As an extra point, I thought I’d throw this quote in. The context is that Mary is in remand overnight whilst the trial is taking place. She is a child scared about what her punishment will be. She even asks the officers: “do you think I’ll ever go home again”…which in a less conscious way, it’s what she wanted. In another way, that’s terrifying. Her life is back there, her siblings, her aunts and uncles and everything she loves. Speculating about what she would do if she was the judge, and an 11-year-old was standing trial, Mary says: “I’d give her…eighteen months. Murder isn’t that bad. We all die sometime anyway. My mam gives me sweets every day…” Firstly, I have seen that quote used a lot to present Mary is some ruthless, “evil” being who doesn’t think it’s bad to murder anyone. However it requires the context that a) she’s a terrified child trying to bargain with the idea of a less terrifying punishment and b) the reality and finality of death does not feel entirely clear to her…which is the significance of her adding the seemingly unrelated phrase “my mam gives me sweets every day.” Essentially saying, “my mam murdered me loads of times.” And Mary woke up, right? Mary came back. It’s not too bad… There is an eagerness with these kind of stories for the world to go “Look how awful and evil this child is!” I can understand that because the murder is chilling. It is uncomfortable to think about deeply, so you do fall back into the less muddy, quicker, easier judgements that spare you the discomfort of grappling with that darkness. I suppose that’s ultimately why I made this video. The vague hope it encourages or helps strengthen people’s general ability to reflect on these kind of things. Also, that quote is just brilliant to demonstrate how very often to seemingly unrelated thoughts, can be very much connected in a less conscious sense. My old professor always, always told us to pay attention not just to what a client says, but to the order they say things; if it links to what is said or done before or after, and then what the link might mean. Mary was expressing something very important but, naturally, the prison officer just wasn’t equipped to understand it.
I know this stuff makes you uncomfortable, but that is in part exactly what makes you the right person to make videos like these. And I think it's important for the reasons you articulate here - the hope that it encourages the ability to reflect on questions of blame, trauma, evil, punishment, rehabilitation. And exactly - to give people who aren't trained to think this way an alternative process for making meaning out of things that are easy to reduce based on how they make us feel. That feels gross so it must be gross...well, yes it IS, but can we get beneath that? And can we get beneath it in a way that helps us create a better society - on a personal and systemic level? It's so easy, in a way, to shrug off the larger responsibility by saying "psychopathology". Maybe we don't want to believe there is a way in which something so horrible MAKES SENSE. But the making sense allows us to see how to help. Maybe we don't want to do that work either. But we are the ones, as a society, who pay the price for not doing that work. So thank you for asking us to think about these things.
I think Mary is incredibly insightful and intelligent articulate for her age. In another lifetime with different family she might’ve grown up doing good things, with so much potential. This video is making me cry, I’m crying for all the children in this case including the guilty ones. It’s just tragic all over.
This is a great empathetic documentary about this little girl (at the time) and yes, you are right, I've seen 3 I believe I watched about her and all of them call her a psychopath. It is refreshing for another take on this case. Thank you. I love how you explained, not to apologize for what she did but to understand why.
I couldn't agree more with your take on how society cannot face up to the realities and effects of SA. Not to write-off the terrible act Mary Bell (and the acts of other victims of SA) but there remains a fact that the need for responsibility/culpability by a system wholly incapable of subtle thought, the victims of SA will continue to be find themselves guilty of crimes that they were the victims of themselves. I know that's a little jumbled but just thought I'd write my one comment a year.
There are so many things that society does not accept responsibility for. All the wars in the world for example, if people really knew the why, nobody would go and fight for the greed of the elites.
As much as there are so many laws and systems that need change for any of this to improve, most of them are governed by people who either don't understand or can't bear reflection on the darkness (or just don't care). I do think that the better our culture can understand and reflect, the more cultural pressure there will be to affect change...so I can only hope doing my little bit of stimulating thought with videos like this might help. Who knows? I'm glad you shared your comment for the year though
@nl-ho4wmI think his point is more about how most individuals lack the tools to emotionally recover from painful things in their life, and that giving people those tools will have a much bigger effect than pouring more pain (in the form of hate and punishment for those who do harm to others in response, or in ignoring the pain and consequences) onto it. Like, that calling someone a victim defines them by having pain done to them and nothing else, and that calling someone a villain defines them by one thing still, but that those labels don't encapsulate reality and try to force someone into a state that can't be changed. It's understandable, but it seems to me that most violence that is repeated is done so because of those people feeling stuck in one label, one emotional response to it. To use a mild example, it's like how throwing away food when you make an error during cooking, it doesn't give you a chance to learn how to adapt and be a better cook or to accept that it happened, it just puts you in a position of trying to avoid the bad thing happening again. Prisons are like berating someone for overbeating whipped cream and then not giving them the chance to learn what to do with overbeaten cream or how to identify when the cream is done and doesn't need to be beaten anymore. I hope that makes some sense and doesn't sound condescending; it was not my goal to be rude.
@nl-ho4wm Where is anyone saying people don't deserve punishment for crimes they committed or that they have the right to hurt people? Talking about whether they deserve punishment is beside the point, because of course they do. The question is how do we stop this from happening? How do we break these cycles?
I would not have clicked this video if it was done by any other person, but because it came from you I trusted from experience that you'd provide compassionate insight into this case and her psychology. It is a very difficult topic and I appreciate learning about it through your filter so it's not as taxing for us. I found it interesting how Mary re-created on the boys the trauma placed unto her when she couldn't talk about it. I remember watching a talk about Play Therapy and how often times in children it was the only way for them to express the trauma that they had been subjected to or witnessed. I believe something similar is what she was trying to do subconsciously (as well as, how you mentioned, to recreate her experience with a reversed perpetrator/victim dynamic). It's a tough subject but it is so necessary that we learn to curb harm whenever possible so future people are spared. Thank you for your work.
You're very correct about play therapy! I don't often like recommending my own videos in comments, but I did one a while back called something like "this true story will move you" and it is about exactly that, but to give you the jist of it, it's about a girl who used play therapy to act out the murder she had witnessed as a means to process it
Thank you for your empathy and for the nuance you always bring into these conversations. I especially appreciate the discussion of the (false) dichotomy of "evil" vs. "[good/innocent] victim". Things in real life - and especially human beings - are never so completely black and white. It's easy to just put someone into one of these discreet boxes. It's more comfortable for us, it makes it easier to understand, to accept it, without threatening our own sense of safety, I suppose. But it's not.. real. We should ask questions. The only way to actually make a positive change, in my opinion, is through empathy and trying to understand, with all the nuances and shades of grey. You are the perfect person to make a video about this, and I'm glad you did. Take care.
I remember the Mary bell case often being used when examining the nature vs nurture debate. For all accounts Mary Bell has been successfully rehabilitated but because of the horrific nature of the crimes she committed at such an early age many wouldn't believe that she has. Does it say more about our society that there is less condemnation of the grinding poverty and abuse that shaped Mary Bell into a murderous ten year old and more for any attempted at rehabilitation even at such an early age? Its also very easy for me to sit here an play armchair referee; I have lived through a close family member being murdered for no reason other than she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I can honestly say there is no way I could see past the rage and hurt I feel from that. But I also think about why such things keep happening on a semi-regular basis and I always come to the same conclusion: until we are ready to treat the cause of societies ills of poverty, abuse, lack of mental and social aid, and simple apathy to it all, such horrors will keep happening and more families and friends will loose loved ones.
Yeah I felt uneasy making this because there are families out there grieving because of what Mary did, ofcourse they'd feel anger. Who would I be to deny them that feeling? And yet there's a whole society of people completely removed not just from this stories but also anything similar that could relate to it...and for them to condemn without nuance? I understand why people do think like that, but culture as a whole also has to do better if we really want to tackle the problems at the heart of this. As you said poverty and abuse. People often don't like to think about them... I hope culture is generally getting better though. Not necessarily better at tackling them yet, but at least better at general people understanding them as a root cause for so many greater issues
@@mylittlethoughttree Sir Terry Pratchett wrote: "Before you can kill the monster you have to say its name." Society may not be looking to solve these issues yet but as we start to recognize the problem instead of turning a blind eye or writing it off as a foible of some kind, I think we are starting to move in that direction.
I've heard of this case before but only in a "true crime" sense of coverage, I've always loved your analysis videos on fictional characters because you always afford that understanding and grace that treats the subject with humanity despite them being fictional. I'm very interested to dive into this tragic case, because I know on this channel it won't go anywhere near voyeurism
47:14 I have dissociative identity disorder and that (ie, the lived experience) is really all i have to go on when speculating about this, but to me it sounds like Mary probably just literally doesn't remember saying she tried to cut [what she tried to cut], and maybe doesn't even remember trying to do it at all. Maybe Mary had nothing to do with that particular part of the crime, and maybe she was so shocked that she'd mentioned it because she herself cannot fathom that "she" did it at all. Alters can be incredibly phantasmal things, responsible for only brief moments in time-singular actions that are only part of a traumatic experience-and yet only that specific alter has any memory of it at all. I remember in college when I was first really, actually having to struggle with my DID because it was for the first time affecting my work and school life enough to scare me, the hell that was just trying to figure out what all went on in my classes. I would get in the car in the morning, find myself sitting at my desk just before the lecture started, have just enough time to hit "record" on a voice memo on my phone, then wake up in lab, then suddenly I'd be out to eat at a restaurant after school or even back at home during dinner. and then I'd go back and play back the memos i recorded in the school day to listen to what happened during my classes and some of it I'd remember, and other parts would be totally new to me.... once i was running a test with a piece of equipment and threw away the wasted part, my teacher asked me why i threw it away, and i literally could not answer her because the version of me that was capable of speech that day was not the same person who was doing the lab experiment or even present in the classroom. and i didn't have a diagnosis yet and genuinely had no clue what was wrong with me or why i couldn't remember what i was doing literally one second before or why. DID forms early in life as a result of trauma, so it seems plausible to me that maybe that's just the reason Mary couldn't recall saying that when she revisited the topic in a later interview. Not to say she HAS DID, but there's lots of kinds of dissociative disorders and well. maybe the version/fragment of Mary that did that and remembers doing that and told Geeta about doing that just wasn't present during the later interview.
In the 1960s, I worked as a porter/driver at Prudhoe Mental Hospital. I was told to go to Newcastle and pick up two young girls. I picked them up with the hospital mini-bus from a facility in Newcastle. The girls were both very pretty and for the whole journey, they never said a word. I was to drop them off at a home/ward at the Children's Village in the hospital. I believe it was called the Flemming ward. I was never told on that day who these children were, all I knew was they were there to be assessed. When I did find out who they were I was shocked as they appeared to be quiet and well-mannered. I wouldn't have thought one was Mary Bell and that they were capable of doing what they did.
All I could think of while listening was: politicians should read this book. Especially the ones, who are trying to restrict abortions. Not wanting to have children is reason enough, you never know what the woman's background is and if she could cope with parenting. I'm pretty sure that we'd have fewer problems as a society if women weren't forced to have children. I'm speaking from experience: my mother clearly didn't want me, of course she'll never admit it. And she never did anything horrible to me, like Mary's mother did. I just felt this hidden resentment all the time growing up. I have a chronic depression as an adult now and I don't want to continue this cycle so I chose not to have children, but everyone around has been trying to force me to since I was a teen. Including my mother. I'm scared to even think what my life might have been like if I gave up and had a baby at some point and what kind of mother would I have been. And what life would that poor child have.
I left a like and I'm going to respond here to give the youtube algorithm something to digest. I'm not used to doing that, but the way in which you approach cases makes it feel so human and genuinely understanding of people who have been deemed ununderstandable - even though their acts shouldn't be overlooked - by the majority of society interests me. I must have seen every video about Katie as well (issues of attachment affect lots of people, some things felt relatable), I've listened to it as a background while I've been busy with my hobbies. The amount of care you put in your videos doesn't go unnoticed
I feel like this comment could have easily been made by me. ❤ I will only add that I have people in my life who had gone through serious traumas and have problematic behaviours (even if not to this extent) as a result. It means a lot to hear someone talk about things with so much empathy. For a long time I have been feeling alone thinking similarly. It seems like so many people still have no clue about pscychological damage and they tend to want to see things in black and white. I also am looking forward to the next Katie video, it is my favorite series.😊
Thank you for bringing the empathy and nuance that you do to subjects like these, it's truly rare to find videos on any crime where both victim(s) and perpetrator are treated as human beings which makes hearing about such things even more disturbing.
I'm reminded of "The Bad Seed" which came out around the same time as the events you're talking about (modulo a decade or so). There, the child is depicted as some kind of aberration, having some kind of mutation that skipped a generation. The mother is shown as normal, unaware that she's carrying the trait because it hasn't expressed itself in her even if she can pass it on to children. I'm pretty sure that's not even how genetics works, much less psychology, but it might give some insight into what attitudes people had at the time.
@@mylittlethoughttree I first saw the 1956 movie and then read the book. (Apparently there was a play and a later movie as well.) Both fall heavily on the nature side of nature vs. nurture debate, to the point of being horribly unrealistic. But if you're willing to suspend disbelief on that aspect, and make some allowances for the era it was made, it works as a thriller.
She dreamt of being whisked away by some higher powers, together with Norma. She was brought back every time. She was brought back from what was done to her when there was a visitor, too. It was unescapable. But she wanted to be away, no matter how. She wanted someone to help her escape. Remember, she told her victim to do the same to her, as she did to him, in a joint action. After this, she told what she did, hoping that this would finally change her life, for good or for bad. Nothing worked. In a way, Norma ended her torture. I believe that the grinning was an attempt to show friendliness, in a very unconvincing way. My sister would turn her eyes into narrow slits and pull the corners of her mouth as far apart as she could when she was meant to be photographed. The pictures look anything but natural.
i had never heard of this case before, likely because im from the US and fairly young [late 20s]. im somewhat thankful for that; my view of mary bell hasnt been tainted by a society that sees the crime she committed first and her humanity dead last. i appreciate you giving this case an empathetic look, one that acknowledges the horror of what was done, but also sees the nuances in how this was a traumatized child who ultimately reflected the damage inflicted on her onto another weaker person. i wish peace for mary, her family, and the families of the two boys whose lives she ended. thank you for making this video.
30:40 it absolutely is culture to be in denial. When I was in elementary school a girl was assaulted by a teacher. The teacher was moved to another school (!) and the child was sent to an JUVVY facility and we were told that she broke the law. I'm 42. This was mid 80s. It didn't get better fast.
I found this video very helpful and thought provoking. I'd love to hear more. I'd love to read the book and it's gone on my mental things to read list, but Katies story is still on that to read list...
I've seen many documentaries on Mary Bell. I have seen her painted as a "bad seed" and the main brains behind the two tots' murders, making Norma look like a sidekick. The main stories I've seen used to villainize the then preteen girl was her and Norma breaking into a nursery school and vandalizing it and Mary Bell going up to one of her victims' mom and mocking her about her dead son. As well as what you mentioned, her and Norma strangling classmates and being bullies to the younger kids. It makes sense that Mary tried to ignore and forget the innocent two lives she took at just ten or eleven. We aren't our actions! Thanks for including the scenic scenery, it really helps with dealing the graphic, gory details that you are talking about in regards to Mary Bell. I think it's good to take a break from this video and true crime in general because we, well me in particularly is getting too caught up in it.
It's interesting, how people seem averse to real people vs characters. A character is fiction, harmless to dissect. Whereas videos on real people, I think, have us hold a mirror to ourselves & humanity as a whole. Whether you've lived in a safe bubble or seen the ugly of humanity, it can be hard to face it. I'd even go as far as saying many people feel averse or afraid to feel empathetic, uncertain of the implications of it. You are a truly amazing person. I am grateful for the careers you have chosen. These type of videos are not the escapism dopamine hit people seek to avoid reality, but they are important. Thank you for making time for them♡
The idea of redemption is kinda split by the case that first brought Bell to my attention. Of the two killers of Jamie Bulger - Robert Thompson seems to have moved on and Jon Venables keeps reoffending.
It’s responsibility and accountability. I know I can’t talk to them but if I could, I bet Robert took up therapy or whatever help he could get to figure out why he did this, while Jon continues to hide and pretend he’s fine.
I think it was John that kept revealing his new identities to anyone he met, the cops spent thousands making new ones for him. He was then caught with a bunch of child p*rn, spent time in jail, generally a scumbag. The other kid kept quiet, did the time in therapy and so on, and is living a normal life. It sounds like Mary has kept quiet too despite the harassment, did the therapy and time, and is becoming a better person despite her crimes and the abuse she dealt with
Both boys had to have therapy Thompson said to his therapist he wanted to see what she was writing he also laid flowers at the site of the murder venables went to red bank was sexually abused by a member of staff and had delusions he could see James and has never coped outside of prison
Every time people fall for far right “parents rights” bullshit, especially homeschool, this is all I can think about. Children having no way to tell anyone what’s happening, stuck in hell until they’re pushed into reality. It’s just… thank you for talking about this stuff.
I have family members who are all about homeschooling bc they honestly think a school can just give your kid immunizations without your consent… which is insane…. They’re very much conspiracy theorists and are all doom and gloom all the time. Everyone’s out to get them, they won’t get shots for their kid, they won’t put him in daycare or school. And I’m like oh man. My cousin was homeschooled and she’s almost 40 and just recently made friends. She has social anxiety so badly. And she blames being homeschooled for it which I agree.
❤Very humanely done Sir , l cant help but feel the same sorrow for Mary as i do Aileen Wornoss , a murdered child before their trauma response kicks in
This was so well done...good job. I do agree with you on the issue of all good/all bad when it comes to true crime. I mod for a channel who does true crime and ....sometimes I become very frustrated with how people want to view everything as all good or as all bad. I'll be honest, I think people are this way because so many people cannot handle the truth of what the reality is. People don't want to accept that this stuff happens so they have all kinds of defenses. I think it's easier for them to become angry and argue on either side...as long as they are angry because that displaces the pure despondency they would feel otherwise. They bring their own "stuff" to the table and don't recognize it. And it's not just limited to people on YT...it's people everywhere. How can we ever do better or help others when there's this massive hurt?
Well said, and you are correct. Splitting into black and white categories is a very common defence against stress and overwhelming feelings. I like to hope videos like this can safely encourage people to manage a little more of the nuance without it becoming overwhelmed, but who knows? It'd be impossible to measure
Loved Gitta Sereny’s “Into that Darkness”, an account of interviews with Sobibor commandant Franz Stangle, as well as other perpetrators and victims of the Holocaust. She was a really talented journalist and went tough on her subjects when she felt it necessary.
By the 33: minute mark I was having trouble continuing I tried to force myself but only managed another minute. Can you just tell me what happened to her in the end?
@@GhostEmblemsorry for maybe being to harsh (too much internet for today 🙈). I get that it can be hard to listen to something like this. But I think it's hard to summarize 40 minutes of his analysis in a few words. So maybe a summary from another source would be better if you just want the facts and not so much the psychology that lies beneath it.
Ok, well there's only one key, uncomfortable point to outline in this paragraph. Roughly, I'd say all you need to know about the SA is that Mary was often choked to the point of losing consciousness. She was comforted as this happens, told it was ok, nothing was wrong, she wouldn't die. This, plus the fact children already struggle with the finality of death, and see it sort of like a temporary thing people will wake up/come back from; that all sheds an important light on why she strangled the children she did. For the world to brand it some unthinkable evil is a failure to understand and an eagerness to project away the darkness. Beyond, the video loosely discusses how, despite it not being a work of pure evil, we shouldn't excuse away her actions either. The fact is she still did it, she has feelings about it she therefore needs to come to terms with, and excusing or denying would only make it harder to do so. She needs to feel the guilt for her own sake, as much as anyone else's...and yet the reality of what she did is so horrifying that she blocks it. Her memory reworks itself, hides the truth and the pain from her. The book is very much her struggle to face up to it. And ultimately, she does do that. It is evident throughout the interviews, just how carpal of reflection and empathy she is. Her life through a supportive special unit, and then a troubling time in prison, before her eventual release and life with an incredibly supportive partner, has all been part of this slow journey... although each still had flaws, and prison was most definitely a damaging experience. There are so many important criticisms the book outlines about the prison system. And yet, despite everything, she has raised a healthy, happy daughter. Mary is now a grandmother in reality, living under a false identity. Her life is still guarded by regulations and a probation officer. She has bouts of depression caused by guilt, among other things, and very much needs her husband's support...but she seems to ve doing wonderfully on the evidence of the book. And if this is how a child can do growing up in the 60s and 70s, I have hope to imagine how much better children could be helped now. COULD. There are many other cases that outline the failings of our systems, and there are so many factors involved but it is still a story of hope
Incredibly, Incredibly sad story. I remember first hearing about it at a friend's house from a true crime documentary on TV in my early 20s. I think the reason we tend to polarize into different camps on these things "she's was a devil child" "she's pure evil!" Or "she was only a child, a victim, she didn't know any better" is because perhaps psychological we have a hard time understanding that many things can be true all at once that contradict. I don't think she was pure evil, but I do think she was a very deeply troubled child that committed murder. I also think she was a victim that suffered horrifying abuse. Both of those things are equally accurate. I think when people commit violent crimes, we try to mentally stripe away as much of their humanity as possible. Either for narrative and/ or salacious purposes I couldn't say. Perhaps on some level it is too psychologically upsetting to think a person that has done something like this is one of us, and so removing them and placing them as far away from ordinary society in description is a way to cope with that reality. I appreciate the important note that the victims were and are more than their final, however harrowing moments. They had families, friends and neighbors that loved them and still mourn them. That is another thing that I think some speakers in true crime tend to miss. Having a full appreciation of the humanity in the victims. We sometimes romanticize the violence and perpetrators in such a way that we often forget that. People are more than just the worst thing that ever happened to them. They're more than a number, they're more than a tally. I feel remorse for Mary. I hope she is still going to counseling and able to heal from the absolute batshit early life she had. I feel remorse for everyone involved (perhaps besides Betty). Whenever I hear stories like this about kids that were absolutely screaming for help but did not get it until it was too late.. the phrase that comes to mind is always "what a waste". Mary was and presumably still is an intelligent person. I hope wherever she is, she has been able to have better days with her partner, daughter, grandchild etc. So much of this could have absolutely been avoided and yet somehow wasn't. We need to do better, and do more to prevent this as a society.
I wonder where and why Norma get off so easily compared to Mary. She's usually portrayed as Mary's "stupid, gullible sidekick". I guess, it's easier to be painted as an idiot than the Spawn of Satan.
I think sometimes for kids, it's difficult to distinguish between "good" excitement and "bad" excitement. And I don't want to say that this applies to Mary's situation, your video is the extent of my knowledge of her case. It's just something I thought about while watching. When a child does something that seems "evil", they see the reactions of the adults around them. Maybe that reinforces something for them. Maybe they come to understand how upset everyone is and that makes them feel bad, even if they don't know why it's bad. Maybe all they see is that something "interesting" happened that they are at the center of, and their brains are too young to understand that's it's not a good "interesting". Maybe they want more reactions. But I think that all the excitement and interest around what happened may work as a positive reinforcement on a very young, developing mind. Anyway, just a thought. I'm not a psychologist lol
IMHO, if you can get deep enough into anyone’s head you will find a causality for their behavior. I’m not advocating that as an excuse, only a point of understanding. Which is vital for both repentance and forgiveness. Isn’t that the end goal?
I don't know if you mean I said that or someone else did in the video. I hope I didn't say that. Historically people have drawn connections between the two but it's definitely not as simple as that and not something anyone should be making diagnoses on the basis of
The relationshipBetty and Mary had was chilling to me. I agree there must have been trauma beyond in the past in this family. I'm so glad that in your videos you give these cases such a compassionate but also holistic and realtistic approach because we all need more nuance and real understanding of psychology and not just random diagnostics being thrown around to categorise or shame people on the internet. I do have a question about countertransference, in that respect. You mentionened the staff could have looked at their feelings of guilt more closely to understand Mary better. Could you decribe more in detail what you think they could have done with their own emotional response towards Mary?
Really hard question to answer because I can't gauge exactly what the feeling is or what it might mean. I could take guesses, but ultimately the wishy-washy answer is just "the staff would have to reflect on, and to help Mary consider, what those dynamics might mean." You'd probably have to find a safe and non-shaming way to point out this "needy" feeling, so that Mary herself can start to recognise it. The book gives a few examples of how she would bombard staff with questions. Like if one of them spent a day away at the park, she would keep on asking for more and more details of everything about the park. That might be one possible space to playfully point out something like: "Oh Mary, there's so many questions you need answering, and I can never seem to give you everything you need! " something as simple as that. Nothing too far, nothing that tries to interpret everything. Just something to address it and see how she responds, then judge where to go from that. I personally might wonder about the guilt her mother constantly made Mary feel, and how that might tie into the staff's feeling of guilt, or potentially her guilt about the killings that she can never quite make up for, it never feels like anything will be enough, or the way the staff can very much see her like an innocent child that they're eager to protect from a reality she is already plagued with, and what guilt might mean there...but all of those speculations could be completely wrong, you'd just have to work with her to figure these things out
It's probably best to exclude Norma and Mary's classmates and families views on what these two girls did to those poor tots. Kids tend to label other kids, especially their bullies as bad and undeserving of forgiveness. I can only imagine Mary and Norma's siblings being bullied because of what they did and the media fiasco didn't really help them. Betty seemed more than willing to sell her daughter but not have anything to do with her. I wonder if Betty viewed her other children, especially her son, Mary's brother as going to end up like his sister. If Betty didn't really love Mary, why didn't she let that woman at the adoption center adopt her. Betty just seems like she was stuck being a mom when she didn't want to be and the guys that got her pregnant just got to go on their merry way and get other women pregnant and live their lives.
Sorry, this comment is not about this podcast. I am really curious about your perspective on the cultural war regarding trans people. As a trans person I am struggling , constantly asking questions like, am I just mentally ill? I know there's lots of movies out there about gender non-conforming people that you could potentially talk about. It seems like a pertinent question at this time.
As a gender non conforming person, I am mentally ill. I think narcissism plays a part in some people's gender issues, it does in mine and after I noticed it in me I noticed it in more of my trans and crossdresser friends. I don't even think that's a negative, its just something that is
It'd certainly be an interesting video to make! To answer briefly now, I know it isn't something you can give a definitive yes or no to. But if it's who you are, it's who you are, right? I don't think it's something to feel shame over or like it's a "wrong" thing to fix. There might be some sort of deeper or unconscious feelings that have been a factor in becoming trans, but that doesn't mean it's bad to feel the way you do. Experiences do play a hand in shaping us, sometimes even bad experiences, but that doesn't mean the way they shape us is always "bad" it just means "this is who I am right now and this is how I feel. That's ok." I don't want to dismiss your situation when I know nothing about it, because the questions your asking yourself will be important, and I think the doubt and worry are always natural and they are difficult feelings to process, but I'd suggest it's better to focus on the "why do I struggle to accept the way I feel?" rather than "why do I feel this way to begin with?" If, IF you are trans as a result of mental health struggles, does that fact actually change anything? (I don't know the answer). Mental health issues and transgender often do go hand in hand, but not necessarily because of being transgender itself. Sometimes because of the way our culture makes people feel about being transgender, treats it with disgust etc, or sometimes because it is still a massive change, or I know someone who went through a little bit of a grieving process about losing who she used to be, even though the change felt right. We feel how we feel but that doesn't exactly mean those feelings are wrong, just that they're there
I think you might misunderstood, if you feel I'm a) excusing Mary's actions or b) blaming her parents for everything. It's just not as simple as that. My entire point is that Mary needs to face up to what she's done but also that we as a society can't just write people like this off as "monsters" the longer we keep doing that, the less these kind of situations will be prevented
In the 1960s, I worked as a porter/driver at Prudhoe Mental Hospital. I was told to go to Newcastle and pick up two young girls. I picked them up with the hospital mini-bus from a facility in Newcastle. The girls were both very pretty and for the whole journey, they never said a word. I was to drop them off at a home/ward at the Children's Village in the hospital. I believe it was called the Flemming ward. I was never told on that day who these children were, all I knew was they were there to be assessed. When I did find out who they were I was shocked as they appeared to be quiet and well-mannered. I wouldn't have thought they were capable of doing what they did.
As an extra point, I thought I’d throw this quote in. The context is that Mary is in remand overnight whilst the trial is taking place. She is a child scared about what her punishment will be. She even asks the officers: “do you think I’ll ever go home again”…which in a less conscious way, it’s what she wanted. In another way, that’s terrifying. Her life is back there, her siblings, her aunts and uncles and everything she loves. Speculating about what she would do if she was the judge, and an 11-year-old was standing trial, Mary says:
“I’d give her…eighteen months. Murder isn’t that bad. We all die sometime anyway. My mam gives me sweets every day…”
Firstly, I have seen that quote used a lot to present Mary is some ruthless, “evil” being who doesn’t think it’s bad to murder anyone. However it requires the context that a) she’s a terrified child trying to bargain with the idea of a less terrifying punishment and b) the reality and finality of death does not feel entirely clear to her…which is the significance of her adding the seemingly unrelated phrase “my mam gives me sweets every day.” Essentially saying, “my mam murdered me loads of times.” And Mary woke up, right? Mary came back. It’s not too bad…
There is an eagerness with these kind of stories for the world to go “Look how awful and evil this child is!” I can understand that because the murder is chilling. It is uncomfortable to think about deeply, so you do fall back into the less muddy, quicker, easier judgements that spare you the discomfort of grappling with that darkness. I suppose that’s ultimately why I made this video. The vague hope it encourages or helps strengthen people’s general ability to reflect on these kind of things.
Also, that quote is just brilliant to demonstrate how very often to seemingly unrelated thoughts, can be very much connected in a less conscious sense. My old professor always, always told us to pay attention not just to what a client says, but to the order they say things; if it links to what is said or done before or after, and then what the link might mean. Mary was expressing something very important but, naturally, the prison officer just wasn’t equipped to understand it.
I know this stuff makes you uncomfortable, but that is in part exactly what makes you the right person to make videos like these. And I think it's important for the reasons you articulate here - the hope that it encourages the ability to reflect on questions of blame, trauma, evil, punishment, rehabilitation. And exactly - to give people who aren't trained to think this way an alternative process for making meaning out of things that are easy to reduce based on how they make us feel. That feels gross so it must be gross...well, yes it IS, but can we get beneath that? And can we get beneath it in a way that helps us create a better society - on a personal and systemic level? It's so easy, in a way, to shrug off the larger responsibility by saying "psychopathology". Maybe we don't want to believe there is a way in which something so horrible MAKES SENSE. But the making sense allows us to see how to help. Maybe we don't want to do that work either. But we are the ones, as a society, who pay the price for not doing that work. So thank you for asking us to think about these things.
@@randieshanesingsBeautifully said, I couldn't have expressed it better.
I always think of that note "I murder so that I may come back" ..
There's something very very deep she is expressing here.
I think Mary is incredibly insightful and intelligent articulate for her age. In another lifetime with different family she might’ve grown up doing good things, with so much potential. This video is making me cry, I’m crying for all the children in this case including the guilty ones. It’s just tragic all over.
I feel exactly the same
This is a great empathetic documentary about this little girl (at the time) and yes, you are right, I've seen 3 I believe I watched about her and all of them call her a psychopath. It is refreshing for another take on this case. Thank you. I love how you explained, not to apologize for what she did but to understand why.
I couldn't agree more with your take on how society cannot face up to the realities and effects of SA. Not to write-off the terrible act Mary Bell (and the acts of other victims of SA) but there remains a fact that the need for responsibility/culpability by a system wholly incapable of subtle thought, the victims of SA will continue to be find themselves guilty of crimes that they were the victims of themselves. I know that's a little jumbled but just thought I'd write my one comment a year.
There are so many things that society does not accept responsibility for.
All the wars in the world for example, if people really knew the why, nobody would go and fight for the greed of the elites.
As much as there are so many laws and systems that need change for any of this to improve, most of them are governed by people who either don't understand or can't bear reflection on the darkness (or just don't care). I do think that the better our culture can understand and reflect, the more cultural pressure there will be to affect change...so I can only hope doing my little bit of stimulating thought with videos like this might help. Who knows? I'm glad you shared your comment for the year though
@nl-ho4wmI think his point is more about how most individuals lack the tools to emotionally recover from painful things in their life, and that giving people those tools will have a much bigger effect than pouring more pain (in the form of hate and punishment for those who do harm to others in response, or in ignoring the pain and consequences) onto it. Like, that calling someone a victim defines them by having pain done to them and nothing else, and that calling someone a villain defines them by one thing still, but that those labels don't encapsulate reality and try to force someone into a state that can't be changed. It's understandable, but it seems to me that most violence that is repeated is done so because of those people feeling stuck in one label, one emotional response to it. To use a mild example, it's like how throwing away food when you make an error during cooking, it doesn't give you a chance to learn how to adapt and be a better cook or to accept that it happened, it just puts you in a position of trying to avoid the bad thing happening again. Prisons are like berating someone for overbeating whipped cream and then not giving them the chance to learn what to do with overbeaten cream or how to identify when the cream is done and doesn't need to be beaten anymore. I hope that makes some sense and doesn't sound condescending; it was not my goal to be rude.
@nl-ho4wm Where is anyone saying people don't deserve punishment for crimes they committed or that they have the right to hurt people? Talking about whether they deserve punishment is beside the point, because of course they do. The question is how do we stop this from happening? How do we break these cycles?
I would not have clicked this video if it was done by any other person, but because it came from you I trusted from experience that you'd provide compassionate insight into this case and her psychology. It is a very difficult topic and I appreciate learning about it through your filter so it's not as taxing for us.
I found it interesting how Mary re-created on the boys the trauma placed unto her when she couldn't talk about it. I remember watching a talk about Play Therapy and how often times in children it was the only way for them to express the trauma that they had been subjected to or witnessed. I believe something similar is what she was trying to do subconsciously (as well as, how you mentioned, to recreate her experience with a reversed perpetrator/victim dynamic).
It's a tough subject but it is so necessary that we learn to curb harm whenever possible so future people are spared. Thank you for your work.
You're very correct about play therapy! I don't often like recommending my own videos in comments, but I did one a while back called something like "this true story will move you" and it is about exactly that, but to give you the jist of it, it's about a girl who used play therapy to act out the murder she had witnessed as a means to process it
Thank you for your empathy and for the nuance you always bring into these conversations. I especially appreciate the discussion of the (false) dichotomy of "evil" vs. "[good/innocent] victim". Things in real life - and especially human beings - are never so completely black and white. It's easy to just put someone into one of these discreet boxes. It's more comfortable for us, it makes it easier to understand, to accept it, without threatening our own sense of safety, I suppose. But it's not.. real. We should ask questions. The only way to actually make a positive change, in my opinion, is through empathy and trying to understand, with all the nuances and shades of grey.
You are the perfect person to make a video about this, and I'm glad you did.
Take care.
I remember the Mary bell case often being used when examining the nature vs nurture debate. For all accounts Mary Bell has been successfully rehabilitated but because of the horrific nature of the crimes she committed at such an early age many wouldn't believe that she has. Does it say more about our society that there is less condemnation of the grinding poverty and abuse that shaped Mary Bell into a murderous ten year old and more for any attempted at rehabilitation even at such an early age? Its also very easy for me to sit here an play armchair referee; I have lived through a close family member being murdered for no reason other than she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I can honestly say there is no way I could see past the rage and hurt I feel from that. But I also think about why such things keep happening on a semi-regular basis and I always come to the same conclusion: until we are ready to treat the cause of societies ills of poverty, abuse, lack of mental and social aid, and simple apathy to it all, such horrors will keep happening and more families and friends will loose loved ones.
Yeah I felt uneasy making this because there are families out there grieving because of what Mary did, ofcourse they'd feel anger. Who would I be to deny them that feeling? And yet there's a whole society of people completely removed not just from this stories but also anything similar that could relate to it...and for them to condemn without nuance? I understand why people do think like that, but culture as a whole also has to do better if we really want to tackle the problems at the heart of this. As you said poverty and abuse. People often don't like to think about them... I hope culture is generally getting better though. Not necessarily better at tackling them yet, but at least better at general people understanding them as a root cause for so many greater issues
@@mylittlethoughttree Sir Terry Pratchett wrote: "Before you can kill the monster you have to say its name." Society may not be looking to solve these issues yet but as we start to recognize the problem instead of turning a blind eye or writing it off as a foible of some kind, I think we are starting to move in that direction.
I've heard of this case before but only in a "true crime" sense of coverage, I've always loved your analysis videos on fictional characters because you always afford that understanding and grace that treats the subject with humanity despite them being fictional. I'm very interested to dive into this tragic case, because I know on this channel it won't go anywhere near voyeurism
47:14 I have dissociative identity disorder and that (ie, the lived experience) is really all i have to go on when speculating about this, but to me it sounds like Mary probably just literally doesn't remember saying she tried to cut [what she tried to cut], and maybe doesn't even remember trying to do it at all. Maybe Mary had nothing to do with that particular part of the crime, and maybe she was so shocked that she'd mentioned it because she herself cannot fathom that "she" did it at all. Alters can be incredibly phantasmal things, responsible for only brief moments in time-singular actions that are only part of a traumatic experience-and yet only that specific alter has any memory of it at all.
I remember in college when I was first really, actually having to struggle with my DID because it was for the first time affecting my work and school life enough to scare me, the hell that was just trying to figure out what all went on in my classes. I would get in the car in the morning, find myself sitting at my desk just before the lecture started, have just enough time to hit "record" on a voice memo on my phone, then wake up in lab, then suddenly I'd be out to eat at a restaurant after school or even back at home during dinner. and then I'd go back and play back the memos i recorded in the school day to listen to what happened during my classes and some of it I'd remember, and other parts would be totally new to me.... once i was running a test with a piece of equipment and threw away the wasted part, my teacher asked me why i threw it away, and i literally could not answer her because the version of me that was capable of speech that day was not the same person who was doing the lab experiment or even present in the classroom. and i didn't have a diagnosis yet and genuinely had no clue what was wrong with me or why i couldn't remember what i was doing literally one second before or why.
DID forms early in life as a result of trauma, so it seems plausible to me that maybe that's just the reason Mary couldn't recall saying that when she revisited the topic in a later interview. Not to say she HAS DID, but there's lots of kinds of dissociative disorders and well. maybe the version/fragment of Mary that did that and remembers doing that and told Geeta about doing that just wasn't present during the later interview.
In the 1960s, I worked as a porter/driver at Prudhoe Mental Hospital. I was told to go to Newcastle and pick up two young girls. I picked them up with the hospital mini-bus from a facility in Newcastle. The girls were both very pretty and for the whole journey, they never said a word. I was to drop them off at a home/ward at the Children's Village in the hospital. I believe it was called the Flemming ward. I was never told on that day who these children were, all I knew was they were there to be assessed. When I did find out who they were I was shocked as they appeared to be quiet and well-mannered. I wouldn't have thought one was Mary Bell and that they were capable of doing what they did.
All I could think of while listening was: politicians should read this book. Especially the ones, who are trying to restrict abortions. Not wanting to have children is reason enough, you never know what the woman's background is and if she could cope with parenting. I'm pretty sure that we'd have fewer problems as a society if women weren't forced to have children. I'm speaking from experience: my mother clearly didn't want me, of course she'll never admit it. And she never did anything horrible to me, like Mary's mother did. I just felt this hidden resentment all the time growing up. I have a chronic depression as an adult now and I don't want to continue this cycle so I chose not to have children, but everyone around has been trying to force me to since I was a teen. Including my mother. I'm scared to even think what my life might have been like if I gave up and had a baby at some point and what kind of mother would I have been. And what life would that poor child have.
I left a like and I'm going to respond here to give the youtube algorithm something to digest. I'm not used to doing that, but the way in which you approach cases makes it feel so human and genuinely understanding of people who have been deemed ununderstandable - even though their acts shouldn't be overlooked - by the majority of society interests me. I must have seen every video about Katie as well (issues of attachment affect lots of people, some things felt relatable), I've listened to it as a background while I've been busy with my hobbies. The amount of care you put in your videos doesn't go unnoticed
I'm glad you did comment, thank you ☺️
Also I plan to make the next katie video soon
I feel like this comment could have easily been made by me. ❤
I will only add that I have people in my life who had gone through serious traumas and have problematic behaviours (even if not to this extent) as a result. It means a lot to hear someone talk about things with so much empathy. For a long time I have been feeling alone thinking similarly. It seems like so many people still have no clue about pscychological damage and they tend to want to see things in black and white.
I also am looking forward to the next Katie video, it is my favorite series.😊
Thank you for bringing the empathy and nuance that you do to subjects like these, it's truly rare to find videos on any crime where both victim(s) and perpetrator are treated as human beings which makes hearing about such things even more disturbing.
"I don't know if they know much beyond the Wikipedia page" absolutely savage 🤣🤣🤣
I'm reminded of "The Bad Seed" which came out around the same time as the events you're talking about (modulo a decade or so). There, the child is depicted as some kind of aberration, having some kind of mutation that skipped a generation. The mother is shown as normal, unaware that she's carrying the trait because it hasn't expressed itself in her even if she can pass it on to children. I'm pretty sure that's not even how genetics works, much less psychology, but it might give some insight into what attitudes people had at the time.
The bad seed is like the origin of the creepy, evil child in pop culture
I have not heard of that book...sounds damaging
@@mylittlethoughttree I first saw the 1956 movie and then read the book. (Apparently there was a play and a later movie as well.) Both fall heavily on the nature side of nature vs. nurture debate, to the point of being horribly unrealistic. But if you're willing to suspend disbelief on that aspect, and make some allowances for the era it was made, it works as a thriller.
She dreamt of being whisked away by some higher powers, together with Norma. She was brought back every time. She was brought back from what was done to her when there was a visitor, too. It was unescapable. But she wanted to be away, no matter how. She wanted someone to help her escape. Remember, she told her victim to do the same to her, as she did to him, in a joint action. After this, she told what she did, hoping that this would finally change her life, for good or for bad. Nothing worked.
In a way, Norma ended her torture.
I believe that the grinning was an attempt to show friendliness, in a very unconvincing way. My sister would turn her eyes into narrow slits and pull the corners of her mouth as far apart as she could when she was meant to be photographed. The pictures look anything but natural.
i had never heard of this case before, likely because im from the US and fairly young [late 20s]. im somewhat thankful for that; my view of mary bell hasnt been tainted by a society that sees the crime she committed first and her humanity dead last. i appreciate you giving this case an empathetic look, one that acknowledges the horror of what was done, but also sees the nuances in how this was a traumatized child who ultimately reflected the damage inflicted on her onto another weaker person.
i wish peace for mary, her family, and the families of the two boys whose lives she ended. thank you for making this video.
30:40 it absolutely is culture to be in denial. When I was in elementary school a girl was assaulted by a teacher. The teacher was moved to another school (!) and the child was sent to an JUVVY facility and we were told that she broke the law. I'm 42. This was mid 80s. It didn't get better fast.
Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me 😔
I found this video very helpful and thought provoking. I'd love to hear more. I'd love to read the book and it's gone on my mental things to read list, but Katies story is still on that to read list...
I've seen many documentaries on Mary Bell. I have seen her painted as a "bad seed" and the main brains behind the two tots' murders, making Norma look like a sidekick. The main stories I've seen used to villainize the then preteen girl was her and Norma breaking into a nursery school and vandalizing it and Mary Bell going up to one of her victims' mom and mocking her about her dead son. As well as what you mentioned, her and Norma strangling classmates and being bullies to the younger kids.
It makes sense that Mary tried to ignore and forget the innocent two lives she took at just ten or eleven. We aren't our actions!
Thanks for including the scenic scenery, it really helps with dealing the graphic, gory details that you are talking about in regards to Mary Bell.
I think it's good to take a break from this video and true crime in general because we, well me in particularly is getting too caught up in it.
Fantastic video of a really interesting case, it’s a nice change of pace from your fictional character breakdowns. Thank you 🙏❤️
i would definitely love another video on this topic if you feel like making one
I would love for you to do a followup on this! Please please please
Wow, this video really humanizes Mary. Well done.
This is a really beautiful video, it feels very compassionate
I remember reading a book about this case when I was in my early 20s so I’m interested to see your take.
It's interesting, how people seem averse to real people vs characters. A character is fiction, harmless to dissect. Whereas videos on real people, I think, have us hold a mirror to ourselves & humanity as a whole. Whether you've lived in a safe bubble or seen the ugly of humanity, it can be hard to face it. I'd even go as far as saying many people feel averse or afraid to feel empathetic, uncertain of the implications of it.
You are a truly amazing person. I am grateful for the careers you have chosen. These type of videos are not the escapism dopamine hit people seek to avoid reality, but they are important. Thank you for making time for them♡
The idea of redemption is kinda split by the case that first brought Bell to my attention. Of the two killers of Jamie Bulger - Robert Thompson seems to have moved on and Jon Venables keeps reoffending.
Indeed
It’s responsibility and accountability. I know I can’t talk to them but if I could, I bet Robert took up therapy or whatever help he could get to figure out why he did this, while Jon continues to hide and pretend he’s fine.
I think it was John that kept revealing his new identities to anyone he met, the cops spent thousands making new ones for him. He was then caught with a bunch of child p*rn, spent time in jail, generally a scumbag.
The other kid kept quiet, did the time in therapy and so on, and is living a normal life.
It sounds like Mary has kept quiet too despite the harassment, did the therapy and time, and is becoming a better person despite her crimes and the abuse she dealt with
Both boys had to have therapy Thompson said to his therapist he wanted to see what she was writing he also laid flowers at the site of the murder venables went to red bank was sexually abused by a member of staff and had delusions he could see James and has never coped outside of prison
Every time people fall for far right “parents rights” bullshit, especially homeschool, this is all I can think about. Children having no way to tell anyone what’s happening, stuck in hell until they’re pushed into reality. It’s just… thank you for talking about this stuff.
I have family members who are all about homeschooling bc they honestly think a school can just give your kid immunizations without your consent… which is insane…. They’re very much conspiracy theorists and are all doom and gloom all the time. Everyone’s out to get them, they won’t get shots for their kid, they won’t put him in daycare or school. And I’m like oh man. My cousin was homeschooled and she’s almost 40 and just recently made friends. She has social anxiety so badly. And she blames being homeschooled for it which I agree.
❤Very humanely done Sir , l cant help but feel the same sorrow for Mary as i do Aileen Wornoss , a murdered child before their trauma response kicks in
This was so well done...good job. I do agree with you on the issue of all good/all bad when it comes to true crime. I mod for a channel who does true crime and ....sometimes I become very frustrated with how people want to view everything as all good or as all bad. I'll be honest, I think people are this way because so many people cannot handle the truth of what the reality is. People don't want to accept that this stuff happens so they have all kinds of defenses. I think it's easier for them to become angry and argue on either side...as long as they are angry because that displaces the pure despondency they would feel otherwise. They bring their own "stuff" to the table and don't recognize it. And it's not just limited to people on YT...it's people everywhere. How can we ever do better or help others when there's this massive hurt?
Well said, and you are correct. Splitting into black and white categories is a very common defence against stress and overwhelming feelings. I like to hope videos like this can safely encourage people to manage a little more of the nuance without it becoming overwhelmed, but who knows? It'd be impossible to measure
@@mylittlethoughttree I think you accomplished that. Job well done.
This was another great video. You handled this topic very sensitively.
Brilliant video. What a tragic and disturbing story for all involved.
Mary's mother did horrific things to her. My thoughts about her are complicated. I think she had the capacity and the abuse solidified it.
Everyone is capable of killing, in fact most killers are neurotypical.
Loved Gitta Sereny’s “Into that Darkness”, an account of interviews with Sobibor commandant Franz Stangle, as well as other perpetrators and victims of the Holocaust. She was a really talented journalist and went tough on her subjects when she felt it necessary.
By the 33: minute mark I was having trouble continuing I tried to force myself but only managed another minute. Can you just tell me what happened to her in the end?
you could just google what happened if you don't want to watch the video
@@resathe6760I guess I just wasn't thinking properly.
@@GhostEmblemsorry for maybe being to harsh (too much internet for today 🙈). I get that it can be hard to listen to something like this. But I think it's hard to summarize 40 minutes of his analysis in a few words. So maybe a summary from another source would be better if you just want the facts and not so much the psychology that lies beneath it.
Ok, well there's only one key, uncomfortable point to outline in this paragraph. Roughly, I'd say all you need to know about the SA is that Mary was often choked to the point of losing consciousness. She was comforted as this happens, told it was ok, nothing was wrong, she wouldn't die. This, plus the fact children already struggle with the finality of death, and see it sort of like a temporary thing people will wake up/come back from; that all sheds an important light on why she strangled the children she did. For the world to brand it some unthinkable evil is a failure to understand and an eagerness to project away the darkness.
Beyond, the video loosely discusses how, despite it not being a work of pure evil, we shouldn't excuse away her actions either. The fact is she still did it, she has feelings about it she therefore needs to come to terms with, and excusing or denying would only make it harder to do so. She needs to feel the guilt for her own sake, as much as anyone else's...and yet the reality of what she did is so horrifying that she blocks it. Her memory reworks itself, hides the truth and the pain from her. The book is very much her struggle to face up to it.
And ultimately, she does do that. It is evident throughout the interviews, just how carpal of reflection and empathy she is. Her life through a supportive special unit, and then a troubling time in prison, before her eventual release and life with an incredibly supportive partner, has all been part of this slow journey... although each still had flaws, and prison was most definitely a damaging experience. There are so many important criticisms the book outlines about the prison system. And yet, despite everything, she has raised a healthy, happy daughter. Mary is now a grandmother in reality, living under a false identity. Her life is still guarded by regulations and a probation officer. She has bouts of depression caused by guilt, among other things, and very much needs her husband's support...but she seems to ve doing wonderfully on the evidence of the book. And if this is how a child can do growing up in the 60s and 70s, I have hope to imagine how much better children could be helped now. COULD. There are many other cases that outline the failings of our systems, and there are so many factors involved but it is still a story of hope
Oh, this poor psychopath. What about the kids she murdered who never got to marry and have kids.@@mylittlethoughttree
Incredibly, Incredibly sad story. I remember first hearing about it at a friend's house from a true crime documentary on TV in my early 20s.
I think the reason we tend to polarize into different camps on these things "she's was a devil child" "she's pure evil!" Or "she was only a child, a victim, she didn't know any better" is because perhaps psychological we have a hard time understanding that many things can be true all at once that contradict. I don't think she was pure evil, but I do think she was a very deeply troubled child that committed murder. I also think she was a victim that suffered horrifying abuse. Both of those things are equally accurate. I think when people commit violent crimes, we try to mentally stripe away as much of their humanity as possible. Either for narrative and/ or salacious purposes I couldn't say. Perhaps on some level it is too psychologically upsetting to think a person that has done something like this is one of us, and so removing them and placing them as far away from ordinary society in description is a way to cope with that reality.
I appreciate the important note that the victims were and are more than their final, however harrowing moments. They had families, friends and neighbors that loved them and still mourn them. That is another thing that I think some speakers in true crime tend to miss. Having a full appreciation of the humanity in the victims. We sometimes romanticize the violence and perpetrators in such a way that we often forget that. People are more than just the worst thing that ever happened to them. They're more than a number, they're more than a tally.
I feel remorse for Mary. I hope she is still going to counseling and able to heal from the absolute batshit early life she had. I feel remorse for everyone involved (perhaps besides Betty). Whenever I hear stories like this about kids that were absolutely screaming for help but did not get it until it was too late.. the phrase that comes to mind is always "what a waste". Mary was and presumably still is an intelligent person. I hope wherever she is, she has been able to have better days with her partner, daughter, grandchild etc. So much of this could have absolutely been avoided and yet somehow wasn't. We need to do better, and do more to prevent this as a society.
I wonder where and why Norma get off so easily compared to Mary. She's usually portrayed as Mary's "stupid, gullible sidekick". I guess, it's easier to be painted as an idiot than the Spawn of Satan.
I think sometimes for kids, it's difficult to distinguish between "good" excitement and "bad" excitement. And I don't want to say that this applies to Mary's situation, your video is the extent of my knowledge of her case. It's just something I thought about while watching.
When a child does something that seems "evil", they see the reactions of the adults around them. Maybe that reinforces something for them. Maybe they come to understand how upset everyone is and that makes them feel bad, even if they don't know why it's bad. Maybe all they see is that something "interesting" happened that they are at the center of, and their brains are too young to understand that's it's not a good "interesting". Maybe they want more reactions. But I think that all the excitement and interest around what happened may work as a positive reinforcement on a very young, developing mind.
Anyway, just a thought. I'm not a psychologist lol
If we believe in redemption, maybe the former perpetrators can too.
You can find redemption but not in or from other people
Oh wow, thanks for the support, that's really kind of you!
@@mylittlethoughttree 🙏🏻
a sad story
IMHO, if you can get deep enough into anyone’s head you will find a causality for their behavior. I’m not advocating that as an excuse, only a point of understanding. Which is vital for both repentance and forgiveness. Isn’t that the end goal?
How do you stop being punished?
Did he say that children who have been bed wetters are prone to psychopathy?? That is a VERY general statement.
I don't know if you mean I said that or someone else did in the video. I hope I didn't say that. Historically people have drawn connections between the two but it's definitely not as simple as that and not something anyone should be making diagnoses on the basis of
This kind of video would be fine if you said I don’t know more
If there was less conjecture and a better indication of how concrete this is or that is
I believe redemption is possible!
The relationshipBetty and Mary had was chilling to me. I agree there must have been trauma beyond in the past in this family.
I'm so glad that in your videos you give these cases such a compassionate but also holistic and realtistic approach because we all need more nuance and real understanding of psychology and not just random diagnostics being thrown around to categorise or shame people on the internet.
I do have a question about countertransference, in that respect. You mentionened the staff could have looked at their feelings of guilt more closely to understand Mary better.
Could you decribe more in detail what you think they could have done with their own emotional response towards Mary?
Really hard question to answer because I can't gauge exactly what the feeling is or what it might mean. I could take guesses, but ultimately the wishy-washy answer is just "the staff would have to reflect on, and to help Mary consider, what those dynamics might mean." You'd probably have to find a safe and non-shaming way to point out this "needy" feeling, so that Mary herself can start to recognise it. The book gives a few examples of how she would bombard staff with questions. Like if one of them spent a day away at the park, she would keep on asking for more and more details of everything about the park. That might be one possible space to playfully point out something like: "Oh Mary, there's so many questions you need answering, and I can never seem to give you everything you need! " something as simple as that. Nothing too far, nothing that tries to interpret everything. Just something to address it and see how she responds, then judge where to go from that. I personally might wonder about the guilt her mother constantly made Mary feel, and how that might tie into the staff's feeling of guilt, or potentially her guilt about the killings that she can never quite make up for, it never feels like anything will be enough, or the way the staff can very much see her like an innocent child that they're eager to protect from a reality she is already plagued with, and what guilt might mean there...but all of those speculations could be completely wrong, you'd just have to work with her to figure these things out
It's probably best to exclude Norma and Mary's classmates and families views on what these two girls did to those poor tots. Kids tend to label other kids, especially their bullies as bad and undeserving of forgiveness. I can only imagine Mary and Norma's siblings being bullied because of what they did and the media fiasco didn't really help them.
Betty seemed more than willing to sell her daughter but not have anything to do with her.
I wonder if Betty viewed her other children, especially her son, Mary's brother as going to end up like his sister. If Betty didn't really love Mary, why didn't she let that woman at the adoption center adopt her. Betty just seems like she was stuck being a mom when she didn't want to be and the guys that got her pregnant just got to go on their merry way and get other women pregnant and live their lives.
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Stop saying We please. Mary did it she was 11. Norma had an intellect of a 8 yr old. Just shows Mary is not entirely taking responsibility.
i love marybell
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Sorry, this comment is not about this podcast. I am really curious about your perspective on the cultural war regarding trans people. As a trans person I am struggling , constantly asking questions like, am I just mentally ill? I know there's lots of movies out there about gender non-conforming people that you could potentially talk about. It seems like a pertinent question at this time.
As a gender non conforming person, I am mentally ill. I think narcissism plays a part in some people's gender issues, it does in mine and after I noticed it in me I noticed it in more of my trans and crossdresser friends. I don't even think that's a negative, its just something that is
It'd certainly be an interesting video to make! To answer briefly now, I know it isn't something you can give a definitive yes or no to. But if it's who you are, it's who you are, right? I don't think it's something to feel shame over or like it's a "wrong" thing to fix. There might be some sort of deeper or unconscious feelings that have been a factor in becoming trans, but that doesn't mean it's bad to feel the way you do. Experiences do play a hand in shaping us, sometimes even bad experiences, but that doesn't mean the way they shape us is always "bad" it just means "this is who I am right now and this is how I feel. That's ok."
I don't want to dismiss your situation when I know nothing about it, because the questions your asking yourself will be important, and I think the doubt and worry are always natural and they are difficult feelings to process, but I'd suggest it's better to focus on the "why do I struggle to accept the way I feel?" rather than "why do I feel this way to begin with?" If, IF you are trans as a result of mental health struggles, does that fact actually change anything? (I don't know the answer). Mental health issues and transgender often do go hand in hand, but not necessarily because of being transgender itself. Sometimes because of the way our culture makes people feel about being transgender, treats it with disgust etc, or sometimes because it is still a massive change, or I know someone who went through a little bit of a grieving process about losing who she used to be, even though the change felt right. We feel how we feel but that doesn't exactly mean those feelings are wrong, just that they're there
So ya going to blame Betty's parents? Who raised Betty?
I think you might misunderstood, if you feel I'm a) excusing Mary's actions or b) blaming her parents for everything. It's just not as simple as that. My entire point is that Mary needs to face up to what she's done but also that we as a society can't just write people like this off as "monsters" the longer we keep doing that, the less these kind of situations will be prevented
Most abused kids don’t commit murder.
Most serial killers are abused as kids
In the 1960s, I worked as a porter/driver at Prudhoe Mental Hospital. I was told to go to Newcastle and pick up two young girls. I picked them up with the hospital mini-bus from a facility in Newcastle. The girls were both very pretty and for the whole journey, they never said a word. I was to drop them off at a home/ward at the Children's Village in the hospital. I believe it was called the Flemming ward. I was never told on that day who these children were, all I knew was they were there to be assessed. When I did find out who they were I was shocked as they appeared to be quiet and well-mannered. I wouldn't have thought they were capable of doing what they did.