My Monster Boyfriend
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- Опубліковано 1 бер 2018
- Some have called The Shape of Water ... gimmicky, shall we say, but the desire to get down and dirty with monsters is (wait for it) a tale as old as time.
Featuring special guest La'Ron Readus: / readus101
Twitter: @thelindsayellis
/ lindsayellis
Sources and further reading:
Davis, Lauren. "Why Is Monster Erotica So Popular Anyway?" Io9. N.p., 31 Mar. 2014. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. io9.gizmodo.com/why-is-monste...
Dee. "Review: The Ancient Magus' Bride - Episode 1." Anime Feminist. N.p., 08 Oct. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.animefeminist.com/review-a...
Lipstein, Andrew. "'Cum For Bigfoot': The Rise, Fall, and Future of Monster Erotica." Vice. N.p., 15 Mar. 2015. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.vice.com/en_us/article/yv...
Stampler, Laura. "Amazon Is at War with Monster Erotica." Time. Time, 23 Dec. 2013. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/23/a...
Valentine, Genevieve. "Tale As Old As Time: The Dark Appeal of 'Beauty And The Beast'."NPR. NPR, 26 Mar. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.npr.org/2017/03/26/515434...
Faircloth, Kelly. "'Beauty and the Beast' Comes From a Long Line of Stories About Women Hooking Up With Animals." Pictorial. Pictorial.jezebel.com, 28 Mar. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. pictorial.jezebel.com/beauty-...
Gonder, Patrick. "Race, Gender and Terror: The Primitive in 1950s Horror Films." University of Colorado Boulder. 02 Feb. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.colorado.edu/gendersarchi...
Donaldson, Kayleigh. "Stupid Sexy Monsters: Why We like Beastly Romances." Syfy. SYFY WIRE, 25 Oct. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.syfy.com/syfywire/stupid-s...
Painter, Ryan. "Empathy for the Other: Guillermo Del Toro Talks 'The Shape of Water'." KUTV. 10 Dec. 2017. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. kutv.com/news/entertainment/em...
Lambie, Ryan. "Guillermo Del Toro Interview: The Shape Of Water, Shame and Perversity." Den of Geek. 13 Feb. 2018. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/gu...
"Interview De Koré Yamazaki (The Ancient Magus Bride)." Manga News. 22 Jan. 2016. Web. 28 Feb. 2018. www.manga-news.com/index.php/...
Rony, Fatimah Tobing. The Third Eye: Race, Cinema, and Ethnographic Spectacle. Durham and London: Duke University Press, 1996.
Wiegman, Robyn. American Anatomies: Theorizing Race and Gender. Durham and London: Duke University Press, 1995.
Tatar, Maria. Beauty and the Beast: Classic Tales about Animal Brides and Grooms from around the World. Penguin Books, 2017.
“Preface.” "Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus" (1831 Ed.), by Mary Shelley, Longman, 1831. - Розваги
WHAT ABOUT BEE MOVIE LINDSAY
youre fucking right
oh yeah
Oh no
I love jazz so f ing much
DO YOU LIKE JAZZ LINDSAY
I especially love that the waifish, disabled, slightly shy woman is actually in charge of her sexuality from the start. She doesn't need the man/monster to teach her the sex. She already has the sex and decides to share with him, actively, without being pursued.
Yes, I loved that. Her comfort with her sexuality
"what bombed-out wine mom wrote this?" [game of thrones theme starts playing]
dude this catched me so off-guard I laughed out loud
I was already actually super curious about it... and then GRRM having written it sealed the deal. I have to watch this thing.
It's one of my favorite series from late Saturday night or whenever it came on when I was a kid. The music and George R.R. pic was just like [BOOM]. I had to replay that chunk to make sure I heard it right.
I really wish there were female equivalents to monsters or just the "ugly guy who still gets the girl because of his personality" trope, but no. Women always have to be beautiful to be loved in media.
There's a lot of bad netflix movies that are like that
closest thing i could think of is hawl's moving castle
@@tesso.6193 or maybe shrek
@@tesso.6193 Very interesting point! I feel conflicted about that one because in a way it seems like irresponsible brat Howl is actually looking for a mother to both wait on and and discipline him and that's what he finds most attractive about Sophie.
No, women can't be loved if they're ugly.
What about the trend in fiction where a woman changes a man who's evil, immature, or dysfunctional into a good, mature, and functional man? How many women in real life are in unhealthy relationships thinking that if they love him enough and put up with his abuse that he'll see the error of his ways? He needs a therapist, not a girlfriend.
Been there done that, sadly.
I literally had first hand experience with this. It didn't end well.
@Elvick if the woman is unstable and a man try to change her helping her I doubt anyone would say he is an abuser. Perhaps a white Knight but not an abuser.
@Elvick No, if a man were in a relationship with a woman who subjected them to emotional abuse, isolated them from friends and family, and held them ransom with threats of violence, they'd also be abused and not an abuser. You're making up a scenario with which to be upset.
@Elvick emphasis on "making up a scenario with which to be upset"
Funny how all things considered the boyfriend in the shape of water is less of a monster than the boyfriend in fifty shades
Do you think Jamie Dornan would have worked as Strickland? Or would that have been too much of a "joke casting"?
Incendere Fifty Shades of Grey wasn't a boyfriend, it was a cultist trying to indoctrinate the girl into his sick fantasies.
If there's anyone who is a Grey analogue in the movie, it would be Strickland. He is a man at the top of a hierarchy, but he is still subject to the whims of superiors. He is domineering, emotionally volatile, and dissatisfied with his position, despite it being a rather desirable one. He used his power and status in order to dominate a woman who isn't his wife. It just so happens Strickland is a fucking creepy asshole instead of the "hero".
Incendere yea that's the point of the story
"Who is the monster and who is the man?"
George RR Martin writing that super sincere, wholesome-sounding beauty and the beast TV show just blows my mind.
Yup he's quite a unique fantasy author
@@Johnlindsey289 he should write a book
@@secretname3897 Hell, he should write a 7 novel series!
Dude is responsible for the Wild Cards as well. You'll understand... if that ever gets turned into TV.
Though tbh it's actually a fairly interesting alternate history experiment with like 30 books or something.
If you've read a few of his books (not just ASOIAF), it wouldn't surprise you. He's very creative fantasy/science-fiction writer, but he can do different genres and it's not the genre what he excels at: he excels at writing about three dimensional characters that are human (not just good or bad, grey) and at making you empathize with most of them, even if you don't like them.
Interestingly enough the fish-man from the Shape of water is pretty anatomically handsome. He does look like someone you'd probably romance in mass effect.
As some people say id like this dynamic to get a gender swap. Like a message that women dont have to look like a marketing add to be attractive taken to its extreme.
He almost resembles Thane from Mass Effect in some ways, which is who I thought of upon first seeing him.
If the genders were reversed people would get mad because the characters telling the protagonist that she's unworthy of love, at how she's being represented.
Helena de Troya 😑
@@helenadetroya9265 aye but if she gets the guy that message is turned on its head
@@helenadetroya9265
Sexism
George R R Martin: Secret Bombed-Out Wine Mom
Explains *so* much.
That explains Cersei's drinking problem at least
Yup
Cersei is his self insert, in his history AU fanific
I always thought of Martin as the luckiest bad writer but good editor working or in his case not working
the shape of water is just grinding nemo
why would you say something so controversial yet so brave
I felt the same way
I mean, you’re not wrong.....
I may have laughed aloud at this, carry on.
Fish banging movie.
I also like how the background for this video includes your own beastly love.
'Oh Starscream. If only societal conventions allowed us to be together but alas, I am but a young woman in this crazy modern world and you're a tyrannical, backstabbing 50 foot transforming F15 Tomcat from space. Society will never allow us to be together.'
You know, for something that is supposed to be written "for" women, romance novels are awfully misogynistic.
Well I'm sure there is a whole conversation to be had around internalized misogyny in relation to romance novels as a genre. In fact, I don't doubt at all that there are videos like that out there.
Lindsay mentioned the early novels of this variety were written to indoctrinate women, so it's that kind of "for."
I've been told they're also very popular among guys in certain situations.
@@sylph8005 What's interesting about the Beauty And The Beast example is that Madame De Beaumont's version was intended to indoctrinate, but Madame De Villeneuve's version (the first version) was actually published for women to read as a simple fantasy story. The arranged marriage aspect showed up in Beaumont's version, as Lindsay explained in the video too. Having read both, Beaumont is pretty heavy-handed about this intention.
@@rainbowbunnycomb what do you mean by that?
I'm a big fan of "girl gets with scary looking monster dude whos beautiful ON THE INSIDE" stories, but I also kind of want the male equivalent? like I swear dating female aliens in mass effect were just like dating women but with blue/purple skin. Or anime monster girls being mostly human looking.
lemme get some human guy falling for a legit beastly monster girl and focuses on the emotional aspect of it, damn???
actually if anyone has any recommendations of normal guy falling for a monster guy I'd be into that too-
Galaxy Quest had it peripherally in the background, which I adored, ha ha.
I want to recommend a title. Too bad it's basically an eroge (erotic game).
Well in mass effect Andromeda you can as a guy romance vetra the Female turian
Anime monster girls.... Monster Musume?
"Ah yes, my fantasy: a beast that negs."
I must have re-watched that 20 times
Just a tiny correction, "nags".
Tamaki742 They had it right the first time. Google negging.
@@UltimateKyuubiFox Yea but doesn't make sense ckntext wise.
@@Tamaki742 Negs makes more sense.
@@Tamaki742 Except it totally does make sense in context...
I think the fundamental flaw with a lot of the arguments against The Shape of Water is the idea that the amphibian man is an animal. You see the word "bestiality" come up a lot in the comment sections - that he's somehow "less than human", even though *the whole point of the film* is that he isn't. That _different_ doesn't mean _lesser,_ the same way being black, or being gay, or being mute doesn't mean "lesser".
The same people calling it bestiality probably have no problem with the idea of banging a mermaid/merman.
lmao yes because fishmen are real actual animals! hahaha what a weird thing to jump to.
And she is actually a fish too
I see your point on this topic. The only thing I feel I can say in response is that I kind of agree that the fishman is technically less than human because of the amphibious features. However, while many people, myself included, wouldn't think to bang him because he isn't fully human, that isn't to say that he not a person. There is a difference between being human and having a sense of humanity, which I feel should be considered when discussing something of this nature.
General public: confused and appalled by The Shape of Water
Me, a furry and a brony: I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
In all seriousness though I've dealt with that exact mentality of people calling me a zoophile when they find out that I'm a furry. I really think that the 'general public' or 'the vast majority' are just not ready for things like that. Their mentality is 50 years behind that of sci-fi fans, furries, bronies etc.
And yes, I think proper sci-fi like Star Trek played a huge role in teaching us that Aliens are people too.
So while the 'general public' is struggling with trivialities like racism and sexism, most sci-fi fans, furries and bronies are on a completely different level and are completely beyond those issues.
"Taken by a Pterodactyl"
Don't mean to kink shame, but while i didn't literally die, a small part of me likely suffered oxygen deprivation from laughter after seeing that.
The author is rather well-known for that sort of book.
I couldn't see it well the first time, had to pause the video to read it, but the next one is "Mounted by Minotaurus", That sounds to me, if not a more unusual concept, a far more hilarious title.
That reminds me of that ironic-makeup video: "You must look like a ptherodactyl, men loooove pterodactyls"
@@apocolototh1948 send link please
@@April_a26 ua-cam.com/video/zJaaLXZwmsU/v-deo.html If the men find out we can shapeshift, they are going to tell the church
The mute character in the shape of water isn't just a heroine. She's isolated by lack of speech and the assumed scars on her neck appear to have been dormant gills all along. She's totally a mermaid. I thought it was implied that unbeknownst to her she's part fish-person and not what she appeared. After all the was found by the canal as an infant.
Andromeda Spark so she’s part fish/mermaid. It means that a human being actually fucked a fish. Hold on I-
Petty & Pretty
THE FBI WANTS TI KNOW YOUR LOCATION
The girl actually isn't mute, but is so shy to the point of muteness.
@@fduranthesee it's stated in the movie she cannot speak due to having her voicebox/neck cut, thus the scars. she is not selectively mute
I thought the same thing. I think it’s supposed to be the little mermaid reversed. Where she starts out human without a voice and becomes a mermaid later.
Megamind is criminally underrated
THANK YOU
I was excited to see that in here too haha
I love megamind. 💚💙
Walter Kolczynski that movie deserves justice
Amen
"Anything that you've heard about novel-length Starscream fanfic is a LIE!" hits different after reading Axiom's End. WE SEE YOU, LINDSAY!
Especially after reading the acknowledgements lmao
LMAO I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS COMMENT!!
what del torro did with shape of water is what mass effect fans have always wanted
Oh my god that didn't even occur to me. QUICK get the production team back together and and reshoot it without the Water part!
Garrus definitely needs to speak though. How else would we know when he's doing calibrations?
And Avatar fans...
Especially since the Asset from the Shape of Water is nearly identical in design to Thane! Garrus and Shepard got to tango in the Citadel DLC, I would have LOVED to see Thane and Shepard ballroom dancing together.
@@noopnoop8383 we got fucked because when ME1 came out a bunch of people (white suburban moms) whinined about the romance and the homosexual sex
They removed it, that's why the character quests, with character that has the same sex as Shepard, always ended up having a disappointing ending, because they simply cut off the romance and didn't have the time to add a replacement
The doomed fish-man assassin with a tragic backstory and an extreme devotion to his religion. I always thought Thane had committed too many sins in his life, killed too many innocent people to survive the story. His ending was the only way to redemption so I found that pretty satisfying.
A better romance option for a renegade Shepard than a paragon one, I thought.
I love this, man. I love how storytelling never ends with a period, but a comma, to be continued for the next evolution of human understanding.
I love both of you!
Ooh, well said!
I love that, I'm going to remember that quote.
The same thing could be said of evolutionary biology itself in nature. What is evolution, indeed, if not something without an end, but instead, something that's continuously optimizing for a similarly amorphous environment?
This is why I suck at writing hard endings, I always like to feel that worlds that stories inhabit still go on. Like there's a place for more to tell and what you think, how you think, you can feel how you want. To me they live on together in the ocean, in the Shape of Water. Also that's where her being mute doesn't matter too much given how poorly sound travels in water. Speaking in sign language would actually be the better way to communicate. So her weakness becomes an asset in the end. @.@ So many feels, I relate to her a lot.
One of these days we're going to have a phone conversation that WON'T end in you abruptly hanging up the phone every time certain "robots in disguise" are brought up.
With that being said, feel free to call me again whenever you want to talk about something else. This was fun.
im streight as a pole but I admit I suddenly jumped in glee hearong someone is gay for Thrall, im such a fucking nerd xD
You can't prove anything. There is no fanfic. I've covered my tracks too well.
But I agree, great job, team.
Redefining "The Whole Plate"
So who came up with "M'baku" senses?
You should share your fics :P
Maybe the reason I have always been attracted to the villain/monster/outcast is because I'm autistic. We are so misrepresented and misunderstood, though some improvement has occurred, I've always felt like an alien forced to act as human. I always feel so connected to the characters that are misunderstood, demonised, mocked, even the "evil" ones. Because a villain doesn't feel like a villain, he does what he believes is best, even if others disagree. I often do the "wrong thing", because I don't understand why it's wrong, it doesn't feel wrong to me, I always wished someone could understand that. I like this new trend of empathy.
Fuckin relatable, you nailed it on the head. Being the social outcast who doesn't understand where all the hatred comes from just because you're existing, then seeing that represented as a monster in media.... it simultaneously makes you feel hopeless and disconnected from humanity, but also deeply connected to the "monster" side of things. It's why I bought Shape of the Water without having seen it first; I knew it was going to be right up my alley.
Lord, it’s like you read my mind lmao! I’d love a monster boy/girlfriend, I feel like I could really be myself with one because they don’t have any expectations of me.
A-fricking-MEN to that, my friend! From my experiences with my autism, two of favorite Disney movies growing up were "Hunchback of Notre Dame" and "Beauty and the Beast", two stories that ultimately deal with a monstrous-looking person with a good heart finding love and acceptance (in the Beast's case, romantic, in Quasimodo's case, platonic I guess). I also love Greek mythology, and probably my favorite Greek character is Medusa, mainly because of how relatable she seems to me -- her monstrous appearance was beyond her control (depending on how you interpret the myth, it was a punishment for something she didn't do) and she was cast out by society, only to be beheaded by Perseus some years later.
This is gonna sound strange, but after watching some clips of Man of Steel, the character of Superman is oddly relatable to me. When he's a kid at school, Superman's senses go into overdrive and he is so overwhelmed by what he sees and hears that he has to hide in a closet -- to a less extreme extent, this is exactly how several autistic people I know (including myself, especially in the past) feel! There's the added bonus of some autistic people calling their condition a "superpower". We may not be able to fly, shoot lasers, or punch people into the sky, but depending on who you are, you can have a slew of gifts non-autistic people couldn't possibly acquire without extreme effort; for instance, I have perfect pitch, the ability to play most kinds of music by ear, and a very strong and photographic memory.
I don't know. I love finding movies or characters that my autism can relate to, and you guys seem to enjoy that too! :D
Same
The truly sad thing is, it is a trend. If empathy and inclusion would have been trendy in the 50's, we would have gotten movies like The Shape of Water. But it wasn't, so we didn't. As soon as empathy stops being trendy, people will stop being so empathetic. It makes me sad, because even though I am not woke (I know, stake me) I do believe that people should be treated as people, not demonized or worshiped.
"What we in the academic world call jealous bitches..." XD That part cracked me up.
What also comes to my mind is the movie "Edward Scissorhands" by Tim Burton.
Had to scroll FAR too long to finally see this mentioned. But at least I don't have to name drop him now. You win the comment thread.
Yes. Sadly he doesn’t get a happy ending.
Beetlejuice?
@@Romanplaystation Thank you so much! 😊☺️
@@simonfrederiksen104 I think the difference with beetlejuice is that doesn't actually have a romantic relationship in the film.
My issue with monster narrative is that it's always "man is the monster and woman is the beauty". And even IF we see monstrous woman, she's still atracctive, still sexy in a very conventional way and still too human on the outside.
Exactly, I'd love to see a story about the opposite!
I'm loving these comments asking for an honest-to-God "Monster Woman, Beauty Man" story.
Hell, you don't even need a monster. A love story between a conventionally attractive man and an "ugly" woman that is not played for laughs would be ground breaking.
+Gertud Bondesson
+Soulcaster
Watch Warcraft the movie a fine step in the right direction of getting rid of the dumb double standard of "only human women can be with nonhumans" as i have nothing against human females with nonhuman people like say i enjoyed Shape of Water, Gargoyles, Wolf Children, the 80s Beauty and the Beast show, Doctor Who's Vastra and Jenny etc. but i dislike inequality as now since 2013 we have human males with cyborg, xeno, furry and mutant females at last in mainstream outside internet artworks (especially Hatton Slayen's awesome and amazing artworks of human males romancing furry and xeno and cyborg and mutant women) and fanfiction like say Regular Show's Margaret's parents, Bojack Horseman's Kyle and Charolette, Mass Effect, Skyrim (you can marry an Argonian female a human guy can which is cool), Voltron Defender (Hunk and Shay) and all that at last.
Can an argument be made that the relegated role for women to be monsters is the witch, in the traditional sense of it. By the videos definition of the societal OTHER and maybe even the visual "ugliness" and especially the power over the hero. The contrast of the beautiful woman and the terrifying witch puts forward the need for women to comply. So monster maybe?
I really wish you'd mentioned disability when talking about people coded as monsters/monsters coded as humans. It's explicit in Hunchback and Phantom, implicit in a lot more stories.
Phantom?
@@sylph8005 he's physically disfigured, and I can't remember but possibly crippled as well?
I find it really annoying that most physically disabled characters in musical theatre are old creepy men who live in towers and pine over a hot girl
Not surprising. Just shows that even the super-woke conveniently forget about the disabled people all the time.
Seriously, try naming 5 disabled/disfigured/crippled characters in recent popular media who play a big role in the story, are not complete psycho villains, and are not from Game of Thrones? I only have the dude from How To Train Your Dragon (who lost a leg)
@@actually_curious4773 ill add the dude from Fullmetal alchemist. I guess you couuud say Bucky from Captain America but not really. Finn from Adventure Time could have been it but the creators were cowards? I remember he lost his hand then got it back, but I didn't see it till the end.
Zuko has a bad burning that makes him look hot... I think it counts? And there's Dr. Strange too.
So I guess if you think about it there's some, even as sparsely as it is; but I can't think of a single woman (I know there are women with prosthetics in Fullmetal, but I haven't seen it yet).
"Wait he ate your neighbour's cat?" [Me, out loud] "He felt bad about it!!"
"HE. ATE. HIS. CAT"
"Hey, he apologized. And btw: holding a grudge makes you fat, hon."
I definitely felt the same as del Torro when I was a kid. I watched monster movies and felt really sad when they all ganged up and killed the monster at the end. I remember telling my parents I felt sorry for the monster because he was just sort of minding his own business until these random people showed up. My dad never had anything to say to me but my mother told me "You're not wrong". LoL x_x
i felt the same too, and i'd like to add that i was terrified by the idea that the monster must be annihilated simply because it exists, that its only fault is existing. i could relate to it a little bit as a child, because i was bullied in kindergarten for being "weird". i would just be "minding my own business" and kids would randomly come up to me and pick a fight. this was 90s romania, i was not in any oppressed minority group, i was the most average little plain jane you can imagine. kids just found me "weird" for no explainable reason and that somehow gave them a right to bully me. they didn't do any truly horrible things to me, but they seemed to be bothered by my mere existence. it still blows my mind to this day.
Yes, me too. This video helped articulate why I love The Shape Of Water so well
Same. I remember watching King Kong with my grandma when I was a kid and by the end we were like "why do they have to kill him? He was fine in his island until you brought him to the city you morons!!".
felt bad for King kong as a kid and ever since i watched that film ive always liked monsters in media more than humans because nomrally theyre minding their own busness or they turn violent because humans pushed them into that directions
Same! :)
Important detail I feel is worth mentioning:
The original director for the 1930s Frankenstein movie was, himself, a gay man. Something that was an open secret in Hollywood at the time.
also as an lgbt+ woman I can attest that attraction to monsters (or Aliens cough cough Garrus Vakarian cough) does come, in part, from this idea of having a romantic partner that is "other" than the predetermined role in what you, as a girl, are "allowed" to have. So I can only agree with your assessment here.
Thank you for remembering about the director of the 30s Frankenstein. I made an essay on that film in college, and I chose that work in particular because I was so interested in the story of Frankenstein's monster. I was touched not only by the film itself, but also by the process and behind the scenes of how it was made. James Whale (and Boris, the actor for the monster) put so much effort and heart into their work and you can feel it in the movie. Boris would usually by approached by children, telling him that they loved him and that he was not a monster. That is so sweet and heartbreaking.
"I'm woke. I'm the wokest."
- Lindsay Ellis, 2018
I was just looking the comments for this comment lol
Part of it is that while the transformative power of love is great and all, I don’t want to have to fix a man. Having someone understand my needs without me having to fight and scratch and claw for basic consideration and affection? That is what I get from movie monsters in the modern day. They instinctively understand and love the main female lead, and that sounds nice. They also often put her needs above being with her, going the route of self sacrifice with the understanding that they may still not get the girl. It’s rare in a modern move that the monster sees the female leas as a sexy lamp to be acquired, while the main human male lead usually gives off that kind of vibe. I’m not sure it that is intentional or a product of men writing movies for women and misunderstanding the female prospective in a modern world.
"They also often put her needs above being with her, going the route of self sacrifice with the understanding that they may still not get the girl"
Well there are real life versions of those men - called "cucks". Or the eternal friendzoned "nice guy" :D
@@LegioXXI How interesting is it that when men are pointed out as behaving in a way that does not objectify a woman we treat them as "lesser". As though there is something wrong with them, that they are losers.
Just because a person has a romantic or sexual interest in someone does not mean that other person is obligated to return those feelings. You, random person from the internet, will set yourself up for failure if you think this way. If you are only doing nice things because it will "get you the girl" then you don't actually care about her, you just care about getting what you want. It's tough to be rejected but it comes with the territory when looking for a partner and there are places you can go where you make that search obvious so that others who are also interested can meet up with you. Treating women as though they are just things waiting for an aggressive man to come claim her is what one would call a "jerk", or an "asshole". If you want something that you can own and cannot think for itself then buy yourself a lamp.
@dragongirl89115 👏👏👏
@@LegioXXIAnd "nice guy" was supposed to be a term for someone who was always described by other men as "nice" and "friendly" despite the fact that he objectified and invaded the boundaries of the women around him. Funny that people are trying to reverse that definition to put down men who are actually nice and safe for women to be around. Kind of... manipulative... ....
I'd love to hear your opinion on why we never see the opposite (monster looking woman and good looking man) and how this affects our perceptions of society? or if there is a "monster woman" they always need to look sexy and still humanized. Have women been convinced that they should be willing to date uglier but nicer men as a result of these movies?
It's not like the male beasts are deformed to the point of no longer resembling a somewhat attractive masculine form. They're sexy and still humanized too.
We're too busy making fun of furries. Can't COMPLETELY blame them for that
I also think it's because women MUST be pretty and possibly pure, at all times, and must be represented as such, and the few female monsters as still dehumanized because they don't adapt to the female roles... you know, like Medusa, Aracne, all the women who are cursed because they are too proud or don't want a man in their lives?
Which is a shame because every straight/bi man I know wants a monster woman to crush their skulls when are you getting on it Hollywood
I think it's bc of the trope of the male protagonist ALWAYS being this great looking dude with a great bod. It's existed for so long that the typical subversion was that of an ugly looking "monster" actually getting the girl instead. And there are plenty of girl fantasy movies and novels about an unattractive (usually fat/chubby) girls getting the hot guy of their dreams. Women can be just as superficial as men so...
@@moviemanreviews5577 Did you... watch the video? The whole monster-romance genre is 99.99% horrifying-looking-and-noncommunicative (ie the message that you need do nothing in order to deserve love) man, and charming, smart, pure, beautiful-in-every-sense-of-the-word woman. I don't mean to insult you, but you really can't argue that the playing field is equal here.
if Guillermo Del Toro keeps making films of classic monsters and B-movie creatures ending up happy with the heroines I would not mind it, actually I would be very happy, something like the ROMANTIC MONSTERS CINEMATIC UNIVERSE.
Vicente Ortega Rubilar oh my god, yes! I love cinematic universes, but almost everybody is trying to do Marvel’s. How about a series of tangentially connected romance movies? I would be so down. For guys too. Let a dude date a girl that could crush with out trying. Subvert stereotypes that make women monstrous. What would be a movie idea?
Would their version of The Avengers be a gangbang?
That is the best idea ever! I want it to be real!!
And now i wonder how his adaptation of Naoki Urasawa's Monster would have turned out, mostly since the titular "Monster" is the opposite of those present here.
It would beat Universal’s Dark Universe any day
Loves the 80's Beauty and the Beast, finds out George R.R. Martin wrote it....Damn I need to rebinge it.
I've actively avoided rewatching it as an adult, convinced it couldn't possibly actually be any good and that it was just my child's mind not knowing any better. Hearing it had Linda Hamilton, Ron Perlman AND GRRM attached makes me wonder.
The final season of it was a mess though...somehow that feels familiar.
@@havcola6983 It was good! One of the better shows on TV at the time, from my perspective. I can't be bothered to look up exactly when it aired, but if it was 80s into 90s I would have been a teenager/young adult.
Linda never looked better than in that series and T2
@@jbvader721 I liked the last season of BATB.
Granted, I also liked the last season of GOT.
It's probably been forgotten by most, but the best early monster boyfriend story is the Disney series Gargoyles. Goliath and Elisa Maza spend about 80 episodes resisting the fact that they are falling in love, only to spend the final episodes of the second season coming to grips with the fact that they must be together no matter what public opinion says about Goliath's race/species. The relationship doesn't really get explored in the 3rd season, but that is mostly due to budget cuts, network hopping, and the show runner and entire writers room getting fired.
Very sweet but i like Demona and Macbeth in fanart better
Very minor correction: it's not about 80 episodes, it's approx. 62 episodes.
My Monster Boyfriend is also the name of a WONDERFUL porn comic anthology of people and their monster boyfriends. Its published by Iron Circus Comics. Enjoy👌🏾
You do the Lord's work.
I... may or may not have bought it when I first started planning this a few months ago. You know. For research.
Lindsay Ellis you are more forthcoming than expected
+Lindsay Ellis not even a little surprised. now, what was that about a novel-length starscream fanfic?
Lindsay Ellis Ah! So good! My favorite stories are probably the harpy one and the winged shed man.
Fun fact: Del Toro was also producing Megamind
Really? lmao no wonder why that movie was so good
"ay where the white women at!?"
there is literally no part of Blazing Saddles that is not absolutely amazing.
im just gonna give my two cents and say that as a lesbian i loved the shape of water
I cried openly and for at least 10 minutes trying to get my feelings right, I didn't understand why I related with every goddamm character (except the villain).
Two years later I realize that I also like girls. The surprise.
@@valerianaranjocruz25 when you're told, subtly - even silently - every day that there is only one right way to love and be loved, and all other ways are wrong and unacceptable, a movie like this hits home and hits hard.
The shape of water is amazing and it makes me so emotional.
Plus it has Sally Hawkins who is just 🥰
I dispute that Shelley wanted the monster vanquished. She is, in fact, entirely ambiguous about whether or not the monster's cruelty is a result of its creation, or of Victor's cruelty to it.
Noah Blank I think she was just using Frankenstein to allude to The Duality that is often associated with monsters, and probably choosing to omit the ending because you're right Frankenstein is some what more of a cautionary Tale, but as far as the video goes it presents an example of a misunderstood monster stigmatized by Society
I simply use the language she used. She seems to put The Creature into the "fear the monster" category, a place he *definitely* doesn't belong in.
It's really a fascinating novel isn't it? I actually got the impression by the end of the story that Victor himself wanted to be vanquished, at least unconsciously. His consistent naiveté about the danger he and all of his relations were in suggests it to me. He is both hyper aware of the danger and utterly careless in defending against it (leaving his wife alone the room, etc.).
Actually, I'm quite happy you sparked this thought off. I was really annoyed about this aspect of the story in that Victor was so consistently incompetent (despite being a genius intellect). However, if I take that as him unconsciously feeling he deserves retribution for his sins of creating the monster -- that is more satisfying.
Without a doubt. I have the original 1818 version, so I don't know about differences between it and the 1831 version, but in the 1818 version, Victor quite clearly believes that he deserves what's coming to him. Although again, it's still unclear whether or not the mistake was creating The Creature, or abandoning it.
I've come to see Frankenstein as a sort of feminist parable about reproduction. Victor's crime isn't in stealing the role of creator from God, but rather, from woman, or at least, not involving women in the act. While he has the physical means of doing it, he lacks the supposedly feminine nurturing quality needed to see past the creature's physical appearance (keep in mind this was written at a time when raising children was woman's work, and within a stuffy British upper class society in which children were lucky to receive attention from even their mother -as opposed to a nanny - let alone their father). Had the creature been nurtured, it could have become a genius, or at least in spite of its appearance a functioning member of society. However, it had the sort of face that "only a mother could love." The story is also an example of how coding changes depending on the environment and the adaption. The relationship between Frankenstien and Dr Praetorius in The Bride of Frankenstein (1935) is clearly coded homosexuality (another reproductive act without female involvement), undertones that became outright overtones with the release of Rocky Horror.
"The Birth of a Nation" actually played a surprisingly instrumental role in the reorganization of the KKK, which up til then had been slowly dying off. The damn movie caused a lot of drama historically, and we likely would have been better off without it.
Nope. It's incredibly important in film history as it created many of the camera and storytelling techniques used today. It honestly doesn't matter if it was racist or not.
@@nowhereman6019 I wasn't aware that "The Birth of a Nation" introduced new and groundbreaking directing techniques, so, my mistake. However, I do feel as though film could have eventually worked its way towards those revelations and techniques without relying on a display of gross racism.
@@jackaxed Jesus Christ, when will people like you realize that history isn't a kind of story that "would have been better" in some way if things were changed? Just accept that people in the past had different morals, goals and means than people today
@@lukasd.4389 To some extent, I think you're right, and I regret making that comment. However, I still resent that that is how we got those revolutionary film techniques.
@@jackaxed Things wouldn't have been so bad if Wilson hadn't shown it in the White House.
Lol i always knew George RR Martin was a "bombed out, wine mom."
'Monsters are the patron saints of our blissful imperfections.'
- Guillermo del Toro
Shrek...How did we all forget Shrek...
Marycruz Villaseñor shrek is a total Chad though
Fiona is actually an Ogre, so it's just ugly marrying ugly.
MrParkerman6 said like somebody who hasn’t learned Shreks message, external beauty is not important, internal beauty is.
we need a patreon reward of being able to read that starscream fanfiction
Vyse .Vee YASSSS
NOW IM CURIOUS. I once read this Starscream fanfic that is basically a saga and it ships him with this girl Alexis, loosely based on the Alexis from TF Armada.
LINDSAY.
ANSWER ME LINDSAY.
WAS THAT YOU?
@@Tamaki742 what site was it on? For research purposes...
@@ellabee4820 I remember it was on Fanfiction.net. It even used to have a wiki, but it seems like it's all gone??? Like I can't find any trace of it at all.
It's cheekylittlelass on fanfiction.net. I never really got around to reading them properly, just had them bookmarked in my browser. The description you gave struck out.
Don't think these are written by Lindsay though.
Being otaku trash, I've spent a lot of time at conventions, around fujoshi (women who obsess over real, implied, or imagined boy on boy love stories, particularly yaoi/soft shonen stories). A question I repeatedly ask is "why are you like this" and the most enlightened answer I've gotten is that there are very few opportunities for heterosexual women to safely explore their sexuality IRL. Most often it opens them up to violence, being publicly shamed, losing face in patriarchal society, more violence, and the most shocking side effect of either being blamed, silenced, or not believed when violence does occur. Even in heterosexual fantasy and fiction, the power dynamic between men and women usually carries over from the culture that it's written by and for, and does not offer safety.
So....the repression of sexuality spills out in weird, creative ways. Like putting laundry detergent in a dishwasher.
Boy on boy love stories, girl on sexy monster love stories, girl on sexy demon/vampire/occultish thing love stories, anthropomorphic love stories, are the result of the creative mind trying to soothe the angry hormones. Fantasy creates a virtual safe space for a repressed sexuality to be explored.
"Most often it opens them up to violence, being publicly shamed, losing face in patriarchal society, more violence, and the most shocking side effect of either being blamed, silenced, or not believed when violence does occur." True. God if I had a dollar for every bad take by some douche claiming that 50 Shades being popular means that all women secretly want to be abused...
Well said, Jen
Most yaoi is still annoying to me. I guess it's because it's meant to be watched by het women, because gay men can't really relate to yaoi at all.
Once upon a time at a Japanese pop culture class in college I was assigned an essay/presentation on BL (Boys' Love)/yaoi. It's been a few years and there's a few more reasons why it emerged, but part of it was the idea of sameness and sexlessness - men having sex without fearing pregnancy, abortion. Two men feeling more "equal" to the observer than in media potraying heteronormative relationships - most heterosexual sex in media geared towards the male gaze, not the female. And there's also the sense of "otherness," which is why hetereosexual sex from the above didn't feel ideal to some women and why yaoi's targeted for women instead of gay men. Not having men's bodies so having more freedom to explore sex without having as much of the sense of things feeling too jarringly unrealistic.
Although, coming from a gay man, I notice that lesbians in media are still more accepted, and the women needing a sexual outlet collectively create a safe community for that expression
For me, looking for media that represents my interests, Yaoi obviously caught my eye, but I've noticed early on that it's not made for me, it's made for women who just dont get it, or really want to get it, it's by girls for girls and the watch ability for the group its representing isnt really considered I dont think
and I imagine its probably how lesbian women feel about seeing the lesbian stuff in heterosexual animes targeted at men
I mean, the expression and exploration is fine, I totally get needing that outlet
But it's kinda frustrating when the largest consumers and producers of media that seems like you can relate to due to its niche topic is made by and for a larger audience that doesnt really care about you or you relating to the media
Another excellent video! So glad you mentioned the '80s show Beauty and the Beast, I love it to death. It is UNABASHEDLY sincere and romantic to a point that is rarely seen.
I kept waiting for you to mention The Seven Year Itch, in which the main character and the Girl (played by Marilyn Monroe) go to see Creature from the Black Lagoon. She mentions having felt sorry for the Creature, and the man jokingly asks if she wanted him to get the girl, and she gives this somewhat unconvincing "no..." right before the famous scene in which she stands over a subway grill and her skirt blows up around her in the wind.
Also, in regards to Invasion of the Body Snatchers, there's an ongoing debate as to whether it represents fear of communism taking over America, or McCarthyism doing so (or if it's just a SciFi movie and we're all reading too much into it.)
Yup the relationship between Vincent and Catherine is quite sweet yet i kind of like human male X nonhuman female better like in Alien Nation, Rachel and Deckard in Blade Runner, Kyle and Charolette on Bojack Horseman, Margot's parents on Regular Show, Cheetah and Batman on Justice League and others
The funny thing is, Beauty and the Beast was actually inspired by the real life couple Petrus and Catherine Gonsalvus. He suffered from hypertrichosis, meaning his entire body was covered in hair. Hence he (although being an intelligent, educated and cultured man) was considered only partially human.
Yet from all one can tell (the evidence is scarce) his wife loved him.
So the original Beauty and the Beast didn't have the "transformation into a handsome prince" either.
Pretty sure that played into it too. The marriage between Petrus and Catherine was an arranged one, neither of them had any say in it (him being a "beast", and her being a woman).
And more than that, it's a fictional tale still, and thus has many influences.
In most cases where a real-life story is adapted into art (and more so when it is only used as inspiration for fiction), you'll see larger motives and statements about certain phenomena incorporated into them.
Art is supposed to communicate messages after all.
Okay, this doesn't have anything to do with the video, but I'm just curious if anyone else had this: In _The Shape of Water,_ when the movie goes into a black and white dance sequence, did anybody else want The Creature to have a cool white suit? I mean, Eliza gets this badass dress that looks really cool in the scene, but whys the creature naked? Just a little thing, but come on, give my man a suit Del Torro
We want a suit! Dapper as fuck!
For the same reason he's in shadow through the whole scene. It's really more about Eliza and how she feels than the two of them, I think.
You have no f###### idea how on que I was with that thought in the movie. I wanted it so bad that it would have actually made the movie for me.
note4note oh, wow I didn't think about it like that
Probably to avoid that "the monster turns human as a result of human love" trope Lindsey discussed. Putting a suit on him would make him more human, but she loves him as the fish man he is and doesn't see the need to change him.
"i still pay to see phantom of the opera on broadway.......... depending on who's the phantom" the Most relatable thing lindsay ellis has ever said honestly
The "novel-length Starscream fanfic" line hits different now that we've all read 'Axiom's End'.
Every time I see a dude kill Medusa and be called a "hero" for it, I want to scratch the director's eyes out
@Tesla-Effect What was it?
@Valley Girl Medusa was cursed to be so ugly she turned all who looked at her into stone because she, because of her beauty, was raped in the temple of Athena which angered the goddess. She was later killed because of this curse she had put upon her.
Reading her as just a monster is pretty shit. She wasn't just a monster, she was a woman punished for inciting lust in men who couldn't control themselves. She's a tragic figure.
I read a fascinating take on Medusa recently, in which Athena was sympathetic to Medusa being raped, but could not blame Poseidon, one of her fellow figures of power within Olympus. So, she was forced to make Medusa ugly as 'punishment', which in fact served to shelter Medusa, allowing her to be left mostly alone, and protected from men. Of course, men would see it as a curse to be ugly, as something to be vanquished.
@@SomeDumbDuck Homegirl should have just put on some shades.
@@Sophia-cx8fg It's...kind of a weak attempt at reframing an ancient myth to be less terrible, but it sorta works. Kudos to whoever thought of that originally, I guess.
Personally, I'd rewrite the myth. Either have Medusa do something which merits punishment (e.g, have her be the one raping someone else) or...I dunno, have the transformation accomplish some task. Maybe have it be a punishment from Poseidon for rejecting him, or have Athena transform her _before_ Poseidon rapes her to drive him off, or _something_ halfway-reasonable.
See also the sudden popularity of Link/Sidon.
2017 was at the very least a good year for fishmen.
Best Comment.
marinaliteyears Agree!
I was hoping someone would bring that up!
For fishmen and fishfuckers
-like myself-
What's that?
It's really funny to think that Ampersand and the plot of Axiom's End was well developed in her mind at the time she made this video
Yeah, I just finished Axiom's End and I kept thinking about this video while reading it.
Mainstream lesbian monster romance WHEN?
Doctor Who has that
I think the old vampire story Carmilla has lesbians. But vampires are kinda boring monsters.
Doctor Who, Steven Universe, She-Ra... They're few but they are nice to watch. I especially love Madame Vastra and Jenny from Doctor Who: "Good evening, I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time and this is my wife". :)
Well, there is a canon lesbian romance in My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.
In one of the final episodes there is a bit in the Ponyville paper about Bon Bon and Lyra Heartstrings wedding.
In the very final episode it's revealed that Applejack and Rainbow Dash are living together. It's left ambiguous about if they are together romantically.
Not sure if that counts but....
"Kobayashi's Dragon Maid" perhaps?
My Monster Boyfriend
Wait are you talking about 50 Shades
Borgin & Burkes Antiques Shop Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I honestly thought that's what she was going to talk about!
ho-*HO!*
Borgin & Burkes Antiques Shop LMFAO
Well, yes, she is
I was both expecting and not expecting this to be about the Shape of Water. With a title like My Monster Boyfriend, it could have been any movie
I havnt seen this movie but isnt that fish man abe sapien from Hell Boy?
Or anime
Raiken Xion No it's not. Guillermo Del Toro stated thatthe creature in the movie is not abe sapien
+Raven Grey Looks like him though, i think it should be abe sapien so im just going to believe that it is. They shouldnt make things look so much like other things then! I mean Vin Diesel should have played Kojak in the modern Tv series NOT Ving Rhames! And Liam Neeson should have played Max Payne in that movie NOT Mark Walhberg!
If Gillermo wanted a fish man he should have gone for a totally different design, doesnt matter if he liked that design so much! Yeh? Okay well he should have simply made this movie a spin-off to Hell Boy where abe sapien falls in love with this woman and gets the romance he deserved cause he did loose that other pale, stone looking woman and she was quite pretty too i will admit that.
These are all perfectly valid arguments you know! -__-
Raiken Xion Sorry for the late reply. At first when I saw the shape of the water, I thought the creature is Abe Sapien then I read the news about the movie has nothing to do with Abe. I'm believe that the creature in the movie is not Abe Sapien.
A few years ago, Guilermo Del Toro said that he want to make pinochio stop motion animated film. I wonder why he didn't make
it. Instead he made the shape of water
"And to be clear, that shit is my jam." - proceeds to write a monster boyfriend trilogy
finished axioms end and immediately had to come back here .. god bless ampersand i think he'd treat me right
...huh. Now you're making me think about Monsters vs Aliens. I didn't realise how unique that story is based on a title like that.
I find Monsters Vs Aliens to be woefully under-discussed. It's certainly not like...top tier Dreamworks but I always really enjoyed it!
I think it's hilarious.
I dig all the old monster movie references and even a couple of old alien movies! The monster characters are really fun too.
I loved that movie in high school. I didnt realize until recently that people didnt like it.
Monsters vs Aliens is a film I disliked the first time I saw it but on repeat viewings, it's actually way better than I initially thought.
I loved The Shape of Water, and I didn't have an issue with the romance but I was shocked to see, in my Theatre, how many girls were affected by it. Openly sobbing at the end of the film -- it was beautiful in a way -- but it perplexed me, then saddened me, that I didn't get the same emotional response from it.
nothing wrong with human X xeno, human x furry, human x cyborg and human X mutant romance you know but i prefer the reverse where the human is male. But still the ending is quite good and a nice moral as i'm glad she didn't physically change her entire race/appearance to be just like the xeno as she got a new way to breath, i think it's how Avatar by James Cameron should had ended with Jake getting nanintes in his body plus his body/legs fixed and Neytiri would accept him for who he is instead of having to Avatard him.
As a straight girl who is very much into big monster bf for quite a while, I have to say that this video is a whole new perspective. I never related monsters to minority groups, my thoughts were always "big, sad monster guy needs love and hugs... also, fangs are kinda hot." The whole point of the monster bf to me, it's not that I like him inspite of his appearance, his appearance is one of the reasons why I like him! One could argue that i may relate to their suffering in a way or another for being a woman, but my whole life, I never felt lesser than for being one. Nobody never treated me any different. I actually receive a lot more of praise growing up than the males around me. I think that also fits with the stereotype of what females and males are often attracted to on average. For females is usually broad, strong and tall, and for males is usually curvy, sweet and petite. That's why there aren't many lady monsters love stories. Monsters just don't usually fit in the Male attraction stereotype.
With that said, the points of the video are 100% valid, and also shows why so many minority groups are driven to those stories, I just wanted to share a different perspective.
George RR Martin' isn't the wine mom we needed... but the one we deserved...
Thank you for pointing out the continual portrayal of white women as pure and needing saving. As a woman of colour, I find that in my daily life it is hard to deal with just how much we are made into these 'strong,' women who are 'never vulnerable' and even worse, seeing visible white women ignore the power in being seen as humane and vulnerable and then trying to say that there is a sisterhood with women of colour. Also thanks for being one of the critics to point out the issue with BoN (believe it our not many film channels keep praising it for its form????).
I personally think that aspect isn't as strong as she made it up to be. In most cases it's more about the "feminine ideal" of flawless beauty being protected by strong and capable men. Sure, dark skin was and is seen as incompatible with flawless beauty by some people/cultures (for both racist and non-racist reasons), but when that's not the case you can have all types of (pretty) women as damsels - the real question is if that's actually a good thing or if it isn't better to bury that trope completely.
can we admit we have privilege AND THEN be your sisters please?
@@maleahlock I remember my aunt (who's white, so is my mom and I) adopted a african american baby. She sent a photo of him to my mom who loved the photo and kid so much she put it in her business that she does from home for her to look at.
She had to remove it a few weeks later because so many customers left her or were pissed at the photo. This is in New England. It's a world where a lot of people judge just because of the color of the skin, and it's sad to see.
@@Alias_Anybody what do you mean non racist reasons?? how is someone assessing darker skin as worse anything but racism
@@susannam3923
Classism. Same ethnicity, but working outside makes you darker.
Also Gargoyles-a very well done love story between Goliath and Elisa. Rather than wishing they were either the same through Gargoyle or human, they accept what they are and just roll with and the potential pain that might come with the relationship they would have. I'm surprised you didn't mention that one. Especially since it's a SLOW building love story-with lots of subtle glances between the two, we don't even get a kiss until the last episode. Plus they just fit together really well as a couple....And his utter devotion to her is just amazing. They really clicked on like an almost spiritual relationship level....Like they really were meant for each other. BUT even though he has this protective instinct, it was clear in the show she could handle herself in MULTIPLE dangerous situations with and without his help. Love it. They're total equals.
Elisa interestingly enough is also an excellent example of a well written Native American character.
TheMKatStudio I have heard Gargoyles was really, really good and yet completely ignored. Can't wait to give it a go!
I freaking LOVE Elisa Maza's character she is just STUNNING. And for being Native American AND African American in the NINETIES they did NOT give her ANY of the worst sort of stereotypes which is great. She's so badass.
......You're the worst for putting THAT image in my head hahaha
Gargoyles, great show and great couple
Anybody checking out this video after reading Linsay's book, "Axiom's End"?
Glitter Acid Yes! Yes! Yes!
Ocean man take me by the hand lead me to the land that you understand
George Martin is actually still writing the Beauty and the Beast trope into his work... Seriously, the ASOIAF books feature references to Beauty and the Beast quite clearly in the relationships of Sansa and the Hound, in which the dynamic played straight but with a "Beast" who cannot become a pretty rich boy in the end... something Sansa seemingly might come to actually appreciate) and Jaime and Brienne, in which the roles are reversed in very interesting ways. Jaime is handsome but behaves monstrously, and Brienne is pure of heart but extremely unattractive. Jaime begins to become a better man after meeting Brienne, and Brienne is actually, mockingly, referred to as "the Beauty". Both of these relationships are written with great sincerity and there's definitely strong promotion of the transformative powers of empathy and compassion... Maybe hard to believe given the grimdark, nihilistic tone of the show... but you can't judge ASOIAF by Game of Thrones.
Interesting. My favorite character is Dany. She has something like that in the first book. She gets betrothed to an ugle scary guy, Khal Drogo. It takes a while for them to warm up to each other and fall in love. Khal Drogo can be thought of as beastly man. He has a culture very different from the main people of Westeros. Khal Drogo is also a horse man. He doesn't literally turn into a horse, although that would be awesome. He does ride horses a lot. Maybe that is a hint of beastliness.Maybe Dany getting out of the marriage with three newborn dragons shows that she has atoned with beasts.
The Guillermo quote nearly made me cry.
I love him so fucking much. :')
I thought that the guy who adapted Hellboy would recognize demons and demonization as value-neutral terms, though.
I thought I'm being weird for being into interspecies romance. Loving the monster has always been my thing. Does anyone else feel the same?
No your not alone even though i like human male X furry/mutant/cyborg/alien/magical creature person female much more like in Hattonslayden's arts, Bojack Horseman, Regular Show, Alien nation, Hepzibah and Corsair in Marvel comics to all teh way to a friend of mine doing a story series where Minerva Mink has an affair with a human man
@@Johnlindsey289 It's often about women falling in love with furry/mutant/cyborg/alien/magical creature. But i would love to see a human male loving out with a ''monster'' female
@@oow9253
Bojack Horseman, Regular Show, Voltron Legendary Defender, Hattonslayden's artworks etc. has human male X furry/mutant/alien/magical creature person love
@@Johnlindsey289 Really? I'll check it out
@@oow9253
Yes Bojack Horseman and Regular Show have human men who have furry wives and HattonSlayden does amazing beautiful sci-fi fantasy artworks of human men loving furry, alien and magical creature folk women
Axiom’s End just got a whole lot of context.
That you managed to make a video essay on this without mentioning furries once deserves props.
I know it's a bit of a straw-man - but one could argue that the furry fandom exists to provide a society for would be lonely people? ^^
Okay, so I just want to clarify- I'm not knocking furries. Like... 85% of my friends are furries and if I'm being perfectly honest, I frequently dabble in the fandom. This was just a lame joke and I'm not judging you for your interests and hobbies as long as nobody's getting hurt. :)
Nothing wrong with furries! i see furries, Xenos, mutants and cyborgs as different races in stories outside of humans and humans having relationships with them can be a nice thing as furries, xenos, mutants and cyborgs are people who are and look different even human males with female furries, xenos, mutants and cyborgs in media nowadays outside the internet artworks and fanfictions like Regular Show, Bojack Horseman, Voltron Defender, Warcraft the movie etc.
*sees Starscream in the background* Is this *your* monster boyfriend Linsday? 😘
I didn't find his name in the notes, so I'm going to mention it here- the awesome black-and-white illustrations in the Frankenstein section were drawn by the late great Bernie Wrightson.
22:53 yes such classic romance novels such as "Scoundrels Captive","Most Eagerly Yours", and "My Billionaire Triceratops Craves Gay Ass".
It took me a minute to realize that her ringtone is Monster by Lady Gaga. That's amazing
I couldn't place it! Thanks for sharing, it was gonna bother me so much! 😂
I knew about the sex, i didn't know about the bi-color elegant fifties dancing.
I want to see it even more now.
I feel like Myazaki has been twisting the beauty and the beast story for his whole career
*spoilers for Axiom’s End*
It’s so fun to come back to this video after finishing your amazing book, especially after learning how important The Shape of Water was to the final product! 😜🥰
Lindsay gives me hope.
Same. :)
Awsamazing Eden yes
Lindsay is love, Lindsay is life. Her approach to criticism in general has helped my performance in college immensely.
ALL HAIL LINDSAY
Awsamazing Eden and feelings that are weird and confusing.
She is a national treasure.
I've been thinking of writing a version of Beauty and the Beast where Beauty is a guy and the beast is an insectoid mantis woman but I am a lazy and not Guillermo Del Toro, so pffft forget about it.
Batzarro Go for it it sounds really good
+Batzarro
sounds interesting and is the insectoid mantis woman sexy like in Hatton Slayden's artworks?
DoN't LeT yOuR dReAmS bE dReAms
JuSt Do It
Okay but I would love to read that lol
does she kill and eat beauty?
Buffy the Vampire Slayer and then Angel had these themes allllll over them. And it was glorious. So was your video!
I laughed my ass of when Del Toro said in the interview to one of our Russian magazines that his idea about dark doesn't have to be bad & loving a monster was new, when I was a teen in 2007-2012 I read a whole lot of Russian young adult fantasy, written mostly by women and boy was there a lot of monster boyfriends. Usually of course mostly humanlike, but still a demon/dragon/vampire/evil wizard/tree guardian/were-something kinda thing and those monsters are misunderstood and oppressed for just what they are and traditionally noble characters like knights and princes are shown as rotten people hiding their vile nature behind their beauty.
One of my favorites even includes arrange marriage, of sorts, in it the evil wizard king demands from a regular king to give him one of his daughters as a wife and agrees to take the ugliest one no one would ever marry anyway so her father is ok with that and decides to make a joint wedding evil wizard & the ugly princess and noble knight & beautiful princess, but beautiful princess hates her arranged fiancee for being dumb brute so much that even evil wizard is better so she switches places with her sister and is married to the wizard. They spent their first night bickering cause wizard don't want her and she finds that offending. but later wizard notices that she is smart and curious and they bond over playing chess and reading books of all things and start falling for each over.
Do you know if that was ever released in English? That book sounds SO GOOD
@@laurahackstadt7111unfortunately no, and it's a pity. it's called "О бедном Кощее замолвите слово", printed in 2009. The author, Olga Gromyko, is popular in Russia among teens and young adults and printed in Russian, Polish and Czech, but not English. I actually found an old article about her calling her Advocate for the magical minorities.
old.mirf.ru/Articles/art2451.htm
I find it amusing how chill ye olde were willing to just straight up say "yo, this is indoctrination."
i think the meaning of the word has changed. originally it was more like "moral teaching".
Vandell we still talk about “education” today in what I think are largely the same terms. It’s entertainment coded to teach children certain behaviours. We don’t tend to use fear as much and the coded behaviour is much better, but I think it’s smart not to hide the fact that, fundamentally, we are trying to influence children’s behaviour and their view of the world.
I find it amusing to wonder if many people even know what "doctrine" is!
(ETA: I suspect that many confuse this with socialization)
+Zoe Lyons That's interesting! I just found it amusing considering the context of today.
Brandon Roberts - I love how the same whiners who see parental guidance as an insidious plot tend to be the ones who complain about people's lack of morals and responsibility. Double standards are a hell of a drug.
I feel the need to bring Mass Effect into this conversation for REASONS. Because I feel like a lot of this explains the fanbase fascination with the character Garrus, and his romance with the female version of Shepard. But it goes deeper in some areas. For male-attracted women in particular I feel like there's this appeal in a romance with a creature that is so fundamentally different from a human that they have none of the cultural bias that we've come to expect. Garrus, in the second and third games, doesn't get with Shepard because he finds her hot, he literally says that he's never considered having sex with a human woman before, but he becomes a romantic interest because of his deep respect for her as a person. "There's no one in the universe I respect more than you". And he doesn't even know how to properly compliment a human woman because they look SO different from his own species, so there's never a feeling that he's reducing her to her body, because her body isn't what made him want to take a chance on the relationship. I feel like that's what's very refreshing about some of the newer Beauty and the Beast stories, the monsters involved are often SO inhuman that you can trust their sincerity in a way that is more difficult with men in real life.
The monster loves you, and he may not even think you're attractive, he just loves you for you, which is exactly why the concept is so very romanticized. There's other aspects of course, like what Lindsay touched on, as well as things like the fantasy of teaching someone how to make you feel good, how to make you happy, and learning to please them in return without the expectation that it won't be reciprocated. I feel like the exploration of it appeals to a lot of people because then the experience is more intimate, more personal. It's not just that you're into each other, it's that you're actively learning about each other as you go.
Whew, this got long. My point is I'm a huge sucker for these sorts of unconventional romances.
Anyone thinking Axiom's End is going to fit in this genre?
"And so Starscream lifted one of his large, strong null rays.... I am your new leader, he cried as he slowly caressed...."
WHY 👏 MUST 👏 YOU👏ALWAYS👏UPLOAD👏WHEN👏I👏HAVE👏TOO👏MUCH👏HOMEWORK
Honestly though, this is a video I needed and I adore your content. Thank you for giving me a reason to take a break and rejuvenate a little 💖 Love your work and all you do!!
ThatOneDisnerd 96
Maybe you just have a lot of homework and it can't be helped 😂
HOW...ABOUT...YOU...WAIT...UNTIL...YOU'VE...FINISHED...YOUR...HOMEWORK...BEFORE...WATCHING...? NO...ONE...CARES...ABOUT...YOUR...POOR...LIFE...CHOICES...!
ThatOneDisnerd 96 I emphasis I mean not with this channel but other UA-camrs. I like to listen to Lindsey at work.
I understand this video was about how we regard the monster, but I think it's worth mentioning that when GdT speaks of "the other" in that interview he's not only speaking of the fish dude, he's talking about Eliza, about her shy gay neighbour and even her co-worker (Octavia Spencer's character). All of them are 'the other' ( physical disability, sexual orientation, skin color), but to fish guy none of it matters, they're his saviours, and Eliza is his soulmate even if she's not a fish girl. Maybe he finds her as mysterious and as unconventionally beautiful as she finds him.
Eliza is very unlike tradicional heroines, in that she's not particularly beautiful (not as Belle, or either of the ladies in Phantom, King Kong or Creature ftBL), nor is she virginal or passive. She... err... 'spends a lot of time with her thoughts', she cusses, she picks up recently severed body parts with no hesitation and she does whatever it takes to help her bf. I think her character is also a little different from what we expect these women who love monsters to be. She's not expecting a saviour and she has no great ambition in life which the appearance of fish guy would end up triggering. She gets nothing from him but love, and that's pretty cool because that's all she wants from life anyway. She doesn't need a castle, a fortune or a career and she doesn't get any of that when they meet. They just get each other. In love stories, especially those written as fables or guilty pleasures, that should be enough.
Do you think the fishman is an alien?
Johnlindsey289 I think fish guy is an elemental, a creature of nature whose "powers" are just natural characteristics of his particular species, although his species is no longer abundant in our reality. Not exactly magical but with a physiology and abilities beyond our current understanding. Our modern culture is remarkably backwards where it comes to accepting alternative explanations and undocumented ancient knowledge. We should most definitely trust the scientific approach, but still leave room for something more so we don't make the mistake of assuming we know everything.
So you don't think he's an alien being who came thousands of years ago to earth and became a god to the amazon jungles?
That would be a pretty good backstory (enough for another movie :D) but I'm fairly persuaded he's like the creatures you get in fables.
I can never look at egg timers the same way again. Thanks, Eliza.
Cmon! You're honestly gonna blue ball me
"LOSING TO A BIRD"
in ALL those Notre Dame references???
I now want a lesbian Medusa movie
BROOO
Hi Lindsay, could you please do a video how Disability is represented in the media? I have a disability and feel like we are represented as something to be inspired by ( inspiration porn) or feel sorry for. Also people who do not have a disability play disabled people in movies. I feel like people should try to caste actors with disabilities and that we should be apart of the diversity conservation that Hollywood is having right now.
FuzzzWuzzz
See that is what I mean. To me disability is not the adversity I am overcoming. I am overcoming the way society and other people view my disability( as a bad thing) when I view it as something that is apart of me
The video "The Wonder of Miscasting: The Misrepresentation of Disfigurement and Disability" might be for you. It's not from Lindsay but it touches on a lot of the topics you brought up. Sorry if you have already seen it.
HikariMichi42
Never seen that. Who is that by?
The Princess and the Scrivener.
Hollywood pays lip service to diversity, but the ratios indicate that it still is overwhelmingly white, straight male.
Aren’t we all monsters, though? *On the inside?*
I'm a eldritch abomination on the inside.
How was your day today, Patrick?
*D E E P*
Ruthiel Alastor It was okay. *On the outside.*
Shut up please
I love these videos from you, Lindsey. Your work always makes me think of things in a light that I had not seen before :)
One idea that always sprung to my mind in regards to the, "Beauty killing the beast," portrayal as an example of how despite our evolution into modern humans, in a way there are still blurred lines between us and the beast, especially in regards to Kong given the similarities in behavior and ancestry between human and ape.
I think one of the reasons I have loved Frankenstein as a novel since I was a child was because of exactly how sympathetic the creature is and how his own suffering drove him to violent acts. He experienced nothing but hatred and revulsion from others, and while that doesn't excuse his own crimes, it provides a clear understanding of how he felt driven to such deeds. I guess you could say that I also tend to sympathize with the creature and most monsters with a sympathetic side to them.
When it comes to, "The Shape of Water," I feel that it bridged the gap and blurred the lines between human and animal/monster in a unique way, further showing that in spirit, thought, and feeling, the "monster" is again, not so different from us.
As someone who has and still does face difficulty and lack of acceptance (I have some disabilities of the physical and psychological, nothing major, but it does affect how I may seem to others) I grew up relating more to the monster than the man. It's a huge leap in many ways, but going back to the creature, I could relate to the way people would typically bully me or avoid me on sight when I was a kid, even during a time before I was diagnosed and even I didn't know what was "wrong" with me.
Don't get me wrong, I love who I am when it comes to my character as a person and in some ways I feel growing up the way I did only further enabled me to be compassionate and even protective of other people, I have to admit I do still bare the scars of my experiences so to speak. All that being said, I think that the main reason that some people feel for and even relate strongly to the monsters isn't just because we see ourselves in them, but I think some feel that way also because part of us are still much the same in regards to how we operate on the base level. We may not be as above other species as we might think, nor are monsters all that more monstrous than we are in turn. (If that makes any sense lol)
Anyway, if you happen to run across this comment one day, I apologize for the veritable dissertation and I hope that all goes well for you in all your endeavors. Thank you again for your thoughts and for your quality content. ^_^
i understand Axiom's End A LOT better now
Came to this video hoping to see this exact comment! XD
Robot Chicken on The CW’s Beauty and the Beast: “This seems like a really liveable affliction!”
It's a good story when done right but... uh... can we have a gender-reversed version once in a while? I can't really think of any maybe other than Penelope but that doesn't really count as a "Beauty and the Beast" story given the only problem she had was having a pig's nose. I don't know, I wonder why there aren't more of them. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in that kind of thing.
There is, see Warcraft the movie being a step in the right direction with human male X Xeno female even a xeno female who does not look human yet the human lover loves her for she is.
could not agree more!!!!
I mostly figure that the whole reason why Beauty and the Beast stories are gender-aligned the way they are is because, historically, women have been in more vulnerable positions with less power than men, so romantic prospects and/or marriages had greater potential to do harm to them. Men have, traditionally, had more freedom and choice, and thus, didn't need to worry about how their marriage prospects could damage them.
Splice did that until it got weird and rapey.
Magic: the Gathering (admittedly not the pinnacle of story-telling) had a decent gender-bent version for the stories following the Ixalan and Rivals of Ixalan expansions. Those were some of their better recent stories too.
I just..love this edit...as I am starting to love the channel. Thanks!
Madame Ellis just casually throwing up a chuck tingle cover with examples of “mainstream romance novels” QUEEN