but I believe they are rated for 40C burst from the data sheet, the main thing is I soldered straight to the cells with a nickel sheet that was 8mm wide by 0.5mm thick so around a 4MM CSA between the cells coming away from the battery to the connecter its all wired in 2.5mm cable throughout the gun, to the MOSFET and to the motor. It doesn't get hot but I will bet that it is because it doesn't have active breaking. Then again the MOSFET is heat slinked to the chassis of the gun so it would take allot of abuse to cause it to cook off.
the motor spins faster with more voltage and more energy put through it, faster turning armature has more momentum, so it needs more active braking to get it to stop. active braking is basically just shorting the motor, so 11.1v batteries with high capacity and high C-ratings will give you a better response, more torque, and faster motor spin, but once you let go of the trigger, it will also need lots of energy to get the thing to stop. a stiffer spring will put more resistance into the system, braking the motor too a little, so the stiffer spring will reduce the need for active braking, thus reducing the heat accumulating in the grip. just assume everything i wrote is BS.
That's generally correct. AB is actually providing current the other way around, making the motor spin "backwards" for a fraction of time... which generates heat, of course. If the mechanical build is properly tuned (ie. it stops snappily without AB active) then the motor won't heat up as much with the same big battery. The number of stops the bevel has is important, as is the stiffness and length of the spring, etc. All of it just depends on how the build is done and how we want to correct certain things. Electronics and AB is the easiest path. Testing some different springs might be a good easy option as well. I tend to prefer hard short ones, for example.
aces video. im going thru trying all my batteries on all my aegs. mind blowing my avalon mp5 runs on a 7.4 just as good and snappy not as fast auto, but its not a high rof aeg unless its built. i would have never known. i also tried the 1 ion i have in my utg combat commando.... butter baby.bloody hell this is fun as shit. thank you sir my whole day has been turned around just by my toys running different. it like i got 7 new aegs!!!!
Generally I try to find a balance in performance and longevity with my guns. Currently I don't have any AEGs with mosfets and tuning, so to get a snappy trigger response on semi I just run 9.9v LiFe. Did my own research into batteries and while I have tried 11.1v, I often find that it gets uncomfortably hot and some of my guns double cycle because they weren't tuned for it. 9.9v is such a good choice and I've yet to find a gun in my collection that didn't run with it and have some sort of drawback that stood out to me. 11.1v has its place but it shouldn't always be the be all end all as some people make it out to be Funny enough I use that same 9.9v battery for my AKs, albeit it's a tight fit in the Zenitco Top Cover.
As electrician all you say is right the problem of the stating is multiple and complicated, but can be closed (IMO) to 2 important information about battery that many give light answers to: 1 the battery are DC 2 the battery used in the AEG dont have advanced electronic controls, so they give all what they can First comment and i would like to say, i love you channel and the fact that many of my teori found reasons here...i run 9.9v Life (better V and safer chemical), fuck the AOE at 12:00, short stroke is the way... One question can you make a video on the different gear ratio?
I am willing to give this a shot. I have ordered a 9.9 life airsoft battey. I have noticed my 11.1 lipogets warm and so do my Gate titan battery wires but the motor doesn’t get warm fast. But those wires do. 7.4v battery can get redhot because its not strong enough since my semi auto fire is what I am concerned about lets try the 9.9 life. I will give an update after it arrives. Cause my aeg is about .95 to 1.1 joules for indoors. So if 11.1 is to strong for that soft spring. Then if the 9.9 should be just right. If this does work me and my tech are going to have a long conversation.
Very well put A lot of people who play airsoft don't really know about lipo batteries and brushless motors I was gonna put in a brush's motor from an r c car and a speed controller to see if I could get that to work but I think it might be a bit of a dangerous gun
There’s a lot to be said for the csa ‘cross sectional area’ of the wires. The current is passing through different guages of wire, so there’s a limiting factor. So we’re working in DC, have you considered eddy currents from the motor. The fact that there is current passing through a circuit board, motor and switch all contained in metal casing could produce eddy currents in itself. Whether or not these could affect the operation would need to be seen. The heat factor of the motor I would suggest has quite a lot to do with the different resistances the current is passing through. The motor and its wiring could be giving high resistance thus causing the heat. I’m a couple of year in to Airsoft and haven’t even opened a gear box, I do understand electrics and electrical science though. Not sure if my points offer any difference to your view on this.
@@NegativeAirsoftTechI wonder if grounding the casing would make any difference. The negative being ground. You’re in a much better position than me to try it, run a bonding wire from the casing to the negative of the battery?
Please Luke, if you do nothing else this month, please learn what a C rating is... It is merely to tell you how fast the battery can be discharged in relation to its capacity. The reason why NIMH/NICAD batteries in airsoft never had a C rating for discharging is they can safely be taken down to and stored at 0 volts without any danger. You cannot do that with Lithium batteries. What people have been trying to tell you is the motor will only draw the CURRENT it needs, but it will get hot if you chuck more VOLTS at it than it needs. Ever seen the battery get too hot? Seen Lipos get destroyed? We all have. The reason for that is the motor is drawing more CURRENT than the battery can safely discharge I think the word ENERGY has little relevance in this case,
Please, if you do nothing else this month, learn that I'm not going to do that. Read the video description. I explain things in a way people understand & I fully understand the C rating, it's the size of the spout on the bottle of water, bigger spout = faster pouring - however you're not understanding the point I'm making in the video because you're too tied up on one thing, that I must be wrong & you must prove it. There are other "experts" in this circus of a comments section that totally disagrees with me AND with what you have just typed... Everybody is right or wrong it would seem.
Like literally every other motor, you should give it what it needs. Anything lower/higher is bad. It all depends on the specs of the motor and only the motor. It has fuck all to do with the build really nothing. If your build needs more power to run then you need a "stronger" motor. Motors have a range and we should stay within it ;) thnx for the video's keep up the good work. Teaching the community!
I am using 7.4 lipo on my asg mxr18 (simple airsoft gun) And i put from a friend a 9.6volt nihm battery The trigger response and full auto was amazing😂
0:32:32 I DON'T FINK YOU HAVE THE FACILITIES FOR THAT BIG MAN
Рік тому+2
I still like the 7.4 3000mAh Li-Ions I have and have been running them for several years now. I read back then that the C rating written on them should be doubled when comparing with other batteries. Also, all numbers matter for the motor: voltage, Amperage and C rating. Same V and C, BUT higher A, will get you faster response, etc.
Started watching and thought I should say, battery manufacturers produce to a standard not a quality. Most bats perform better than listed specs. It's easier to produce down to an industry consistently attainable quality. Airsoft won't push bats that hard, but miss treat any lipo/li ion and it will bite back, and potentially melt your gun. Thanks for vids. Making sense of lots of airsoft shit, and soo many good pointers and things to look out for. 🤙🏻🤙🏻
Interesting stuff to consider, but watching the video and reading the comments has proven to be very informative. I've got a charger that can do LiFes, might try one for science. Couldn't fit one in my MP5k, probably will fit in the M4. Today, I learned things. It's a good day. I had a chum who was an RC fanatic and he got me using LiPos years ago, with a discharge alarm and monitor and honestly, I had never considered the alternatives from that point to this. Before then, I also had a sling-mounted 10.8v stick 🤣
Zero issues with my titan battery packs. And zero funny noises. I think the manufacturer matters more. Ive only been playing for a year and Ive had 2 lipo batterys fail on me $20-30 batteries so not the cheapy batteries and I did not run them dry and they were not left out in the heat. Just a bad roll with the manufacturing die or overpriced Chinese garbage. Who knows. Great video and great info.
so im only about 10 minutes in so i dont know if you touch on it in the video,but the actual battery capacity matters alot more than the c rating. from my experience,a battery with a larger capacity but lower c rating will outperform a battery with a lower capacity and higher c rating.
I love your vids, you act all 'BBllaahh I don't give a S*!t', but deep down you got all our best interests at heart. Totally agree with you 100% on this, have noticed all symptoms you mentioned, hot motors, varying rates of fire. My RIF's may only be basically modified but I would rather keep them functional so I can keep enjoying them and all your tips will help. Keep the vids and musings coming ..
C rating is based on battery capacity so a larger cell at the same voltage at the same C rating the larger battery will be more for that given C rating. (usually in airsoft the rof on a larger size cell at the same C, a 25c 7.4 may be faster response than a 20c 11.1 but the 20c 11.1 will be higher rof) It's one of those things that's kind of a mindfuck until you really grasp the maths.
And like you've said, even doing the maths doesn't make a massive amount of sense without the real world examples. This has proved a pet theory that a Li-ion battery is not a good option for an airsoft gun. The fact that LI-FE put the power up is REALLY interesting as well as people have SWORE Blknd that a battery could not do that.
I run a g and g arp 9&556. I run a tonne of R.C. cars and trucks, got curious and ran one of my 11.1 lipo rc battery in my gun. I gotta say I got a way better game play than with the original 11.1 I got for the gun. This would explain why. Thanks you sir 👍
So essentially the next inovation in airsoft should be a variable voltage/amp regulator So you can regulate how much power it draws so you can use the 11.1v but after much testing say ok thats too much but a 7.4v is not enough but 9v is about right I believe car alternators have them to stop them supplying too much voltage to the battery and causing overheating or in extreme cases exploding
i loaded my 11.1 li-ion for like 30-45 minutes from the 9.X charge it had when taiwangun shipped it to me. it turns out the 11.1v is a fucking suggestion and the battery loaded at 12.4 was still not full and yet it has a trigger response worth of a nimh in winter
I can't even use li ions in my rpk16.ive been tearing my heart out trying to find batteries for it. The 7.4 was simply too thick. I didn't have this problem with my cyma aks74u. The battery I use in my m4 is a matrix 25c 2500 mah 11.1. li ion. nunchuck. I probably have about 5000 rounds on it and no issues.
Ive been using nimh batteries since i started airsoft 3 nearly 4 year ago Run 9.6v in one rif but makes me wonder now am i using the right voltage battery However ive never swapped out geard or anything lol ike that just changed the spring
This was exactly the information i was looking for, thanks for the excellent content my good man. I'm wondering if there's a circuitry error inherent in the design - would the inclusion of capacitors make a big difference do you think? Sounds like basically the entire circuit is being used like a giant capacitor but it's not actually a capacitor so shit gets hot. Probably a bunch of bullshit - make of it what you will lol
@@jediknight1294 No but it could make a big dollop of instant current available for the next trigger pull and speed up response, and give somewhere for the motor generated current to go (other than to heat in the windings) on trigger release
The question is would a 11.1v battery that's 15c would discharge slower than a 30c , so technically 11.1v 15c should see a difference in motor heat? I have ssr4 the motor gets bloody hot on 15c yet 25c it's not as bad, but the size of the battery is different.
11.1 batteries was making my motors hot. They have actually just caused me loads of problems. Gone back to 7.4 and its all fine. Wasted silly money on various 11.1s.
If anyome cares or not now. But im from ireland so limited to 1Joule. Got a high torque motor, bare bones mosfet, different trigger switch and cut off( i was told to get that done dont know what tf it is) i use a 7.4v 35c giant power lipo and its very snappy imo
You should check batterries on some decent chanrger, for eg. iMax B6AC V2 instead of believing Chinese stickers. Some of my batteries were giving out over 12V.
Dc motors have a higher rpm at higher voltage also if you consider a motor as an approximation of a resistor then as per ohms law the motor will draw more current at higher voltage, more current = more heat so to summarise mo voltage => mo rpm => mo rps => mo current => mo heat Batteries have a C rating that limits the max current so motor says mo current mo powa and the battery says fooq off 😂
Should I be honest. I sometimes like a 11 v lipo. Why? Bollocks, that is why. However, for most people having a 7,4 and a good AEG is better, because the AEGs´ performance is more important for trigger response than the Lipo. Also a 7,4 won´t break the AEG as soon. But to each their own, I mainly like 7,4s, if I don´t use gas, and it works well having the "weaker" lipos.
Ok, ok....this might be my issue on my g&p i5 build. The 11.1 makes things just too hot and 9.6 nihmi only works while the charge is high. This might be the solution to my heat/gremlin issue with this turd of a G&P ( honestly they have normally been the reference here in the states for decades , this Thor rapid not so much ) .
This motors work in a range from 8 to 12 volts, a fully charged 7,4 lipo is around 8,4 volt so gives the motor the bare minimum to work, the 11,1 fully charged is around 12,6 so a bit over what’s is intended A 9,9 fully charge should be from 10 to 11 volts so just right for the job
@@NegativeAirsoftTech calling it energy weird terminology, energy could mean alot of things. generally speaking current (amps) is how many electrons are flowing, current is DRAWN by the motor etc voltage is how hard those electrons are pushed, think of it like water. water pressure is voltage flow rate is amps the size of the pipe is resistance smaller pipe (more resistance) means you need MORE pressure (volts) to get the same amount of water (amps) through the pipe and vice versa
People:
"Why is my tea so sweet?"
Me:
"Too much sugar"
Experts:
"NO! THE DENOMINATION OF H20 WHILST HEATED TO A DEGREE CELCIUS OF X REQUIRES A 3.2X OF BOILING TIME TO EQUATE TO THE STANDING TIME OF THE PERFORATED DRIED TEA LEAF VESSEL IN ORDER TO ALLOW FOR A LARGER QUANTITY OF GRANULATED SUGAR CANE TO BECOME ADHERED TO THE MOLECULAR LEVEL OF THE TEA LEAVES IN WHICH ALTHOUGH YOU MAY HAVE APPLIED SUGAR IN THE CORRECT FOMULAEC DOSEAGE....."
Me:
"YES! TOO MUCH SUGAR!!!"
Experts:
"NO! YOU'RE TELLING THE STORY WRONG!!"
The only way to really figure this out would be to use an oscilloscope and look at the ramp-up of current / drop-off of voltage.
Different batteries will behave differently under different loads, so different guns will produce different results.
Or you know... read a spec sheet. Look at a schematic.
I was getting overspin on my kwa ronnin recon on 11.1 liion
So dropped to 7.4, no overspin and trigger response was just as good as the 11.1
It’s kinda funny watching the airsoft community still learning about lipos/Lions and brushless stuff that RC people learned over a decade ago. Glad it’s catching up though 👍 BTW “C” ratings are relative to its Mah rating airsoft channels always seem to skip that important fact, also MOST battery manufacturers lie about the ‘c’ rate anyway
Yes, we're shit? Duh.
Right!? Brushless engines was standard from like 2005
Battery manufacturersie about everything, look at pule ratings
same in the nerf community funny enough. they been doing lipos for like a decade now I believe.
miles behind the RC community haha. like how things are just barely coming out with deans connectors instead of the garbage tamiya, when RC has been using XT-30/60/90 and things like that. im about to swap all my AEG stuff over to XT-60, its just easier to work with all around.
The reason the motor is getting hotter with an 11.1v is because all of the ETUs you've listed will require Active/Passive Braking to prevent overspin, especially at UK power limits and without the cut off lever and trigger shuttle etc providing resistance. There's more overspin with higher voltages because, well, gears have more inertia when they're moving faster.
If you hook up your AEG to a proper amp/wattage meter (the Titan's inbuilt meter isn't particularly well isolated and is therefore not really useful except for comparative ratings within the same build), turned off active braking completely and tried it on some massive monster 7.4v and 11.1v batteries (to eliminate hitting the battery's discharge ceiling), you'll find the amps they draw are pretty similar.
What *is* an issue that can cause some voodoo fuckery with certain batteries with higher nominal ratings being outperformed by lower nominal ratings is, as you've pointed out, some manufacturers will put any old rubbish on the label, and not all cells are equal in terms of voltage sag. TITAN Power Li-ions, for example, tend to have horrible voltag sag, even when compared to other brands of Li-ions or scratchbuilt 18650 based packs with high end samsung cells. Thisbecomes incredibly apparent in high performance (and thus high current draw) builds, and even the best of the best 18650 cells, as you've pointed out, are not suitable for short, high current spikes.
If you listen again, I note that without an ETU the same thing can & has occurred.
ETU manufacturers have told me "no, it just allows power to flow".
Everybody can be wrong in a conversation, but only one side can be right...
@@NegativeAirsoftTech I mean, if your only takeaway is "Higher voltages make motors go faster and therefore heat up faster" then yes, that's true, but the temperature delta you get from turning on AB is going to be *massively* exacerbating the issue. Of course, as you've mentioned, this can vary massively from build to build, so big ol pinch of salt.
Personally, I set up AEGS for 11.1vs for all my client's builds just because I know that telling them "Don't go above a 9.9v battery or you'll hit PME and kill the piston" tends to end up with people returning guns with PME'd pistons going "uh it just broke all of a sudden, ignore the fact that the last input voltage reading on the TITAN says '12.4v' cough cough"
I wonder how much the "ON Resistance" of the ETU mosfets affect the motor heating.
New to airsoft, been really appreciative of the content. Learning a good bit.
I really appreciate you sharing the things you've learned over time. So much of airsoft teching is guesswork and that can get expensive and time-consuming to get decent performance. Keep on doing what you do!
For the first time I hear some things that I like. It's true that on airsfot and other hobbies as well you listen a lot "you need this and that ...". I'm very new at airsoft tech and I read a lot of recepies that not all true for all the cases. For majority of the cases perhaps, for v2 gearbox perhaps I don't know. But I know how electrical stuff works I do know and all it was spoken here somohow is true. On the electrical motors world (generaly speaking) if you have a big voltage the motor will heat, if your electrical power is high and your load(spring) is very low your motor will heat. The ambient can cause also heat on a working motor. It makes sense to me that the battery selection depends of spring, mosfet, gears, lub, shims, bushings or nearings and motor becuase all of this contributes for the work (j) of your machine. Finally! I can give you an example time to time I hear you need to change the air nozzle because is stock and plastic. I say no, I don't it's working fine. I have the fps, joules I want l and don't have feeding issues. Why should I do it?
Really glad you’ve made this video, last Sunday I was using my Specna arms Edge 2.0 with a gate aster in it running an 11.1v 1450 MaH and I noticed that my grip was getting really warm and it made me wonder what the hell was causing it. Now I know the answer
Hmmm i just got the same, and i only have 11.1 2200 batterys
I own 2 specna replicas. A core series and one of the new prime models. the core series has be completely upgraded and the prime is stock and will probably stay that way. the prime love running on an 11.1v and the core hates to run on 11.1v even though its built to run on one of those batteries so I stick to 7.4v on that one. Great explanation.
I am an electrician and what you say do makes sense, its not as easy as ohm's law.
A 12 volt system would not work with a 24 volt battery and only draw half the amperage.
ASG say you need at least a m105 spring to run an 11.1 in the Evo 3, below 1 joule run 7.4 or 9.9.
So different sources kinda say the same can we agree on that?
Conclussion : Dont run an 11.1 volt on sub-1 joule builds.
I know the video is 1 years old but really appreciate your thought on this, I do absolutely not have the same AEG experience and knowledge but its nice to know I was on the right track.
Thanks !
I do enjoy well thought out replies although when people agree with me it does leave me unable to be a dick to them.... which is annoying.
Unless that's the reason I use to be a dick & in that case, you sir are a smelly bum face poo brain plop head.
You can buzzword this methodology as “shimming load to battery” and have it take off as new lingo
Thank you for another banger of an informative video!
Great tip!
That is so true mate I am a fully qualified electrician myself, but I will never touch any of my guns. I will always get someone to do them and even the choose the right batteries for the build my local airsoft shop for any guns that need fixing or upgrades
Lol i have a nccer number and ill open this gun before i touch anything over about 20v. I salute you sir and always turn the main off yourself
As an electrical engineer, your description of how these guns behave based on the batteries is reasonable. The reason the heat is being generated, but having lower performance is likely happening due to something called inrush current.
To understand inrush current, you'll have to understand the dynamics of how motors work. The more load you put on a motor, the more current it will draw. At the worst case, when the motor has its rotor completely locked in place and unable to move, it will have a maximum current draw. You can calculate this by taking the motor out of the gun, and measuring the resistance across the motor windings. Then, you take your battery voltage, and divide it by the number of ohms you have. It will likely be less than 1 ohm (the kv rating being higher will increase this).
"the motor will take as much as it needs" is only technically correct. It won't just pull everything you give it if all you have is current. The voltage will change the current draw.
Something else will also determine this ia ESR, Equivalent Series Resistance sometimes called internal resistance. Most manufacturers who make the cells that NUPROL for example put in their packs will have a datasheet which is just a fancy term for a spec sheet for the batteries explaining the ESR. It will be measured in ohms too. Please be aware, that Panasonic and a few other manufacturers don't seem to note this, but it's still the case with any cell you get your hands on.
If you add this ESR value to the motor resistance, and then do your battery voltage divided by the result of that, you'll get the actual current draw when the motor starts. It will probably be slightly less than this if it's allowed to spin inside the gun because harmonics and inductance is a thing, which I'd gladly explain, however it's somewhat negligible in the scope of this conversation.
What you'll find is these lithium ion packs that tend to heat the motor up will probably have a low ESR compared to the LiPo cells. You'll also notice that there's probably going to be a graph of some sort explaining the characteristics and voltage drop when you draw current from the battery. Higher voltage at higher currents means lower ESR if you find these graphs.
What it sounds like you've found is that the LiFe cells typically have a higher ESR, which reduces inrush current draw on the motors, making for better overall performance.
As a "hobby EE" i cant belive i had to scroll this far to find this.
This is exactly my thoughts as well.
This is the right answer, i hope Negative Airsoft sees it!
@@ItsBoyRed He isn't interested. The comment was more for those who are also interested as to why this is happening.
" The voltage will change the current draw." In what sense? Do you mean that if i switch from a 7.4V to a 11.1V on an AEG, the current draw will increase?
@@meanmarine24 Yes, more voltage across a load/resistor (motor) = More current.
A motor increases in resistance the faster it spins, which is why they wont keep gaining speed forever but settles at a certain RPM at a given voltage.
When you force a motor to run slower by making it turn a gearbox you lower the electrical resistance in the motor.
If you know 'Ohm's Law' you know that [Voltage / Resistance = Current]
So an equal voltage across a smaller resistance will equal a higher current.
Hence why a slightly higher voltage will make so much more heat, it can pump much more current through the small motor.
@@ItsBoyRed Have you ever tested an AEG with a wattmeter, or tested it via a PSU with current meter?
The C rating of lipos is well known to be almost fictitious with many manufacturers embellishing. High C ratings are only required for very high current applications.
I can taste the comments now....
Well batteries are good snacks 🤡
@@ambershangout7226 they give me the shits
I can smell the comments
Well as someone who is looking to swap to lipos this is really interesting
@@wombloid1037 nothing wrong with lipo batteries, I'm just opening eyes & raising eyebrows. 😉
I think the reason the amperage goes up with a lower voltage battery is down to the wattage requirement of the motor. This is something I ran into when installing a circuit for my air compressor.
The motor "wants" a set amount of wattage, not necessarily current. W = v*a. The motor wants that power no matter what, and it will draw as many amps as it can (based on the voltage) to put out that power. It's the same reason that an undersized battery will make the gun run slower. In that case you either need to up the voltage or the amperage to compensate. It just so happens that raising the voltage also increases the speed the motor turns at. (Obligatory, "I did not go to sckool for this stuff" disclaimer)
" In that case you either need to up the voltage or the amperage to compensate."
You simply cannot change the amperage of a motor without either changing the load(Resistance) or the Voltage across it.
To change the load you could either make the rest of the gun run smoother, with less friction.
Or you could get a "better" motor, with thicker windings.
Thicker wires/windings = Less Resistance.
Its all in Ohms Law.
Nice. Appreciate the insight. I'll be checking out the 9 volts.
It's down to the resistance of the motor which comes from the gauge of the copper wire used in the windings amongst other things, what you are seeing is high winding resistance which then causes a lower power output, the lower power output is related to the loss of current used by the motor which gets converted into heat, you are seeing this because the 11.1V exceeds the nominal current draw of the motor or in other words the motor isn't designed to have 11.1V pushed through it for sustained periods.
Bum sausage
Dammit man. I did 4 years of power electronics at college and now im getting ptsd flashbacks!! Aaaarrrgh!
Jajajaja nice comennt
An education.
As I’m looking into batteries for my stuff,this has came at the right time.
9.9v on the shopping list.😊
That’s so interesting, I’ve been doing tech work since the mid 2000’s on my own AEGs and ran a service business doing builds for customers for a while. I came to many similar conclusions as yourself but could never figure out why an 11.1 30C 1400mAh would cause the motor to get hot while an 11.1 1200mAh 25C would not (this is an example on my current primary M4)
The flap on battery you're referring to is a nickel strip. Easy to fix but it's not exactly durable.
Very easy to fix, you just need a battery spot-welder.
Or risk damaging your cell with a mighty hot iron.
Honestly I've been using the 3000mah 11.1 from titan for 3 years. So far no issue. Have had a few friends had their li-ions crap out or cause issues with their fets. This has been super interesting.
Variables - I was loving 7.4v LiOn but then after seeing them start to fall apart etc...
I'm fairly sure their recent cells have got worse in quality.
Not making any claims. Just stating my experience. Honestly it was the perfect battery until I went wanker with 13/1 gears. OH THE PME. melted the bevel and pinion striped the piston rack. Funny bit was it ran like a dream for 3 full weekends. Then screeeeeeeeech
V=IR. R (resistance) in this case being the motor/gearbox. So if R is constant and V goes up, I (current) also goes up. More current, more heat. 11.1 will always pump more heat into a system than 7.4V. this isn't shocking.
Recently got my first aeg. Ran 3 different lipo batteries with it. A specna 11.1v (1000mAh 20c) (came with my charger coz it was the cheapest charger that had good reviews) causes double shot like 80% of the time, feels quite reactive. Tried a VP racing 7.4v (1300mAh, 25c) slower ROF on full than the 11.1v (to be expected) no double shot, very good trigger response. And a nuprol 7.4v (1450mAh 20c). Worse trigger response than both the 11.1v and VP 7.4. But its still good enough. For this specific RIF (SA-E09 with gate x-asr mosfet) and from my experience with this RIF so far, and the few batteries i tried, the 7.4v 1300mAh 25c from VP racing (deans) is what im gonna stick to.
Amazing video, thank you for this (and your other vids)!
You'll be hearing from my lawyer, you've just made my brain implode and I demand compensation
When people post a whole pile of formula like "JUST UNDERSTAND, OK?"
Unless you have a regulator installed between the motor and the battery. The motor will draw every ounce of energy available until it fails or the current over powers the shielding and starts arcing.
Wonder if a simple voltage regulator would help? Regulate it down from 11.1 or whatever to 9.6, 7.4, etc.
In this case, it is better to use PWM control of the processor unit, which can regulate the ROF, because a simple potentiometer creates losses and additional heat on the "regulator" and the battery life will not be extended.
A "technical" explanation for that is, that electric motors are labeled (not in airsoft) with kV (something close to RPM/V) that means if the motor you are using is 1000kV, with a 7.4 you'll get a 7400rpm on the shaft, but if you then use a 11.1 you go up to 11100RPM...... 33% more speed. On a typical scenario for a motor, it would be easily noticeable difference, but here we have constant impulses, not constant RPM, also different torque situations on a full cycle (proportional tension, then release...).
The motor manufactured for 7.4 is not 100% suitable nor efficient working with 11.1, but if we used a 11.1 with a kV ratio equivalent to the 7.4 (basically, a lower kV) the heat would be waaaay lower, as it would consume way less amps/h. And, if someone wants to prove that, use a 4S in your AEG and watch how cool is the smoke coming from your motor xD Great video tho', you do approach the knowledge to the users on a nice easy way.
Lastly, yes, Airsoft is somehow behind.... like 15 years late, but the problem is not from the hobbyists, it's from the manufacturers, making us deal with cheap old tech for ages.....
I use both lipo’s and lion’s these days but for a long time I used LiFePo4’s and was happy. I should go back.
Sounds like you've been going down the same rabbit hole I have been on. With my last job, I was even able to borrow an oscilloscope to test the draw on my different batteries. I have been meaning to rent another to further test inrush current. Hardcore agree about the BS of "only use how much energy it needs so get the biggest battery you can." In tests with the oscilloscope and with general RPS testing, it is an important part of the puzzle. A 1000mah 25c vs a 2200mah 25c gave me different readings. A 1200mah 20c was different than a 2000mah 30c. From 900mah to 4000mah and from 15c to 45c, you see a difference. Brushed motors have a linear relationship between speed and voltage but what I didn't understand was the different draws I was getting out of the battery. From what I can tell, it's the torque which is related to current, not just voltage. The bigger, "higher rated" batteries provide more current. Don't understand it enough to say "I have found that part of the puzzle" but it's something I've been trying to go off of.
Not sure about brushless though. Interesting to hear about the temps. I've never used 11.1v with brushless motors as I only use brushless motors on setups that I want to use 7.4v with. Then you get differences in what people are using with the brushless. ADV says not to use anything but 18:1 gears, but I see people using 13:1 with Warheads. I have tried multiple RA Option1 brushless motors and found that they just suck. 7.4 is at least better, but they're extremely finicky about what spring is being used or about the battery itself is being used.
lt would be interesting to see some tests done with an adjustable bench PSU and an ammeter to see whats really happening. if the batteries are getting hot i wouldve thought it would be to do with the batteries internal resistance which is determine by the battery type and voltage. so, in theory a 7.4v LiPo should run a lot cooler than a 8.4v NiMH. but who really knows 🤷♂
Look at the rc world if you plug a massive battery in without a speed controller the motor will run till you melt themselves or weld itself together, that's why they use a speed controller to control the power draw to the motor instead of dumping all the battery can into the motor
Not if your an electrician or an airsofter on the internet!
@@NegativeAirsoftTech 😂🤣 so true 🤙
A controller would be a really nice 'innovation' for airsoft, goigg to voltage control would be perfect but... I don't think you could trust airsofters not to go but it goes to 11 and just weld their trigger contacts
I have a G&G M14 EBR (set up for DMR) that I have done a fair bit of work to, it has a really basic MOSFET in as it is running on contacts. 18K high torque mystery brand motor that came out of something, short stroked by 1 tooth with a rear ported cylinder it clears into by about 4mm. The battery I made my self by getting some 3.5AH 20C LG cells I cant remember the exact specs but I believe they are rated for 40C burst from the data sheet, the main thing is I soldered straight to the cells with a nickel sheet that was 8mm wide by 0.5mm thick so around a 4MM CSA between the cells coming away from the battery to the connecter its all wired in 2.5mm cable throughout the gun, to the MOSFET and to the motor. It doesn't get hot but I will bet that it is because it doesn't have active breaking. Then again the MOSFET is heat slinked to the chassis of the gun so it would take allot of abuse to cause it to cook off.
Science
@@NegativeAirsoftTech ain’t no kill like overkill.
the motor spins faster with more voltage and more energy put through it, faster turning armature has more momentum, so it needs more active braking to get it to stop. active braking is basically just shorting the motor, so 11.1v batteries with high capacity and high C-ratings will give you a better response, more torque, and faster motor spin, but once you let go of the trigger, it will also need lots of energy to get the thing to stop. a stiffer spring will put more resistance into the system, braking the motor too a little, so the stiffer spring will reduce the need for active braking, thus reducing the heat accumulating in the grip.
just assume everything i wrote is BS.
Or doesn't apply to every build....
That's generally correct. AB is actually providing current the other way around, making the motor spin "backwards" for a fraction of time... which generates heat, of course. If the mechanical build is properly tuned (ie. it stops snappily without AB active) then the motor won't heat up as much with the same big battery.
The number of stops the bevel has is important, as is the stiffness and length of the spring, etc.
All of it just depends on how the build is done and how we want to correct certain things. Electronics and AB is the easiest path. Testing some different springs might be a good easy option as well. I tend to prefer hard short ones, for example.
aces video. im going thru trying all my batteries on all my aegs. mind blowing my avalon mp5 runs on a 7.4 just as good and snappy not as fast auto, but its not a high rof aeg unless its built. i would have never known. i also tried the 1 ion i have in my utg combat commando.... butter baby.bloody hell this is fun as shit. thank you sir my whole day has been turned around just by my toys running different. it like i got 7 new aegs!!!!
Generally I try to find a balance in performance and longevity with my guns. Currently I don't have any AEGs with mosfets and tuning, so to get a snappy trigger response on semi I just run 9.9v LiFe. Did my own research into batteries and while I have tried 11.1v, I often find that it gets uncomfortably hot and some of my guns double cycle because they weren't tuned for it. 9.9v is such a good choice and I've yet to find a gun in my collection that didn't run with it and have some sort of drawback that stood out to me.
11.1v has its place but it shouldn't always be the be all end all as some people make it out to be
Funny enough I use that same 9.9v battery for my AKs, albeit it's a tight fit in the Zenitco Top Cover.
I'm lost with all this stuff tbh I just get what ever battery fits a particular riff
As electrician all you say is right the problem of the stating is multiple and complicated, but can be closed (IMO) to 2 important information about battery that many give light answers to:
1 the battery are DC
2 the battery used in the AEG dont have advanced electronic controls, so they give all what they can
First comment and i would like to say, i love you channel and the fact that many of my teori found reasons here...i run 9.9v Life (better V and safer chemical), fuck the AOE at 12:00, short stroke is the way... One question can you make a video on the different gear ratio?
I am willing to give this a shot. I have ordered a 9.9 life airsoft battey. I have noticed my 11.1 lipogets warm and so do my Gate titan battery wires but the motor doesn’t get warm fast. But those wires do. 7.4v battery can get redhot because its not strong enough since my semi auto fire is what I am concerned about lets try the 9.9 life. I will give an update after it arrives. Cause my aeg is about .95 to 1.1 joules for indoors. So if 11.1 is to strong for that soft spring. Then if the 9.9 should be just right. If this does work me and my tech are going to have a long conversation.
Very well put A lot of people who play airsoft don't really know about lipo batteries and brushless motors I was gonna put in a brush's motor from an r c car and a speed controller to see if I could get that to work but I think it might be a bit of a dangerous gun
We're very behind compared to RC
There’s a lot to be said for the csa ‘cross sectional area’ of the wires. The current is passing through different guages of wire, so there’s a limiting factor.
So we’re working in DC, have you considered eddy currents from the motor. The fact that there is current passing through a circuit board, motor and switch all contained in metal casing could produce eddy currents in itself.
Whether or not these could affect the operation would need to be seen.
The heat factor of the motor I would suggest has quite a lot to do with the different resistances the current is passing through.
The motor and its wiring could be giving high resistance thus causing the heat.
I’m a couple of year in to Airsoft and haven’t even opened a gear box, I do understand electrics and electrical science though.
Not sure if my points offer any difference to your view on this.
Everything has an effect.
Everything.
@@NegativeAirsoftTechI wonder if grounding the casing would make any difference. The negative being ground. You’re in a much better position than me to try it, run a bonding wire from the casing to the negative of the battery?
Please Luke, if you do nothing else this month, please learn what a C rating is... It is merely to tell you how fast the battery can be discharged in relation to its capacity.
The reason why NIMH/NICAD batteries in airsoft never had a C rating for discharging is they can safely be taken down to and stored at 0 volts without any danger. You cannot do that with Lithium batteries.
What people have been trying to tell you is the motor will only draw the CURRENT it needs, but it will get hot if you chuck more VOLTS at it than it needs.
Ever seen the battery get too hot? Seen Lipos get destroyed? We all have. The reason for that is the motor is drawing more CURRENT than the battery can safely discharge
I think the word ENERGY has little relevance in this case,
Please, if you do nothing else this month, learn that I'm not going to do that.
Read the video description.
I explain things in a way people understand & I fully understand the C rating, it's the size of the spout on the bottle of water, bigger spout = faster pouring - however you're not understanding the point I'm making in the video because you're too tied up on one thing, that I must be wrong & you must prove it.
There are other "experts" in this circus of a comments section that totally disagrees with me AND with what you have just typed...
Everybody is right or wrong it would seem.
This video is golden, I need to show it to my 11.1 only friends 😄
Like literally every other motor, you should give it what it needs. Anything lower/higher is bad. It all depends on the specs of the motor and only the motor. It has fuck all to do with the build really nothing. If your build needs more power to run then you need a "stronger" motor. Motors have a range and we should stay within it ;) thnx for the video's keep up the good work. Teaching the community!
I am using 7.4 lipo on my asg mxr18 (simple airsoft gun)
And i put from a friend a 9.6volt nihm battery
The trigger response and full auto was amazing😂
0:32:32 I DON'T FINK YOU HAVE THE FACILITIES FOR THAT BIG MAN
I still like the 7.4 3000mAh Li-Ions I have and have been running them for several years now. I read back then that the C rating written on them should be doubled when comparing with other batteries. Also, all numbers matter for the motor: voltage, Amperage and C rating. Same V and C, BUT higher A, will get you faster response, etc.
I have a g&g L85a2 (disabled ebb) the manufacture say use an 11.1.. can I use a 9.6 for instance ?
27:45 I feel called out for an idiotic idea I had.
Lol you seem fun to play airsoft with. I can already the hear the "MUTHA FACKA!" Haha
Thank you
Welcome!
Top content, the sharing of knowledge 👌👍👊
Started watching and thought I should say, battery manufacturers produce to a standard not a quality. Most bats perform better than listed specs. It's easier to produce down to an industry consistently attainable quality. Airsoft won't push bats that hard, but miss treat any lipo/li ion and it will bite back, and potentially melt your gun.
Thanks for vids. Making sense of lots of airsoft shit, and soo many good pointers and things to look out for. 🤙🏻🤙🏻
As far as I’m aware, the battery things are called tabs or plates
Interesting stuff to consider, but watching the video and reading the comments has proven to be very informative. I've got a charger that can do LiFes, might try one for science. Couldn't fit one in my MP5k, probably will fit in the M4.
Today, I learned things. It's a good day.
I had a chum who was an RC fanatic and he got me using LiPos years ago, with a discharge alarm and monitor and honestly, I had never considered the alternatives from that point to this. Before then, I also had a sling-mounted 10.8v stick 🤣
Zero issues with my titan battery packs. And zero funny noises. I think the manufacturer matters more. Ive only been playing for a year and Ive had 2 lipo batterys fail on me $20-30 batteries so not the cheapy batteries and I did not run them dry and they were not left out in the heat. Just a bad roll with the manufacturing die or overpriced Chinese garbage. Who knows. Great video and great info.
I had a failure with my 11.1v titan battery and had to warranty it out 😂😂😂. gotta eat my words
so im only about 10 minutes in so i dont know if you touch on it in the video,but the actual battery capacity matters alot more than the c rating. from my experience,a battery with a larger capacity but lower c rating will outperform a battery with a lower capacity and higher c rating.
I love your vids, you act all 'BBllaahh I don't give a S*!t', but deep down you got all our best interests at heart. Totally agree with you 100% on this, have noticed all symptoms you mentioned, hot motors, varying rates of fire. My RIF's may only be basically modified but I would rather keep them functional so I can keep enjoying them and all your tips will help.
Keep the vids and musings coming ..
Oh stoppit... shucks....
C rating is based on battery capacity so a larger cell at the same voltage at the same C rating the larger battery will be more for that given C rating. (usually in airsoft the rof on a larger size cell at the same C, a 25c 7.4 may be faster response than a 20c 11.1 but the 20c 11.1 will be higher rof) It's one of those things that's kind of a mindfuck until you really grasp the maths.
And like you've said, even doing the maths doesn't make a massive amount of sense without the real world examples.
This has proved a pet theory that a Li-ion battery is not a good option for an airsoft gun.
The fact that LI-FE put the power up is REALLY interesting as well as people have SWORE Blknd that a battery could not do that.
i didn't know about the problem of Li-ion cells on the Gate electronics, I love Li-ion chemistry, should I got another brand to avois d thos problems?
I run a g and g arp 9&556. I run a tonne of R.C. cars and trucks, got curious and ran one of my 11.1 lipo rc battery in my gun. I gotta say I got a way better game play than with the original 11.1 I got for the gun. This would explain why. Thanks you sir 👍
I got curious once... Want to know how? Sign up to my onlyfans
So essentially the next inovation in airsoft should be a variable voltage/amp regulator
So you can regulate how much power it draws so you can use the 11.1v but after much testing say ok thats too much but a 7.4v is not enough but 9v is about right
I believe car alternators have them to stop them supplying too much voltage to the battery and causing overheating or in extreme cases exploding
It would be ideal.
i loaded my 11.1 li-ion for like 30-45 minutes from the 9.X charge it had when taiwangun shipped it to me. it turns out the 11.1v is a fucking suggestion and the battery loaded at 12.4 was still not full and yet it has a trigger response worth of a nimh in winter
I can't even use li ions in my rpk16.ive been tearing my heart out trying to find batteries for it. The 7.4 was simply too thick. I didn't have this problem with my cyma aks74u. The battery I use in my m4 is a matrix 25c 2500 mah 11.1. li ion. nunchuck. I probably have about 5000 rounds on it and no issues.
Well, that's if you don't mind switching to 2nd battery midday.
Well duh ! Wasn’t that common knowledge 😉😂 I already knew that ❤️
🤭
Could it be active break overheating the motor? 11,1 bursts more energy than 7,4 as a consequence it needs more energy to counter movement.
What is the gun at 21:00?
Ive been using nimh batteries since i started airsoft 3 nearly 4 year ago
Run 9.6v in one rif but makes me wonder now am i using the right voltage battery
However ive never swapped out geard or anything lol ike that just changed the spring
This was exactly the information i was looking for, thanks for the excellent content my good man.
I'm wondering if there's a circuitry error inherent in the design - would the inclusion of capacitors make a big difference do you think? Sounds like basically the entire circuit is being used like a giant capacitor but it's not actually a capacitor so shit gets hot. Probably a bunch of bullshit - make of it what you will lol
A capacitor wouldn't do anything useful, because we aren't worrying about smoothing the power delivery.
@@jediknight1294 No but it could make a big dollop of instant current available for the next trigger pull and speed up response, and give somewhere for the motor generated current to go (other than to heat in the windings) on trigger release
The question is would a 11.1v battery that's 15c would discharge slower than a 30c , so technically 11.1v 15c should see a difference in motor heat? I have ssr4 the motor gets bloody hot on 15c yet 25c it's not as bad, but the size of the battery is different.
11.1 batteries was making my motors hot. They have actually just caused me loads of problems. Gone back to 7.4 and its all fine.
Wasted silly money on various 11.1s.
Oh dear, the internet electricians are coming...
They're here already
Played this video in my car and blew a speaker. Lol
F
ı think it is the mosfets problem to how many amp did it take from battery.
If anyome cares or not now. But im from ireland so limited to 1Joule. Got a high torque motor, bare bones mosfet, different trigger switch and cut off( i was told to get that done dont know what tf it is) i use a 7.4v 35c giant power lipo and its very snappy imo
Take a look into LiFePO4. I've been running them in my guns for awhile and I love them. 3s makes a 9.6v
You should check batterries on some decent chanrger, for eg. iMax B6AC V2 instead of believing Chinese stickers. Some of my batteries were giving out over 12V.
Here I am literally about to offer a basic mosfet and stick 11.1 in my g3 😅
which maker made that KAC PDW for AEG??
Titan have an amazing warranty on their batteries
Dc motors have a higher rpm at higher voltage also if you consider a motor as an approximation of a resistor then as per ohms law the motor will draw more current at higher voltage, more current = more heat so to summarise mo voltage => mo rpm => mo rps => mo current => mo heat
Batteries have a C rating that limits the max current so motor says mo current mo powa and the battery says fooq off 😂
Can't find any of those LiFe batteries... :((
If I sent you a high end gel blaster would you work on it
Should I be honest. I sometimes like a 11 v lipo. Why? Bollocks, that is why. However, for most people having a 7,4 and a good AEG is better, because the AEGs´ performance is more important for trigger response than the Lipo. Also a 7,4 won´t break the AEG as soon.
But to each their own, I mainly like 7,4s, if I don´t use gas, and it works well having the "weaker" lipos.
Clear as mud at midnight.
Hello All the way from DENMARK 🇩🇰
Ok, ok....this might be my issue on my g&p i5 build. The 11.1 makes things just too hot and 9.6 nihmi only works while the charge is high. This might be the solution to my heat/gremlin issue with this turd of a G&P ( honestly they have normally been the reference here in the states for decades , this Thor rapid not so much ) .
This motors work in a range from 8 to 12 volts, a fully charged 7,4 lipo is around 8,4 volt so gives the motor the bare minimum to work, the 11,1 fully charged is around 12,6 so a bit over what’s is intended
A 9,9 fully charge should be from 10 to 11 volts so just right for the job
14.8v instead then?
After watching this, I might replace my 11.1 LiPo with a 7.4 with my M4.
Had same issues with my garbage titan battery..
Why dont you go HPA??
He Can't HPA, he hates HPA. 😂
Because it has some truly crap compromises and for the most part doesn't add to the experience in a positive way.
What is that dboys gun, I can't find it anywhere? Not many toys catch my eye 👁️🗨️
re the motor getting hot with no load on it, could this be an active brake issue?
Sometimes - sometimes there's no ETU.... I've done battery to motor & no airsoft gun, just a push to make switch....
@@NegativeAirsoftTech calling it energy weird terminology, energy could mean alot of things.
generally speaking current (amps) is how many electrons are flowing, current is DRAWN by the motor etc
voltage is how hard those electrons are pushed,
think of it like water.
water pressure is voltage
flow rate is amps
the size of the pipe is resistance
smaller pipe (more resistance) means you need MORE pressure (volts) to get the same amount of water (amps) through the pipe and vice versa
If the gun only used what it needed, you would not get overspin on some builds.