How Do ARROWS Fly?? (Tips for Improving Arrow Flight!)
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2022
- The "Rocketman" Darrel Barnette talks about how to fix poor arrow flight by understanding the basic principles of how arrows fly.
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As an aerospace engineer and bow hunter I have to say this is probably my favorite video of all time. You guys are awesome! Thank you for awesome, entertaining content.
As a mathematician I'll join with the other nerds here and say this is one of my favorite THP videos. Thanks for the disclaimer at the end to keep us all from going crazy too.
One of the top episodes on arrow flight. Rocket man does a awesome job of dumbing it down for us to understand! Keep up the great content! Thank you!
WOW!!! I just learned more about the dynamics of arrow flight in 50 minutes than I did in the previous 40 years combined!!! Great video guys! Thank you!
This aerospace engineer always loves hearing from the rocket man. Thanks Darrel!
Fun fact: There's a video out there of Larry Jones showing a friend how he painted his arrows to look like old wood arrows where they combined two different variety of wood with the heavier wood being in front, for more FOC.
It's funny people think that this heavy arrow stuff is a new, whacky idea, it's actually a lost common knowledge
Right?!?! It's stuff archers have done for a long time.
I didn't know how to explain that it was rear lift rather than drag as well, but from shooting and experimenting enough I came to the conclusion that for my more unstable arrows, add larger feathers.
Even back to my old compound bows, I shot heavy arrows when overdrawn and speed were the only thing people cared about. I took numerous deer 50 yards out even if my arrows did a 10-12 ft ark (my shooting was better than my stand placement...lol).
I'm new to archery, especially bowhunting. But I'm not new to history. It was awesome when I found out about all of these guys talking about heavy arrows. The thing that came to mind, when I first heard Troy talking about the Ashby research, were historical archers. Essentially, he just empirically confirmed what cultures around the world had known for hundreds or thousands of years. Relatively few cultures put much focus on having fast and light arrows.
As a flight instructor and a commercial pilot, I really do enjoy when you guys talk about aerodynamics, stability, torque, etc. Understanding arrow flight and experimenting with different arrow builds is a major reason for why I primarily bow hunt now. Thanks for sharing your information!
Probably wondering at what point the arrow goes through ETL😂
I'm at roughly 570gr total arrow weight. 225gr up front.
Very happy with them.
You can watch them fly all the way to the target very clearly.
If you see that you maybe pulled the shot you can run and move the target before it gets there so your always in the 10 ring.
Or you can just shoot a heavier poundage bow like some of us do and shoot 570-600 grain arrows north of 300 fps. Granted not many targets stand up for long with the kinetic energy momentum those generate.
@@caninphx Now that I'd like to see...a true 600+ grain arrow north of 300 through a chronograph, not someone guessing it's speed.
Everyone else can see its a joke right? lols
@@Tbowie13 I have seen 90lbs compound doing 314 fps
@@licensetochill79 I'm not sayin it's not possible. There are very few men who genuinely can shoot a 90# bow, and actually have business doing it.
I hung drywall all my life and worked in an archery shop, so I could do it, but never really saw the need to. If I were hunting dangerous game, I'd consider it, but my bows, (65# Trophy Hunter I've had since I was 12 (38 yrs now) a 75# Browning, a 70# Pearson Dagger, a 70# Mathews Vertix and 2 Predator recurves, one at 47# and one at 56#) have done me justice. All of em have done their fair share share of killin deer, hogs
and coyotes, the recurves even crows and pheasants. There's a few turkey in there too.
That was a serious knowledge drop! Thanks Rocketman, RF, and THP.
As a retired electrical engineer, I absolutely loved this video! I also saw your pervious podcast from a year ago and loved that one too. Great job!
35:48 -- Resonance is when you get a license and your license is cheaper than an non-resonance license. That is AWESOME!
Also as an engineer and an archery/novice bowhunter this is a great video. The explanation of the effects of drag vs lift on the arrow flight makes perfect sense to me now.
Not an engineer or mathematician or all that smart of a dude but this really was helpful to understand why you do certain things to your arrows. Great content!
Just stinkin' amazing guys!
Love how Zach was like the rest of us out here, just trying to hold to enough info to say, "I think I kinda sorta understand." 😅
Super episode. Congrats Rocketman, it was not easy at all for you to try keep it so simple.
Appreciate you all taking the time to do these information sessions.
Amazing and cleared lot of questions in my mind. As a scientist and medical professional it makes so much sense when you learn through the laws of physics. Great work folks!
I have shot dozens of bows and crossbows thru the years being mesmerized by arrow flight. This video has been an amazing journey. Somebody thru history may not have understood this science, but by experimentation, they stumbled onto combinations that worked. Thanks for sharing.
Whew...I'll never put all this information to use, back to the drawing board! Love what you're doing ❤️
Absolutely awesome. I’m going to rewatch probably multiple times. Definitely not boring to this THP fan. Thanks
Wow never heard any of the so-called pros discuss or talk about this. The truth is none of us have ever heard anyone explain how an arrow flies in such scientific detail. Next level stuff, watch the haters heads explode.
That's been my experience as well. I've never heard it discussed within the archery community. Fun fact, I gave this presentation formally at ATA in Louisville this past January. A few notable attendees were in the audience, but the total attendance was on the order of only 20 people out thousands of people in the archery industry that were at the show. So I decided, with Troy's and Aaron's blessing, to give it again here in a more casual setting, where tens of thousands of people can see it and learn from it. Thanks for your comment.
One of my new favorite videos by you guys!! Love listening to the WHY videos on arrow flight with the Ranch Fairy and the Rocket man! Thanks THP for awesome content, keep it coming!!
So much information. Glad it's being spread.
As a security guard and gardener I love to hear from aerodynamics and drag etc... Love it
Awesome video as always guys! Loving these technical videos
Eeeeeeeee love this arrow geeking!! Thanks guys!!!
Great info! Thanks for all the hard work to bring it to us.
I'll have to replay this again ( several times ) to get all the info straight in my head. Great stuff
Awsome video!! Great science and mathematics. I am a short statured guy and shoot a substantial shorter arrow. I just switched to a 125gr. 4 blade stinger and have switched to 4 inch turkey fletchings. Cant wait to put all this together. Thanks again!
Okay 😮! I’m at 14:51 into this post and my head hurts from all of this but these fellas have me convinced that this knowledge is somehow important to skewering Deer Hogs Bears coyotes and Turkeys! Oh Lord!
This is one of the most informative topics I have seen. Great effort and thank you.
Fantastic video! This is such great content that you find absolutely no where else. Sure it can hurt the brain for a few minutes, but truly understanding this stuff helps us know what we're doing and how we're doing it. Love it, keep it coming! And thank you!
Letting everyone know this is a scam if you happen to receive it too.
Great video lots of important info! You guys are the best keep educating us please get the information out there and improve our ever growing hobby and sportsmanship!
Great video! Well explained explanations of things we already new but didn't know why and new concepts I can play around with for arrow builds. The only thing I didn't understand was Warb's mis-matched socks.
Man, thanks you guys. This has to be one of the most important videos to watch for any bowhunter or target archer. Love it when knowledge conquers BS. Could you please define 'line of action' for drag?
There are two ways it's defined in the literature, both ways are coordinate system based. In the Wind Axis, the drag is inline with the relative wind, and the lift is perpendicular to the relative wind. So at small angles of attack (the angle between the shaft centerline and the incoming relative wind), the drag line of action is very close to lying along the shaft, and the lift is very nearly perpendicular to the shaft. At large angles of attack the drag is not in-line with the shaft, it is angled away from the body. The discussion here in this podcast episode focuses on small angles of attack.
The second way (and technically correct for calculating center of pressure) is to utilize the Body Axis definition - Here the Axial Force is defined to be along the body regardless of the angle of attack, and the Normal Force is perpendicular to the body. Both are useful definitions - typically airplane designers will use the wind axis coordinate system, while projectile designers will use the body axis system. I use Lift and Drag here only because it is easier to get the point across, and for small angles of attack Lift is approximately = Normal Force, and the Drag Force is approximately = Axial Force. Yes that's a lot to chew on, so here's a decent reference that may help:
www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0194.shtml
I hope that helps! Let me know if that is not clear.
D-
@@darrelbarnette3216 Awesome, thank you. I think you illustrated it well in the video but didn't really explain at that point that, and I suspect this is very important, at small angles of attack, the drag line of action is very close to lying along the shaft. And, as you pointed out - and very important as well - that at these angles the lift is very nearly perpendicular to the shaft.
Thank you for the link as well.
Appreciate your time in replying and the timeliness, thanks.
-mike
Best episode on all of this yet! Awesome information guys! Now we need some smart ppl to crunch the numbers and show us what the "Perfectly Balanced Arrow" would be, weight wise all around and arrow flight per Bow poundage/draw length. Been racking my brain ( And Shoulders! ) the last month with the SIRIUS test kits and broadheads, looking good so far the process works! Thanks guys this all has helped make myself and many others a better bowhunter!
I don't think it's possible to do. Too many variables.
@@bakters Has to be! The testing and calculations would be physically exhausting though 😆
@@codysimon1505 The calculations themselves may not be too bad to do. It's the variables we can't control for that make it hell. You'd have to guess on what the "average" perturbation may be (while most likely being very wrong) and do that multiple times, with the errors compounding on top of each other...
In practice, all you can do is overcompensate. A lot of FOC, lots of fletching, some helical and plenty of TLC.
Such is life. But then, if it was easy everybody could do it, so you'd likely find something actually difficult to challenge yourself, would you not? ;-)
BOINNNGGGG!!! and for years i've been getting smaller and smaller fletchings to "reduce drag" at the rear! I love learning new stuff about archery after being a bowhunter for forty years. A while back i learned from Levi's videos about how the twist of the string affects the natural rotation of flight, and how to bare shaft tune. Ended up buying a left handed fletching tool.
This was really interesting to me. Did you test this at all? Does left helical and bevel make a difference? Most arrows clock left from what I understand.
Thank you fellas for helping us understand arrow flight….Really enjoyed it, and learned a lot…
So much great content with an engineering process all wrapped up with an easy understanding...turn the knobs!
This is pure gold! Absolute friggin GOLD!
Great topic gentlemen!
Great stuff!!! Keep it coming!!!
There's 2 different types of clamps for fletching arrows. 1 Helical & 2 Straight. When using a straight clamp you apply the vane with an offset.
Zach, I went back to the slow motion of you shooting. You do appear to have a pretty firm grip but what I really noticed is how you punched that trigger lol. It was like a drive by 👊 😝
Good video guys!
Absolutely awesome video!!!
Very Insightful. I'd love to hear your thoughts on noise and increased fletch size.
Fantastic conversation. Thanks!
Excellent explanations.
Wow!! Just wow learned so much from this!! Great info!
Turn the knob, get some margin. Thank you for this, an hour of science plainly brought down to it's essence. You are all so generous with what you have learned from years of hard work.
Awesome job guys! Educational and funny 😁
I feel enlightened, Im a nerd and this was perfect for me to understand how to troubleshoot my arrow flight and stability. Thanks for the great content! 👌👍
Thanks for another awesome video.
More videos about this topic please. So interesting
Soooo good!! It couldn’t have a better closing!!
🤯
Were was this knowledge at 35 years ago
I remember shooting target with light points and seeing the arrow yaw in flight due to crosswinds...now I know why! Thanks!
Goodness, I wish we had engineering classes like this. Outstanding!
These summer series with rocket man and ranch fairy are so helpful to a newer bow hunter.
Hi guys going NM arrow hunting wish me luck after watching your vid last year gonna be tough!
Love the science here. Will have to re watch and take notes. Now I wish the advertise vanes with how much surface area they have instead of the the height and length.
Great imformation....Thank You!
This video just made my head hurt! This is absolutely great stuff and gives me ideas to "turn the knobs", but wow! Thank you guys, this is great. 🤯
Yess! love this high level stuff!
Does onX have a wind direction layer or a way to see what direction the wind is blowing and how many mph? And have they upgraded the map image at all?
very nice information guys
Great vid. Thanks
That makes a ton of sense as to why illuminated nocks change the flight of the aarow so much. My only question would be with the weight behind the "tail lift point"*(fletchings)* would they affect the center of pressure as well as the center of gravity?
My understanding from the video is both. The weight of the nocks would affect the center of gravity and their shape would impact how much lift they generated and the center of pressure.
Love this channel
Great video
Anyone who bow hunts should watch this. Fantastic explanation of how arrows actually fly, and why you should care about the complete setup. Deep enough into the physics without losing most of the audience. Sci comm done right.
I am a bit curious how crossbows compare with "normal" bows in terms of the resonance. It would seem to me the rails remove the bending of the arrow during shooting. Is there any research into this?
No research that I have found in the open literature - the rails don't hold the arrow down but they do limit side to side motion, so bending could still occur in the vertical plane away from the rails. I've wondered if you could have a bristle brush the full length of the rail to hold the arrow to the rail, which would likely help, but I haven't seen any manufacturers try that. I'm not up on the latest cross bow developments as things are changing so fast in that sector.
Thanks you guys this is great stuff. I do have a question. If you are shooting a single bevel broad head and using a helical fletch, do they both need to be turning the same way. If so how do you know which way the broad head is turning the arrow? Thanks Jeff Kelley
We have taken video of that exact situation. The broadhead will fight the fletching if the bh is trying to turn one way, and the fletching is trying to turn the opposite way. The bh will turn opposite of the bevel, so a bevel on the left side will turn the bh to the right.
My question is should you be shooting an arrow that has 4-6% helical offset or should you be shooting a 4 fletch arrow or should it be both?
Amazing video!!! I just had one question come to mind, is there a noticeable difference between a two blade and three blade broadhead as far as lift and accuracy goes?
Answering my own question... according to a previous video of the Hunting Public's with Fowler and Rocket man, three blade broadheads are easier to tune.
I wanted to ask the same question. If I’m understanding them correctly a 4blade broad head would have more lift than a 2blade broad head which would move your center of pressure back if making the switch from 4 blades to 2blades. But would also like confirmation!
Lift depends on the surface area. However, remember that lift is dependant on the surface area in the given direction. With a 2 blade, you only have a single plane. With 3 blades, you can make the tip symmetrical so that you get even lift no matter the orientation of the tip.
Assuming you have even surface area with a 2 blade and a 3 blade, your 3 blade is less reliant for roll in countering the asymmetry, therefore it is more forgiving to tune and less prone to sudden wind gusts on longer shots.
For penetration, 2 blade is a wedge so you get extremely good penetration where as 3 blade is like a fat nail that you have to forcibly hammer in. Each have their purposes.
In short, 2 blade is your short range through all and 3 blade is your long range broadside only.
Always great when rocket man shows up
Thanks guys. So what I get from this is in order to keep a solid single bevel broadhead for durability, you go with a more moderate grain broadhead (175 ish), and gain your FOC from insert, and maybe a screw weight (100+50) in order to reduce lift up front. A stiffer spine (9.8 gpi for my brand)and longer insert to reduce the flexing, and 4 or 5 degree helical fletching to match the broadhead bevel (3x6 grains of plastic for mine), and a 22 grain lumenok, will give me a 625 grain arrow in the bone shattering range, with a 20% FOC, and extra forward rigidity for penetration. The broadhead will be a fine line to walk, as it wants to be wide enough to do effective damage, but narrow enough that the tip angle is good for penetration ( especially at a slight quartering angle), and tough enough to last. I only wanted to go bow hunting, and now I am back in school, hahaha.
Great information, thank you for the expertise....I have a thought experiment related to left or right helical: as we have learned from numerous videos and experiments, manufactured rotation of the string (clockwise or counterclockwise) determines the 'roll' of the bareshaft with 90% (arbitrary percentage, but closely accurate) of bareshafts rotating left off the string at initial flight, if the arrow is fletched right and the arrow initially rolls left then has to correct to roll with the fletching, will that have an effect on the resonance and stability down range? I would assume that a left fletched arrow that rolls left off the string would stabilize more rapidly and be more stabile. I wanted to introduce that question as you guys were working through the flight dynamics because it was never brought up. Thanks for any input.
Have you guys seen the exodus cam guys video about arrow rolling or helical direction and it’s relation to the bow string? I need to watch it again but they narrowed down through testing how I think it was the direction of twist on the string is what controls the direction of the helical of the arrow?
Wow, I'm I the only one that is more lost after watching this video? I would love to try the heavier arrow and broad head. Problem is I've went to the few local bow shop close to home and every bow tech says the same thing. I HATE THE RANCH FAIRY and they won't help me. I like him and would love to try a different arrow setup but can't find help. I feel even more stupid after watching this video, so much to take in and all the variables. I'm from Missouri the show me state. So show me! Love the content, keep it up thanks guys!
Don't be too discouraged. People are just too closed minded to things different to "what works for them"
Exactly, and as a provider of a service they should help the customer with what there looking to do. I think they don't want to spend the time to do so.
Subscribe to his channel he has step by step in each video where you can get the front of Center heavy setup don't be intimidated. Rocket Man talks over 80% of everyone's head including myself. Bottom line is heavy arrow setups that he's preaching "that AT shows & some pro shops hate" is that heavy setup will do the damage you need to be done when you make that less than "perfect shot" that you need to kill the animal because no matter what kind of Arrow or bullet you're shooting it's all about what you hit in that animal.
Absolutely do not be discouraged, I made the step in that direction this year. Go to your archery shop pick out that arrow brand that your prefer, get them cut to your length and build them yourself. Troy does have a great step by step process like another person said to you and another thing reach out to him if you are having some problems and ask him questions. I sure did and he help me walk through it and get awesome arrow flight. His response are quick to. Good luck to you and take pride in something that you can build and harvest an animal with.
Keep trying and learn more on your own or from these guys. Never let a closed mind stop you brother!
Great discussion
I would really love to get with the rocket man and talk mathematics and nerd out. These are all the questions I have asked myself a lot over the years and wanted to understand the physics behind archery.
I think the next real question is, can we create something to eliminate part of the equation? I feel the next big thing in archery will be arrow material, Higher tolerances, and broadhead steel quality. Looking forward to what you help bring to light and how drastically this will change the archery community.
I would like to echo everybody who complimented!!! super episode! Very informative! Going to experiment with my arrows now!!!
12 minutes into video and I'm like........WHOAAAAAA!!!! Great stuff
"We ARE gonna go into that...people need to know!" 😂 reminds me of Bob Lazar talking about area 51! 😂😂👽
I think I got it from a line in The Chosen. I'll go check out Bob Lazar! Thanks!
So basically more weight up front F.O.C needs either 3° to 6° degree fletching or a 4 fletch more surface area. To maximize CP and CG.
Do you guys consider how a bare shaft rotates when released? Clockwise vs. Counterclockwise. I feel if it is rotating counterclockwise bare shaft you would want to go with left bevel and left helical fletching, right? And clockwise you would want a right bevel and right helical?
I was wondering how much difference this makes. I was told most bow strings are twisted right so most arrows clock left
Greatness. . . Every second of it.
Awesome video! Curious what happens with fletchings that are designed to achieve extreme roll rates (thinking Fire Nock vanes - the ones that use lift concept to generate roll)? Do these also lock into the bending frequency and resonate? Or are they able to accelerate through the bending frequency and escape the resonance?
So far as any research has shown, you won't be able to get through the bending frequency regardless of fletching type. Fortunately common vane angles are in the range of 3 deg, which stay well under the bending frequency.
@@DigtoDef really appreciate the reply. Has your testing included the Firenock Aerovane? Bringing this specific vane up because their claim to fame is dramatically higher roll rates than other vanes, without needing aggressive offsets. If you haven’t seen them, look them up. I’ve never put my hands on them, but the concept seems like it would generate way more roll than the typical vane.
How does adding fletch add to the how loud the arrow fly?
Rocket man🚀 the science teacher
When using a single bevel, will it shoot straighter if the broadhead is launched in the verticle position than if launched horizontally?, or it doesnt matter
I tend to think all else being equal, you want the two blade to be horizontal - I may get some flak for that, but here's my logic... If there is a crosswind at the bow, the vertical bh will respond to that crosswind, where as a horizontal bh will not. BUT, that also assumes that you've nock-tuned and the all the arrow shafts are bending to the left or right as well. If you haven't knock tuned and esp. if you are under spined, the bheads will be pointed all over the place and dispersion at the target will increase. Nock tuning essentially gets your arrows bending all in the same direction, unfortunately often times you don't know what direction that may be.
This is an amazing video
This is good stuff. Even for someone who doesn’t want to dabble into the heavy arrow stuff like me. I just want to shoot a 450 grain arrow with a fixed slick trick. I can take knowledge out of this. Vented broad head maybe less helical. Just play with it paper tune
I've been watching ranch ferry since before THP started changing their arrows. I'm also an engineer and found him very interesting as he explained to bow guys things I already knew about ballistics. Now I really feel like a nerd because his two books he shows up with are the same ones I'd been recommending! Great stuff.
Excellent!
Now I'd love to see them test fobs vs fetching seeing all of this new data and if the fob would still provide the lift needed
FOBs are great for lift. They provide more stability than any three fletch vanes I've tested. However once you use a four fletch with a bit of spin you'll get the same control area at much less weight than a FOB. And FOBs are loud as hell. They work really well but I don't recommend in general due to weight, clearance, and lighted nock compatibility.
Fowler has made me so damn pointy headed in the last 3 years…. Dig in and prepare for the trenches boyz 🏹
Very interesting content.
Will the roll rate increase with added fletching? For example, going from a 3 vane fletch at 6% helical to a 4 vane fletch at 6%. If you add a fletch do you need to decrease your helical?
It shouldn’t. The degrees are what controls the spin rate. Having more fletchings will make the arrows reach that rate faster but it won’t increase the rate itself.
@@lorencpollo2926 this
good stuff.
My head is spinning but I love it...thanks again Rocketman!
Well done
Rocketman, what if any effect/benefit would there be if an arrow was fletched with FEATHERS "opposite" from traditional. That is, use a left wing feather and offset it to the right? Or vise versa. With short Rayzr feathers the natural quill bend is not going to prevent fletching this way. Do you think the arrow would get up to steady roll rate more quickly? I think the wear on the feather would be better as the smooth side would catch on things less and fletching would last longer. Do you think there would be less drag until roll stabilization? I also have been calling BS on moving fletching so far forward. With zero poundage hold, non adult, sissy bows, were your moustache touching the string will induce misses, the trend has been to move the fletch so far forward your projectiles don't even look like arrows any more. With D loops the fletch is farther forward anyway. I say fletch toward the nock, use feathers, and as long as your fingers or your release clear, your good to go. I'd rather have my CP as far back on the shaft as possible.
The increase in drag should be relatively small, and if the feathers wear better that way I'd say go for it and try it out.
Note everything is a trade off, but a small increase in drag isn't the end of the world. As far as moving CP back, I concur.