For the record, if anyone DOES want a challenging GT style license system in FH5... GO DO HRA ITS COMMUNITY RUN AND APPLIES TO FIDA ELO AND IT'S AMAZING!! discord.gg/rdVc6kfzTU
I know i'm slow; I drive stock cars without tuning them because i'm working on my general driving skill; but it's always hilarious watching others fly off the track in online races 😂
I mostly play on a wheel and absolutely love racing completely stock cars. A few other people I race are on wheels as well, and they thoroughly enjoy the same thing. We ended up making our own leaderboards of vehicle records, seeing who can go the fastest in the exact same vehicle. It's nice, competitive, and is a level playing field. 🙏🏽
I'd also like to see filters for assists like which transmission type people use, and especially filtering AWD power builds where RWD or FWD are expected.
In Forza Horizon 1 there was a progressive main story line, in-game charater Rivals that you really wanted to beat, bracelets. And tunning cars to a certain performance class was requiered. And also the famous outpost challenges that gived discount and were sometimes pretty hard and needed pactice to complete Am I alone to miss those things and would kind of want them back?
@PigIlFigo32 Yeah AI were not too bad to beat. But they were fun because they had a specific way to drive for some character. For example Flynt was skipping checkpoint and cutting corners. What I thought was harder, were the outpost challenges like: Not hitting anything for 2 min straight while keeping the speed over 360km/h or 224 mph. Especially on "S" shaped roads like we had in Forza Horizon 1
There are plenty of videos talking about how FH4 and FH5 have regressed in many aspects compared to 1,2 and 3. Some of these aspects regarding progression are sadly not exclusive to the Forza series, and many other new games share the same problem. I miss the old NFS entries too. I had watched a few of these videos just a couple of days ago and wrote this comment, so I will paste it back here: FH5 gets the driving right, and then messes everything else up. It's like the game is constantly trying to distract you and keep you from driving. - Story-wise, you get treated as a star right from the introduction, there's no build-up and nothing to achieve. The game starts right away with long and unskippable cutscenes, and boring events where you just have to follow an arrow for 15 minutes until you reach the end. - Progression-wise, there is none. You start with all 3 cars regardless of your choice and the Corvette is already a powerhouse. Then you open up your mailbox and receive tons of top tier cars for no reason, or you can receive them randomly on a level up roulette. And since most of the progression, and even gaining credits, are tied to wheelspins, there is little to no incentive to turning off the driving assists to earn a bit more credits per race. The bonus amount is largely irrelevant. - The UI is completely unintuitive and full of long and cumbersome animations and loading screens. Switching cars and tuning them is a chore. If you download a tune from another user, you're not able to change any aspects of it for no reason, so if you want to make a change you have to start your own from scratch. You can't tune a car outside of your house, so if you're planning on testing more than a single car, you have to tune all of them at once before you drive off to the events. Everything is locked behind meaningless animations and having to go back to your house. The game's obvious push for DEI doesn't help it either, but I guess that's expected from modern Microsoft.
What I would believe would be a cool idea is to have for every track to have set medals. I thought you could do this like Trackmania. There is Gold Silver and Bronze and then also a much more difficult author time, which is an actual time from the creator of the track. Having these set times gives you a much better perspective if your lap times are good or not and would maybe bring players to grind for these medals
those work well in trackmania because everyone drives the same car. in forza, even a single car with different tunes can result in massively different laptimes even assuming perfect driving.
I am generally a casual player, mainly I dislike online racing in general due to being yeeted in to the walls one to many time to want to deal with other humans. I do like rivals though. I don’t really care about my leader board placement, but I get a clean track with 0 extra cars and I can go for hours just seeing how clean and fast I can get my personal best. The fact I also get exp and credits are a nice bonus as well. I don’t mind all the dirty or stupidly high times on the boards, but I would like to see cheated times removed on principle if for no other reason.
If you ever want to jump into clean racing leagues (which arent 100% tryhard hubs) I recommend hoki's htcc and racing haven, you always get clean racing, and if dirtiness ever happens, there are dedicated race control teams to handle it :)
I consistently get times in the top 1000-2000, but even then I’m still slow especially when I race against some other people like you and your group (love watching your streams by the way).
Depends on a few factors because there's no ways a CCGT or Mosler is beating the Brabham in S2. So unless you have the meta cars, you probably aren't bad
@@valkeitos True, but even with meta cars I still have trouble cracking into the 1000s. So it’s not just the car and/or tune that makes the really fast players fast, it’s the brake, throttle, and steering control. I’ve greatly improved brake and throttle control just by really taking time to learn how to tune (within Forza physics anyway) which has given me a much better understanding of weight transfer. Aside from consistency lap to lap, I find the hardest thing to do is manage steering angle with the controller. I’m definitely better than I was, but I find it much harder to drive proper racing lines with the controller. With that said, I also acknowledge that I never played any kind of racing game until a few months after FH5 released. Trying to compare my “skills” to someone like Hoki or ESV mars, etc is not a fair comparison because they’ve been playing these types of games FAR longer than I have….but I have much higher expectations of myself and like to compete so I don’t like to fall back on that excuse.
@@valkeitoskinda true, it depends on the driver. Also depends on the track. Most times brab can gain .5 - 2 seconds on ccgt and mosler is track dependent. Unless you're against people who are really really good, if you have the skill you can use either car on the tracks they are respectively strong on to beat brabham. Ofc it's an advantage, I'm not denying that. Just saying it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be unless you're against really good players as a really good player.
@@kennedy31I’ve found that by looking as far forward into the track as I could, my steering and throttle application became much smoother and more efficient. Hopefully that helps but just take your time.
I'm usually in the top 1% at least in forza motorsport. I'm about 1 second behind per lap on the top people. So I'd say I'm still a relatively quick racer
I like experiencing cars that I'll never get the chance to drive real world. Even IF I could afford to buy a different car every month, it would take decades to work through every one offered in FH5 (or any of the other iterations). If the experience isn't exact, I'll never know. So, I just assume it is, and let the smiles happen.
A friend of mine is a seasoned sim racer (multiple hour races and so on). When he gave FH5 a try we decided to compete in rivals. We tuned a car together and when it was done he was sitting at top150 times and he basically beat me on most tracks but i gave him a run for his money. The one thing i noticed afterwards was that a huge amount of players are really bad at braking. If they improved this one skill there might be a lot more faster times.
Making goals harder to reach will inevitably put them _out of reach_ for the players that can't find the time or willpower to master a game to the level required. It'll help those interested in being better drivers get more out of the game, and tying it into the narrative could be a brilliant way to set up the endgame, encouraging players to take pride in honing their skills. However, I wonder how controversial a take this might be. There is likely a sizeable contingent of players who, no matter what, will ask "why should I CARE if I'm slow".
people get real mad when you lock people out of meaningful content on a time and skill basis, but the reaction to that is often toxic af too. see discourse about darksouls. lots of people play for mindless fun rather than for mastery and it's tough to remain fair to both groups. Hard modes are played by tiny minorities of players so it doesn't make business sense for most places to spend resources to cater to the top end of mastery players. Capitalism probably isn't going anywhere so you're not going to find games that make that kind of demand of players or put lots of resources into getting people to actually try unless somebody is making money on esports and they actually manage to build a farm system like minor league baseball.
solution imo is to have both low hanging and high hanging fruit. Both should have reasonable rewards. There would goals such as "drive every road" or "own every car" that the casal gamer can chase AND achieve, and lets say the reward is something like a forza edition car. You are being rewarded for time spent versus skill. Then there would be the more exclusive rewards, locked behind skill based goals. This can be exclusive liveries, custom options for the car, or even a prize only meant for the select few like a 1% exclusive prize. This is being rewarded for skill displayed over time played. Both tiers of goals should be desirable, but the one that is clearly more strenuous should reward better. Inversely, this system could still remain 2 tiers of rewards, but instead work like a "battle pass", or race day pass instead. You can unlock goals by either committing time and unlocking game play milestones (play 100 hours, time spent in first place, etc) OR complete skill gates to unlock them (beat x amount of unbeatable podium drivers, complete braking challenge on x tracks. Players have the option as to HOW they want to unlock milestones. Both are grinds, but both require a different approach to unlock.
> put them out of reach for the players that can't find the time Enter, limited-time playlist exclusive cars. I don't mind earning rewards through effort. The playlist isn't that. It's check in, get cars. Or miss out if you happen to have a busy week. What I'm trying to say is, the thing you mentioned is already there in the game. So PG really can't should be able to use that as an excuse.
Hoki once again representing the competitive community better than any other youtuber. Such a good job linking competitive and truly fast players with a more casual audience who may be slightly ignorant of the true state of leaderboards and skill gaps in horizon.
Yes, GT style license systems, I agree this is something that would improve the quality of life in the game. The Community has it handled (sort of... we don't have a great way to teach racecraft sadly) with HRA, but it would be better if it was built into the game. Special rewards for all 3 stars/golds is a very GT reward system too that I agree with. Hopefully we can do that in the future with HRA, but oh boy that would be a heavy lift with the constant changes. All that said, great topic, great take, and please join us at HRA! ❤
Honestly I’m glad Forza is like this, it’s my relax game, if I want to play a game where I need to concentrate more and improve all the time I’ll play Dirt Rally or something. Most players simply don’t give a shit about being competitive on horizon which is refreshing for once.
The fact there IS no push to better myself is why I love doing it compared to when everything insists I try hard. I can just vibe and let everything become habit. In anything else this becomes frustrating and not fun yet in horizon it's my zen, frequently poking into the top 1k in various rivals and dominating events the few times I choose to race online. It makes me happy going into the trial or your knowing I have a good chance of helping everyone else beat it even if it's something I'm not fond of driving, such as cross country.
I definitely don't think I am fast but I do think a lot of the 3 star stuff right now is more about cheesing rather than actual good driving which makes me think making it harder to achieve the 3 star alone won't do much. At least that is my opinion and experience attempting to 3 star stuff in the game. I could be very wrong though.
When I was still playing this game I always raced online using auto driving. I would consistently be in the top 3 of each race. I don't have any disabilities but I loved using it it felt like slot cars if you turn off auto brake.
I only classify a "good player" if there fast enough to get into teamwars or are nearly able to be in team wars, which must be the 0.2% or something of players
if we take teamwars players as 3000 people (its less) and then the amount of non competitive horizon players lets say its 2 million (its more) its more like 0.0015% or even less
@@razkinzmangowurzel I didn't want to say a super small % just bc I might have been wrong and I didn't have the time to properly calculate things but yeah that's probably right
Wouldn’t be an issue if laps from single player and private co-op weren’t sent to the leaderboard. Almost every single lap 1 is going to be flagged for collision, every lap 2 will be flagged for slipstreaming, and lap 3 is usually their only chance to get something clean. And then sprints are hopeless. Removing dirty times is a good idea.
I would love if features that are in trackmania, would be implemented in Forza. Like author time but for challenges with stars, obvl. a good leaderboard where getting a good time matters and people compete for them...
omg. Someone finally gets its. Someone is finally talking about the skill disparity in forza, and the effect it has on the playerbase and over all enjoyability of the game. Near the end, when you compared the horizon story to GT license tests, i have never gotten that far in my theory on what Forza can do to improve the abyssmal skill disparity, but i have complained on quite a few forza related vids AND reddit post that what the game needs is something to TEACH the players how to race, not how to play the game....but HOW TO RACE. Have like little challenges you can earn wheel spins or rare cars from. Things like a braking distance challenge, a launch/0-60 challenge, a "how many cars can you pass" challenge. Shit, for an open world game based on car culture, im very surprised there is not a single AUTO CROSS feature in this game. That feature was in FM7 AND FM6. For what they tout as "their most comprehensive and technologically advanced game to date", how are they missing pieces that were components of games considered their junior? I swear, the developers at turn 10 don't seem to appreciate what they have on their hands.
There are so many other ways to enjoy the horizon games outside of comparing times on leaderboards and getting torpedo’d in online races. Does running ABS and forza aero on all my rwd cars make me a slow noob? Dilligaf. I’m still having fun building custom circuits and unlocking the festival playlist car each week.
trials mode is usually a good place to find the best in horizons community. often times if i have a good race with someone they'll message me saying it was a good race instead of just ragequitting if they get passed at the line. i occasionally find a top player in the trials as well and a couple times weve shared how to help improve our vehicle tunes. i love a community that just collectively wants to better themeselves like this.
Having run a large Forza Discord server for a while, I've found that Rivals is generally not a good gauge for racing speed. Many people I knew that could casually set top 500 Rivals times whenever they felt like it cracked under the pressure of wheel to wheel. Perfecting lines is one thing. Racing is another.
Ways to make forza skillgap less bad: give us a motorsport game worth playing where people can be competitive in an environment more accommodating to it 💀
I had decided to get all top 1% with class B (I love my MX-5s) on all of the circuit road courses a while back. And I found much of the same things you did in that particular journey. I did not use any assists beyond ABS and TCS, and the true gain I came away with was getting a LOT better with the wheel/pedal set I have. And gaining the confidence to move towards more serious sims. I think the AI/tire improvements for Motorsport should go into Horizon 6 (if they work). With some kind of better online policing system like you mentioned.
I'd like to state to everyone that the term "accomplishment" is a term that can be used loosely and with opinion, he raises a good argument, but if it is an accomplishment to you for what you do, don't let someone else tell you that it is otherwise.
😭 Racing with some of the Comp community for the first time is an incredibly humbling experience lol I feel so washed nowadays even though I've been getting better albeit fairly slowly. I'm fairly satisfied with my Top 500-1000 on some tracks though, especially when I get those rare occasions where a Track and Car combo just clicks and I can get it down below 100. I know I'm still several seconds behind the top guys but I don't think I'll ever be on their level lol Atleast the Leaderboard cleanup is still ongoing in terms of hackers but it is slow.
(xwingmike here) TBH, I haven't even made the jump to driving Manual or Manual W/ Clutch yet, which is yet another massive barrier to competitive racing. So long as I find myself among the top 2-3 automatic times within the club's Rivals, I'm happy. That said, I haven't paid much attention to rivals in a long while, and this video was a bit eye opening.
@@x-wingmike Hey Xwing 👋 I jumped to Manual soon after the FH5 release and now I can't go back, it's easy once you get it down but Automatic served me well for many years. I normally do Rivals for fun nowadays and to see how I stack up, it's quite nice to improve just by challenging your own times and seeing where you went wrong
I really liked the achievements from previous games that require you to beat a specific time around a given map’s Goliath/Goliath equivalent track with a certain car. It would be cool to have that again. Also, if Rivals were between every individual car without performance restrictions or with every possible class for each car. With every car only being against itself, that could potentially be a method of filtering out the pointless times.
I'll never forget my first rivals leaderboard attempt in this game, my controller died midway through the lap. I quickly reconnected and completed the lap just to see the rest of the track. When I exited I had a top 1% time, so I do not trust the leaderboards for a second. I now go according to the literal leaderboard rank minus the hacked times. In my opinion, top 500 is a really good player.
I usually make the monthly rivals using reverse only. And when a clean lap is done I bugger off to something else. So much of what you mentioned is true. /DBB
I remember doing some Rivals in FH4 and coming cop 2-1% and feeling pretty good. Then I remember grinding away at others with the best car I had and struggling to get top 5%. I found monthly rivals easier though generally scoring top 1% after a few laps.
My best racing was in Need for Speed Shift and Shift 2. EA sponsored "Hot Lap" contests. Video of lap submitted to EA. I worked hard on those, won three of them. Hand penciled spread sheets to track car setups. Have over 100 videos saved. Good memories. Best to all!
I think one of the issues is that there is a big section of the racing game community (including the sim side) that only wants their "progression" to be unlocking events, buying expensive cars, or getting little gold medals next to all of the events on a checklist. They don't care at all about their progression as a driver or their skills... Which is kind of okay, people can play how they want after all. A lot racing games are designed to have your own developing skills be a part of the progression in the title (moreso on the sim side, but lots of racing games in general do), and when that part of the progression doesn't resonate with these "complete the checklist" type of players, those players whine and demand changes for future titles and abandon titles quickly instead of trying to learn to get better and finding fun in the challenge of improving. It seems a particularly big issue in the kind of middle of the road series like FM and GT.
I think I'm decent at drifting in FH5. I was really into it in FH4, and played ranked online drifting a lot. I still play the drift adventure now, and it seems like I win the majority of the rounds I play.
one gripe i have with the maxing pi level is some cars can't max out on some pi classes with some upgrade choices we as players make like for example i like building on the stock motor's performance and some cars because of that do not max out at some pi classes i have a maxed out stock engine r32 and it is very competitive at s1 so that pi warning does not help with that
The game does warn if you bring an under powered car to a race, it will say that C or D class car will make for an unusually long time (paraphrased). Otherwise, yeah some PI warning would be helpful...in general...people bring low PI and/or untuned/non tuned cars on the online trial and in MP is a little annoying...
I pretty much gave up on any notions of realism or legitimate competition when I realized this game lets you make a WWII Willys Jeep exceed 230 mph. This game is a sandbox to dick around in, nothing more.
I totally agree with you on this because the skill gap even just between me and most players who think they're good is quite large. I'm a PR stunt player and do Rivals quite often and I can usually get top 1k but even then it's hard to say from a general standpoint how good I am compared to the other people in close range. I'd consider myself a Pro driver in this game but I've had people disagree and say that I should be within the top 100 or even 500 so...
With the leaderboards showing single player and rivals times I always looked at the top 10% as those players in rivals mode, so top 1% was really top 10% of the players trying to beat the clock. Seperate single player and rivals leaderboards would be a nice addition, and a stock vs modifed filter would be nice to find a fast base car to start tuning, I'm an ok driver but a junk tuner a better starting point is always helpful.
As a rule of thumb, Rivals times are irelevant because cheat and hack engines allowing times that are impossible. Heck even in regular playing like for example doing one of those pathfinding missions, they have max time at the top. Like the contestant literally teleported at the destination gate the second they passed the start gate. And that is what they actually do, there is specific hacking option that teleports the cheater to the finish line. YAY. Sadly the game developers are focused on releasing paid DLCs with new and new cars instead of addressing issues of the game itself.
So I believe the last Motorsport did something similar to what you mentioned with the warning of PI level. They just used "homologation" ranking and terms instead. I think it would he at home very well in a horizon game.
Video liked for racing dog! I don’t know if this video applies to me having set top 1-2% laps on Horizon and Motorsport, and getting podium online whenever I don’t get crashed out. Been playing and loving Forza’s since 2010 with thousands of hours. There’s probably kids born that year playing the game now 😭 As you mention in this video, the numbers are skewed by people who didn’t set a good time, or cheating and hacker times. Even meta cars vs your own tuned car. That’s why I pay especially less attention to Horizon leaderboards with it’s more arcade physics and massive player count. It does also suck that accessibility settings can cheese the leaderboards when they’re there for people who need them.
The best thing to do, I've found, is spend some time online on the volcano looking for a lobby with some decent racing convoys in it. Measure yourself against them until you find one that's whipping you, then make friends with them so you can measure your times against them in Rivals.
I never was fast. I also soon realized how slow I was after playing horizon open for the first time and sorta realized that the walls were actually avoidable by all standards and that I didn’t know how to play the game that well, but most people have the same issue too. Every now and then I can pull of wins in upper level advanced ai with stock cars, but it takes a bit of skill depending on the car and how much of a disadvantage you are at.
How do you get the speed/tachometer to display the tire temperature telemetry there at 2:02 ?????? Been pulling my hair out with the Telemetry menu and settings. Note: I already set my controls to default and swapped Anna controls to Telemetry controls already, and that menu is obnoxious during a race. Please don't tell me to do those things. I don't have money for Game Pass or Motorsport, so please don't suggest those either.
One of the best feelings I've ever gotten was when I got into the top 100 times in the world on an S2 rally in fh4. That's when I knew I had gotten gud.
Good video, im one of the just for fun forza players. Spent too much time being good at games, only full game im happy just being ok at Just love a new race no matter the difficulty
Unless they start monetizing more for the live service part of the game, I don't think they'll be too keen to invest in things like ranked mode because it can need significant resources and the current structure of the team at most can support smaller free updates. If they decide to make the game full live service and get rid of numbered new entries, then it seems possible to scale up those parts of the game.
I wish we could filter all the way down to make and model, I would be very interested in trying to build, as an example, the fastest A Class Volvo 850R on a specific track.
I wanted to rant about the conflict of splitting casual-competitive but honestly: thanks for making these videos for such a small title WITHOUT being polemic or toxic and wrapping up with on a good note. It shows you care about the lower end skilled players and appreciate them altough sacrificing qualities that you can only get in motorsport titles
"AI chess bots can beat some of the world's best players": any modern chess engine running on anything more powerful than a smart phone will beat any human player every single time. Chess engines have elo ratings eight *hundred* points higher than the highest ever elo rating achieved by a human. The difference is so vast that a human being *using the same chess engine they are playing against to assist their play* will still lose to the chess engine every time.
used to think "oh ive got top 1% in every road race imma mince everyone online" and got my ass handed to me, that is the day i realised that percentage means almost nothing
All good points Hoki and a good video, I do however disagree with the idea of a warning about your car not being at max PI for that track/challenge. I just feel that could hinder player development by encouraging players into cars too fast for them. Let a player build their ability up to challenge the times at their pace. There's already too many players in cars they can't control as proven by The Trial each week. Looking forward to your next video.
I thinking something that should have been brought up is the ammount of players that actually do rival times, in older games it was an achievement getting top 1000. The gap from being off the fastest lap was normally half a second or less in top 1000, but here top 1000 can be multiple seconds off from the 1st legit time
Much to agree with here. Sadly, I don't think we can change the game - the devs seem happy with the way things are, and why wouldn't they be ($$$)? I've recently started a new channel which I hope addresses one of the points you make, which is to up-skill new players, specifically in rivals. It's early days, a lot of work, and and it might be a terrible idea, but that's never stopped me before :)
Thank you for this video, I was wondering how good my times actually were and how many were just done for completion or hacked. I do mostly do dirt s2 now.
Unbeatable is beatable, but some Road Racings + Teotihuacan Drag are not. I noticed the more the 1st drivatar is far from you, the drivatar takes corners and 90° corners too fast. During the Goliath, I was winning with a significant advantage, surprisingly a Drivatar overtook me on the sharp S corners WITHOUT BRAKING OR DECELERATE! That was hilarious. It looked like a magnetic toy car from the 80s.
i looked into it a little and the biggest problems with unbeatable are the PI system and the starting grid. You can do better than the 1st place car but since you started 6 seconds behind in a 3 lap race you need to not only match the computer you have to beat it by like 5 seconds per lap. The other thing that can happen is if you're using a handling build on a top speed race or the like, a NIO EP9 or hotwheels BTTB isn't going to keep up with the AI moslers and brabhams unless they throw hard after the suspension bridge, some races none of the other vintage racers will keep up with an AI maserati 8ctf, and running anything on chihuahua or bola ocho will have a hard time getting through all the traffic in s2 but it's worse for a rimac. unbeatable would be significantly easier if you had the pole or even if ghosting was on for the first minute like online.
Some S2 class races on unbeatable are pretty close to unbeatable. If you see a drivatar in the Hoonigan RS200 for example...just give up. The AI breaks physics in order to pose a sterner challenge. This is something Turn 10 acknowledged in their Forza Motorsport event. They said the new FM will be the first installment where the AI will drive based on skill alone, which tells us what we've known all along, that the AI gets given some assists by the devs in order to be competitive at the hardest difficulties, and I'm almsot certain the same is true in Horizon.
@@kaiserruhsam No, I'm talking about S2 on road. Certain cars on unbeatable(whatever the hardest AI is called) are basically broken. Sometimes it's the Hoonigan RS200, sometimes it's the CCGT, it doesn' make any sense because one of those cars is much less of a racecar than the other, but there've been one or two times when I've had to rewind and ram the AI to even get near to first.
I finally got into Horizon a month or two ago after being a big NFS fan (still am, tbh). I don't know where my actual level is, probably well below the true top players. But I like FH5 because the AI is actually competitive. AI in NFS never really offers a challenge. That said, one frustration I have with Horizon is that the AI seems to fudge the physics, almost to a shocking degree. Like, I've had drivatars push me out of the way or blatantly steal my line. I want to move up to Unbeatable. I think my handling is at that level--may not be, I don't know. But I really need to work on my tuning/car choice. Your videos have helped a lot. But when the drivatars are pulling away on a long straight, I know my car is part of the problem.
@@blisterbrain Thanks for the confirmation. I've noticed that, especially in rally races. It also doesn't help that you start in the back, allowing the pole drivatar to pull away as you negotiate the pack. One race I restarted a dozen or so times. The lead drivatar and I were 150ish meters ahead of the field. Eventually, I just said "screw it," and instead of setting up my line for the final 70-degree corner, I just let it rip and t-boned the drivatar as it was making the turn. That was on Pro--the problems only compound on Unbeatable. It's not fun to focus on disrupting the drivatars instead of actual good driving
@@HokiHoshi it was on the Joya Marron time trial (ua-cam.com/video/nLEYFFDNFxQ/v-deo.html), i think he like was #25 or something. It was joke but it was also true
ive been a game designer for some competitive games and I can tell you confidently that top 10% are just people who got the basics done and are 'competent'. This goes for every game. Only 10% of the community puts in the effort to learn the 'real' game, and only 10% of that 10% are truly 'amazing' at the game. That amounts to the top 1%. Games recently have been willing to let people who arent in that top 10% to feel like theyre good and feel better than they really are
The same arguments here apply to drifting in Horizon, which is my main interest. Go to the volcano drift zone and last time I checked the entire top 100 was hacked. The first legitimate score was somewhere like 108th place or something. For those of us who spent months breaking into the world top 200-400 on driftzones it's frustrating to see a score that really should be somewhere in the top 100 barely make into the top 500 in the world. I just stopped bothering with driftzones after the reset of the leaderboards. It wiped all my scores and I could not be bothered re-running any of the driftzones only to barely reach 400th on a run that should've been a lot higher. I know these are good scores, nothing to be ashamed of, but when no-one trusts the scores anyway it's not exactly something you can brag about. Also, the hacking problem goes deeper: there's no real way of knowing if _any_ of the scores are legit, because it's perfectly possible for people to hack a run and still come in with a score that looks impressive but achievable. The only difference between them and the obvciously hacked scores is that they were cleverer about it, and didn't end up with a score that's fifteen times the mathematical maximum. My solution for driftzones would at least be recorded ghost runs for the top 100 so we can actualy go and check. But really something drastic needs to change or else drift leaderboards in particular(because there's no ghost recording like Rivals) are going to be considered worthless in future releases.
I base my driving skill of my experience I’ve been playing forza since motorsport 3 I used to compete competitively in 3,4, and 5 and even did A, and B class tournaments in all games I’ve learned so much about how to properly tune and setup a car to do exactly what I want it to do and this shows when I play FH5 I win about 90% of all Viper events I’m usually 6-8 seconds ahead of second place and I can do this without cutting corners or clipping checkpoints the skill gap is very clear everytime I play online but I have noticed that the game it self rewards bad driving and that’s something I don’t like I’ve lost race to terrible drivers that slam into you so they can slow down and their rewarded for it I’ve had people in front of me literally ride the wall to take a turn instead of properly hitting the braking point and instead of the game slowing them down like you would in real life if you if a Barrier going 100+ mph but they just slide of the wall and get a huge advantage out of a corner stuff like that has to be changed there needs to be penalties for poor driving drivers shouldn’t get rewarded for stuff like that
Interesting discussion. And this doesn't even touch on the fact that fast rivals times do not necessarily equate to a fast race driver. Being able to set fast lap times is of course essential to a race driver, but there's more to it with other cars on the track. One obstacle I do see for Horizon to try and encourage a more competitive area of the game is the disparity in certain cars and tunes. The PI system is interesting, but because it's a hard class cut off and the ways in which it can be gamed make it more of an advantage to those who know how to use it. Arguably that's part of the skill of the game, but it isn't part of pure driving skill. And finding good tunes from creators without going to external sites is an absolute mess.
Never understood why ranked mode was taken out. All we asked for was for ranked mode to be reworked in more of an competitive and skill stance from FH4 and they decided to scrap it. FH5 without ranked has no real purpose to grind. Finding communities to race competitively is the only way to keep it alive. Hopefully this new Motorsport doesn’t disappoint like FM7 did.
Yeah I thought I was an above average player until I played against the K12 guys in a public lobby. In A class they were managing 1:03.2 -1:03.9 times with the new Lotus Emira. At the same time the best I could manage in the most OP car I have (S209 STI) is a 1:04.4 in rivals after a hundred laps or so. The next best racer was managing 1:06 in that race. It’s crazy to see them out run my OP car by a second and a half while they blitz the rest of the lobby by 3 seconds or more a lap.
There is always someone better, even if they've never played. Also, people do use glitches and mods, including cars. Don't beat yourself up over not being the percieved best. Just have fun! The best players are good sports.
I know this is an older post, but, for me, Horizon is mostly just for driving around exploring, and experiencing different vehicles. Personally, I hate having to "win" to experience everything the game has to offer. It'd be cool, if we could sign in as "Explorers," "Racers," "Car Shower," "Cruiser," etc., and get gameplay tailored to each. That said, I'll still do what I have to so I can [then] do what I want to.
Ive recently gotten into more competitive racing. I never tuned and just compensated with driving and it was enough to beat my friends. But I've met a bloke who made me work way to hard to just keep a semblance of pace and i was genuinely excited for the first time in a long time to have a limit to break, and even this guy said I was forcing him to make mistakes because I was breathing down his neck 😂
For me the problem comes down to having the wrong build. I try to make well rounded builds so I can use them in any type of race, meaning more straights, more turns, circuit sprint or street. Obviously off road vs on road is different. But when playing against unbeatable drivatars or online it often comes down to my car just can't turn as well or doesn't have the same top speed and I just get left behind. Its not a fun way to lose and worse even the only way to "get better" in that aspect is quit out, fast travel to garage, and spend a bunch of time menuing. I don't enjoy all power builds that can't turn. I enjoy realistic builds. Mostly this just comes down to the PI scaling and I understand it is near impossible to balance 100s of cars with 1000s of combinations of parts each. Why not just scale off top speed and handling instead of an imaginary lap time though?
For the record, if anyone DOES want a challenging GT style license system in FH5...
GO DO HRA ITS COMMUNITY RUN AND APPLIES TO FIDA ELO AND IT'S AMAZING!!
discord.gg/rdVc6kfzTU
I am going to fail Novice - 1 repeatedly and there is nothing you can do to stop me 😎
@@kspectre21 there are guides to help you through it now ;)
@@CastHasteRacing No, failure is inevitable
Success is nothing but a fantasy
@@kspectre21 well when you get tired of the failure, it's there for you. Fantasy can turn into success with a bit of effort ;) I believe!
@@CastHasteRacing Thank you ;)
Don't worry, Hoki. I-I didn't
lol
a
🤨
…
Felt that
I know i'm slow; I drive stock cars without tuning them because i'm working on my general driving skill; but it's always hilarious watching others fly off the track in online races 😂
I mostly play on a wheel and absolutely love racing completely stock cars. A few other people I race are on wheels as well, and they thoroughly enjoy the same thing. We ended up making our own leaderboards of vehicle records, seeing who can go the fastest in the exact same vehicle. It's nice, competitive, and is a level playing field. 🙏🏽
@@DaddyCRUDEI find it frustrating how many players just wanna go 300mph
@@HPsawus yeah, I'd rather experience cornering and trying to get around a circuit as fast as possible in a completely stock car! 🤙🏾
I just like turning people into my handbrake loll
@@DaddyCRUDE Agreed 100%
I'd also like to see filters for assists like which transmission type people use, and especially filtering AWD power builds where RWD or FWD are expected.
Same with controller vs steering wheel.
powerbuilds are RWD or FWD
AWD is worse than RWD in most cases in Rivals, and AWD powerbuilds don’t exist. Powerbuilds are only RWD or FWD.
I miss assist filters for leaderboards, I hate that they took that away
@@HarmGeerts or keyboard
In Forza Horizon 1 there was a progressive main story line, in-game charater Rivals that you really wanted to beat, bracelets. And tunning cars to a certain performance class was requiered. And also the famous outpost challenges that gived discount and were sometimes pretty hard and needed pactice to complete
Am I alone to miss those things and would kind of want them back?
I beat FH1 with only stock cars on hard AI
@PigIlFigo32 Yeah AI were not too bad to beat. But they were fun because they had a specific way to drive for some character. For example Flynt was skipping checkpoint and cutting corners. What I thought was harder, were the outpost challenges like: Not hitting anything for 2 min straight while keeping the speed over 360km/h or 224 mph. Especially on "S" shaped roads like we had in Forza Horizon 1
You arent alone but a vocal minority.
@warfarelover1 It was a special experience. Did you get the chance to try FH1?
There are plenty of videos talking about how FH4 and FH5 have regressed in many aspects compared to 1,2 and 3. Some of these aspects regarding progression are sadly not exclusive to the Forza series, and many other new games share the same problem. I miss the old NFS entries too. I had watched a few of these videos just a couple of days ago and wrote this comment, so I will paste it back here:
FH5 gets the driving right, and then messes everything else up. It's like the game is constantly trying to distract you and keep you from driving.
- Story-wise, you get treated as a star right from the introduction, there's no build-up and nothing to achieve. The game starts right away with long and unskippable cutscenes, and boring events where you just have to follow an arrow for 15 minutes until you reach the end.
- Progression-wise, there is none. You start with all 3 cars regardless of your choice and the Corvette is already a powerhouse. Then you open up your mailbox and receive tons of top tier cars for no reason, or you can receive them randomly on a level up roulette. And since most of the progression, and even gaining credits, are tied to wheelspins, there is little to no incentive to turning off the driving assists to earn a bit more credits per race. The bonus amount is largely irrelevant.
- The UI is completely unintuitive and full of long and cumbersome animations and loading screens. Switching cars and tuning them is a chore. If you download a tune from another user, you're not able to change any aspects of it for no reason, so if you want to make a change you have to start your own from scratch. You can't tune a car outside of your house, so if you're planning on testing more than a single car, you have to tune all of them at once before you drive off to the events. Everything is locked behind meaningless animations and having to go back to your house.
The game's obvious push for DEI doesn't help it either, but I guess that's expected from modern Microsoft.
What I would believe would be a cool idea is to have for every track to have set medals. I thought you could do this like Trackmania. There is Gold Silver and Bronze and then also a much more difficult author time, which is an actual time from the creator of the track. Having these set times gives you a much better perspective if your lap times are good or not and would maybe bring players to grind for these medals
those work well in trackmania because everyone drives the same car. in forza, even a single car with different tunes can result in massively different laptimes even assuming perfect driving.
@@0xGRIDRUNRCreators could set a lap in one of their own cars and let players drive it too, much like in the Super 7 events
@@ggj1987 even then the issue would persist, unless somehow the devs know what the entire meta is ahead of time which is never gonna happen lmao
This worked in project Gotham racing 2
Forza have cheaters who take the track for 1 second so this is cheater contest
I am generally a casual player, mainly I dislike online racing in general due to being yeeted in to the walls one to many time to want to deal with other humans. I do like rivals though. I don’t really care about my leader board placement, but I get a clean track with 0 extra cars and I can go for hours just seeing how clean and fast I can get my personal best. The fact I also get exp and credits are a nice bonus as well.
I don’t mind all the dirty or stupidly high times on the boards, but I would like to see cheated times removed on principle if for no other reason.
If you ever want to jump into clean racing leagues (which arent 100% tryhard hubs) I recommend hoki's htcc and racing haven, you always get clean racing, and if dirtiness ever happens, there are dedicated race control teams to handle it :)
I do agree with one of your points, rivals lap times should be clean times only.
I consistently get times in the top 1000-2000, but even then I’m still slow especially when I race against some other people like you and your group (love watching your streams by the way).
Depends on a few factors because there's no ways a CCGT or Mosler is beating the Brabham in S2. So unless you have the meta cars, you probably aren't bad
@@valkeitos True, but even with meta cars I still have trouble cracking into the 1000s. So it’s not just the car and/or tune that makes the really fast players fast, it’s the brake, throttle, and steering control. I’ve greatly improved brake and throttle control just by really taking time to learn how to tune (within Forza physics anyway) which has given me a much better understanding of weight transfer.
Aside from consistency lap to lap, I find the hardest thing to do is manage steering angle with the controller. I’m definitely better than I was, but I find it much harder to drive proper racing lines with the controller.
With that said, I also acknowledge that I never played any kind of racing game until a few months after FH5 released. Trying to compare my “skills” to someone like Hoki or ESV mars, etc is not a fair comparison because they’ve been playing these types of games FAR longer than I have….but I have much higher expectations of myself and like to compete so I don’t like to fall back on that excuse.
@@valkeitoskinda true, it depends on the driver. Also depends on the track. Most times brab can gain .5 - 2 seconds on ccgt and mosler is track dependent. Unless you're against people who are really really good, if you have the skill you can use either car on the tracks they are respectively strong on to beat brabham. Ofc it's an advantage, I'm not denying that. Just saying it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be unless you're against really good players as a really good player.
@@kennedy31I’ve found that by looking as far forward into the track as I could, my steering and throttle application became much smoother and more efficient. Hopefully that helps but just take your time.
I'm usually in the top 1% at least in forza motorsport. I'm about 1 second behind per lap on the top people. So I'd say I'm still a relatively quick racer
I could care less about being competitive on Forza Horizon 5 the only reason why I play the game is to have fun and exploration .
exactly what a loser would say
That sounds like the right idea.
So you care. Either a lot or a little bit we just can't tell
I like experiencing cars that I'll never get the chance to drive real world. Even IF I could afford to buy a different car every month, it would take decades to work through every one offered in FH5 (or any of the other iterations). If the experience isn't exact, I'll never know. So, I just assume it is, and let the smiles happen.
A friend of mine is a seasoned sim racer (multiple hour races and so on). When he gave FH5 a try we decided to compete in rivals. We tuned a car together and when it was done he was sitting at top150 times and he basically beat me on most tracks but i gave him a run for his money. The one thing i noticed afterwards was that a huge amount of players are really bad at braking. If they improved this one skill there might be a lot more faster times.
I'm not worried about who is fastest, I just wanna play and drive fast cars and have a good time.
Making goals harder to reach will inevitably put them _out of reach_ for the players that can't find the time or willpower to master a game to the level required. It'll help those interested in being better drivers get more out of the game, and tying it into the narrative could be a brilliant way to set up the endgame, encouraging players to take pride in honing their skills.
However, I wonder how controversial a take this might be. There is likely a sizeable contingent of players who, no matter what, will ask "why should I CARE if I'm slow".
people get real mad when you lock people out of meaningful content on a time and skill basis, but the reaction to that is often toxic af too. see discourse about darksouls.
lots of people play for mindless fun rather than for mastery and it's tough to remain fair to both groups. Hard modes are played by tiny minorities of players so it doesn't make business sense for most places to spend resources to cater to the top end of mastery players. Capitalism probably isn't going anywhere so you're not going to find games that make that kind of demand of players or put lots of resources into getting people to actually try unless somebody is making money on esports and they actually manage to build a farm system like minor league baseball.
solution imo is to have both low hanging and high hanging fruit. Both should have reasonable rewards. There would goals such as "drive every road" or "own every car" that the casal gamer can chase AND achieve, and lets say the reward is something like a forza edition car. You are being rewarded for time spent versus skill. Then there would be the more exclusive rewards, locked behind skill based goals. This can be exclusive liveries, custom options for the car, or even a prize only meant for the select few like a 1% exclusive prize. This is being rewarded for skill displayed over time played. Both tiers of goals should be desirable, but the one that is clearly more strenuous should reward better.
Inversely, this system could still remain 2 tiers of rewards, but instead work like a "battle pass", or race day pass instead. You can unlock goals by either committing time and unlocking game play milestones (play 100 hours, time spent in first place, etc) OR complete skill gates to unlock them (beat x amount of unbeatable podium drivers, complete braking challenge on x tracks. Players have the option as to HOW they want to unlock milestones. Both are grinds, but both require a different approach to unlock.
> put them out of reach for the players that can't find the time
Enter, limited-time playlist exclusive cars.
I don't mind earning rewards through effort. The playlist isn't that. It's check in, get cars. Or miss out if you happen to have a busy week.
What I'm trying to say is, the thing you mentioned is already there in the game. So PG really can't should be able to use that as an excuse.
This right here is how youtube comment sections should be actual conversations based off the content
@@kaiserruhsamFinding the way to cater to both is how you end up with timeless games like Chess, Tetris or Minecraft
3:33 if I missed that checkpoint it would have respawn me
Hoki once again representing the competitive community better than any other youtuber. Such a good job linking competitive and truly fast players with a more casual audience who may be slightly ignorant of the true state of leaderboards and skill gaps in horizon.
Yes, GT style license systems, I agree this is something that would improve the quality of life in the game. The Community has it handled (sort of... we don't have a great way to teach racecraft sadly) with HRA, but it would be better if it was built into the game. Special rewards for all 3 stars/golds is a very GT reward system too that I agree with. Hopefully we can do that in the future with HRA, but oh boy that would be a heavy lift with the constant changes.
All that said, great topic, great take, and please join us at HRA! ❤
Honestly I’m glad Forza is like this, it’s my relax game, if I want to play a game where I need to concentrate more and improve all the time I’ll play Dirt Rally or something. Most players simply don’t give a shit about being competitive on horizon which is refreshing for once.
The fact there IS no push to better myself is why I love doing it compared to when everything insists I try hard. I can just vibe and let everything become habit. In anything else this becomes frustrating and not fun yet in horizon it's my zen, frequently poking into the top 1k in various rivals and dominating events the few times I choose to race online. It makes me happy going into the trial or your knowing I have a good chance of helping everyone else beat it even if it's something I'm not fond of driving, such as cross country.
I definitely don't think I am fast but I do think a lot of the 3 star stuff right now is more about cheesing rather than actual good driving which makes me think making it harder to achieve the 3 star alone won't do much. At least that is my opinion and experience attempting to 3 star stuff in the game. I could be very wrong though.
When I was still playing this game I always raced online using auto driving. I would consistently be in the top 3 of each race. I don't have any disabilities but I loved using it it felt like slot cars if you turn off auto brake.
I only classify a "good player" if there fast enough to get into teamwars or are nearly able to be in team wars, which must be the 0.2% or something of players
Same here.
Even after 3k+ hours of mainly rivals and racing, I can't get near them.
Just don't have it in the fingers 🤷♂️
if we take teamwars players as 3000 people (its less) and then the amount of non competitive horizon players lets say its 2 million (its more) its more like 0.0015% or even less
@@razkinzmangowurzel I didn't want to say a super small % just bc I might have been wrong and I didn't have the time to properly calculate things but yeah that's probably right
@@NDL_Silva yeah i get u, was just reinforcing ur point really
@@razkinzmangowurzel Well, we do know that there r also people who r fast but not there in TW. But assuming all the fast guys r all TW members, yes
Wouldn’t be an issue if laps from single player and private co-op weren’t sent to the leaderboard. Almost every single lap 1 is going to be flagged for collision, every lap 2 will be flagged for slipstreaming, and lap 3 is usually their only chance to get something clean. And then sprints are hopeless. Removing dirty times is a good idea.
At least they do flag dirty laps.
So everyone smacks you first corner since theres no punishment?
I would love if features that are in trackmania, would be implemented in Forza. Like author time but for challenges with stars, obvl. a good leaderboard where getting a good time matters and people compete for them...
Author time wouldn't be as useful because not everyone is in the same car
omg. Someone finally gets its. Someone is finally talking about the skill disparity in forza, and the effect it has on the playerbase and over all enjoyability of the game. Near the end, when you compared the horizon story to GT license tests, i have never gotten that far in my theory on what Forza can do to improve the abyssmal skill disparity, but i have complained on quite a few forza related vids AND reddit post that what the game needs is something to TEACH the players how to race, not how to play the game....but HOW TO RACE. Have like little challenges you can earn wheel spins or rare cars from. Things like a braking distance challenge, a launch/0-60 challenge, a "how many cars can you pass" challenge. Shit, for an open world game based on car culture, im very surprised there is not a single AUTO CROSS feature in this game. That feature was in FM7 AND FM6. For what they tout as "their most comprehensive and technologically advanced game to date", how are they missing pieces that were components of games considered their junior?
I swear, the developers at turn 10 don't seem to appreciate what they have on their hands.
Driving manual improved my skill/speed immediately.
I had completely forgotten that people use assists...
There's just no fun with assists.
There are so many other ways to enjoy the horizon games outside of comparing times on leaderboards and getting torpedo’d in online races.
Does running ABS and forza aero on all my rwd cars make me a slow noob? Dilligaf.
I’m still having fun building custom circuits and unlocking the festival playlist car each week.
Facts. Hot wheels, horizon adventure, Goliath, car meets, playground games, cruising, rally adventure, drifting, painting, all kinda stuff.
I became interested in rivals very early on in fh5 and grindes for top 1,000 times and it helped me become a better driver than most other people.
Damn guess I’m skill issued
Mars finally exposed [REAL]
@@HokiHoshiheyoo mars 😊
trials mode is usually a good place to find the best in horizons community. often times if i have a good race with someone they'll message me saying it was a good race instead of just ragequitting if they get passed at the line. i occasionally find a top player in the trials as well and a couple times weve shared how to help improve our vehicle tunes. i love a community that just collectively wants to better themeselves like this.
Wish I got your lobbies, I just get high levels that usually sit in the back for the whole race
Unexpected, but very welcome vid, huge W
omg hi
@@ESV_Green OMG GREN
Having run a large Forza Discord server for a while, I've found that Rivals is generally not a good gauge for racing speed. Many people I knew that could casually set top 500 Rivals times whenever they felt like it cracked under the pressure of wheel to wheel. Perfecting lines is one thing. Racing is another.
Ways to make forza skillgap less bad: give us a motorsport game worth playing where people can be competitive in an environment more accommodating to it 💀
I love your voice and your mic. You have such a familiar and comforting tone.
I never thought I was fast but still an entertaining video.
Back on FH4 my approach (inspired by your videos back then btw) was to tryhard monthly rivals until I get into the 1% club.
I had decided to get all top 1% with class B (I love my MX-5s) on all of the circuit road courses a while back. And I found much of the same things you did in that particular journey. I did not use any assists beyond ABS and TCS, and the true gain I came away with was getting a LOT better with the wheel/pedal set I have. And gaining the confidence to move towards more serious sims.
I think the AI/tire improvements for Motorsport should go into Horizon 6 (if they work). With some kind of better online policing system like you mentioned.
There are no AI/Tyre wear improvement in FM8
I'd like to state to everyone that the term "accomplishment" is a term that can be used loosely and with opinion, he raises a good argument, but if it is an accomplishment to you for what you do, don't let someone else tell you that it is otherwise.
😭
Racing with some of the Comp community for the first time is an incredibly humbling experience lol
I feel so washed nowadays even though I've been getting better albeit fairly slowly.
I'm fairly satisfied with my Top 500-1000 on some tracks though, especially when I get those rare occasions where a Track and Car combo just clicks and I can get it down below 100.
I know I'm still several seconds behind the top guys but I don't think I'll ever be on their level lol
Atleast the Leaderboard cleanup is still ongoing in terms of hackers but it is slow.
ur getting there man, uve improved significantly while ive known u
(xwingmike here) TBH, I haven't even made the jump to driving Manual or Manual W/ Clutch yet, which is yet another massive barrier to competitive racing. So long as I find myself among the top 2-3 automatic times within the club's Rivals, I'm happy.
That said, I haven't paid much attention to rivals in a long while, and this video was a bit eye opening.
@@razkinzmangowurzel lol thanks, progress is slow but I'm getting there ;)
@@x-wingmike Hey Xwing 👋
I jumped to Manual soon after the FH5 release and now I can't go back, it's easy once you get it down but Automatic served me well for many years.
I normally do Rivals for fun nowadays and to see how I stack up, it's quite nice to improve just by challenging your own times and seeing where you went wrong
I really liked the achievements from previous games that require you to beat a specific time around a given map’s Goliath/Goliath equivalent track with a certain car.
It would be cool to have that again.
Also, if Rivals were between every individual car without performance restrictions or with every possible class for each car.
With every car only being against itself, that could potentially be a method of filtering out the pointless times.
I'll never forget my first rivals leaderboard attempt in this game, my controller died midway through the lap. I quickly reconnected and completed the lap just to see the rest of the track. When I exited I had a top 1% time, so I do not trust the leaderboards for a second. I now go according to the literal leaderboard rank minus the hacked times. In my opinion, top 500 is a really good player.
I usually make the monthly rivals using reverse only. And when a clean lap is done I bugger off to something else.
So much of what you mentioned is true.
/DBB
I knew the leaderboard times weren’t an adequate gauge when I was able to set a time in the top 5% on all of them. That really shouldn’t be possible.
I remember doing some Rivals in FH4 and coming cop 2-1% and feeling pretty good. Then I remember grinding away at others with the best car I had and struggling to get top 5%. I found monthly rivals easier though generally scoring top 1% after a few laps.
Your dog is just too cracked fr
So, when is his [ * 1% * ] tryouts??
My best racing was in Need for Speed Shift and Shift 2. EA sponsored "Hot Lap" contests. Video of lap submitted to EA. I worked hard on those, won three of them. Hand penciled spread sheets to track car setups. Have over 100 videos saved. Good memories. Best to all!
I think one of the issues is that there is a big section of the racing game community (including the sim side) that only wants their "progression" to be unlocking events, buying expensive cars, or getting little gold medals next to all of the events on a checklist. They don't care at all about their progression as a driver or their skills... Which is kind of okay, people can play how they want after all.
A lot racing games are designed to have your own developing skills be a part of the progression in the title (moreso on the sim side, but lots of racing games in general do), and when that part of the progression doesn't resonate with these "complete the checklist" type of players, those players whine and demand changes for future titles and abandon titles quickly instead of trying to learn to get better and finding fun in the challenge of improving.
It seems a particularly big issue in the kind of middle of the road series like FM and GT.
I think they did everything right. In my eyes it is more a driving game than a racing game
I’m happy if my tunes can get into the top 20% of rivals. I don’t play online. I just want to have an enjoyable experience
"Yay I just beat the unbeatable difficulty"
New difficulty unlocked:
*isad would like to know your location*
I think I'm decent at drifting in FH5. I was really into it in FH4, and played ranked online drifting a lot. I still play the drift adventure now, and it seems like I win the majority of the rounds I play.
one gripe i have with the maxing pi level is some cars can't max out on some pi classes with some upgrade choices we as players make like for example i like building on the stock motor's performance and some cars because of that do not max out at some pi classes i have a maxed out stock engine r32 and it is very competitive at s1 so that pi warning does not help with that
The game does warn if you bring an under powered car to a race, it will say that C or D class car will make for an unusually long time (paraphrased). Otherwise, yeah some PI warning would be helpful...in general...people bring low PI and/or untuned/non tuned cars on the online trial and in MP is a little annoying...
well im top 7k on the touge race i forgot the name of it but now you're making me reconsider if that was even a good time
I consider the best players the ones in the top 100 legitimate times. I've only done this on one circuit in FH5, and it took hours and hours.
Honestly even top 100 times can have 10 second or more gaps from 1st to 100th. It really depends on how popular the track is tbh
I pretty much gave up on any notions of realism or legitimate competition when I realized this game lets you make a WWII Willys Jeep exceed 230 mph. This game is a sandbox to dick around in, nothing more.
I totally agree with you on this because the skill gap even just between me and most players who think they're good is quite large. I'm a PR stunt player and do Rivals quite often and I can usually get top 1k but even then it's hard to say from a general standpoint how good I am compared to the other people in close range. I'd consider myself a Pro driver in this game but I've had people disagree and say that I should be within the top 100 or even 500 so...
With the leaderboards showing single player and rivals times I always looked at the top 10% as those players in rivals mode, so top 1% was really top 10% of the players trying to beat the clock. Seperate single player and rivals leaderboards would be a nice addition, and a stock vs modifed filter would be nice to find a fast base car to start tuning, I'm an ok driver but a junk tuner a better starting point is always helpful.
As a rule of thumb, Rivals times are irelevant because cheat and hack engines allowing times that are impossible.
Heck even in regular playing like for example doing one of those pathfinding missions, they have max time at the top.
Like the contestant literally teleported at the destination gate the second they passed the start gate.
And that is what they actually do, there is specific hacking option that teleports the cheater to the finish line.
YAY.
Sadly the game developers are focused on releasing paid DLCs with new and new cars instead of addressing issues of the game itself.
So I believe the last Motorsport did something similar to what you mentioned with the warning of PI level. They just used "homologation" ranking and terms instead. I think it would he at home very well in a horizon game.
As someone who likes to cruise around the map a 70 mph... I see this as an absolute win.
I am happy with the game, as it is!
Video liked for racing dog!
I don’t know if this video applies to me having set top 1-2% laps on Horizon and Motorsport, and getting podium online whenever I don’t get crashed out. Been playing and loving Forza’s since 2010 with thousands of hours. There’s probably kids born that year playing the game now 😭
As you mention in this video, the numbers are skewed by people who didn’t set a good time, or cheating and hacker times. Even meta cars vs your own tuned car. That’s why I pay especially less attention to Horizon leaderboards with it’s more arcade physics and massive player count. It does also suck that accessibility settings can cheese the leaderboards when they’re there for people who need them.
The best thing to do, I've found, is spend some time online on the volcano looking for a lobby with some decent racing convoys in it. Measure yourself against them until you find one that's whipping you, then make friends with them so you can measure your times against them in Rivals.
Tldw There is no ranked racing therefore rivals here IS the ranked endgame and they have dropped the ball on rankings by being ignorant and lazy
I never was fast. I also soon realized how slow I was after playing horizon open for the first time and sorta realized that the walls were actually avoidable by all standards and that I didn’t know how to play the game that well, but most people have the same issue too.
Every now and then I can pull of wins in upper level advanced ai with stock cars, but it takes a bit of skill depending on the car and how much of a disadvantage you are at.
How do you get the speed/tachometer to display the tire temperature telemetry there at 2:02 ??????
Been pulling my hair out with the Telemetry menu and settings.
Note: I already set my controls to default and swapped Anna controls to Telemetry controls already, and that menu is obnoxious during a race. Please don't tell me to do those things. I don't have money for Game Pass or Motorsport, so please don't suggest those either.
I am also curious!!!
One of the best feelings I've ever gotten was when I got into the top 100 times in the world on an S2 rally in fh4. That's when I knew I had gotten gud.
Woah that dog is so good at Forza, let's go!
Good video, im one of the just for fun forza players. Spent too much time being good at games, only full game im happy just being ok at
Just love a new race no matter the difficulty
I think they should add an "Motorsport physics" option, so you could really test your skills.
Unless they start monetizing more for the live service part of the game, I don't think they'll be too keen to invest in things like ranked mode because it can need significant resources and the current structure of the team at most can support smaller free updates. If they decide to make the game full live service and get rid of numbered new entries, then it seems possible to scale up those parts of the game.
As our elders have shown us, the only one true way of finding out who's better is: one v one me bro on rust
I wish we could filter all the way down to make and model, I would be very interested in trying to build, as an example, the fastest A Class Volvo 850R on a specific track.
I wanted to rant about the conflict of splitting casual-competitive but honestly: thanks for making these videos for such a small title WITHOUT being polemic or toxic and wrapping up with on a good note. It shows you care about the lower end skilled players and appreciate them altough sacrificing qualities that you can only get in motorsport titles
"AI chess bots can beat some of the world's best players": any modern chess engine running on anything more powerful than a smart phone will beat any human player every single time. Chess engines have elo ratings eight *hundred* points higher than the highest ever elo rating achieved by a human. The difference is so vast that a human being *using the same chess engine they are playing against to assist their play* will still lose to the chess engine every time.
used to think "oh ive got top 1% in every road race imma mince everyone online" and got my ass handed to me, that is the day i realised that percentage means almost nothing
All good points Hoki and a good video, I do however disagree with the idea of a warning about your car not being at max PI for that track/challenge. I just feel that could hinder player development by encouraging players into cars too fast for them. Let a player build their ability up to challenge the times at their pace. There's already too many players in cars they can't control as proven by The Trial each week.
Looking forward to your next video.
I thinking something that should have been brought up is the ammount of players that actually do rival times, in older games it was an achievement getting top 1000. The gap from being off the fastest lap was normally half a second or less in top 1000, but here top 1000 can be multiple seconds off from the 1st legit time
Much to agree with here. Sadly, I don't think we can change the game - the devs seem happy with the way things are, and why wouldn't they be ($$$)? I've recently started a new channel which I hope addresses one of the points you make, which is to up-skill new players, specifically in rivals. It's early days, a lot of work, and and it might be a terrible idea, but that's never stopped me before :)
Thank you for this video, I was wondering how good my times actually were and how many were just done for completion or hacked. I do mostly do dirt s2 now.
Unbeatable is beatable, but some Road Racings + Teotihuacan Drag are not. I noticed the more the 1st drivatar is far from you, the drivatar takes corners and 90° corners too fast. During the Goliath, I was winning with a significant advantage, surprisingly a Drivatar overtook me on the sharp S corners WITHOUT BRAKING OR DECELERATE! That was hilarious. It looked like a magnetic toy car from the 80s.
i looked into it a little and the biggest problems with unbeatable are the PI system and the starting grid. You can do better than the 1st place car but since you started 6 seconds behind in a 3 lap race you need to not only match the computer you have to beat it by like 5 seconds per lap. The other thing that can happen is if you're using a handling build on a top speed race or the like, a NIO EP9 or hotwheels BTTB isn't going to keep up with the AI moslers and brabhams unless they throw hard after the suspension bridge, some races none of the other vintage racers will keep up with an AI maserati 8ctf, and running anything on chihuahua or bola ocho will have a hard time getting through all the traffic in s2 but it's worse for a rimac.
unbeatable would be significantly easier if you had the pole or even if ghosting was on for the first minute like online.
Some S2 class races on unbeatable are pretty close to unbeatable. If you see a drivatar in the Hoonigan RS200 for example...just give up. The AI breaks physics in order to pose a sterner challenge. This is something Turn 10 acknowledged in their Forza Motorsport event. They said the new FM will be the first installment where the AI will drive based on skill alone, which tells us what we've known all along, that the AI gets given some assists by the devs in order to be competitive at the hardest difficulties, and I'm almsot certain the same is true in Horizon.
@@thesprawl2361 nah i'm usually not troubled by the ai on offroad s2 but i'm in a rimac c2 for that most of the time and catch up by the third corner
@@kaiserruhsam No, I'm talking about S2 on road. Certain cars on unbeatable(whatever the hardest AI is called) are basically broken. Sometimes it's the Hoonigan RS200, sometimes it's the CCGT, it doesn' make any sense because one of those cars is much less of a racecar than the other, but there've been one or two times when I've had to rewind and ram the AI to even get near to first.
@@thesprawl2361 oh huh that's wild. i can't remember the last time i saw an rs200 in a road or street race
Your dog is adorable!
I finally got into Horizon a month or two ago after being a big NFS fan (still am, tbh). I don't know where my actual level is, probably well below the true top players. But I like FH5 because the AI is actually competitive. AI in NFS never really offers a challenge. That said, one frustration I have with Horizon is that the AI seems to fudge the physics, almost to a shocking degree. Like, I've had drivatars push me out of the way or blatantly steal my line. I want to move up to Unbeatable. I think my handling is at that level--may not be, I don't know. But I really need to work on my tuning/car choice. Your videos have helped a lot. But when the drivatars are pulling away on a long straight, I know my car is part of the problem.
The cheating AI really forces you to drive dirty to pass the final unbeatable drivatar on a lot of tracks, unfortunately.
@@blisterbrain Thanks for the confirmation. I've noticed that, especially in rally races. It also doesn't help that you start in the back, allowing the pole drivatar to pull away as you negotiate the pack.
One race I restarted a dozen or so times. The lead drivatar and I were 150ish meters ahead of the field. Eventually, I just said "screw it," and instead of setting up my line for the final 70-degree corner, I just let it rip and t-boned the drivatar as it was making the turn. That was on Pro--the problems only compound on Unbeatable. It's not fun to focus on disrupting the drivatars instead of actual good driving
From my experience in live online races, I'm in the middle of the pack. I usually fall somewhere around 2nd - 4th place.
I beat a bone shaker offroad once (without using the bone shaker) so you could say I'm a pretty big deal
big if true
Proof, or it didn't happen
@@HokiHoshi it was on the Joya Marron time trial (ua-cam.com/video/nLEYFFDNFxQ/v-deo.html), i think he like was #25 or something. It was joke but it was also true
ive been a game designer for some competitive games and I can tell you confidently that top 10% are just people who got the basics done and are 'competent'. This goes for every game. Only 10% of the community puts in the effort to learn the 'real' game, and only 10% of that 10% are truly 'amazing' at the game. That amounts to the top 1%. Games recently have been willing to let people who arent in that top 10% to feel like theyre good and feel better than they really are
1:21 what Lotus/car is that? Can someone tell me pls?
That feeling when you wake up only to find out that a dog is faster than you in forza.
The same arguments here apply to drifting in Horizon, which is my main interest. Go to the volcano drift zone and last time I checked the entire top 100 was hacked.
The first legitimate score was somewhere like 108th place or something. For those of us who spent months breaking into the world top 200-400 on driftzones it's frustrating to see a score that really should be somewhere in the top 100 barely make into the top 500 in the world. I just stopped bothering with driftzones after the reset of the leaderboards. It wiped all my scores and I could not be bothered re-running any of the driftzones only to barely reach 400th on a run that should've been a lot higher. I know these are good scores, nothing to be ashamed of, but when no-one trusts the scores anyway it's not exactly something you can brag about.
Also, the hacking problem goes deeper: there's no real way of knowing if _any_ of the scores are legit, because it's perfectly possible for people to hack a run and still come in with a score that looks impressive but achievable. The only difference
between them and the obvciously hacked scores is that they were cleverer about it, and didn't end up with a score that's fifteen times the mathematical maximum.
My solution for driftzones would at least be recorded ghost runs for the top 100 so we can actualy go and check. But really something drastic needs to change or else drift leaderboards in particular(because there's no ghost recording like Rivals) are going to be considered worthless in future releases.
What's up with his UI? What's that stuff in his speedometer and how do I enable it
I base my driving skill of my experience I’ve been playing forza since motorsport 3 I used to compete competitively in 3,4, and 5 and even did A, and B class tournaments in all games I’ve learned so much about how to properly tune and setup a car to do exactly what I want it to do and this shows when I play FH5 I win about 90% of all Viper events I’m usually 6-8 seconds ahead of second place and I can do this without cutting corners or clipping checkpoints the skill gap is very clear everytime I play online but I have noticed that the game it self rewards bad driving and that’s something I don’t like I’ve lost race to terrible drivers that slam into you so they can slow down and their rewarded for it I’ve had people in front of me literally ride the wall to take a turn instead of properly hitting the braking point and instead of the game slowing them down like you would in real life if you if a Barrier going 100+ mph but they just slide of the wall and get a huge advantage out of a corner stuff like that has to be changed there needs to be penalties for poor driving drivers shouldn’t get rewarded for stuff like that
Interesting discussion. And this doesn't even touch on the fact that fast rivals times do not necessarily equate to a fast race driver. Being able to set fast lap times is of course essential to a race driver, but there's more to it with other cars on the track.
One obstacle I do see for Horizon to try and encourage a more competitive area of the game is the disparity in certain cars and tunes. The PI system is interesting, but because it's a hard class cut off and the ways in which it can be gamed make it more of an advantage to those who know how to use it. Arguably that's part of the skill of the game, but it isn't part of pure driving skill. And finding good tunes from creators without going to external sites is an absolute mess.
Never understood why ranked mode was taken out. All we asked for was for ranked mode to be reworked in more of an competitive and skill stance from FH4 and they decided to scrap it. FH5 without ranked has no real purpose to grind. Finding communities to race competitively is the only way to keep it alive. Hopefully this new Motorsport doesn’t disappoint like FM7 did.
Yeah I thought I was an above average player until I played against the K12 guys in a public lobby. In A class they were managing 1:03.2 -1:03.9 times with the new Lotus Emira. At the same time the best I could manage in the most OP car I have (S209 STI) is a 1:04.4 in rivals after a hundred laps or so. The next best racer was managing 1:06 in that race. It’s crazy to see them out run my OP car by a second and a half while they blitz the rest of the lobby by 3 seconds or more a lap.
There is always someone better, even if they've never played. Also, people do use glitches and mods, including cars. Don't beat yourself up over not being the percieved best. Just have fun! The best players are good sports.
I know this is an older post, but, for me, Horizon is mostly just for driving around exploring, and experiencing different vehicles. Personally, I hate having to "win" to experience everything the game has to offer. It'd be cool, if we could sign in as "Explorers," "Racers," "Car Shower," "Cruiser," etc., and get gameplay tailored to each. That said, I'll still do what I have to so I can [then] do what I want to.
Ive recently gotten into more competitive racing. I never tuned and just compensated with driving and it was enough to beat my friends. But I've met a bloke who made me work way to hard to just keep a semblance of pace and i was genuinely excited for the first time in a long time to have a limit to break, and even this guy said I was forcing him to make mistakes because I was breathing down his neck 😂
also keep in mind with horizon, your FPS can have an effect on lap times as well.
At 1:35.. How did you get the telemetry inside and around the revcounter bottom right? It looks nice
For me the problem comes down to having the wrong build. I try to make well rounded builds so I can use them in any type of race, meaning more straights, more turns, circuit sprint or street. Obviously off road vs on road is different. But when playing against unbeatable drivatars or online it often comes down to my car just can't turn as well or doesn't have the same top speed and I just get left behind. Its not a fun way to lose and worse even the only way to "get better" in that aspect is quit out, fast travel to garage, and spend a bunch of time menuing. I don't enjoy all power builds that can't turn. I enjoy realistic builds. Mostly this just comes down to the PI scaling and I understand it is near impossible to balance 100s of cars with 1000s of combinations of parts each. Why not just scale off top speed and handling instead of an imaginary lap time though?