Great show tonight, thanks to all at FSB! Well, you are not going to want to eat any game that is shot with "steel" shot! That looks utterly toxic. So bismuth to cure underlying conditions and tungsten are best non-lead but lead appears better in your system than "steel". Very interesting item on the stress in deer and yet more ammunition (see what I did there?) for stalking on foot and not the helicopter stalking beloved of Land and Forestry Scotland. Thank you, Tristan!
What a brilliant episode. Stress is a defence mechanism, so very pleased with the science. Slightly worried about steel and acid now. Excellent tailoring - I was thinking about armholes just this morning with that arising thought (ARM holes !!). Excellent !
Good day Charlie, awesome videos for this week and enjoyable to watch, many thanks and thumbs up for all.Greetings from New Zealand to everyone, safe hunting and tight lines to all fisher.
The full length film with Mark and Andrew on shotgun shot is entertaining but that is all it is, there's no science to it. I understand Mark's ire as the cobblers trotted out about how good steel is and comparable to lead. It is not. When I say no science, I shamefully omit to tip my hat to Charlie's forensic cartridge tests under laboratory conditions. That test alone should tell you: don't eat game meat killed with "steel" shot. Setting aside all of that, Andrew makes the most valid point regarding the perception of lead shot. No matter what we do and say lead will be banned so we either phase it out and spend wisely getting the replacements as cost effective and efficacious as possible or we wait for the inevitable and are all shocked and surprised when lead is no longer available to us. I'm off to dig up the back garden and am hoping to find a rich seam of tungsten or bismuth so I can afford some cartridges for when lockdown is over.
Very interesting testing on the stress levels of deer that are hunted. It would seem that Customs are making up their own laws whether they have been passed by Government or not. Happening quite often here in Canada lately. Thanks for an interesting and great show as usual.
The question about the lead is a hidden gun control , ban lead and many fine older weapons are removed to safe status or wallhangers. And is the point of it all of swapping out the ethical and humane game managers and hunters with rewilding phantasies of the times of long forgotten nightmares ?
I cannot understand the mindset of these keepers who continue to shoot protected species. I understand the damage that predator species can do and I’m a keen shooting and countryman myself but all conservation arguments aside it is illegal simple as that and to go out and knowingly shoot protected species is just crazy, making a rod for there own backs more fuel for antis fire
Awesome video as per usual, don't suppose we could have David a little louder in the news section as sometimes it's hard to hear what he's saying over the loud music?
Great to see the military tailoring section, really enjoyable and would love to spend some time there with Jonathan for the experience as much as the jacket, and I am a member so fingers crossed. The pro lead chap sounded alot like a smoking company advocate from a few years back!
If shotgun ammo goes to steel that will be the worst thing to happen to shooting since the pistol ban in this country. Shot shells are totally different to bullets. The energy lost on target impact is monumental! You are loosing ft/lbs of energy in the bucket load and there is no way around it, larger shot = less of it, and you can only push it so fast. Example, number 5 lead shot at 1400fps in steel would need to be number 3 shot at 1900fps to get close to it and it's not doable. And yes steel shot will damage barrels when using fiber wad, it's just physics.
I don't think that's correct. English number 5 shot has a diameter of 2.79mm - in pure lead this equates to an energy at 1400 fps of about 11.74 Joules per pellet. Steel shot English size 3 has a diameter of 3.25mm, travelling at 1900 fps this equates to an energy of 23.73 Joules per pellet, more than double the energy the lead pellet is carrying. Even if the steel pellets were only travelling at 1400 fps, the increased diameter of the steel compensates for its lower density and results in an energy of 12.89 Joules per pellet - still more than lead. You can actually push steel shot much faster than you can push lead - lead pellets start to deform at comparatively low velocities. To get lead up to 1400 fps you need to add significant amounts of antimony in order to harden the shot and prevent excessive deformation - even then it typically deforms more than a steel pellet would.
@@mrsmith9079 Trust me I am right, I based what I said on tests, not just my own opinions. The size of the shot is irrelevant, it's the weight that matters and lead is FAR heavier than steel!! There are lead vs steel ballistics gel tests on this very channel which prove, that even with much bigger steel shot going much faster, you get half the penetration in the ballistics gel
@@doomfathertm8771And I just provided you with physical energy calculations, no opinion was necessary, it was just mathematics and physics, which you supposedly agree with. Lead is not heavier than steel, lead is DENSER than steel, but as I already pointed out to you, a steel 3 pellet has more mass than a lead 5 pellet, this is a fact. And no, this channel has not proven it - if you are referring to the cartridge testing episode on field tester then I would quickly make the very salient point that the gamebore steel cartridge with size 3 shot was travelling at about 1235 fps whilst the lead Gamebore dark storm 5's were travelling at 1250 fps, so it wasn't going much faster as you stated, it was in fact travelling more slowly, and achieved only slightly less penetration than the average lead pellet, not 'half the penetration' as you stated.
@@mrsmith9079 You can't make physical energy calculations using speed and shot size when you have 2 different metals. You have to use speed and weight. Speed and weight is how you get your ft/lbs energy, not pellet size
@@doomfathertm8771Yes you can, the densities of lead and iron are well known and are easily found. Shot is roughly spherical, and therefore the volume of a sphere with any diameter can be easily calculated. Then, using published densities for both iron and lead, the mass of a sphere of any size can also be calculated. Finally, the classical 1/2mv^2 can be used to calculate kinetic energy. Just as an aside - do you know that cannonballs were typically made of cast iron? I doubt anybody complained that cannonballs weren't lethal, or didn't penetrate sufficiently. Similarly, do you think that a lead number 5 pellet is going to penetrate further, or retain more velocity at distance than an iron cannonball? Of course not, so therefore there must exist some size at which a steel pellet will outperform a smaller lead pellet in terms of penetration and retained velocity. Quite simple really.
My question is how fast does cortisol get produced when an animal is sujected to sudden stress? If a deer is shot then does cortisol instantly get produced and flood it's circulatory system, or is it slower to release? How accurate is measuring blood cortisol levels as a metric of the type of sudden stress levels that occur when a deer is shot? Very interesting study, keen to hear more!
Interesting about stress of animals on dispatch... wild hunted meats stress less better than animals that have been through stress in abattoir conditions. The antis will be confused not needing to attack field sports and have something else to criticise for a change!
Every citizen of ancient Rome died, lead plates or no lead plates. In how many countries was domestic drinking water delivery through lead pipes and how many people died as a consequence?
Just mark the optics, "optics" mark the gun parts as, "parts" or tools and parts include the hex key or wrench. Don't label anything as Guns or Rifles or Firearms unless that is what it is.
I'm really sorry to say this guys but I feel the show is getting really boring. I've watched EVERY single episode since day 1. It used to be all about shooting with plenty of action films - Roy on foxes, Crowman on pigeons etc etc. Now it's all about politics and antis with the news segment seeming to be the longest part of the programme along with boring interviews on legalities and legislation. It's more depressing than enjoyable. Again, sorry to have to say this but I just can't help myself - I've been thinking it for weeks so finally had to put it out there. 😫😔
I wonder if COVID restrictions might be limiting filming? But I'm also glad FSB is campaigning so we can keep enjoying the enjoyable films and activities in the future, a balance to the struck
mmm. As cruel as the stress as it ages to death, slowly dying of whatever ailments and age-related degeneration until it dies. More hunting is the answer not less. That or next to the beaver we re-wild a few thousand sabre tooth tigers and keep everyone lock down for ever.
There is a hearing in Norway coming up regarding possibly banning night time hunting with Thermal scopes. Is it possible to have the research provided in this video showcasing stress levels on deer shot during day/night, so I could try and forward this to the lawmakers in Norway?
Hello. The 13 nmol/l cortisol for night shot deer is from the Cockram et al 2011 study: Cockram MS, Shaw DJ, Milne E, Bryce R, McClean C, Daniels MJ (2011) Comparison of effects of different methods of culling red deer (Cervus elaphus) by shooting on behaviour and post mortem measurements of blood chemistry, muscle glycogen and carcase characteristics. Anim Welf 20(2):211-224
The cortisol levels should have been compared with cattle and sheep at the point of slaughter. They, after all, have been transported from the farm by road which presumably will cause a significant stress.
Hi Charlie, can you ask Tristan if he completed his study and whether there is data for cortisol levels in stalked and shot compared with abattoir slaughtered deer, cattle, sheep and pigs? It would be a handy bit of data to say, look 5 tiny wee bits per litre in stalked deer and 200 tiny wee bits in slaughtered animals. If he has got some data like that, a follow up would be really appreciated. Thanks CJ
GM modified foods banned yet GM modified squirrels released....make you wonder what's next and as for Jeremy Paxmans low seat I've been wondering what to do with the old bathroom suite we took out.🤣
Hello shooter88 Cheers for the interest!! Bateson and Bradshaw (1997) study got “baseline” cortisol by head or neck shooting 41 wild red deer by pro stalkers. This produced readings of about 2.7 nmol/l. DMQ best practice is still chest shooting wild deer and most studies have not really controlled shot placement. Therefore it was a really critically controlled variable for my study. All fallow does were shot in the chest. Preliminary results show of 24 nmol/l for lead and 13 nmol/l for copper. Cockram et al (2011) showed very similar results for lead bullets, with single person daytime stalking producing 16 nmol/l and Gentsch et al (2018) also showed comparable results with 29.89 nmol/l for stalked deer.
People have drank out of lead pipes for years I'm more interested in what they put in our food what we buy from the supermarkets the food doesn't last as long now until it's not what date🤔
Theft and the punishment of any animal wether it’s ferrets , dogs , farmed or domestic needs to be seriously looked , massive fines and long custodial sentences need to be set in place
I am afraid that this week's show was over technical in regards to legislation, the repetitive lead debate and science of stress ... A real shame as I've always looked forward to the show and been left wanting more ... but not this week . Where was the fieldsports Britain? Is this because of lockdown and limited ability to travel and film ? Still my number 1 show and hoping for a return to countryside pursuits.... rather than the inside and outs of a very expensive piece of equipment or a bullet ?
i use to have this mindset then i realised there simply isnt enough meet in wild to feed us humans mate, if we didnt breed animals to kill them we would of killed all the wild animals by now
Thanks James - I think the best reason for us running this piece is that Mark's arguments were untested in the media. Now they are being tested. / Charlie
Superb show guys. So much info this week. Hell of a lot of work gone into that one!!
Thanks JD..D
Great show tonight, thanks to all at FSB!
Well, you are not going to want to eat any game that is shot with "steel" shot! That looks utterly toxic. So bismuth to cure underlying conditions and tungsten are best non-lead but lead appears better in your system than "steel".
Very interesting item on the stress in deer and yet more ammunition (see what I did there?) for stalking on foot and not the helicopter stalking beloved of Land and Forestry Scotland. Thank you, Tristan!
What a brilliant episode. Stress is a defence mechanism, so very pleased with the science. Slightly worried about steel and acid now. Excellent tailoring - I was thinking about armholes just this morning with that arising thought (ARM holes !!). Excellent !
Good day Charlie, awesome videos for this week and enjoyable to watch, many thanks and thumbs up for all.Greetings from New Zealand to everyone, safe hunting and tight lines to all fisher.
The full length film with Mark and Andrew on shotgun shot is entertaining but that is all it is, there's no science to it. I understand Mark's ire as the cobblers trotted out about how good steel is and comparable to lead. It is not. When I say no science, I shamefully omit to tip my hat to Charlie's forensic cartridge tests under laboratory conditions. That test alone should tell you: don't eat game meat killed with "steel" shot.
Setting aside all of that, Andrew makes the most valid point regarding the perception of lead shot. No matter what we do and say lead will be banned so we either phase it out and spend wisely getting the replacements as cost effective and efficacious as possible or we wait for the inevitable and are all shocked and surprised when lead is no longer available to us.
I'm off to dig up the back garden and am hoping to find a rich seam of tungsten or bismuth so I can afford some cartridges for when lockdown is over.
Lots of tungsten on Dartmoor. Tom Davies stalks next to the mine. / Charlie
The hydrochloric acid that Charlie uses is roughly 60 times more concentrated than stomach acid - it's an absolutely irrelevant test I'm afraid.
Great to see the conservation work from the Lough Beg & Lough Neagh project get the positive publicity on the channel. Many thanks.
Very interesting testing on the stress levels of deer that are hunted. It would seem that Customs are making up their own laws whether they have been passed by Government or not. Happening quite often here in Canada lately. Thanks for an interesting and great show as usual.
Another Great show, very interesting the stress levels in animals that are shot in various types of hunting. Keep up the great work Fella's.
Cortisol- Fascinating, thanks guys
The question about the lead is a hidden gun control , ban lead and many fine older weapons are removed to safe status or wallhangers. And is the point of it all of swapping out the ethical and humane game managers and hunters with rewilding phantasies of the times of long forgotten nightmares ?
Bang on exactly my thinking
I cannot understand the mindset of these keepers who continue to shoot protected species. I understand the damage that predator species can do and I’m a keen shooting and countryman myself but all conservation arguments aside it is illegal simple as that and to go out and knowingly shoot protected species is just crazy, making a rod for there own backs more fuel for antis fire
Awesome video as per usual, don't suppose we could have David a little louder in the news section as sometimes it's hard to hear what he's saying over the loud music?
In the great lead debate the increased frequency of broken teeth due to biting on steel shot seems to have been missed 🤔
Is there any evidence?
Great to see the military tailoring section, really enjoyable and would love to spend some time there with Jonathan for the experience as much as the jacket, and I am a member so fingers crossed.
The pro lead chap sounded alot like a smoking company advocate from a few years back!
Ps, sound levels generally seemed better this episode, last few weeks I was constantly adjusting the volume.
If shotgun ammo goes to steel that will be the worst thing to happen to shooting since the pistol ban in this country. Shot shells are totally different to bullets. The energy lost on target impact is monumental! You are loosing ft/lbs of energy in the bucket load and there is no way around it, larger shot = less of it, and you can only push it so fast. Example, number 5 lead shot at 1400fps in steel would need to be number 3 shot at 1900fps to get close to it and it's not doable. And yes steel shot will damage barrels when using fiber wad, it's just physics.
I don't think that's correct. English number 5 shot has a diameter of 2.79mm - in pure lead this equates to an energy at 1400 fps of about 11.74 Joules per pellet. Steel shot English size 3 has a diameter of 3.25mm, travelling at 1900 fps this equates to an energy of 23.73 Joules per pellet, more than double the energy the lead pellet is carrying. Even if the steel pellets were only travelling at 1400 fps, the increased diameter of the steel compensates for its lower density and results in an energy of 12.89 Joules per pellet - still more than lead.
You can actually push steel shot much faster than you can push lead - lead pellets start to deform at comparatively low velocities. To get lead up to 1400 fps you need to add significant amounts of antimony in order to harden the shot and prevent excessive deformation - even then it typically deforms more than a steel pellet would.
@@mrsmith9079 Trust me I am right, I based what I said on tests, not just my own opinions. The size of the shot is irrelevant, it's the weight that matters and lead is FAR heavier than steel!! There are lead vs steel ballistics gel tests on this very channel which prove, that even with much bigger steel shot going much faster, you get half the penetration in the ballistics gel
@@doomfathertm8771And I just provided you with physical energy calculations, no opinion was necessary, it was just mathematics and physics, which you supposedly agree with.
Lead is not heavier than steel, lead is DENSER than steel, but as I already pointed out to you, a steel 3 pellet has more mass than a lead 5 pellet, this is a fact. And no, this channel has not proven it - if you are referring to the cartridge testing episode on field tester then I would quickly make the very salient point that the gamebore steel cartridge with size 3 shot was travelling at about 1235 fps whilst the lead Gamebore dark storm 5's were travelling at 1250 fps, so it wasn't going much faster as you stated, it was in fact travelling more slowly, and achieved only slightly less penetration than the average lead pellet, not 'half the penetration' as you stated.
@@mrsmith9079 You can't make physical energy calculations using speed and shot size when you have 2 different metals. You have to use speed and weight. Speed and weight is how you get your ft/lbs energy, not pellet size
@@doomfathertm8771Yes you can, the densities of lead and iron are well known and are easily found. Shot is roughly spherical, and therefore the volume of a sphere with any diameter can be easily calculated. Then, using published densities for both iron and lead, the mass of a sphere of any size can also be calculated. Finally, the classical 1/2mv^2 can be used to calculate kinetic energy.
Just as an aside - do you know that cannonballs were typically made of cast iron? I doubt anybody complained that cannonballs weren't lethal, or didn't penetrate sufficiently.
Similarly, do you think that a lead number 5 pellet is going to penetrate further, or retain more velocity at distance than an iron cannonball? Of course not, so therefore there must exist some size at which a steel pellet will outperform a smaller lead pellet in terms of penetration and retained velocity. Quite simple really.
Another good one Charlie and team!.....I do believe we rolled over too quickly on the lead issue.
My question is how fast does cortisol get produced when an animal is sujected to sudden stress? If a deer is shot then does cortisol instantly get produced and flood it's circulatory system, or is it slower to release? How accurate is measuring blood cortisol levels as a metric of the type of sudden stress levels that occur when a deer is shot?
Very interesting study, keen to hear more!
Interesting about stress of animals on dispatch... wild hunted meats stress less better than animals that have been through stress in abattoir conditions. The antis will be confused not needing to attack field sports and have something else to criticise for a change!
Another fine production, thanks chaps.
Every citizen of ancient Rome died, lead plates or no lead plates. In how many countries was domestic drinking water delivery through lead pipes and how many people died as a consequence?
What about the job against rusty steel, but non for lead 🤔
My mum always told me eating and drinking from lead and aluminium causes dementia??
Just mark the optics, "optics" mark the gun parts as, "parts" or tools and parts include the hex key or wrench. Don't label anything as Guns or Rifles or Firearms unless that is what it is.
I'm really sorry to say this guys but I feel the show is getting really boring. I've watched EVERY single episode since day 1. It used to be all about shooting with plenty of action films - Roy on foxes, Crowman on pigeons etc etc. Now it's all about politics and antis with the news segment seeming to be the longest part of the programme along with boring interviews on legalities and legislation. It's more depressing than enjoyable.
Again, sorry to have to say this but I just can't help myself - I've been thinking it for weeks so finally had to put it out there. 😫😔
I wonder if COVID restrictions might be limiting filming? But I'm also glad FSB is campaigning so we can keep enjoying the enjoyable films and activities in the future, a balance to the struck
You are entitled to your opinion, sure, but I can't say I agree with you.
mmm. As cruel as the stress as it ages to death, slowly dying of whatever ailments and age-related degeneration until it dies. More hunting is the answer not less. That or next to the beaver we re-wild a few thousand sabre tooth tigers and keep everyone lock down for ever.
There is a hearing in Norway coming up regarding possibly banning night time hunting with Thermal scopes. Is it possible to have the research provided in this video showcasing stress levels on deer shot during day/night, so I could try and forward this to the lawmakers in Norway?
Hello. The 13 nmol/l cortisol for night shot deer is from the Cockram et al 2011 study:
Cockram MS, Shaw DJ, Milne E, Bryce R, McClean C, Daniels MJ (2011) Comparison of effects of different methods of culling red deer (Cervus elaphus) by shooting on behaviour and post mortem measurements of blood chemistry, muscle glycogen and carcase characteristics. Anim Welf 20(2):211-224
Interesting that night shootig seems to be realy low on the cortisol levels.
The cortisol levels should have been compared with cattle and sheep at the point of slaughter. They, after all, have been transported from the farm by road which presumably will cause a significant stress.
Food scarcity is THE biggest stress factor amongst wild animals. Farmed animals rarely suffer scarcity in this country at least.
Hi Charlie, can you ask Tristan if he completed his study and whether there is data for cortisol levels in stalked and shot compared with abattoir slaughtered deer, cattle, sheep and pigs? It would be a handy bit of data to say, look 5 tiny wee bits per litre in stalked deer and 200 tiny wee bits in slaughtered animals. If he has got some data like that, a follow up would be really appreciated.
Thanks
CJ
Thanks Colin - I am fairly sure you have asked for this before. I will find out. / Charlie
GM modified foods banned yet GM modified squirrels released....make you wonder what's next and as for Jeremy Paxmans low seat I've been wondering what to do with the old bathroom suite we took out.🤣
😁
I would be interested to know if there is a difference in cortisol levels in chest shot animals vs head or neck shot animals?
Hello shooter88
Cheers for the interest!! Bateson and Bradshaw (1997) study got “baseline” cortisol by head or neck shooting 41 wild red deer by pro stalkers. This produced readings of about 2.7 nmol/l. DMQ best practice is still chest shooting wild deer and most studies have not really controlled shot placement. Therefore it was a really critically controlled variable for my study. All fallow does were shot in the chest. Preliminary results show of 24 nmol/l for lead and 13 nmol/l for copper. Cockram et al (2011) showed very similar results for lead bullets, with single person daytime stalking producing 16 nmol/l and Gentsch et al (2018) also showed comparable results with 29.89 nmol/l for stalked deer.
People have drank out of lead pipes for years I'm more interested in what they put in our food what we buy from the supermarkets the food doesn't last as long now until it's not what date🤔
Theft and the punishment of any animal wether it’s ferrets , dogs , farmed or domestic needs to be seriously looked , massive fines and long custodial sentences need to be set in place
What is the best place to shop for a 11year old
Good episode charlie
Ive always thought that ScottishTartan would make good camouflage Gear. Does anybody do camouflage tartan gear in BRITAIN.
I am afraid that this week's show was over technical in regards to legislation, the repetitive lead debate and science of stress ... A real shame as I've always looked forward to the show and been left wanting more ... but not this week . Where was the fieldsports Britain?
Is this because of lockdown and limited ability to travel and film ?
Still my number 1 show and hoping for a return to countryside pursuits.... rather than the inside and outs of a very expensive piece of equipment or a bullet ?
Great video again!
Jesus I’d take my chances with lead that dissolved steel looks a little potent
Hunting is cruel but factory farming isn't, suuure
Not to mention vegan food farmers employ pest controllers anyway
i use to have this mindset then i realised there simply isnt enough meet in wild to feed us humans mate, if we didnt breed animals to kill them we would of killed all the wild animals by now
if your gunna eat meat tho u shuld be more than happy with somebudy hunting wild meat
JM Clean Cut Tailoring
Hello lads
Mutated squirrels sounds like a doomsday apocalypse in the making with the gene being passed on through the food chain?
Importing is a pain due to Brexit. Try being an individual wanting to return a product to an EU country.
Nice assorted content again.
So is Andrew trying to tell us that people who didnt smelt led in Rome are still alive?
jm clean-cut tailors.
Is there a fighting fund available to help those African tribes take on the blinkered wokeness of the animal rights groups?
Hi Charlie I think Mark is not thinking straight like Andrew is we need to move on and show the public that we do care about the environment. JT
Thanks James - I think the best reason for us running this piece is that Mark's arguments were untested in the media. Now they are being tested. / Charlie
now is the time to BUY BRITISH then
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