Do you think it was smart on Minalcar's part to try and strengthen his alliance with the Northmen? And do you think the Civil War was the worst of the 3 calamities of Gondor? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
Yes, it was a smart move. Strong alliances are force multipliers. The Civil War was the worst because Gondor weakened itself all on its own; its enemies didn't have to lift a finger.
@Babes & Board Games Totally. They didn't have to be do that and so it sped up the decline of the southend Dunedain compared with their northern kin. Also it didnt help that they lost a lot of manpower and didn't have lots of children. So by the time of the war of the ring, the men of dol amroth was more of a reflection of what gondor used to be. Long lived, tall, wise, strong, lots of stamina etc.
It was a smart move, the northmen were a valiant people and good warriors, they were a usefull buffer againts the easterlings and the value of the northmen riders was great to Gondor's military. I think the mistake Gondor made was not to put more interest and resourses in making Rhovanion a more advance kingdom with more cultural conection to Gondor, but even without that, the northmen prove to be Gondor's biggest allie during the third age
@Babes & Board Games That doesn’t seem like Tolkien’s message here at all. The fault is on the purists for rebelling in the first place. The Kin-strife was entirely their doing.
This civil war show that Gondor began to suffer from an "Evil" resulting from this possible "Homogenization of the infantry": the gradual loss of mobility in the field, but as a result, the infantry, if well trained and with the maintenance of the knowledge brought by Númenor, would be more resistant to large attacks, and the more agile forces such as cavalry would decide the battle against the enemy at Lebennin and at the Crossings of the Erui which highlighted an interesting fact: Since Eldacar must have been supported by forces from Rhovanion, he must have employed a very experienced and professional cavalry against the Usurper's forces (consisting mostly, in my opinion, of infantry) and this factor must have been one of the key to the success of their cause, which demonstrated the growing importance of cavalry in a scenario that would follow for centuries to come. The first signs came from the campaign against the Wainriders, who exposed the "weakness" of Gondor against more agile and mobile forces on a battlefield conducive to such use. See the Wainriders.
This also brings to mind the issue of Dol Amroth, or to be more precise, the Lords of Dor-En-Ernil as it was known before Amroth's departure. They have pure Numenorean blood so I assume they had sided with Castamir, but are also renown knights descended from Numenor. If at this time they existed, they would be a terrifying foe to face, being able to field heavy cavalry and Numenorean Steelbows.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS While I doubt they’d support Castamir I don’t see them explicitly rejecting him until Eldacar gets closer to besiege Pelargir.
The concept of purity is an interesting one, in Tolkien's work; you could argue Melkor was a direct son and creation of Eru Iluvatar, the essence of creation, and even that great spirit was capable of corruption and evil. In the end, if the culture and way of life is compatible with the true meanings of Eru's music, it would have more valor than any bloodline lineage followed by it's children.
As alwayy amazing, great and interesting video!! Glad that Lotr content is back, I mean...it IS one tophic to rule them all! Great video, just keep going!
I think it was a decision with good intentions and great potential, but as you said, Gondor did never get back its former power. In the end, a civil war is always exceptionally devastating for any country or empire and to be prevented (although I don't think the king foresaw this).
This to me, is a political marriage. As it happened between Tarannon Falastur and Berúthiel. This marriage also ensured that Aragorn had Northern (Rohan in a way) blood. What I'm wondering is if Castamir's descendants interacted and formed blood ties with the Black Númenoreans in Umbar. Also does Sauron have anything to do with this case?
@@salez9830 I suggest you recheck the human family trees more carefully. In Aragorn's lineage, Arvedui's wife Fíriel was the daughter of Ondoher. Ondoher is also descended from Eldacar and Eldacar's mother Vidumavi is a northern human. So Aragorn has a little bit of northern blood.
@BenMedia Since the weakening of Gondor is related to these three events, I wondered if this event also had a connection with Sauron, but there is no evidence of that.
@@TarMody The connection is that gondor had now spent most of it's manpower leaving it too weak to properly defend it's self let alone it's northern sister kingdoms and while it would eventually get most of it's strength back it would be too little too late to help Arthedain
2 war videos side by side in my Notifications: it was this video _vs._ "General Eisenhower's Secret WW2 Combat Mission". I clicked on this one first, and had no regrets. To clarify: I chose Karl first, over _Mark Felton._
So much information. Is there anyway, for future videos, you could put reference notes in the show notes? Text, chpt, page, etc. some times I put these videos to .75 speed and stop them to find reference but this particular video is causing me grief. I don’t know where to look!! RotK appendices?
Yeah of course Gigi, most of the information comes from the Appendices - Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion I'll try to include more of the references in the video description, though I hope it won't be overwhelming. For these videos I always go through all of the books (sometimes simply for a single quote) and so my notes can be quite messy 😂
@@GeekZoneMT I love you channel! You are a very competent creator and I want to retain as much as I can when I watch, the references will allow me to research on my own as well. Thank you for all your hard work and I will work hard on my end as well to keep up.
Since this world is magical, I dare say that solely the mixing with Northmen lessened the wisdom and the strength of the Numenoreans, and in hindsight Minalcar should have told his son to do anything but mix with Northmen. If he fell in love, then never let anyone know, because it would likewise be an offence to the Northmen saying "ah, but you people are too inferior to us, so we cannot marry any of you", so he definitely shouldn't do that. However, to our ears it also sounds a lot like proper racism, which usually isn't grounded in anything but fear and arrogance. The Tolkien world is however more magical, and the Numenoreans were in fact superior to the Northmen in most regards, I suppose. To conclude, Minalcar should maybe have sent someone else than his own son, since it would have been less controversial.
Totally and as you put magical. Bloodlines going back to the founding of numenor. The mixing sped you their decline. The early gondorians were superior to to their latter descendants.. As someone else mentioned in the comments that even Elrond said as much 'the blood of numenor has all but spent' Save some of the nobility of course and the people of dol amroth
This story is Tolkien specifically debunking the notion that the blood of Numenor is genetic. Numenorian superiority comes from a blessing from the gods, not their DNA. The more they stay true to the Valar way of life, as artists and craftsmen and teachers the more 'pure' they are. And if they get more war-like and selfish they lose their gift, get shorter life spans and become less wise. Pure-blooded Castamir does not live up to the standard of the Valar while mixed-race Eldacar lives a long Numenorian Valar-blessed life. The blood of Numenor runs thicker in Eldacar than it does in Castamir. Later we are told the blood of Numenor runs thicker in Faramir than it does in his full-blooded brother Boromir. What does speed up their decline is when Numenorian artist-teacher culture is mixed with other war and valor cultures and the Gondorian become more war like and selfish themselves. Which is what the characters in LotR refer to when talking about this subject.
@@CardboardArm I never knew that Tolkien debunked the fundamental assumption here that it's the blood and DNA that makes the Númenoreans Númenoreans! In that case my whole justifying them not mixing with the Northmen doesn't work when talking about the outcome (you rightly point out that Eldacar lives a normal Númenorean life). However, since you also say that the cultural mixing would deteriorate Númenorean life, and still thinking of Gondor as a realm of men, then it would have been politically wiser to still send someone else than the direct heir to the Gondorian throne.
You know a great follow up to this video could be "how would the events of Lord of the Rings played out differently if this civil war never had taken place."
So many parallels to our own time. We took a barbarian to be our own leader, whose place was usurped by a “pureblood” career politician who proved to be very destructive for the nation, and even cruelly punished those who had backed the barbarian. It turned out that the barbarian was much more on our side than the purebloods, the established aristocracy, who really cared mainly about their own wealth and power.
I love the way Karl presents his content to us. I really feel that I am listening to lore master telling us what really happened, as if Tolkien himself could come back to life and tell us his lore. Thank you Karl for all you do.
It was what it was but i do think Gondor was greatly weakend by it. The northmen of that area seem to have dwindled after and also Gondor plus they gained mortal enemies in the corsairs
It makes no sense that Castameres sons would become a permanant enemy of Gondor, their entire point was wanting a pure Gondorian royalty, they dont get that so why does that mean they will slaughter and raid their fellow pureblood Gondorians living in the port cities, a more realistic outcome would likely be a new kingdom that still fights against the enemies of gondor but places great pride in being plureblood.
While o like LOR, I still don’t like the hints that there are themes of racial purity, and even worse then when it comes across as; things arnt as good as they use to be
well, Tolkien didn't hide from aspects that affect human history; my own interpretation of this particular history is that the concept of purity may be a weakness when it is considered a strength by it's own. The fall of Númenor had some of it as well, with their own arrogance in their splendor being their downfall, forgetting their humble origins compared to the elves that their descendants fought for, by sheer admiration, awe and love of their true teachings of the Valar, leading to Elendil as a representative of the human race by the end of that journey; doesn't take away the natural behavior of communities wanting to have it's descendants resembling their own forefathers, you could argue there's some level of acceptance in miscegenation, as long as it is compatible with Eru's virtues.
Do you think it was smart on Minalcar's part to try and strengthen his alliance with the Northmen? And do you think the Civil War was the worst of the 3 calamities of Gondor? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
Yes, it was a smart move. Strong alliances are force multipliers. The Civil War was the worst because Gondor weakened itself all on its own; its enemies didn't have to lift a finger.
@Babes & Board Games
Totally. They didn't have to be do that and so it sped up the decline of the southend Dunedain compared with their northern kin.
Also it didnt help that they lost a lot of manpower and didn't have lots of children.
So by the time of the war of the ring, the men of dol amroth was more of a reflection of what gondor used to be.
Long lived, tall, wise, strong, lots of stamina etc.
It was a smart move, the northmen were a valiant people and good warriors, they were a usefull buffer againts the easterlings and the value of the northmen riders was great to Gondor's military. I think the mistake Gondor made was not to put more interest and resourses in making Rhovanion a more advance kingdom with more cultural conection to Gondor, but even without that, the northmen prove to be Gondor's biggest allie during the third age
@Babes & Board Games That doesn’t seem like Tolkien’s message here at all. The fault is on the purists for rebelling in the first place. The Kin-strife was entirely their doing.
What a fantastic story. One I never knew. Who says Tolkien isn't contemporary.
This civil war show that Gondor began to suffer from an "Evil" resulting from this possible "Homogenization of the infantry": the gradual loss of mobility in the field, but as a result, the infantry, if well trained and with the maintenance of the knowledge brought by Númenor, would be more resistant to large attacks, and the more agile forces such as cavalry would decide the battle against the enemy at Lebennin and at the Crossings of the Erui which highlighted an interesting fact:
Since Eldacar must have been supported by forces from Rhovanion, he must have employed a very experienced and professional cavalry against the Usurper's forces (consisting mostly, in my opinion, of infantry) and this factor must have been one of the key to the success of their cause, which demonstrated the growing importance of cavalry in a scenario that would follow for centuries to come. The first signs came from the campaign against the Wainriders, who exposed the "weakness" of Gondor against more agile and mobile forces on a battlefield conducive to such use. See the Wainriders.
This also brings to mind the issue of Dol Amroth, or to be more precise, the Lords of Dor-En-Ernil as it was known before Amroth's departure. They have pure Numenorean blood so I assume they had sided with Castamir, but are also renown knights descended from Numenor. If at this time they existed, they would be a terrifying foe to face, being able to field heavy cavalry and Numenorean Steelbows.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS While I doubt they’d support Castamir I don’t see them explicitly rejecting him until Eldacar gets closer to besiege Pelargir.
And so he spoke and so he spoke, that Lord of Castamere. But now the rains, weep o're his halls, with no one left to hear.
You always make my day whenever you post. Keep it up!
Cheers James, It's awesome to be back, I really missed publishing! 😁
And meanwhile, somewhere in the shadows, the Dark Lord chuckled, for he loved it most when his enemies defeated themselves, and each other.
The concept of purity is an interesting one, in Tolkien's work; you could argue Melkor was a direct son and creation of Eru Iluvatar, the essence of creation, and even that great spirit was capable of corruption and evil. In the end, if the culture and way of life is compatible with the true meanings of Eru's music, it would have more valor than any bloodline lineage followed by it's children.
Wonderful to hear your voice again! The channel that led me all the way to read The History of Middle Earth which I am reading now. Thank you!
As alwayy amazing, great and interesting video!! Glad that Lotr content is back, I mean...it IS one tophic to rule them all!
Great video, just keep going!
Thanks man, I'd still like to explore a diverse range of topics; though there's no toppling Lotr ;)
Great to hear Carl's voice again! It gives the channel more personality and authority.
This was excellent. Thank you for this really introspective look.
The upload rate, keep up the grind!
Thanks man! I'm a lot more free now, trying to publish at least 2 videos a month :)
Great news! Love your topics and vibe!
I think it was a decision with good intentions and great potential, but as you said, Gondor did never get back its former power. In the end, a civil war is always exceptionally devastating for any country or empire and to be prevented (although I don't think the king foresaw this).
Great video!
Thanks Angela, I'm glad you enjoyed it 😁
You did an excellent job mate 👏 👌
Thanks Mike 😁😁
Nice to hear world of warcraft music in the background 😀
I love this channel
🙏 Thanks!!! :D
This to me, is a political marriage. As it happened between Tarannon Falastur and Berúthiel. This marriage also ensured that Aragorn had Northern (Rohan in a way) blood. What I'm wondering is if Castamir's descendants interacted and formed blood ties with the Black Númenoreans in Umbar. Also does Sauron have anything to do with this case?
Aragorn came from the line of Isildur, he was not a descendant of Eldacar, so he didn't have any Northmen blood.
@@salez9830 I suggest you recheck the human family trees more carefully. In Aragorn's lineage, Arvedui's wife Fíriel was the daughter of Ondoher. Ondoher is also descended from Eldacar and Eldacar's mother Vidumavi is a northern human. So Aragorn has a little bit of northern blood.
@BenMedia Since the weakening of Gondor is related to these three events, I wondered if this event also had a connection with Sauron, but there is no evidence of that.
@@TarMody The connection is that gondor had now spent most of it's manpower leaving it too weak to properly defend it's self let alone it's northern sister kingdoms and while it would eventually get most of it's strength back it would be too little too late to help Arthedain
Many numenorian bloodlines and families would die during the this period.
Hastened the decline of gondor
2 war videos side by side in my Notifications: it was this video _vs._ "General Eisenhower's Secret WW2 Combat Mission".
I clicked on this one first, and had no regrets. To clarify: I chose Karl first, over _Mark Felton._
Thank you Karl!
Karl what do you think the prince's of dol amroth position was during this war?
So much information. Is there anyway, for future videos, you could put reference notes in the show notes? Text, chpt, page, etc. some times I put these videos to .75 speed and stop them to find reference but this particular video is causing me grief. I don’t know where to look!! RotK appendices?
Yeah of course Gigi, most of the information comes from the Appendices - Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
I'll try to include more of the references in the video description, though I hope it won't be overwhelming. For these videos I always go through all of the books (sometimes simply for a single quote) and so my notes can be quite messy 😂
@@GeekZoneMT I love you channel! You are a very competent creator and I want to retain as much as I can when I watch, the references will allow me to research on my own as well. Thank you for all your hard work and I will work hard on my end as well to keep up.
Since this world is magical, I dare say that solely the mixing with Northmen lessened the wisdom and the strength of the Numenoreans, and in hindsight Minalcar should have told his son to do anything but mix with Northmen. If he fell in love, then never let anyone know, because it would likewise be an offence to the Northmen saying "ah, but you people are too inferior to us, so we cannot marry any of you", so he definitely shouldn't do that.
However, to our ears it also sounds a lot like proper racism, which usually isn't grounded in anything but fear and arrogance. The Tolkien world is however more magical, and the Numenoreans were in fact superior to the Northmen in most regards, I suppose.
To conclude, Minalcar should maybe have sent someone else than his own son, since it would have been less controversial.
Totally and as you put magical.
Bloodlines going back to the founding of numenor.
The mixing sped you their decline.
The early gondorians were superior to to their latter descendants..
As someone else mentioned in the comments that even Elrond said as much 'the blood of numenor has all but spent'
Save some of the nobility of course and the people of dol amroth
This story is Tolkien specifically debunking the notion that the blood of Numenor is genetic. Numenorian superiority comes from a blessing from the gods, not their DNA. The more they stay true to the Valar way of life, as artists and craftsmen and teachers the more 'pure' they are. And if they get more war-like and selfish they lose their gift, get shorter life spans and become less wise.
Pure-blooded Castamir does not live up to the standard of the Valar while mixed-race Eldacar lives a long Numenorian Valar-blessed life. The blood of Numenor runs thicker in Eldacar than it does in Castamir. Later we are told the blood of Numenor runs thicker in Faramir than it does in his full-blooded brother Boromir.
What does speed up their decline is when Numenorian artist-teacher culture is mixed with other war and valor cultures and the Gondorian become more war like and selfish themselves. Which is what the characters in LotR refer to when talking about this subject.
@@CardboardArm I never knew that Tolkien debunked the fundamental assumption here that it's the blood and DNA that makes the Númenoreans Númenoreans! In that case my whole justifying them not mixing with the Northmen doesn't work when talking about the outcome (you rightly point out that Eldacar lives a normal Númenorean life). However, since you also say that the cultural mixing would deteriorate Númenorean life, and still thinking of Gondor as a realm of men, then it would have been politically wiser to still send someone else than the direct heir to the Gondorian throne.
You know a great follow up to this video could be "how would the events of Lord of the Rings played out differently if this civil war never had taken place."
So many parallels to our own time. We took a barbarian to be our own leader, whose place was usurped by a “pureblood” career politician who proved to be very destructive for the nation, and even cruelly punished those who had backed the barbarian. It turned out that the barbarian was much more on our side than the purebloods, the established aristocracy, who really cared mainly about their own wealth and power.
your next video should be why did't sauron guard mount doom better
Yeah it'll probably win the next poll 😉
@@GeekZoneMT yeah it will win the next poll
where do you get these images??
I love the way Karl presents his content to us. I really feel that I am listening to lore master telling us what really happened, as if Tolkien himself could come back to life and tell us his lore. Thank you Karl for all you do.
It was what it was but i do think Gondor was greatly weakend by it. The northmen of that area seem to have dwindled after and also Gondor plus they gained mortal enemies in the corsairs
Strength is actually measured in ounces, not inches. But who's counting? Oh yeah, me.
It makes no sense that Castameres sons would become a permanant enemy of Gondor, their entire point was wanting a pure Gondorian royalty, they dont get that so why does that mean they will slaughter and raid their fellow pureblood Gondorians living in the port cities, a more realistic outcome would likely be a new kingdom that still fights against the enemies of gondor but places great pride in being plureblood.
they went native, ironically
4:07 not pointless,that was luck. It is know that when dunedain stock breeds with normal humans,their lifespans get shorter.
I think I would be angry being the son of numenorian and a simple human it means not only am I not going to benefit from less life than my own dad
While o like LOR, I still don’t like the hints that there are themes of racial purity, and even worse then when it comes across as; things arnt as good as they use to be
Everything declines over time due to Arda being marred by Morgoth.
well, Tolkien didn't hide from aspects that affect human history; my own interpretation of this particular history is that the concept of purity may be a weakness when it is considered a strength by it's own. The fall of Númenor had some of it as well, with their own arrogance in their splendor being their downfall, forgetting their humble origins compared to the elves that their descendants fought for, by sheer admiration, awe and love of their true teachings of the Valar, leading to Elendil as a representative of the human race by the end of that journey; doesn't take away the natural behavior of communities wanting to have it's descendants resembling their own forefathers, you could argue there's some level of acceptance in miscegenation, as long as it is compatible with Eru's virtues.
When captain America and Iron man fell out....
Assuming one of them was an awful guy :p