My elderly neighbor was with his wife for over sixty years before they both passed. Once he told me that they came to an understanding when they were newlyweds. He would make all the big decisions and she would make all the small ones. Then he looked me in the eye and said “would you believe in sixty years we never had a big decision?”
To each his own. The idea of different roles in a marriage for a husband and wife is strange to me. I suppose this to be fairly common in religious communities. My husband and I are atheists, and from the beginning, agreed to an egalitarian relationship. We don't have any specific roles or tasks because of our gender. So, for instance, years ago, I did all the cooking and shopping, because I got home from work before he did, and it just seemed logical to have dinner ready. Then I got very ill, and he took over those tasks--and, almost every other task in our home, which he does to this day, because of my ongoing illness. (As it happens, my husband is a wonderful cook, and me...not so much.) We make all our decisions together. We've been married 37 years, so this model has worked for us.
@Jacquline Ard “Egalitarian relationships are becoming more popular in the Western countries whether they are patriarchal or not (the United States is very patriarchal, but it is expected for women to work full-time and have children).” Just a reminder here: in the U.S., when I was growing up in the ‘50s and ‘60s, women were NOT expected to work. My mother was the only working mother I knew. No other mother in our entire neighborhood block--or in my parents’ very large group of friends--worked. When I started going to college in the ‘60s, the 'accepted' jobs for women were teachers and nurses. Women couldn’t even open their own bank accounts. And, of course, the biggie: women could not legally get abortions. As a result, there were many sad stories of botched back-alley abortions. “Not always, but often, egalitarian relationships work out because both partners are a little more androgynous in personality.” Oh my. That’s a very strange conclusion. Not sure where you come up with that idea. “Traditional gender roles should not be a strange concept when you consider how in most workplaces everyone has a role to play (factories, banks, restaurants, hospitals etc).” Not so much as the culture is evolving. For instance, now, doctors are often women. Nurses are often men. Also, regarding restaurants, how do you explain that men typically have held the role of chef-a role you would probably consider to be more of a female role? It’s only in recent years that women have been more accepted as chefs. Basically, it is the culture that has dictated roles for men and women, rather than inherent abilities. I’m glad that a changing culture has resulted in more opportunities for women. And, by the way, I’m not saying that women 'should' work outside the home. Rather, they should at least be able to choose.
I have roles I would prefer to have in a relationship but it has nothing to do with gender, it’s just my personal preference. I don’t think men should do some thing and women should do others, I don’t care what other people do in their relationships, it’s just what I personally want in a partner. A lot of my preferences do line up with more traditional gender roles but that’s just coincidental. It’s just about what I enjoy doing and what I don’t enjoy doing. And I hope I find someone who enjoys doing the things I dislike doing because then we can both be happy and do things we enjoy. I believe we should both have equal workload and responsibilities but we’re not necessarily both doing a bit of everything. I don’t enjoy cleaning so I hope my husband does enjoy cleaning. I hope that I can do all the cooking and then he can cleanup after the meal. In school in cooking class I would always take lead of doing the cooking because that’s what I enjoyed and then my friends would take lead cleaning up because they enjoyed cleaning. Sometimes when my friends came over to my house they would clean my room because they enjoyed doing it lol. My room wasn’t messy but they wanted to clean any little mess they could find because they enjoyed doing it. I would like it if my husband could be the breadwinner because I would prefer to be able to spend more time with my children and I do find a working man attractive. But I do still want my husband to be involved in our children’s lives and I recognise many men do want to spend more time with their kids so I’m happy to work so he can take time off to spend with the kids and also just for some time for himself. I don’t mind too much because there are careers that I like too. I just hope to find my opposite so we can complete eachother. I do the things he dislikes and he does the things I dislike. But if I fall in love with a man who also dislikes the same things as me, so be it, I can do those things if it’s for someone I love. Except doing the dishes, that’s a non negotiable. Seeing wet food makes me want to throw up. I’m fine for him to cook if he loves cooking but he’s also got to do the dishes.
The bottom line when determining if there's oppression (whether to a subtle or gross degree) is considering how power is used/shared/distributed. And, while your community seems to share power with Christ-like intentions in many ways, when it comes to gender, that is not the whole story - aka, there are clearly some blindnesses. Luckily for you and your sisters, the ways that women are limited/restricted in your community is unlikely to mirror the violence that usually accompanies these same limitations/restrictions in other communities because of the peaceful way your community interprets/understands the bible and Jesus' teachings. Nonetheless, we are called to honesty in all things and while the degree of gender oppression you are living in is subtle and therefore less dangerous (though not completely peaceful and therefore still a source of some harm), it would be a lie to say it isn't there at all. Personally, it is less the existence of the shortcomings in regards to what your community makes possible for people based on their gender (because obviously whenever women, or any other group, are controlled, the group put in the controlling position are harmed too - albeit in less obvious ways) and more the lack of honesty about this dynamic that I am responding to.
Do you still consider it oppression if women choose to live with certain roles willingly and joyfully? You could make the argument that they don’t know any different so they can’t make an informed choice, but I personally think that’s not giving them enough credit. They live in the modern world and see the way others do things. They could leave if they wanted to. Many of them do leave. But many choose this life and seem very happy with their choices.
Yah said that there's no male or female in Christ because all are one, meaning Yah and Christ regard both equally. Gal 3:28 One of the reasons that a woman's role in marriage is traditionally centered around the home is due to women's biological makeup that requires her to be in close proximity to her children. While this role can be shifted later on as needed, the actions of both the male and the female are to be in honor to Yah, as well as constructive thinking and sustainability. The type of woman that Yah wants female believers to emulate is depicted in Prov 31. In that passage the woman cares for her household while also conducting business and land ownership. However, whatever a woman decides to do it should not be given greater importance than the needs of her family. The man is to also put the needs of his family in a superior position as is stated in 1 Tim 5:8. However, Yah has designated role for each species on earth and roles for each gender within each species. This is in order to maintain constructivity and sustainability as is required in Gen 1:26 & 28 & Gen 6:9. Human beings have two innate qualities one towards constructive thinking and the other towards hyper-emotionalism. While we're free to choose between the two the rewards of our decision will have much weight. In order for humans to be constructive there's a certain amount of self sacrifice required. Some would see this as restrictive or oppressive, but without it humans would fall into degredation, which in and of itself is a form of oppression.
I think, at the end of the day, it all boils down to what works for your family. If being a SAHM/tradwife is what you want to do and is feasible for your family, then go for it. I think it becomes a problem when the ability to make choices or have a say is taken away from one person by the other. A husband shouldn't deny his wife a career because he wants her to stay home, and a wife shouldn't demand to stay home if the husband doesn't think they can afford to live off one income.
At it's core, the problem with 'obey' the head of the household, and the head always being the default male, is it assumes the male has the woman's best interests at heart. Unfortunately, that is often not true. That's why the best system is one with more equal power sharing, so that each party cannot impose their interests over the other's, they must negotiate. This causes each party to take the other's interests into account far more than any rhetoric or bible. As a society, women have realized this, and started advocating for more egalitarian relationships, so this way of life is no the way out. Women have simply seen from experience that 'man as head' often practically means 'wife devalued'
Whether viewed from on high or from down low, the physiological childbearers will always submit to the dictates of the physiological providers of the human species. The logic of the Bible's directive for wives to submit to their husbands within the confines of holy matrimony cannot be understood outside of a God-centered marriage. 1. Without God, marriage and existence itself is a moot point. 2. The opposite of obedience is rebellion. A house divided against itself cannot stand. 3. A marriage is a union between a man and a woman in the eyes of God wherein the two become 'one flesh' for the purpose of human reproduction. Children, whose genetic make-up is one half of each parent, are the fruit of such unions. 4. There is an order to the universe that incorporates a '1-2-3 Principle'. For example... PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE PROTON-NEUTRON-ELECTRON HEIGHT-WIDTH-DEPTH THESIS-SYNTHESIS-ANTITHESIS FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT FATHER-CHILD-MOTHER GROWTH-HARVEST-DECAY BIRTH-LIFE-DEATH ORDER-BALANCE-CHAOS In a union that is designed to create new life, there is an intrinsic 1-2-3 order which is ordained by God, the author of all nature, in order to bring forth new life. 1. One parent is the designated 'childbearer'. 2. One parent is the designated 'provider'. 3. Both parents combined are required for new life to exist...and must exist in physical, mental and spiritual harmony. 4. The provider parent is endowed by God with greater strength, greater endurance and a greater ability to deal with a chaotic and often dangerous environment which can threaten the family unit. This parent is designed to wage war against anything and everything that threatens new life. 5. The childbearing parent was created by God to physically bear and nurture new life. This parent cannot do it's job effectively if it constantly threatened from the outside. 6. The provider parent provides necessities from the environment...food, water, shelter from the elements...but most importantly...SECURITY FROM EXTERNAL THREATS. The provider parent cannot do it's job effectively if it is countermanded or undermined from within by the childbearing parent. Therefore the childbearing parent must submit to the provider parent as a general rule otherwise there can be no fruitful union. 7. HUMAN MALES are the designated PROVIDER PARENT. 8. HUMAN FEMALES are the designated CHILDBEARING PARENT. 9. There can be no physiological fruitful human existence without BOTH PARENTS. 10. From time immemorial, all tribes, cities, cultures, nation states and ideological socio-economic infrastructures are devised, sustained and destroyed by human males. 11. While there have been female rulers of tribes, cities, nation states, etc...there are currently no viable female devised social orders that are in evidence today. Whether a childbearing parent submits to the provider parent or not...the childbearer will submit to the provider parent's legacy of social order devices...which may or may not tolerate rebellion by the childbearers as it so wills. 12. Confusion is not of God. Inbetween the extremes of 'black and white' are various 'gray areas' which are akin to confused states of mind. Wives submit to your husbands...and husbands honor your wives...leaves no gray areas.
@@garyedwards3269 actually, when you look at the biological evidence, men are expendable and women are made to last. Men have no fat reserves and their reproduction, while it goes on longer, is interchangeable. One men's seed is good as the others. Whereas women are built to outlast famine and bond closely to others, therefor being essential to the tribe. Loosing a woman is more devistating in terms of being able to reproduce than loosing a man. Women's brain make-up is also better suited, commonly, for bigger decisions and a broader outlook, while men are better at the details. This is to due with grey vs white matter. There is strong evidence that before the agrarian period, men and women lived in groups that would have the women together hunting and foraging, protecting themselves, and men pairing up with only a few others who would draw wider circles around their trible, visiting different ones to prevent narrowing the gene pool. You can find all of this information in libraries, if you like.
@@Shasha-jo5iv ...Men are not expendable. They're required for reproduction as well as providing food and protection. Don't confuse transient tribal methods with the immutable laws of nature. Tribal habits and customs varied from tribe to tribe. Women as warriors were the exception, not the rule, because they were physiologically outclassed. Common sense dictated what roles men and women abided by within the tribe during war and peace.
@@garyedwards3269 why cant we just exist and do what we love without telling eachother how to be or what to do when it doesnt hurt themselves or others? Obsessing over how others live is not a good sign of maturity tbh
Your thoughts about honor are so profound; thank you for your words. (And I also never wear high heels---I always want to be able to run fast, whether from something or to something!)
While I understand my Egalitarian thoughts probably have no business being here, I would just like to point out that while Ephesians 5:21 does talk about wives submitting to their "own" husbands, there is a greater admonition one verse before that says "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.", v. 20. There is a real sense that husbands and wives submit to each other in marriage; with such solid submission, there is less of a chance of argumentation and it also seems to purify the pursuit of God and meeting the needs of others. :)
Ha ha ... I actually had an intro on my first videos but then I realized how annoying it is to have to sit through even 5 seconds of an intro when watching other folks vids so that's why I ditched it.
Its important to recognize that although this idea of submission to a husband sounds good, if he has not been taught to rule a family in a just and honorable manner then its then wife's job to recognize that and make her decision based on that. Men who aren't raised in a god loving household or have never seen it in the male figures around them will have a hard time and could lead their family astray. It's all about building character in our youth in my opinion. That's where you need to start.
@@thesaintmustwalkalone708 I think this has nothing to do with respect. Relationships are not about giving everything up to your partner. Especially not if it's one-way. There is a difference between paying attention to your partner's needs and letting them force ther point of view on you. The will of a person should only go so far that the personal integrity of another person is not violated.
@@KaikiasLP I was just referring Biblical concepts. Those who do not agree with the Bible will disagree with me. I'm not worried about losing rights or not. I love my family... I want to serve them above myself. If my husband were to request something immoral, I wouldn't follow and I'd tell him. But I wouldn't cause a fuss to wear something he didn't like.
@@thesaintmustwalkalone708 Okay, didn't catch that. I think that is totally fine and I respect your strength in how you seem to live up to your beliefs. My criticism begins at the point where someone tries to impose a personal felt moral obligation on someone else and begins to condemn that person for not living by their own proposed standards. I am totally fine to live however I like. But my own way of live can never be taken as an objective truth. Not that you do that but a lot of belief systems that are embedded in culture are based on that. I believe you that you would oppose a morally questionable action or demand. But for me its not so much about morality than about structures that are hidden deeper. Especially the psychological footprint of social role models and society's expecation of individuals are so immensly hard to recognise and act against. And I can see where someone who believes that these "traditional" role models seem good and valuable doesn't feel any need to act against them but I found it to be critical for not getting stuck in something to reevaluate my "strong beliefs" if that makes sense. Thanks for your attention.
Well said. I am a traditional housewife and somehow we get blamed for wanting to go back to the fifties. But I just want to listen to what the Bible says and that's timeless. I do love a bit of fashion though, but always in a modest way. God bless you and lovely video
While feminism's true aim is equality (among women and among men), there are some people who have derived their own, poor meaning of it where they think women should be above men, and that women who aren't working or earning a lot or whatever are 'disprespecting' their brand of feminism. Thankfully it's not MOST people who think like this. It's incredibly ironic considering a woman who wants to stay at home and be more traditional... not respecting that and not wanting her to do so is to take away the concept of choice which feminism is largely based on /:
Do you want to get beat up by your husband , don't have bank account, no able to choose to have a job if you need it and don't be able to get divorced if your being abused.
"Fashion is so stupid" oh heavens yes! High heels are horrible for the spine & posture and are just another expression of vanity, superiority and wealth, IMO. Personally, I find going barefoot when can keeps a person well-grounded. Literally.
I believe marriage and male/female "roles" shouldn't be based on gender at all but a team working together however that best suits them. In my marriage, like someone else mentioned, my husband and I split things based on our work schedules. Right now I'm a stay at home Mom and I am willing to take on more because I have been a working Mom before and I know when my husband gets home he's tired. He helps where he can. Last night I was feeding our baby so he saw we needed the towels folded and he folded them without being asked. I usually cook because even when I worked I usually was home first before him, his jobs are longer/later than mine had been. He often helps me with the baby in whatever way he can, also. High heels are incredibly ludicrous, I am 5'11" tall anyways but even if I were a shorter female I don't think I'd want to bother with uncomfortable shoes. Plenty of nice looking shoes don't have high heels.
Kinda off topic but when I was in year 7 in primary school my teacher was very tall. I don’t know exactly how tall but she was taller then most of the male teachers and parents. Still she wore high heels everyday. I guess she just really liked how they looked but she really towered over all of us kids. You’d think you would want to be closer to all the young kids you were teaching.
Thank you for your upload and your input on this subject :) as woman I personally enjoy some more traditional roles however I don't think I would feel comfortable or at peace with the man I am going marry or married to making the big decisions as I believe strongly that the couple should find a way to make the decisions that affect the family and household together, it is challenging but well worth it. Furthermore there will always be some men that do not honor or respect their wife and I believe Women are so capable of leading a household & their family well with or without their husband as there are lot of everyday examples of this. That being said I understand it fully depends on the couple or on the person and on their circumstances , what they believe in etc. and what works well for them . These believes and lifestyles work very well for some couples , so to each their own follow your bliss :)
My husband and I began with a Christian marriage. All would be worked out, because divorce was never going to be an option. We weren’t but a few months in when he started with the belittling, ignoring, and disrespect. We were never going to divorce, so he felt he had carte blanche to be as selfish as he liked. He denied being selfish, all his put downs were simply the truth, and as far as he was concerned there were no problems in the marriage. If I felt there were, they were my problems and I could get help if I wanted. No, he wouldn’t come to counseling with me because he didn’t have any problems. I was very young and am sure I made plenty of mistakes and didn’t handle things well. This continued 8 years. We are now divorced, which was my fault because I left. It’s wonderful when both people are committed to the same goals and keep those commitments.
may I ask why you feel it is your fault? Because reading your story (and I know there are three sides to each story) .... sounds like it was his fault -- if he kept up with his wedding vows, you would probably be still married today -- abuse is should not be tolerated! And it looks like you were being emotionally abused! I hope you were able to get counseling and move on with your life :-)
I love your eloquence and wisdom! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight into your life! If I may ask, how does your community view/deal with domestic violence and abuse? Given what you said about respect and honour, I assume domestic violence would be seen quite negatively, but would love to hear your thoughts
Hi Laura ,we are a Team both with inputs both with ideas each of us get things right and wrong at times some times heated some times with laughter == life no domination just two people who love each other and God.
Everyone is different. Personally people who choose the tradlife and religious mores have no argument from me. Very admirable. However, people who commit to a spouse and still want to be able to express individual preferences (maybe feeling more confident in high heels or being more comfortable in pants) without worrying about being overruled on biblical or religious basis by their male partner, are also not wrong. As a secular person, if I found myself in this situation, I must admit I'd probably choose the shoes over the spouse. Pre-marital counseling definitely needed?
I am really familiar with "Trad" community. Things that are common are Traditional Latin Mass, some that are independent pre Vatican catholic churches. Long hair, no makeup, ultra modest clothes, veils, women stay home and support husband's as a help meet. There are some couples where the husband has become very dominant and abusive to his family. Women just do not wear high heals, jewelry or buy fancy clothes in this community. If you do not have a big family or family who fits the mold there can be whispers. A woman with flashy clothes wouldn't be told to go home but they might turn a back or just not be fully welcome. Few priests say anything about it, just pre Vatican independent priests. There is sspv in New York. Lovely people. The people take it too far.
👍🏻. Totally agree with everything you said. Unfortunately majority of people are like sheep they just follow what is perceived a Trend. I am just wondering where will this lead humanity to. .?
Following the masses from one liberal societal trend to the next leads to hell. Not just the end destination but also the conditions that we create in life by the choices we make.
Translated from the greek, 'i de gyni na fovetai ton andra'; foveitai meaning; 'to be afraid of;' nevertheless, fovetai in classical greek means' to respect' . One can also see 'fovos Kyriou' which does not mean 'to be afraid of the Lord', but 'to respect the Lord.
I would be willing to bet that if a husband asks his wife not to wear high heels, it because he is concerned about the health of her feet. I have met many women with injuries from high heel shoes.
or they were not just 'high heels' , rather the six inch high heels that are popular today -- and part of the problem with that is -- like you mentioned, the foot damage that can be done -
what are the aspects of life where the "my husband is the leader in our team" thing applies? because there are decisions i wouldn't let my partner make for me, not because i don't trust him but because it's not his decision to make.
she mentioned 'honor' for the husband -- and for most husbands, they are smart enough to realize that the wife knows better in some situation -- and that is their decision -- to let the wife decide. :-)
I took that as meaning they make the decisions together but he leads them. In a democracy everyone gets equal say but you need someone to stand at the front and say who’s turn it is to speak and let everyone know what’s happening otherwise everyone just talks over each other and it’s chaos. That’s the sort of thing I thought she meant.
The problem has always been that mankind tends to read the Bible like satan. When tempting Jesus in the wilderness, satan used scripture to back up what he was prodding Jesus to do. Man reads “Wives submit to your husbands” and he assumes that gives him licence to do as he wishes with her. But what he fails to realize is that (as Jesus quoted back to satan) “It is also written” ...husbands are not to be harsh with their wives, husbands are to honor their wives, husbands are to live with their wives in an understanding way, husbands are to love their wives and sacrificially lay down their lives for them, husbands are to love their wives the same way he cares for himself, husbands are to nurture and care for their wives the same way they do themselves. (Yes, literally every single bit of that instruction for husbands is written in the Bible.) Man reads that the husband is the wife’s authority and he assumes that means he may rule over and domineer her. But he fails to realize (“it is also written...”) Jesus had some pointed and specific words to speak to those in authority about how they are to behave towards those they are over. “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves. (Luke 22:25-27) If you break up the Bible into little parts and pieces, you can justify almost anything. Satan has done so for centuries.
My take on this (what we me and my husband do!!) is this- I make all choices in the home. My husband makes all choices outside of the home. In practice is goes somewhat like this- I decide home decor, house rules, what we have for dinner. What our schedule looks like. My husband makes choices for us like our sources of income--i.e. if he does or doesn’t take a promotion, if he changes jobs, or decides to invest somewhere- he decides where we may move because of his career, he freely decides what car (or toys) he wants or needs with out my ‘approval’. It works for us because although we of course discuss everything, he makes the bigger life choices and I take care of the details (as always). I feel peace knowing that I’m submitting to my husband and following his leadership & his life plan for our life. Meanwhile he also gives me free reign on my own “jurisdiction” if you will. And I give him reign in his “jurisdiction”. It works for us.
It isn’t relevant if you honour your wife or not as your ideas and opinions are still valid what he has to say is as important as what you say and your desicians should be in agreement and come down to a joint descian if he’s the neck and your the head and you don’t want the head to turn he should respect that and not go over you, it’s comforting to women to believe what you believe but that means holding onto resentment or disagreements if he doesn’t respect your asking you feel stuck and feed the lie to yourself he knows what’s best and sometimes men don’t and they can be thoughtless so I don’t think it works, my mum wanted to study my dad wasn’t sure but my mum really wanted to do it so she did, he didn’t stop her from following her dreams she’s an independent feminist and she respects the marriage it’s mutual respect and sharing the responsibility and decisions.
Obedience implies a hierarchical structure. The concept rests on the assumption that the leader will be impeccable in his or her character, and fair in all his/her dealings with a spouse, and with children. Unfortunately, it is the nature of men and women to be deeply flawed. The reality imposes itself on the theory, often with unhappy results. You cannot be a partner with someone who holds power over you. You can serve under them, or work for them, or obey them, but not partner with them.
what each should be doing is dressing in a way that you respect the other spouse... dressing modest and leaving certain parts of your body (both male and female) to be seen by only their spouse (and medical personal as needed)
I would be fine with my husband kindly asking me not to wear stuff if it makes him uncomfortable because I know we all have different preferences. As long as it is not too big of a request because if he hated everything I wear then he shouldn’t of married me. But if he demanded I wear certain things I would not be ok with it. And I might ask my husband to wear things if I think he looks good in it or request him not wear something if it makes me uncomfortable. Like I know it makes me uncomfortable when men go shirtless in public like at the pool, I don’t like seeing men’s nipples so I would request him to wear a swimming costume top. But if he doesn’t want to then that’s fine and I would be fine with him making requests like that also. But I do hope to marry someone who shares the same values as me so I hope we see eye to eye without needing to make requests.
Hi Laura, does the Bruderhof have women leaders? Do you engage in politics, voting in local elections? Would you be allowed to vote for a female president or prime minister? I note that in the current pandemic, female-led countries like Taiwan, New Zealand and Germany are best-in-class, while male leaders like Trump and Boris Johnson have been disastrous. I would be very interested in your thoughts. And by the way, as a man I would have a lot of confidence in you as a leader.
In some cultures / religions (which I won’t name) it turned that way. That’s the sign of a failed system. And indeed if you look at their countries, they have failed.
Imagine thinking that as an adult you can't do whatever you (as long as it's legal, doesn't hurt anyone etc.) want just because of what's between your legs.
I’ve worn high heels before because they were cute. I wouldn’t of worn them if they were very uncomfortable but they were not uncomfortable. They weren’t like 6inch stilettos, they had a wide heel and weren’t too high so they were easy to walk in. It felt no different comfort wise to wearing flats. I like wearing chunky platform shoes a lot because I think they’re cute and it makes me happy.
So it sounds like the importance of working ones whole life to gain Social Security, and to save for one's retirement is not pertinent in the Bruderhof community, right? The older members wil be taken care of without those two things....I am envious of that feature....
This is 8 months after the fact but if it’s the case that I think that you are talking about the couple wasn’t married at the time. Essentially the fiancé was over stepping boundaries that was the problem. At that point only her father had any authority over her.
if they weren't compatible , it is a good thing they found out before they said ' I do'... either giving them the opportunity to resolve the issue or to end the relationship....
I think in the Twitter argument, the husband really cares about and honors his wife. That is why he told her to wear flat shoes instead of high heels, because modesty brings a woman self respect. She does not need to look super pretty to impress the world, but her beauty shines through in her behavior and a gentle confidence that she is who she is (1 Peter 3: 1-7). It is not about "oppressing" women in controlling how they dress. Modesty is about anti-materialism and not chasing the latest fashions all the time and being humble.
@paisleyyama heels go with literally anything, dont you know the fashion nowadays? or are you stuck in the times where ankles were thought to be sexy? He must be very insecure to be so worried about what SHOES his wife is wearing. I mean of all the things!? Now cleavage, thats understandable because boobs (men and womens boobs) in my opinion are private parts. But when you are so fixated on something so stupid and trivial thats when you are being controlling.
Modesty is a made up patriarchal concept that is most often applied to women because men feel like they have ownership of women in their lives. Self-respect is not and should not be tied to what you do or don’t wear. It’s about behaviours and attitudes, not aesthetics. We need to stop telling women that their worth lies in the clothes they wear because it’s misogynistic.
The entrance of the woman with equal rights into practical modern life, her new freedom, her finding herself side by side with men in the streets, offices, professions, factories, sports, and now even in political and military life, is one of those dissolutive phenomena in which, in most cases, it is difficult to perceive anything positive. In essence, all this is simply the renunciation of the woman's right to be a woman. Julius evola
I liked your reference to the sickening "patriarchy". Yes men do want to be listened to. I spent this morning listening to a ww2 Omaha veteran. He didn't want to talk about it until he felt he had to for the sake of younger generations who might forget. It's challenging being a 'patriarch', esp since without a true group male identity in the world (greet everyone with a kiss of love?) men struggle to support each other. Christianity makes the best umbrella. Forgiveness is not the patch over the moth hole it's a new umbrella entirely in the present. How one makes use of one's gifts is the ultimate obedience. Fear Him; fear not. Let's hope 2020 has new vision for all. 🙏
Yes that’s right. How can you honour and dominate at the same time? I think in many ways, because of the way God made them, women are already projecting themselves in a submissive way to men, which regrettably isn’t apparent to all men, as perhaps it was in yesteryear. A century ago compared to today it was common practice for women to project an image of modesty of dress suggesting chastity. And this resulted in men feeling important protecting them with great courtesy. A wise wife by subscribing to the wise advice given in scripture can be the key to having a happy home with those measures of submission that are necessary to achieve this. Men need to feel admired by their wives which is achieved by respecting him. Men interpret respect as being admiration. A man that feels greatly admired by his wife will love her for it. That respect breeds love. You ladies who wisely cover your heads are sending a sign of respect in general to men but particularly so towards your husbands which is a way of reverencing them.
Godis Love But what does that mean, from a man’s perspective? If it means it’s just a one sided point of view that’s biased and unfair, then we have a problem don’t we. However if we take into consideration all the ramifications, that pertain to man, resulting from his interaction with women and his understanding of them, then women will know how to best comport themselves, in order that they might give themselves the best chance of a happy life. And really, isn’t it for the sake of congenial domesticity that a wise wife wisely submits to her husband as the bible instructs. Those who are lovers of truth, which will never be many, but for the few men who are candidates for it, they should be told the truth regarding the harlot’s lie, albeit it’s a rather difficult subject to broach and discuss. Men would be better off if they actually realised that women are not hankering for sexual intercourse. Men feel very important believing the false idea that women are secretly desirous of gaining sexual satisfaction, otherwise known as the prostitutes lie. And as a prostitute must be a faker to get business, so too it seems that today’s women have to fake their desires with immodest dress, so men can feel important. And these resulting feelings of importance or desire to be important acquired by men, is such that it invariably prevents them from thinking rationally, about this rather awkward topic. They believe the lie that women would really like to see unclothed men, falsely substantiated by those unclothed male reviews, attended by unwise women who attend, because it’s such an hysterical hoot, observing men posing provocatively in those ridiculous poses. This isn’t a very pleasant subject to discuss, however suffice to say, it’s probably going to be a wise move for wise wives to straiten out their husbands misconceptions, but only if they are up for it, otherwise they shouldn’t do it. Of the two ways for men to feel important regarding women, the one of protecting them is the preferred option. This is the safe peaceful way for women but it also happens to be the truthful way. The reason why men feel important around women dressed immodestly is they are unwittingly imagining sexual behaviour which always makes them feel important. And it makes them feel important because of the submissiveness that’s required on the part of women when they partake in such sex activities. I say it’s better for men to feel important protecting women and showing them much deference, as they did in days gone by, than feeling important imagining the inferiority of women in the submissive state that pertains to sex.
@@paulwilfridhunt I agree with you in many ways although I'm not familiar with the "harlots lie" terminology. I don't find the subject at all difficult either. I think I'd rather hear a woman tell me some of the things you've mentioned (im not holding my breath tho) rather than a any man. I'd like to hear a woman's thoughts. I'm from Plymouth originally where we have a small brethren community. All the women wear some sort of head garment. I find them almost as distracting as I might lingerie. The hair is a crowning glory, the breasts were like bunches of grapes etc etc and partial covering is more eye/mind catching than being unclothed. At the extremes we have Hijab and naked Scandinavian saunas. Sex and attractiveness is quite normal and yes women do use their sexuality to procure. But so do men.
@@paulwilfridhunt and I object slightly to the use of 'submissiveness'. Reception is a submission but it's mutual. Besides which not all of the Karma Sutra has the female weighted down by man. In some countries they use clitoridectomy which is surely a sin - even just to logic. The sexually expressive female is not by definition a harlot.
Godis Love The term “harlot lie” is my own poor invention hence you’ve never heard it before. Even the wise observer and understander of women, seeing women displaying their natural capacity to be submissive, so that men might be accommodated, rather than seem to be at odds with them, will also be appreciative of women’s outward displays such as head coverings, because such a display sends a good signal of respect to men giving them peace. We tend to abhor the term submissiveness because of its connotations of inferiority, but are we not all inferior on some level to some others. I am old and all my spent years means I have less years in the bank to spend. And therefore my less is inferior to the superior amount to those who have more years. Hence my inferiority in this category. If we are servants of God serving others on behalf of God, we would not say that we were superior to those who we are serving in all submission. The Bible uses the term submit in relation to marriage. Finally let me say this. Women know that men like sex. And because they provide it for them it doesn’t necessarily mean that they too like sex as men do. If men realised that women were providing it, giving men what they want, they would be wiser.
My elderly neighbor was with his wife for over sixty years before they both passed. Once he told me that they came to an understanding when they were newlyweds. He would make all the big decisions and she would make all the small ones. Then he looked me in the eye and said “would you believe in sixty years we never had a big decision?”
That's great!
HAHAHA wait, is it because she/both made the decisions?
That’s the most awesome thing I’ve heard around this debate.
that is the sweetest thing!
I love how open to interpretation this is.
To each his own. The idea of different roles in a marriage for a husband and wife is strange to me. I suppose this to be fairly common in religious communities. My husband and I are atheists, and from the beginning, agreed to an egalitarian relationship. We don't have any specific roles or tasks because of our gender. So, for instance, years ago, I did all the cooking and shopping, because I got home from work before he did, and it just seemed logical to have dinner ready. Then I got very ill, and he took over those tasks--and, almost every other task in our home, which he does to this day, because of my ongoing illness. (As it happens, my husband is a wonderful cook, and me...not so much.) We make all our decisions together. We've been married 37 years, so this model has worked for us.
I love this kind of marriage
@Jacquline Ard “Egalitarian relationships are becoming more popular in the Western countries whether they are patriarchal or not (the United States is very patriarchal, but it is expected for women to work full-time and have children).”
Just a reminder here: in the U.S., when I was growing up in the ‘50s and ‘60s, women were NOT expected to work. My mother was the only working mother I knew. No other mother in our entire neighborhood block--or in my parents’ very large group of friends--worked. When I started going to college in the ‘60s, the 'accepted' jobs for women were teachers and nurses. Women couldn’t even open their own bank accounts. And, of course, the biggie: women could not legally get abortions. As a result, there were many sad stories of botched back-alley abortions.
“Not always, but often, egalitarian relationships work out because both partners are a little more androgynous in personality.”
Oh my. That’s a very strange conclusion. Not sure where you come up with that idea.
“Traditional gender roles should not be a strange concept when you consider how in most workplaces everyone has a role to play (factories, banks, restaurants, hospitals etc).”
Not so much as the culture is evolving. For instance, now, doctors are often women. Nurses are often men. Also, regarding restaurants, how do you explain that men typically have held the role of chef-a role you would probably consider to be more of a female role? It’s only in recent years that women have been more accepted as chefs. Basically, it is the culture that has dictated roles for men and women, rather than inherent abilities. I’m glad that a changing culture has resulted in more opportunities for women. And, by the way, I’m not saying that women 'should' work outside the home. Rather, they should at least be able to choose.
It’s not strange to you. Your husband is literally the one responsible for the fact that you’re alive at all. You owe everything to him.
I have roles I would prefer to have in a relationship but it has nothing to do with gender, it’s just my personal preference. I don’t think men should do some thing and women should do others, I don’t care what other people do in their relationships, it’s just what I personally want in a partner. A lot of my preferences do line up with more traditional gender roles but that’s just coincidental.
It’s just about what I enjoy doing and what I don’t enjoy doing. And I hope I find someone who enjoys doing the things I dislike doing because then we can both be happy and do things we enjoy. I believe we should both have equal workload and responsibilities but we’re not necessarily both doing a bit of everything. I don’t enjoy cleaning so I hope my husband does enjoy cleaning. I hope that I can do all the cooking and then he can cleanup after the meal.
In school in cooking class I would always take lead of doing the cooking because that’s what I enjoyed and then my friends would take lead cleaning up because they enjoyed cleaning. Sometimes when my friends came over to my house they would clean my room because they enjoyed doing it lol. My room wasn’t messy but they wanted to clean any little mess they could find because they enjoyed doing it.
I would like it if my husband could be the breadwinner because I would prefer to be able to spend more time with my children and I do find a working man attractive. But I do still want my husband to be involved in our children’s lives and I recognise many men do want to spend more time with their kids so I’m happy to work so he can take time off to spend with the kids and also just for some time for himself. I don’t mind too much because there are careers that I like too.
I just hope to find my opposite so we can complete eachother. I do the things he dislikes and he does the things I dislike. But if I fall in love with a man who also dislikes the same things as me, so be it, I can do those things if it’s for someone I love. Except doing the dishes, that’s a non negotiable. Seeing wet food makes me want to throw up. I’m fine for him to cook if he loves cooking but he’s also got to do the dishes.
@@rachelcookie321 😨
The bottom line when determining if there's oppression (whether to a subtle or gross degree) is considering how power is used/shared/distributed. And, while your community seems to share power with Christ-like intentions in many ways, when it comes to gender, that is not the whole story - aka, there are clearly some blindnesses. Luckily for you and your sisters, the ways that women are limited/restricted in your community is unlikely to mirror the violence that usually accompanies these same limitations/restrictions in other communities because of the peaceful way your community interprets/understands the bible and Jesus' teachings. Nonetheless, we are called to honesty in all things and while the degree of gender oppression you are living in is subtle and therefore less dangerous (though not completely peaceful and therefore still a source of some harm), it would be a lie to say it isn't there at all. Personally, it is less the existence of the shortcomings in regards to what your community makes possible for people based on their gender (because obviously whenever women, or any other group, are controlled, the group put in the controlling position are harmed too - albeit in less obvious ways) and more the lack of honesty about this dynamic that I am responding to.
Do you still consider it oppression if women choose to live with certain roles willingly and joyfully?
You could make the argument that they don’t know any different so they can’t make an informed choice, but I personally think that’s not giving them enough credit. They live in the modern world and see the way others do things. They could leave if they wanted to. Many of them do leave. But many choose this life and seem very happy with their choices.
Yah said that there's no male or female in Christ because all are one, meaning Yah and Christ regard both equally. Gal 3:28
One of the reasons that a woman's role in marriage is traditionally centered around the home is due to women's biological makeup that requires her to be in close proximity to her children. While this role can be shifted later on as needed, the actions of both the male and the female are to be in honor to Yah, as well as constructive thinking and sustainability. The type of woman that Yah wants female believers to emulate is depicted in Prov 31. In that passage the woman cares for her household while also conducting business and land ownership. However, whatever a woman decides to do it should not be given greater importance than the needs of her family. The man is to also put the needs of his family in a superior position as is stated in 1 Tim 5:8. However, Yah has designated role for each species on earth and roles for each gender within each species. This is in order to maintain constructivity and sustainability as is required in Gen 1:26 & 28 & Gen 6:9. Human beings have two innate qualities one towards constructive thinking and the other towards hyper-emotionalism. While we're free to choose between the two the rewards of our decision will have much weight. In order for humans to be constructive there's a certain amount of self sacrifice required. Some would see this as restrictive or oppressive, but without it humans would fall into degredation, which in and of itself is a form of oppression.
I think, at the end of the day, it all boils down to what works for your family. If being a SAHM/tradwife is what you want to do and is feasible for your family, then go for it. I think it becomes a problem when the ability to make choices or have a say is taken away from one person by the other. A husband shouldn't deny his wife a career because he wants her to stay home, and a wife shouldn't demand to stay home if the husband doesn't think they can afford to live off one income.
At it's core, the problem with 'obey' the head of the household, and the head always being the default male, is it assumes the male has the woman's best interests at heart. Unfortunately, that is often not true. That's why the best system is one with more equal power sharing, so that each party cannot impose their interests over the other's, they must negotiate. This causes each party to take the other's interests into account far more than any rhetoric or bible. As a society, women have realized this, and started advocating for more egalitarian relationships, so this way of life is no the way out. Women have simply seen from experience that 'man as head' often practically means 'wife devalued'
"You can't honor and dominate someone at the same time" Well said.
It's not as black and white as that.
Whether viewed from on high or from down low, the physiological childbearers will always submit to the dictates of the physiological providers of the human species.
The logic of the Bible's directive for wives to submit to their husbands within the confines of holy matrimony cannot be understood outside of a God-centered marriage.
1. Without God, marriage and existence itself is a moot point.
2. The opposite of obedience is rebellion. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
3. A marriage is a union between a man and a woman in the eyes of God wherein the two become 'one flesh' for the purpose of human reproduction. Children, whose genetic make-up is one half of each parent, are the fruit of such unions.
4. There is an order to the universe that incorporates a '1-2-3 Principle'. For example...
PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE
PROTON-NEUTRON-ELECTRON
HEIGHT-WIDTH-DEPTH
THESIS-SYNTHESIS-ANTITHESIS
FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT
FATHER-CHILD-MOTHER
GROWTH-HARVEST-DECAY
BIRTH-LIFE-DEATH
ORDER-BALANCE-CHAOS
In a union that is designed to create new life, there is an intrinsic 1-2-3 order which is ordained by God, the author of all nature, in order to bring forth new life.
1. One parent is the designated 'childbearer'.
2. One parent is the designated 'provider'.
3. Both parents combined are required for new life to exist...and must exist in physical, mental and spiritual harmony.
4. The provider parent is endowed by God with greater strength, greater endurance and a greater ability to deal with a chaotic and often dangerous environment which can threaten the family unit. This parent is designed to wage war against anything and everything that threatens new life.
5. The childbearing parent was created by God to physically bear and nurture new life. This parent cannot do it's job effectively if it constantly threatened from the outside.
6. The provider parent provides necessities from the environment...food, water, shelter from the elements...but most importantly...SECURITY FROM EXTERNAL THREATS.
The provider parent cannot do it's job effectively if it is countermanded or undermined from within by the childbearing parent.
Therefore the childbearing parent must submit to the provider parent as a general rule otherwise there can be no fruitful union.
7. HUMAN MALES are the designated PROVIDER PARENT.
8. HUMAN FEMALES are the designated CHILDBEARING PARENT.
9. There can be no physiological fruitful human existence without BOTH PARENTS.
10. From time immemorial, all tribes, cities, cultures, nation states and ideological socio-economic infrastructures are devised, sustained and destroyed by human males.
11. While there have been female rulers of tribes, cities, nation states, etc...there are currently no viable female devised social orders that are in evidence today.
Whether a childbearing parent submits to the provider parent or not...the childbearer will submit to the provider parent's legacy of social order devices...which may or may not tolerate rebellion by the childbearers as it so wills.
12. Confusion is not of God.
Inbetween the extremes of 'black and white' are various 'gray areas' which are akin to confused states of mind.
Wives submit to your husbands...and husbands honor your wives...leaves no gray areas.
@@garyedwards3269 actually, when you look at the biological evidence, men are expendable and women are made to last. Men have no fat reserves and their reproduction, while it goes on longer, is interchangeable. One men's seed is good as the others. Whereas women are built to outlast famine and bond closely to others, therefor being essential to the tribe. Loosing a woman is more devistating in terms of being able to reproduce than loosing a man. Women's brain make-up is also better suited, commonly, for bigger decisions and a broader outlook, while men are better at the details. This is to due with grey vs white matter.
There is strong evidence that before the agrarian period, men and women lived in groups that would have the women together hunting and foraging, protecting themselves, and men pairing up with only a few others who would draw wider circles around their trible, visiting different ones to prevent narrowing the gene pool. You can find all of this information in libraries, if you like.
@@Shasha-jo5iv ...Men are not expendable. They're required for reproduction as well as providing food and protection.
Don't confuse transient tribal methods with the immutable laws of nature. Tribal habits and customs varied from tribe to tribe.
Women as warriors were the exception, not the rule, because they were physiologically outclassed. Common sense dictated what roles men and women abided by within the tribe during war and peace.
@@garyedwards3269 why cant we just exist and do what we love without telling eachother how to be or what to do when it doesnt hurt themselves or others? Obsessing over how others live is not a good sign of maturity tbh
Your thoughts about honor are so profound; thank you for your words. (And I also never wear high heels---I always want to be able to run fast, whether from something or to something!)
Im so happy that my husband is not like that. I can wear the shoes that i want.
I love hearing you speak Laura
Thank you!
❤❤👊
While I understand my Egalitarian thoughts probably have no business being here, I would just like to point out that while Ephesians 5:21 does talk about wives submitting to their "own" husbands, there is a greater admonition one verse before that says "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.", v. 20.
There is a real sense that husbands and wives submit to each other in marriage; with such solid submission, there is less of a chance of argumentation and it also seems to purify the pursuit of God and meeting the needs of others. :)
This is true. Thank you!
Yes, both are supposed to submit to God and to view each other in that light.
I love that you get right in to the video and don't have an annoying cringey intro :)
Ha ha ... I actually had an intro on my first videos but then I realized how annoying it is to have to sit through even 5 seconds of an intro when watching other folks vids so that's why I ditched it.
Its important to recognize that although this idea of submission to a husband sounds good, if he has not been taught to rule a family in a just and honorable manner then its then wife's job to recognize that and make her decision based on that. Men who aren't raised in a god loving household or have never seen it in the male figures around them will have a hard time and could lead their family astray. It's all about building character in our youth in my opinion. That's where you need to start.
Sure, but you may also win him over by giving up your high heeled shoes and show him respect. Women do not have to treat every sacrafice as a doormat.
@@thesaintmustwalkalone708 I think this has nothing to do with respect. Relationships are not about giving everything up to your partner. Especially not if it's one-way. There is a difference between paying attention to your partner's needs and letting them force ther point of view on you. The will of a person should only go so far that the personal integrity of another person is not violated.
@@KaikiasLP I was just referring Biblical concepts. Those who do not agree with the Bible will disagree with me.
I'm not worried about losing rights or not. I love my family... I want to serve them above myself. If my husband were to request something immoral, I wouldn't follow and I'd tell him. But I wouldn't cause a fuss to wear something he didn't like.
@@thesaintmustwalkalone708 Okay, didn't catch that. I think that is totally fine and I respect your strength in how you seem to live up to your beliefs. My criticism begins at the point where someone tries to impose a personal felt moral obligation on someone else and begins to condemn that person for not living by their own proposed standards. I am totally fine to live however I like. But my own way of live can never be taken as an objective truth. Not that you do that but a lot of belief systems that are embedded in culture are based on that. I believe you that you would oppose a morally questionable action or demand. But for me its not so much about morality than about structures that are hidden deeper. Especially the psychological footprint of social role models and society's expecation of individuals are so immensly hard to recognise and act against. And I can see where someone who believes that these "traditional" role models seem good and valuable doesn't feel any need to act against them but I found it to be critical for not getting stuck in something to reevaluate my "strong beliefs" if that makes sense. Thanks for your attention.
Well said. I am a traditional housewife and somehow we get blamed for wanting to go back to the fifties. But I just want to listen to what the Bible says and that's timeless. I do love a bit of fashion though, but always in a modest way. God bless you and lovely video
While feminism's true aim is equality (among women and among men), there are some people who have derived their own, poor meaning of it where they think women should be above men, and that women who aren't working or earning a lot or whatever are 'disprespecting' their brand of feminism. Thankfully it's not MOST people who think like this. It's incredibly ironic considering a woman who wants to stay at home and be more traditional... not respecting that and not wanting her to do so is to take away the concept of choice which feminism is largely based on /:
Do you want to get beat up by your husband , don't have bank account, no able to choose to have a job if you need it and don't be able to get divorced if your being abused.
"Fashion is so stupid" oh heavens yes!
High heels are horrible for the spine & posture and are just another expression of vanity, superiority and wealth, IMO.
Personally, I find going barefoot when can keeps a person well-grounded. Literally.
I just dig comfy..sweat pants in the winter r my fave💖
I like comfy fashion
I think we should just wear what makes us happy and not judge someone's character based solely on wether we approve of their shoe choice or not
None of the women I met at Beechgrove Community were subservient. On the contrary I saw strength and strong women. I loved it there.
I believe marriage and male/female "roles" shouldn't be based on gender at all but a team working together however that best suits them. In my marriage, like someone else mentioned, my husband and I split things based on our work schedules. Right now I'm a stay at home Mom and I am willing to take on more because I have been a working Mom before and I know when my husband gets home he's tired. He helps where he can. Last night I was feeding our baby so he saw we needed the towels folded and he folded them without being asked. I usually cook because even when I worked I usually was home first before him, his jobs are longer/later than mine had been. He often helps me with the baby in whatever way he can, also. High heels are incredibly ludicrous, I am 5'11" tall anyways but even if I were a shorter female I don't think I'd want to bother with uncomfortable shoes. Plenty of nice looking shoes don't have high heels.
Kinda off topic but when I was in year 7 in primary school my teacher was very tall. I don’t know exactly how tall but she was taller then most of the male teachers and parents. Still she wore high heels everyday. I guess she just really liked how they looked but she really towered over all of us kids. You’d think you would want to be closer to all the young kids you were teaching.
Thank you for your upload and your input on this subject :) as woman I personally enjoy some more traditional roles however I don't think I would feel comfortable or at peace with the man I am going marry or married to making the big decisions as I believe strongly that the couple should find a way to make the decisions that affect the family and household together, it is challenging but well worth it. Furthermore there will always be some men that do not honor or respect their wife and I believe Women are so capable of leading a household & their family well with or without their husband as there are lot of everyday examples of this. That being said I understand it fully depends on the couple or on the person and on their circumstances , what they believe in etc. and what works well for them . These believes and lifestyles work very well for some couples , so to each their own follow your bliss :)
Yeah, well just because you promise to honor someone doesn't mean in any way that you will do so.
Yeah, but just cause you promised to be obedient to someone doesn't mean you always will be also.
You're so beautiful and smart. You both have created beautiful Family. God bless you! 🙏🌺
Thank you so much!
My husband and I began with a Christian marriage. All would be worked out, because divorce was never going to be an option. We weren’t but a few months in when he started with the belittling, ignoring, and disrespect. We were never going to divorce, so he felt he had carte blanche to be as selfish as he liked. He denied being selfish, all his put downs were simply the truth, and as far as he was concerned there were no problems in the marriage. If I felt there were, they were my problems and I could get help if I wanted. No, he wouldn’t come to counseling with me because he didn’t have any problems. I was very young and am sure I made plenty of mistakes and didn’t handle things well. This continued 8 years. We are now divorced, which was my fault because I left. It’s wonderful when both people are committed to the same goals and keep those commitments.
may I ask why you feel it is your fault? Because reading your story (and I know there are three sides to each story) .... sounds like it was his fault -- if he kept up with his wedding vows, you would probably be still married today -- abuse is should not be tolerated! And it looks like you were being emotionally abused! I hope you were able to get counseling and move on with your life :-)
Hi Laura, thank you for your explanation. As always I value your honesty and openness!
I’m just wondering, in the bruderhof what happens if you feel your husband isn’t honouring you? Or vice versa?
I'd turn to someone I trust like my pastor and his wife and they'd help us resolve whatever issues we were having.
I love your eloquence and wisdom! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight into your life!
If I may ask, how does your community view/deal with domestic violence and abuse? Given what you said about respect and honour, I assume domestic violence would be seen quite negatively, but would love to hear your thoughts
she replied on another vlog that it is not tolerated -
Hi Laura ,we are a Team both with inputs both with ideas each of us get things right and wrong at times some times heated some times with laughter == life no domination just two people who love each other and God.
Sounds beautiful like what i want out of marriage
Everyone is different. Personally people who choose the tradlife and religious mores have no argument from me. Very admirable. However, people who commit to a spouse and still want to be able to express individual preferences (maybe feeling more confident in high heels or being more comfortable in pants) without worrying about being overruled on biblical or religious basis by their male partner, are also not wrong. As a secular person, if I found myself in this situation, I must admit I'd probably choose the shoes over the spouse. Pre-marital counseling definitely needed?
I wonder if there is a similarity to Hasidic Jewish culture… does anyone see a connection?
I am really familiar with "Trad" community. Things that are common are Traditional Latin Mass, some that are independent pre Vatican catholic churches. Long hair, no makeup, ultra modest clothes, veils, women stay home and support husband's as a help meet. There are some couples where the husband has become very dominant and abusive to his family. Women just do not wear high heals, jewelry or buy fancy clothes in this community. If you do not have a big family or family who fits the mold there can be whispers. A woman with flashy clothes wouldn't be told to go home but they might turn a back or just not be fully welcome. Few priests say anything about it, just pre Vatican independent priests. There is sspv in New York. Lovely people. The people take it too far.
Do you have to wear button down shirts? I find the gaps between the buttons always cause problems for me.
👍🏻. Totally agree with everything you said. Unfortunately majority of people are like sheep they just follow what is perceived a Trend. I am just wondering where will this lead humanity to. .?
Following the masses from one liberal societal trend to the next leads to hell. Not just the end destination but also the conditions that we create in life by the choices we make.
@@thomdantzer1753 Trend?
This is so amazing and spot on! You're wonderful.
thank you
Translated from the greek, 'i de gyni na fovetai ton andra'; foveitai meaning; 'to be afraid of;' nevertheless, fovetai in classical greek means' to respect' . One can also see 'fovos Kyriou' which does not mean 'to be afraid of the Lord', but 'to respect the Lord.
I would be willing to bet that if a husband asks his wife not to wear high heels, it because he is concerned about the health of her feet. I have met many women with injuries from high heel shoes.
or they were not just 'high heels' , rather the six inch high heels that are popular today -- and part of the problem with that is -- like you mentioned, the foot damage that can be done -
what are the aspects of life where the "my husband is the leader in our team" thing applies? because there are decisions i wouldn't let my partner make for me, not because i don't trust him but because it's not his decision to make.
she mentioned 'honor' for the husband -- and for most husbands, they are smart enough to realize that the wife knows better in some situation -- and that is their decision -- to let the wife decide. :-)
I took that as meaning they make the decisions together but he leads them. In a democracy everyone gets equal say but you need someone to stand at the front and say who’s turn it is to speak and let everyone know what’s happening otherwise everyone just talks over each other and it’s chaos. That’s the sort of thing I thought she meant.
The problem has always been that mankind tends to read the Bible like satan. When tempting Jesus in the wilderness, satan used scripture to back up what he was prodding Jesus to do. Man reads “Wives submit to your husbands” and he assumes that gives him licence to do as he wishes with her. But what he fails to realize is that (as Jesus quoted back to satan) “It is also written” ...husbands are not to be harsh with their wives, husbands are to honor their wives, husbands are to live with their wives in an understanding way, husbands are to love their wives and sacrificially lay down their lives for them, husbands are to love their wives the same way he cares for himself, husbands are to nurture and care for their wives the same way they do themselves. (Yes, literally every single bit of that instruction for husbands is written in the Bible.)
Man reads that the husband is the wife’s authority and he assumes that means he may rule over and domineer her. But he fails to realize (“it is also written...”) Jesus had some pointed and specific words to speak to those in authority about how they are to behave towards those they are over.
“The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
(Luke 22:25-27)
If you break up the Bible into little parts and pieces, you can justify almost anything. Satan has done so for centuries.
My take on this (what we me and my husband do!!) is this-
I make all choices in the home. My husband makes all choices outside of the home. In practice is goes somewhat like this- I decide home decor, house rules, what we have for dinner. What our schedule looks like. My husband makes choices for us like our sources of income--i.e. if he does or doesn’t take a promotion, if he changes jobs, or decides to invest somewhere- he decides where we may move because of his career, he freely decides what car (or toys) he wants or needs with out my ‘approval’.
It works for us because although we of course discuss everything, he makes the bigger life choices and I take care of the details (as always). I feel peace knowing that I’m submitting to my husband and following his leadership & his life plan for our life. Meanwhile he also gives me free reign on my own “jurisdiction” if you will. And I give him reign in his “jurisdiction”. It works for us.
That makes a lot of sense.
Sharp, precise, best take on christianity ever
PERFECT explanation!
Love this explanation!!!
It isn’t relevant if you honour your wife or not as your ideas and opinions are still valid what he has to say is as important as what you say and your desicians should be in agreement and come down to a joint descian if he’s the neck and your the head and you don’t want the head to turn he should respect that and not go over you, it’s comforting to women to believe what you believe but that means holding onto resentment or disagreements if he doesn’t respect your asking you feel stuck and feed the lie to yourself he knows what’s best and sometimes men don’t and they can be thoughtless so I don’t think it works, my mum wanted to study my dad wasn’t sure but my mum really wanted to do it so she did, he didn’t stop her from following her dreams she’s an independent feminist and she respects the marriage it’s mutual respect and sharing the responsibility and decisions.
Obedience implies a hierarchical structure. The concept rests on the assumption that the leader will be impeccable in his or her character, and fair in all his/her dealings with a spouse, and with children. Unfortunately, it is the nature of men and women to be deeply flawed. The reality imposes itself on the theory, often with unhappy results. You cannot be a partner with someone who holds power over you. You can serve under them, or work for them, or obey them, but not partner with them.
I cannot imagine either my husband or me telling the other what to wear or not wear.
what each should be doing is dressing in a way that you respect the other spouse... dressing modest and leaving certain parts of your body (both male and female) to be seen by only their spouse (and medical personal as needed)
I would be fine with my husband kindly asking me not to wear stuff if it makes him uncomfortable because I know we all have different preferences. As long as it is not too big of a request because if he hated everything I wear then he shouldn’t of married me. But if he demanded I wear certain things I would not be ok with it. And I might ask my husband to wear things if I think he looks good in it or request him not wear something if it makes me uncomfortable. Like I know it makes me uncomfortable when men go shirtless in public like at the pool, I don’t like seeing men’s nipples so I would request him to wear a swimming costume top. But if he doesn’t want to then that’s fine and I would be fine with him making requests like that also. But I do hope to marry someone who shares the same values as me so I hope we see eye to eye without needing to make requests.
what if my husband and i are a team but i am the leader? would that be seen as bad in your community?
not if you’re obeying his wish that you be the leader... ;)
Excellent video, very well said!
It would’ve been true love if he told her not to wear heels because it’s unhealthy
PREACH SISTA!
very good and true, thank you
A marriage is a partnership between two parties But the head of the unit/partnership is accountable to Jesus
Preach Sister! Preach. I love some Laura logic
Happy New Year Laura. Thank you.
See as a man I would like my future wife to listen to my word, that does not mean I am be tyrannical. You can be a merciful leader.
Personally, I prefer bare feet
Hi Laura, does the Bruderhof have women leaders? Do you engage in politics, voting in local elections? Would you be allowed to vote for a female president or prime minister? I note that in the current pandemic, female-led countries like Taiwan, New Zealand and Germany are best-in-class, while male leaders like Trump and Boris Johnson have been disastrous. I would be very interested in your thoughts. And by the way, as a man I would have a lot of confidence in you as a leader.
Good job, Laura!❤
imagine living in a time and culture where taking your husband's wishes with some obedience = "slavish submission" e_e
imagine thinking heels are immodest....oh wait you probably already think that
In some cultures / religions (which I won’t name) it turned that way. That’s the sign of a failed system. And indeed if you look at their countries, they have failed.
Imagine thinking that as an adult you can't do whatever you (as long as it's legal, doesn't hurt anyone etc.) want just because of what's between your legs.
Bravo! You are an inspiration!
Thank you! 😊
How could ANYBODY wear high heels? I would never do that, and if a man asked me to, I'd rather say goodbye to the man than to my flat shoes!
I’ve worn high heels before because they were cute. I wouldn’t of worn them if they were very uncomfortable but they were not uncomfortable. They weren’t like 6inch stilettos, they had a wide heel and weren’t too high so they were easy to walk in. It felt no different comfort wise to wearing flats. I like wearing chunky platform shoes a lot because I think they’re cute and it makes me happy.
So it sounds like the importance of working ones whole life to gain Social Security, and to save for one's retirement is not pertinent in the Bruderhof community, right? The older members wil be taken care of without those two things....I am envious of that feature....
That is the beauty of community life! We're here for each other.
You can honor and limit/objectify someone at the same time.
This is 8 months after the fact but if it’s the case that I think that you are talking about the couple wasn’t married at the time. Essentially the fiancé was over stepping boundaries that was the problem. At that point only her father had any authority over her.
if they weren't compatible , it is a good thing they found out before they said ' I do'... either giving them the opportunity to resolve the issue or to end the relationship....
Do you celebrate birthdays?
Yes! I love my birthday!
That’s good. Mind not sure how I’d celebrate mine with the Bruderhof, as it’s Christmas Day
Amen
I'm with you Laura!
Oh Laura you're definitely not repressed. You have a strong voice.
thank you☺️
I think in the Twitter argument, the husband really cares about and honors his wife. That is why he told her to wear flat shoes instead of high heels, because modesty brings a woman self respect. She does not need to look super pretty to impress the world, but her beauty shines through in her behavior and a gentle confidence that she is who she is (1 Peter 3: 1-7). It is not about "oppressing" women in controlling how they dress. Modesty is about anti-materialism and not chasing the latest fashions all the time and being humble.
Tf just let her wear heels its not immodest to wear fkn heels
@paisleyyama heels go with literally anything, dont you know the fashion nowadays? or are you stuck in the times where ankles were thought to be sexy?
He must be very insecure to be so worried about what SHOES his wife is wearing. I mean of all the things!? Now cleavage, thats understandable because boobs (men and womens boobs) in my opinion are private parts. But when you are so fixated on something so stupid and trivial thats when you are being controlling.
Modesty is a made up patriarchal concept that is most often applied to women because men feel like they have ownership of women in their lives. Self-respect is not and should not be tied to what you do or don’t wear. It’s about behaviours and attitudes, not aesthetics. We need to stop telling women that their worth lies in the clothes they wear because it’s misogynistic.
It's their choice. And it's none of your business.
You are a great preacher!
Good for that priest!
The entrance of the woman with equal rights into practical modern life, her new freedom, her finding herself side by side with men in the streets, offices, professions, factories, sports, and now even in political and military life, is one of those dissolutive phenomena in which, in most cases, it is difficult to perceive anything positive. In essence, all this is simply the renunciation of the woman's right to be a woman. Julius evola
You realize you're quoting someone who is described as a Fascist intellectual?
A real traditional wife. With real values and a realistic perspective. Thankyou for the refresher ♡
I liked your reference to the sickening "patriarchy". Yes men do want to be listened to. I spent this morning listening to a ww2 Omaha veteran. He didn't want to talk about it until he felt he had to for the sake of younger generations who might forget. It's challenging being a 'patriarch', esp since without a true group male identity in the world (greet everyone with a kiss of love?) men struggle to support each other. Christianity makes the best umbrella. Forgiveness is not the patch over the moth hole it's a new umbrella entirely in the present. How one makes use of one's gifts is the ultimate obedience. Fear Him; fear not. Let's hope 2020 has new vision for all. 🙏
AMEN
Yes that’s right. How can you honour and dominate at the same time?
I think in many ways, because of the way God made them, women are already projecting themselves in a submissive way to men, which regrettably isn’t apparent to all men, as perhaps it was in yesteryear.
A century ago compared to today it was common practice for women to project an image of modesty of dress suggesting chastity. And this resulted in men feeling important protecting them with great courtesy.
A wise wife by subscribing to the wise advice given in scripture can be the key to having a happy home with those measures of submission that are necessary to achieve this.
Men need to feel admired by their wives which is achieved by respecting him.
Men interpret respect as being admiration.
A man that feels greatly admired by his wife will love her for it.
That respect breeds love.
You ladies who wisely cover your heads are sending a sign of respect in general to men but particularly so towards your husbands which is a way of reverencing them.
That's purely a man's perspective. Demureness is wholly attractive.
Godis Love But what does that mean, from a man’s perspective?
If it means it’s just a one sided point of view that’s biased and unfair, then we have a problem don’t we.
However if we take into consideration all the ramifications, that pertain to man, resulting from his interaction with women and his understanding of them, then women will know how to best comport themselves, in order that they might give themselves the best chance of a happy life.
And really, isn’t it for the sake of congenial domesticity that a wise wife wisely submits to her husband as the bible instructs.
Those who are lovers of truth, which will never be many, but for the few men who are candidates for it, they should be told the truth regarding the harlot’s lie, albeit it’s a rather difficult subject to broach and discuss.
Men would be better off if they actually realised that women are not hankering for sexual intercourse.
Men feel very important believing the false idea that women are secretly desirous of gaining sexual satisfaction, otherwise known as the prostitutes lie.
And as a prostitute must be a faker to get business, so too it seems that today’s women have to fake their desires with immodest dress, so men can feel important.
And these resulting feelings of importance or desire to be important acquired by men, is such that it invariably prevents them from thinking rationally, about this rather awkward topic.
They believe the lie that women would really like to see unclothed men, falsely substantiated by those unclothed male reviews, attended by unwise women who attend, because it’s such an hysterical hoot, observing men posing provocatively in those ridiculous poses.
This isn’t a very pleasant subject to discuss, however suffice to say, it’s probably going to be a wise move for wise wives to straiten out their husbands misconceptions, but only if they are up for it, otherwise they shouldn’t do it.
Of the two ways for men to feel important regarding women, the one of protecting them is the preferred option.
This is the safe peaceful way for women but it also happens to be the truthful way.
The reason why men feel important around women dressed immodestly is they are unwittingly imagining sexual behaviour which always makes them feel important.
And it makes them feel important because of the submissiveness that’s required on the part of women when they partake in such sex activities.
I say it’s better for men to feel important protecting women and showing them much deference, as they did in days gone by, than feeling important imagining the inferiority of women in the submissive state that pertains to sex.
@@paulwilfridhunt I agree with you in many ways although I'm not familiar with the "harlots lie" terminology. I don't find the subject at all difficult either. I think I'd rather hear a woman tell me some of the things you've mentioned (im not holding my breath tho) rather than a any man. I'd like to hear a woman's thoughts. I'm from Plymouth originally where we have a small brethren community. All the women wear some sort of head garment. I find them almost as distracting as I might lingerie. The hair is a crowning glory, the breasts were like bunches of grapes etc etc and partial covering is more eye/mind catching than being unclothed. At the extremes we have Hijab and naked Scandinavian saunas. Sex and attractiveness is quite normal and yes women do use their sexuality to procure. But so do men.
@@paulwilfridhunt and I object slightly to the use of 'submissiveness'. Reception is a submission but it's mutual. Besides which not all of the Karma Sutra has the female weighted down by man. In some countries they use clitoridectomy which is surely a sin - even just to logic. The sexually expressive female is not by definition a harlot.
Godis Love The term “harlot lie” is my own poor invention hence you’ve never heard it before.
Even the wise observer and understander of women, seeing women displaying their natural capacity to be submissive, so that men might be accommodated, rather than seem to be at odds with them, will also be appreciative of women’s outward displays such as head coverings, because such a display sends a good signal of respect to men giving them peace.
We tend to abhor the term submissiveness because of its connotations of inferiority, but are we not all inferior on some level to some others.
I am old and all my spent years means I have less years in the bank to spend.
And therefore my less is inferior to the superior amount to those who have more years. Hence my inferiority in this category.
If we are servants of God serving others on behalf of God, we would not say that we were superior to those who we are serving in all submission.
The Bible uses the term submit in relation to marriage.
Finally let me say this.
Women know that men like sex.
And because they provide it for them it doesn’t necessarily mean that they too like sex as men do.
If men realised that women were providing it, giving men what they want, they would be wiser.
Can I clone you? I want a wife just like you.
Are you amish
No
Exactly my thoughts xD