Let's Talk World Tour and 3.6 Changes
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- AKA TDM game mode
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I always find it odd how everyone online says that cloak is the #1 pick for light, but in all my games both casual, season 2 competitive and now world tour I see it so rarely, and 90% of lights just use dash and then there's the small amount of grapple/sniper players and then I almost never see anyone use cloak since it got all those duration nerfs
doubly odd considering how many higher rank players claim that cloak is easy to spot and useless
What rank are you? Almost everyone in ranked in every single season has run cloak. The other specialisations don’t come close to cloak, it’s overpowered.
Why use cloak when you can use dash with vanish, it’s like sending a team with 3 dash lights 3 stun guns one light with a sword one light with a smg and a light with whatever 3rd weapon of choice with a gateway to tp the cash box early they’re nearly impossible to deal without the glitch trap.
@@realmaximusfps"Everyone" lol
@@realmaximusfps i mean im behind this season but i was in D4 for every previous season including the betas and i rarely ever saw it, maybe past that things change dramatically?
Worst change was no cash lost on team wipes, 3rd parties are way worse and that wasn’t my complaint but it was the most vocal complaint I’ve heard, people are also not scared to die, so if you’re in a losing situation last round you just unalive yourself, I just think the game isn’t old enough and people can’t get use to the way the game should be played with changes like this for some of them to be dialed back..
Spot on about teams not being able to come back from the 4th place
One thing that I noticed that I don't think you mentioned directly: There is less reason to hold and hide a cashbox at the end of the game. I was not a fan of chasing the winning teams for a cashbox, nor holding the box in a corner for the win. Now, with the ~30% deposit cash, you can sometimes jump into first, if only temporarily, and secure second place by doubling the final cashout. This also gives most of the teams a final fighting chance. Some may find it annoying to have fourth jump into first, but I personally like the potential for a last minute clutch play. Maybe this is less of a consideration in high elo, but in my casual play, I find it a nice improvement.
Also, solid edit there regarding members, I had to hear it a couple times to realize it was intentional.
@@tjbourke my members are packing massive girthy hearts what can i say, youre just the best
One thing I’ve noticed is that it’s actually typically detrimental to hold onto the box at the end of the game. I’ve had 2-3 games where my team mate is running around refusing to insert the box, and another team grabs the other vault and inserts it - or that team mate dies, loses the box, and it gets inserted by another team which means we now have to steal it in order to win.
If you’re in second place especially - but even if you’re in first - if you open the last vault, just insert it. Most of the time it actually just cements your victory.
Not with the 7 seconds steal and 1st place jumping on just for kills. Doesnt make sense for them to be agressive without a risk/reward. Only reward
I’ve definitely seen it swing both ways like a **** but I’ve had it where we came back by depositing into a already deposited cash out to get to 4th - 2nd/1st but more times in my games if we are leading, and the team could benefit off of a cash out after halftime, I typically grab it and just megatoss it or run with it to the farthest corner from the cash out boxes and prevent them from collecting, making the matches go faster but that’s just how I play it safe haha
My personal observation:
This cashout version is more competitive friendly than the vanilla version. I played the whole weekend, and honestly felt like if you were good or coordinated, you’d qualify.
There is a negative aspect to this: you can no longer go from last place to first in a qualifying round by thir partying and wiping two weak teams and stealing the final cashout. This was a major dopamine rush. BUT, if we want cashout to maintain it’s identity while making adjustments to make it more fair for S4 ranked, then we are on the right track and I’m net positive on the rebalance
you can still make it from 4th with a final steal. It's happened multiple times for me. just don't play so poorly that you're out of that range. you are right. this is the more competitive rank experience and embark has made it clear they want that.
@@julio1148 there are ups and downs to it, experimenting is good
@@RideTheSkies I only saw it on Thixxy’s streams but not personally, there are only two conditions this can happen (as far as I know): double vault on the cashouts, or everyone has a close score
Yes it’s possible and still hype, just pointing out that it’s not as frequent
Like I said I’m positive on the changes so far👌🏻haven’t seen any of the exploits people were concerned about
I think that they changed too much at once. It's that they changed cash earned on kill AND removed teamwipe penalties AND introduced 30% deposit bonuses. If those "AND"s were "OR"s, we could narrow down what about original Cashout was unhealthy through actually testing out these variables one at a time.
I just think these changes made the gamemode somewhat less tactical. Because now you can rush into fights without worrying about loosing cash. Loosing cash on teamwipes just makes you think twice before jumping into battle. And also before the update you could always still qualify by just cashing out the last 22.000$ cashout. Now i have experienced it several times that me and my team only cashed out the last cashout but we still didnt qualify. Also the teamwipe penalty opens the opportunity to simply teamwipe enemy teams to qualify instead of starting a new cashout.
You sound like you've done unit testing.
@@KarlKognitiv 😂
@@KarlKognitiv I haven't haha. Just been building PCs for a long time.
They need to add environmental kills as a way of the game counting your kills, I killed two players rpg’ing the ground under them dropping two off the map and killed the last one but I only got 500 for the one kill like what was the point of me popping off that hard.
Fr i want those kills to count forsure
Assisted suicides would be nice
this is lowkey one of my most desired features and seems like a huge missed opportunity
I couldn’t agree more about the team wipe penalty being taken away, makes coining seem weird and pointless. Takes away that little knot in your stomach feeling of having to clutch up or make a play to res. About to hit 500 hours here soon and don’t plan on stopping. Also that stun on the heavy and snatching the vault was the sickest thing ever, I literally gasped and said “no f**king way”
12:07 i would love if they added „let’s wait here” ping so i could try to convince my team not to push cashout that’s almost done
4:21 I have not noticed this happening, what usually happens in my games is that after cashout A ends, a new vault spawns and people start going for the vault. If it's the second set of vaults that is spawning, plugging it will be worth 5K, which is just 2K less than cashout B and I find that fighting for or stealing the vault is easier and faster than fighting for cashout B. It's also harder to disengage from a cashout fight in a timely manner because you're dying in close proximity to the cashout where the enemy will be camping, whereas if you lose the fight for the new vault then the enemy will be running towards their cashout to plug the vault and setup defences and not camp your respawn statues, letting you disengage faster and more easily and go fight for the new vault opening after cashout B finishes.
@@AMVaddictionist you can still fighr for vault 4 after cashout b which is where the rotation works. If you go for vault 3 for the plug yes thats 5k but you are missing out on the 7k of cashout b AND vault 4 which is another 5k because timing wise you wont be there for both so you arent missing out on 2k, you are missing out on a 7k. Hope this helps. Good luck in your future games!
Been having a ton of fun with the grapple buff, makes plugging cash so much easier and combined with gateway means your cashout starts first every time, and you have decent odds of stealing the second vault
The game rewards the teams for actually working effectively in every aspect rather than waiting around to third party cash outs and not get wiped. You get way more money if you are actually progressing the game even if it costs you to wipe.
I like that the cashout changes promote more fights because people arent scared to lose their money, and are instead worried about 1 team killing all the others. I feel like fights before this patch were something to avoid unless there was an objective involved.
Edit: For a bit of further clarification, this is a blast in this world tour casual mode. I think this would be bad in higher levels of comp without some penalty for dying. Step in the right direction overall.
Nah it was better like that. It was more strategic. Now it just feels like team death match. They made a huge mistake.
It just makes the game more pubstompy. The good players will stomp and the bad ones will continue to suffer. There is no penalty for risk, and inherently negating risk benefits better players
I like all the changes except for the no loss on wipe, because that is typically the only way for a team in last to qualify is by wiping second place and stealing the cashout.
Could be neat to see it reimplemented at 15% loss but the lost money is given to the team that wiped you, so relatively speaking its still a 30% difference but ONLY for the team that wiped you
@@secretmink8389 very true. There have been multiple instances in my experience where the 4th place team can’t possibly win in the last 2 minutes of the game unless they insert both $22k cash boxes and cash them both out - which is close to a pipe dream at that point.
@@Zlittlepenguin sure but, its not like you're going to be able to wipe the last team if they're good. It's pretty easy for all 3 players to stay alive by all hiding in different obscure corners of the map. With this new system, if you get enough kills you can get your lead back without having to go hunt down specific enemies. And if a team did get 22k ahead with this new system, they probably deserved it. Because its likely they're the more skilled team as they would need alot of kills and consistant objective control.
They need to put back team wipe penalty
yep... just not 30% maybe 15%
I will say that since the change many of the games have been closer with only a difference of a few thousand separating the 2 and 3 positions. There are a large portion of games that my team has been able to qualify where we were in 3rd by $1k-$6k, everybody is busy fighting over the last active cashout, we grab the "fogotten" last vault and double deposit for the easy $7k moving us into 2nd.
REMEMBER KIDS: Even if the enemy team controls the vault, you still get the deposit bonus.
The logic behind removing teamwipe penalty was to discourage teams in first place from hiding at the end of a match because they were scared of a wipe. This hasn't really happened though, because by getting involved in teamfights you're still effectively feeding other teams kills and prolonging the match, so a smart first place team will still do the math and hide with a vault rather than get involved.
I also don't know if I agree with your "constantly rotating 3rd party" strat. For starters, any team that gets wiped on Cashout A is going to quickly spawn closer to B, which means if you abandon B you'll immediately lose it. Second point is that the new 30% dropoff bonus means you're often better off opening a new vault and dropping it into C than trying for a third party steal on B when there's only ~40% of the timer left, unless you're absolutely dominating and you're confident you can win the fight.
I agree that removing teamfight penalty sucks, and that it's taken a lot of the hard swings out of the game which made the final few minutes so tense and that made The Finals unique. But I'm still finding in a lot of games the final scores are now much more close, often with a difference of one or two kills for teams vying for a qualification spot. Which feels exciting in a different way.
@@Sweep7000 you can fight for vault 4 after b is done instead of vault 3. Also when teams die and spawn at b thats very beneficial to winning your fight at a, if you are the last team to roll up at b you are in the most advantageous position. The rotating strat has been done since season 1 by the best players in the game all the way up to this season, the changes actually make it even more beneficial the only difference is it keeps as a strong strat now, where as before it fell off near the end when avoiding wipe became more important. Go ahead and try it with a dedicated 3 stack and im sure you will instantly see more success. Good luck in your future games !!
I think Embark needs to take a look at Halo and embrace the sandbox. More game modes like capture the flag, king of the hill, FFA, and then fun party modes like low gravity with increased speed the whole match, increased destruction and health juggernaut where you get really big, a racing/speed running mode where you run around the giant maps. Also custom games with granular control of rules, community server browser, and mods.
This 100%
What a great explanation of strategy as well as input on the balances - you are much appreciated sir
your description of the "correct decision" perfectly illustrates the real problem with this game mode. the winning play can't be that complicated. people are never gonna get that. the objective needs to be simple enough that people who have never even played the game can understand what's going on while tuning into a twitch stream for 5 minutes. and it needs to be obvious enough that people who aren't communicating and don't know each other will spontaneously cooperate around it and help each other win, whereas in it's current state, even people who have played the game for months and think they do understand the game mode will still take completely different approaches to fights and end up throwing them for each other.
like, in most fps games, the optimal play might include some complex details in terms of execution, but the overall game plan is usually as simple as "kill all the enemies" or "hold the objective zone". but in cashout, it's so open ended it doesn't create the necessary guidelines for a team to work together, thus creating a situation ripe for toxicity, frustration, confusion, and giving up.
now, idk how they'd fix this problem, it would require some deep changes to the format I think, but as far as I can see this is literally the core issue with the game and the biggest reason it hasn't taken off further than it has. of all the changes they made in this experiment (which I think were mostly really good) the best one for addressing this was just the additional ui explaining what the heck is going on, which I assume will be staying regardless of the rest of the changes, so at least that's something. and it does make me wonder if this issue could actually be addressed primarily with better in game communication in terms of letting players know what they need to be doing. but I'm not sure what that would look like exactly, especially since I don't think there's a broad consensus on how to optimally play this newer format or even the old one between the devs and all the different kinds of players.
I like new changes other than the no cash lost from team wipe, and your communication idea i really like as a solo q player it would be huge for some actual communication
I have enjoyed the changes overall, although I do think there is still quite a bit of tweaking regarding team wipes and cash loss, perhaps a scaling percentage of loss.
Honestly my games are mostly close and quite tense. Except of course when I accidentally queue into Appoh stack first round and the entire lobby gets completely face rolled 😂
@@Waltztacular yeaaaa sometimes it just be that way.
Would love a video from you where you propose cashout rules you think would be worth testing. Perhaps 20% loss on team wipe in conjunction with most of the current changes? Perhaps increased 2nd vault opening time to even things out a bit?
I’m not going to lie, I don’t mind the changes as much as I thought I would initially. However I don’t think it really fixed anything the community was complaining about.
One great change I think is underrated is that light actually has a solid “role” now. Instead of HHM or MMH, it’s actually worthwhile to have at least 1 light, and I’ve even won a few games with MLL as long as the lights are strong fighters.
I think the biggest “issue” I’ve seen so far is that sometimes if your team is having a rough game, it’s not mathematically possible to win at the end unless you miraculously get lucky and grab both of the last cash boxes, insert them both in a double stack, and cash them out. I’ve only managed to do this a single time (which was hilarious and awesome lol) but other than that, the 4th place team hasn’t won in the final 2 minutes - even when they successfully get a single cashout.
Obviously the answer there is to enable losing money on wipes again, but if I’m being honest with you - I’ve noticed that the amount of money people have is a lot smaller now. It’s harder to get a lot of money unless you’re steam-rolling. And even then you’re probably not getting $90k-$100k like you used to be able to. So I dunno if it’s a good idea to enable it again or not. It would feel weird to get first with 12k or something lol.
I used to hate 3rd parties so much but now that there are no team wipes it makes it less frustrating honestly.. and the matches just feel so chaotic and action packed, I love the new update so much. As someone who solo qs the old cashout was very annoying as we would be in first and start a cash out and just get jumped by 2 teams and no you have no hope. People say you can’t catch up with this new update but I find that to be such bs, I have been able to double up the last cashout and catch up after completing and insane fight against all teams and it just feels so rewarding.
Hey Guys, I feel like most people see the removal of 30% cash lost in a similar way as Appoh (evenmore the sweats). I also play a lot, a lot, a lot of cashout (top 250 wt) and I disagree but maybe this is a open space of discussion. I see the point of the lack of complexity but on the other hand this exact „complexity“ was 70% first place camping or running away the moment they where safe and just 30% teams going for more strategic fights. Those 70% felt very discouraging for the third place which desperately are forced to play hide and seek for the most important last minutes of the game with nearly no chances of getting a full team wipe if the first team doesn’t blunder. The other 30% aren’t even close to be gone tho. Fights are still highly complex in the finals, no one wants to get that half minute penalty, even less since the new update since it means u have half off a minute less time on the board to get those crucial eliminations. I also feel like that people which have a negative opinion about the cash lost removal tend to be very dominant players anyways or people which make up their mind based on the current world tour circumstances and not actually ranked. But what if, after this season, as planned, we are back on that cashout ranked grind? You are maybe not the 1% off players which dominates every game regardless and which anyways gets team wiped rather rarely. You are having a great ranked game in gold to plat, u understand the game and its mechanics. But then just because the game is going towards the end and JUST because u are on off the leading team (which should be rather rewarded) one single team death leads to u loosing a game against obviously weaker players which got team whipped 2-3 times in the beginning to middle part of the game. That doesn’t make any sense at all in a competitive sense. For the 1% player which still don’t understand my point imagine urself in a stacked diamond game or even a real cash tournament. This changes highly benefits those teams which payed over a longer period of time better or in the right way. At the moment games aren’t as stacked as in 2 month. Keep that grind in your mind, world tour isn’t ranked. Think about changes futherwise.
Anyways as I said I’m open for discussions 🎉
all this is great but I do hope the finals can find it's footing soon all the same gadgets getting readjusted so many times I mean-
even if it takes one whole more season that'd be OK, but by Season 5 I'd hope to see enough balance to call it competitive-
but it feels like we're playing a totally different ruleset every week or two lately.
dont get me wrong though, I'm not complaining, I'm really impressed with Embark's communication level with us.
I actually love this game and want to support the game so I'm supporting content creators of this game and I hope The finals get to somewhere better.
How will you be supporting?
You are my favourite The Finals creator BY A LONG SHOT. Everything you say is so well reasoned.
I would have no objection at all if the developers would just listen to your advice and do exactly what you recommend.
It is also a nice bonus that your gameplay is superb.
Playing the objective feels less rewarding, particularly as cashouts actually are worth less value.
It can be much more complicated to understand your standings and the best way to ensure you move on.
The final cash out feel like it decides the match even more than it used to.
Team wipe money loss seems better than kills worth money. Primarily one team can dominate another and wipe them several times, but they still stay close enough on the scoreboard that the extra $1500 isn't enough to to out you at much of an advantage.
The changes aren't all bad, but much less enjoyable than previously.
The other note is it feels much more challenging to steal than previously. Might be a combination between increased steal time with more combat and teams around each cashout.
I like new cashout changes. I would restore team wipe penalty tho, because that was the only thing that was making you think about risk and reward.
I love that sentence! "Go and third party all the noobs" XD Perfectly sums up how the Cashout should actually be played!
Most of the community and embark seems to disagree. Third partying is no skill, free advantage strat that only loosers use. It is not fun to play against too. I refuse to accept it because it will turn into the same madness as high rank brawl stars solo showdown, where everyone is teaming and trading wins, and i expect you to either stop your propaganda, or give me a good reason as to why i am mistaken.
@@arturroblox3662 Third party is usually not desired. What we mean here is that it can be totally avoided most of the time by making good decisions and having good game sense.
The intended moral of the sentence is that if you are constantly getting third partied and losing cashouts then that means you are making bad decisions of which cashouts to defend or when to double and when to go for steals.
With that said and with good game sense third parties are still going to happen but it will be rare and not the norm. And in this case they can be considered the extra spice to your game keeping you on your toes.
I wasn't aware of the cashout being 1s longer, now im recalling last second moments from yesterday
one of my main gripes with cashout is no stealing overtime. i find it so mind numbing how the devs say basically, "the last 7 seconds of a cashout mean nothing". it's just so unfair that they can go AFK, and win. amazing decision i must say
Great vid, glad to hear someone talk about this with some nuance. Personally I think your scenario of team 4 having $1k and not being able to win illustrates why these changes are good. If a team played that poorly all match, they shouldn't be able to win the match barring some 44k vault miracle. Allowing a team who did nothing all match to win just because of one time wipe + 22k vault makes the entire match meaningless. It's easy to say "just don't wipe" but that's not always realistic and also encourages slower play because the winning teams will just hide in a room for the last minute or so. Not having an easy way to comeback does make the game less fun, but it also makes it closer to being a competitive FPS by giving fewer crutches to the worse players in a lobby.
One time I saved my team after throwing a 22000$ cashbox into another team's cashout. It fed the other team but since we got 30% from that deposit we qualified. (other teammate was DC'd)
The best change of this patch.
My main problem is, we've waited half a season for significant Cashout changes, for Cashout to be better. We were given a ranked mode abysmally worse in the meantime, while they work behind the scenes. They want to give us a mental note that they truly are cooking. The fact that Cashout is not substantially better, but rather a mixed bag is a big disappointment, added onto unnecessary changes like the Dash nerf.
To be fair, they did say in the official Discord that the Swedish mandatory summer vacation did set them back a bit (if I remember correctly).
I honestly don’t think the dash nerf was unnecessary. It was too strong. Now you can’t be quite as flippant about dashing around. Also there’s a stronger case now for using grapple instead.
@@Zlittlepenguin Dash was balanced. Cloak has always been stronger than Dash. Dash just fell behind Cloak even more, and the time to recharge was just right. You can’t tell me that “Dash nerf was unnecessary” when no one complained about Dash beforehand.
@@CalamityShreds nobody complained about dash true, but I think they did it because nobody was using grapple. Dash was the superior traversal specialisation for the majority of scenarios and now it isn’t. But also even though nobody was complaining about it, it’s hard to argue against the fact that you could effectively spam it in a fight and make it real difficult to hit you. Now you have to be more thoughtful about it. Although I would argue not even really that much more thoughtful. It’s not like they killed it with the nerf.
I also kind of disagree that cloak is better than dash. I mean light is my least played so I guess I’m not as passionate about this argument, but cloak is now the least viable imo. Especially when you can bring a vanish bomb with dash and effectively achieve the same thing but with more speed. I just think with the changes to cashout, it helps your team out way more if you bring grapple or dash to get to the cashout box faster for the insert. That’s just my opinion though I guess. If you’re playing TA then I can see cloak being the best option.
@@Zlittlepenguin Nah, trust me. I've got a couple hundred hours on Light. Cloak > Dash (even before the nerf) > Grapple
Seeing that example of how u play staggered cashouts really opened my eyes and i can see how teams can dominate so hard.
Here’s a crazy thought. Let’s get rid of snipers in TA. It’s the least risky way of playing whilst getting the most rewards. They shouldn’t encourage people playing like cowards in a ranked mode. Stop sniping now or give us heal beam back
Here’s my current thoughts on a lot of general state of the game stuff:
Embark seems like they meant this to be a season of experimentation. Unfortunately they did a bad job showing this as most of the early season was spent focusing on TA and other mode rework esc stuff, plus some sudden balance changes(lh1 for example).
I like these changes to cashout, with two exceptions. The spawns are kinda ass and the wipe penalty being gone. Spawns need fundamental tweaks, like checks for enemy proximity, cashout in progress proximity and ally proximity. These checks need some tweaks. I think reduced wipe is a nice experiment and there are some positives to no wipe penalty alongside the negatives, and those positives illustrate to me that reduced wipe penalty is a good choice. Everything else feels great in play.
I think light is in an interesting position. TK needs to be reworked imo(just give it 6 round mag, one knife per basic throw at 60 dmg with a 1.4x headshot modifier, alt fire can be held and does 100 damage with a 2x headshot modifier) at most and at the least just nerf basic fire damage to make the alt fire have a reason to exist. I also think stun gun should be changed so instead of nerfing mobility it prevents interacting with anything (grabbing stuff, opening doors, stealing or activating or depositing, the like) instead of dropping mobility. The reason it’s so bad feeling to play against is because it takes a high movement game and removes that movement with no warning. Beyond that I’d like if grapple had a second charge, dash had old cooldown and cloak had older activation cost. Maybe dash gets more distance, Idk lol. (Buff 93er lol) As it stands besides a couple exceptions of broken stuff light is in a great place, and while it’s not a good thing for any one class to be extremely present in the meta team comp wise remember season one and MMM/ HHH? Remember when light was considered a throw pick? If you hate this now well congrats, now you know how light felt(also outside some examples like lh1 meta MMH/HHM/MMM/HHH are still better comp picks against better players and teams)
Melee weapons need their multi hit. I think that’s just a fact. Sledge without overhead multi hit feels terrible, and without backstab multi hit there are times a perfect stab gets accidentally blocked, especially annoying when trying to prevent steals.
Medium i think needs at least one destruction option that’s permanent, and demat doesn’t count because it isn’t destruction(and if you say “find a barrel” I want you to think about why your ability to engage with a core mechanic being tied to randomly spawning consumable items is a dumb idea.) I think riot shield should get a shield bash (while holding up the shield attack to knock people back) and double blade should gain like a meter that charges while blocking shots, and when full you can attack while blocking to do a sort of hyper lunge, with the meter being able to be used essentially whenever. The reason double blades aren’t as good as other melee weapons is because the class lacks the gap closing light has or the tanking ability heavy has. This is why riot shield is so good as a melee weapon.
Heavy needs several tweaks. RPG needs more severe damage falloff, and being caught in the direct impact of the rocket should be when you take a stupid amount of damage, not when you get caught in the wider blast radius. Charge n slam needs to do less damage and more knockback. Make it do 20 damage per hit on the charge and 50 base on the slam, with the slam increasing as you fall. Increase the knockback on hits significantly, especially on physics objects. Winch claw should let only disable movement and specializations while you’re being pulled, so that it isn’t a basically free kill. Spear alt fire should be a throw, and the spear is a valid grapple/ winch point. If you stick a player when you press alt fire again to call it back then you pull the hit player towards you some. Remove the initial burst of recoil from the m60, increase its damage by a few points. Make Lewis recoil more consistent. Drop flamethrower base damage to 20, flamer applies 4 stacks of burn (five damage each) on a hit, when these stacks wear off there is a 1 second cooldown before you can have another batch of stacks applies by flamethrower. Stacks are not refreshed or increased, but applied one at a time. Flamer also has a thinner cone which applies in a -- shape at about waist height, that way it doesn’t obscure line of sight for people fighting the flamer.
I think this is a pretty damn well balanced game overall, hence why the bad stuff stands out so much. These are my rambly thoughts, they mean as much as you think thoughts from a random guy who likes moths should lol.
So the changes were an attempt to "stop" or limit third parties, as top 100 sweat lord from last season I think overall it just makes them worse.
I feel like the $200 to $500 cash change really did nothing, so it's fine (until you include the third change lol)
The other two changes do the opposite of what was intended. 30% on cashout deposit really does nothing but incentive doubling by a single team whenever possible, especially the first and last cashouts. If you can double the last cashout as the first place team, you literally can't lose.
No cash lost on wipe, this change is just flat out horrible, it pretty much makes coins worthless in 90% of situations, the only time coins are useful now, is in time limited cashout grabs, any other time it's just better to wipe.
With no way to remove money, you have no reason not to take 3rd or 4ths parties and this is more clear with the 1st place team, who in old cashout would hide/play safe to keep 1st place but can now do whatever.
They need to hide names and ranks during ranked play and show them when you win or are knocked out. Bring back cash on wipe and if they wanna reward teams for holding a cashout, break the cashout into 3rds and every 40 seconds you get 30% with the last 40 seconds being worth 40%.
This would reward holds, force other teams to fight faster if they want the most cash, and deincentivize last second rat steals.
This is all they need to do.
I think they should experiment with applying the 30% reduction to only the first and second place teams. This will keep the top two on their feet and also would allow some crazy upsets from third or fourth place
i think it'd be awesome to have an 'ultimate cashout guide' for situations on what to do with vaults n stuff, when to steal, when to insert cashbox etcetc
You said it all. Embark just follow. Revert Teamwipe penalties, and stealing cashout timer, the other changes to cashout were kinda good
Agree with almost every point you made but I have a vastly different experience about light specialisation. In my experience dash has been the most dominant and invis and grapple are now niche picks in both casual and world tour. Dash with vanishing bomb is far more dominant cuz in my opinion vanishing bomb provides pretty much the same value as invis specialisation because of how much activation cost for going invis is right now, at least dash would help you survive if you get shot, invis would get deleted cuz after just activating it twice your entire bar is gone. I see a few invis here and there, grapple has a separate fanbase and pretty much exclusively used by them I guess but dash is the one majority use in my games. May be something dependent on your region or server but that’s just my experience.
7:52 I believe this is the entire reason for the change. Previously it was much easier to invert the course of the game right near the end, and the wipe penalties meant what happened near the start of the game was barely relevant, and you could win from doing terribly the whole game at the last second with… mostly luck to be honest, partially because of this. The point of the change was specifically to make the game more predictable and consistent in how much you are rewarded for your actions throughout the match in terms of their impact on how likely you are to win.
i feel like the no cash loss on wipe is a good change IF the token system is changed
one idea ive thrown around with my friends is that tokens could be used as a quick revive for those dire situations so theyd have more of a use at all skill levels
(plus i do enjoy not worrying as much about dying to third parties and getting obliterated by explosives and losing cash)
I agree. I bet they revert to cash loss for comp. All the other changes are good ideas but there needs be a loss for a wipe. I think it should match the 30% of current boxes on map. So if its 5k for insert, then team wipe during this time should also be 5k.
The amount of outplay potential of demat is INSANE I have been playing it since it came out and I main it whenever am playing medium
Do you have a video about 3rd partying and tournament strat in general? Id love a thorough explanation video of your strategy especially with the new changes
Grapple is sleeper gem, don't think that cloak is the only viable option. People just don't want to learn how to dominate with grapple (titanfall 2 veterans will understand)
Me and my friends just got back into this game after taking a break after season one. We’ve enjoyed playing the new season but this new patch is 50/50 with me (granted I don’t play TA i don’t like it) but i’m really surprised this game doesn’t have a bigger competitive scene. Then I really like seeing myself push for top 500 on the leaderboard but you can’t see yourself unless you hit top 500 im only 8mil away from it but idk I still enjoy the game just wish it would grow some more.
Nerfing dash Is a crime bro like i everytimd I trying to run away from heavy my dash does charger like b4 dash it get nerf it was the best grappling Claw and flamethrower that ever light nightmare 🙏🏾
In my experience at low-ish elos cloak is way rarer than dash is. Since that’s where most players lie it doesn’t surprise me at all that dash was nerfed
Gateway light starting all the cashouts meta
I don’t think the cool down matters for dash it’s more the time between consecutive dashes. I think there should be a delay between dashes to make it more fair for other classes. The distance covered could be increased to compensate but, the instant direction changes are unfair to fight against.
i apperciate the video on this topic its not talked about enough how little is explained to the casual player, and as much as i want new players i hate playing with them cuz i feel like if i try to help im just backseat gaming cuz they dont have a grasp on any meta gameplay at all, just moment to moment shoot the bad guys
Nope. I've came back from 4th plenty of times in the new system with a final steal. In fact, letting yourself get that far down should not create an artificial hurrrah comeback story. You should understand that as a "competitive" player and the finals wants ranked to be a competitive experience. In casual, sure. Keep the comeback from behind story when the 4th place team sneaks into second or whatever. You know what's even more discouraging to a new player, great 3 stacks doing double cashouts and winning 95% of them. It sure makes a new player want to keep playing knowing the first place team just got a 100k+ and rolled the entire lobby. That sure makes new players want to continue knowing they'll have no chance in the final round. why keep playing? no different for those players with 2k leaving now. there are people with so little willpower to play, they'll lose the first encounter quickly and just alt-f4
@@RideTheSkies hopefully with a proper ranked system we can make it easier to balance matches out
I hope someday they make a *test server for Finals addicts to playtest new changes* before any update actually drops.
My 10/10 utopian dream for this game. Could fix problems waaaaaay sooner & prevent complete mishaps like LH1/TK.
Unreal just like the engine but I heard we are allowed to dream. 😁
I think no penalty on team wipe is a good thing. The time spent dead is already punishment enough. This just reduces the frustration and the snowball a winning team can build by wiping others.
That last clip was insane!
As long as embark keeps making weird variety changes, people will have reasons to make youtube videos. It's kind of a win win.
Personally I want more punishment and pain...
Been waiting for this one :)
1. They should have buffed kills to 300-400. 2. They should have kept the penalty.
3. All they should have really done is make skill based MM without people seeing each others ranks.
4. I think they need to add peeking.
What creators left the finals? People always bring this up but everybody I watch is still here. The only one who’s gone is Elvyn as far as I know
Cashout changes is frustrating. Too many lights just going monkey and dying alone.
forgive me if i misunderstand but... when you say the correct decision is to put it into the active cashout A instead of starting a new one (which i do agree with), isnt that still just third or potentially fourth partying? i mean you're attacking a cashout thats already started and being fought over.. right? i suppose the consequences arent as bad because only 1 team will end up with the money, and this leaves the other 3 at equal footings. but if it is third partying, then i think the option that leads to promoting people starting their own cashouts may decrease the third partying. especially because, if that cashout A does end with a minute left on cashout B, the people who are done at cashout A have more incentive to starting their own cashout now due to the 30% up front, especially because they likely also got some money from fighting over cashout A due to the new kill rewards. without it, of course everyone would ALWAYS most rather go for the active cashout. i just feel like even though it doesnt fix third partying, anything that incentivizes starting new cashouts seems like it would reduce it to me, because without that incentive the third party is just more worthwhile in every way. like im not saying your decision isnt correct, but im just saying it kinda just seems like bringing money to an active cashout is still frustrating for the people who started it, and they'll probably perceive it as a third party still. i really dont play cashout a LOT so, like i said, forgive me if i misunderstand
Heal Beam needs the ability to stack heals removed and take 50% less healing while actively taking damage.
I eat lights for breakfast with my Heavy and Spear
A crazy change i’d wanna see is the money you earn the match before carries over to the next.
they need to stop listening to the subreddit
Nah the cashout change aint it. It discourages strategic fighting as there is no point in trying to wipe a team to lower their score and get ahead, but promotes brainless 3rd party fights that go unpunished. It also allows for strategic deaths that actually give you an advantage throughout the entire game rather than just at the start. This is because getting vaults is even more important now so getting a good spawn/leaving the fight early will make it easier to obtain that free 30% in certain situations. There are also way less comeback scenarios, previously you could almost always steal a win with a wipe/cashout steal, now you can't lower anyone's score. If you fall behind because some team decided to brainlessly 3rd party you and get wiped but cause your death, they stay ahead whilst preventing you from doing anything, leaving you with no choice but to wait out the game end because there is nothing that can be done.
These changes also make it easier for worse players to win more often as they can get 30% of cash for free from lucky spawns/no contest etc. As mentioned multiple times, other teams can throw your game with no detriment now so imo this change feels so bad to play.
Great points, great video!
I really like the removal of team wipe penalties. It lets me take more risks and opens up new opportunities for unique plays, as well as helps protect against scenarios where I play well all game but lose the top spot in the last minute. I can worry about playing the game and not about having all my hard work taken away. Makes the game feel more chill and less stressful. I'm sure a lot of people enjoy the intensity and randomness but personally I've grown really tired of a lot of it, but would still like to play World Tour and earn the specific "Competitive" Rewards without frustration.
@@enderborn017 it certainly amps up the action
Every single change (minus the 500 per kill) in WT was designed for average to below average players to give them a chance to compete with better/stronger players. Embark does everything it can to close the gap between good players and ur average player. this is their way of (aveage/casual) player retention. why couldnt they just drop the money lost from 30 to 10%? to go from 30% to NOTHING is crazy. This rewards bad teams and punishes good teams that don't wipe nearly as often, allowing the shittier teams to always have skin in every round even with multiple wipes.
completely agree
honestly I disagree I felt like I've had much closer games. Honestly I think the game is a little less punishing not a lot less punishing because of all the changes whenever you would lose a fight and I'll die you feed that team $1,500 plus the time it takes to respond. The 30% was just so demoralizing especially when you were winning that it just made me want alt f4. Well and the end of a lot of games so top three teams are usually only 2000 away from each other. And even the last place team has a chance to win by getting both on the last set.
@@taru3374 thats awesome to hear. There might be a system that works for everyone, glad to hear their changes are working for some people. Experimenting is important
So the best gameplay is not to camper on cashouts and go to get the other one? What if there is not much time to get the other one?
the only time that matters is the last seconds, i have 2 example clips at the end, those players waited for over a minute just to lose it to us. you can fight for a minute + and still lose all that matters is stealing before the end of the timer, having 2 heavies makes this really easy
0:57 that’s me
I think the issue with this gamemode imo is that a team being able to loose every fight and come back at the end is what makes it feel non-competitive to me. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the ability and concept that its anyone's game at any point but it is inherently non competitive as a worse team being able to loose every fight and be at ~1-5k in overtime, getting a last second steal/cashout, and getting second place, completely invalidates all the fights and wins that the former second place got in the round. It's not very fun to win every fight in a game except the last and it cost you the game while that team does the reverse. I don't think removing team wipes are the answer to make this game feel more competitive, as its basically just tdm, no risk/reward, and teams immensely rich making last place want to quit as you said right now. I don't know what exactly can be done about this and maybe nothing as this is the point of the gamemode but I cant help but feel that in a competitive environment, the better team or the team that wins the most fight should be the team that win. Also wild that they are only making the relatively simple changes now and haven't been experimenting for this entire season as we thought they would.
Extremely well-said. Excellent video.
Haven’t played this game for a month , and the devs are still making big changes that make no sense
I agree that there should be team wipe but one thing needs to be said the fact that most players don't know or use spawn manipulation is a problem of the game not the players
manipulating the players' spawn with one's own actions is practically universally recognized as "exploit" or "cheesing" it is not a game mechanic it is a game system that was not created to be interacted with let alone exploited for the benefit of others
the second problem is that the game doesn't explain it to the players and nor should it for the reasons explained above
at this moment the game has become a "petting" simulator that makes battlefield Base r@ping seem innocent, all while two of the three classes have most of their equipment, weapons and gadgets unusable, the whole feeling of movement and weapons is going down the drain while the updates shift the focus of the game more and more onto the fourth party and easy kills without engaging the objective and for the sole purpose of manipulating the enemy spawn and the teams that reach the final round
I indeed have a large c- heart
I don’t like the heal beam nerf, I think it’s a critical part of the game since it’s the only healing option.
Its Matchmaking sucks, look I finished your video.
4:30 that is not true.
You can just run around aslight, insert both cashboxes and then only opt to defend one.
I loved how the focus of this game was not eliminations and more sbout objective and strategy. The more The Finals gets updated though it seems like Embark shifts the game towards your everyday first person shooter game where elims are most important and they're over tweaking cash out to stop third partying which you can never get rid of entirely.
I completely agree with your thoughts on 3rd partying and these chnages are really frustrating to me.
That background music is so distracting that I can’t physically finish the video
The problem is there are no solo casual game modes. It’s all objective based, team based modes.
People are complaining about making the game more “for casuals” but also don’t want any modes for casuals to go into because it would make the team based modes or ranked modes more sweaty. They just want every player to get good and play the team based, objective based modes or don’t play at all. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Add TDM or FFA to capture the casual audience, and then they will get good on their own and go into team based game modes. And no, Bank It does not count. It is just a lame version of not kill confirmed. Nobody plays it for a reason.
Honestly besides dash and teamwipe penalty changes id say it was a good update. (as a light screw the 150hp heavy lmao)
Does anyone know where can I email Embark team with some feedback? Discord don't think works//
I think like when you hold the ping "Remove" option is the worst solution i ever seen... and damn want them change it
Is world tour badge progress broken for anyone else? Its not moving on my end.
Another great vid man
Wait your friends with Leo Vader
yeah one of my early members, very awesome person
I think the reason behind the removal of the cash penalty from wipeouts are due to it being way too punishing to the teams with a lot of money while the bottom feeders don't lose anything and can always risk it all until they get lucky and steal the 22k cash out at the end of the round.
There's no link in description
Waiting for my kiss...
My main problem with this game is the audio. I can't understand the position of enemies based on their footsteps and when fight starts it's nearly impossible to hear any footsteps because gunshots and explosions are loud as f.
Also, teammates and enemies footsteps are the same, so you forced to constantly rotate your head 360 degrees or else heavy will just run(!) to you from the back and bonk you in the head.
I don't remember any recent competitive pvp game with such bad audio implementation.
Yummy
I think they should buff some weak weapons. For example the spear. Its not useless but its just weak compered to sledgehammer and does so little damage and right click kinda makes you more vulnerable. Ks-23 is absolutely garbage sorry if you main it but it just sucks you have to put a lot of effort to get kills with it meanwhile it does so little damage and its projectile based. Dual katanas pretty weak to not usable in most cases, and finally the greande launcher they killed this weapon it does no damage at all idk why they keep nerfing the fun stuff?? It will just make the game more boring. Thank you❤
“i will kiss you” promise?