A QUICK ADDITION: It's a minor point and most of you won't care but when discussing Joffrey, I used the phrase "I don't wish to say this is all Cersei's fault"..which kind of implies that it is. I didn't intend to give that impression. It is never about "fault" or "blame". It would be a painfully simplistic (and often harmful) way of looking at anyone's difficulties to just brand someone "at fault" for it. It's always about understanding the dynamics which are NEVER just one-way. It's obviously just bad wording that came about from the free-form manner I record my videos in (also I was shivering from fever throughout the recording of this)...but because the bad wording could cause troubling implications, I wanted to try and correct that. And since I'm here, I forgot to discuss at the end that another of Cersei's political issues is how resolutely she is focused on destroying enemies, rather than actually building anything. There is no sense of direction or aim beyond removing whatever enemies she happens to notice at a given time. Again, I think that says a lot about Cersei: someone idealising the power of Tywin and attempting to replicate the idealised version. Someone completely crushed by her own fears and insecurity and how that makes it incredibly difficult to look outwards at the future. People often buy into a leader's vision as much as the leader themselves. Tragically, Cersei is more caught up creating and removing enemies than she is building anything that anyone would want to buy in to. I think there's some Littlefinger quote somewhere about how Cersei desires power but has absolutely no idea what to do with it. Anyway, I'm rambling. Thankyou for watching, and here is a link to my patreon and instagram Patreon link: patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree Instagram link: instagram.com/little_thought_tree
Marcela is the only woman in Cersies life she doesn't abuse. She mentions how beautiful she is. She says she is fragile and she desires to protect her. She is treating that girl the way she wants to be treated. She is projecting to her daughter too.
I don't think she wants equality for herself, she wants supremacy for herself. But an excellent point nonetheless. She's not at all interested in bettering the state of women in general.
@@finncullen she is a mysoginist more than anything. In the books she is immediately jealous and scathing of all other women characters. She is the archetypal pick me girl.
Everyone talks about how Cersei loved her children, and I believe she really did. It is used by her and others as an excuse for her ruthlessness. Yet there is I believe a darker reason for her protectiveness. Remember in the prophecy Cersei will not be deposed and die until after her children are dead. So long as they are ok she's ok. Also you forget that Tywin in the show actually tells Cersei he doesn't listen to her more not because she's a woman but because she is not as clever as she thinks she is.
That's a really good point about protecting them in order to stop the prophecy. It seems such a clear point now you've said it, that I can't believe I overlooked it. Thankyou!
But I also think, she’s not a clever as she thinks she is because she was never given a chance to hone her intelligence in her most formative years, and that was because she was a woman and denied access to most circles that would enable her to hone her raw talent
I always had the impression that if she had shown some kind of potential ,like dunno Lady Olenna , Tywin would have considered her; I nevew saw it as a gender thing in Tywin´s case. If anything, the books always gave me the impression that Lannister women have dominant personalities and are allowed more than in other houses. We see Joanna and Genna , and also there is Leona Woolfield (the book doesn´t say that she is a Lannister but her name and description fits, I could be wrong though) and her daughters.
In the book at least, it's debatable. She loves the idea of them, at least, but not necessarily them as people. Just as far as they can be seen by her as extensions of herself. Pretty much like how she sees Jaime as herself with a cock (and pretty much loses attraction to him after he stops looking like her)
That girl is a survivor, just like her sister. For everyone that says Arya and Sansa are like oil and water, look closer. They are cut from the same cloth. One just powers through with a skirt and pretty words; the other, a knife.
@@jessjess23brooks89 I hate when the Fandom reduces Sansa down to stupid. She survived how she knew how. Even if she was good with a sword, we know that attacking all your problems doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to take a different approach. I'm interested in seeing how her political skills develop under Littlefinger in the Vale (if George ever finishes the books) because I think it will truly show her intelligence and resilience even more than she already has.
@@MissSimone02 Couldn't agree more! That girl is whip smart. She knows exactly what to say in a tense situation on the fly. And if the fan theories are correct and Littlefinger has been slowly poisoning Sweet Robin, I don't think Sansa is going to appreciate it. Sure Sweet Robin is a bit of a little shit, but he is one of the few family members Sansa has left. We all know Littlefinger better watch his back with his girl prodigy. Also, George announced that Winds is 75% done! I have reluctant hope.
@@jessjess23brooks89 I have heard about Winds being supposedly 75% complete but I will withhold feelings until the publishers have it in hand. That's when I'll get excited lol 😆 But I do think the fan theory has some merit. Just a little. But it's also just that canonically, the women of the Vale (at least in the ruling family) have trouble having children. So I believe Sweet Robin being weak and frail might just be naturally occurring. I also think that Littlefinger is very aware that he doesn't have the full support of the Vale and killing sweetrobin instead of puppetting him would be more detrimental. And while Sansa is also related to the Vale she's the key to the North and more valuable as that, than just taking over the Vale. That's just how I feel about it though.
It's so lovely to see a character study of Cersei that reads as sympathetic (though not woobifying her) unlike what i tend to see in the fandom. You even explored a lot of stuff that tends to be overlooked like her sense of idenity also deeply reliant on Jaime (and not just the other way around), and how deeply lonely she is in AFFC and a lot of misconceptions about certain scenes such as the killing of Melara being motivated by her fear of the prophecy and not jealousy over Jaime.
I have to say though, she does not see Joffrey as always perfect, she minimizes his flaws extensively but she knows that he has them (during the walk of atonement she even expresses how she feels grateful at Tommen being the one she has to go back to)
No, I think I did probably simplify that in discussion, you're right it's not even technical that she sees him as perfect, more that that's part of her defence. She's not blind but she tries her best to interpret him in a favourable light
@@mylittlethoughttree I frankly find it's all rather disgusting and sickening. Cersei is a key example of why we shouldn't sympathies with Narcissists. Hell, Don't even Empathize with Narcissists like Cersei!
@@shawnwarrynn8609 You can empathize with someone without excusing their actions. Cersei is without a doubt a terrible person but I do feel sorry for her but nor do I excuse her actions.
@@gregoryschweitzer1735 Perhaps, but maybe that's just precisely what people like Cersei want! And how they start to manipulate and even control others!
We don't know the personality of Joanna Lannister obviously but with the influence she had over Tywin I think if she had lived all the Lannisters would have been entirely different people. I think cersei could have definitely benefited from having a maternal figure and not having one really screwed her up.
I mean, in the books she presumably has her Aunt Genna around a lot, but I think by the time of Joanna's death, Cersei was already Cersei-enough that she wouldn't listen to anyone, then when Joanna died she turned that into 'you're not my mother so I don't have to listen to you' (based on how Cersei acts when anyone tries to split her and Jaime up I would guess that she probably didn't actually like Joanna that much while she was alive, but just idolised her after she was dead)
Well in the books joanna catches cersei and Jaime fooling around and separates them. But she dies not too long after so she wasn't able to kill the incest in the crib.
honestly, its debatable. Joanna could've made Cersei worse. i think the angelic dead mother/wife trope has tricked us into thinking its her death that made Tywin a monster but the timeline of events says otherwise. My take is that Joanna was Tywin with teets. we do know some things about Joanna and its that In the battle of the Blackwater cersei tells sansa that it was her mother who taught her that "tears are a woman's weapon" and that we know that she covered up the incest between Jaime and Cersei. My guess is that its very likely that Joanna Lannister was as manipulative as Cersei but probably smarter and tywin saw her as his kindred spirit. Who tywin is also tells us who he is capable of loving. he HATES anything that makes his family seem weak. thats his biggest character trait. he hated his own father for being too soft and too much of a people-pleaser. he hates his own son (who in every other way is exactly like him) for being small, deformed and physically weak. I dont think Joanna wouldve been so beloved by him if he felt she wouldn't completely approve of all his war crimes that he commits in the name of respecting the Lannister name. if She supposedly had influence on him then its not like he was telling her shut up, be silent and pretty and bear his children. she was his right hand woman. Joanna and Tywin were first cousins so theres no political benefit for tywin, a highlord and warden of the west to marry into his own family. This was true love and this all happened a few years AFTER he ended Houses Reyne and Tarbeck so Joanna cant even claim to be oblivious about what kind of man she was marrying.
Joanna was a Lannister and brought up as one. I wouldnt be surprised if she was a smarter version of Cercei tbh. Tywin loved her a lot and took her council. It is safe to say she may have had a similiar temperment to her husband and daughter but was intelligent unlike Cercei. I wouldnt be surprised if she would resent Tyrion. Her personality is basically unknown even though she is a very significant character as she and her death would really cause the family to be even more dysfunctional. I think too that Cercei was old enough at that stage and uses her mothers death as an excuse more then anything to be nasty. People seem to idolise Joanna but she coulda been just az heartless and ruthless as her husband. He married her over an alliance for a reason, she married him no questions asked a few years after Tywin ordered massacres. I would just be weary saying if Joanna was alive things would be different. They probably would be a bit different but Cercei was a narcissist from a young age and resented the fact she wasn't a male.
*Cersei's torture of Sansa comes down to one simple name: Lyanna Stark. Sansa was the living embodiment of the reminder of the woman 1st chosen over her (hence triggering her inner unworthiness) by her childhood crush Prince Rhaegar & her Husband King Robert. twice burned.* 🔥👸🏻🔥
@@mylittlethoughttree I always thought of Sansa as the "good" Cercei; when Cercei looks at her, she sees the person she could have been if she made better choices. Sansa is a younger, prettier, *nicer* version of Cercei. Sansa's a walking reminder of all her insecurities so she torments her to feel better about herself.
@@MsDaydream3rCersei thought Sansa was a stupid and naive little girl she didn’t look at her niceness with jealousy she looks at it as weakness and she wasn’t fully convinced of it either
@@MsDaydream3r yes and no. i dont think its about choices because cersei's whole thing is how powerless she is. both she and sansa are powerless to change much about their circumstances so shes not regretful. afterall she had no choice in marrying robert or her fathers failed attempts to get her a marriage to prince rhaegar. but shes angry at sansa for still being naive because she sees herself in sansa as a young girl, marrying a prince/king. in her own twisted maternal way she thinks shes helping sansa by being cruel to her. she thinks shes enlightening sansa on the ways of the world by telling to shut the fuck up and put up with joffrey's abuse. in one of her chapters she basically says this saying that she "taught sansa so much about the world and sansa repaid her by killing her son".
I always liked that Cersei and Tyrion have more in common than they would admit. They both want to be acknowledged by a father that doesn’t treat either of them well, her for being a woman and Tyrion for being a dwarf, despite being better at politics than their golden brother and wanting to get even better at it. I don’t know if proper training might’ve made her better at navigating the throne. She wouldn’t have started the war that Joffrey did, I think. The show having a quiet moment where they bonded ever so briefly over having to deal with her son was so good. He swiftly ended any slight empathy she had with humor, but there was that brief glimmer of mutual understanding.
Tyrion also gives her a sympathetic look when she is arguing with Tywin over being forced to marry again. When she says she is not a brood mare, Tyrion looks very sad for her, but she insults him shortly after, and the moment is over.
I didn't see Cersei being treated poorly by her father because of her gender, she was treated like most high born ladies of Westeros. She was raised to secure a good alliance, and she was often in King Landing's so she wasn't totally unaware of politics. Tywin disregard her later because she did a bad job as queen Regent and as a mother in general. It's part of why he wanted her to wed someone again, to get her away. For Tyrion it was almost the opposite, he was openly despised until he proved himself clever and able to be in charge. Later she again does a bad job when she is in charge, she get herself taken as a prisoner few months after Tywin death, Tyrion is gone and Jaime isn't there neither. Cersei blames everything on her gender yet she doesn't try to grow out of that, she lean on her beauty, birth, riches and she keeps making bad decisions
I just watched the first season, and I was always amazed at her facial expressions. When she’s alone, or deep in thought, she almost looks as if she’s in pain, as if she understands fully how futile her life is going to be. But then something, someone more young or more inexperienced or simply below her somehow(which is, let’s face it, everyone), steps in front, and suddenly that expression of pain and panic morphs into a sadistic, cold stare, like a cat suddenly realizing that it still has claws and will quite enjoy killing the mouse in front of it. It’s kind of fascinating to me how similar those two expressions are for her.
I think in regards to Mercella (dunno how to spell it) she was ignored by Cersei. But I also think she views her children as being all three made from her, since I do see her viewing herself and Jaime as the same being. I think her distraughtness over her daughter leaving was because that was what happened to her. Seeing her daughter be shipped off and betrothed to someone for political gain. Look at how she treated Sansa, I’m assuming she believes all young girls to be treated that cruelly by their host family’s. I believe she views Joffrey as inheriting all from her, her strength and Jaime’s physicality which is why he is going to be “such a good king”. And I think she views Tommen as inheriting her weaknesses, her femininity and Jaime’s kind heart. He’s more like him than like Cersei and so she rejects him.
Joffrey is her as she should have been I think. Her strengths in a male body, her and Jaime finally combined into one perfect being. Their daughter gets ignored by her mostly because of her misogyny. I don’t think she’d have ever let her marry, honestly. And Tommen is where the “feminine” weaknesses in both her and Jaime combined so she hates
@@darthcarrots2581 To be fair, even Cersei was worried about Joffrey's ruthlessness. But, her bad parenting kind of set this scenario up. She spent his childhood making excuses for his terrible behavior and Robert, seeing his viscious behavior early on, responded heavy handed with fists or ignoring him completely. Why she was so surprised when Joffrey stopped taking her counsil is beyond me. He would not come to heel for the mother who taught him ruthlessness and covered up his mistakes. As our man Tyrion once said, "You can't put a leash on a dog, once you've put a crown on it's head."
@@jessjess23brooks89 Joffrey was also shown to have an overwhelming desire for his father’s approval, not unlike Cersei’s feelings for Tywin. And so he turned against Cersei the same way that Robert did, in a very similar way Cersei trying (and failing) to “embody” Tywin’s cold ruthlessness.
I actually think that for the narcissist that cersei definitely was, she tries to treat Sansa as kindly and with as much respect as she possibly could. she is a realist who t tries to educate Sansa while still being loyal to her son. I think she totally relates to Sansa, and for a cluster B personality, I think she des pretty well as a mother in law, considering her upbringing and alcoholism and the abuse she survived. '
I'm actually quite surprised to hear that Cersei hated Tommen so much. In hindsight, it makes so many of his actions in the show make much more sense. But I do wonder why they changed Cersei's actions towards him so much. It always felt so odd how much she seemed to love him, but then as soon as he dies, she acted as though she felt no grief at all and seemed to think he betrayed her by taking his own life.
@@Argos-xb8ek To be fair, plenty of real human beings are narcissistic parents. And they do tend to have at least one child who they make out of be the main scapegoat upon which they place a lot of their abuse. Cersei mistreating Tommen wouldn't make her less human as a character, it would just make her a much less likable human.
At least in the books Tommen was mostly ignored by Cersei until Joffrey's dies, and even then she is more concern about his place in the Iron Throne than his feelings and needs.
@@nidohime6233 So she repeated exactly what her father did to her, which honestly just makes her more realistic since that’s such a common generational trauma scenario.
Everybody hates her. It’s because of the great talent Lena Headey is. Her ability to deliver a performance and deliver the dialogue. Just, every little mannerism. Every little facial expression. She nailed playing a antagonist. A lot of actors fall flat. Lena was awesome.
I think having Tommen kill her would certainly be a nice parallel to Tywin being killed by his own son because of the hatred he put his child through. She would become like him, just as she always wished.
It could happen, but I think that was part of George's footnotes for the story that made it into the show. Tommen's arc was that he never made his own decisions, having everyone else make them for him. And in the end, when he has nothing left, he makes his own decision for the first time in his life, in ending it.
But the maggy the frog prophecy states that all her children die before her so Tommen couldn’t be the valonqar. I know prophecys are made to have a different interpretation and Tommen killing her would be a good twist
I also think Cersei's attraction to Jaime is partially born out of the fact that Jaime is the only man who really treats her kindly. The only other man she really loved was Rhaegar, a man famous as a kind and charitable man who sang to the commonfolk. Cersei had that fantasy of becoming the Queen to a kind and loving King. She wanted to be a mother. She was happy about that part of the prophecy. She was enthusiastic initially about marrying Robert, but he beat her and r@ped her and never let go of Lyanna. Cersei gives up Jaime when she has a chance at a relationship with Rhaegar, and later Robert. Then when those relationships were ruined by Rhaegar's rejection and Robert's abuse, she returned to Jaime. Cersei feels worthless because she is a women. Cersei hates other women, yet she is constantly treated like an object by all the men around her. Cersei clings to the only man that treats her like a human being. Yet she wants to be more than the role she is forced into. She controls Jaime because of her need for him, but also because he grants her power. Cersei is the perfect foil for Sansa in a way, both were little girls who dreamed of being queen to a chivalrous knight, but their dreams are smashed. Sansa eventually learns to become strong, to understand that the world can be cruel, and how to navigate that world. Cersei descended into bitterness and hate. Cersei is a victim, and she victimizes everyone else around her because of it. In her own twisted way, Cersei is Sansa's mentor. She teaches her that her naivety is dangerous and tells her what knight's are capable of. She does enjoy that horror and shock she inflicts on Sansa. Cersei craves control because she never had it. It's why she is the way she is with Jaime. Jaime is her knight in shining armor, but he is HER knight. He belongs to her in her mind.
"he beat her and r@ped her and never let go of Lyanna" Uh, no? He hit their son who cut open a pregnant cat to see its kittens, and his wife when she started making threats to killing Sansa/Arya, the daughters of his brother. It's morally reprehensible but I don't think you can call what is essentially a medieval king banging a queen who hates him r@pe (even though morally we know a wife has the right to refuse sex and doesn't deserve to be forced by her husband. We also know Cersei kept their sex to a minimum and often 'handled' Robert with her hands, mouth and thighs, and Robert was often so drunk he didn't notice). I'd say her attraction to Jamie is that they're near identical twins, and being a power-bottom with Jamie is about as close as she's going to get to being a man. I agree with you about the foil between Cersei and Sansa though...the key difference seems to be that Cersei had a ruthless father who provided for her, and Sansa had an honourable father who failed to save her and left her to fend for herself and learn the game in a way Cersei never had to.
@@Nystariii Her having to "handle him" in other ways is still being assaulted, and that didn't work every time. He stumbled into her bed in a drunken haze many times. In terms of how you interpret Cersei and Jaime, that is entirely subjective, so if that's your interpretation then good for you. I think more things went into Sansa and Cersei then just their fathers, but you are right about their influence being massive.
I disagree slightly. With the flashback to the prophecy you saw that even at a young age Cersei was entitled and spoiled. Demanding the witch tell her a prophecy or suffer consequences for refusing her. Cersei wasn’t a sweet romantic girl that saw her aspirations crushed by adulthood and the men around her, she was always a vindictive little bitch, beginning with Tyrion’s very existence for “causing”their mother’s death. Tywin and Cersei’s hatred of Tyrion is irrational because women die in childbirth all the fucking time. It is a crapshoot every time a woman makes it if she will carry a baby to term and survive birthing it. Of course you could argue some of Tywin’s anger comes from his suspicion that Aerys might have sired Tyrion, but Cersei has nothing but “he killed our mother”, when that is what babies sometimes do to their mothers. You could make another argument that Tyrion is hated by Cersei because it is a male that killed their mother, and she has a chip on her shoulder for being a woman in a man’s world, but tough shit.
A little off topic, but I think the "Gold will be their crowns, Gold will be their shrouds" could possibly hint at the storyline with Dorne trying to declare Myrcella Queen over Tommen. If that goes through, all her children will die as kings or queens
This is hands down the best Cersei Lannister analysis I've ever seen. This, alongside those you did with Tywin, Tyrion and Jaime are masterful. I liked it because you treated her with empathy and as tragic (which I've always seen her as, as a poor wretched soul). Yet you're not afraid to call her out when the many horrible things she's done pop up.
Yeah, I try to empathise with everyone BUT empathy doesn't have to mean excusing, ignoring, or acceding to a person's bad traits or behaviour. A lot of people seem to think it's one or the other. I suppose it can be difficult to manage both but often worthwhile. I'm rambling, thanks for the kind words, glad you enjoyed it ☺️
@@mylittlethoughttree Well, I think Cersei may have been fake to Myrcella. I must clarify the way I see Cersei is a Frankenstein mix of her book and show self, which are not the same, but I like to see her in a way that takes traits from both. My idea is that Cersei lied, manipulated and aimed to control her daughter just as much as her sons. We may have never seen it on-screen or on-page because the writer or screenwriter didn't consider it worthwhile to include it. But let's say that they are real or that they exist outside of such limitations. I think Cersei would see Myrcella as a mirror of herself and would project herself onto her. She wouldn't love her daughter for who she is, rather thinking Myrcella is a copy of her. I also believe (or like to believe) Cersei would see her as perfect and as a fulfillment of her desires. Myrcella would be as brave as Jaime and maybe Cersei would in her mind replicate the lost love and pain of Joanna with her. I don't know how to explain it, but I think she would make a story in her head of how much of a good mother she is, watching her relationship with her daughter as what she could never have with Joanna. An idealised version. Personally, I also feel like Cersei would see her as perfect or flawless, since admitting otherwise would make her herself by association less than goddess-like. All in all, I think she mostly would be a horrendous, manipulative mother to Myrcella. Emotionally cold (except when she's feeling emotional and needs reassurance or to feel supported) and treating her like a pawn or a pair of shiny shoes. As something that builds up her own power (she can marry her off to someone she sees fit), as the heiress to her beauty. Sorry for the comment, but one of my favourite things about the Planetos universe is parent-children relationships. Especially how they snowball into each generation. I do find it interesting that Cersei complains about Tywin treating her like a broodmare and leaving her love-starved, ignored and feeling abandoned. Yet she repeats the same trauma in her kids. She treats Joffrey like the almighty lion that will preserve her legacy, much as Tywin did with Jaime. She disregards and sees Myrcella in a very superficial way (or again, I would expect that from her) when she constantly complains and rages about Tywin doing this to her. And she treats poor Tommen with pity, is domineering towards her last child and barely sees or recognises him at all, outside of his role as Joffrey's bannerman/throne holder/window from which to grasp at power. It would be interesting to see how her motherhood would affect the three of them individually, because her rearing style would definitely twist them all 3 in different ways.
I think it's interesting that each of Tywin's children think that they're his "true heir," and yet none of them share his most distinctive character trait: his obsession with the legacy of the Lannister name. And even as they strive to be him while not really understanding him, they never stop resenting him.
Tyrion and Cersei, sure, but I don't know if Jaime is that dead set on being Tywin's 'true heir' the same way the others are. At the very least he lacks their ambition
I had a narcissistic misogynistic father and I still struggle with internalised misogyny. We’ve been no contact for 6 years or more but a younger, different version of me, under the most terrible of circumstances, might never have gotten away. It was easy to idolise a charming arsehole like him. So, this assessment of her relationship to her womanhood and other women seems pretty believable. I didn’t even realise I felt worthless, I just accepted that my position in the wold was what he believed it was. The way teenage boys treated me in high school just confirmed it all. If I didn’t have an awesome, intelligent mother, I would’ve been screwed. I was never really into Game of Thrones but I identify with her character in a way. She’s oddly relatable in a screwed up kinda way.
That's great to hear how you've moved forwards! It can be incredibly, incredibly difficult, even with a good mother supporting you. She is relatable though, sometimes I think there's nothing healthier than relating to a villain whilst also stopping to recognise their flaws and how you're different
Her character is insanely relatable. As a woman, born in a conservative country, women can't go about anywhere they want like men do but thank god, we have internet. The exposure we get because of it changes everything.
I just love that these deep psychological profiles are possible, with the wealth of information that G.R.R.M. gives us, and the thought he's put into his characters. I'm one of those people who doesn't mind if he never finishes writing the series, because I'd rather have the quality of the material that we already have, than a rushed ending. He's inspired so much thought and analysis, and your series on the Lannisters is seriously one of the best I've seen.
A narcissistic daughter of a narcissistic father and a mother of a narcissistic psychopath. She was only able to feel the narcissistic kind of love towards Jaime who she saw as part of her and her children that she also saw as her. And how she showed that what she hated most were the parts of herself she rejected. honestly this was portrayed so well.
Cersei's feelings for Myrcella, I think, are expressed pretty well in the show after her death is revealed for her. "She was nothing like me at all...no spite, no hate. It made me think that, despite all the horrible things I've done, that if I could've produced such a lovely child that perhaps there is some good in me too." or words to that effect. Doubt the books have that, and that it was an addition in the show, but it actually works pretty well from the points of view that a) She probably neglected her the same way she herself was neglected, however while she was still a teenage girl Cersei could still look at her daughter in such a way (precisely because Myrcella doesn't have Cersei's resentfulness of being born a woman that would make her stand up to her directly), even if Myrcella's actual thoughts on Dorne might in the end turn out to be like in the show - that she really doesn't want to go back to her neglectful power-hungry mother. And b) it makes sense she would view her daughter like that, because her existence in the end helps her sleep at night a great deal, with the words she uses there - the horrible things she does, she does to protect her daughter too so it's not all because of her selfishness that she seeks power, it's to protect those she loves!...even if she does neglect them horribly by doing so. So if Myrcella ever were to die well...that chief excuse or reason (of protecting the one remaining child she'd feel nothing but positive thoughts of) is suddenly gone and it won't take long for her in the book to go to extremes like blowing up the Sept in the show.
Book cersei gives no genuine fucks about her children, she treats Tommen like an object and virtually never thinks about Myrcella, and her love for Joff really only stemmed from her love with Jamie (which in itself stems from her self-obsessesed narcissism because they look/looked so much alike-i.e. she sees herself in Jamie and loves only herself)
One of the things I've always found excellent of Lena Headey's performance was that, despite her being an incredibly attractive woman, I have never, not once, thought of Cersei as attractive. We are told that she is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, but that facial expression that Lena permanently keeps on Cersei's face does a perfect job of making her not appear attractive, despite literally being so. It's so fitting for the character too, that her face should be off-putting, as that better reflects her inner beauty, or lack thereof.
This is so real ! The constant disgust, disapproval, lack of respect, etc. was always present in her facial expressions. Also call the authorities on the other commenter who says he would be like Jaime if given the chance xoxoxo
re: Tywin's teachings and Cersei's learning, recall that Cersei remembers his lessons only through what she overheard Tywin tell Jaime, ex. love cannot warm your home (paraphrasing)... even TYRION has "known from long experience" how Tywin and Kevan operate in councils, while Cersei was not at councils until she was Queen Regent and Tywin was Hand of the King this is VITAL to understanding Cersei's role in the Lannister family dynamic: she is the sole child that Tywin never prepared and never disowned, and she ultimately does the most damage to his legacy by destroying it from the inside Tywin, too, treats his children as extensions of his will: Tyrion was his legal heir but Tywin would flout the law to deny him his claim; Cersei as regent was of higher authority than Tywin but he still would force her to marry again and leave the council; Jaime swore sacred oaths as Kingsguard but Tywin would again aim to flout the law by intending to remove him from his position as Lord Commander then disowning him when he refused and so, Cersei's genuine love of her children becomes conflated with her viewing them as extensions of herself - it is not one or the other, they are pathologically merged Cersei is an AMPLIFIER who takes Tywin's Lannister superiority and exaggerates it, to the point of great self-destruction because Tywin failed to prepare her for rulership: he raised her as a pawn, so once she became queen with ultimate power Cersei continues on thinking one move ahead, a queen who plays as a pawn because that is all Tywin instilled in her its incredibly tragic because Cersei DOES have intellect (she eventually correctly deduced who murdered Joffrey and why, for example) but she lacks judgement (setting up Margaery for legal punishment as a queen, little realising that she herself is ALSO a queen who can equally so face those exact punishments) Cersei is embodiment of all the flaws inherent to Tywin's ideology and methodology, and it is entirely purposeful on GRRM's part as critique of Lannister superiority: even if Tywin were to perfectly recreate himself in an heir to his legacy, his utter disregard for his daughter on basis of sex means that someone like Cersei, who destroys the family from the inside through her lack of preparation once empowered, is an inevitability... Joffrey also becomes an inevitability as Tywin not preparing Cersei means she cannot prepare Joffrey that is the reason Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey all appear together as shades under Casterly Rock in Jaimems weirwood dream
myrcella is described as being the perfect little lady. she's as beautiful and kind as tommen but is also bold and witty but isnt soft or weak and is strong so she isnt scared of joffrey. she has all of the good traits of joffrey and tommen, (willfullness and strength but also kindness and gentleness) without all of the cruelty or weakness. She is everything cersei SHOULD want her children to be but even Cersei overlooks myrcella because shes a girl. Cersei is incapable of seeing how much more suited to the Iron Throne Myrcella would be than her brothers ironically for the same reasons she felt neglected by tywin, because theyre women.
I love Cersei's POV chapters, mainly because she's just such an awful, insane, delusional person. It's so fun to read. I find all the Lannister siblings stand out to me in the books. I think all the childhood trauma made them more interesting characters lol Thanks for the breakdown! It was very interesting 🙂
I really do think that some of Cersei's characterization is based on some of the real world misogyny in some ways and how it manifests in some women/girls (in an extreme way). I myself spent my early years in a very religious community that used words like "servant, subordinate, underlying, weak, sneaky" etc. to describe the girls and women. So I mean Of Course many of them said they wanted to be boys 😅🤣 why would a person want to be those negative things? That type of environment of course would promote some feelings of internalized misogyny. On the flip side, it's also interesting how the narrative seems to note that Cersei seems to attribute all of her problems rooted in this misogyny instead of owning up to her own missteps. Perhaps this is Martin's way of showing how yes there are misogynistic or unfair systems in society but also people can get lost in their own victimhood mentality in a way that makes them lose objectivity? Or perhaps I'm overthinking it
Hmm, what religious community did you grew up in? I myself grew up in a religious community and has never been subjected to such words. In fact, most of the concepts I grew up in as a woman revolves around themes of "Heart of the family" or "Pillars of society" or the famous saying in my country "Ilaw nang Tahanan" which means Light of the Household. It greatly helped me with my confidence as a woman growing up, specially when the most celebrated saint in my religion was a woman. I guess It really just depends on the community and the culture. I definitely see more misogynistic rhetoric in the western religious scene, which makes me think that the problem stems from the culture of that country itself.
Spot on. Girls raised in misogynistic societies / households will often have some type of gender dysphoria or just wish they were a boy so that they could be seen as human
@@pineapplesonpizza7726 I spent my early life in a religious cult that had roots in Christian Fundementalism originally, but had drifted into very controlling and abusive doctrine by the church elders. I no longer associate with those people from that part of my past as it was traumatic..
Cersei has a very toxic relationship with the power she covets. The Lannisters based a lot of their reputation on terror. They stepped on people to make a point and they sort of relish it. There is a reason the "Rains of Castamere" is their theme song.
I've always thought Cersei's favourite was Mycella, she lost her mother at an early age and this was her chance to get that pure maternal love back in her life. It's interesting that Margarey is how Cersei could have been if Tywin had raised her as his equal. She is a fascinating character, everyone loving how she looked but Jamie was the only person that loved her for her.
This was such a great video. It's very interesting to explore the way she idealizes Tywin and how that builds into the way she tries to act politically. Great as always.
4:00 I have to point out, that no-one would've listened Daenerys if she didn’t have dragons. And you can see how both Stannis and his little brother treated Caitlin: She is a messenger, using the words of her dead husband, so she is heard. Caitlin had power because North men were fighting in the south, where she was born. And Robb wasn’t married yet. Noble women (who aren't Dornish or from the North), do get the short stick in Westros: Their only job is to give birth, look pretty, and pray for the Faith of the Seven.
So true, if she wasn't the dragon with dragon and the ability to not get burned by fire. Nobody would give her shit. Dothraki followed her because of the fire thingy and unsullied were just emotionless servants to a master.
Tyrion cares a lot about Myrcella and Tommen, I would even say that he loves them dearly. Since Cersei has been so focused on "her golden boy" she has in many ways ignored her two younger children. But with Joffrey coming into his own, Tyrion knows that Cersei might shift her attention to her younger and more easily led children. Especially Myrcella who is to "become a woman" which would make her a prime target for Cersei's misogyni. Myrcella will also be courted by the highest lords of the land while Cersei fades out, which certainly could make Cersei mad with both jealousy and hate against the system that mistreated her. And the only person she could take that out on would be Myrcella. I'm of the firm belief that Tyrion "shipped off" Myrcella to Dorn because that is the only place she would be outside of Cersei's reach. It was also a smart political move, but I think that for Tyrion the safety of his niece actually was his main concern. Better that Cersei would blame him and hate him even more, than seeing that hate aimed at someone he cared deeply about.
Also, Dorne had a much better situation for womem than Westeros did. I'm not saying they were wup wup progressive, but women did have more rights and respect in Dorne than Westeros.
I don't remember where it's mentioned, but Randyl Tarly clears up Maggy the Frog's fate. Seems she eventually relocated to the Reach, but continued doing her prophesies until Randyl lead a force to burn her out of her cottage. She died inside. Please do Brienne of Tarth next as she too has deep seeded issues involving sex and gender. Indeed she even slipped up once and claimed to Jaime that she was her father's only surviving son, which Jaime caught and commented on. There are some parallels between Cersei and Brienne in there and I'd like to hear your thoughts.
This was a fantastic watch! I think another reason why Cersei hates Margaery so much has to do with what you brought up about Tywin isolating Cersei from any sort of mentorship/bonding, political education, etc. and the added trauma of Johanna dying when she was a child. Cersei sees this other, younger Queen, who not only is involved within her family's political schemes, she's actively protected and supported (as opposed to Cersei and Tywin) by the women in her life. Margaery was taught how to operate politically in Westeros as a woman, something Cersei was denied, and I think the lack of female affirmation and love in Cersei's life would really exacerbate the resentment she feels.
Cersei needed to imitate Margaery Tyrell, while women cannot rule directly, they can rule through the men they accompany. this even goes way back to Macbeth, where his wife would speak thoughts into his ear, influencing him to make moves she wanted but ultimately hurting himself
I mean.... that's NOT a good model either. There's a good reason why Arya is the main character instead of Sansa, since it's thanks to the Arya Starks of the world that women have rights. The Margaery Tyrells of the world are the "I got mine, so fuck you" type, since her altruism is FAKE (the people are starving BECAUSE the Tyrells manufactured a famine and then used the very food they deprived them of for PR points and it's why the Sparrow HAS the moral high ground, in spite of being a religious zealot, against Olenna et al).
@@irondragonmaiden im confused about how this orginates to the original comment they didnt say it was a good model, just the reality of the situation.
@@irondragonmaiden bro, we're talking about the world of Game of Thrones, not the real world. And Sansa was as much as a main character as Arya was in the books, and she has much more promise of succeding in the books than Arya does, as Arya to this day doesn't know how to play the political game, as Sansa is learning from Little Finger. Arya is a soldier, but there is only so much a soldier can do. And she isn't the feminist icon you think she is.
Tywin didn't put much focus on Cersei because she couldn't handle what was already expected of her. She couldn't manipulate Joffrey or bring him to heel. In fact, she made him worse. Tywin saw that and thought better of expanding her role.
True, but he didn't put much focus on her from the beginning anyway. As a parental figure, he should've helped teach and grow her into someone more capable
@@mylittlethoughttree Perhaps, particularly with an absent mother. But if you think about it, her incompetence goes back much further. It was her idea to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard thinking they would be together, but she didn't know her father well enough to predict how it would alienate him. Which is odd, considering legacy is Tywin's #1 preoccupation. Tywin told us himself "I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you are not as smart as you think you are."
@@mylittlethoughttree I wonder if the reason Tywin didn't focus on Cersei, aside from her being a woman, is due to Cersei looking a lot like Joanna and reminding Tywin of his dead wife.
What I always find interesting is the contrast between Brienne´s chapters and Cersei´s. Their thinking as opposite as their physical descriptions. After meeting Brienne in person, Cersei of course does nothing but to criticize her appearence; but in the end, Brienne has the strenght and training that Cersei desires. *I don´t remember much of her thoughts on Myrcella, but i do remember a scene of Tyrion (rigth after escaping king´slanding) wondering: If Myrcella (under dornish law) decided to challenge Tommen for the throne , who would Cersei choose?
Thank you much for analyzing Cersei! She is both my most loved and my most hated character from any story. Cersei means a lot for me personally and helped me through darker times as I see many parallels between me and her. 1 | Tywin's True Heir I agree! Especially that you mentioned the lack of her mother as a role model for femininity is a rare point when Cersei's character is discussed. I find this point very important and often missed! 2 | Jaime This is a better take on Cersei's relationship with Jaime than most I've read! So many people just simplify everything into a very simple version of narcissism. But you really missed an important point, I think. Regardless of the source of her love for Jaime, she learns at a very young age that their love is not accepted and seen as disgusting. She keeps trying to imagine herself with other men (Rhaegar and later Robert) but she keeps coming back for Jaime, always knowing that she can't live out her love openly. Her love is seen as something evil. This damaged her severely. I've never heard or read anyone seeing this besides me. George doesn't write about characters who are defined by just one trait, like you kind of interpret Cersei with her narcissism. 3 | Robert & Rhaegar 18:32 I really wouldn't say that just because her narcissism play a role, her love for Jaime isn't true or honest. Many circumstances can fuel love, true love. 4 | Maggy The Frog I like that you mentioned Jaime's part here! Also a good explanation for why she twisted Tyrion's penis. 36:14 How did you get that impression? Why do you think that she sees Joffrey as an extension of herself? It's an explanation that would fit with everything but I can't see any proof for it. 5 | Gold Shall Be Their Shrouds I think her kids are much more metaphors for how Cersei is/could have been than extensions of her. She is cruel, like Joffrey. Joffrey is her current state, this is why she likes him most. Myrcella is how she could have been if she had embraced her femininity differently. She's fond of her, but her femininity is figuratively taking away from her by Tyrion, just like Tyrion killed her mother who could have been a role model for her. Tommen is what Cersei could be if she were able to redeem herself. Of course you have to consider that Tommen is very young, so you have to estimate how Tommen would be as an adult. But Tommen is so to speak Jaime in his redeemed form (and therefore the same for Cersei). For various reasons Cersei does not want to change. This is why she is so critical of Tommen. Maybe she would feel differently if Tommen died? Maybe this could be a reason for her to redeem herself. 6 | Downfall I really hope for a redemption arc for Cersei. It could even end dramatically for her!
Myrcella is truly admirable. It’s one of the very few characters who aren’t afraid of Joffrey and confronts him when she sees or hears some of his BS. She is assertive and strong for that. And it’s not a façade as in Cersei, to hide weakness. Her strength is real. Pitty it wasn’t enough for Cersei to see that you can be strong “in spite of being a woman”. You can show strength without needing to fake it. I don’t think she is disregarded for being female. She is disregarded because she’s a secondary character and George R. R. Martin wasn’t interested in exploring her as such. Especially from the moment she’s sent to Dorne, far from KL. What a shame, though, I know. She seemed to be quite a likable character
Lena played the part very well, but I think she made Cersei a lot more relatable and likeable than book Cersei. Book Cersei was just genuinely an asshole, even to her children like tommen too.
After Tywin died, Jamie was still a kings guard and Tyrion had lost all his claims because of the death sentence. So by the rules of primogeniture she was lady of the rock right?
As an ftm trans guy, I didn't read Cersei as trans AT ALL. The main reason why is because she IDENTIFIES as a woman 100% of the time. She doesn't want to be a man, she wants the power and respect that men are given simply for being men. Notice she doesn't start doing more masculine things once her father dies or when she becomes queen. SHE SEES HERSELF AS A WOMAN, a woman in a society that is very unfair against women. And at the end of the day, that's the difference between a cis person and a trans person. Not wanting to be treated like the property of men does not make you trans.
These videos have been fantastic! If you do end up doing a analysis of other characters from SOIAF (even though none of them are as fun as the Lannisters), I’d really be interested in seeing a breakdown of Catelyn. She’s more complex and dark than a lot of people seem to notice.
I wondered the same about Qyburn about why he stayed and I kinda figure it's because this position by Cersei's side allows him the most freedom/resources to conduct his experiments/research which is ultimately the thing that drives him and is his ultimate life's goal and interest, to learn and experiment without fear of being arrested plus the addition of having unlimited funds to do his work.
Yeah that makes the most sense. Why he's still right by her side when dragons are literally at the gates, though? 🤔 He could've easily collected all his notes, recorded research, and shipped himself off to find a place again elsewhere
@@mylittlethoughttree True! I wondered how easy it woulda been for him to slip out because 1. He had knowledge of the castle's secret passages by the end because of the lil birds and 2. He Somewhat had franken-mountain under his .."control" maybe? SO escape woulda been easy enough for him. Maybe he truly believed they could win up until the end. Thanks for the reply, Qyburn has always peaked my interest!
29:46 she had a child, who went on to found house spicer and have two children. Rolph and sybell spicer, the former of which was made lord of castamere after the red wedding and the latter of which is married to the head of house Westerling.
This completely off subject of Cercei but I LOVED how Tommen looked at Maergery at the alter. That kid did a fantastic job well not that he had to try that hard Natalie Dormer is gorgeous but the look of oh my god you’re Soo beautiful! I love you! Everyone should get that look when they’re married. Just sayin.
This actually made me realize something. When I watched the show, I remember thinking that Joffrey's misogyny was due to Robert's influence. His mother was either ignored by him or not treated well by him and I'm sure Joffrey would have noticed this. However, it dawns on me now that Joffrey is that way because both of his parents are misogynists, albeit in different ways. Cersei sees women as weak and pathetic (projection, yes, but still) and Robert sees women as tools to use for pleasure or venting. Joffrey's behavior embodies both of these outlooks.
Cersei in the books had an Aunt Genna as a female influence, but she was married to a Frey and didn't live with them. Her two childhood female friends, who went with her to ask their future from Maggy the Frog. One named Jeyne ran away before Maggy said anything, just seeing her yellow eyes. She didn't hear her future, but ended up married to a knight and having lots of children. Melara, however, did hear Cersei's future, but told Cersei not to talk about it and it wouldn't come true. When Melara asked Maggy if she would marry Jaime, I never realized, but yes Cersei was possessive. Melara fell down a well not long after. Cersei was 10 years old, she never told anyone the prophesy and if Cersei remembers her screaming in that well then I think that it is pretty obvious Cersei killed her. The irony is that if Melara lived and married that would have negated the prophesy. But if Cersei killed someone at the age of ten then she was pretty much bad from the start. As for Maggy the Frog, she lived and prospered. Her name wasn't Maggy, it was something foreign from Essos and hard to pronounce. She was called Maggy which was a mispronounced version of the title Maegi. She was married to a merchant and between his spice imports and her love potions they became wealthy. Her male children were Knights and her daughter was Sibel Spicer who married the poor and badly needing a dowery Lord Westerling. They were the parents of Jeyne Westerling who married Robb Stark. Robb was wounded taking the castle and her mother sent her daughter to tend to him. Robb after hearing of Bran and Rickon's deaths slept with her as she tried to comfort him. People think that one of Maggy's love potions may have been used on him. This led to Robb's death as he broke his word to Walder Frey. People think that Cersei always loved Jaime, she first seduced Jaime so that he would join the Kingsguard for Aerys. Tywin was trying to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and Jaime to Lysa Tully. Cersei didn't want to lose Jaime. She planned that he would join Aerys Kingsguard and then Cersei married to Rhaegar would have both with her in Kingslanding. She was always very possessive of lovers and her children. Cersei would have happily made a marriage with Rhaegar and later with Robert. But Rhaegar fell through and Robert was not susceptible to Cersei, Lyanna was the only woman he would ever love and Cersei hated him for that. Gold will be their Crowns and gold their shrouds is a double meaning. They will have gold hair, but they will also all be crowned kings and queens before they die. In the books Myrcella is probably going to be crowned in Dorne, as they recognize female heirs in their culture. Littlefinger talks about the fact that the war of the Five Kings is going to be succeeded by the War of the Three Queens which is likely going to be Cersei, Margaery, and either Myrcella or Sansa.
I think there might be an effort to marry Myrcella to Aegon once it's clear he and The Golden Company are going to take King's Landing. I know Aegon is holding out for a marriage to Daenerys, but he might be persuaded that marrying Mrycella is the best route to avoid more war and claim legitimacy as his claim of being Rhagars son is likely going to be contested.
I discovered your channel from your comment on that Good Will Hunting video. This is the first video of yours I've run into and it's excellent. I'm so happy I found someone who has read these books and has put in the effort to properly psychoanalyze these well written characters. I would love it if you continued these analyses with others such as Catelyn, Brienne, or even Stannis. 42:35 I think you're on the money with Myrcella. It's meant to parallel Cersei's relationship to Tywin. Myrcella is seemingly a smart and kindhearted kid, very similar to Tommen, but Cersei never seems to care about her except that time Tyrion ships her away to Dorne, which can be seen as her concern of her competition with Tyrion rather than her caring for Myrcella. The same way Tywin neglected Cersei on the basis of her sex, Cersei neglects Myrcella, she perpetuates the abuse done to her onto her own children. I wonder what George has in mind for Myrcella's response to this behavior, now that she is in Dorne, a place that is much more progressive in gender equality in relation to the rest of Westeros, but has experienced a traumatizing event of her own due to Arianne's reckless plotting.
Cersi was one of my favorite characters on the show other than Tyrion, because everytime you saw her you have a sense of being on edge and wondering what her next move would be.
i think i learned more about myself through your understanding of a third party than i could have ever been told in therapy - not only have you sold me on buying and reading the books, but you have enlightened me as to the dark sides of my character
Just found your channel and I am looking forward to watching more of your content. Please do the psychology of Dany, Catelyn, Ned, Sansa, or any other GoT character
I think Myrcella represents the more innocent naive side of Cersei. She attaches a sort of purity to her that she doesn't want to see tainted especially considering the similarities of their circumstances with the arranged marriage. Its funny that her and Ned have that sort of parallel that their love for their children makes them shelter their kids from harsh truths.
Thank you for all your videos. I started out watching your videos on the characters from The Breakfast Club and have continued to enjoy the character analysis from GoT.
This was so incredible and thorough. I pride myself on being a person who pays attention to detail but *this* deep dive/character analysis managed to show me things about Cersei that I’d missed when just watching the show. I’d love to see one on Joffrey & one on Ramsey Bolton- like what made them be *SO* evil, *SO* twisted & *SOOO* depraved? Great work, new sub here man! 🍻
Cersie is an underated character (fictional yes, but more real than most of the other characters) She's a daughter, a mother, a sister, a queen, a victim, a villain, and a lover. She doesn't survive the show, but she doesn't die alone. She dies with the love of her life, her brother which is a victory in a way to all those who hated her for that love. What's more interesting to me about Cersie is she not only loved her children fiercly and her brother passionately, but she also loved her mother so much that she hated her other brother blaming him for her mother's death the same wait Kaitlyn kept blaming Ned for cheating. Tyrion and Ned didn't deserve to be blamed, but sometimes love hurts and a person needs someone to blame. Cersie suffered more than people give her credit. They see the suffering when it comes to Sansa, but they rarely show Cersie compassion for losing her mother, her children, her throne, being humiliated by the Sparrows, and dying. They have no compassion for her because she was the Queen so she was instantly hated. Makes a strong case for why Esther of the bible did NOT want to be Queen. They say with great knowledge comes great responsibility, but I say with great power comes so much hate that one wonders if it's even worth it.
I feel like Cersie sees the glass ceiling and herself at the top just not able to break through and she will be damned if someone else gets on that same level and break through it. So every other woman is lower and can go no higher. The only person that could, was her mother, and Tyrion “took her away”. Cersie sees the world the way she thinks Tywin sees it.
27:00 Just to cause this prophecy is interesting, wanna say that this is more likely a double entendre alluding to the bastardy of her children. In Westerosi tradition, you marry in your house colours, and are buried in your house colours. Gold is closely related to the Lannister house, and so being buried in a gold shroud would indicate that they will die with it being known that they are no Baratheons. They will wear crowns, but die for/with their bastardy revealed.
I know there isn't a ton of material to work with on Robert, but I'd love to see a video on him as well, though I'd expect it to be a short one that relies on the show a bit more than usual.
42:20 Cersei's first remarks after she found out her daughter had been maimed were essentially "shucks, and she was so pretty, too". Then she immediately blames Tyrion for some reason. So much lack of empathy leading to literal torture and murder of those she views as inconvenient, useless, or adversaries. As well as viewing others not as their own individuals but as extensions and reflections of herself... the constant paranoia over virtually everyone, and the many rash, impulsive decisions with dire repercussions for her and the country- with a staggering lack of awareness of herself and the intensity of the predicaments she finds herself in. Quite a disturbed character and the last person who should have power, though of course masterfully written by our beloved GRRM.
Since you mentioned it specifically: shrouds are the cloth/garment a corpse was wrapped up in for burial. I always assumed the gold crowns were their blonde hair (but also if Myrcella also ends up a queen somewhere along the line, a literal crown for each too!) and that the shrouds would be literal too. A gold shroud for each dead golden Lannister child. It could be more metaphorical than that of course, but Maggy’s prophecies seem much more straightforward than say, the stallion that mounts the world, or to go north you must go south, etc. These breakdowns are so good, I’m loving all the ones I’ve watched so far. NUANCE! Yes! You nail the wide range of facets these characters have. Last: thinking good thoughts of your bunny. I can’t even say much more than that or I’m going to have some no longer with us pet related waterworks. 😂😭
I would love more videos like this about more families in ASOIAF/ GOT - especially the Tyrell family! Margarery was my 2nd favorite queen, or favorite queen without dragons I should say, and I loved her family and the dynamics of it !!
You are a smart man, I really enjoyed your video, and would love to see your throughts on Daemon Targaryan from HOT D, or maybe Rhaenyra? :) Please make more game of thrones content sir.
I am considering Hot D content, although I haven't read the book, so I'm not yet sure if I know enough to dive into it. We'll see how I feel once the series ends though
9:50 That argument can also be counteract by how we don't know how was the relationship Cersei had with her aunt. She might barelly meet her, maybe she thought her fate wasn't that different of hers since Genna was married to a Frey agaisnt her will (which even back then it was saw as a really bad marriage candidate), or she might thought Genna was still useless because she was "uglier" than her even if Genna was just older and gain some pounds.
She used to date the guy who played Bronn. You never see them in any scene together because it was a clause in their contracts: Lena wouldn't get anywhere near him
I just wanted to tell you this is the best analyse of Cersei I have seen Cersei resonate a lot in my soul i feel like her on so many points like she is part of me and i am part of her i have a lot of reaction/reflelctions in common with her of not all (adapt to the means of our modern world) its not in my habits to write comments or to thanks people but thanks to your great analyse of her i have learned a great deal of things about her of course but also about my self i now have a better understanding of why i do certains things and where it comes from like i said i have so many thing in common with her it was hard not to make parallels (maybe i should see a therapist) anyway thank you so much for your amazing work and i Hope you will be making more game of thrones videos
32:00 that idea that malara was thinking above her station is especially backward because lord’s paramount maring there children to there lords children is how things normally work in Westeros, it’s actually very unusual for lords paramount children to marine other lord’s paramount children. So this was definitely all in Cersei’s head.
A QUICK ADDITION:
It's a minor point and most of you won't care but when discussing Joffrey, I used the phrase "I don't wish to say this is all Cersei's fault"..which kind of implies that it is. I didn't intend to give that impression. It is never about "fault" or "blame". It would be a painfully simplistic (and often harmful) way of looking at anyone's difficulties to just brand someone "at fault" for it. It's always about understanding the dynamics which are NEVER just one-way. It's obviously just bad wording that came about from the free-form manner I record my videos in (also I was shivering from fever throughout the recording of this)...but because the bad wording could cause troubling implications, I wanted to try and correct that.
And since I'm here, I forgot to discuss at the end that another of Cersei's political issues is how resolutely she is focused on destroying enemies, rather than actually building anything. There is no sense of direction or aim beyond removing whatever enemies she happens to notice at a given time. Again, I think that says a lot about Cersei: someone idealising the power of Tywin and attempting to replicate the idealised version. Someone completely crushed by her own fears and insecurity and how that makes it incredibly difficult to look outwards at the future. People often buy into a leader's vision as much as the leader themselves. Tragically, Cersei is more caught up creating and removing enemies than she is building anything that anyone would want to buy in to. I think there's some Littlefinger quote somewhere about how Cersei desires power but has absolutely no idea what to do with it.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Thankyou for watching, and here is a link to my patreon and instagram
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Her and her husband just gifted me a bottle of mezcal. I work for a hotel and didn't even try to tell them I recognized them.
P🎉
😊
Lena Headey is such a dedicated actor, you can bet every little gesture, flick of the eye or tensioning of muscles is deliberate and thought through
Agreed! She is so different in every role.
According to her previous career she doesn't have much range. Perhaps she got the role because that's how she's played most of her characters.
She’s honestly so amazing! She definitely was one of the best actresses on this show
@@Eff_It nope,
Sarah Conner was no where similar to Cersei
@@daredevil6145 You're very literal, aren't you?
Marcela is the only woman in Cersies life she doesn't abuse. She mentions how beautiful she is. She says she is fragile and she desires to protect her. She is treating that girl the way she wants to be treated. She is projecting to her daughter too.
Her name is Myrcella. 😂
@@fagiolification11*Merselluh
@@Icarus-I37 No, it's Myrcella.
@@fagiolification11 **Murs'haela
Cersei kinda wants Sansa to be like her too . She actively counsels her
It amuses and trouble me how many people see Cersei as a feminist icon. Cersei only wants equality to women named Cersei Lannister.
I wasn't aware of that 😂 not the best choice of an icon
I don't think she wants equality for herself, she wants supremacy for herself. But an excellent point nonetheless. She's not at all interested in bettering the state of women in general.
She is a narcissist 100%…. But Lena Headey makes it hard to not fall in love with her!
Gatekeep, gaslight, girlboss
@@finncullen she is a mysoginist more than anything. In the books she is immediately jealous and scathing of all other women characters. She is the archetypal pick me girl.
Everyone talks about how Cersei loved her children, and I believe she really did. It is used by her and others as an excuse for her ruthlessness. Yet there is I believe a darker reason for her protectiveness. Remember in the prophecy Cersei will not be deposed and die until after her children are dead. So long as they are ok she's ok. Also you forget that Tywin in the show actually tells Cersei he doesn't listen to her more not because she's a woman but because she is not as clever as she thinks she is.
That's a really good point about protecting them in order to stop the prophecy. It seems such a clear point now you've said it, that I can't believe I overlooked it. Thankyou!
Your welcome 😃
But I also think, she’s not a clever as she thinks she is because she was never given a chance to hone her intelligence in her most formative years, and that was because she was a woman and denied access to most circles that would enable her to hone her raw talent
I always had the impression that if she had shown some kind of potential ,like dunno Lady Olenna , Tywin would have considered her; I nevew saw it as a gender thing in Tywin´s case. If anything, the books always gave me the impression that Lannister women have dominant personalities and are allowed more than in other houses. We see Joanna and Genna , and also there is Leona Woolfield (the book doesn´t say that she is a Lannister but her name and description fits, I could be wrong though) and her daughters.
In the book at least, it's debatable. She loves the idea of them, at least, but not necessarily them as people. Just as far as they can be seen by her as extensions of herself. Pretty much like how she sees Jaime as herself with a cock (and pretty much loses attraction to him after he stops looking like her)
PLEASE do one on sansa i feel nobody cares to do deep dives on her other than to call her stupid
Agreed
That girl is a survivor, just like her sister. For everyone that says Arya and Sansa are like oil and water, look closer. They are cut from the same cloth. One just powers through with a skirt and pretty words; the other, a knife.
@@jessjess23brooks89 I hate when the Fandom reduces Sansa down to stupid. She survived how she knew how. Even if she was good with a sword, we know that attacking all your problems doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to take a different approach. I'm interested in seeing how her political skills develop under Littlefinger in the Vale (if George ever finishes the books) because I think it will truly show her intelligence and resilience even more than she already has.
@@MissSimone02 Couldn't agree more! That girl is whip smart. She knows exactly what to say in a tense situation on the fly.
And if the fan theories are correct and Littlefinger has been slowly poisoning Sweet Robin, I don't think Sansa is going to appreciate it. Sure Sweet Robin is a bit of a little shit, but he is one of the few family members Sansa has left.
We all know Littlefinger better watch his back with his girl prodigy.
Also, George announced that Winds is 75% done! I have reluctant hope.
@@jessjess23brooks89 I have heard about Winds being supposedly 75% complete but I will withhold feelings until the publishers have it in hand. That's when I'll get excited lol 😆
But I do think the fan theory has some merit. Just a little. But it's also just that canonically, the women of the Vale (at least in the ruling family) have trouble having children. So I believe Sweet Robin being weak and frail might just be naturally occurring. I also think that Littlefinger is very aware that he doesn't have the full support of the Vale and killing sweetrobin instead of puppetting him would be more detrimental. And while Sansa is also related to the Vale she's the key to the North and more valuable as that, than just taking over the Vale. That's just how I feel about it though.
It's so lovely to see a character study of Cersei that reads as sympathetic (though not woobifying her) unlike what i tend to see in the fandom. You even explored a lot of stuff that tends to be overlooked like her sense of idenity also deeply reliant on Jaime (and not just the other way around), and how deeply lonely she is in AFFC and a lot of misconceptions about certain scenes such as the killing of Melara being motivated by her fear of the prophecy and not jealousy over Jaime.
I have to say though, she does not see Joffrey as always perfect, she minimizes his flaws extensively but she knows that he has them (during the walk of atonement she even expresses how she feels grateful at Tommen being the one she has to go back to)
No, I think I did probably simplify that in discussion, you're right it's not even technical that she sees him as perfect, more that that's part of her defence. She's not blind but she tries her best to interpret him in a favourable light
@@mylittlethoughttree I frankly find it's all rather disgusting and sickening. Cersei is a key example of why we shouldn't sympathies with Narcissists.
Hell, Don't even Empathize with Narcissists like Cersei!
@@shawnwarrynn8609 You can empathize with someone without excusing their actions. Cersei is without a doubt a terrible person but I do feel sorry for her but nor do I excuse her actions.
@@gregoryschweitzer1735 Perhaps, but maybe that's just precisely what people like Cersei want! And how they start to manipulate and even control others!
We don't know the personality of Joanna Lannister obviously but with the influence she had over Tywin I think if she had lived all the Lannisters would have been entirely different people. I think cersei could have definitely benefited from having a maternal figure and not having one really screwed her up.
I mean, in the books she presumably has her Aunt Genna around a lot, but I think by the time of Joanna's death, Cersei was already Cersei-enough that she wouldn't listen to anyone, then when Joanna died she turned that into 'you're not my mother so I don't have to listen to you' (based on how Cersei acts when anyone tries to split her and Jaime up I would guess that she probably didn't actually like Joanna that much while she was alive, but just idolised her after she was dead)
Well in the books joanna catches cersei and Jaime fooling around and separates them. But she dies not too long after so she wasn't able to kill the incest in the crib.
@@mappingshaman5280 wrong. It was a maid that caught them and told thier mother JOanna but then Joanna died a short time later
honestly, its debatable. Joanna could've made Cersei worse. i think the angelic dead mother/wife trope has tricked us into thinking its her death that made Tywin a monster but the timeline of events says otherwise. My take is that Joanna was Tywin with teets.
we do know some things about Joanna and its that In the battle of the Blackwater cersei tells sansa that it was her mother who taught her that "tears are a woman's weapon" and that we know that she covered up the incest between Jaime and Cersei. My guess is that its very likely that Joanna Lannister was as manipulative as Cersei but probably smarter and tywin saw her as his kindred spirit.
Who tywin is also tells us who he is capable of loving. he HATES anything that makes his family seem weak. thats his biggest character trait. he hated his own father for being too soft and too much of a people-pleaser. he hates his own son (who in every other way is exactly like him) for being small, deformed and physically weak. I dont think Joanna wouldve been so beloved by him if he felt she wouldn't completely approve of all his war crimes that he commits in the name of respecting the Lannister name. if She supposedly had influence on him then its not like he was telling her shut up, be silent and pretty and bear his children. she was his right hand woman. Joanna and Tywin were first cousins so theres no political benefit for tywin, a highlord and warden of the west to marry into his own family. This was true love and this all happened a few years AFTER he ended Houses Reyne and Tarbeck so Joanna cant even claim to be oblivious about what kind of man she was marrying.
Joanna was a Lannister and brought up as one. I wouldnt be surprised if she was a smarter version of Cercei tbh. Tywin loved her a lot and took her council. It is safe to say she may have had a similiar temperment to her husband and daughter but was intelligent unlike Cercei. I wouldnt be surprised if she would resent Tyrion. Her personality is basically unknown even though she is a very significant character as she and her death would really cause the family to be even more dysfunctional. I think too that Cercei was old enough at that stage and uses her mothers death as an excuse more then anything to be nasty. People seem to idolise Joanna but she coulda been just az heartless and ruthless as her husband. He married her over an alliance for a reason, she married him no questions asked a few years after Tywin ordered massacres. I would just be weary saying if Joanna was alive things would be different. They probably would be a bit different but Cercei was a narcissist from a young age and resented the fact she wasn't a male.
*Cersei's torture of Sansa comes down to one simple name: Lyanna Stark. Sansa was the living embodiment of the reminder of the woman 1st chosen over her (hence triggering her inner unworthiness) by her childhood crush Prince Rhaegar & her Husband King Robert. twice burned.* 🔥👸🏻🔥
Ooh good point!!
@@mylittlethoughttree I always thought of Sansa as the "good" Cercei; when Cercei looks at her, she sees the person she could have been if she made better choices. Sansa is a younger, prettier, *nicer* version of Cercei. Sansa's a walking reminder of all her insecurities so she torments her to feel better about herself.
@@MsDaydream3rCersei thought Sansa was a stupid and naive little girl she didn’t look at her niceness with jealousy she looks at it as weakness and she wasn’t fully convinced of it either
@@MsDaydream3r yes and no. i dont think its about choices because cersei's whole thing is how powerless she is. both she and sansa are powerless to change much about their circumstances so shes not regretful. afterall she had no choice in marrying robert or her fathers failed attempts to get her a marriage to prince rhaegar. but shes angry at sansa for still being naive because she sees herself in sansa as a young girl, marrying a prince/king. in her own twisted maternal way she thinks shes helping sansa by being cruel to her. she thinks shes enlightening sansa on the ways of the world by telling to shut the fuck up and put up with joffrey's abuse. in one of her chapters she basically says this saying that she "taught sansa so much about the world and sansa repaid her by killing her son".
lol wow how I didn’t think of that I know I’m late but yea 😂
I always liked that Cersei and Tyrion have more in common than they would admit. They both want to be acknowledged by a father that doesn’t treat either of them well, her for being a woman and Tyrion for being a dwarf, despite being better at politics than their golden brother and wanting to get even better at it. I don’t know if proper training might’ve made her better at navigating the throne. She wouldn’t have started the war that Joffrey did, I think. The show having a quiet moment where they bonded ever so briefly over having to deal with her son was so good. He swiftly ended any slight empathy she had with humor, but there was that brief glimmer of mutual understanding.
I think the 3 of them represent different elements of Tywin:
Jamie is the body.
Tyrion is the mind.
Cersei is the soul.
@@Zarolea Interesting.
Tyrion also gives her a sympathetic look when she is arguing with Tywin over being forced to marry again. When she says she is not a brood mare, Tyrion looks very sad for her, but she insults him shortly after, and the moment is over.
I didn't see Cersei being treated poorly by her father because of her gender, she was treated like most high born ladies of Westeros. She was raised to secure a good alliance, and she was often in King Landing's so she wasn't totally unaware of politics. Tywin disregard her later because she did a bad job as queen Regent and as a mother in general. It's part of why he wanted her to wed someone again, to get her away. For Tyrion it was almost the opposite, he was openly despised until he proved himself clever and able to be in charge.
Later she again does a bad job when she is in charge, she get herself taken as a prisoner few months after Tywin death, Tyrion is gone and Jaime isn't there neither. Cersei blames everything on her gender yet she doesn't try to grow out of that, she lean on her beauty, birth, riches and she keeps making bad decisions
@@dendenne4856 Fair points.
I just watched the first season, and I was always amazed at her facial expressions. When she’s alone, or deep in thought, she almost looks as if she’s in pain, as if she understands fully how futile her life is going to be. But then something, someone more young or more inexperienced or simply below her somehow(which is, let’s face it, everyone), steps in front, and suddenly that expression of pain and panic morphs into a sadistic, cold stare, like a cat suddenly realizing that it still has claws and will quite enjoy killing the mouse in front of it. It’s kind of fascinating to me how similar those two expressions are for her.
I think in regards to Mercella (dunno how to spell it) she was ignored by Cersei. But I also think she views her children as being all three made from her, since I do see her viewing herself and Jaime as the same being. I think her distraughtness over her daughter leaving was because that was what happened to her. Seeing her daughter be shipped off and betrothed to someone for political gain. Look at how she treated Sansa, I’m assuming she believes all young girls to be treated that cruelly by their host family’s.
I believe she views Joffrey as inheriting all from her, her strength and Jaime’s physicality which is why he is going to be “such a good king”. And I think she views Tommen as inheriting her weaknesses, her femininity and Jaime’s kind heart. He’s more like him than like Cersei and so she rejects him.
Joffrey is her as she should have been I think. Her strengths in a male body, her and Jaime finally combined into one perfect being. Their daughter gets ignored by her mostly because of her misogyny. I don’t think she’d have ever let her marry, honestly. And Tommen is where the “feminine” weaknesses in both her and Jaime combined so she hates
@@darthcarrots2581 To be fair, even Cersei was worried about Joffrey's ruthlessness. But, her bad parenting kind of set this scenario up. She spent his childhood making excuses for his terrible behavior and Robert, seeing his viscious behavior early on, responded heavy handed with fists or ignoring him completely.
Why she was so surprised when Joffrey stopped taking her counsil is beyond me. He would not come to heel for the mother who taught him ruthlessness and covered up his mistakes.
As our man Tyrion once said, "You can't put a leash on a dog, once you've put a crown on it's head."
@@jessjess23brooks89 Joffrey was also shown to have an overwhelming desire for his father’s approval, not unlike Cersei’s feelings for Tywin. And so he turned against Cersei the same way that Robert did, in a very similar way Cersei trying (and failing) to “embody” Tywin’s cold ruthlessness.
Yeah joffery was almost looks like Jaime but in tv show joffery is totally different:)
I actually think that for the narcissist that cersei definitely was, she tries to treat Sansa as kindly and with as much respect as she possibly could. she is a realist who t tries to educate Sansa while still being loyal to her son. I think she totally relates to Sansa, and for a cluster B personality, I think she des pretty well as a mother in law, considering her upbringing and alcoholism and the abuse she survived. '
I'm actually quite surprised to hear that Cersei hated Tommen so much. In hindsight, it makes so many of his actions in the show make much more sense. But I do wonder why they changed Cersei's actions towards him so much.
It always felt so odd how much she seemed to love him, but then as soon as he dies, she acted as though she felt no grief at all and seemed to think he betrayed her by taking his own life.
To humanize her Lena Heady made Cersei a much more human character
@@Argos-xb8ek
To be fair, plenty of real human beings are narcissistic parents. And they do tend to have at least one child who they make out of be the main scapegoat upon which they place a lot of their abuse. Cersei mistreating Tommen wouldn't make her less human as a character, it would just make her a much less likable human.
At least in the books Tommen was mostly ignored by Cersei until Joffrey's dies, and even then she is more concern about his place in the Iron Throne than his feelings and needs.
@@nidohime6233 So she repeated exactly what her father did to her, which honestly just makes her more realistic since that’s such a common generational trauma scenario.
Tomen did betray her by selling out the crown to the religious fascist bigots
Everybody hates her. It’s because of the great talent Lena Headey is. Her ability to deliver a performance and deliver the dialogue. Just, every little mannerism. Every little facial expression. She nailed playing a antagonist. A lot of actors fall flat. Lena was awesome.
I think having Tommen kill her would certainly be a nice parallel to Tywin being killed by his own son because of the hatred he put his child through. She would become like him, just as she always wished.
That didn't happen though
@@terintiaflavius3349 What do you mean "didn't happen"? The series isn't over.
It could happen, but I think that was part of George's footnotes for the story that made it into the show. Tommen's arc was that he never made his own decisions, having everyone else make them for him. And in the end, when he has nothing left, he makes his own decision for the first time in his life, in ending it.
Tommen is also a valqonar/little brother and would fulfill her prophecy
But the maggy the frog prophecy states that all her children die before her so Tommen couldn’t be the valonqar. I know prophecys are made to have a different interpretation and Tommen killing her would be a good twist
I also think Cersei's attraction to Jaime is partially born out of the fact that Jaime is the only man who really treats her kindly. The only other man she really loved was Rhaegar, a man famous as a kind and charitable man who sang to the commonfolk. Cersei had that fantasy of becoming the Queen to a kind and loving King. She wanted to be a mother. She was happy about that part of the prophecy. She was enthusiastic initially about marrying Robert, but he beat her and r@ped her and never let go of Lyanna. Cersei gives up Jaime when she has a chance at a relationship with Rhaegar, and later Robert. Then when those relationships were ruined by Rhaegar's rejection and Robert's abuse, she returned to Jaime. Cersei feels worthless because she is a women. Cersei hates other women, yet she is constantly treated like an object by all the men around her. Cersei clings to the only man that treats her like a human being. Yet she wants to be more than the role she is forced into. She controls Jaime because of her need for him, but also because he grants her power. Cersei is the perfect foil for Sansa in a way, both were little girls who dreamed of being queen to a chivalrous knight, but their dreams are smashed. Sansa eventually learns to become strong, to understand that the world can be cruel, and how to navigate that world. Cersei descended into bitterness and hate. Cersei is a victim, and she victimizes everyone else around her because of it. In her own twisted way, Cersei is Sansa's mentor. She teaches her that her naivety is dangerous and tells her what knight's are capable of. She does enjoy that horror and shock she inflicts on Sansa. Cersei craves control because she never had it. It's why she is the way she is with Jaime. Jaime is her knight in shining armor, but he is HER knight. He belongs to her in her mind.
Amazing. So true
"he beat her and r@ped her and never let go of Lyanna"
Uh, no? He hit their son who cut open a pregnant cat to see its kittens, and his wife when she started making threats to killing Sansa/Arya, the daughters of his brother. It's morally reprehensible but I don't think you can call what is essentially a medieval king banging a queen who hates him r@pe (even though morally we know a wife has the right to refuse sex and doesn't deserve to be forced by her husband. We also know Cersei kept their sex to a minimum and often 'handled' Robert with her hands, mouth and thighs, and Robert was often so drunk he didn't notice).
I'd say her attraction to Jamie is that they're near identical twins, and being a power-bottom with Jamie is about as close as she's going to get to being a man. I agree with you about the foil between Cersei and Sansa though...the key difference seems to be that Cersei had a ruthless father who provided for her, and Sansa had an honourable father who failed to save her and left her to fend for herself and learn the game in a way Cersei never had to.
@@Nystariii Her having to "handle him" in other ways is still being assaulted, and that didn't work every time. He stumbled into her bed in a drunken haze many times. In terms of how you interpret Cersei and Jaime, that is entirely subjective, so if that's your interpretation then good for you. I think more things went into Sansa and Cersei then just their fathers, but you are right about their influence being massive.
I disagree slightly. With the flashback to the prophecy you saw that even at a young age Cersei was entitled and spoiled. Demanding the witch tell her a prophecy or suffer consequences for refusing her. Cersei wasn’t a sweet romantic girl that saw her aspirations crushed by adulthood and the men around her, she was always a vindictive little bitch, beginning with Tyrion’s very existence for “causing”their mother’s death. Tywin and Cersei’s hatred of Tyrion is irrational because women die in childbirth all the fucking time. It is a crapshoot every time a woman makes it if she will carry a baby to term and survive birthing it. Of course you could argue some of Tywin’s anger comes from his suspicion that Aerys might have sired Tyrion, but Cersei has nothing but “he killed our mother”, when that is what babies sometimes do to their mothers.
You could make another argument that Tyrion is hated by Cersei because it is a male that killed their mother, and she has a chip on her shoulder for being a woman in a man’s world, but tough shit.
Her marriage wasn't abusive at all it was normal, idk what y'all are on about
A little off topic, but I think the "Gold will be their crowns, Gold will be their shrouds" could possibly hint at the storyline with Dorne trying to declare Myrcella Queen over Tommen. If that goes through, all her children will die as kings or queens
Oooh that's a fun thought!
This is hands down the best Cersei Lannister analysis I've ever seen.
This, alongside those you did with Tywin, Tyrion and Jaime are masterful.
I liked it because you treated her with empathy and as tragic (which I've always seen her as, as a poor wretched soul).
Yet you're not afraid to call her out when the many horrible things she's done pop up.
Yeah, I try to empathise with everyone BUT empathy doesn't have to mean excusing, ignoring, or acceding to a person's bad traits or behaviour. A lot of people seem to think it's one or the other. I suppose it can be difficult to manage both but often worthwhile.
I'm rambling, thanks for the kind words, glad you enjoyed it ☺️
@@mylittlethoughttree Well, I think Cersei may have been fake to Myrcella.
I must clarify the way I see Cersei is a Frankenstein mix of her book and show self, which are not the same, but I like to see her in a way that takes traits from both.
My idea is that Cersei lied, manipulated and aimed to control her daughter just as much as her sons. We may have never seen it on-screen or on-page because the writer or screenwriter didn't consider it worthwhile to include it.
But let's say that they are real or that they exist outside of such limitations.
I think Cersei would see Myrcella as a mirror of herself and would project herself onto her. She wouldn't love her daughter for who she is, rather thinking Myrcella is a copy of her.
I also believe (or like to believe) Cersei would see her as perfect and as a fulfillment of her desires. Myrcella would be as brave as Jaime and maybe Cersei would in her mind replicate the lost love and pain of Joanna with her. I don't know how to explain it, but I think she would make a story in her head of how much of a good mother she is, watching her relationship with her daughter as what she could never have with Joanna. An idealised version.
Personally, I also feel like Cersei would see her as perfect or flawless, since admitting otherwise would make her herself by association less than goddess-like.
All in all, I think she mostly would be a horrendous, manipulative mother to Myrcella. Emotionally cold (except when she's feeling emotional and needs reassurance or to feel supported) and treating her like a pawn or a pair of shiny shoes. As something that builds up her own power (she can marry her off to someone she sees fit), as the heiress to her beauty.
Sorry for the comment, but one of my favourite things about the Planetos universe is parent-children relationships. Especially how they snowball into each generation.
I do find it interesting that Cersei complains about Tywin treating her like a broodmare and leaving her love-starved, ignored and feeling abandoned. Yet she repeats the same trauma in her kids.
She treats Joffrey like the almighty lion that will preserve her legacy, much as Tywin did with Jaime. She disregards and sees Myrcella in a very superficial way (or again, I would expect that from her) when she constantly complains and rages about Tywin doing this to her.
And she treats poor Tommen with pity, is domineering towards her last child and barely sees or recognises him at all, outside of his role as Joffrey's bannerman/throne holder/window from which to grasp at power.
It would be interesting to see how her motherhood would affect the three of them individually, because her rearing style would definitely twist them all 3 in different ways.
I think it's interesting that each of Tywin's children think that they're his "true heir," and yet none of them share his most distinctive character trait: his obsession with the legacy of the Lannister name. And even as they strive to be him while not really understanding him, they never stop resenting him.
The core of the Lannister family right here in a nice concise comment
Tyrion and Cersei, sure, but I don't know if Jaime is that dead set on being Tywin's 'true heir' the same way the others are. At the very least he lacks their ambition
I had a narcissistic misogynistic father and I still struggle with internalised misogyny. We’ve been no contact for 6 years or more but a younger, different version of me, under the most terrible of circumstances, might never have gotten away. It was easy to idolise a charming arsehole like him. So, this assessment of her relationship to her womanhood and other women seems pretty believable. I didn’t even realise I felt worthless, I just accepted that my position in the wold was what he believed it was. The way teenage boys treated me in high school just confirmed it all. If I didn’t have an awesome, intelligent mother, I would’ve been screwed. I was never really into Game of Thrones but I identify with her character in a way. She’s oddly relatable in a screwed up kinda way.
That's great to hear how you've moved forwards! It can be incredibly, incredibly difficult, even with a good mother supporting you. She is relatable though, sometimes I think there's nothing healthier than relating to a villain whilst also stopping to recognise their flaws and how you're different
@@mylittlethoughttree Thank you, yes, I’m much happier and better off now. I agree, they show us how important our choices are. 😁
Her character is insanely relatable. As a woman, born in a conservative country, women can't go about anywhere they want like men do but thank god, we have internet. The exposure we get because of it changes everything.
I just love that these deep psychological profiles are possible, with the wealth of information that G.R.R.M. gives us, and the thought he's put into his characters. I'm one of those people who doesn't mind if he never finishes writing the series, because I'd rather have the quality of the material that we already have, than a rushed ending. He's inspired so much thought and analysis, and your series on the Lannisters is seriously one of the best I've seen.
A narcissistic daughter of a narcissistic father and a mother of a narcissistic psychopath. She was only able to feel the narcissistic kind of love towards Jaime who she saw as part of her and her children that she also saw as her. And how she showed that what she hated most were the parts of herself she rejected. honestly this was portrayed so well.
Cersei's feelings for Myrcella, I think, are expressed pretty well in the show after her death is revealed for her. "She was nothing like me at all...no spite, no hate. It made me think that, despite all the horrible things I've done, that if I could've produced such a lovely child that perhaps there is some good in me too." or words to that effect. Doubt the books have that, and that it was an addition in the show, but it actually works pretty well from the points of view that a) She probably neglected her the same way she herself was neglected, however while she was still a teenage girl Cersei could still look at her daughter in such a way (precisely because Myrcella doesn't have Cersei's resentfulness of being born a woman that would make her stand up to her directly), even if Myrcella's actual thoughts on Dorne might in the end turn out to be like in the show - that she really doesn't want to go back to her neglectful power-hungry mother.
And b) it makes sense she would view her daughter like that, because her existence in the end helps her sleep at night a great deal, with the words she uses there - the horrible things she does, she does to protect her daughter too so it's not all because of her selfishness that she seeks power, it's to protect those she loves!...even if she does neglect them horribly by doing so. So if Myrcella ever were to die well...that chief excuse or reason (of protecting the one remaining child she'd feel nothing but positive thoughts of) is suddenly gone and it won't take long for her in the book to go to extremes like blowing up the Sept in the show.
Book cersei gives no genuine fucks about her children, she treats Tommen like an object and virtually never thinks about Myrcella, and her love for Joff really only stemmed from her love with Jamie (which in itself stems from her self-obsessesed narcissism because they look/looked so much alike-i.e. she sees herself in Jamie and loves only herself)
One of the things I've always found excellent of Lena Headey's performance was that, despite her being an incredibly attractive woman, I have never, not once, thought of Cersei as attractive. We are told that she is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, but that facial expression that Lena permanently keeps on Cersei's face does a perfect job of making her not appear attractive, despite literally being so. It's so fitting for the character too, that her face should be off-putting, as that better reflects her inner beauty, or lack thereof.
That's insane 😂. I thought she was so pretty and graceful. If my sister looked like that just call me Jamie and be done with it
This is so real ! The constant disgust, disapproval, lack of respect, etc. was always present in her facial expressions. Also call the authorities on the other commenter who says he would be like Jaime if given the chance xoxoxo
re: Tywin's teachings and Cersei's learning, recall that Cersei remembers his lessons only through what she overheard Tywin tell Jaime, ex. love cannot warm your home (paraphrasing)... even TYRION has "known from long experience" how Tywin and Kevan operate in councils, while Cersei was not at councils until she was Queen Regent and Tywin was Hand of the King
this is VITAL to understanding Cersei's role in the Lannister family dynamic: she is the sole child that Tywin never prepared and never disowned, and she ultimately does the most damage to his legacy by destroying it from the inside
Tywin, too, treats his children as extensions of his will: Tyrion was his legal heir but Tywin would flout the law to deny him his claim; Cersei as regent was of higher authority than Tywin but he still would force her to marry again and leave the council; Jaime swore sacred oaths as Kingsguard but Tywin would again aim to flout the law by intending to remove him from his position as Lord Commander then disowning him when he refused
and so, Cersei's genuine love of her children becomes conflated with her viewing them as extensions of herself - it is not one or the other, they are pathologically merged
Cersei is an AMPLIFIER who takes Tywin's Lannister superiority and exaggerates it, to the point of great self-destruction because Tywin failed to prepare her for rulership: he raised her as a pawn, so once she became queen with ultimate power Cersei continues on thinking one move ahead, a queen who plays as a pawn because that is all Tywin instilled in her
its incredibly tragic because Cersei DOES have intellect (she eventually correctly deduced who murdered Joffrey and why, for example) but she lacks judgement (setting up Margaery for legal punishment as a queen, little realising that she herself is ALSO a queen who can equally so face those exact punishments)
Cersei is embodiment of all the flaws inherent to Tywin's ideology and methodology, and it is entirely purposeful on GRRM's part as critique of Lannister superiority: even if Tywin were to perfectly recreate himself in an heir to his legacy, his utter disregard for his daughter on basis of sex means that someone like Cersei, who destroys the family from the inside through her lack of preparation once empowered, is an inevitability...
Joffrey also becomes an inevitability as Tywin not preparing Cersei means she cannot prepare Joffrey
that is the reason Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey all appear together as shades under Casterly Rock in Jaimems weirwood dream
myrcella is described as being the perfect little lady. she's as beautiful and kind as tommen but is also bold and witty but isnt soft or weak and is strong so she isnt scared of joffrey. she has all of the good traits of joffrey and tommen, (willfullness and strength but also kindness and gentleness) without all of the cruelty or weakness. She is everything cersei SHOULD want her children to be but even Cersei overlooks myrcella because shes a girl. Cersei is incapable of seeing how much more suited to the Iron Throne Myrcella would be than her brothers ironically for the same reasons she felt neglected by tywin, because theyre women.
I love Cersei's POV chapters, mainly because she's just such an awful, insane, delusional person. It's so fun to read. I find all the Lannister siblings stand out to me in the books. I think all the childhood trauma made them more interesting characters lol Thanks for the breakdown! It was very interesting 🙂
Me too. Out of all the the chapters, hers is the ones that i read the most. Hers and Jaime cause i love him
@@misabelrodriguez1163Jamie just might be my favorite character. It’s between him and Tyrion.
I really do think that some of Cersei's characterization is based on some of the real world misogyny in some ways and how it manifests in some women/girls (in an extreme way). I myself spent my early years in a very religious community that used words like "servant, subordinate, underlying, weak, sneaky" etc. to describe the girls and women. So I mean Of Course many of them said they wanted to be boys 😅🤣 why would a person want to be those negative things? That type of environment of course would promote some feelings of internalized misogyny. On the flip side, it's also interesting how the narrative seems to note that Cersei seems to attribute all of her problems rooted in this misogyny instead of owning up to her own missteps. Perhaps this is Martin's way of showing how yes there are misogynistic or unfair systems in society but also people can get lost in their own victimhood mentality in a way that makes them lose objectivity? Or perhaps I'm overthinking it
you're lying
Hmm, what religious community did you grew up in? I myself grew up in a religious community and has never been subjected to such words. In fact, most of the concepts I grew up in as a woman revolves around themes of "Heart of the family" or "Pillars of society" or the famous saying in my country "Ilaw nang Tahanan" which means Light of the Household. It greatly helped me with my confidence as a woman growing up, specially when the most celebrated saint in my religion was a woman. I guess It really just depends on the community and the culture. I definitely see more misogynistic rhetoric in the western religious scene, which makes me think that the problem stems from the culture of that country itself.
Spot on. Girls raised in misogynistic societies / households will often have some type of gender dysphoria or just wish they were a boy so that they could be seen as human
@@michaelfetter5413 i wish, but no
@@pineapplesonpizza7726 I spent my early life in a religious cult that had roots in Christian Fundementalism originally, but had drifted into very controlling and abusive doctrine by the church elders. I no longer associate with those people from that part of my past as it was traumatic..
Cersei has a very toxic relationship with the power she covets. The Lannisters based a lot of their reputation on terror. They stepped on people to make a point and they sort of relish it. There is a reason the "Rains of Castamere" is their theme song.
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"Cersei has a very toxic relationship with the power she covets" uhhhh Females in general have a toxic relationship with power...clearly.
I've always thought Cersei's favourite was Mycella, she lost her mother at an early age and this was her chance to get that pure maternal love back in her life. It's interesting that Margarey is how Cersei could have been if Tywin had raised her as his equal. She is a fascinating character, everyone loving how she looked but Jamie was the only person that loved her for her.
Would love to see the phychology of the Stark family
So would I, they seem like a tight knit family but there are some complexities
I would love one for Catelyn, who manages to be a good and bad mother depending on the kid.
This was such a great video. It's very interesting to explore the way she idealizes Tywin and how that builds into the way she tries to act politically. Great as always.
I belive Lena Headey said in an interview that she thought Cercei wanted to be Jamie.
4:00 I have to point out, that no-one would've listened Daenerys if she didn’t have dragons. And you can see how both Stannis and his little brother treated Caitlin: She is a messenger, using the words of her dead husband, so she is heard. Caitlin had power because North men were fighting in the south, where she was born. And Robb wasn’t married yet.
Noble women (who aren't Dornish or from the North), do get the short stick in Westros: Their only job is to give birth, look pretty, and pray for the Faith of the Seven.
So true, if she wasn't the dragon with dragon and the ability to not get burned by fire. Nobody would give her shit. Dothraki followed her because of the fire thingy and unsullied were just emotionless servants to a master.
Tyrion cares a lot about Myrcella and Tommen, I would even say that he loves them dearly. Since Cersei has been so focused on "her golden boy" she has in many ways ignored her two younger children. But with Joffrey coming into his own, Tyrion knows that Cersei might shift her attention to her younger and more easily led children. Especially Myrcella who is to "become a woman" which would make her a prime target for Cersei's misogyni. Myrcella will also be courted by the highest lords of the land while Cersei fades out, which certainly could make Cersei mad with both jealousy and hate against the system that mistreated her. And the only person she could take that out on would be Myrcella.
I'm of the firm belief that Tyrion "shipped off" Myrcella to Dorn because that is the only place she would be outside of Cersei's reach. It was also a smart political move, but I think that for Tyrion the safety of his niece actually was his main concern. Better that Cersei would blame him and hate him even more, than seeing that hate aimed at someone he cared deeply about.
Also, Dorne had a much better situation for womem than Westeros did. I'm not saying they were wup wup progressive, but women did have more rights and respect in Dorne than Westeros.
I don't remember where it's mentioned, but Randyl Tarly clears up Maggy the Frog's fate. Seems she eventually relocated to the Reach, but continued doing her prophesies until Randyl lead a force to burn her out of her cottage. She died inside.
Please do Brienne of Tarth next as she too has deep seeded issues involving sex and gender. Indeed she even slipped up once and claimed to Jaime that she was her father's only surviving son, which Jaime caught and commented on. There are some parallels between Cersei and Brienne in there and I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I thought Maggy the Frog was the foreign woman the founder of House Spicer brought over from Essos as wife? I don't remember the bit bout Randyl.
@@nunyabiznes33 I think there's conflicting accounts. I also recall something from Taena, suggesting that "Maggy" was actually "Maegi".
I think she sees Marcella as her own lost innocence and the good parts of her.
This was a fantastic watch! I think another reason why Cersei hates Margaery so much has to do with what you brought up about Tywin isolating Cersei from any sort of mentorship/bonding, political education, etc. and the added trauma of Johanna dying when she was a child. Cersei sees this other, younger Queen, who not only is involved within her family's political schemes, she's actively protected and supported (as opposed to Cersei and Tywin) by the women in her life. Margaery was taught how to operate politically in Westeros as a woman, something Cersei was denied, and I think the lack of female affirmation and love in Cersei's life would really exacerbate the resentment she feels.
Cersei needed to imitate Margaery Tyrell, while women cannot rule directly, they can rule through the men they accompany. this even goes way back to Macbeth, where his wife would speak thoughts into his ear, influencing him to make moves she wanted but ultimately hurting himself
I suppose Jaime and Cersei bear some slight resemblance to Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. I wonder if they were a influence 🤔 I've never thought about it
I mean.... that's NOT a good model either. There's a good reason why Arya is the main character instead of Sansa, since it's thanks to the Arya Starks of the world that women have rights. The Margaery Tyrells of the world are the "I got mine, so fuck you" type, since her altruism is FAKE (the people are starving BECAUSE the Tyrells manufactured a famine and then used the very food they deprived them of for PR points and it's why the Sparrow HAS the moral high ground, in spite of being a religious zealot, against Olenna et al).
@@irondragonmaiden im confused about how this orginates to the original comment they didnt say it was a good model, just the reality of the situation.
@@irondragonmaiden bro, we're talking about the world of Game of Thrones, not the real world. And Sansa was as much as a main character as Arya was in the books, and she has much more promise of succeding in the books than Arya does, as Arya to this day doesn't know how to play the political game, as Sansa is learning from Little Finger. Arya is a soldier, but there is only so much a soldier can do. And she isn't the feminist icon you think she is.
Tywin didn't put much focus on Cersei because she couldn't handle what was already expected of her. She couldn't manipulate Joffrey or bring him to heel. In fact, she made him worse. Tywin saw that and thought better of expanding her role.
True, but he didn't put much focus on her from the beginning anyway. As a parental figure, he should've helped teach and grow her into someone more capable
@@mylittlethoughttree Perhaps, particularly with an absent mother. But if you think about it, her incompetence goes back much further. It was her idea to have Jaime named to the Kingsguard thinking they would be together, but she didn't know her father well enough to predict how it would alienate him. Which is odd, considering legacy is Tywin's #1 preoccupation.
Tywin told us himself "I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you are not as smart as you think you are."
@@brianm7287 her weakness isn’t her lack intellectual prowess. It’s that she is constantly over reaching.
@@MylesKillis Yeah, she's not stupid, but she's inept.
@@mylittlethoughttree I wonder if the reason Tywin didn't focus on Cersei, aside from her being a woman, is due to Cersei looking a lot like Joanna and reminding Tywin of his dead wife.
What I always find interesting is the contrast between Brienne´s chapters and Cersei´s. Their thinking as opposite as their physical descriptions. After meeting Brienne in person, Cersei of course does nothing but to criticize her appearence; but in the end, Brienne has the strenght and training that Cersei desires.
*I don´t remember much of her thoughts on Myrcella, but i do remember a scene of Tyrion (rigth after escaping king´slanding) wondering: If Myrcella (under dornish law) decided to challenge Tommen for the throne , who would Cersei choose?
Thank you much for analyzing Cersei! She is both my most loved and my most hated character from any story. Cersei means a lot for me personally and helped me through darker times as I see many parallels between me and her.
1 | Tywin's True Heir
I agree! Especially that you mentioned the lack of her mother as a role model for femininity is a rare point when Cersei's character is discussed. I find this point very important and often missed!
2 | Jaime
This is a better take on Cersei's relationship with Jaime than most I've read! So many people just simplify everything into a very simple version of narcissism. But you really missed an important point, I think. Regardless of the source of her love for Jaime, she learns at a very young age that their love is not accepted and seen as disgusting. She keeps trying to imagine herself with other men (Rhaegar and later Robert) but she keeps coming back for Jaime, always knowing that she can't live out her love openly. Her love is seen as something evil. This damaged her severely. I've never heard or read anyone seeing this besides me. George doesn't write about characters who are defined by just one trait, like you kind of interpret Cersei with her narcissism.
3 | Robert & Rhaegar
18:32 I really wouldn't say that just because her narcissism play a role, her love for Jaime isn't true or honest. Many circumstances can fuel love, true love.
4 | Maggy The Frog
I like that you mentioned Jaime's part here! Also a good explanation for why she twisted Tyrion's penis. 36:14 How did you get that impression? Why do you think that she sees Joffrey as an extension of herself? It's an explanation that would fit with everything but I can't see any proof for it.
5 | Gold Shall Be Their Shrouds
I think her kids are much more metaphors for how Cersei is/could have been than extensions of her. She is cruel, like Joffrey. Joffrey is her current state, this is why she likes him most. Myrcella is how she could have been if she had embraced her femininity differently. She's fond of her, but her femininity is figuratively taking away from her by Tyrion, just like Tyrion killed her mother who could have been a role model for her. Tommen is what Cersei could be if she were able to redeem herself. Of course you have to consider that Tommen is very young, so you have to estimate how Tommen would be as an adult. But Tommen is so to speak Jaime in his redeemed form (and therefore the same for Cersei). For various reasons Cersei does not want to change. This is why she is so critical of Tommen. Maybe she would feel differently if Tommen died? Maybe this could be a reason for her to redeem herself.
6 | Downfall
I really hope for a redemption arc for Cersei. It could even end dramatically for her!
Myrcella is truly admirable. It’s one of the very few characters who aren’t afraid of Joffrey and confronts him when she sees or hears some of his BS. She is assertive and strong for that. And it’s not a façade as in Cersei, to hide weakness. Her strength is real. Pitty it wasn’t enough for Cersei to see that you can be strong “in spite of being a woman”. You can show strength without needing to fake it.
I don’t think she is disregarded for being female. She is disregarded because she’s a secondary character and George R. R. Martin wasn’t interested in exploring her as such. Especially from the moment she’s sent to Dorne, far from KL. What a shame, though, I know. She seemed to be quite a likable character
Lena played the part very well, but I think she made Cersei a lot more relatable and likeable than book Cersei. Book Cersei was just genuinely an asshole, even to her children like tommen too.
Please do the Starks next - I think they are way less straightforward as they seem on the surface.
After Tywin died, Jamie was still a kings guard and Tyrion had lost all his claims because of the death sentence. So by the rules of primogeniture she was lady of the rock right?
Yeah she was. I think Kevan even says as much
Nope an uncle comes before a female niece.
@@αστρον No, it doesnt. Jon Snow said regarding Alys Karstark...
As an ftm trans guy, I didn't read Cersei as trans AT ALL. The main reason why is because she IDENTIFIES as a woman 100% of the time. She doesn't want to be a man, she wants the power and respect that men are given simply for being men. Notice she doesn't start doing more masculine things once her father dies or when she becomes queen. SHE SEES HERSELF AS A WOMAN, a woman in a society that is very unfair against women. And at the end of the day, that's the difference between a cis person and a trans person. Not wanting to be treated like the property of men does not make you trans.
But you can hate yourself being a woman and hate women without wanting to be a man.
100% agree
Agree, I relate to her a lot in Thai matter but I am not trans.
This woman deserves an Emmy for her role
Was very excited to see this pop up on my feed, I’ve been looking forward to your take on her!
I was excited to see this! I really like how you discussed Cersei's nuances in length
These videos have been fantastic! If you do end up doing a analysis of other characters from SOIAF (even though none of them are as fun as the Lannisters), I’d really be interested in seeing a breakdown of Catelyn. She’s more complex and dark than a lot of people seem to notice.
I wondered the same about Qyburn about why he stayed and I kinda figure it's because this position by Cersei's side allows him the most freedom/resources to conduct his experiments/research which is ultimately the thing that drives him and is his ultimate life's goal and interest, to learn and experiment without fear of being arrested plus the addition of having unlimited funds to do his work.
Yeah that makes the most sense. Why he's still right by her side when dragons are literally at the gates, though? 🤔 He could've easily collected all his notes, recorded research, and shipped himself off to find a place again elsewhere
@@mylittlethoughttree True! I wondered how easy it woulda been for him to slip out because 1. He had knowledge of the castle's secret passages by the end because of the lil birds and 2. He Somewhat had franken-mountain under his .."control" maybe? SO escape woulda been easy enough for him. Maybe he truly believed they could win up until the end. Thanks for the reply, Qyburn has always peaked my interest!
29:46 she had a child, who went on to found house spicer and have two children. Rolph and sybell spicer, the former of which was made lord of castamere after the red wedding and the latter of which is married to the head of house Westerling.
This completely off subject of Cercei but I LOVED how Tommen looked at Maergery at the alter. That kid did a fantastic job well not that he had to try that hard Natalie Dormer is gorgeous but the look of oh my god you’re Soo beautiful! I love you! Everyone should get that look when they’re married. Just sayin.
This actually made me realize something. When I watched the show, I remember thinking that Joffrey's misogyny was due to Robert's influence. His mother was either ignored by him or not treated well by him and I'm sure Joffrey would have noticed this. However, it dawns on me now that Joffrey is that way because both of his parents are misogynists, albeit in different ways.
Cersei sees women as weak and pathetic (projection, yes, but still) and Robert sees women as tools to use for pleasure or venting. Joffrey's behavior embodies both of these outlooks.
I love your content and those character deep dives are just the best, please do more of them ✨✨
Cersei in the books had an Aunt Genna as a female influence, but she was married to a Frey and didn't live with them. Her two childhood female friends, who went with her to ask their future from Maggy the Frog. One named Jeyne ran away before Maggy said anything, just seeing her yellow eyes. She didn't hear her future, but ended up married to a knight and having lots of children. Melara, however, did hear Cersei's future, but told Cersei not to talk about it and it wouldn't come true. When Melara asked Maggy if she would marry Jaime, I never realized, but yes Cersei was possessive. Melara fell down a well not long after. Cersei was 10 years old, she never told anyone the prophesy and if Cersei remembers her screaming in that well then I think that it is pretty obvious Cersei killed her. The irony is that if Melara lived and married that would have negated the prophesy. But if Cersei killed someone at the age of ten then she was pretty much bad from the start.
As for Maggy the Frog, she lived and prospered. Her name wasn't Maggy, it was something foreign from Essos and hard to pronounce. She was called Maggy which was a mispronounced version of the title Maegi. She was married to a merchant and between his spice imports and her love potions they became wealthy. Her male children were Knights and her daughter was
Sibel Spicer who married the poor and badly needing a dowery Lord Westerling. They were the parents of Jeyne Westerling who married Robb Stark. Robb was wounded taking the castle and her mother sent her daughter to tend to him. Robb after hearing of Bran and Rickon's deaths slept with her as she tried to comfort him. People think that one of Maggy's love potions may have been used on him. This led to Robb's death as he broke his word to Walder Frey.
People think that Cersei always loved Jaime, she first seduced Jaime so that he would join the Kingsguard for Aerys. Tywin was trying to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and Jaime to Lysa Tully. Cersei didn't want to lose Jaime. She planned that he would join Aerys Kingsguard and then Cersei married to Rhaegar would have both with her in Kingslanding. She was always very possessive of lovers and her children. Cersei would have happily made a marriage with Rhaegar and later with Robert. But Rhaegar fell through and Robert was not susceptible to Cersei, Lyanna was the only woman he would ever love and Cersei hated him for that.
Gold will be their Crowns and gold their shrouds is a double meaning. They will have gold hair, but they will also all be crowned kings and queens before they die. In the books Myrcella is probably going to be crowned in Dorne, as they recognize female heirs in their culture. Littlefinger talks about the fact that the war of the Five Kings is going to be succeeded by the War of the Three Queens which is likely going to be Cersei, Margaery, and either Myrcella or Sansa.
I think there might be an effort to marry Myrcella to Aegon once it's clear he and The Golden Company are going to take King's Landing. I know Aegon is holding out for a marriage to Daenerys, but he might be persuaded that marrying Mrycella is the best route to avoid more war and claim legitimacy as his claim of being Rhagars son is likely going to be contested.
I discovered your channel from your comment on that Good Will Hunting video. This is the first video of yours I've run into and it's excellent. I'm so happy I found someone who has read these books and has put in the effort to properly psychoanalyze these well written characters. I would love it if you continued these analyses with others such as Catelyn, Brienne, or even Stannis.
42:35
I think you're on the money with Myrcella. It's meant to parallel Cersei's relationship to Tywin. Myrcella is seemingly a smart and kindhearted kid, very similar to Tommen, but Cersei never seems to care about her except that time Tyrion ships her away to Dorne, which can be seen as her concern of her competition with Tyrion rather than her caring for Myrcella. The same way Tywin neglected Cersei on the basis of her sex, Cersei neglects Myrcella, she perpetuates the abuse done to her onto her own children.
I wonder what George has in mind for Myrcella's response to this behavior, now that she is in Dorne, a place that is much more progressive in gender equality in relation to the rest of Westeros, but has experienced a traumatizing event of her own due to Arianne's reckless plotting.
Cersi was one of my favorite characters on the show other than Tyrion, because everytime you saw her you have a sense of being on edge and wondering what her next move would be.
i think i learned more about myself through your understanding of a third party than i could have ever been told in therapy - not only have you sold me on buying and reading the books, but you have enlightened me as to the dark sides of my character
Just found your channel and I am looking forward to watching more of your content. Please do the psychology of Dany, Catelyn, Ned, Sansa, or any other GoT character
I think Myrcella represents the more innocent naive side of Cersei. She attaches a sort of purity to her that she doesn't want to see tainted especially considering the similarities of their circumstances with the arranged marriage. Its funny that her and Ned have that sort of parallel that their love for their children makes them shelter their kids from harsh truths.
Thank you so much for this video, I was hoping for it for a while 😊
Thank you for all your videos. I started out watching your videos on the characters from The Breakfast Club and have continued to enjoy the character analysis from GoT.
Before the video even starts, I’m going with “A Cluster B Smorgasbord.” BPD and NPD no doubting.
This was so incredible and thorough. I pride myself on being a person who pays attention to detail but *this* deep dive/character analysis managed to show me things about Cersei that I’d missed when just watching the show. I’d love to see one on Joffrey & one on Ramsey Bolton- like what made them be *SO* evil, *SO* twisted & *SOOO* depraved? Great work, new sub here man! 🍻
I had no idea you also work a job whilst doing these uploads! They’re so detailed! Bravo!
Cersie is an underated character (fictional yes, but more real than most of the other characters) She's a daughter, a mother, a sister, a queen, a victim, a villain, and a lover. She doesn't survive the show, but she doesn't die alone. She dies with the love of her life, her brother which is a victory in a way to all those who hated her for that love. What's more interesting to me about Cersie is she not only loved her children fiercly and her brother passionately, but she also loved her mother so much that she hated her other brother blaming him for her mother's death the same wait Kaitlyn kept blaming Ned for cheating. Tyrion and Ned didn't deserve to be blamed, but sometimes love hurts and a person needs someone to blame. Cersie suffered more than people give her credit. They see the suffering when it comes to Sansa, but they rarely show Cersie compassion for losing her mother, her children, her throne, being humiliated by the Sparrows, and dying. They have no compassion for her because she was the Queen so she was instantly hated. Makes a strong case for why Esther of the bible did NOT want to be Queen. They say with great knowledge comes great responsibility, but I say with great power comes so much hate that one wonders if it's even worth it.
Also this is the most wholesome intro to a video I’ve ever seen
My favorite villain ever in the all of tv and film
Wow this was a really good video ! Would love to see more
I feel like Cersie sees the glass ceiling and herself at the top just not able to break through and she will be damned if someone else gets on that same level and break through it. So every other woman is lower and can go no higher. The only person that could, was her mother, and Tyrion “took her away”. Cersie sees the world the way she thinks Tywin sees it.
One of these on Jon Snow would be really interesting his life and traumas are very interesting
If you're going to stick with Game of Thrones I would LOVE to see Arya Stark and her revenge obsession.
I found this channel today and I'm already in love with it. I wish for the best for you, keep up with the good work friend :)
27:00
Just to cause this prophecy is interesting, wanna say that this is more likely a double entendre alluding to the bastardy of her children. In Westerosi tradition, you marry in your house colours, and are buried in your house colours. Gold is closely related to the Lannister house, and so being buried in a gold shroud would indicate that they will die with it being known that they are no Baratheons. They will wear crowns, but die for/with their bastardy revealed.
glad i stumbled upon this video it's soooo good thank you for your time and energy put in this!
I know there isn't a ton of material to work with on Robert, but I'd love to see a video on him as well, though I'd expect it to be a short one that relies on the show a bit more than usual.
I just finished re-watching the series. I'm still blown away by epic that show is.
42:20 Cersei's first remarks after she found out her daughter had been maimed were essentially "shucks, and she was so pretty, too". Then she immediately blames Tyrion for some reason. So much lack of empathy leading to literal torture and murder of those she views as inconvenient, useless, or adversaries. As well as viewing others not as their own individuals but as extensions and reflections of herself... the constant paranoia over virtually everyone, and the many rash, impulsive decisions with dire repercussions for her and the country- with a staggering lack of awareness of herself and the intensity of the predicaments she finds herself in. Quite a disturbed character and the last person who should have power, though of course masterfully written by our beloved GRRM.
Thank you for your videos. Could you do a character analysis on Chef Slowik from The Menu
Since you mentioned it specifically: shrouds are the cloth/garment a corpse was wrapped up in for burial. I always assumed the gold crowns were their blonde hair (but also if Myrcella also ends up a queen somewhere along the line, a literal crown for each too!) and that the shrouds would be literal too. A gold shroud for each dead golden Lannister child. It could be more metaphorical than that of course, but Maggy’s prophecies seem much more straightforward than say, the stallion that mounts the world, or to go north you must go south, etc.
These breakdowns are so good, I’m loving all the ones I’ve watched so far. NUANCE! Yes! You nail the wide range of facets these characters have.
Last: thinking good thoughts of your bunny. I can’t even say much more than that or I’m going to have some no longer with us pet related waterworks. 😂😭
I would love more videos like this about more families in ASOIAF/ GOT - especially the Tyrell family! Margarery was my 2nd favorite queen, or favorite queen without dragons I should say, and I loved her family and the dynamics of it !!
You are a smart man, I really enjoyed your video, and would love to see your throughts on Daemon Targaryan from HOT D, or maybe Rhaenyra? :) Please make more game of thrones content sir.
I am considering Hot D content, although I haven't read the book, so I'm not yet sure if I know enough to dive into it. We'll see how I feel once the series ends though
Cersei’s daughter reflected the good in Cersei. That’s why Cersei was heartbroken by her death.
9:50 That argument can also be counteract by how we don't know how was the relationship Cersei had with her aunt. She might barelly meet her, maybe she thought her fate wasn't that different of hers since Genna was married to a Frey agaisnt her will (which even back then it was saw as a really bad marriage candidate), or she might thought Genna was still useless because she was "uglier" than her even if Genna was just older and gain some pounds.
WOW, your best video yet. Love it.
Rarely do I leave a comment, click the like button and even let ads run start to finish. But this video deserved it.
Ah thanks!! It genuinely does make a difference, thankyou!
Amazing I would love to see one of Daenerys as well
She used to date the guy who played Bronn. You never see them in any scene together because it was a clause in their contracts: Lena wouldn't get anywhere near him
Not even in the books Cersei liked Bronn XD
Thank you. Waiting for the same video about Daynerys
I just wanted to tell you this is the best analyse of Cersei I have seen Cersei resonate a lot in my soul i feel like her on so many points like she is part of me and i am part of her i have a lot of reaction/reflelctions in common with her of not all (adapt to the means of our modern world) its not in my habits to write comments or to thanks people but thanks to your great analyse of her i have learned a great deal of things about her of course but also about my self i now have a better understanding of why i do certains things and where it comes from like i said i have so many thing in common with her it was hard not to make parallels (maybe i should see a therapist) anyway thank you so much for your amazing work and i Hope you will be making more game of thrones videos
I like these videos a lot.
i would LOVE to see you talk about sansa, though i know it's hard work
Amazing video just had to comment that ❤️🔥
The Hound and Littlefinger must be done next!
You should do Serena Joy Waterford
I have been waiting for this.
An análisys on the Baratheon brothers would be cool
32:00 that idea that malara was thinking above her station is especially backward because lord’s paramount maring there children to there lords children is how things normally work in Westeros, it’s actually very unusual for lords paramount children to marine other lord’s paramount children. So this was definitely all in Cersei’s head.