It was the factory heads and little after market development in the 70s. All of them I drove and maintained were better than the 302, but there were no parts for either to go racing. The 351 got dropped from cars, and that was it for it. The 302 lived on in cars and got developed in the 80s. I'd bet many young don't even know what a 351W is. If what I read was accurate back in the 80s the block design Ernie Elliot used in his Cup motors was the Windsor rather than the Cleveland. They simply used Cleveland style heads on it. The Cleveland was a bad bottom end oiler so they used the Windsor.
It’s very good, and far more favourable for external dimensions in comparison to the Cleveland. But the Cleveland will always eat the Windsor. But to be fair, the Cleveland is pretty much the greatest small block of them all. LS inclusive. The LS is good, but the Cleveland has always been great. It just took head designers and technology to catch up with how great it is.
@@nathan2483 I like the Cleveland but its suffers from the same oiling and cooling flaws as the 400 and 351m and is very heavy. But with the right small touches that can be helped. There is a bolt on Cleveland head now that's made for the 351w block. No more need to drill the water ports to match the 351w intakes.
Rickey Driskill they’ve been out for ages here in Australia. Actually, nearly every aftermarket Cleveland head has been built to use as a clevor head. The oiling issues have solutions for them, and really aren’t that bad. As for the cooling. Australian summers are absolutely vicious, and I’ve seen very few actually fail due to overheating. You just need to build an appropriate cooling system. I’m certainly not knocking the Windsor, it’s a great engine. In actual fact, I’m building one right now. But the head design isn’t great. Canted valve heads will always trump them. The only issues with Windsor’s are essentially the same that the sbc face. They can be worked around, but it was never really designed as a out and out performance engine, whereas, the Cleveland was built to go small block racing (primarily nascar).
There initially was no effort put into the tall deck Windsor, since there was the Cleveland. The "Cleve" had an issue with its exhaust port, racers just cut it off and welded on a square tube to get rid of the dogleg. Now you can just buy an aftermarket head and flow all day. The ability of the 4" block to take stroke out to 427 cid blows the Chevy small block out of the water--you're only going to do that with the siamesed 400, and they ain't cheap no mo'.
The narrator failed to mention that the 102mm throttle body flows around 1450 cfm’s, and the four barrel Edelbrock carburetor was actually an four barrel throttle body that flowed 1000 cfm’s, so therefore the most likely culprit in lost of horsepower would be the lost in over 400 cfm’s in flow.
I had a 92 extended cab short box 4x4 . I did a full restoration with 279,000 miles on the clock. My next step was to do a motor and transmission build. Turn her into a 428 stroker, fully built, and a super charger! But I lost time due to my job! God I wish I’d kept it!!! I know I could have finished the perfect 1000 hp sleeper 92!!! May my dreams rest in peace
Had to go page by page on the MSD site but found it - "Ford 351W Sync Plug MSD's cam sync plugs install in place of a traditional distributor to drive the oil pump and provide a cam sync signal when running a Holley EFI, or other aftermarket sequential EFI system requiring a cam sync signal. PART# 85061"
@@xmo552 427 in a stock block is a no go for me its too much bore and puts alot of lateral load on the cylinder walls. 393 is ok and has always been known as the poor mans stroker. You just buy the crank and 302 pistons and re use your 351w rods. It still requires some machining after its all said and done you are not really saving that much over a traditional 408. I like the 408 because bigger is better lol and the kits can be bought for less than 1200 bucks these days. Of course you can spend 3500 on a kit as well just depends on quality of parts .
@@xmo552 my 64 fairlane has 408w , 77 bronco has a 408 and my 79 turbo fox is a 408 with holley efi . The saleen mustang i have is a 5.0 supercharged with factory efi.
interesting the carb sucked wind against the 90 degree EFI...the venturis in the carb cool off the intake charge, tho a dyno already cools the air going into an engine, so that's probably where the effect wasn't seen.
Cool video, kinda. But common, lets here some specifics.. You gave us some cam numbers, but are those numbers @.50? advertised? Whats the LSA (lobe separation angle)? How much timing did the engine have? Was this on pump gas? What kind of air/fuel ratio was the test, throughout the band... And who in there right mind uses an Eldelbrock carburetor on a dyno? Was there no Holleys to be had there? I like the idea of your channel, and want to see more stuff like this, but common, show some specifics.
"The carburetor choked down the engine" Well what do you expect when they ran a sorry Edelbrock carb instead or a Holley based carb. Put a 750-950 Holley type carb on it and I guarantee it out hp both efi.
Your problem with the carb setup was that you used an Edelbrock carb. Edelbrock is a great company and their carbs are fine for cruising around but if you want big HP numbers with a carb, everybody knows you have to use a Holley or a carb like QF that uses the Holley design.
save16thave A Holley carb is useless on a 4wheel drive and the 4x4 kit from Holley is the same cause it improves nothing. What you should say is Holley is better on flat perfectly smooth surfaces and on dyno’s. Edelbrock might not flow as good as a Holley but a Edelbrock will run perfectly after you throw it up in the air and let it land in a mud hole then water hose it off and you are good to go 👍🏻 If you turn a Holley upside down before you install it then you just knocked the floats off. I’ll take my Edelbrock any day cause I know it can win the race and get me home.
@@matthewjohnson2495 Yeah well this is a dyno test for max power and clearly that motor is not intended for a 4x4. That motor needs a 950 Holley and save the Eddy carb for your Grandads 327 Impala.
@@matthewjohnson2495 maybe you should learn carburetors. My 74 Bronco with a 351 Windsor a 700 Holly has never missed a beat not the slightest stumble ever. I have run Edelbrock on a couple of four by fours but they're such a pain in the ass to get right. EFI has zero problems unless you let the tank get to a quarter
Is this supposed to be an informative video? No offense to the narrator but this clearly isnt his area of expertise. Why not use someone who knows at least a little bit about engine building?
two bolt mains very reliable around 500 hp and below, 550 hp and above I'd rather see a newer dart or ford 4 bolt main to keep it stable. Just saying for my money I'd spend the extra grand for 4 bolts
@@doctorhonda111 Correct doc in a perfect world and no detonation. Just saying being penny wise and pound foolish to sell product? As a professional builder why not start with a better foundation and let the hobbyists test the limits of the junk yard blocks.
@@mmike76: Good point made. From 1969 to 1997, Fords Windsor engine, with the exception of the cam support cracking, has done for 532 pounds all up what the Clevelands heavier engine failed to do between 1970 to 1982: Survive the ardour of winter truck freeze thaw cycles. Probably as bad as 700 hp in Winston Cup races. The challange Henry Ford made in 1969 was to do what the FE and FT engines blocks could without another 150 pounds of iron. To make the same power an 8.2 inch 302 Boss or 9.2 deck 351C or 9.5 inch deck 351W 4V made stock, with less iron. 290 hp gross at 4600 rpm for most of those Fall 1969 issue engines. Ford has always been about building an automobile down to a cost. The 9.469 and 9.500 inch deck Windsor 351 is stronger than the 9.206 inch Cleveland 351 block wise, and 37 pounds lighter apples for apples. The alloy intake Boss 351 weighed in at 569 pounds, the stock alloy intake 4V 351W, about 532 pounds. The two bolt blocks on all Clevelands and Windsor 351's will start crank walking only when detonation frets the thrust bearings; it gets worse if you use a manual transmission with high clutch loads, or a savage trans brake automatic. Yet when made in the various plants in Candada or Ohio or South America, the Windsor carries another 30 thou more effective iron in every bulkhead and cylinderwall, yet still being lighter than the shallow deck 9.2 inch Clevelands. It's the Cleveland and 335 series Integrated cam cover and the rudimentary and simplified Bill Gay casting process that added extra bulkhead width and then tried to pare back the weight gains by shell moulded thinwall cylinder walls down to 130 thou. At the same time, when SB Chevy 010 and Lima Big Block and FT Ford plants were casting there block cylinder walls at 180 thou at the thrust faces, and its the huge loss in cylinderwall support that can kill the Cleveland. Even destroked stock Australian XE or pillow block 302 Clevelands with 6.03 inch rods and 3 inch strokes split cylinder walls in 188 hp sedan cars. Thats was the NASCAR 700 hp block from 1978 to 1985. Any 351W block has proven latent superiority in priority oiling, lightness and crank durability. Fords Cleveland block is inferior to the Windsor block, but both are able to handle NASCAR and endurance racing to well over 700 hp. The cost of a Windsor race block with thicker walls is about 2500 dollars. The cost of magna Flux ingredients and Mondello style Humboldt vibrating tabling a junkyard Windsor block to stress relieve it is about 500 dollars. The two bolt main bearing caps will handle most loads. Ford didn't need to upgrade the main bearing bolt diameter, two bolt blocks just need proper pegging to stop cap and crank walk. Lastly, Fords SVO made zero balance forged cranks to replace 28 Ounce Detroit Unbalance cast iron cranks in the 80s. They are fully countewighed like a twist forged 312 Y block crank, and still lighter than a 28 ounce unbalance crank. US Ford engine builders know how to increase component strength without automtaically moving to a 2.5 K block.
@@deanstevenson6527 Does metallurgy of the 1960’s 1970 even begin to compare with the metallurgy of 2021. Is my point. Unless constrained by rules I’d spend my money on the stout bottom end of a fresh casting to finish. To say 1970 351 Windsor’s will run 700 hp all day isn’t what most of these yahoo’s mean. 700hp for 10 sec’s 50 times. Isn’t 700 hp all day, like marine, and/or road race/drifting applications. Just saying. Not that guy’s can’t build fast stuff with old blocks and cast crankshafts If I’m going to hire a professional builder I don’t want to tie one arm behind his back.
@@mmike76 There's loads of history of the 351w OEM blocks being plenty stout enough for 700 hp. You just need to uncover that history, and not be so closed minded with all this juvenile online block splitting lore of late.
@@jccoram8121 You're talking about using 1980's hacks. In the 1990's the EFI racing community used Cleveland style ports in Windsor architecture heads. Look up SVO C3 heads.
Love me some Windsor.🤘
Nice comparison. The 351W is Fords best all around engine and most under used.
It was the factory heads and little after market development in the 70s. All of them I drove and maintained were better than the 302, but there were no parts for either to go racing. The 351 got dropped from cars, and that was it for it. The 302 lived on in cars and got developed in the 80s. I'd bet many young don't even know what a 351W is. If what I read was accurate back in the 80s the block design Ernie Elliot used in his Cup motors was the Windsor rather than the Cleveland. They simply used Cleveland style heads on it. The Cleveland was a bad bottom end oiler so they used the Windsor.
It’s very good, and far more favourable for external dimensions in comparison to the Cleveland. But the Cleveland will always eat the Windsor. But to be fair, the Cleveland is pretty much the greatest small block of them all. LS inclusive. The LS is good, but the Cleveland has always been great. It just took head designers and technology to catch up with how great it is.
@@nathan2483 I like the Cleveland but its suffers from the same oiling and cooling flaws as the 400 and 351m and is very heavy. But with the right small touches that can be helped. There is a bolt on Cleveland head now that's made for the 351w block. No more need to drill the water ports to match the 351w intakes.
Rickey Driskill they’ve been out for ages here in Australia. Actually, nearly every aftermarket Cleveland head has been built to use as a clevor head. The oiling issues have solutions for them, and really aren’t that bad. As for the cooling. Australian summers are absolutely vicious, and I’ve seen very few actually fail due to overheating. You just need to build an appropriate cooling system. I’m certainly not knocking the Windsor, it’s a great engine. In actual fact, I’m building one right now. But the head design isn’t great. Canted valve heads will always trump them. The only issues with Windsor’s are essentially the same that the sbc face. They can be worked around, but it was never really designed as a out and out performance engine, whereas, the Cleveland was built to go small block racing (primarily nascar).
There initially was no effort put into the tall deck Windsor, since there was the Cleveland. The "Cleve" had an issue with its exhaust port, racers just cut it off and welded on a square tube to get rid of the dogleg. Now you can just buy an aftermarket head and flow all day. The ability of the 4" block to take stroke out to 427 cid blows the Chevy small block out of the water--you're only going to do that with the siamesed 400, and they ain't cheap no mo'.
Nice to see a Ford build.
how am I just now finding this video I'll be calling as soon as I'm ready for a rebuild
Glad to hear I don’t have go out of state to buy an engine Gardena is only 30 min away from me
Save $10k and build it yourself..lol
Good video , good to see some more results with the Holley Hi ram , it looks tidy, might work better with Boost pressure .
hood clearance might be a problem
I was wondering why Coast’s website fell apart
I’m a Mopar fan and would like to see a la small block build with comparison numbers.
Thank you for the great video
The original Green oil for me is Schaeffers Synthetic since the 1800's in St Louis MO
Did I miss it , did they not test largest cam and the high rise manifold , if not why
The narrator failed to mention that the 102mm throttle body flows around 1450 cfm’s, and the four barrel Edelbrock carburetor was actually an four barrel throttle body that flowed 1000 cfm’s, so therefore the most likely culprit in lost of horsepower would be the lost in over 400 cfm’s in flow.
What would be the outcome using the afr225 head?
Why not run the hi ram with the largest cam.?
It wasn't a carburetor it was a throttle body for the injection system. The video is elsewhere on UA-cam.
icetech6 the video I saw was actually coast’s.
You should have shown all the tabular results!!
Seems to me everything resulted in exactly what you’d expect. I just wonder how a slightly smaller TB would have performed.
That's what it was when he said carburetor. It was actually a 4150 tb which flows less than a 102mm. Hence loss of power
I had a 92 extended cab short box 4x4 . I did a full restoration with 279,000 miles on the clock. My next step was to do a motor and transmission build. Turn her into a 428 stroker, fully built, and a super charger! But I lost time due to my job! God I wish I’d kept it!!! I know I could have finished the perfect 1000 hp sleeper 92!!! May my dreams rest in peace
What kind of ignition is that?
Had to go page by page on the MSD site but found it - "Ford 351W Sync Plug
MSD's cam sync plugs install in place of a traditional distributor to drive the oil pump and provide a cam sync signal when running a Holley EFI, or other aftermarket sequential EFI system requiring a cam sync signal.
PART# 85061"
I own three 9.5 decks all 408w
Got a 351 roller i wana build a 408 out of for a gt 40 kit car. Sure would like to have that intake fit. It would be a beast. 2400 lb car.
I'm considering a 351 swap into my 88. Why did you chose 408" vs 393 or 427 vs XXX?
@@xmo552 427 in a stock block is a no go for me its too much bore and puts alot of lateral load on the cylinder walls. 393 is ok and has always been known as the poor mans stroker. You just buy the crank and 302 pistons and re use your 351w rods. It still requires some machining after its all said and done you are not really saving that much over a traditional 408. I like the 408 because bigger is better lol and the kits can be bought for less than 1200 bucks these days. Of course you can spend 3500 on a kit as well just depends on quality of parts .
@@boostedsaleen6146
Thanks I appreciate your response and insight. Is one of your 3 in that fox body of yours? Is it dressed in "5.0 efi" ?
@@xmo552 my 64 fairlane has 408w , 77 bronco has a 408 and my 79 turbo fox is a 408 with holley efi . The saleen mustang i have is a 5.0 supercharged with factory efi.
interesting the carb sucked wind against the 90 degree EFI...the venturis in the carb cool off the intake charge, tho a dyno already cools the air going into an engine, so that's probably where the effect wasn't seen.
Tell me where Gardenia is
Super Victor Jr.?
A big OOPS, it is Gardena, that is Gar-deen-a, not gardenia gar-deen-ya.
He said it too many times 😡🤓
Cool video, kinda. But common, lets here some specifics.. You gave us some cam numbers, but are those numbers @.50? advertised? Whats the LSA (lobe separation angle)? How much timing did the engine have? Was this on pump gas? What kind of air/fuel ratio was the test, throughout the band... And who in there right mind uses an Eldelbrock carburetor on a dyno? Was there no Holleys to be had there? I like the idea of your channel, and want to see more stuff like this, but common, show some specifics.
@@EngineBuilder I seen the video. Wasnt it a carb style fuel injection that lost horsepower and not an actual carburetor?
Got a 427ci Windsor under my hood with a Procharger F1A-94...ultimate streetcar
there is theory says
carb intake is better than EFI intake
in Velocity
"The carburetor choked down the engine" Well what do you expect when they ran a sorry Edelbrock carb instead or a Holley based carb. Put a 750-950 Holley type carb on it and I guarantee it out hp both efi.
yeah, a 950 cfm is probably the ticket
Long live ASCOT raceway
I would like to see the difference of a Holley 750 DB Pumper carb compaired to the Edelbrock 750
It actually wasn't a carb. The video is on youtube
The high ram lends it self to the rpm range hot to 7800 would of been nice to see if you would taken the set ups at least to 7500 rpm
The strongest small bock
#MarinovRacing#1
they should use the 351w more often. the 302 is so weak and breaks easily if you try and give it boost.
oooO an expert opinion, guess we should all just ditch anything under the sun besides a damn LS motor , right Mr. Expert?
Nah, my stock 302 rotating assembly swallowing 15 lbs of boost for the past 2-3 years says otherwise.
Your problem with the carb setup was that you used an Edelbrock carb. Edelbrock is a great company and their carbs are fine for cruising around but if you want big HP numbers with a carb, everybody knows you have to use a Holley or a carb like QF that uses the Holley design.
save16thave A Holley carb is useless on a 4wheel drive and the 4x4 kit from Holley is the same cause it improves nothing.
What you should say is Holley is better on flat perfectly smooth surfaces and on dyno’s.
Edelbrock might not flow as good as a Holley but a Edelbrock will run perfectly after you throw it up in the air and let it land in a mud hole then water hose it off and you are good to go 👍🏻
If you turn a Holley upside down before you install it then you just knocked the floats off.
I’ll take my Edelbrock any day cause I know it can win the race and get me home.
@@matthewjohnson2495 Yeah well this is a dyno test for max power and clearly that motor is not intended for a 4x4. That motor needs a 950 Holley and save the Eddy carb for your Grandads 327 Impala.
save16thave i agree why the fuck would you use a Brock carb over a Holley or quick fuel? 😒 that carb is barely a performance carb
@@matthewjohnson2495 maybe you should learn carburetors. My 74 Bronco with a 351 Windsor a 700 Holly has never missed a beat not the slightest stumble ever. I have run Edelbrock on a couple of four by fours but they're such a pain in the ass to get right. EFI has zero problems unless you let the tank get to a quarter
You better take heed to this video--tought by Christ himself !
Is this supposed to be an informative video? No offense to the narrator but this clearly isnt his area of expertise. Why not use someone who knows at least a little bit about engine building?
I think they are in the business of selling engines not telling you all the specs so you can build your own.
racetech pistons are awesome.
two bolt mains very reliable around 500 hp and below, 550 hp and above I'd rather see a newer dart or ford 4 bolt main to keep it stable. Just saying for my money I'd spend the extra grand for 4 bolts
Michael Hoffman stock 351 blocks can do 700 all day
@@doctorhonda111 Correct doc in a perfect world and no detonation. Just saying being penny wise and pound foolish to sell product? As a professional builder why not start with a better foundation and let the hobbyists test the limits of the junk yard blocks.
@@mmike76: Good point made. From 1969 to 1997, Fords Windsor engine, with the exception of the cam support cracking, has done for 532 pounds all up what the Clevelands heavier engine failed to do between 1970 to 1982: Survive the ardour of winter truck freeze thaw cycles. Probably as bad as 700 hp in Winston Cup races. The challange Henry Ford made in 1969 was to do what the FE and FT engines blocks could without another 150 pounds of iron. To make the same power an 8.2 inch 302 Boss or 9.2 deck 351C or 9.5 inch deck 351W 4V made stock, with less iron. 290 hp gross at 4600 rpm for most of those Fall 1969 issue engines. Ford has always been about building an automobile down to a cost. The 9.469 and 9.500 inch deck Windsor 351 is stronger than the 9.206 inch Cleveland 351 block wise, and 37 pounds lighter apples for apples. The alloy intake Boss 351 weighed in at 569 pounds, the stock alloy intake 4V 351W, about 532 pounds. The two bolt blocks on all Clevelands and Windsor 351's will start crank walking only when detonation frets the thrust bearings; it gets worse if you use a manual transmission with high clutch loads, or a savage trans brake automatic. Yet when made in the various plants in Candada or Ohio or South America, the Windsor carries another 30 thou more effective iron in every bulkhead and cylinderwall, yet still being lighter than the shallow deck 9.2 inch Clevelands. It's the Cleveland and 335 series Integrated cam cover and the rudimentary and simplified Bill Gay casting process that added extra bulkhead width and then tried to pare back the weight gains by shell moulded thinwall cylinder walls down to 130 thou. At the same time, when SB Chevy 010 and Lima Big Block and FT Ford plants were casting there block cylinder walls at 180 thou at the thrust faces, and its the huge loss in cylinderwall support that can kill the Cleveland. Even destroked stock Australian XE or pillow block 302 Clevelands with 6.03 inch rods and 3 inch strokes split cylinder walls in 188 hp sedan cars. Thats was the NASCAR 700 hp block from 1978 to 1985. Any 351W block has proven latent superiority in priority oiling, lightness and crank durability. Fords Cleveland block is inferior to the Windsor block, but both are able to handle NASCAR and endurance racing to well over 700 hp. The cost of a Windsor race block with thicker walls is about 2500 dollars. The cost of magna Flux ingredients and Mondello style Humboldt vibrating tabling a junkyard Windsor block to stress relieve it is about 500 dollars. The two bolt main bearing caps will handle most loads. Ford didn't need to upgrade the main bearing bolt diameter, two bolt blocks just need proper pegging to stop cap and crank walk. Lastly, Fords SVO made zero balance forged cranks to replace 28 Ounce Detroit Unbalance cast iron cranks in the 80s. They are fully countewighed like a twist forged 312 Y block crank, and still lighter than a 28 ounce unbalance crank. US Ford engine builders know how to increase component strength without automtaically moving to a 2.5 K block.
@@deanstevenson6527 Does metallurgy of the 1960’s 1970 even begin to compare with the metallurgy of 2021. Is my point. Unless constrained by rules I’d spend my money on the stout bottom end of a fresh casting to finish. To say 1970 351 Windsor’s will run 700 hp all day isn’t what most of these yahoo’s mean. 700hp for 10 sec’s 50 times. Isn’t 700 hp all day, like marine, and/or road race/drifting applications. Just saying. Not that guy’s can’t build fast stuff with old blocks and cast crankshafts If I’m going to hire a professional builder I don’t want to tie one arm behind his back.
@@mmike76 There's loads of history of the 351w OEM blocks being plenty stout enough for 700 hp. You just need to uncover that history, and not be so closed minded with all this juvenile online block splitting lore of late.
Great video bro, but you seriously need to work on your approach. I almost fell asleep.
What? 😴
still wondering why people are using windsor based heads when the far superior clevelands are widely available. or just a 429-460 385 series....
If i do cleveland heads do i need machine work on the block? Also do i need cleveland thermostat housing and intake manifold
@@jccoram8121 You're talking about using 1980's hacks. In the 1990's the EFI racing community used Cleveland style ports in Windsor architecture heads. Look up SVO C3 heads.
@@deanb949 i dont use efi
You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Don't show me a picture of the engine and not give me a single sound clip.
Bueler...Butler...bueler
#𝘾𝙋𝙍
#𝘾𝙃𝙋
A properly sized carb should have beaten any efi setup. I'm calling bullshit on your test.
Those engines sounded amazing for you thank you.. NOT.. THANKS THO
Girdles do nothing except lighten your wallet
Thought this would be a good video until you didn’t give all cam specs useless video