Dear Stephenie Meyer
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2018
- It's time to re-examine the decade-old culture surrounding Twilight-bashing.
Twitter: @thelindsayellis
/ lindsayellis
"Awoken" by "Serra Elinsen" - amzn.to/2UFzb5i
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I remember mocking my little sister for reading Twilight, she then turned to me and said “at least I read books” and I still feel the burn many years later
I want to save this comment and share it. This is to great.
The shade
You should write a book just to spite her.
@@jor4114,
It would be great if he became a gazillionaire from that!
*presses F to pay respects*
I love seeing the internet kind of enter this phase of "hey remember all those things we used to hate relentlessly just because they were popular? Maybe they're not so bad." We're growing up!
@@kieranstark7213 oh I absolutely agree! If we have a negative opinion based on merit and actual criticism, that's perfectly valid. I mostly mean that I'm happy to see people expressing a multi-dimensional perspective on things that are popular to criticize.
No twilight is still bad
"Maybe they're not so bad"
Uhm, no, it's still bad, we just understand that being bad doesn't warrant hate
@@simonegreco1958 that's pretty much what I meant, but you definitely put it much better haha
Reverse nostalgia?
Damn i never realized how much society hates teen girls
Kind of but society also hates on teenagers in general because most teenagers are fairly stupid kids that aren't even close to maturing physically, mentally and emotionally.
I'm certain if most people were able to somehow watch a film/show comprised of various clips from when they were between the ages of 13-19, they'd be cringing at how dumb they used to be.
ikr! same here
yup, but some things, which is seen as extreme feminite ("""in a bad way""") are going to get a lot of rage hate from everywhere
Society hates everyone except rich families whose legacies have controlled the world since time immemorial. Girls, boys, men, women, old, young, poor, confused, smart - every group someone is foolish enough to consider fundamental to their identity will be absolutely ripped on by every one else, some are in jest, most out of vindictiveness and basic human cruelty. We can't please or accommodate anyone in this world, least of all ourselves.
@@kevincola3184 I very much agree that teenagers and pre teens get way more hate then justified! I will say though a lot of times boys will get less hate on the things they like compared to what girls like. Examples of this is with chick flicks or the idea that femininity is a bad trait.
Let's all say it together:
"There's no wrong way to be a woman"
Geez I feel the comments about hatred for femininity. I joined a radfem forum and it was amazing how much it was tolerated to put women down for liking makeup and dresses. Not crapping on radfems in general here but I think the denigration of non-harmful personal choices needs to be addressed. It drives women away from thinking/talking about actual problematic sexism because they don't want to be associated with pettiness or hatefulness, as well as feeling that if people talking about those issues are petty and bitter, they themselves must be so as well for having ideas in common with that group of people.
You can do wrong things, but that's more of a general human behaviour thing, it shouldn't be tied to your being.
(I wish there were fewer people who went all in on conspiracy theories)
@@DerAykac Thank you for your unrelated and bitter comment. I just love how it hijacks a reasonable and empowering feminist statement and tries to make it about men and how oppressed men are. So nice to have heroic men like you to let us know when we've gone too far. Wouldn't want to forget the poor suffering men for a few minutes to talk about the systemic sexism against women that has been ingrained into our society for centuries.
"Heterosexual women also have valid identities, and your oversimplified view of JK Rowling does more disservice to you than to her."
Nobody has said that heterosexual women don't have valid identities. JK Rowling has an actual history of using her platforms as a means of invalidating transwomen because she believes in biological determinism, which psychologists have proven to be false. Sarah Z has a video regarding the topic here ua-cam.com/video/m-rh-N4eFDU/v-deo.html, which provides receipts detailing Rowling's anti-trans sentiments.
A TERF is somebody who actively expresses the idea that transsexual women are invalid and don't deserve to be treated the same way a cis woman does. Calling somebody TERF is not equivalent to using anti-trans slurs because TERF describes people who follow anti-trans ideologies. By your logic, calling someone a who expresses fascist ideologies a fascist is also using slurs.
Can we just extend this to "There's no wrong way to ... be"?
And I don't mean this in an aLl LiVeS mAtTer way.
Back then I initially didn't know about all the hate twilight got and without bias pirated "some movie about vampires" and watched it and while it didn't blew my mind I thought it was okay (just like some dumb action movies were okay) and even that the style of the movie was unique in a cool way. So in my ignorance of the whole discourse back then the movie was... alright. Which I, as a 20 year old dude obviously wouldn't admit to anyone until much later and had I known before I would have bashed the movie relentlessly like anybody else.
I'm more or less confident in who I am now and in the things I like but I still see many male colleagues/friends, who are awfully stiff about being a man or what they are allowed to enjoy unironically.
Also, I will go on the record saying that the idea of having vampires secretly playing baseball with each other out in the woods somewhere is novel and possibly brilliant.
I call the rights on writing a book about that
@@Izzy-ez7lb I imagine you should credit Stephanie Meyers for the idea, but let me know if you write it!
Not gonna lie that part was so off the wall that it sucked me into the story harder.
Huh? Why?
vampire baseball is the backbone of this society
IT'S FINE
it's fine
You're fine
And just when I am about to sing the lady of the houses praises, there she is.
I thought I heard a familiar voice...
No, really. It's fine.
I respect Meyer for the "take the money and run" vibe I get from the fact I havent heard shit about her for almost ten years.
LMFAOOO
True. XD She may be toxic in the books, but she's not person who wants fame just for fame. That's cool.
She has actually written since then, she wrote a sci-fi book called The Host, which is also problematic, and she wrote Life or Death (genderbent Twilight which she also wrote for the 10 year anniversary), The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner (a novella in the perspective of one of Victoria's Newborns) and recently she released Midnight Sun, which is Twilight from Edwards perspective. She also plans to write two more books in the Twilight universe.
@@emmiebunny04 Two more after Midnight Sun?! I hope she finishes them off soon....I wonder what about though.
@@Femmefatale1990 Hopefully going into more about Alice. She’s an incredible character who is underutilized in the books but her perspective on how she sees the universe is absolutely fascinating
I still don’t understand why people watch fast and furious movies...
Thank you!
The first one was a fun movie
Because it's about family
The want to see ilegal car races and don't care about the plot , i guess
car go vroom vroom!
Also can we apologize to Kristen Stewart. She was the victim as much as Meyer was, which was stupid considering she paid the role of Bella to a T. I was absolutely apart of that hate train as part of my "hating things is cool, hating other girls makes me a better girl" phase. She smiles when she wants to and she can act just fine in other movies. Not to mention that she believed Twilight would be a small movie and not the mega franchise that it was.
Karina Sanchez she did her best considering the material, and she even made Bella sympathetic to me in the first movie.
In those movies too Pattinson is a MUCH more bad actor than Stewart ever was
I honestly find it kinda scary how easily people project feelings about characters onto the actors that play them.
Twilight was never supposed to be a major franchise.
Karina Sanchez Honestly her career wasn't that different from that of, say, Mark Hamil at her age, and I think she's doing better than him.
The first time I watched this video, I started to cry when Lindsay said “You’re not stupid or wrong if that’s your fantasy.” I had never heard that before. It was such a relief.
I know this is an old comment, but I wanted to say that I've felt the exact same before. I had a hard and long journey coming to a point where I'm okay and proud of the things that make me happy no matter if its a cheesy romance novel or pop music. I can also like classic literature and jazz. One doesn't cancel out the other, and one doesn't make me stupid or vapid. I hope you can (or have) come to a similar acceptance and find joy again in things you like!
@@kataangluv100 You should be proud of yourself for realizing that. Keep going. Don't feel like you have to qualify the pop music stuff by saying that you like "not dumb" stuff, too, like classical music.
bruh true. i've always been afraid to say twilight is one of my favourites because a lot of people just go straight up trash on me because I actually like it. This vid made me subscribed to her channel. I like how she didn't downright trash her and be hateful.
I just wanna leave this quote another youtuber said regarding to twilight:
"People just don't decide to loudly hate someone or something on their own, they do it because there's a crowd cheers them on everytime they loudly hate it."
if this isn't a fact then, I don't know what it is. and people aren't ready for that conversation yet.
I mean it's okay to wait for your vampire husband but it will never come so it's time to let this dream go :(
I am a software engineer and it is like logic on steroids ..... Deadlifts for the mind ..... Sometimes we need books like twilight ..... The last thing I want to do is come home and think more about stuff ..... It's nice, warm and fun
I said it once and I'll say it again: My only issue with Twilight is that it shows abuse as normal and even romantic. Both Edward and Jacob don't know what consent is and it's terrifying. I will never mock someone for liking Twilight, but for the love of God don't think the relationships in this book are normal. If your partner acts like Edward or Jacob, RUN.
Thank you! Some genuine criticism of twilight that doesn’t revolve around “girly stuff bad”
fr...seeing those sort of relationships in the books i read kinda messed me up throughout middle school and in highschool i had to create a whole new image of what healthy relationships actually are
As someone who reads, a lot, a lot of YA books display unhealthy relationships a and a lot don’t . It’s a bit unfair to assume that teens aren’t smart enough to discern that a guy stalking you isn’t ideal, but cute in books. Fantasy standards and IRL are different and a vast a majority of the population knows that.
This is the biggest reason I dont like twilight, this kind of message is kinda dangerous when the target audience is a teenage girls.
See I think twilight did make me vulnerable to that kind of relationship. However, I think it could have been a learning opportunity for me instead. I was just so ashamed for liking it and the sparkly vampire aspect and the stalking parts that I never thought about the more normal relationship parts. That could have led to a more useful conversation rather than me hiding the book in shame haha. Rereading it as an adult the more subtle parts of the books actually got through to me and brought up uncomfortable memories. We just don't trust teenage girls enough to have these difficult conversations. Twilight could have been a vehicle for that, kept a toxic relationship in the fantasy realm for me and saved me from living through it.
This might be a little dumb but I honestly feel like sOcIeTy's hate for teenage girls really impacted me in growing up, questioning everything I do and like, hating myself for who I am and trying to change my entire personality to what I thought I should be. I'm still struggling with being myself as an adult now.
that’s not dumb at all! i’d say that the majority of girls, including me, have this experience growing up. i used to say i hated taylor swift to other people, despite being a fan of her my whole life. i really struggled with accepting my interests because i constantly saw other girls shamed for the same things i enjoyed. i’m trying to reclaim those lost years back though by starting twilight today and i’m already half way through it lol
@@personaljesus4278 jesus christ! I'm so sorry this happened to you - it's not remotely ok :(
yea this sucks people hate on others for what they like and dislike but its really none of their business
It doesn't seem dumb to me at all. I think that's a very insightful bit of self-reflection and understanding.
It's a real shame that "sOciETy" has become overused and misunderstood to the point of becoming an internet punchline. We are undeniably influenced by the people, norms, and history that surround us, and it's important to examine those effects often.
“We kind of hate teenage girls.”
Ouch. For years I tried to make myself less girly or an acceptable amount of traditionally feminine. This is eye opening. Thank you.
It is! A simplified version of it is the "I'm not like other girls" trope; it's just internalized misogyny. I used to look down on "girly-girly girls" as being lesser and that was just a complete bullshit attitude and I regret it a lot.
True
To be honest, there's a good reason to kind of hate teenage girls. Teenagers, boys and girls, are the dumbest and most irritating. And the girls are worst than the boys. So they take the prize for the most annoying part of humanity.
Same! Until recently I hated dresses and skirts cause I felt so vulnerable wearing them and wanted to come off as not a wimp and tough
It's so true. Since high school, I've been wearing my hair short, dressing in baggy t-shirts and jeans, hanging out with guys and calling everyone "dude." Now I'm a 24-year-old who feels like she has to hide her love of stuffed animals, summer dresses, kittens and bright pastel colors, lest she be labeled as a "dumb girl." I'm deeply ashamed that I ever felt that way, and I'm only now beginning to embrace my true "softer side."
"We hate teenage girls." As a 20 year old woman who was absolutely a self-hating teenage girl, this hit hard. I'm a university student and a massive nerd, but I also really like a lot of traditionally feminine things and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that there's nothing wrong with that and I'm not lesser, or less intelligent, because I think interior design is cool. It's something I'm terrified to admit because I don't want to be seen as somehow inferior, and be immediately cast aside as a shallow valley girl. I've only been opening my eyes to that issue in the past few months.
We demonize our girls. When we make Strong Female Characters, we make them tough and aggressive girls, fighters who don't show their emotions and hate to wear dresses. We make our girls strong by making them boys, because being a girl in our society is still bad.
Wow, that's a good point!
And please, don't feel guilty about liking "girly" things. There's more that one way of being smart, so; you do you.
Every so often, though, we somehow manage to strike the balance of a female character that can be tough and yet gentle.
Take Hua Mulan in the 1998 Disney animation. Why did Mulan go off to war? She didn't want her father to die, something that would surely happen if he went. Mulan knew she'd face execution if she was found out. Mulan knew that she'd probably die on the battlefield. Mulan went anyway.
The very best example, though? Katara. Just... Katara. This is a girl that is strong enough to subdue a crazed princess- yet gentle enough to heal wounds with just a touch. Perfectly balanced.
Dont you get the point the point is all Bella did was to live for edward she never focused on her career being a girl doesnt mean you live for boy and even if you want to live for someone why not your family which bella just abandoned being a strong female caharater means to fight for what you need agression is something that all. Women and men have it is nowhere written women cant be agressive yes they can show their emotions but what kind of women goes into hell and become a zombie when bf leaves her now thats strong being a storng character means standing for yourself and not depending on everyone. Else if that is what according to being a girl. Means then you are literall bella whining all about. Men having no ambition opinion or any dreams all that you want is boys. Being strong and independent doesnt mean behaving like boys it means behaving like a human having something in your life to do rather than whining about boys and thats what women empowerment means. Girls lile you can only like twilight.
@@SamaritanPrime very well said
And yes socitey doesnt make girls strong by making them men they make women independent women are not meant to live for boys or producing babies yes babies are what any women feels proud to have but that doesnt mean she will sacrifice everything for it and if thats wbat your point is leave the college go get married and have a kid sit in your room
Being independent is what humans do and not only boys women like you make women weaker by saying these comment being independent and strong is what's gonna make any men women happy and not whining about a man in their Lives. If thats your opinion of women that if women become independent they ac like boys then I woulf say yes I would rather behave like a boy than be a idiot huamn whining for boys and getting married in my youth
I recently read Stephenie Meyer's answer to the question whether Bella is an anti-feminist character, which I found on her QA. I think this might be interesting to people watching this video, so I will re-post it here:
"Is Bella an anti-feminist heroine?
When I hear or read theories about Bella being an anti-feminist character, those theories are usually predicated on her choices. In the beginning, she chooses romantic love over everything else. Eventually, she chooses to marry at an early age and then chooses to keep an unexpected and dangerous baby. I never meant for her fictional choices to be a model for anyone else’s real life choices. She is a character in a story, nothing more or less. On top of that, this is not even realistic fiction, it’s a fantasy with vampires and werewolves, so no one could ever make her exact choices. Bella chooses things differently than how I would do it if I were in her shoes, because she is a very different type of person than I am. Also, she’s in a situation that none of us has ever been in, because she lives in a fantasy world. But do her choices make her a negative example of empowerment? For myself personally, I don’t think so.
In my own opinion (key word), the foundation of feminism is this: being able to choose. The core of anti-feminism is, conversely, telling a woman she can’t do something solely because she’s a woman-taking any choice away from her specifically because of her gender. “You can’t be an astronaut, because you’re a woman. You can’t be president because you’re a woman. You can’t run a company because you’re a woman.” All of those oppressive “can’t”s.
One of the weird things about modern feminism is that some feminists seem to be putting their own limits on women’s choices. That feels backward to me. It’s as if you can’t choose a family on your own terms and still be considered a strong woman. How is that empowering? Are there rules about if, when, and how we love or marry and if, when, and how we have kids? Are there jobs we can and can’t have in order to be a “real” feminist? To me, those limitations seem anti-feminist in basic principle.
Do I think eighteen is a good age at which to get married? Personally-as in, for the person I was at eighteen-no. However, Bella is constrained by fantastic circumstances that I never had to deal with. The person she loves is physically seventeen, and he’s not going to change. If she and he are going to be on a healthy relationship footing, she can’t age too far beyond him. Also, marriage is really an insignificant commitment compared to giving up your mortality, so it’s funny to me that some people are hung up on one and not the other. Is eighteen too young to give up your mortality? For me, any age is too young for that. For Bella, it was what she really wanted for her life, and it wasn’t a phase she was going to grow out of. So I don’t have issues with her choice. She’s a strong person who goes after what she wants with persistence and determination."
- Stephenie Meyer, from stepheniemeyer.com/the-books/breaking-dawn/frequently-asked-questions-breaking-dawn/
you don't have to be a feminist to support "prochoice in anything" movement. I think it is a basic human decency, that what he or she likes, if it doesn't hurt anyone why stop/discourage the person.
I do think the start of her argument is kinda bullshitty, fiction can mirror real life in very meaningful ways even if a lot of elements like magic and vampires and shit aren't real. You can absolutely have really problematic themes in your book, and Twilight actually does have other aspects to it that are....not great....at best. But I do like the second part of her argument a lot, where Bella making the choices she made doesn't make her anti-feminist, because that's what she wanted from her life. Bella honestly isn't a bad leading female for a book like this.
Ever since I reached Bella's age of eighteen, I finally understood her. Also completely stopped whatever disdain I had for Twilight,because admittedly it WAS the series that made my fascination with vampires amplify even more.
Also,Stephenie Meyer was on point with her line of "On top of that, this is not even realistic fiction, it’s a fantasy with vampires and werewolves, so no one could ever make her exact choices. " and "However, Bella is constrained by fantastic circumstances that I never had to deal with." A lot,and I mean a LOT,of critics seem to forget this fact about relationships in fantasy worlds.Yes,some relationships you may not like and may think are unrealistic and unhealthy. In the real world,that is. But they're applying real world standards to situations that can only happen in that kind of circumstance in fantasy,which isn't the best way to judge a character/relationship if we in the real world are unable to experience ourselves(because again,we aren't thrown in that situation). And like Meyer said,she never intended for Bella to be the figurehead or model for anyone in real life.
@@sffb8295 the only difference they have in our world is sparkly vampires and werewolves. Their relationship is a great depiction of bad relationship and a blank slate protagonist but as long as you do realize this and still like it hey more power to you but don't pretend ficiton effects your perception. It doesn't matter if it is a fantasy sci-fi etc LOTR is a fantasy book yet it effected the perceptions of millions on many things. Stephanie did not deserve the bullshit she got but let's not act like it was a good book or had good characters... well Jacop was nice until end of the new moon and Leah's story was really interesting being stuck in a boys club with no acceptance and being hang up about her ex is with her cousin because of imprinting and letting these obvious pant up frustrasion and anger apperantly makes her a bitch etc but they didn't go anywhere. I would not let my girl read twilight to be honest until she comes to an age that can recognize the problematic elements at least.
Thanks for finding and posting!
Liking a popular thing will make you basic and trashy.
Liking an underrated thing will make you an edgy try hard, who wants attention.
And liking both will make you a two faced snob, who can't decide to pick one or the other.
There is literally no way to win here.
I think both is the best bet:3
Yeesh
You defined perfectly how I felt being in the third place.
Like, "am I good enough in this thing to be part of it? Should I shit in the opposite? But I kinda like it too... what do I do?"
Liking something that's non popular or is traditionally masculine gets you pick me or not like other girls like there's no winning
The way to win is to just stop caring what other people think of what you like.
I can't believe you predicted the theme of the barbie movie
Man this whole hatred for young girls and the things they like really really hurts to think about. I used to hide all my interests from people because they were always seen as bad, embarassing, cringy, childish, dumb etc. And I still hide them to this day sometimes. Then, young girls often force themselves to be interested in "boy stuff" to finally get some respect there. Don't get me wrong, a lot of them do really like these things! But either these interests becoming 'more girly" makes them hated or the girls are just called "fake fans". There's no escaping this bullshit, man.
I can really relate to this. Thank you
ana medina Me too.
You see these days, the Billie eilish hate train, and the whole "14 year old girls" depicted as dumb meme. Nothing's changing anytime soon
@spooky katt Wasn't Bella using every chance she got to have sex with the vampire? How is that innocence?
Also, you're a joke.
This has nothing to do with the Twilight hate train, trust me.
I personally never liked Twilight. It just wasn't my cup of tea.
BUT the hate the author and the actors received was absolutely unnecessary and extremely rude
I read it so I would know what to hate but I never did end up hating it. It was meh. When I read American Gods I was strongly reminded of the feelings I had. Like I see the appeal in a way but for me, it's meh.
Me too, but I wasn't its target demographic. I agree about the actors, even now I see people going on about how the two leads can't act (after announcements of Charlie's angels and the rumours surrounding Pattinson as Batman). But almost none of those people have seen the other films they were in. Hell, half of them probably never watched Twilight to begin with!
Sesame Street Enthusiast omg usagi matches ur comment
I read the books.....they were something to read? The books kept my interest. And honestly it wasn't the worst thing I ever read. Lol XD
True
This video made me realized how much internal misogyny our society has. Growing up I have always liked stereotypically feminine things (being boy crazy, like makeup, played with dolls, etc.) That’s just the way I am. I’m not tough and brave, and I could never win a physical fight.
There was a time when I thought I had to be tuff because of these fictional characters I idolized especially Katniss from the hunger games. But my personality is absolutely nothing like her. These tough fictional women are supposedly perfect role models fir teen girls, while a more traditional female character like Bella is deemed boring and a terrible role model.
Feminism does not mean that women have to reject femininity and try to be “not like other girls.” It’s about allowing women to be wherever they want. If that means being basic then that’s fine. If it means being a tomboy that’s ok too.
Society hates on cheesy romance targeted towards women because they think it has no real value and reinforces negative stereotyping of women. But it’s ok to like that stuff, including Twilight.
I love action movies and movies that typically men like, but I also love twilight and romcoms. And that is ok, girls can like whatever they want and not be critiqued for everything.
as Stephanie Meyer said herself:
"Is Bella an anti-feminist heroine?
When I hear or read theories about Bella being an anti-feminist character, those theories are usually predicated on her choices. In the beginning, she chooses romantic love over everything else. Eventually, she chooses to marry at an early age and then chooses to keep an unexpected and dangerous baby. I never meant for her fictional choices to be a model for anyone else’s real life choices. She is a character in a story, nothing more or less. On top of that, this is not even realistic fiction, it’s a fantasy with vampires and werewolves, so no one could ever make her exact choices. Bella chooses things differently than how I would do it if I were in her shoes, because she is a very different type of person than I am. Also, she’s in a situation that none of us has ever been in, because she lives in a fantasy world. But do her choices make her a negative example of empowerment? For myself personally, I don’t think so.
In my own opinion (key word), the foundation of feminism is this: being able to choose. The core of anti-feminism is, conversely, telling a woman she can’t do something solely because she’s a woman-taking any choice away from her specifically because of her gender. “You can’t be an astronaut, because you’re a woman. You can’t be president because you’re a woman. You can’t run a company because you’re a woman.” All of those oppressive “can’t”s.
One of the weird things about modern feminism is that some feminists seem to be putting their own limits on women’s choices. That feels backward to me. It’s as if you can’t choose a family on your own terms and still be considered a strong woman. How is that empowering? Are there rules about if, when, and how we love or marry and if, when, and how we have kids? Are there jobs we can and can’t have in order to be a “real” feminist? To me, those limitations seem anti-feminist in basic principle.
Do I think eighteen is a good age at which to get married? Personally-as in, for the person I was at eighteen-no. However, Bella is constrained by fantastic circumstances that I never had to deal with. The person she loves is physically seventeen, and he’s not going to change. If she and he are going to be on a healthy relationship footing, she can’t age too far beyond him. Also, marriage is really an insignificant commitment compared to giving up your mortality, so it’s funny to me that some people are hung up on one and not the other. Is eighteen too young to give up your mortality? For me, any age is too young for that. For Bella, it was what she really wanted for her life, and it wasn’t a phase she was going to grow out of. So I don’t have issues with her choice. She’s a strong person who goes after what she wants with persistence and determination."
- Stephenie Meyer, from stepheniemeyer.com/the-books/breaking-dawn/frequently-asked-questions-breaking-dawn/
Exactly; there's no reason to not like both. :) Life is too short to not like the things you like.
I've always been a tomboy...but I liked Twilight growing up, and I enjoyed those little doll dress up games. I enjoy a good romance/rom-com (hence why I liked Twilight lol). Do I think it's a good view of a relationship? No. But it's not like fucking action movies are good views of how to drive cars/deal with conflict/basically doing anything in the real world.
Preach
Hate to break it to you but it is actually post 2010 feminists who are extreme misogynists and misandrists. Feminists before the 2000s were about choice... men and women should have a choice. But since the 2010s... a lot of now middle aged crazies have flooded the feminist market... resentful of the young or the feminine (be it men or women).
You're not 'basic' - you're all you're meant to be.
I will forever have a special place for these books in my heart because my DAD was the one who got me into them. He wanted to know what I was into, and saw a copy of the first book in the bathroom once, and the next thing I knew he had read them all 🤣. Then per when the movie came out, HE TOOK ME to see it (I was not yet a big fan), and then ragged on the changes in the film with me afterwards. He was a big fan - Charlie being his favorite, and he's since passed away. Now anytime I see anything related to the films/read the books, I just have this warm n fuzzy feeling because of my dad, and that makes me happy. Thank you Stephanie Meyer, for making books to bond over in ways I didn't think possible! 😂
Omg that is such a beautiful bonding experience!
So heartwarming ❤️
Best comment in this thread. Your Dad sounds wonderful. With all this discussion about what makes a good « role model » He’s a good ‘role model’ for dads everywhere. 🙌🏻❤️
That's very cute
This story reminds me of season 3 episode 3 of Parks and Rec where the dad wants to put the Twilight novels in the town’s time capsule because his daughter loves them. It’s so cute how much he loves his daughter and loves twilight.
100% took being "girly" as an insult when I was younger. God forbid I utilize the choice to act like a "tomboy" or "girly-girl" and choose the latter.
Nowadays I wear pink dresses to my tech job & my soul feels on fire because I live a life where I feel like I can do both.
Ma’am you are a queen 👑
YES! As you should!
Reclaim your femininity queen! Femininity isn‘t childish, bad, boring or lame. It‘s just as valid as Masculinity. Go out there being the woman you are and don‘t you ever let anyone tell you how your female identity is lesser! 💪✊👩🏅
The former not the latter. Sorry I know this is nitpicking but the latter means the 2nd and the former means the 1st. Also same.
Yahuah don't care if your Tom boy or a grirly girl. It's not forbidden.
He would support you.
Rock on.
Western society: "Be unique! We value individualism in this culture."
Also Western society: "Woah, okay I didn't mean THAT unique."
Oh boy, America! What a country!
they aren't ready for that conversation yet lmaoooo
In America, individualism means "hey fuck you buddy, I got mine. I ain't putting my taxes towards POOR people."
So eastern society’s are better when it comes to that? Grass is always greener.
@@NinjaOutfitInTheWash i think they're saying that because they're coming from the western society (as am i). it's not saying eastern society is better, just that western society is bad.
One thing that Twilight taught me as kid was you always have to wait for girl's consent or else you deserve a punch in the face like Jacob did in Eclipse....
Funny how apparently consent doesn't apply to edward though, bella was never mad about finding out he had been watching her sleep, in her room, at night, for weeks, without her knowledge.
@@nessyness5447 Watching her sleep really isn't the worst thing Edward's done. When Bella gets pregnant he promises to give Bella over to Jacob without her knowing as long as Jacob can help him get rid of the baby (without her knowing). Oh but it's fine because Jacob later decides to marry that baby!
@@kjarakravik4837 The HORROR that was the final book especially. I wonder if Meyer was just bored and maybe decided on doing something *cough* recreational while writing it. It differs so strongly from all the other books, genuinely creepy on another level from anything that was weird in the first three.
Hell, she might’ve just included all the shocking stuff because she knew it would sell.
@@kjarakravik4837 that's not what happened in breaking dawn... Edward was willing to let Bella have a child with Jacob if that's what she wanted, just like when she imagined a life with him. They did not plan on killing the baby without her knowing
@@kjarakravik4837 girl no he did not.
15:28 - “imagine if Stephanie Meyer *was* the vindictive narcissist... and HAD gone after E L James for... copyright infringement... fan fiction... litigated... and nobody wants that”
This is either the most brilliant foreshadowing I’ve ever seen, or the universe is truly cursed. Because WOW.
I was about to comment the exact same thing lol, that part really hits different after the omegaverse saga
@@adambebb99 fanfiction in general no, because fanfiction writers are not making profit. But banning publishing fanfiction of another work and making money of it , would not be that bad..it would save us of so much shit contents....
What’s especially interesting, both cases could have been correct without litigating fanfic - because both 50 Shades of Gray and Born to Be Bound are literally plagiarizing the stories they are based on. Like, literal repeating the original source, word-for-word.
Compare to fanfiction that uses the characters, universes, and ideas but really does write its own story.
Rereading Twilight in 2020 during quarantine helped me understand why I liked it so much when I was younger.
The feeling of being constantly out of place or not fitting, the low self esteem and depression where my constant friends.
Reading about a girl who felt the same was consolatory for me.
And there where some quotes from Edward that I felt like they where meant directly to the reader.
Such as: "You don't see yourself very clearly, you know.[...]"
That book helped me understand who I am and who I wanted to be.
Thanks to Twilight I started reading a lot, learned English (because I wanted to meet Stephenie), became a curator of the school library at the age of 13 and started an obsession for cars, especially Volvos.
Now, at the age of 23, I'm getting my degree in human rights and I'm fighting agains bullying at schools. Especially because I know the feeling of being bullied at school.
So, not all is bad if it helps you achieve your goals. :)
Wow! Way to go, Serena! Love from a small town in southern India.
That's honestly amazing!
That's amazing!!
fabulous! i’m proud of you ❤️❤️
Good for you! 💜
I was like 14 when I read Twilight for the first time, and I actually really enjoyed it, but I acted like I hated it because thats what all the 'cool kids' did. Now I'm a 24 year old grown ass man and I just finished reading my copy of Midnight Sun that I ordered off my dad's Amazon account. I really love Twilight. Its not perfect, but its a ton of fun to me, and I will no longer let people shame me or anyone else for enjoying something.
32yo man fan here.
i agree!!!💯
I used to refuse to read in school and it was the first book I ever read. Now I love reading multiple books a week to this day. It was fun!
I feel the exact same way, back then and now. Rewatching the movies has been a really nostalgic trip back to middle/high school.
I'm 28 and I've just realised how much I shamed teenage me for loving Twilight when I never deserved that kind of slamming. I've just reread all the books and watched all the movies again, and I still enjoy them. Screw all the haters.
I tried reading them when I was younger and couldn't get into them, and couldn't wait until the annoying hype was over. In retrospect, the books aren't great but they're fine. I also dislike how Kristen Stewart got so much hate for her acting ability (she's good, watch Speak) but Robert Pattinson didn't get the same hate - even though Bella and Edward acted the same.
I mean, there was a lot of memes about Robert Pattinson and Edward in general.
He did get a lot of hate. I remember it well because I loved him as Cedric Diggory (Harry Potter) and fet bad that all he was associated with was Twilight. I remember thinking those movies would haunt him forever and they kind of did.
He couldn't get a role without people saying he's a sparkly vampire, unfit for it. Even speculation of him maybe getting a role was sure to have a few "uuuuugh twilight sucks so he sucks" comments and I remember all the controversy of him becoming the next batman...
He got a lot of hate but not as much as Kristen which I think is either because she's the main, main character or because she's a woman.. or because of both
Robert Pattinson also get a lot of hate for it. It's just that he doesn't get as much hate as others because he was buffered by his previous role as Cedric Diggory.
Heck Kristen Stewart was actually a good choice to play Bella. Bella’s supposed to be quiet and reserved most of the time, and she doesn’t really show her emotions much.
I used to be all "ew I hate pink and dresses". Now I'm letting myself enjoy these things even if they're "girly"
People in 2008:
“Stephanie Meyer is an anti-feminist arrogant idiot. Let’s appreciate the actually good and politically woke writer J.K. Rowling.”
Me now after defending Meyer at the time: Oh how the turn tables
Stoyan Petkov True. But I think you meant “tables turned”. Still correct though
Janus Simonsen no it’s “how the turn tables”
Slava O no it’s “how the tables have tabled”
@@emilyhong2311 It's a reference from "The Office"
After we've seen how it could've also been (fifty shades of Grey) twilight is totally fine.
As a teenage girl myself, I read the twilight books a couple years back, and I enjoyed them. I remember thinking "why were these so hated?" and then I never watched the movies, because I didn't want to ruin that little corner of bliss I had cultivated with scathing reviews and bad book adaptations.
In other news, I do think that a lot of teens are becoming more aware of the mob mentality towards things that girls like. Things like kpop, "vsco girls", boybands, etc etc. My friend and I even have a little joke about how "no matter what music girls like, it's wrong", and I feel like people could mull over that one.
I think it's not just about K-Pop. It also happens if any girl likes to listen to Nirvana. I'm one of those girls who likes Nirvana. And many Nirvana haters claim that girls like the band just because the frontman Kurt Cobain had an attitude and some good looks. Yes, it is true that Nirvana isn't the best rock band in terms of technical talent. But then there are some people (and girls) who love this band because they simply love that kind of sound. Or it can also be that the fans relate with the message or the emotions attached to the music of Nirvana. Just because I love Nirvana doesn't mean that I'm a poser who knows nothing about "real rock music".
@@_sam_ddn That's exactly what i mean when I say that no matter what a teen girl likes, it's wrong. You like kpop and boybands and teen pop, and you're "cringey" and "obsessive" and "basic". You like rock music and you're faking it. You like rap music and you're a try hard. There's literally no right answer. We'll be made fun of, criticized, and put down no matter what we like. We will never, ever, be seen as "cool" in the eyes of the patriarchy, because teen girls simply aren't cool. They're the antithesis of the everything male culture stands for. Guys want a "gamer girl", and then take every single opportunity they can to humiliate and shame girls that like video games. There's literally no way to win. It's an impossible scenario.
@@stopme7030 well, there are few men (or boys) who treat us as equals. But yes, as you said it, we won't be seen as cool according to the definition of the patriarchy.
Another reason of this problem is that often a girl is teased by another girl for not being like 'other normal girls'. It's disappointing, isn't it?
@TripleDoubleNoTAS I'm not going to waste my time explaining to you how wrong and ignorant this is. A woman's identity does not revolve around their relation to men. If you were offended by my comments and think that I was referring to you, then you are the problem. Take some time to figure out why you feel this way about women trying to take charge of themselves and have a healthy discussion about our own experiences as women, which you will never be able to understand or relate to as a man.
@@stopme7030 I'm so sorry. Thank you for writing out your perspective. It's honestly giving me a lot to think about. I never saw it that way before.
I'm a parent. What you said is going to come back to my brain sometime when it needs to.
No matter what a teen girl likes, it's wrong. That's shitty. I'm sorry.
Re-watching this, particularly Lindsay defending Stephanie earnestly from not only the backlash, but the disproportionate invasion of privacy and the revoking of her status as an individual with the same rights as everyone else, hurts so bad after reading her letter. We really have to find a way not to torture our artists.
what letter?
@@yaeli_i_guess The one in which she announces she's leaving yt. Originally posted on her patreon, but you can find it both on reddit and with people reading and commenting here on ytd
@@leocornio ohhh thank you
This reminds me of the anonymous vocaloid/game producer who left everything they loved because people didn't respect their desire of not talking about them.
_"Why would someone post something in internet if they don't want it to be know"_
Because they want to make other people happy? Is that bad for someone to wish for privacy? Damn.
“Imagine if Stephenie Meyer was the vindictive narcissist that the 2009 internet made her out to be and actually had gone after E. L. James for what basically amounts to copyright infringement. Like, what if she had been, like, an Anne Rice type? And the whole Fifty Shades debacle ended up getting litigated in court? That probably would have ended up with the legality of fanfiction in general getting litigated. And nobody wants that!”
Addison Cain: Hold my wolf jizz.
It might have saved us from that 50 shades crap.
“Yet it is the masculine values that prevail. Speaking crudely, football and sport are ‘important’; the worship of fashion, the buying of clothes ‘trivial’. And these values are inevitably transferred from life to fiction. This is an important book, the critic assumes, because it deals with war. This is an insignificant book because it deals with the feelings of women in a drawing-room. “
-Virginia Woolf (A Room of One’s Own)
I'm a dude. I think that football and sport are fucking dumb and deserve the same level of contempt as stuff like Twilight. Which is to say, some - but don't just go shitting on things people like because you think they're dumb. That's a dick move.
@@dominict9325 Yeah, but try making the argument to your dad, boyfriend/husband, brother, male friends, or anyone really, that their decision to go watch the game on the other side of the country is a dumber financial decision than me dropping the same amount of dough that trip is going to cost (gas, a day off, overnight hotel, drinks, food and the tickets) on a handbag from my favorite designer. Hell, even as a teen I had a lot more success convincing my parents to buy me tickets to sport events or sport clubs (my god those must have cost a fortune) than paying for a pair of quality jeans instead of the cheap junk I was wearing for most of my life.
@@ideljenny Right? I'm freaking tired of having to defend Jane Austen as an important literary mark because assholes continuously minimize her writing as "old chick lit" since, apparently, the worries of women in early 1800s are irrelevant.
@@ideljenny Damn. If the men in your life are that tone deaf, I genuinely apologize on behalf of my gender. "Spending money on my trivial shit is okay, but we are wasteful if we spend money on your trivial shit." Selfishness at its finest.
@@dominict9325 How about instead of more contempt, try the more open-mindedness. Let teen girls go nuts over Twilight and let guys go nuts over football. Calling them dumb doesn't show me you're more enlightened, but rather less willing/able to understand others. I'm not into sports, but I can see the appeal (apart from the athleticism, it's a drama played out over a long period of time with varying cast members, heroes, villains, rivalries, prodigies, underdogs, etc). I'm not into Twilight, but I get why teen girls like it. You don't have to like something yourself to accept that others like it.
13 years ago. I'll just be sitting here and trying to comprehend that.
it means you are old
13 years ago, I was reading THE SHIT out of Twilight
We're getting old, dear.
13 years ago. Someone could have gotten their big start in reviewing on UA-cam by reading Twilight.
I was 13, nearly 14 when twilight came out. I had a friend who had family in forks and she came back over the summer with a new book signed by the author. I borrowed it and immediately fell in love. I don’t know why so many people hated it at the time. It fulfilled a need for many teenage girls
Not everything you have to consume has to be complete masterpiece anyway. "Oh my goddd haha you watch Friends, that show is not even that good it is so overrated" Well Woww f**** hell maybe after a 12 hour night shift I just want to sit and watch something lighthearted and fun and easy?????
Y e s!!
I've never disliked it 🤷♀️ 12 years after and I still watch it.
honestly
"she's in love with her own creation" so in my fair lady its cool, but in twilight it's not. nice.
I hate My Fair Lady, like HATE
Bibidibobbidiboops hahaha I don’t hate it but I wouldn’t go out of my way to watch it again. I just like listening to the songs 😬
Pattinson was a bit of a jerk to talk like that about her in that interview.
Making him look chill.
Dude, you accepted the role.
god damn.
The rain! In Spain! Falls mainly on the plain!!
I dont even know what that is....I'm not sure how I got here......DAD?
the worst thing abt twilight is that it inadvertently brought 50 shades of gray into existence
Ivy - the - Demon true 😂 i love twilight, and its crazy how Stephanie, who is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, inspired a book about sex
She cannot control that, fanfiction is like an open site for everyone, from the worst grammar and stories, to the weirdest, then there are few epic stories. 50 shadea started in fanfiction dot net
Carmela Camba ff. net is a lawless wastleland. definitely not surprised it came from there
Well just wait until 10 years from now and you can write an apology for that statement.
*356 days entered the chat*
"That would have ended up with the legality of fanfiction in general getting litigated, and no one wants that...."
That hits different after your most recent videos.
I read Midnight Sun recently, and what I liked most about it was that Edward falls in love with Bella because she is a good person. That's it. She's not some super brave warrior girl or this witty, sarcastic outcast. She is just a truly good person, and I think that's an underrated quality in female protagonists of teen romances these days.
"Good person"
That's... inaccurate.
@@earningzekrom4173 What do you mean?
@@SquishyButt Bella is anything but a good person: She is shallow, selfish, manipulative, whiny, pretentious, entitled, spoiled, lazy and self-absorbed, whose only "ambition" is being Sparkleward's sex toy.
@@jorgebersabe293 how many of the books did you actually read
@@audri1273 omg I fr was gonna say that like none of those sound like bella
I love Meyer’s response in that interview about 50 shades of grey, very mature
THE example of author loving and accepting her fanbase, even when it is a parasite on her content.
@@christiandavey4221 Not just a parasite, but one that stands in direct contrast to the original author's attitude. Both are wish fulfillments, but Meyers' and James' responses to critics, feedback, and adaptations are night and day. Meyers tolerated and stomached a lot of the vitriol she got, and still has a pleasant outlook on her book series and readers despite being slandered by both fans and haters alike. When the adaptation brought even more people to her franchise just to bash it, there wasn't any animosity to the director.
Meanwhile, when E.L James gets criticism from actual people in the bondage community that her books represent toxic and dangerous situations and relationships that could genuinely hurt people recreating it, she instead spews bile and claims anyone of that sort doesn't know what they're talking about. Her wish fulfillment came to a head when her books got adapted, as she was apparently an absolute pain on set, and constantly told the director he was doing shit wrong, since it didn't fit her giddy garbage erotica vision, to the point where her husband directed the sequels.
people hating twilight was like the beginning of 'i'm not like other girls. i have *emotions*, i have my own *taste* in things and i have my own *thoughts*.' it's like, yeah, you're right. you're not like other girls. not one girl is like other girls.
Nonsense, that was old enough to be parodied in Not Another Teen Movie four years before Twilight came out in 2001.
It really is cause that is such an annoying trope
That certainly is not when it started. One study traces it back to the 70s where about one third of adult women recalled being "tomboys" while they were in school. In 2011, about 60-70% of girls were "not like most girls" and that percentage has probably increased since then.
But yeah, people hating Twilight and other "girly" things is part of the problem. The reason girls act more like boys when they get to a certain age is because boys are socially superior and it's all a girl can do to be taken seriously by teachers and parents and friends. There are probably girls out there who dress like boys simply because they want to, but many do it because they don't want to be the target of mockery and dismissive attitudes.
Have you seen twin sisters?
i think its a direct result of misogyny but it manifests itself in different forms in different generations. in the 90s it was valley girls, in 2000s it was twilight fans, etc... but regardless of the generation, the entire world seems to hate teenage girls, which is so sad. so many of didn't get to live our teenage years properly because of that, we were made to grow up faster or distance ourselves from our own personalities. i'll never forgive the world for stealing my teenage years.
Daenerys was raped in the ASOIAF book too. basically heres what happened. she was scared of viserys so she agrees to be open to the idea of having sex with drogo, verbally saying "yes" during her wedding night, because shes being threatened by her abusive brother and she has convinced herself "im a dragon and im tough enough to handle it". yeah thats not consent. the next four months of daenerys' marriage with her "sun-and-stars" husband daenerys is raped daily.
her way of coping with this is praying that he "takes her from behind" so that she could muffle her own screams and cries with a pillow because it upsets Sun-and-Stars Bae when she cries. sometimes he just flips her over in the middle of the night while shes asleep and just does it without even a heads up. everyday she thinks about ways to kill herself until she finds out that shes pregnant on her 14th birthday. this is ABSOLUTELY supposed to be framed as rape in the books, moment because up until then daenerys' age is never mentioned. and the book just drops that bomb on you like "yup that 'woman' whose getting raped all day and night? yeah its a little girl. sorry."
there are a billion things the show did wrong but not sugar coating that moment under the guise of "but she said yes!" as if thats consent, is not one of them.
I just want to come back to this video to say that I remember it very clearly as a well-deserved slap in my face. This video called me out hard and really made me re-examine my past behavior and how I engaged with the things that young girls like.
Glad to see that some people can still admit that they were wrong. We need more of that.
Self included.
It’s a romance, that’s the plot. If people want to see danger and fast paced plots then they should read things that are made for that. Twilight was my balm growing up, I was bullied and awkward and my home life wasn’t great but I remember thinking: It’s going to be okay, I’m not alright right now but someday I will be. I’ll have my own happy ending. And you know what? I’m not ashamed to say Twilight saved me. It saved my life.
Same here. It made me love reading and helped me become a writer.
EXACTLY bella never had a boyfriend she is awkward and shy so everything feels way more intense which is very accurate to what happens when you also have your first partner
Same here bro. Twilight saved me too.
This was me but with Linkin Park. It makes me feel kind of bad for acting kind of "above Twilight" (even though I watched all the movies), because I absolutely hated when people did the same to Linkin Park.
You have the most epic user name and I sense that you love Mulan because of the same reasons as I do and what you wrote in your comment above.
Twilight was the book that got me into reading, and I will forever be grateful to Stephenie for creating the Saga. And just like me I know a bunch of girls that started reading thanks to this books, I'm talking girls who nowadays are book editors or are english literacy teachers. And for me I found the beautiful world of fiction books in an era where reading was "boring" and "for nerds" at least in my school lol
Back in ye olde 00s, my time on the anti-Twilight train came to a screeching halt because of exactly this: it was getting girls and femme folks into reading.
You know what I find interesting is how we are so concerned with teenage girls having "strong role models" but we never talk about what kind of role models boys have.
I never realized how much internalized misogyny i had until i watched this video. Wow.
Good for you
Same though, even more so when I was a teen!!
Well said. For me it was rejecting the taylor swift/ jonas brother fandoms in high school as if I was "above it"
Lit life S I hope that wasn’t sarcastic??
Me too!
I was obsessed with Twilight before the movies even happened and I was so loud and proud about it. Then the movies started coming out and, while I didn't hate them, the shame started to set in because of how masses of people reacted to it. Now I'm nearly 30, and while I do acknowledge the ways in which Twilight is problematic, I just don't give a shit about how "uncool" the series is anymore. I still reread the books and rewatch the movies, and I refuse to feel guilty about it. Also, I can't wait to read the fuck out of Midnight Sun...I feel like I've waited my entire life for this!!
Same, don't be ashamed of liking these books, honestly, its really such an over reaction how much hate the series got. Loved the books it gave me a community when I had no one, since I moved. A lot of things I don't agree with in terms of themes but you know what it's not real, its a fantasy. Plus most if not all the fans are 20 and above, we're grown adults to know the difference now.
Yesss 🙌
I see myself in your comment even down to the age.
I'm reading Midnight Sun and oh boy... Waited 10 years for this hahah
@@duskicakruskica I'm on the last five chapters of midnight sun and I am so happy! I can still remember when I found out that Stephanie's book had been leaked and she stated on the website that it would be a long time to feel inspired and write the rest and just how sad I felt but honestly it was worth the wait. I also find it quite ironic that Edward was "born" during a pandemic and we finally get his point of view while in a pandemic.
I totally understand why a lot of people find twilight to be awful, but I gotta say, it’s been my guilty pleasure ever since I was 14. It was the first book I actually read on my own accord and something about it drew me in. Even after discovering better books like the hunger games, I still find myself re-reading the twilight saga 12 years later and remembering how it felt to be a teenager relating to a fictional clumsy human who falls in love with an immortal sparkling guy with exceptional powers who’s obsessed with safety. As a lot of twilight fans know, the films didn’t do the books justice but real fans can still appreciate the films and their cheesiness.
I kinda wish Twilight's racism would have been discussed because it's one of it's problematic aspects, but yeah I don't remember almost anyone talking about it in the late 2000s. The Tommy Wiseau mention was on point.
Definitely, the way she writes the native characters with stereotypes, fetishization, and reducing them with animal traits is disgusting. She changed quileute legends to fit her narrative and they’re not a well known tribe with well known legends, it’s very harmful. Plus she made Jasper a confederate soldier, which he went out of his way to become and never showed any remorse for it later.
@@near8924 All that stuff should be more mentioned when people critize Twilight. Meyer should pay the quileute tribe for using their image and the harm that it caused. And yes, Jasper being a confederate soldier just shows how little she cares.
@@s.3712 How do you know jasper?Are u anyhow related to him,or maybe his date of birth?Are u sure the jasper u know and the one in book the same person.Coz as far as I know it's a fiction....
So instead of crying racism over someone creation that too a fiction why not you lot go and write your own.coz looks like u lot know a lot.Go n write your own book and give them a justice.For a start create your characters or two and try describing their features.
Yeahh. I see people now going out of their way to take the title or the fact where she says the backlash was overblown out of context as yet another way to go "See she DEFENDED RACISM!"" As yet another tally in the list of sins (and retroactive justification for their own behavior). When imo, that requires them leaving out the bits where Lindsay specifically pointed out that A) not all the criticism was disingenuous and that B) the entire thrust of the video is clearly not so much meant to be absolving Twilight of every single specific sin, but saying that a majority of the popular backlash *back in the late aughts* was over the top and not really proportionate, good faith criticism of say, the racist elements of Twilight, but a very thinly veiled wave of hate for something that was popular with teenage girls and for said teen girl fans.
people in 2008: Twilight is the worst book ever written!
E. L. James: hold my beer
Mary Ellis but it was a real twilight fanfiction, what could you expect?
You said it ! Fifty shades was just 🤢
I've seen better written plots on pornhub.
After is going to be a movie as well, God have mercy on us it's getting out of control
Tea*
the argument that "there isn't a plot until the last 50 pages" isn't valid. the plot of twilight is the relationship between bella and edward; it's a love story, that's the plot.
I think that complaint comes from the fact that a love story is only as good as the characters in love. So unless you die hard ship the two and are interessted in their lives it feels like nothing is happening. In other words people were too bored to see the A plot and when the B plot was resolved in the last few pages people confused the A and B plots.
A love story still has a plot.
like... why are ppl so obsessed with plot when its a fucking romance? why does it have to be super developmental why cant it just be cute and hot scenes???
Yup, and people shitting on that plot cause they don’t like it.... good for you, go read the thousands of other books out there that I’m sure you’d like, instead of shitting on something and harassing the author. Some people don’t get the concept that not everything is for everyone.
@@intotheunknown6736 I agree but there is always a widespread frustration when something mediocre (or bad) gets this popular. Hating it is a bit exaggerated though. And harassing the author is idiotic.
I'm gonna go in a rather... different direction. Take it from someone who liked Twilight as a teenager. It perfectly came out at the start of my puberty and I read ALL the books. It was one of my adolescent obsession besides Harry Potter, and I actually looked into Twilight because I loved Robert Pattinson as Cedric Diggory (Cedric died, so I was so excited when I heard Rob was cast into another movie).
But now that I'm older I realized that some people weren't wrong to say that it was problematic. There are plenty of things that Edward did to Bella in the course of their relationship such as gaslighting, stalking, being possessive, isolating her from her other friends, withholding intimacy, and he practically decided everything from her because "he knows better". Nobody taught me in 2008 that those are red flags in a toxic relationship. I was a teenage girl with 0 experiences, I wish someone could've! And let's not pretend that the relationship between Jacob/Renesmee and Quill/Claire isn't child grooming.
GOT are more ridden with toxic elements like r*pe and incest but it was not written in a way that branded it as romantic. Plus, it's not marketed towards adolescence so people who read or watch GOT know that these things are cringy in real life. That's why choosing the right target audience is important if you want to add darker elements to your story. Have you ever heard people say dreamily: "omg... I wanna be like Jaime and Cersei"?? Literally said no one ever!
It's okay to enjoy Twilight (honestly the fantasy elements are pretty well-written) but it's also important to acknowledge that some tropes in the romance are undoubtedly unhealthy and shouldn't be treated as "the ideal relationship". And it does not apply to ONLY Twilight tbh, but other fiction such as Harry Potter too. Enjoy it, but address the problematic elements.
But do I WISH that Stephenie had sued E. L. James. Twilight is problematic but 50 Shades is a literature horror. It's effin unreadable. It's an abomination.
I have actually seen people ship Daenerys and Drogo though...
@@ThePigeonBrain Same. Maybe it's better than Daenerys dating her own nephew.
Yeah, Twilight is still better than fifty shades series. I'm always in that opinion.
So I think the problem with the attacks surrounding Twilight, wasn’t that ‘hey, here are all these legitimate takes regarding sexism, misogamy, abuse, stalking, and a pro-life agenda being shoved down our throats in the last book and the like’ bc those issues are there and THAT is what should have been examined. The problem is, is 99% of the attacks were ‘omfg it’s SOOO stupid! It’s just boring feminine romance, omg Bella is such an annoying character who doesn’t do any cool (ie masculine) stuff like fight or smirk or snark, and if you like this you’re an idiot.’
You're making such a good point. From my personal experience, and what my parents taught me when I was younger, the entertainment you consume has a much bigger effect on your life than you realize. Yes, it's fiction, it's not real, but that doesn't change the fact that it is going to leave its mark on you as a person. Entertainment is VERY influential and that is why parents really should pay more attention to what their children read and watch.
I distanced myself from certain books until I became older, because I preferred reading them at a more mature age instead of picking them up as a naïve pre-teen, resulting in me exposing myself to things and elements I do not understand yet.
I’m gonna say it. I HATED reading until my senior year of high school (it was 2018). I read twilight in January of that year and became obsessed with reading after that. It’s a gateway drug to reading for me!
I deeply regret bullying other girls for liking these books. They aren’t doing anything wrong by liking a book, they’re just teens enjoying something and don’t deserve to be made to feel bad over something so minor. I’m not a “better woman” by distancing myself from all teen girl guilty pleasures and nobody is a “worse woman” for enjoying them. You can like things, it ain’t that deep. I appreciate you talking about this, I’m sure this is comforting to people who grew up liking Twilight and similar things.
I hope the ones you bullied are successful and you lead a very shitty life.
I admit, I was on the hate train too. And watching this made me realize I've been a jerk in a lot of ways.
I sat down and binged the movies with a friend during this pandemic. And I was shocked at how...harmless the whole thing was. And fun. They're just the right amount of goofy and silly mixed with likeable characters (except for Jacob, he's trash). They became a real source of comfort to me in this weird and dark year. So yeah, Stephanie. I'm sorry, too.
I still have strong negative feelings towards Twilight, but this was a great video with valid points, got me thinking.
Same
The absolute best thing you said was about how we hate teenage girls. We do. We hate them so much it is terryfying.I don't know why that is, but it is frightening in and of itself. All the big things that get the massive hate of the general public tend to be 'girl' things.
The general public hates these things because they're not supposed to be qualitative. They're supposed to speak to the lowest common denominator, so that all teenage girls, in all their shapes and sizes, with all their personal uniquenesses, enjoy them.
That means it's paint-by-numbers art. And so paint-by-numbers that a machine could've made it. People don't like soulless media, and most media targeted at YA girls is pretty soulless. It's very basic in nature and simple in structure.
And often there's not even any real action to redeem its basality.
@TheArrowsPath You're absolutely right. There's a reason people despise girly stuff. And one doesn't need to be a feminist to despise it.
Good fiction takes the reader/viewer to places they don't go in their everyday life. That's why action and adventure themed fiction can get away with being silly.
Having a crush is commonplace. Books about it are redundant. No need to read sexism into that sentiment.
I feel this so much. I was really unimpressed with the series when it came out, but no moreso than with the "guy stuff" aimed at me. The criticism took me by surprise, not the content but the magnitude. I first encountered it after I told friends I'd seen the first movie. I wouldn't have normally, because I'm not a huge movie person, but it's apparently a good movie to watch when you're learning a foreign language because it's not complicated, and we'd seen it in French class. But the backlash against something merely boring and with some gross themes (again bad, but not nearly bad as some other movies) has always really floored me. I don't like coming to the defense of something I don't like.
I absolutely agree. Growing up, I decided I hated the color pink. Why? Because it was a *girl* color. It wasn't cool to be a girl and like *girl* things.
I wish I could've gone back and told young me that there's absolutely nothing wrong with femininity. There's nothing wrong with loving romance novels or soap operas or fashion or anything that people despise for its girlishness. I also have masculine-coded hobbies, as it happens. I'm really into college football, for instance, and Dungeons and Dragons, which, to a greater or lesser extent, get coded as "guy things". All of those things are fun as shit. I like to dress up cute so I can go scream bloody murder at my favorite team on Saturdays and that doesn't make me any less of a fan or any less of a woman.
(Kind of funny on D&D because it's very similar to the stereotypical female style of childhood play where you make up long, tangled stories with your dolls. It's like marketing trains us to be good D&D players and forgets to follow up!)
I felt so attaked. Never realized that the reason I’m such a tomboy was Becuse I didn’t want to seem like “zone of those girls” example. All the girls I know are listening to kpop. I love kpop! But when somone askes me what kind of music I like I say heavy metal. :(
To be honest, I was one of the teenage girls who stared all star-struck and in awe of Twilight, then I realized the books series was a literary equivalent of a popcorn movie (only with romance instead of all the action). Much later, I grew to resent Twilight, mostly for a very personal reason.
You see, since I come from a pretty conservative background, Twilight was one of the few sources of knowledge about romantic relationships I had access to. That's why ,when I first started dating, I not only did ignore all the red flags - I actually took them for the signs of the true love.
However, I would like to point out that this shouldn't have happened in the first place. As a teenage girl I should have been already educated about this sort of things, especially about consent and the sense of self worth. Stephenie Meyer wasn't the one who failed the teenage me, the society and my loved ones did. It wasn't Stephenie Meyer job to rise me and teach me about life, it was my parents'. If the culture I live in wasn't so obsessed with the idea of keeping girls pure, naive and innocent, I would have been able to spot which ideas presented in Twilight were healthy and which were not. Instead, I was told that I was too young to know about all this stuff (I was 18) and that I would magically understand everything as soon as I met the right person (never happened).
That's why I cannot help but think that all this Twilight-shaming was a cover up for the real problem. It was like saying "Look! Everything is this book's fault! There's nothing wrong about the way we rise children and treat young women! It's not like we need a proper sexual education in schools!".
Marta Tarasiuk I'm so glad to see people like you sharing your story! There's a problem with education, and a tsunami of books/shows aimed at young girls, with unhealthy romantic relationships.
The fairest summary one can give of Meyer I think, especially with your story in mind, is that she's a wasted opportunity for alot of young girls.
Marta Tarasiuk wow what an amazing comment, thanks for sharing
Marta Tarasiuk I know how you feel from a male perspective. My family is Catholic and I'm within the Asperger's range of autism (I don't mean this as any sort of insult or excuse). The combination of these two things lead my parents to largely focus on my social (friend/etiquette-wise) survival rather than my romantic ability or knowledge. Due to this i've found myself stuck in an unhealthy relationship that lasted over 5 years and included so many other men dating my at the time girlfriend it's not even funny. If you were to ask my friends, you would also find that I am very touchy feely, sometimes in terribly inappropriate and embarrassing ways and it's something I have not only been called out on, but am trying to fix and am ashamed of. I can't blame my parents too much. They really worked hard and still love, support, and guide me to this day. However, their talks in the matter of sexual education occurred multiple times and were all extremely lackluster in every occasion, always ending in "Try not to before marriage, but use a condom if you do." I honestly feel that shows like Steven Universe, Toradora, Gumball, and other shows meant for children and teens have helped me more in the end than my family or culture has because they go through the trouble of trying to show healthy and unhealthy relationships and how to fix them or when to cut them off. I also have issues of flirting stupidly and, at times, unintentionally, and having a very Disney-esque, unhealthy view on romance. I've had issues of declaring that I love someone after two weeks of dating. In the end, I understand somewhat the things that hindered you from correctly understanding how relationships are supposed to work in order to be healthy. I think it's a problem plaguing American and other JudeoChristeoIslam based countries in the current time.
I know this comment is seven years old, but I think for the first time, a UA-cam comment affected my opinion.
I don't think it's okay to romanticize abuse and creepy behaviour (especially to this extent) but you know what, you're right, we can not go and put the blame on the author, we can't have a series be our scapegoat, we need to read these as signs to the far bigger and complex problems that result in writing like this.
"Theres no plot until the end" drives me MAD because yes, the action driven plot doesnt begin until then. But the romance and the emotionally driven plot is very thick and dramatic so... I dont get it. The conflict of Edward hating vampirism and all that is actually not as cringy and "sad boy basic" as so many people believe... I actually think it's kind of profound. His conflict of not wanting to turn Bella, wanting for her to be able to grow old and have kids and stay with her dad and mom. Like, they kind of found loopholes everywhere and she ended up actually not having to sacrifice much at all, but that werent the stakes in the beginning. The stakes were he fell madly in love with her but hated who he was and didn't want her to suffer as he did, also he was afraid of killing her; so much he wanted to leave her multiple times, he didnt want her to give up her life for him; not to mention the his own personal drug thing... and like the fact that he couldnt read her mind... I mean shit yeah its cheesy and stupid but you could take those elements and tell a damn intriguing story. Die mad about it. There was a lot of plot. It was just romance.
Wrong: That was many things, but romance wasn't among them. It was obsessive lust and domestic abuse falsely portrayed as true love.
Exactly. "Plot" is not always about chase scenes and explosions. Take 12 Angry Man as an example! The whole plot is that a bunch of people are sitting in a room, arguing about a homicide case. That doesn't mean it's boring.
I'm not saying that Twilight is a literary masterpiece (it's not), but as a romance novel, it doesn't have to have a wild plot with twist and turns, and it is totally enjoyable.
I'd probably argue we should be harder on the toxic boy books and movies just as hard instead, some good points here still though
LIKE THOSE FUCKING FAST AND THE FURIOUS!
@@obiwankenobi9141 how is it toxic? just dudes racing cars and occasionally kicking the ass of a criminal. It's as superficial as twilight but def not toxic
@@unamedunamed7384 they’re just exploitative of masculinity, they’re trying to make money off of testosterone filled men who don’t know any better.
@@obiwankenobi9141 It's a movie where a dodge has 5000 horsepower and a pontiac firebird has a freaking rocket engine. Why do you expect movies like this to portray masculinity accurately. Also you're implying that only testosterone filled men watch this film which is wrong. Is it wrong to like mindless action movies. Do we need to watch A sundance nominated film everytime. By your logic girls cant enjoy John Wick which is obviously untrue. Do i have to take estrogen before I watch a romedy? Tf are u on abt.
@@unamedunamed7384 I wasn’t saying only testosterone filled manly men watch it, I was saying that’s who they’re intended for. And also, you’re comparing John Wick to fast and furious, that’s like comparing citizen Kane to a Rob Schneider movie. Also I’m fine with enjoying mindless bull crap, but as long as that bull crap doesn’t pretend to be dramatic story telling, like in the 8th fast and furious movie “fate of the furious” (who the fuck comes up with these names), it has all this talk of “Family” and tries to have legitimate stakes, but then it just bombards you with more ridiculous stunts and crazy shit! So WTF are you on about?
Wow, this video really did make me think, it never occurred to me that the Fast and Furious movies essentially occupy the same kind of escapist wish fulfillment power fantasy for teenage boys that Twilight does for girls, but they absolutely do. Good video.
That's pretty much how I've always felt about them. I could never describe it exactly, but the Fast and Furious series always reminded me of Twilight in some weird way...
or transformenrs for michel bay
The difference being you can actually buy or build a car and street race it etc etc... And everything in twighlight is fantasy.
if you're into anime, any isekai manga/light novel/anime is wish fulfillment in a similar vein to twilight. the only real gripe i have with them is the main protag is dull as dirt and visually barren compared to the female cast. they've gotten better with it lately i suppose.
@@Odinsday in all fairness the transformers movies are the same way and they get shit on alot.
You reading an excerpt from Ready Player One made me realize that my fanfiction writing might be better.
Everyone's fanfiction is better because at least they tried lol
fanfiction can be beautifully written but no one wants to recognize that bc of the rep it gets.
Not to demean the quality of your writing (which I'm sure is lovely!) but literally everything is better than Ready Player One.
@@Natalie-ip9co Plus fan fiction is technically copyright infringement.
Christopher G true, but many authors don’t mind, some even greatly support it because they see it as free advertisement and keeps fandoms alive long after the series is over. That’s why I think fanfics are still being allowed and haven’t been stopped.
The Host is really good. It shows that Meyer really took a lot of the more technical and prose focused criticism to heart and improved, and it's just a good standalone science fiction novel.
Aaaah, YES!!! I don't have a problem with the Twilight saga. I never was a fan, but I enjoyed reading them.
The Host on the other hand? I absolutelly LOVE that book. It has a good story, good characters, and the dynamics between Mel and Wanda is really interesting. Unfortunatelly I found the film a complete letdown, but I'm still a big fan of the book!
i enjoyed the host
if someone told me 10 years ago that i would respect meyer more than rowling in 2020 i would scream but here we are... also: i fell into 'hating twilight' trap in middle school too, i read it because all the girls were reading it and talking about it, but i, being a harry potter die hard fan, was sceptical about twilight from the beginning and i didn't make fun of my friends for liking it, because i wasn't an asshole and i remembered being made fun of for liking hp in elementary school, but god did i make fun of twilight online.... i feel bad and i cringe when i think about it but it happened. and re: hating A Thing because teenage girls love The Thing - billie joe armstrong from green day said in response to criticism that green day is liked by teenage girls that he is proud that such a important and not easy to please group likes his band. so. yeah.
SAMMME. I have mad respect for S Meyer now. Her announcing the release of Midnight Sun in this dumpster fire of a year is a mood. Also, considering how classy she is / was about the whole 50 Shades thing. Mad respect. And Kristen Stewart, I definitely owe her a cosmic apology. I recently watched Charlie's Angels, the newest version, and while it is not my fave, I do have to admit, Stewart stole that movie. She's funny and warm, and entertaining. I decided I can't even with JKR.
Also Robert Pattinson. He was the recurring meme of not being able to act among me and my friends but damn was he good in TENET
Respectfully, I think you're falling into a similar trap by joining the "I hate JK Rowling" crowd. The level of hatred she's receiving is completely unjustified and misdirected, even if she were wrong in some of the things she believes in. She's right in saying times change, woman-hating is eternal.
Meyer is Mormon. She’s more than likely transphobic too. Lol
@@scarol17 "even if she were wrong"
Gosh, imagine that.
No, people are allowed to hate a multi-millionaire for using her massive platform to cruelly cheer on hate and discrimination against a marginalized community that has never done anything to her. She receives about a tenth of a percent of the hate that trans women with much, much smaller platforms do, in their case simply for getting a modicum of clout. She has been repeatedly quoted by politicians in favor of anti-trans discrimination. She has spread long-debunked lies. She has expressed friendship with steadfast homophobes and has attacked people for talking about their PTSD.
By all accounts of her words, actions, and writing, JKR is definitively a woman hater herself.
Bigot hating is not woman hating. JKR has the agency and free will to decide to become a bad person who has hurt others, as she has done. Implying otherwise is deeply misogynistic.
'We kind of hate teenage girls' hit me harder than I thought it would
I was going to say the same thing. This whole video made me realize the whole "I'm not like other girls", "strong female character", "feminism lite" stuff I went really into in my teenage years really harmed my self-image and romantic development, because it is based in this sort of internalized self-loathing.
This video made me realise I had internalised misogyny 👌🏼
ikr
It's ok. Just be yourself.
Same here. It's... Weird to realize...
Dude. That his hard......
You should at least be proud that you are able to realize it and now you can address it and improve. A lot of people are so full of themselves that they can't handle even considering the possibility that they might be acting in cognitively dissonant ways, so they just stay in denial and act out through more vocal hatred. When you realize that you can improve, that's when you take the step to becoming a better person. Because let's say maybe next time there is something that the mob is hating on: you can draw from this experience where you realized that you had internalized misogyny without knowing it, then be able to better reflect on yourself and whether you as a person truly dislike this thing or whether you're going to step up and defend a relatively innocent victim.
I love seeing how things have changed since 2008. The fact that we're even having this conversation.
This is kind of what happened to me. I loved the books so much I read all of them like multiple times and then the movies came out and all of a sudden "Twilight" had become very big. But, at the same time, it had also become people's favourite thing to hate and I started getting swept up in the deluge. I resisted really hard but over time I had to become a hater of something just because society seemed to demand it and this video really put things in perspective.
i work at a bookstore where most of my coworkers are the same age bracket as me (18-24) a vast majority of us got into reading BECAUSE of twilight, it was the book that sparked a generations love for reading. We finished twilight and realized that we liked the escapism books could offer so we picked up another series, then another and so on and so on. I could never get on the hate train. yeah twilight isn't the holy grail of books. so what? no book is. if it makes you happy, if it gets kids or teens or moms to read it did it's one job.
keira thank you!!! im 17 and never read a book that wasnt for school 😂 im reading midnight sun rn and i LOVE it, ive also alwaaaays loved the twilight movies so its perfect for me
Harry Potter is what made me realize I can actually LOVE books but most books I read after that I found just “okay”. I mostly kept rereading HP with 1-2 other books a year.
Reading Twilight in high school was what sparked my reading habit; suddenly I couldn’t get enough of books! I must have read through most of the Paranormal YA in my school’s library. I jumped on the Twilight hate train after the first movie (which was really so, so awful) but I secretly kept a special place in my heart for it. I had reread it a few years ago (guiltily), and when Midnight Sun released I reread again and finally admitted to myself I really like the books, even if they aren’t great books objectively. It was great to unapologetically have fun while reading them again.
I mean, fanfic got me into books so...
hey that's what happened to me
I was born 1990 and had this with Harry Potter. It was a great escape since my world felt like shit and I didn’t have friends. I started reading books in the fantasy genre because of this. I eventually expanded to order types.
I disliked Twilight, but the idea that she, or any other artist, has to respond to every critique is absurd. Aside from the fact that she couldn't possibly have had the time for that, the notion implies a sense of fan/reader entitlement and a closer relationship between reader and writer than is warranted.
My issue is that the books aren't good, i hate to sound like a jerk but the biggest problem with things today is garbage being excused becasue you like it...
Yeah i occasionally like stupid things too, but i also make note that i wouldn't actually care if i saw less of those things or they were actually done well, in fact i probably would enjoy them better.
But that's not what happens becasue we excuse them and put them out of mind becasue we don't want to feel bad for liking them...and thus people keep making the same problem...
Well you know what happens when you support garbage...it makes money, and publishers, authors and fans want more of it...
there would not be a 50 shades of grey i guess, if not for twilight (i do not believe that at all unless myers thanks she owns the copyright to the relationship dynamic she pilfered and stole from other literature as well)
so that go towards my point.
It kills me becasue this is cheese and garbage that doesn't deserve a chance...there are talented people who never made it but this is what makes it?
what a waste.
I think what most people took issue with was Stephenie's brothers rude and downright childish email to the girl who sent the email/made the petition.
He simply could have ignored and deleted the email as one of thousands he probably received and instead he actually replies, starting off with smugly telling her that he will not be forwarding her letter to Stephenie, nor any other of the '35' emails he'd received that day. He then snidely remarks that he didn't think the petition was well written and passive aggressively remarks how because she made a grammar mistake (she addressed the letter to Stephenie but then later refers to Meyer in third person) and suddenly he doesn't understand who she's talking to. Then he brings up how many reviews he sees praising Twilight, childishly bragging and using the fame as a shield.
He proceeds to answer the criticism with the vague, hand-wavy answers that were being criticized in the first place, and then closes the letter with "And finally, Heather, your letter is not respectful at all. It is libelous in many instances. I would be embarrassed to say such things about someone who I have never met."
I'm not defending the girl who wrote the petition, even if her criticism of the books was valid her demands for Stephenie were definitely entitled, but she was polite and Seth's reply was basically a passive aggressive, well-written tantrum. I mean, accusing her letter of being libelous is a thinly veiled threat.
For some context in case you haven't seen it, here's her letter and his reply in full (I can't find the petition anywhere anymore, but this was years ago and Seth's letter is old news.)
"Seth,
I completely understand that you are not the whipping boy for Stephenie Meyer, but she has given us no address to reach her directly, so sadly, I have few choices- and one of them was to send this to you.
My name is Heather Faust, and I have written a letter to Stephenie and to Little, Brown. As suggested by a number of others on message boards, I posted this letter as a "petition." Today we reached a thousand signatures. (It has only been live for a few days.) We will continue to leave it live and see how it grows.
I feel that it is well written and respectful, and I would hope that you would take a few minutes to read it. If it gets through to Stephenie, well, I'd be thrilled. We are not looking to hurt her, we aren't looking for her to rewrite it... We just want our opinions acknowledged, and we'd like to no longer be referred to as a "vocal minority." We'd also love it if she'd be able to answer our concerns with more than just "it's fiction," "I'm not a biology major" or other brush offs. We don't, of course expect that at all. But just a simple "Yes, I hear you, I'm sorry that you were disappointed" would be enough for us.
Anyway, sorry that you are in the middle of all of this. That must suck for you.
Thanks for your time"
And Seth's reply:
"Heather,
First, let me assure you that I will not forward this email to Stephenie. You say that you are not looking to hurt her, but it would be ignorant to believe that criticism of any kind does not hurt the person to whom it is directed. I didn't even forward any of the 35 emails that I received today telling me (or Stephenie) how much they loved Breaking Dawn, how the series changes their lives, etc.
There are a few other reasons why I would not forward the link to this "petition." (By the way, you have heard that online petitions never generate results, right?). I disagree that it is "well written." Besides the grammar mistakes (which are not hard to overlook), you address the letter to Stephenie, but by the end of the first paragraph you refer to "Meyer" in the third person. I am not sure if you are speaking to her or not. Also, the "signatures" (which are completely invalid) are not just names, but a discussion board. I went to one page and found three people defending Breaking Dawn and saying things like "I am surrounded by self absorbed teenagers or adults that think they can write better books and never do!"
And, although I got very bored and wasn't able to read the entire "petition," I want to try to answer a few of your main points (although I'm sure that Stephenie's answers would be a lot better than mine):
#1 and #2: At the end of Eclipse, Alice specifically says that nobody has ever made the conscious decision to become a vampire, and so none of them had any idea how Bella would handle the entire process.
#3 and #4 (and everything else in your : These books are fiction. They are filled with FICTIONAL characters that Stephenie made up all by herself. In an attempt to keep the books clean and not make young girls think about things that they don't need to think about, no other book mentioned anything about reproductive systems. They are Stephenie's characters, she can decide anything that she wants.
And finally, Heather, your letter is not respectful at all. It is libelous in many instances. I would be embarrassed to say such things about someone who I have never met."
"It kills me becasue this is cheese and garbage that doesn't deserve a chance...there are talented people who never made it but this is what makes it?"
---
There will always be popular trash. Twilight didn't edge out some neglected masterwork. If Meyer had never written it, it would not be replaced by the debut of the next great novelist, but by some equally trashy nonsense. Twilight has myriad sins, but taking the place of some more deserving book isn't one of them.
" it would not be replaced by the debut of the next great novelist, but by some equally trashy nonsense."
It has more to do with, the fact that twilight is trash but is successful and got a shot while people who have probably written far better or had greater talent and potential never got a shot at all.
"It has more to do with, the fact that twilight is trash but is successful and got a shot while people who have probably written far better or had greater talent and potential never got a shot at all."
But isn't that just how life is? Why was there so much more universal anger over Twilight being more popular than better books and not nearly as much anger over other unfair things that genuinely hurt people?
this is still iconic. much love for you, lindsay
Back then, even as a teenage boy with vastly different interests than cheesy vampire romance, I thought the hate train was silly. But it's what happens to every cheesy pop culture sensation, thinking of Justin Bieber, for example. Just let people enjoy things and give valid, constructive criticism when you feel there's a need to. Pointing out that Twilight portrays predatory, abusive behavior as romantic is definitely needed; acting like this is gonna turn all teenage girls into submissive disney princesses is completely exaggerated.
I came back here to say that when I first watched this video i thought she was exaggerating about everyone likes to shit on what teenage girls like. Then I just watched a video where a guy shit on like 3 to 4 webtoon comics that predominantly teenage girls liked FOR 2 HOURS. Just...needlessly overanalyzing and ripping them apart. That was the first time I've seen an analysis video and went "What...why are you taking this so seriously?". He kept harping on the man-candy and problematic romance.
Then I remembered this video and it clicked and fuck you were right.
Oh, I know that video! It was from Clementine.. something.. productions? About Lore Olympus. I also had flashbacks to Twilight debate with his accusations. I even left him a comment saying just that. It's still there, but it's a bit buried under people who think that if somebody is talking in the video on the internet their word is the law. Funny times.
I found this comment-essay-rant I wrote under that video, enjoy.
" Yeah, ok, I was thinking about it for three days and now I have to write it, can't help it, because it smells like a Twilight debate all over again and I thought Lindsey Elis put an end to that, so...
I actually went and read Lore Olympus after your vid, just to see what so gross about it.
All of the webcomics you mentioned are basically pulp fiction: cheap drama and unnecessary plot points designed to keep the damn thing running forever. Modern soap operas. They are pretty much a dumb cheese for females.
But. You say yourself that they are not made for you and you don't get it. This is very much a natural response, you are male, and male brains focus on different things than females. I really advise you to look up this video: ua-cam.com/video/yhwO8u4sZ-8/v-deo.html
I will reference facts from it later.
Let's focus on Lore Olympus for a moment. The tropes and the power dynamic shown there is the ultimate female fantasy and it's present in old works of literature like Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice. This is very much a biological/ instinctual thing that's why it's so popular. Women are attracted to status and older males. Your primary line of offense is that it 'grooms young girls into victims of sex abuse'. Does it though? If we look at fiction this way then I will say every media 'grooms' you into something if you take it as reality. It's kinda scary to think about it.
You have to understand, that if grown, adult woman influenced by works of fiction do stupid decisions on their own accord, then it's pretty much their fault, I'm sorry. It's the same kind of idiocy like jumping off a building believing Red Bull will give you wings. And I think you're barking at the wrong tree here and you yourself being male should have no right to criticize and dictate what girls should read. I brought up Twilight debate, because this feels like a flashback to that: __is not a good role model, __ is 100 years old, no-one should read it, it's not good for girls, etc. Double standards; what about boys media? Killing, guns, emotion suppression, super-hero power fantasy of being the king of the world. Is it ok? Doesn't it 'groom' them into being aggressive sex offenders then? No. I can stretch it as far as to ViDeO GaMeS cAuSe ViOlEnce. This is just fiction and is interesting to different groups for different reasons, and THAT'S OK, as long as you know the boundary between reality and fiction.
Damn, I wrote an entire essay. And I don't even like these comics, I like to read them sometimes in a a way some people like to watch terrible reality shows just to zone out. But I needed to get it out, because videos like this take away people's responsibility to make their own decisions and make them into victims of imaginary threats. It's not against you or whatever, but do some research on these issues before you start criticizing it. Peace, man. I liked the vid. "
@@SilverLion09
I want to correct you on one thing, I think in Cody Ko's video she stated she identifies as a trans girl.
I'm not going to lie, that part made me feel a bit iffy. I felt like a lot of her arguments were valid but that one.. The thing about it, it assumes that teenagers are dumb. That they won't be able to know what's right from wrong.
But the thing is, there's a lot of stories like that on webtoon. As well as movies. Stories about Bad Boys who rarely get punished for their actions and basically comics that romanticize bad behaviour.
Its a bit hard to assume that there wont be people who are going to try that in RL.
@@POP-nm1ix Who's Cody Ko?
@@SilverLion09 A UA-cam who does commentary channels as well as podcasts.
I feel bad for Pattinson, Stewart, and Lautner. All of them really got screwed.
Perhaps their millions in income comforts them.
All of them got catapulted to the public eye. They got name recognition, which is the currency of their industry.
Poor Lautner. He was sexualized by twilight moms as a teenager, and almost no one talks about that. They CGI'd Edward's abs but made him get jacked. The culture surrounding the books was sad, so I'm glad to see it getting better.
@@margaretdiroma5051 he's the only one who didn't make a huge career out of it, I'd say that's his bigger problem.
This video has opened me in a way... I did not deserve all the hate the I got for liking, boy bands, fanfics, romance books... all that hate that i got from people was internalized misogyny, because they hated teenage girls and everything related to us...
I'm glad we're starting to see more and more media talking about teen girls' interests with maturity and fondness, like Turning Red or the Twilight resurrection that happened a couple years ago
I loved turning red! People complaining about Mei’s behavior is kind of funny because that’s literally how 13 year olds at that age act. Sure as an adult some of it is cringy, but teenagers act like this all the time.
I think my temporary disdain for traditional feminine interests came about from a feeling of being put in a box by gender stereotypes. I was sometimes steered away from things I liked because it was not feminine behavior. Eventually, I began to resent the very idea of feminine behavior: it seemed like an excuse for people to tell me what I was not allowed to do. These days I'm more independent, financially and mentally, and I don't think about things that way. I don't mind having feminine interests or behaving feminine, and I also don't have anyone stopping me from pursuing more masculine interests. I think we'd all be better off if we just let kids explore who they are instead of trying to apply these expectations and assigning values to the roles we make up for them.
MsSphinx91 agreeeeeeeeeee!
Honestly, until now I didn’t really think about it this way, but the Twilight-hate really might have something to do with it being a book for teenage girls. I mean, Fast and Furious, or Transformers are equally stupid and flawed, but somehow they don’t get that mass hatred and criticism that Twilight has been getting over the years. Their actors are celebrated, while Kristen Stewart is hated to the bone. Somehow everyone agrees on that FF and Transformers are just pure male fantasy that shouldn’t be taken too seriously, just let the boys turn off their brains a little bit and let them enjoy the boost of testosterone. But the female equivalent of the silly fantasy (shy and insecure teenage girl is able to seduce the sexy, masculine senior guy, who besides being romantic and heroic, is also loyal to her, meanwhile a handful of other sexy man are also fighting for her love) is somehow condemned by everybody.
This video just made me more disappointed in our society ~
The comparison doesn't really work like that. Those movies are ridiculous and dumb but also very, very well put together movies. And, throughout the series they learned to embrace their craziness and are quite tongue-in-cheek. Twilight on the other hand looked like it was shot on a TV budget and doesn't nearly have the same level of self-awareness, something that lindsey also conceded. Transformers is not self-aware and, while the effects are amazing, the movies have real issues as well but it IS pretty widely criticized on the other hand. Maybe not to the degree of twilight but then it's not as big either. And boys' fantasies are being more and more criticized as well, even though that has only been the case in recent years.
Funny Onions Transformers and all eight (!) Fast and Furious movies were not better put together than the twilight saga, especially the later Twilight movies. Twilight also has its tongue in cheek moments, but there are fundamental differences in genre that prevent them from having, or needing, equality in that aspect. And no one personally attacked the Rock, Vin Diesel, Paul Walker, or Shia LeBouf the way that they did all of the leads, and even minor characters, of the Twilight cast. The person whos career suffered the most from the FF and Transformer movies was ironically Megan Fox, whos career suffered because Michael Bay decided to sexualize her character (who’s main character arc was that she was constantly underestimated and denied legitimacy because she was a good looking teenage girl) and thus cemented her as the transformer slutty eye candy when she plays the most (and maybe only) dynamic character in the series
@@singergrl1998 You might think that from a technical perspective Twilight and F&F / Transformers are equal but it's just not true. The budget of twilight part 4 was 110 Mil. USD while transformers 1 was already 140. I'm not saying that that in any way makes them good movies, I prefer a strong plot to good effects. But I am saying, and you say this as well when you point out the different genre affordances, that these franchises just can't be compared straight up and if you do, then it is heavily reductionist to say that the different audience reactions to these franchises is due to the fact that one franchise glorifies dumb boys' fantasies while the other glorifies dumb girls' fantasies. Feminism offers a great lense to view media through, but if that's the only view one can only get a partial picture.
Moving on, Shia LaBeouf is a much bigger target of internet ridicule than Megan Fox. That guy even has his own knowyourmeme entry. Now, of course, that is not because of the transformers movie but because he is just a weird guy. Similarly, Megan Fox's career didn't suffer because of Transformers; she didn't really have a career before that movie. Did Bay do Fox' character justice? No, but her starring in shitty movies and not really outperforming her roles is probably the bigger reason for her slow-going career.
Funny Onions Similarly to the nature of genres, it’s equally difficult to compare the quality of movies by budget alone, especially when one movie has a massive CGI budget. Not to say that Twilight doesn’t use CGI, but every interaction that they have with a transformer requires serious CGI. Use this to compare with FF, which started with a budget of around 40 mil similar to twilight, and had a similar budget trajectory to around 130 mil by the fifth movie (which is how many twilight has, by the way). And Shia LeBouf has experienced ridicule, but as you said it’s because of things he’s done, not the role he played. His character is objectively a selfish and unchanging person, but he didn’t really get much hate until he did weird stuff (Just Do It) outside of that. I disagree with you on the nature of Megan Fox’s career and acting ability, but that’s arguing potential and not something I think would be effective. But you also can’t tell me that the FF cast has suffered from the simplicity, toxic hypermasculine messaging, and general thinness of plot that their movies contain. Vin Diesel, the Rock, and Gal Gadot are massive, and have even worked for Disney in multiple capacities despite being associated with movies with this kind of messaging. Michelle Rodriguez is praises as an icon of the action genre and was in Avatar (I don’t have to tell you how big that movie was). Nathalie Emmanuel was acclaimed for her role in Game of Thrones. I know teenage boys and grown men who cried for a long while after Paul Walker died, and the song in the movie about his death was in the charts for a long time. You go down the cast list of Fast and Furious, and you’ll see many people who didn’t have their career hindered at all by these movies.
@@singergrl1998 Yes, F&F are very popular and they made a lot of money. So did Twilight. I thought our discussion was not about the commercial success or popularity with the fanbase but about negative backlash from non- or former fanbase members and the critical response. Btw, both Kristen Stewart and Robert Pattinson went on to star in other movies successfully, it's not like the backlash ended their careers (like, say, Hayden Christensen after the prequels).
My point is, and I stand by it, that the difference in the response between Twilight and F&F has to do with a lot of things. How we value teenage girls' fantasies comparatively to teenage boys' fantasies is, if at all, a very minor reason. The main reason is just action and reaction: The Twilight hype was insane. It was like the second coming (of Harry Potter). Any time anything garners an incredible amount of attention, especially if it's not exceptionally well done, there will be a lot of hate. You didn't see teenage boys running around with "Team Dom" or "Team The Rock (who knows what his characters' name is)" shirts. So naturally, the critical response was: Dumb action movie, but no harm no foul. With Twilight the very problematic messaging obviously elicited a much stronger response because it seemed to actually have an impact.
And, I am honestly curious, what is the toxic hyper-masculine messages that F&F has? As far as I understand those movies (haven't seen all of them) in the end it's always about "la familia", "brothers for life" stuff like that. Sure, the aesthetics are super stylized, the men are buff and the women are beautiful but is that really important to the story? Wouldn't you say that someone like Michelle Rodriguez' character is a much stronger female character than Bella?
“It felt wonderful. Like being struck by lightning.”
I cackled.
I am always very thankful to Stephanie for giving me a place to escape in my teenage years, I felt like I was an outcast at the time & somewhat related to Bella. I grew up with my mum being OBSESSED with Anne Rice & watched those movies with her (Lestat from QOTD really got my younger self in a fluster), got into the Underworld franchise & then finding a book around a 109 year old vampire who was stuck at the age of 17 & in love with a awkward clumsy 'bland' girl was totally up my ally. I read those books an embarrassing amount of times & watched the movies religiously with my friends & remember being slightly embarrassed because people hated it so much & felt like I had to justify that the books were better than the movies (they are, but the movies aren't THAT terrible). I love that its now 2020, we finally have Midnight Sun & Twilight is 'trending' again.
I now as an adult do acknowledge the problematic parts, like how the Quileute tribe/Indigenous people were/are treated, Edward stalking/watching her in her sleep, how Bella was kinda shamed for wanting to loose her virginity, the whole waiting for marriage part, Jacob not waiting for consent/imprinting on a infant instead of giving him a proper story that he deserved, not writing Midnight Sun always felt like a toddler having a fit. BUT I also remember that the world back then didn't go straight to 'dark/twisted' places when something like watching her sleep was mentioned & can get past that when reading/watching it now. Tbh still waiting for my sparkly emo prince to come whisk me away xoxo
I don’t care what anyone says, that baseball scene was dope
Introduced me to a good song so I kind of liked it lol
I agree. I really liked that baseball bat flip thing Jasper does. There's a behind the scenes gif of him doing other twirling tricks with a bat that's pretty cool. Of course, this series' existence lead to there being Rifftrax commentaries of all the movies, so I'd say it was a net positive in my life, even if the acting and premise are mostly awful. I liked the people who played Alice & Carlisle and that's about it.
Honestly when I read the book, that was the scene that kept me going with the series. I only started hating it because of that bullshit ending. I honestly threw the book across my living room and yelled "Are you f****ing kidding me!?" My dad gave me a very confused look. Those are still my feelings. You can't have crazy shit like Vampires playing baseball and cannibalistic babies and have a nothing ending!
@@DarkAngelEU The movie franchise (I loved it at the time) and this baseball scene in particular are actually what got me into Muse, and I'm probably not the only one, so now 10 years later I am really grateful for that and will even see them live in concert this year! Greetings from a fellow Muse fangirl :)
I have no memory of it, except that one of the girls looked really good in baseball pants
I did like her book "The Host." While it would be a stretch to call it a great book, it did have a surprising bit of depth to it.... None of which was in the film, btw.
Adored the host book but hated the film
The Host was good. Twilight was mainly just fanfiction (which has a bunch of stuff that comes with it like weird tropes, overly used tropes, not great writing) that became really well known. As someone who reads a crap ton of fanfiction, I've seen plenty like that and even worse ones, they're just hidden away in FFnet, aka "the pit." Another reason it got targeted in the first place was that it was so popular (not her fault), so lotsa people read it, and a bunch liked and a bunch hated it.
which is pity bc the film had Saoirse Ronan whom I adore in more of her work
I liked The Host a lot. Not a masterpiece, but I really liked Wanda. A sensitive, gentle, compassionate female protagonist who wins with her emotional strength isn’t something you see a lot these days.
The Host would make a great TV series
As a girl who truly loved these books and also "hung out with guys," and "didn't like girls because they're boring," I jumped on the LOL-screw-twilight bandwagon in college. And looking back... the books truly didn't deserve the vitriol. And The Host was GREAT. Thanks for taking the time to look back and say "guys, did this really matter that much?" Love your channel :)
I recently read all the books, and even as a 20yr old transman, in 2021, I found it cathartic. Being able to explore areas of femininity and relationships and how to describe how you feel about someone was really nice. Midnight sun especially. Even though we all know Edward is kind of a creep, and Bella is your average tomboy edgy bruh girl, I feel like how they communicate their feelings is really helpful and interesting to read.
Yes it is “problematic” but the hate was a lot b/c it had that “every teenage/tween girl likes this boy band so I automatically hate it”
Pretty much. I read the books a couple months before the movies were announced and everyone was either telling me how great of a book it was, or asking if they could read it next because it sounded neat. The movies come out and all of a sudden everyone hates it. Even I was dragged down into the peer pressure of hating Twilight in public, but loving it in secret.
I liked Twilight at one point. I _never_ understood why. Looking back, turns out I was that much of a frigid bitch, too.
Yeah I kind of wish she had gotten more into the "why" do people hate things teenage girls like so much, but that's a deeper and more involved discussion so I get why Lindsay didn't delve into it.
She definitely brings up a point I never considered. As someone who loved vampires and read Anne Rice books as a teen, I hated Twilight for "ruining" something I loved, and I hated it for being so popular when the girls around me had never read the vampire books which I considered superior. With that being my frame of reference, I considered the Twilight hate completely deserved without realizing that my reason for hating Twilight was not why it was receiving so much hate.
Obey Amma PREACH!!!
Ok so I’m just gonna say this: I watched the movies first and judged based on that. Nothing, and absolutely nothing prepared me when I read the books and I kinda fell in love. Stephenie Meyers has a beautiful way of writing that makes even vampire and werewolf cliches seem melancholic. It’s not her fault the movie didn’t incorporate the book properly and Stephenie, if you’re reading this, I’m sorry for judging based on the movies.
I liked that too when I was younger, and, actually, Twilight was my first fantasy teenager novel, so, it was kind of cool to read things besides the school appointments, that didn't need to think deeply and just enjoy the ride. Gratefully, I didn't take any characther as a role model XD
I remember being glad I finally read a book that actually reflected the thoughts I was having as a teenager. And being immensely disappointed by the movies. I still think the books were great.
@@Erikari The books always make me feel like a teen again. She really captured the teenage girl mind. Love the books
I actually watched the movies when I was little and cringed, now I’ve read the books and I’ve started liking the movies, they’re not as cringy to me anymore
i remember watching the movies and then reading the books too. the books were so good that i pulled several all-nighters to finish the series. it was that good.
i remember reading the twilight books just before the last film came out (ish, it was like 2015, the films were definitely still going) and being surrounded by people who did genuinely like them and encouraged me to read them, but when i did i was...underwhelmed, to say the least. i skipped a book and zoned out (full on, i have no memory of that hour and a half and 150 pages but i know it happened) during another and felt like i didn't miss a whole lot. but, and this is the big but, i never /hated/ them, i never felt the need to throw as much hate and disgust at the author as i could muster just because the books didn't fall into the categories that interested me, or because they weren't perfectly written. the fact that there are people out there who did, do (and probably will continue to do) honestly depresses me. like, do you have nothing better to do?? so yeah, all that to say this video makes me happy, seeing this mindset spread slowly through the internet gives me more hope for widespread rationality than it probably should
I have watched this video a couple of times since its release, and now again right after watching Lindsay's videos related to Omegaverse, and boy... 2018 was a happier time.
Seeing other people hate on ready player one is the closest I've come to experiencing what it feels like to be in love
My soul sees your soul, friend
We should make T-shirts.
darkrage6 and Steven Spielberg
Raiden Vakarian most important thing to add: STEVEN F'N SPIELBERG
We all love Lindsay, i know.
I’m just whatever on Twilight but MAN was that bit about teenage girls cathartic. I feel so validated, ten years later.
You and Courtney Enlow have changed so much about how I view media like this.
Thank you!
Twilight just isn’t for me, but I think lampooning people for the stuff they like is incredibly shitty, and it sucks how much we as a society tend to do it to teenage girls, and women in general
every time i hear "i studied monty python, /and not just holy grail/" i instinctively roll my eyes so hard i get a headache
It's like "oh, cool, you watched some British comedy, I hope you had a laugh", but they make it sound like they took out a pen and notepad and tried to figure out what it all means.
Mordaedil It's framed in the context (in the book at least) that it's his life consuming research for the contest that wins you ownership of the world by knowing pop culture things, so it kinda makes sense that he'd write it that way.
That being said, it's a stupid, self obsessed book with a contrived premise, written by a sad, small man, which celebrates everything wrong with pop culture obsession.
Also, it's Life of Brian that's an actual part of Britsh pop-culture, not nerd trivia.
THE BOOK WAS SO BAD AND I HAD TO READ IT FOR SCHOOL BECAUSE OF A FRIEND..I cant forgive her.
You don't study your comedy with a notepad? I guess you're not a real Monty Python fan.
I was that teenager that fell in love with the story, because it was literally my fantasy! two hot guys fighting over me? I don't have to worry about school anymore, because my bf is a vampire and I am going to live forever? Oh his family is rich, so I do not have to work a day in my life, unless I want to?
OF COURSE WE LIKED THE BOOKS! xD and then the movie came out and it was awkward and Edward was not at all like I imagined him, so I got off the hype train and started to obsess about The Vampire Diaries... yeet
I moved on to The Mortal Instruments, which is kind of just as bad. 😂
THIS.
Jiae Hong they are awesome 😎
omg you described it so perfectly!!
@@hongjiae I always considered them way better but they are really similar even though less creepy.
What I also didn't like was vampire diaries but on the other hand I liked the vampire school or something like that.. The main protagonist was zoe redbird, she was incredibly arrogant but I liked the story and her confidence :D anyone knows which book it is?
I loved Twilight. It gave me nostalgia for that new love when you feel like the pain of being apart is almost physical.
I love this review! I recently listened to Lindy West's "Shit, Actually" in which she also critiques Twilight (the movie) and she said something that resonates the same way: "Twilight is a movie for women written by women." In a world where so often movies and other media are for women and designed by men, that was a refreshing perspective like yours. Not saying Meyer doesn't have internalized sexism/misogyny, but that at least she knows what appeals to women in a more realistic way.