Former Christian musician turned skeptic discusses morality
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Jon Steingard, the former lead singer of the Christian rock group Hawk Nelson, says that he’s no longer a Christian. In this video, he and Frank discuss whether morality is objective or subjective. Check it out!
Watch the entire talk here: • ENCORE due to UA-cam ...
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#Skepticism #Apologetics #JonSteingard
Charles Spurgeon nailed it when he said that people’s objection to God’s existence is rooted in sin in their life.
From Romans 1! ☝🏻
EXACTLY, people do not want to be held accountable for their actions
@@darrellcollins877 If I would not like to be held accountable for my actions, I would be a Christian.
Why do you think I would reject God, if simply believing and accepting him gives me a free ticket out of it?
I can sin as much as I want and not rt punished, if I keep believing ...
And if you say "this is not how it works", it is what I used to believe ...
So it worked for me ...
Yet, I am an atheist now ...
Ergo, your "argument" makes no sense ...
Did you actually ever try to think about it?
@@BestAnimeFreak sir you are as confused as the dude in the video. As a born again Christian we are not free to sin as much as we like from that day forward. At the point of TRUE born again you begin a covenant with Christ, you Love Christ , he Loves you. In Loving him, you wish to please him, because you understand the horrible death he submitted himself to, for your very own salvation. This is very impactful onto ones soul and heart. We also know the Holy Spirit moes into us to help us change, to teach us, to guide us as we begin to walk in a new life, given to us by Christ. We are FREED from the burden of our past life/sins, and walk fresh each day without guilt. This in no way means we are free to sin as much as we want. The fact that you believe this, tells me you did not have a real experience with Christ. I do not say this to belittle you at all. I say this because I have seen in myself, and many others, the wonderful impact that Christ brings into someone's life that wants it. As you grow and are learn more and more about Christ, you no longer have the thoughts of sin, you become more and more free from your manly sinful nature. If someone experience with Christ has not been like this, then they most likely have been fooling themselves or someone else has fooled them and led them down the wrong path. The right path is in the Bible, start there, and re;visit Jeus the Savior, perhaps you will find a true experience and then Truly can learn what the Gospel of Jesus is.
@@darrellcollins877 That's nothing but a no true scotsman fallacy
It's not a big mystery . This is told to us in the parable of the sower. Basically, out of those whom are called, only 25% or one in four will grow with strong root to withstand the circumstances and buffering of life.
Great comment
Reality has a way of pushing against nonsensical mythology
@@mattslater2603 Yes, the nonsensical mythology that you’re obsessed with. If you don’t believe, why are you so obsessed?
@@BK-rl5lw If others don't believe, why do you want to push your believe down their throat?
Force them to follow your believe through laws?
Maybe that is why people push back against your bs?
Ever thought of that?
...
Of course ... I am not the first to tell you that ... and I will not be the last ...
But dishonesty seems to be a big thing that is needed in most of theism ^^
@@BestAnimeFreak Morality has always been legislated all throughout history. You, as an atheist, are also voting YOUR morality onto christians. Why do we have to abide by your laws? Maybe you should watch Frank Turek more and actually listen with your ears and *hopefully* rational mind.
Dude, I'm amazed I didn't remember who this guy was, I saw him in concert back when I listened to a lot of Christian music. Hawk Nelson was one of my favorite bands, can't believe he turned away. I mean, to be honest, looking back on it, he only had the occasional "Christian" song and i do kinda feel like he was just one of those singers that takes advantage of the "Christian" label for sales lol
Like a ton of bands at the time lol
@@sEEKllsevN Yep, I was really into the Christian rock scene, but looking back, i feel like maybe... 10% of them were genuine. lol
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 I didn't recognize him, I didn't mean i didn't REMEMBER who Hawk Nelson was lol. After I stopped listening to Hawk Nelson I had that feeling, before I knew he wasn't a Christian anymore.
@@haachamachama7 never got into the rock scene but in the metalcore side of things, oh my, so many bands used the Christian title just for sales
@@sEEKllsevN I was into the metalcore scene for awhile too. I remember when the As I Lay Dying lead singer got arrested and said he was never a Christian and he knew many other bands who were the same...
There are some many questions I have for Jon. 2 that really resonates with me are:
He is married, did his wife lose faith as well and if so, what was her reasoning? Did they come to the same reasoning? Did she challenge him on losing the faith?
Does he feel a sense of guilt or responsibility to those who found God through his music that may now feel a since of betrayal and question his authenticity? What would he say to these people?
No. He's likely in a church that is light on sin, he hung around a lot of gay people, and is now afraid to admit the truth. Gospel light churches, focused on nothing but feelings and "praise" music lead to this kind of church that is no more holy than the corner bar.
He'll come out in the coming year or his friends will tell on him anyway. He's afraid he'll destroy his young boys life. And he will.
This morality question is the one question I have never heard atheism deal with...
Is there a knowable objective morality?
If not then Christians are claiming their subjective morality is superior but they believe it is objective. Pretty arrogant eh?
@@170221dn Do you not know that it is objectively immoral to rape a 6 month old baby?
The morality question is but one of many, I have never heard a theist deal with.
In Judaism they believe the higher percentage of rabbis believing one thing. “Mark 7:8 you have let go of the commands of god and are holding on to human traditions”
You are following people not god
That also speaks about the weightier things of the law: justice, judgement, and mercy - all if which this man is defining for himself instead of following the Lord's definitions. The concordance and related lexicon on those words are VERY enlightening!
In Christ,
Andrew
I don’t think the atheist should concede that if god exists, morality is objective. That’s not necessarily true. Indeed there is no non-circular argument for objective morality with Christianity or any monotheism.
The only way morality could be objective is if we define it as such. For example if we define it as the minimisation of suffering +/- the maximisation of pleasure.
Morality is by definition always subjective, with or without the gods.
Some Disciples and an Apostle denied Jesus. That a "Christian musician" did the same should invoke a yawn.
The reason Harris can presuppose well-being as a moral standard is because that is what life strives to do. To stay alive therefore, we can derive that sense morality doesn’t hinder life but helps preserve it, morality operates under well-being.
I don't want to die, but I'll die anyway 😂
AMEN brother Frank Turek and Cross Examined ministry TRUTH HURTS IT'S NOT ALWAYS PLEASANT BUT NECESSARY. I really appreciate these videos since they always do good work in their efforts in the furtherance of The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ you're reaching thousands to millions of people who are seeking after The Truth of God's Existence, Word and Character in our reality 🙏❤️👊. This has nothing and everything to do with the video but please listen if you want to otherwise leave it alone and ignore it. Hello my name is Justin and I'm a fellow Christian and Apologist but I'm also a college student. I'm not a closed minded Theist as I have nothing against Atheists or unbelievers as I speak to them often to understand their reasons for unbelief but we as Christians are convinced of God's Existence due to many real factors). I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to become Christians as that's The Holy Spirit's job to help people believe but only explain why I believe in Jesus Christ. There's actually evidence of God's Existence in Christianity. First of all there's proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed in history since the writings of Tacitus, Josephus Flavius, Pliny the younger and other historical documents prove that He was living two thousand years ago that even scholars both religious and Atheists agree with historically speaking but not that He's The Divine Son of God because obviously they don't.
I'm going to give you historical and archeological evidence for God's Existence as The Scriptures have prophecies that predate the events recorded in them by several millennia including Matthew, Hosea and Zechariah which prophesy accurately of the people of Israel becoming a nation again after over 1900 years of being scattered around the nations since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. spoken of by Christ in Matthew 23:29-24:3 and returning to their homeland after The Holocaust with Jerusalem as their capital in 1948 exactly as Jesus The Christ said. The prophets including Daniel spoke of the time where several world empires would arise and fall including the Babylonian kingdom, Medes and Persians, Roman Empire, and Saladin and the Muslims which went in consecutive order for the past few millennia. The people of Israel becoming a nation after The Holocaust in 1948 (ironically the melting point of gold as God compares Israel to gold that's tested in fire in Zechariah 13:8 and Jeremiah 16:15) exactly how Jesus The Christ said would happen since God us everything to come in The Scriptures and not just because people were working towards as Atheists claim which are impossible for any regular man to predict.
Just before anyone says Christianity is a white man's religion made to oppress blacks during slavery you obviously aren't aware that the first Christians were Jews in The Middle East and that Christianity just like any religion can be used by evil and corrupt people to oppress others but you forget that the first Abolitionists/Civil Rights activists were Christians who sought to abolish slavery, racism, segregation, injustice and prejudice throughout American history. Jesus The Christ loves you enough not to give you what we all deserve which is God's Wrath by His Own Blood. Charles Darwin didn't originally come up with The Theory of Evolution over 200 years ago as it is mentioned in the writings of Ancient Greeks who believed in Demons that gave knowledge to philosophers.
Evolution makes no sense when nothing has evolved after thousands of years of human history and supposedly the first creature came from primordial sludge several millions of years
ago funny how they won't believe that God an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being created us from the Earth) which came from a supermassive expansion of matter at high temperature that inexplicably created everything in the known universe that supposedly came from nothing billions of years ago. How did the organs evolve before there were bones, skin, substance and how did any creatures see before eyes evolved? I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The and I'm convinced of speciation and adaptation which is micro Evolution but not macro Evolution because there's no evidence of it nor clear observable examples of it where living creatures evolve into other kinds of species plus the fact that fossils don't show evidence of evolution and genetic entropy rules out evolution. The question begs how did two genders evolve from a common ancestor with a perfectly hospitable and sustainable environment with breathable oxygen and resources to survive on inexplicably? Atheists have the burden of proof to explain how everything came to be and why our existence is possible without the Existence of God from an godless perspective just as Christians have to provide evidence of God's Existence and the validity of His Word.
Evolution requires life to already exist in order to take any effect in living organisms so it doesn't account for the existence of Life and reality. Also evolution is impossible because it goes against The Law of entropy and the second Law of thermodynamics because evolution makes things better whereas nothing continues to get better but decays and turns to absolute destruction in the end. Mark Ridley an Evolutionist said "No evolutionist whether gradualist or punctuationist uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of The Theory of Darwinian Evolution as opposed to special Creation". God's Existence is made perfectly known and observable in the universe as demonstrated in His Handiwork in the intelligently designed manner that Creation was made, human consciences and consciousness historical and archaeological evidence of God's Word being valid history, fulfillment of Bible Prophecies God in His Holiness and Righteousness could give us what we deserve in Hell for our since but He's merciful to give us free will to choose to accept or reject His gift of salvation by grace through faith in His Son Jesus. I don't mean this is any condescending manner but if you'd like to discuss The Scriptures with me or have me listen to your view on anything my instagram account is Savage Christian Kombatant.
you say something is true yet you copy and paste the exact same evidence lacking nonsense argument each time. Thus showing your views are not true. Kind of ironic.
Christian nutter caps...
Hey I danced with the devil 30 yrs , at 40 yrs old I met an angel spoke to me and my wife , he knew all about us then he vanished, then met the devil for 6 months he a beast , In all he left in one prayer, today Jesus is 100 pct real
Stop using drugs.
@@Mavors1099 u need to go to the sinners channel I am sure ur on the wrong one here try Pluto ur alien friends might want to buzz with u
@@antoniofiammelli1792 .
Again, stop using drugs.
@@Mavors1099 u need to check ur conscious if u have one
@@antoniofiammelli1792
And you need to stop using drugs.
You can not be a "CHRISTIAN" and lose your faith, and this is why? To be a "CHRISTIAN" is walking in the anointing of Jesus because the Holy Ghost is the One Who is leading, guiding, and holding your life so you’re no longer your own. To be a born again believer is one thing and to be a "CHRISTIAN" IS ANOTHER. To be born into something that you believed but you were never developed into it, it is easier to give it up…
The guy of the video once firmly believed the BS that you're describing.
What is the purpose of that hair? I really wonder what prompted him to make his hair look like it is on fire. Was there much effort, did he think out the pros and cons, did it ever occur to him that no one could ever take him seriously again? Does he not have loved ones that tried to dissuade him from making a spectacle of himself?
He's a musician and songwriter- a formerly Christian one, who last year tweeted out that he had decided he didnt want to be a Christian- that he didnt believe - and wouldnt be working in the Christian music industry anymore. I believe he's VERY "Progressive", to say the least.
@@taramckinley7585 What do you mean by "progressive"... to say the least"?
@@mattslater2603 I mean that if I remember correctly, he gradually became part of a Progressive "Christian" Church, which is fundamentally different in it's ideology than traditional Christian orthodoxy- they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, that your participation in Social Justice and other current critical theory ( like "Progressive" political views ) is more important than the tenets of Christianity, and that love and some vague "spirituality" is paramount- it's really just a different religion, they shouldnt call themselves Christian if they dont believe Jesus is God- it doesnt make any sense. I wasn't insulting this gentleman's looks, I'm "progressive" -looking myself, I live in a very lefty city with alot of people that look (like me) and think like him, I just disagree with him on his reasons for "deconverting", I think it's really sad and it's happening far too often. Christian kids arent sometimes taught why they should believe what they do- historically and theologically, so they become atheists later in life when they question themselves and have no answers internally. As a Church, we need to do better at home .
@@taramckinley7585 I think Christianity is based off of some really weak and sketchy claims, initially
It has been doctored since the very beginning of the orthodox church... so it's no wonder to me that people begin to reject this man tainted doctrine for other man tainted doctrines.
None can show they are actually the word of God...
So what's the difference?
Seems more like sour grapes over branding rights
Finally, someone who has thought about this, has intelligent things to say about the subject, realizes that this is not a black and white issue and he is talking with Frank. Less and less people are believing what Frank is selling.
wym this guy got absolutely wrecked. he changed his position agreed with frank a few times
you think this cat is intelligent ? say it aint so
@@darrellcollins877 Do you think you're the arbiter of who is and is not intelligent?
Say it ain't so!
Such arrogance
John is not being fully honest.
He has a narcissistic spirit.
Look at me.
Come struggle with me in my doubts and unbelief.
Perhaps I can pull you into doubt with me in my Python like slippery-slope, wishy-washy words and ways of thinking.
Once I have a good hold, you will eventually not be able to breathe.
What this man needs is love and prayer. As a Christian who has experienced the great highs and devastating lows of the Christian walk my heart lovingly goes out to him. If the Bible and Christianity were easy then why did John the Baptist question if Christ was the Messiah? Jesus asked for the cup to be taken from Him which to me shows the reality of the struggle against sin. Just because someone is questioning their faith does not mean there are nefarious or simple sin based reasons. Maybe they actually are being battered in the war we find ourselves in. I once worked with a young lady who turned from Christianity in large part because of the wickedness of the Roman Catholic influence in the Philippines. She was genuinely hurt. Don't bring out the sledgehammer when sometimes all is needed is some spiritual WD 40 and patience. As the Bible states the stronger brother is to support the weaker and really be thankful he (the stronger) has not been overtaken.
1 Corinthians 13:13 "But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
Hey John I love you.
What a beautiful comment !
Yet what do we see over and over again from Christians?
"Oh... he was never a real Christian anyways..."
This is Christianity in practice?
How embarrassing
Amen brother 🙏💝 It is hard for all of us..
But this man no longer claims the love due to a brother because by his own admission, he has fallen to neighbor status. Given that, and his time spent around (not in) the church, he needs a swift kick in the pants from sATAN and hIS cronies to wake up and come to Jesus like he pretended to before!
He knows the Gospel, but is rejecting it along with Jesus. Not good!
In Christ,
Andrew
@@Ezekiel336-16 I got the impression that Matthew was speaking more to *our* duty as children- light and salt of the earth- of God. What the enemy does has nothing to do with what we’re called to and that is to love and pray🙏🏼😊
"at the moment." & "I feel like.." sums up this man's view.
It pretty much sums up everybody's view. Even though some people wouldn't admit it.
He's honest about changing his views about a complicated subject as he thinks about them? Is that a problem?
@@incredulouspasta3304 no, not at all. This goes to one's view of life I suppose. Do you believe that the truth is knowable and, at some point in your growth, you can reasonably come to a conclusion regarding the big things of life and live believing those things? Or, is it better to live believing, at any given moment, you might experience an epiphany that would change your entire view of life / its meaning?
@@Mavors1099 so, would you say that, regarding the most important aspects of life, we can never really know what the truth is?
@@The-F.R.E.E.-J.
I say that you can change your mind if you get new evidence and information.
When Frank said ‘whadya mean by that’ in the back of his mind you know a tiny Frank was saying ‘see students, just ask the question, it works!’
I’m so glad someone else was thinking this 😄
I noticed this too. My thoughts went straight to Greg Koukle
@@weallneedsaving9382 did you see his little smirk too?? 😂
Bottom line: all this discussion cannot stop death. Nitpicking. Morals. The Law given by God cannot be attained or sustained. Jesus came to give grace and hope simply by believing in him, the Creator can we be saved. The wages of sin is death. You can’t save yourself… we are all going to die. But there is hope…
Who gave us the ability to think? Primordial goo? No. We are formed with the ability to think. Created in his image. Thank you Jesus.
All religions have some of the same characteristics but Christianity is the only worldview that fits the craziness we see know. Bad things happening to good people. Evil. Pride, Arrogance. Moral decay. Right being considered wrong and wrong is right.
Jesus is the only Savior who reached down to humanity to rescue us from ourselves. All other religions have man trying to reach up to God.
Jesus tells us to delve into the Word with our mind and souls to understand Truth.
Very well stated, I would only change that Christianity _explains_ rather than "fits" the current situation (maybe just semantics?) and, to be accurate, mainstream Christianity does reach up to God. That's why we are foursquare against it here. Jesus is our servant Savior who now makes us children, not servants, through faith in HIS complete, and singular, work on our behalf.
Christianity doesn’t explain evil. This may well be its biggest problem
All objections to God’s redemptive story can be taken up with him on judgement day. Tell him that you don’t care for the way he’s running the universe.
Evil is in the hearts of man living in a sinful and broken world. All sin begins in the mind.
@Lucas seattle You condemn someone for preaching? really? You make the declarative statement that Hiroshima & Nagasaki were intrinsically evil when everyone knows those actions saved, LITERALLY, millions of lives including women & children. Then you make the bold face lying statement that atheists, or atheistic ideology, promotes the flourishing of all life. Need I remind you of the 20th century? Religion is religion, you don't need God to slaughter millions of people, but without Him, it sure is a lot easier - if the numbers are any indicator.
@Lucas seattle you're very slippery & clever, the way you assign emotions to other people while accusing them of things & making statements of "fact" and then deny doing any of it. That's very Democratic of you. For instance, you just said that moral laws developed without any influence of the supernatural. Okay, go ahead, tell me you didn't just say that. Anyway, dishonesty renders all conversation worthless so, perhaps someday you will come to engage people honestly but, until then, have a good one.
You can say it’s objectively true that a group of people have a shared, subjective truth, but just because they share it doesn’t make it objectively true
Correct.
Appealing to an invisible celestial authority as a moral foundation doesn't make it objectively true either.
The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Praise be to God🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
“Former Christian “ ?
How about former pretender. Cats out of the bag.
What makes one a definite Christian?
@@jameybobamey7343 Jesus told us in the Bible already. Maybe you can look it up?
@@jameybobamey7343 By accepting through faith that Jesus is the true and only way and by living one's life as Jesus told us to!
@@jameybobamey7343 Sorry, I thought your PO was about how to tell if someone is a Christian? The Bible says that our body is God's temple. It is our duty to reflect his Glory.
@@yiqingwang1437 sorry got confused between posts and thought your reply was on a different thread! Haha
When I was an atheist, I agreed with the idea of well being being to standard. However one of my many flaws in this thinking was my idea of this was different to everyone else's. I found I was applying an across the board standard to my own and everyone else's actions which led to baseless judgement.
Even everyday things such as parenting, marriage and positive behaviour and my understandings of these things were only the result of my environment and the impact of others throughout my life.
Facing this with honestly led me to a very dark place, ultimately without objective truth then everything is subjectively true. I had no argument against evil beyond a difference of opinion, as without an objective moral standard that is outside of my experience then I cannot define what evil is and I don't have a right to. My personal view of evil may be another's good.
So in my desperation I turned to Jesus, because I remembered a friend who read and applied to Bible to his life, he was living a consistently peaceful, joyous and abundant life, I wanted that too. In the days following my repentance and faith in Jesus I experienced changes in my self that I couldn't explain. I came to believe in the Bible as the truth and Jesus as saviour per the gospel. When I look back I now see a completely different person before I came to Jesus.
Where at one time I was just trying my best with the things in my life, now I allow for the Bible to speak to tell me how to love and live. One of the many reasons why I believe this to be the truth is because just by living it I've gotten all sorts of insults and hatred for believing, however when they're asked what reason they have, not one person brings anything of substance and their disapproval is just baseless dislike, most of the time due to negative bias
Praise God. Stay close to Jesus
@@repentandfollowjesus3474 I will. Thank you 👍😊
Doesn't sound like you were an atheist.
Bible has such a low standard, I'm sure you have room to improve
@@logicalatheist1065 why doesn't it sounds like I was an atheist? Also what do you mean by the Bible having a low standard?
@@Given_Grace Bible gives you instructions on what to do with slaves, that rules the Bible out as a source of morality.
What convinced you of a god existing? What evidence was presented to you?
Here's the deal. His faith was built on other mans faith and not the voice of Christ.
For once you feel the power of his thoughts all man belief is as of NOTHING! Jesus even stated if they are not of my voice they were never with my voice.
We agree with you so, since Christ did not come to give us a new form of religion but HIMSELF, doesn't that prove that ALL religion is not of God?
Every faith is built on other man's faith. Your faith is built on the faith of those men who wrote the Bible and on the faith of those men who labeled the Bible as "word of God".
@@Mavors1099 We don't read the Bible and then go "Oh, that makes sense" and become a Christian. You may not believe it, but true Christians come to faith with a PERSONAL experience with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Faith based on someone else's, whether it be your parents' or the writers of the Bible's, is flimsy and disingenuine. I would go as far as to say until one develops their own faith, independent from anyone else's, they are not a Christian.
Exactly 💯. I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Christian when it's their choice to understand if they actually believe what they believe and if it's true or not. ATHEISM AIN'T GOT NOTHING NEW OR BETTER TO OFFER THAN THE VERY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THEY'RE CRITICAL OF SO IT'S HYPOCRISY AT IT'S FINEST 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
@@Mavors1099 And before you call me judgemental or something, I'm basing this on my own personal faith. I was raised a Christian, grew up going to church. Wouldn't say I was ever a Christian until I left the faith and found Jesus for myself at the age of 14.
When he says “Philosophically True”, what he really means is there are thinks that are objectively true and things that are “Logically Consistent”.
@@maryg.2020 Well it’s the difference between something consistent in theory, verses practical with the way the world actually works. For example, most belief systems have their own consistent logic for why they believe what they believe, but no matter how consistent they are, a belief with the wrong base presupposition will consistently end in the wrong place. This in my opinion is why knowing what’s true can be so difficult to discover.
@@maryg.2020 I think so, the book of James says the tongue is like a rudder on a ship. A little turn can send it totally off course down the road. Base presuppositions and logic have the potential to be the same way.
Why was a musician considered a leader?
That always confused me too, considering the general attitudes and personalities of so many "Christian" musicians. They didn't seem to reflect the love of God so much as they did their embrace of the world - and it's conventions regarding music.
Most churches have a worship leader. They are musicians and yet have the word leader in their title. Why do you think that is?
@@The-F.R.E.E.-J. Exactly they're responsible for their band not a congregation
If two atheists disagree on what’s moral and immoral, since not all atheists have the same morals and values and ideology, how do they decide or determine who is right and who is wrong, without a higher moral standard to defend their beliefs? Wouldn’t they just be difference of opinions then? How is one persons opinion above another persons opinion?
Use murder for example? Some people believe murder is justified thru vigilante justice because they don’t trust the justice system or death penalty and some believe it’s not justifiable at all. So without God and his higher moral standards, how do people determine what’s right and wrong to force upon people?
It’s weird how people think God is immoral for ending the lives of people in the OT for his specific reasons, but when governments or citizens decide to end the lives of people today it’s justifiable and ok in their minds.
So true, so true. They would probably have to take lots of time to decide by voting themselves together as atheists because they need a statistic to prove their lifestyle as a “collective whole” apparently.
"It’s weird how people think God is immoral for ending the lives of people in the OT for his specific reasons, but when governments or citizens decide to end the lives of people today it’s justifiable and ok in their minds." Maybe they both have it wrong, and there's some sort of in-between. Find "CS LEWIS - The most beloved heretic" The writer is an atheist, but he gives a good idea of how Lewis actually saw things, as opposed to what is generally believed about him.
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became 👉vain in their imaginations👈, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1:21-22
“3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to 👉their own desires, because they have itching ears👈, 👉they will heap up for themselves teachers👈; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be 👉turned aside to fables👈.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4
The definition of science is KNOWLEDGE.
1 Timothy 6:20 “avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of 👉science falsely so called👈”
Colossians 2:8
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through 👉philosophy and empty deceit👈, according to the 👉tradition of men👈, according to the 👉basic principles of the world👈, and not according to Christ.”
Proverbs 16:25 states, "There is a way which 👉seems👈 right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
@@godloves9163 Do you think CS Lewis "knew God?" I never understood where the line between knowing and not knowing is drawn. Universalism seems to take care of all that, to where perhaps it doesn't really matter in this life.
That is a very good question and I guess when it comes to "M" word, we have to look at the facts on whether it's justified or not.
The definition of "M" word is; "unlawful premeditated killing of another human by another."
Example: could we say the USA committed "M" when they bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed thousands of innocent people?🤷♂️
Yes, people disagree on things. Morals being one of the biggies.
What happens if there are two theists of different faiths arguing over what is moral and not moral?
What do you do when both sides claim their morals are brought forward by a god?
IMO, without the belief in a god, we can at least get rid of the finger pointing ☝️, when trying to come to an agreement on moral issues.
He is never a Christian. Hope he can seek God sincerely
Is that objective?
They went out from us, but they were not of us.
Hawk Nelson was my favorite band until this guy took over singing for them. Sorry but Jason had the voice.
So basically he is saying that morality is only objective if a vast majority of people agree on it…which would make it subjective. That’s just bad reasoning.
Exactly
In nazi germany, everyone agreed that jews should be gassed and killed, does that make it morally correct? Of course not!
We see wrongs in the world and are compelled to do right. Because we have an innate understanding of right and wrong, even scientists are seeing this in babies. We are most definitely without excuse. Created universe defined by laws and a moral law written on each human heart.
@John Bugno "We see wrongs in the world and are compelled to do right. Because we have an innate understanding of right and wrong". That's clearly not true. If we all hade an innate sense of right and wrong then why do wars and fights happen? Do you really think during WW2 the allied forces KNEW they were fighting for good and the Axis powers KNEW they were fighting for evil? Of course not. As the old saying goes we are all the heroes of our own stories. "Created universe defined by laws and a moral law written on each human heart." You have done utterly nothing to show morality to be universal or the universe to be designed.
What baby studies show an innate sense of right and wrong?
You're not going to support this claim... are you?
@@mattslater2603 I can find what he’s referencing, but it’s not what he says it is.
@@Bomtombadi1 Why am I not surprised he's twisting the facts, Mike?
Why?????
Former Christian does not even make sense. You can only BE A FORMER CHRISTIAN if you were operating in a religious spirit. Once you have received the Holy Spirit and been born again, which is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the face of this earth that could tear you away. NOTHING PERIOD. You are a New Creation. 🙌
Exactly 💯. I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Christian when it's their choice to understand if they actually believe what they believe and if it's true or not. ATHEISM AIN'T GOT NOTHING NEW OR BETTER TO OFFER THAN THE VERY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THEY'RE CRITICAL OF SO IT'S HYPOCRISY AT IT'S FINEST 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
"There is nothing that can tear you away"
Reality can.
A brain concussion can bring you to believe a spirit hit you and make you a "true Christian" and a brain concussion can make you lose that tingly feeling and make you lose your faith ...
This howl no true scotsmen bs is ... well, bs ...
Because according to your own bs, not even you are a true Christian ...
No true Christian exist on this planet ...
Ergo Christianity is wrong and just believed by delusional people?
Sounds fine to me, will never accepted by you ...
As usual with reality ^^
He brings up humans valuing their survival but humans regularly lay their life down for others. This destroys the subjective argument.
No you have to dig in a find this guy has a past offense this is all stemmed in pride!
Let’s remember pride comes before the fall! This guy allowed pride to skip in somehow somewhere. You need to find out what happened.
I mean was he in the Hollywood circles tired of being lambasted by pseudo intellectuals and his feeling were hurt and his faith weakened by it and he knee jerk reacted to being rejected by the world he was in??
Whatever it is he was hurt and his prideful reaction was walking away!
It mentions in his biography after speaking with his friends about his doubts! There some influence or something going on because brilliant men and apologist address all the area of doubts the. Has this guy never experiences the Holy Spirit? This is a strong possibility there’s no doubting once being filled with the spirit and God speaking to you confirming through supernatural experiences. But experience should not override biblical authority!
However his pride slipped in somewhere there was a foothold of the enemy! He allowed pride to take over!
No, you have it wrong, right off the bat.
It's the survival of our clade, group or species that compels the individual to lay down his life for other.
This doesn't push against the subjective argument in any way.
You're dead wrong here
@@mattslater2603 bruh people do it for total strangers of other clans that’s not a good argument
@@terryfonz4603 Bruh... do you not know what SPECIES means?
Are people from other groups not of the same SPECIES, to you?
@@mattslater2603 clad group or species! But that’s a bad argument also because people give their life for individuals who have no ability to further the SPECIES! Like elderly people etc! Nope it’s a different motivation than that nice try though.
@@terryfonz4603 Nope, wrong again.
People don't give their life for the elderly simply because they think the elderly can breed and create more humans. Lol.
They do it because they believe that valuing the lives of others over your own increases the survivability of the entire clan, group... species.
You've missed it, again.
Nice try, tho.
Is this the full video? If not, please let me know where to see the full video. Thank you!
He has the link for the entire video in the description
Always check the descriptions below videos. Usually, sources are there.
Go to a quite place with the word of God. Stay there til you get your answers. This seems so intelligent. When your ways are comparing to God's word. you can say is yourways are not God's ways, nor is God's way your way. You are not having a relationship with God you had a relationship with sinful man weather its in the church or not. Get your eyes off self. Because you're trying to figure out God .there is no one who can reason like God. Go back to your roots its a trap of Satan.
Pray for this man.
Useless
Morality is not democratic - i.e. if 51% vote to allow murder it doesn't make murder "right" - without God's Truth we, as humans, can never know Truth - all we can know on our own is purely subjective.
Which god? The god of the Bible who murdered every inhabitant of the planet?
WHICH "GOD" ??? 🙄🤔
The one YOU *subjectively* hold is the "correct" objective moral standard, no doubt 😜
This guy says that he is an ex-Christian. But the thing is, there is no such thing as an ex-Christian.
Why do you say this? Can't a Christian decide to walk away from what he believed? Does that imply he never really believed? How did you come to this conclusion?
Thank you!! I would expect better from this channel. False convert more like it.
Calvinism
Right, that would entail that there are Christians. But that's impossible, because the bible contradicts itself so much that it's impossible to believe. Also, no one is that dumb to believe the utterly ridiculous stories in the bible.
@@LMPM0909 Better like what? Harry Potter??
If this young guy with the weird haircut was supposed to convince me of the rightness of his position, he did a very lousy job with his repeated word salad responses. He never did show, for example, how torturing babies for fun is wrong according to the atheistic worldview.
Isn't it wrong?
For a bible believing Christian to accuse someone else of word salad is highly amusing
No. We need a moral standard. That’s it.
Granted! Here's a moral standard: whatever Satan says, goes. Problem?
@William James Sidis you do realize that your argument strongly insists that an objective standard must exist right? haha.
@William James Sidis if it is truly objective why do you then assume so much subjectivity from me? why do you assume my biases favor the objective truth?
hahaha. it amazes me how you good you subvert your own arguments. hahahaha
I think that Jon is not open to being wrong, he always looks at a way out of every corner he is put on with "maybe" it means something else.
What I see is a very lost man trying to justify walking away from God to live however he wants without eternal consequences. It's heartbreaking.
he is very confused getting hung up on trying to get the mortal mind to justify something. WHen we accept Gods Truth in our hearts and our Spirits, then the mind changes with us.
@@darrellcollins877 amen, brother 🙌
That makes no sense at all.
Either he actually believes in God and there are eternal consequences he can't avoid
Or he doesn't... in which case there is nothing to justify or avoid.
You'll see whatever you want when you are blind to reality.
You cannot lose your salvation.
You need to have had salvation to begin with.
You can live your life growing up in the church, but never truly accepting Christ.
I think most people that say they "lost their faith", just need to experience what life is like without that faith to see what they have been missing.
Agreed. There's a difference between calling yourself a Christian and being one.
Christianity calls for one to "believe the Bible and walking by faith" vs knowing the actual text and having understanding. The Bible doesn't require blind faith yet religion demands it.
Thank God for the Holy Spirit.
I woud kindly disagree about reuirement of blind faith. Faith is the Foundation of a relationship with Christ is it not ? Faith is where it begins, then as we grow in knowledge and experience our Faith blossoms and grows, and as I see it , required.
Is it me? Just the haircuts alone of younger, celebrity born again Christians is a gigantic distraction to our message. How silly does that look!
yeah it speaks volumes about this guys mindset and priorities in life. It says he was a Christian leader, anyone would be a fool to follow this guy anywhere for any reason. He is not a leader, heck he isnt even a follower, he is so confused he could not even follow simple direction. But with Christ there is always hope and I hope he gets its figured out, the right way, for his sake.
A true believer may stray away for a time....
but they will come back
No true scotsman fallacy...
Says who?
@@mattslater2603 ???😶???
@@thehelpdesk4051 You don't know what a no true scotsman fallacy is?
@@mattslater2603 no...never heard of it...guess I'm kinda dumb that way
Former Christian musician comes out as homosexual.
This man needs prayer for sure. It's easy to see he's not at peace. He's confused- he wasn't ever truly saved and born again. God Bless Frank for having grace and compassion for this lost soul. I pray he has a real conversion.
Buddy isn’t a very good atheist
Devin Patrick Kelley was for sure though...
He is still new at it. I'm sure he will learn more now that he is actually searching for the truth, instead of blindly believing he already has it.
@@somerandom3247 oh alright
I feel for Jonathan. He is trying to reach the objectivity of morality based on the practical overlapping feelings of universal human beings. But feelings are already subjective. So the resulted morality is nothing but subjective. A subjective morality has no binding powers and ultimately will not have any appeals.
Appealing to God's mind does nothing to solve this.
Just moving the goalposts.
@@mattslater2603 You don't need to go to the place of appealing to God's mind. It's not a moving goalpost, it's a choice, but be consistent with your choice. You can surely live under the conviction of subjectivity of morality. Just don't try to enforce your subjective morality on the other people. Being an ex-atheist, I have no problem with people living under the conviction of subjective morals. I only have problems with those who try to enforce their subjective moral standards on the other people. It's hypocritic and irrational.
@@typicalKAMBlover21 No... even if you're making the choice to what God decides is right or wrong... that's STILL subjective.
All you've done here is say "well other people shouldn't try to tell others what THEY think is right and have them follow it... only GOD can do that"
Which is special pleading/moving the goalposts
You still have the exact same problem
@@mattslater2603 You are right, even if the whole human race makes a choice to what God decides is right or wrong, it's still subjective. I came from a country (not US) where everyone thought that government mandated killing babies for economic prosperity is right. We called it scientific social engineering. But it's STILL subjective, it can STILL be objectively wrong. My arguments stop there. You are assuming that I'm trying to go further into proving God's existence objectively, which I never claimed. I'm merely saying enforcing others with universal moral standards is only rational IF a universal, objective moral law giver (call it God or YHWH or Mother Teresa, whatever you like) exists. It's a big IF there, and I specifically emphasized that human has the free will to choose either side of this IF, but you can't choose both. The strawman goalpost only existed in your mind, not mine. You still haven't stated what that "exact same problem" is btw. No one here can read your mind, so you'll have to define it.
@@typicalKAMBlover21 Ehhh in your op you say that Jon is trying to reach objective morality... as if that's been shown to be a thing to reach for
That's what needs to be shown to exist... not God.
I disagree that enforcing a universal standard of morality is only rational if a universal law giver exists.
That universal law giver is still subject to their own thoughts and opinions.
This is the shifting of the goalposts I was referring to.
You've just moved it from human mind to a "Gods" mind... or mother Theresa... or whatever you like.
Either way, you're leaving it up to an agent to decide what is right or wrong.
Which is the exact same issue with human subjective morality
I don't question the existence of God, I question the wrath God has for my existence. Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus) of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem is my only hope; remember us our Lord.
I can't see any value in the Moral Argument even though I'm a Christian. I have to put myself in the shoes of the atheist and to them the subject of morality is based entirely on pleasure and pain, survival and death, prosperity and poverty. The morals of the day have to be based on what is most pleasurable for the most people, what is least painful for the most people, what enables most people to survive, what avoids death for most people, what brings prosperity to most people and what avoids poverty for most people. Therefore the concept of 'objective' morality doesn't exist and God or gods are not needed to achieve those aims.
Thanks for being honest. A rarity on CE
I’m a Christian as well and want to ask this.. do you think there can be ANY morals that can be objective? Like for example “ Rape is immorall “. Can that be objective?
@@jonathanbenitez8225 If God commanded you to rape... would it still be immoral?
@@jonathanbenitez8225 Rape is immoral because it harms the victim and causes pain, injury and embarrassment. And we need to ask what we mean by 'objective' because its meaning is actually subjective. A Christian can't apply the word to an atheist because the atheist understands it to mean there are morals outside him/her self, ie the general populous; whereas we apply it to God.
So in America we have 350 million people approx 12 percent of them had slavery in their ancestry. America is a very prosperous nation and since slavery was only 12 percent of population, Is slavery a good thing? I hope not. Most people benefitted from slavery. The north was able to industrialize due to ability not to be shepherds aka wool production. The south was able to maximize it economy through cotton.
I'm proud of Jon. He is so eloquent and gentle when voicing his objections to Christianity.
God gave atheist over to a reprobate mind… end of story. No debate no discussion is necessary. That is foolishness. Romans 1:28
What was the point of this? It was mostly him repeating the same nonsense the whole time.
That's the point of all Frank's videos. Just Frank repeating the same nonsense over and over again.
It's sad to see Christian musicians lose their faith, Kevin Max of DC talk is also losing his faith. Objective morality exists, when we act a certain way, we are sure that specific results we'll follow as a result of behaving in a particular manner. If the desired result is opposite to that which you aim to achieve, then you know that you took the wrong path. However, right and wrong is not merely limited to outcomes we desire.
Well you'll have to demonstrate that objective morality exists apart from thinking agents.
there is no real Morality if one does not agree Morality comes from God. If it not based on God , then it becomes based on each individuals opinion, then there is no uniform code of Morality and society falls apart, which is what we are witnesses here in the USA and World Wide even.
@@darrellcollins877 Are you trying to prove subjective morality? Because you're off to a good start.
Adding in another subject in the form of God doesn't change anything.
@@mattslater2603 not trying to prove anything. The laws of Morality come from God, as he is the Creator of all things Good. Many civilisations and religions can claim that their morals were first, or the only ones or whatever. With the knowledge that God created man, and gave him morals to live by, it is plain to me any form of morals in any society are based on Gods laws, even if they say it is not. Un;godly people will have some morals of good. But will modify their own personal morals to fit their own needs. Gods morals do not change and he expects us to lift ourselves up to his high moral standards. If Morals came from mankind, well they would not even exist because man is corrupt at heart when left to his own means.
@@darrellcollins877 That's nothing but begging the question again.
If you can't prove it, then you're giving me nothing but your subjective opinion on the matter.
"The laws of morality come from God"
Argument from assertion fallacy....
Prove it.
This guy sounds so confused. He needs to do a lot of thinking honestly. 😂😂
Yes, Turek is a mess.
The choice is obvious you can believe whatever you want but if it draws you away from Christ you have a big problem.
Not really
Direct and accurate.
Freewill, from the very beginning, and that sums up the direction man took.
Exactly 💯. I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Christian when it's their choice to understand if they actually believe what they believe and if it's true or not. ATHEISM AIN'T GOT NOTHING NEW OR BETTER TO OFFER THAN THE VERY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THEY'RE CRITICAL OF SO IT'S HYPOCRISY AT IT'S FINEST 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
That is nonsense.
"Believe what you want.... but you better believe THIS or else!"
First of all there's no such thing as former Christian let's get that straight if you were never in the faith and you were never you never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you never were a Christian the Bible says they went out from us because they never belonged to us""""" when you are a born again believer you're a true Born Again believer you get converted by God God does the conversion and you never stop trusting Christ when you have a relationship with him you may have your doubts but you always trust him
No true Scottman.
Always leave it to a christian like Jesus Christ destroys Marxism to contradict the bible.
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. (2 Peter 2:20-21)
If it's not possible to have a person relationship with Jesus and then leave the faith, then it's not possible to know Christ and leave the faith. If it's not possible to know Christ and then leave the faith, then 2 Peter 2:20-21 is wrong, since it assumes that it is possible for one to know Christ and then fall away from the faith.
“They went out from us, for they were not of us, for if they had been of us , they would have no doubt continued with us, but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” -verse written by the apostle John
Of all the weak arguments for the existence of god, the moral argument is by far the weakest. Turek just speaks absolute unadulterated nonsense on this subject.
Keep searching, God bless ✝️❤️🙏🏽
Well religion isn't even about morals and ethics. It has teachings for moral and ethical behavior, but that's not the point of Christianity or religion in itself. That's something both apologists like Turek and atheist objectors get tripped on. The point of Christianity lies in the story that it tells and how it becomes the story of the lives of all different individuals and communities. The problem lies in getting too caught up with abstract principles that have little to do with lived, concrete experience.
@@neildalessandro8196 I don’t think atheists ever raise the point of morals, they merely object to the constant ludicrous rantings of people like Turek.
@@SuperEdge67 I see them do it all the time. Especially when they complain about God being pro-genocide, pro-slavery, a homophobe, a child abuser, etc. and not fitting their standards of basic human rights. They think they understand the Bible better than they really do. None of their claims give me reasons to not believe in God. But it tells me what they'd be if they were believers or professed to be such.
@@neildalessandro8196 They only raise it in response to claims made by Christians. Where ‘morality’ comes from is reasonably self evident to anyone with an ounce of intelligence who hasn’t been indoctrinated into Christianity. It not a subject that is raised by atheists generally, only in response to the absurd moral argument for the existence of god made by Christians.
You can't have a "former Christian". You are either saved or never were saved.
Erroneous Calvinist thinking.
Well, there are a lot of former Christians. People that once were as sure as you are now that they were saved.
read 2 Peter and Hebrews 6. The Holy Spirit seemed to think otherwise.
It’s not “eternal life “
If it can be taken or lost.
It would be called temporary life
@@rickkelley4618 read the entire Bible. Then come back and we can discuss the nature of God and how He interacts with mankind. I follow God not Calvin.
Christian leader? No such thing.
Gal 3:28 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
All this guy can say is “how I feel” or “ I feel “. He’s in a place right now where he’s on the throne and God isn’t.
Since it's HIS life, yes, it's about his feelings.
God Bless You all. All Glory Honor Praise Worship and Thanksgiving to God. Jesus is King!!! Thank You God for just who you are and everything Thank You Jesus for everything thank You Holy Spirit for everything we love You God with absolutely everything with all our heart soul mind and strength
How do you get from no ultimate purpose to, therefore no purpose? Our very nature gives our lives meaning and purpose, just not ultimate meaning and purpose.
They will call it subjective and walk away like they have accomplish something with that.
Why? Because they were never believers to begin with. If they truly had the Holy Spirit within them they would never question their Faith. Remember when Paul would lay hands on those who were baptized by Peter and other disciples. Paul knew they weren't filled with the Holy Spirit and weren't true believers.
That's the difference with Jon, being a cultural Christian compared to a Spirit filled Christian.
When it comes to morals. Bill Clinton told Milosevic that it was immoral to kill Bosnians. Milosevic said, "your morals or mine"
I still love his music. Some favorites are “Diamonds” and “Drops in the Ocean”. We need to pray for him! 🙏🏻
Just be happy he's freed himself
[Leibniz's contingency argument for God, clarified]:
Ten whole, rational numbers 0-9 and their geometric counterparts 0D-9D.
0 and it's geometric counterpart 0D are:
1) whole
2) rational
3) not-natural
4) necessary
1-9 and their geometric counterparts 1D-9D are:
1) whole
2) rational
3) natural
4) contingent
Newton says since 0 and 0D are
"not-natural" ✅
then they are also
"not-necessary" 🚫.
Newton also says since 1-9 and 1D-9D are "natural" ✅
then they are also
"necessary" 🚫.
This is called "conflating" and is repeated throughout Newton's Calculus/Physics/Geometry/Logic.
con·flate
verb
combine (two or more texts, ideas, etc.) into one.
Leibniz does not make these fundamental mistakes.
Leibniz's "Monadology" 📚 is zero and it's geometric counterpart zero-dimensional space.
0D Monad (SNF)
1D Line (WNF)
2D Plane (EMF)
3D Volume (GF)
We should all be learning Leibniz's Calculus/Physics/Geometry/Logic.
Fibonacci sequence starts with 0 for a reason. The Fibonacci triangle is 0, 1, 2 (Not 1, 2, 3).
Newton's 1D-4D "natural ✅ =
necessary 🚫" universe is a contradiction.
Natural does not mean necessary. Similar, yet different.
Not-natural just means no spatial extension; zero size; exact location only. Necessary.
Newtonian nonsense will never provide a Theory of Everything.
Leibniz's Law of Sufficient Reason should be required reading 📚.
I think they both need to listen to each other a little better. I can tell that both sides are quick to make their point instead of slowing down and digesting what is actually being said.
Jon is just avoiding the real issue. He's talking in circles and refusing to talk about his real obvious problem. He's gay. He has children. He's torn. He doesn't want to be confronted just yet. He cannot come into the light with it just yet.
It'll take some time. His kind is always subverted because they cater to feelings. He cannot condemn his friends because he's a Liberal and cannot separate from the world. And then, somewhere, he crossed that line and liked it. He cannot accept the truth of the inerrant Word of God. Until he's ready he'll just talk in weak circles and he knows it.
Gospel light churches produce this kind of thing and they are growing exponentially. It's sad. No preaching on sin produces luke warm believers. Hot preaching drives the rebellious away. Giving your flock cotton candy weekly keeps the rebellious in the pew. A hot Bible will draw you closer to God or drive you away.
_"Except when Stalin comes along... that's a problem"_
That's a problem if you are trying to put an objective "right or wrong" label on actions, based on the goals of individuals... which Jon isn't trying to do. It's still the case that most people value survival and a peaceful, prosperous society, and what Stalin did was objectively against that.
Playing devils advocate but if most people suddenly decided that they wanted to commit suicide would that be morally acceptable?
@@MrSpaceCrash Well, it probably wouldn't promote those same values that I listed above. So from that perspective, no. Wanting to commit suicide doesn't necessarily mean that they've flipped on those values. It usually means that they feel like they are in a hopeless position, and can't attain those values.
@NikoR96 _"And who decides what sort of survival, peace and prospery is enough?"_
If you are trying to advocate for collective action, then everyone collectively, for obvious practical reasons. If you are just trying to decide for yourself, then you do.
_"If God does not exist, and He does, then everything is subjective"_
Not EVERYTHING. It's objectively true that gravity pulls me to earth, whether God exists or not. Regarding what goals we should advocate for... yeah... it's subjective. That was already clearly stated. What's your point?
@@MrSpaceCrash Atheism can't be morally responsible and accountable for anything
@NikoR96 _"They should go to God through His Word, the Bible, to see murdering innocent babies in the womb is always wrong."_
So, when God decided to flood the whole world, killing pregnant women and their babies, he was wrong. Correct?
So Jon never came before the Lord in prayer and humbled himself and experienced the Holy Spirit ? Without faith its impossible to please God....
The dude was never a Christian , I mean look at his haircut
Yes as a Christian God commands you to have your hair cut in very specific ways and that style of hair is forbidden by Jesus
Oh good grief, a certain hairstyle does not dictate your religious beliefs
@@missymurphy9996 DUH
Are you kidding?
@@Human1136 no.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Jon can't repent unless God grants it to him.
3:00
"He's presupposing that the purpose of life is human well-being. Well, with atheism, why is it human well-being and not roach well-being, or no well being at all."
Sam Harris, "According to Sam, the meaning of life is to be human without any fear. We should be practical and know that we are not immortal here, so stop biding the rituals that have been given to us by our ancestors."
"We have to be honest and kind to everyone in life. The meaning should be created by helping others."
It's not roach well-being because roaches aren't human.
No well-being is the complete opposite of well-being.
Frank understands this, but he deliberately makes these statements as if it proves a point. It doesn't.
And you deliberately glossed over Frank's message and not answer the question; Why human beings and not roaches?
@@raygrasso1612 Yes I did. Did you even read it?
We read it it just doesn't make logical sense. The statements don't track. There is an assertion without any supporting groundwork. Ill use your quote as an example. Please read with patience I do have a point I'm trying to make I promise I'm not trying to win an argument for internet points I genuinely want to try and change your mind. That out of the way, onto the statements.
According to Sam, the meaning of life is to be human without any fear. (This statement seems to mean that the meaning of life is to exist without any fear of danger which is a non sequitur anyway. There is no meaning in base existence, if you existed in a room forever and had no meaningful interaction but you were immortal would that life have any meaning? If you made the question broader into "what does life mean? Why are we even here?" You start arriving at the actual question.)
We should be practical and know that we are not immortal here, so stop biding the rituals that have been given to us by our ancestors.
(I'm paraphrasing but making the most of your life sounds like a great idea. Its the rest of the sentence that doesn't track. We will all die so lets ignore the advice of all of our ancestors who were wildly more successful than us in more difficult situations because the future is now old man?)
Its not roach well-being because roaches aren't human.
(Ok how about aliens if they exist? Do they factor into morality? You'll probably say yes in which case I will say why? This all comes down to the fact that you want to remove the bible but keep the biblical presuppositions. Why shouldn't I kill everyone and destroy everything around me?Why follow the golden rule if I don't care what happens to me. What's stopping me? Human decency? What if I don't care about that? Should other people stop me? Why? These are hard questions that are not as easy to solve as they look)
We have to be honest and kind to everyone in life. (Why? There is no underlying reason for this statement. Be nice to each other why? Because you'll get something in return? If I'm stronger than someone else why should I do that? Why not take as much as I can from others live life with as much well being as I can get and then die before I get old enough to have regrets?) The meaning should be created by helping others. (Meaning from helping others WHY? I'm repeating this alot to draw attention to the fact that these are all statements assuming that you either want to do good or want to cooperate. Why should I want either of those things?)
No well being is the complete opposite of well being. (You watched that old debate didn't you? It was a good debate, but this statement still has a massive flaw and I shouldn't have to point it out anymore. Why should I care about anyones well being including my own? There are people who live life with the belief that existence is suffering and that we would all be better off dead. You need a rational statement for why those people are wrong beyond (we all agree to be nice to each other because we can all work together and accomplish more together)
You are also making statements as if they prove a point. Your rebuttal is not as foolproof as you think.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ THIS WITH SOME CARE AND ATTENTION
I understand that what I'm typing might not make complete sense but read what I'm typing and try and fill in the blanks. This is a very complex and important topic that I think a lot of people ignore.
There is more to life than living without fear. We see wrongs in the world and are compelled to do right. Because we have an innate understanding of right and wrong, even scientists are seeing this in babies. We are most definitely without excuse. Created universe defined by laws and a moral law written on each human heart.
@@MrSpaceCrash Because he's giving his perspective on how to build that groundwork. He's trying to do it without appeasing to a god.
It's a lot more difficult when you don't get to point your finger up in the sky and say God did it.
I can't really answer everything that Sam is talking about, so if you want to know you... I advise you go read about it from him.
It not about alien well-being because we are talking about humans. It's not roach well-being because we were talking about humans. It's not dolphin well-being because we're talking about humans. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
As for no well-being: If you don't want to worry about other people's well-being, then don't. Though, you won't last to long and neither will anyone that relies on you.
I read what you wrote, for the most part and gave you my response.👍
Frank there's no way to discern objectively the moral persuasion of self defense. When exactly has the accused exhibited excessive force?
He says it's "good" for you to not be murdered, but if there is no objective morality, all you can say is that we have a drive to survive, and not being murdered would enable us to survive, but why is that good or bad, morally? it will mean we will go on living. We get what we desire because we keep on living, but this is different to moral good and evil. Is receiving what you desire what moral "good" is? We live contrary to this all of the time. We do what we think is "right" even if we have to die for it, sometimes. Morals go deeper than even death and sacrifice. There is clearly something much deeper happening.
With this type of individualistic morality, laws and ethics would basically come down to what each individual wants and that would then naturally flow to what the majority want, which is a major problem that we've seen happen in history. How else can we make laws based on individual desires and needs other than what the majority of the individuals desire? If majority thinks it's good to kill a certain race, does that make it good? no. It just means they get to do what they want. The "what's good for ME" type of morality is not only potentially catastrophic but I'd say that it lies at the root of evil. Basically that "Good" is what I as an individual desire, as long as a bunch of other people desire the same thing, then It's justified. I find this to be absolutely absurd. I refuse to believe that if for example 80% of the world thought it was the right way forward to kill off children, or a certain race, that this is therefore "good." Morality doesn't exist at this point. It's just raw human desire and self satisfaction.
Let me give you a scenario to demonstrate that moral "justification" and moral "good" do NOT depend on any "God" 👍
let's say the there is indeed a "creator god", ( NOT THE BIBLICAL GOD IN THIS SENARIO ) and let's say we all become aware of this one true "creator God" and understand implicitly and precisely how he wants us to live our lives and the rules that govern this but ..................
We also learn that following said rules would infact lead to humanity suffering an eternity of torture and suffering. 😱😱 Would it still be a "GOOD" thing to follow said rules ??? Would we be "justified" in following them ?? 🤔 *I would emphatically say NO to both questions*
Indeed the total opposite would be the case following the rules would be a "BAD" thing and we would be entirely justified in NOT following them.
This is because the words "Good" and "justified" in actuality refer to our desires with regard to "WELLBEING" and the actualization of a situation that conforms with said desires, regarding wellbeing and the values it incorporates.
Now let's change our "God" to the Christian one, now we recognise that *EVEN IF* he exists and is Perfectly moral and the things he tells us ( his laws ) would lead to an eternal paradise, it would only be "GOOD" to follow said laws because of their conforming with our perception of "WELLBEING" and we would only be "justified" in following said God if we determined this to be the case, so..........
We would be entirely "justified" in following a moral system based solely on wellbeing *UNTIL* a demonstration that a creator "God" EXISTS, we know specifically WHICH ONE out of the many thousands proposed is the "correct" one, that we have the "correct" interpretation of his wishes and laws ( 43,000 conflicting denominations just in Christianity ) and lastly that those wishes and laws conform to our perception of "Good" to "justify" this being mankind's moral reference standard.
Now call me fussy but I don't think its "Good" to kill children for making fun of baldness ( as the biblical God did ) Nor to own people as "PROPERTY" for forced labour. For the life of me I can't see how the stoning to death of people who gather sticks on a sabath could ever be said to be "Good" 🤔
I could go on and on and on .....
What makes a "Christian" want to leave Christ?
What makes life different for those who reject Christianity?
I don't think Jon really understands the difference between objective and subjective
Who would let this degen take the moral high ground..what lunacy
Sounds like he is trying to fit his ideas into a bubble that doesn't need God, even though no matter how he tries to "spin" it he can't get away from truth....no matter how hard he tries
And what is the truth?
@@Mavors1099 you are trying to get me into debate here I see...I don't need to explain the truth that is being discussed here because I already know it, but Frank offers a plethora of resources if you would like to find it for yourself.
@@keithadams5190
So you don't know.... Ok.
@@Mavors1099 yeah that was what I said.......
I think stoning someone to death is wrong I wouldn’t take my child up a mount anti kill him like Abraham did either so ya it’s not as easy as u think to just be religious
I was a trained Catholic for 25 years.
Then I began reading Buddhist literature and became a Buddhist for ten years.
Then I began reading the Bible and became a born again Christian for five years.
Finally I began watching atheist you tube videos and now I'm an atheist.
Any questions?
You were not chosen by God so you will end up walking through the wider gate. You can't say that you were born again then go back to your sinful ways. You were never born again, you were just looking for prove and not believing in Yeshua. Its very simple. God has given you a will to chose and you have chosen not to believe in him, so you will perish just like most of the unbelievers. I was saved by God in 2018 and have not looked back to my idolatry life i had before. I love the living God and will never turn back. He is the way to salvation and eternal life.
@@virginiasanchez4614
I guess that the religious BS that you have said just makes his atheism stronger.
You go where the wind blows and have no roots to live off of and sustain you in every season! In Christ, Andrew
what made you go from one religion to another then to atheism?
@@virginiasanchez4614 whether you are right or not, you are making accusations or assumptions about his life without knowing anything about his mind or experience. I doubt Jesus himself would've responded the way you did given this encounter. Please try to be more understanding of where someone's mind and heart are at in these conversations before directly judging their character or making claims about their fate.
What happened to his hair?
praise the only true living LORD and GOD bless you all glory be to the HOLY TRINITY forever and ever amen 💖✝✝✝...
Wait, the one god? Or the 3 gods?
Never understood why this discussion is always so much about objective and subjective..... I really don't care. If you want to explain why we have morality, evolution is enough to do that. If you want as justification, evolution can't give one, but again: I really don't care (and why would anybody even need a justification?)
Correct.
A lot of people in these comment replies seem to believe that God, who created us and is perfect, should be beholden to the same set of rules and standards that He holds us, His imperfect creations, to. Purporting that God should be or behave a certain way according to how we subjectively determine morality (in our own minds, apart from His) is like the Earth telling the Sun what temperature it should burn at. Our experience of existence is completely different from His, so we need a completely different set of rules in order to function well within it. That's not hypocrisy, it's very specific guidance and instruction that we often choose to ignore.
And therein lies the ultimate conundrum. Choice. If there were irrefutable and indisputable evidence of God's existence, it would be a difficult argument to make that you still had a choice to not believe in Him. There is irrefutable and indisputable evidence of gravity. Does anyone here feel like they have a choice not to believe it exists? Perhaps you still have a choice but no one chooses it. Everyone believes gravity exists BECAUSE of the evidence. However, believing in gravity doesn't cause you to behave or treat your fellow humans in a certain way. Loving (not not loving) them does.
So just like God forcing you to love Him would make that love not real, He's not going to force you to believe in Him by proving his existence like gravity. Then you'd just believe because He made you. You would love Him because He told you to and it makes no logical sense not to. He doesn't want that. He wants you to choose Him. Not inspite of how difficult this mortal existence can be, but because of it.
If he is going to set the rules and make the end consequences be either pure bless or infinite torture, then it is only fair that the rules be well defined. Cause right now the only choice that matters according to your system is picking the right book to believe.
For example, say a country had 15 different contradicting law books and the country's government never reveals which one is the correct one until at trial and you will be put to death if you failed to follow the correct one. I certainly wouldn't call that a fair and just system. Certainly one that I would never want my loved ones to live under.
If god really did want us to be able to choose fairly, then the best route would be to make hell a nice place too. That way people won't be fearful of the consequences of not loving god and instead only those who actually want it will pursue that relationship with god.
Sorry but you don't lose your faith in Christ, you never really had it in the first place. Many will say Lord, but He will say I never knew you.
I think what you meant to say is, if you lose your faith in Christ, you never really had it in the first place. Is that what you meant?
Just be honest you want to be your own God! You want to do your own thing! I will Never understand having had God in your life and the indwelling of the Holy spirit how can anyone go to the other side. But then maybe they Never had God and the Holy Spirit in the first place! God bless!
_"Do your own thing"_ you say 🤔 hmm
Tell me dear can we use *ANY* "God" as the basis for this "objective" moral standard you speak of.?? Or just the SPECIFIC SUBJECTIVE invisible being *YOU* determined to be the "correct" one out of the many thousands man has preposed.
If its the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if its the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍
The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
Frustrating to see Frank use the Presuppositional Apologetic but not hold the Atheist feet to the fire and press them for a definitive answer.
The switcheroo is strong with this one.
Bottom line, he presupposes that objective morality doesn't exist. He just doesn't have proof for it.
lol you say we " have no proof that god does not exist "
Are you really this illogical ?? My 5 year old daughter understands why we live our lives according to what we DO know exists and not by what we dont. Normally I would not have to explain why , but hey here we go just for you.
Could I just assert for example that ........
About 500 million light years past the milky way there is a planet . And way underground in caves on this planet there lives a tribe of invisible leprechauns. They spend their days FARTING , and these FARTS smell like lemon curd. But every third fart then turns into a galaxy, incredible.
Can you prove that those FARTS dont smell like lemon curd eh can you ? Can you ? Because if you can't it must therefore be true .😀................
Can you prove tinkerbell doesnt exist ???
No how about zeus or Thor , Mohammad, UFOs, ghosts, Yeti's, or the lochness monster ??????
This is how pathetic your position is , do you think all of the above actually exists because no one has disproved them yet ??🤣😅🤣😅🤣😅🤣😅🤣😅
I never heard or this guy. Leader of what?
I mean he wasn't really a Christian. Seems like a grifter in the music industry, who doesn't really understand what he believes.
So you read his mind? You know his heart?
This guy is gay through and through lol
All deconstructionist stories are the same. First didn't realize you could be a Christian and not believe in creation/Flood... then stopped believe in the old Testament entirely. Last is belief in Jesus but it all starts with not trusting the scriptures are 100% true and unchanged.
Christianity didn’t become a world religion because of the quality of its teachings, but by the quantity of its violence.
Can you provide me with an example of where Christ commanded this violence and how?
@@T0Mmichael1234 is that the point? Just because Jesus never said it doesn’t mean people haven’t committed violent acts in his name?
@@Bomtombadi1 give me a list of the amount of wars started by Christianity alone.
@@lightningmcqueen5162 so the violence of Christians is limited to the amount of wars?
@@Bomtombadi1 your statement assumes they were even Christian at all, the bible condemns such acts of bloody war in the name of God, we are called not to war with unbelievers but to call others to christ, and create disciples around the world