it is the truth. along with, "HP sells engines, Torque rules the street" :) If you want MPH at the strip, build for HP. If you want to chop the seconds, work on torque and launch to win at the starting line. For the street, focus on torque at low RPMs, and get the gas mileage for "free"....and use junkyard OEM parts to do it with.
RPM Air gap is known to make a lot of torque! It's a good design. It was cool to see the TFS single plane had almost the same peak torque and simply shifted the curve to the right by 1000 rpm.
Now that I’ve watched it...NICE!!! Richard we made over a 1000 crank hp on a 410 for 3 or 4 years no problems...with a girdle of course lol I love seeing good power coming out of a Ford engine 💪🏻💪🏻
BW MadDog [retired] you see the picture icon by my name? That was a stock block 393 that accidentally made 1500hp and we didn’t know we were getting bad data we had a short in the data logger and well she split😱👀😝
For every success story, there are others where someone found the "friday afternoon" or "monday morning" block. In the old days, folks worked with what was in the junkyard, but today a Dart 363 block that can go out to 440 cid is easy enough to obtain. I know its cool to gamble, but I can't dump money into machining, girdles and Hard Blok just to have it pop like a pimple in a year--its never cheap when you do the job twice.
Albert Gaspar I agree I just worked with what I had and budget but today it’s grown into a 468cid Dart Iron Eagle block monster that on motor made 1500hp but I’m in the process of switching to twin 72/74 or 76/74 I’m not for sure yet.
Yeah, i should say, everyone's free to do what they want and racing is expensive, but no one loves the racer who oils down the track :) As for a street engine, there's no E85 around here and so that means $12 a gallon for anything over 93 octane. If I want to make big numbers and not just toss together leftover parts (nothing wrong with that, its why i keep buying cheap parts for the day i get another car that will take 'em all) for the street, i'll go big on displacement and then a power adder...that typically means more off-idle torque and with a roller cam (with steep ramps that shrink duration like the old variable duration lifters but give a higher redline than those flat tappets), less need for boost but a real focus on valve springs to keep the valves following orders. Until I hit the track and can dump the gas for 100 octane and then crank up the power adder. That's my take on it, maybe others have even better ideas.
Albert Gaspar I’m a solid lift roller cam kinda guy with big lift with a REALLY BAD ASS CHOP that beats the ground but makes big power where it counts...middle of the run and on but I like enough to get you off the brake. The cam I’m running now is a Crower special grind duel pattern in the 880s & 890s lift. That’s where you run into spring control problems but my dads best friends with an old IHRA ProStock champion from the 80s and he built his own engines and still has a machine shop and he helps us with all our head work. Doug Kirk is his name & he’s a under study of Bob Glidden so I’m covered on all my heads and intake stuff lol I’d love to find me an old RDI block, those take some abuse 👀👀
Richard, great build. I remember reading about this one, I think it was called the "LS Slayer" or something in your article. I'm building a similar combo right now for my 68 Mustang, F4TE block, Eagle crank and rods, Mahle pistons, AFR 205 heads, and a Super Vic intake. Love your channel, bring on the tests!
Great video Sir. Thankyou for all that you do!!!!!! I'm chomping at the bit for the efi ford 300 six series of tests!!!! With enough cam to turn 5500, the right t4 based turbo, and all-the-boost, it will be a bad-ass. Get ready Cummins fans😁
I can't wait either. It's still going to be really limited still by the head port flow, valve shrouding and intake manifold flow and runner length, though.
These videos are a great help. I'm in the research stage of building a 408w w/ a supercharger with the goal of 750-800hp. The combination with your "stage 4" cam, looks perfect for me, or at least gets me in the right direction. Thanks for the huge time saver!
Richard this thing really proves to people that you can keep a SBF and still make power at a junkyard budget without putting a chevy powerplant swap in(whether it be LS or SBC)......The 351 stroked with a turbo or 2 or a Nitrous shot or a old school Vortech (pullied up) to make 12-14 lbs can really be a blast on the street and in all fairness will compete in street grudge racing classes in the right chassis combo!!....Thank you for the great information and video showing people that Ford can still compete in a LS happy world out there💪💪
I continue to be amazed at where the little 351W stands today as a performance engine. In 1973 I purchased a used 1970 Mach 1 with the 351W. At that time there were basically NO companies providing aftermarket speed parts like heads and cams. About all I could do was add a mediocre dual plane intake, 700 Holley and headers which didn’t do much to help the anemic 250 (GROSS) HP factory rating. The Cleveland small block got all the love back then. The 351 Windsor was considered a “truck” engine not unlike the 390 FE. Oh what I would have given to gave had an engine like in this test. I would have been king of the streets!
OMG, I love your videos. I've been trying to tell people for years that on a larger motor with a serious cam a single plane is the way to go. If your running a small block engine you might want to run that dual plane to enhance the torque down low where you do most of your driving but with the big inch motors making 300-400 ft/lbs. down low you'll just spin your tires. Better to soften up the motor down low and let that sucker eat up high. Thanks much for this test, now I have something to show those folks that read to many magazines.
Ive been thinking about doing a 351 408 set up on a car that people mostly dont like cause why not and now you definitely just showed me exactly why i should you are a bad ass richard thanks man! As always content rocks man!
My 351W in my 96 E350 van over heated and burned the piston rings so I put a Coast performance 408 stroker in it with TFS heads and an Edelbrock 750cfm carb with edelbrock Vic Jr cylinder heads and TFS camshaft. Was a bad ass engine. Really helped with torque down low. Also helped with torque up high as well. I’m pretty sure it made around 450-500hp and 500-550 torque. Would still rev to 6250 no problem, didnt ever let it run out that high too much because it was an all cast rotating assembly.
It would have been nice to see how this motor would have done with a open spacer on the rpm intake! Love this video but my favorite is the 5.0 block cracking video! Thanks Richard keep up the hard work
Lets see where that 351W roller block sits on the strength department. Got my hand way up! Good series of dyno tests to show what happens when you have one of the combo too small. If you're looking for good torque for the street there's no doubt the RPM Air gap is the way to go. Need more top end? Maybe could have put an open hole spacer on it, maybe even a 2 or 3 inch spacer just for the track? Again, thanks for posting! Nice vid!
@@chriswhynder8311 Super Victor seems to be the most popular. Tons of guys using both the EFI version and carb style super victor. Over 400ci deserves a single plane intake :) Especially if it's going in a light car with a stick. Like my mustang ;)
You need to add that a street motor wants more tq. Even at the beginning of your dyno run it is making good tq. That engine for the street is a good strong safe street engine. I have commented before chasing hp takes you in to a higher rpm range. This changes all the related parts. Stall converter, gear ratio if you want a good street car. That engine is perfect. for a 408w.
I run a fuel injected 438windsor in my 68 mustang with a 4k stall th400 410 gears, afr 220 heads, super victor efi, eddy elbow, accufab tb, 11.5:1 compression, comp cams xr292r. Made 530wheel. Would of made 560wheel with stick, but slower. Runs on 93 octane, soon to switch to e85. Hoping 550wheel on e85. Car made 460lbs torque at wheel. Burns through 275 Mickeys in 500 miles.
Great test. About the time I thought “ I wonder what a 0.620-0.650 lift cam with a little more duration would do for this combination.” Yo came up with the stouter cam you run. Another test with more compression ratio( around 12.0:1) and a fogger system would be interesting Of course a turbo or centrifugal compressor with at least 25 psi boost would really tweak the ears on that Ford. As always thank you for making us think. I really enjoy your videos.
Jeff Kopis Mr Holden specifically asks for comments/suggestions from his viewers. I really enjoy his videos. They are not only educational but myth busting and thought provoking. So when he asks an opinion or our thoughts there really is no need to become upset when his viewers respond. Sometimes you can learn much from some of the comments made by others. The comments also serve as a topic for future video ideas. Most comments are not intended to be disrespectful, but instead a sharing of information, knowledge or ideas. Some of his videos really do make me think, give new ideas and in general exercise those three brain cell I have lol. Thank you for your comment. Just an old man sharing his thoughts out loud.
Please do much more 351w testing! This was interesting to me since I run a nicely built 408w NA for road racing. It's a solid roller motor with .609 total lift from the custom cam and has the exact same 205cc runners on my RHS heads. I've been a little worried to rev it out to 7k like it was intended from hearing about main cap walk. Any experience with the RPM limits of these factory late model 351w blocks?
its nice to know roughly what I was making thanks for this test difference I had was a flat top piston this also explains why it felt like it didn't come alive until around 4k
I run a fuel injected 438windsor in my 68 mustang with a 4k stall th400 410 gears, afr 220 heads, super victor efi, eddy elbow, accufab tb, 11.5:1 compression, comp cams xr292r. Made 530wheel. Would of made 560wheel with stick, but slower. Runs on 93 octane, soon to switch to e85. Hoping 550wheel on e85. Car made 460lbs torque at wheel. Burns through 275 Mickeys in 500 miles. Car weighs 3k lbs. Caltracs suspension Eaton trutrac diff. Street car and i go through burger drive thru's with it and grocery shopping. Rear mickeys go real fast though. Check valves every 1500 miles spot on.
Thank you Richard for another interesting Ford SB test. Would love to see header test with 1/58 to 1 3/4 step header added after installing single plane to see if you can pick up torque and not loose the top HP gain. 👍
It would be pretty awesome if guys like yourself were able to weigh each engine as tested including major parts changes so guys such as myself could have a database for which the origin is known. Almost every list of engine weights I can find online has been "borrowed" from the same incomplete lists which has been copy-and-pasted from yet another site which got their list from some other unknown site. Often with multiple vastly different weights for the same engines in the same list. Other than that, you keep answering almost every engine based question I have ever thought about ! Here's a few engines that I hope to see you take on; 3.5 litre Buick/Rover aluminum V8, Ford Barra straight six, and the Ford 4.9 (300) straight six. The 4.9 might be hard to find . . . I have heard they used to cut up 351 Cleveland heads, put them back together and bolt them on the 4,9 !
During WW2 They boosted Mustang fighters with NOS. They also tried hydrogen peroxide which had power levels that were close to the NOS systems. Problem was it was highly corrosive. Today a lot of hot rodders are running water/alcohol injection on turbo and supercharger systems to fight detonation so they can run pump gas and high boost.. I wonder if replacing the water part of the mix with 35% food grade peroxide wouldn't be another power adder no one would ever suspect?
@@andrewjolley3620 No. The first military attempt to used hydrogen peroxide was in submarines to help them run diesel motors under water. It was dropped quickly in favor of electric motors. Earlier attempts before that were those trying to develop hydrogen engines.
I think you should put that engine in my 1964 ranchero Richard lol. Nice show man! Always love your informative combinations. Always looking forward to your next builds/videos!
Those are nice cylinder heads. The quench pads and chambers are sweet. The 236 cam with the single plane setup is cherry. Shifting at 6200, it's a sealed deal, even on a street engine. Spraying at 4500 RPM is the foam on the cappuccino for that deal.
Gives me much inspiration. Currently waiting in my closet are 11r205s, morel lifters, tfs stage 4 cam, super vic intake etc...next on deck is a sbf408.
Man, seeing this is a kick to the nuts. I am building a 388w (3.75 stroke, 4.060 bore - dart block and afr 185 heads) and was hoping to make 525-550 with about the same size cam (slightly less duration, but slightly more lift - .595 on the intake and I think 232 on the duration). I now realize I will be lucky to break 500 hp with that.
A lot of people don’t realize how similar the LS engine is compared to the 351w’s and HEY RICHARD it would be cool for you or engine masters to do a direct cam and compression test if y’all haven’t already! Take 2 5.3’s or 6.0’s one with dish pistons one with dome or flat top pistons, have dish piston motor run stock heads unmilled, then run some milled heads on the dome piston motor, run a stock cam in each one, then throw in one of your famous cams in each one. I think that would show us if it’s really worth it to go after that compression
I would like to see a hyd roller with 106 LSA and 80 overlap (about 290 adv duration) in this engine to compare the power curve versus the first two combos.
Richard Holdener, I would love to see a max effort 351 build with a stock block 351. Single big turbo, EFI, maybe even Boss / Cleveland style aluminum heads. It would be nice to show that the old 351 can still hang with any of the LS Combinations. Its such a versatile engine, and can be built to make so much power. Not to mention its going to be lighter than a big block. I only wish Ford would have continued the production of this engine, and developed a factory aluminum block, similar to the Teksid 4.6 block. Then we would all have a serious and modern platform to work with.
Everything being equal compression camshaft head an intake for 351 should make more power 351 also has the advantage of having longer intake runners because of the taller deck
From what I recall the Windsor motor with an aftermarket Cleveland head will make a shit load of power. Enough power that even the top build LS is just shy of its power NA on pump gas. Over 800hp in 460ci setup. It was an iron block with CHI 400 heads.
I love your posts and have watched many of them. The one constant thing I see is more power, but it is just moving the power higher but down the RPM range. This is great for track cars, but for street cars this is making a less street friendly car. You should talk about rear end gear ratios. You are loosing low end torque for horsepower. Torque makes the car move, horsepower takes over once the car is moving. Now there is a need for a stall converter or in the case of manual transmission higher revs to leave a stop light. For every action there is a reaction. I think that many less experienced viewers will not understand the relationship between the loss of torque and the gain of horsepower. Please explain this in your future posts. Thanx!
Love your work! What is the biggest stroker kit that can be installed, without notching the block, on the 94-96 truck block and the original 1969 block? Thanks!
@@danmyers9372 Yes, a few runs are not a real life endurance test. I guess you are right. I would like to see them staying together run after run. There is too much money at risk.
I’d love to see an RPM Big Bang. Lots of cylinder head, lots of camshaft, fly cut pistons, short runner intake, stock bottom end LS or anything for that matter. I’ve never seen it and feel like there are a lot of misconceptions as to what the RPM limit is for a stock bottom end small block (especially LS engines). I hear people all the time talking about what may happen if you spin stock LS’ beyond 7200, but never hear any first hand experience.
I think you can rev the 4.8 and the 5.3 ls to the moon. 😁 Well atleast with aftermarket con rods. What you need is enough big cam and valve springs/valvetrain to support big rpm’s and you’re good to go! 😁 ”Yeah I turn it just 8600rpm. Yeah with stock bottom end. With nitrous” -James Taal
The 408 with dual plane would be sweet in a '79 F-250. The 408 with nitrous would be wild in a back halved Ranger with slicks and a roll cage at the track.
Richard thanks so much for the content. Could you do a video on ring flutter and preventative measures and what causes the bores to become oval shaped in regards to stroke engines? Thanks again.
Bring on the big bang! This video gave me an "other guys" idea too. Why not do a 300 I6 Ford? Better yet...... Ford vs Chevy straight six battle? Love the videos. Keep em coming.
I have a recommendation. If you're going to build a stroker Ford Windsor motor and can afford aluminum heads. Go with the Jon Kasse P38 heads. Kasse is a genius and has made 749 horses with these heads and a hydraulic roller cam on 427 cubic inches of windsor......without a power adder or a insanely high compression ratio. It also made 595 lb/ft of torque. Build one and.....party. EDIT. He also made 500 horses on a bone stock 302 block with them and I think.....380 lb/ft of torque.
@Jeff Kopis Yeh like that , but with , a cheap block , and have a Chinese rod shoot out ,or just one brand , well are most made in the same factory with a different name laser etched ?? , against 1st level entry USA made rod , 6000 rpm loaded for a decent amount of time or fail like ford did see what is the weak link , might need good valve train .
Had a friend about 30yrs ago that had a 300 with the Carved up 4V Cleveland Heads, in a Dirt Track 68 Mustang.The V8 Guys Protested him about every 3rd Race.He Wore Them Out!🙂
Thanks! This video is another exceptional blast of information. A re-run on the individual runner, "stack", injection systems might be fun if you use the two dyno runs with dual and single plane curves as reference. What stack length wins if you are looking for best average power4000-6000rpm? What about 3000-6000? How about 5000-6500?
Considering this is a 2 bolt block not designed for performance (that was the Cleveland's job) but bread and butter cars, and we're giving those main webs more stroke than they were designed to handle, I will respectfully say...it's not always a myth :) Try that HP with a block made in, say 1978, when all OEM were cutting back on the nickel content. When DSS warrantees their Level 10 Windsors, even they look thru blocks and sonic check them fully. Now, a drag block that is full of concrete or Hard Blok, running for a few seconds at a time, and being torn down on a regular basis to check for cap walk (and washed down cylinder walls from running rich enough to avoid holing a slug), yeah, I can see that. You may even want to take a look at the "stock block" to see if the side walls "barrel out", a sign of an aftermarket block posing. But most Ford forums say, if you want to last on the street, 700bhp is about where you want to look at an aftermarket block. www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/hp-limit-of-a-351w-block.795118/#:~:text=Pretty%20much%20any%20351W%20block%20should%20handle%20700,into%20that%20power%20neighborhood%20and%20adding%20spray.%20Matt www.corral.net/threads/how-much-power-can-a-351-windsor-handle.712013/ www.theturboforums.com/threads/how-much-power-can-a-351w-block-handle.307254/ www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/max-horsepower-out-of-a-351w.431732/
HI, RICH... My last probs. With the usp are solved 2 things to pass on: 1) the you tubrmers 'Numitro unuon' DID split a 408 cid windsor 2 ) milehigh1320's frmeature a 300 powered, front e gined dragster that ran a 7 34/174 8mph RUN THAT 6!!!-it begs to run You can SPANK some 5 0's Have fun BRIAN
What's your thoughts on the last setup except running a efi kit in place of the carb? So efi with the nitrous option? Really liked the numbers and how well you've explained your steps.
I'm interested to see another go at the 351 I've had a turbo stock bottom end 351 in my car for 5 years now and it's made over 700whp through an automatic I feel like the engine is stronger than a lot of people give it credit
Back to the bang for the cubic inches. We have 2 complete 460's. I'm gonna be putting what ever into a 94F150 flareside! Heads, cam, and intake on a 460? The c6 tyranny just eats up 40 hp right off the bat, but, a big case c4 (that we have), aluminum cj heads? The problem is I have everything for a 393, except the crank! Go with what you got the most of!!? I'm leaning that way, and there aren't many people I'd ask, but, dollar wise, is it really worth switching to a big block? I's not gonna be a daily driver, and I could always buy a turbo kit for the Windsor. Or, step up from the 100hp plate? That's the cheapest, and I got 2 more blocks, but only one roller!
@@richardholdener1727 got a block, stock rods with srp bolts, heads, carb, intake trw 302 pistons ,030 over. 100 shot of gas. Just need that crank and balance job!? Any more and I'd probably have to spend a ton on hooking it up!?? Thanks for the response. I'm 62, I like cheap crap that makes people turn their heads!
I like that statement.."if it makes more Tq than Hp there is still more performance to be gained"...
it is the truth. along with, "HP sells engines, Torque rules the street" :) If you want MPH at the strip, build for HP. If you want to chop the seconds, work on torque and launch to win at the starting line. For the street, focus on torque at low RPMs, and get the gas mileage for "free"....and use junkyard OEM parts to do it with.
Pontiac is best if your speed shop is the junkyard.
@@johntempest267 if you wanna go slow
@@ryangulley2051
Heh, good one.
.......effing inbred.
RPM Air gap is known to make a lot of torque! It's a good design. It was cool to see the TFS single plane had almost the same peak torque and simply shifted the curve to the right by 1000 rpm.
If Richard’s videos aren’t essential service, nothing is.
Yes, on a Big-Bang 351 test! Thanks for all of the great tests, Richard!👍
I like how well organized they are its easy to go back and find old vidys in the playlists
A BIG THANK YOU
I want one with an rpm air gap. Victor Jr & super victor intake.
B4 I even watch this you are the man Richard 💯
Legend
John Sheetz RIGHT...RIGHT💯💯
No doubt
Now that I’ve watched it...NICE!!! Richard we made over a 1000 crank hp on a 410 for 3 or 4 years no problems...with a girdle of course lol I love seeing good power coming out of a Ford engine 💪🏻💪🏻
BW MadDog [retired] you see the picture icon by my name? That was a stock block 393 that accidentally made 1500hp and we didn’t know we were getting bad data we had a short in the data logger and well she split😱👀😝
For every success story, there are others where someone found the "friday afternoon" or "monday morning" block. In the old days, folks worked with what was in the junkyard, but today a Dart 363 block that can go out to 440 cid is easy enough to obtain. I know its cool to gamble, but I can't dump money into machining, girdles and Hard Blok just to have it pop like a pimple in a year--its never cheap when you do the job twice.
Albert Gaspar I agree I just worked with what I had and budget but today it’s grown into a 468cid Dart Iron Eagle block monster that on motor made 1500hp but I’m in the process of switching to twin 72/74 or 76/74 I’m not for sure yet.
Yeah, i should say, everyone's free to do what they want and racing is expensive, but no one loves the racer who oils down the track :) As for a street engine, there's no E85 around here and so that means $12 a gallon for anything over 93 octane. If I want to make big numbers and not just toss together leftover parts (nothing wrong with that, its why i keep buying cheap parts for the day i get another car that will take 'em all) for the street, i'll go big on displacement and then a power adder...that typically means more off-idle torque and with a roller cam (with steep ramps that shrink duration like the old variable duration lifters but give a higher redline than those flat tappets), less need for boost but a real focus on valve springs to keep the valves following orders. Until I hit the track and can dump the gas for 100 octane and then crank up the power adder.
That's my take on it, maybe others have even better ideas.
Albert Gaspar I’m a solid lift roller cam kinda guy with big lift with a REALLY BAD ASS CHOP that beats the ground but makes big power where it counts...middle of the run and on but I like enough to get you off the brake. The cam I’m running now is a Crower special grind duel pattern in the 880s & 890s lift. That’s where you run into spring control problems but my dads best friends with an old IHRA ProStock champion from the 80s and he built his own engines and still has a machine shop and he helps us with all our head work. Doug Kirk is his name & he’s a under study of Bob Glidden so I’m covered on all my heads and intake stuff lol I’d love to find me an old RDI block, those take some abuse 👀👀
Yes yes yes 351W Big Bang PLEASE!!!
Thank you Richard! The 1st combo is almost identical to what im building and i think the 1st combo will be the most fun in a 1971 f100
So helpful I’m building a 408 right now and trying to hit 600+ hp
Yes! Would like to see you push the limits of the 351w roller block! Inquiring minds want to know and Dulcich! Lol
Richard, great build. I remember reading about this one, I think it was called the "LS Slayer" or something in your article. I'm building a similar combo right now for my 68 Mustang, F4TE block, Eagle crank and rods, Mahle pistons, AFR 205 heads, and a Super Vic intake. Love your channel, bring on the tests!
Im doing a similar build for my 68 mustang too! Im probably further behind so let us know how it goes bud.
Richard Fordener has a nice ring to it.
302 video to 408 video, nice upgrade in video content, thanks I needed that!
Great video Sir. Thankyou for all that you do!!!!!! I'm chomping at the bit for the efi ford 300 six series of tests!!!! With enough cam to turn 5500, the right t4 based turbo, and all-the-boost, it will be a bad-ass. Get ready Cummins fans😁
I can't wait either. It's still going to be really limited still by the head port flow, valve shrouding and intake manifold flow and runner length, though.
These videos are a great help. I'm in the research stage of building a 408w w/ a supercharger with the goal of 750-800hp. The combination with your "stage 4" cam, looks perfect for me, or at least gets me in the right direction. Thanks for the huge time saver!
that is likely bigger than you need with a blower
@@richardholdener1727 thanks for the tip. Guessing the first cam in this video might do the trick then? 🤔
Richard this thing really proves to people that you can keep a SBF and still make power at a junkyard budget without putting a chevy powerplant swap in(whether it be LS or SBC)......The 351 stroked with a turbo or 2 or a Nitrous shot or a old school Vortech (pullied up) to make 12-14 lbs can really be a blast on the street and in all fairness will compete in street grudge racing classes in the right chassis combo!!....Thank you for the great information and video showing people that Ford can still compete in a LS happy world out there💪💪
I continue to be amazed at where the little 351W stands today as a performance engine. In 1973 I purchased a used 1970 Mach 1 with the 351W. At that time there were basically NO companies providing aftermarket speed parts like heads and cams. About all I could do was add a mediocre dual plane intake, 700 Holley and headers which didn’t do much to help the anemic 250 (GROSS) HP factory rating. The Cleveland small block got all the love back then. The 351 Windsor was considered a “truck” engine not unlike the 390 FE. Oh what I would have given to gave had an engine like in this test. I would have been king of the streets!
*600 Holley
408 Windsor power great video miss ford engines in mustangs.
I love the crazy sounding rave techno music! Its fitting
Great video! I know I am repeating myself but would love to see a 351w with cleveland style heads (CLEVOR).....
OMG, I love your videos. I've been trying to tell people for years that on a larger motor with a serious cam a single plane is the way to go. If your running a small block engine you might want to run that dual plane to enhance the torque down low where you do most of your driving but with the big inch motors making 300-400 ft/lbs. down low you'll just spin your tires. Better to soften up the motor down low and let that sucker eat up high. Thanks much for this test, now I have something to show those folks that read to many magazines.
Ive been thinking about doing a 351 408 set up on a car that people mostly dont like cause why not and now you definitely just showed me exactly why i should you are a bad ass richard thanks man! As always content rocks man!
The original dyno test shows EXACTLY the torque curve I need to make my Panther platform the sweetest daily driver I've ever had.
Keep the Ford stuff coming!!!!
My 351W in my 96 E350 van over heated and burned the piston rings so I put a Coast performance 408 stroker in it with TFS heads and an Edelbrock 750cfm carb with edelbrock Vic Jr cylinder heads and TFS camshaft. Was a bad ass engine. Really helped with torque down low. Also helped with torque up high as well. I’m pretty sure it made around 450-500hp and 500-550 torque. Would still rev to 6250 no problem, didnt ever let it run out that high too much because it was an all cast rotating assembly.
It would have been nice to see how this motor would have done with a open spacer on the rpm intake! Love this video but my favorite is the 5.0 block cracking video! Thanks Richard keep up the hard work
Lets see where that 351W roller block sits on the strength department. Got my hand way up! Good series of dyno tests to show what happens when you have one of the combo too small. If you're looking for good torque for the street there's no doubt the RPM Air gap is the way to go. Need more top end? Maybe could have put an open hole spacer on it, maybe even a 2 or 3 inch spacer just for the track? Again, thanks for posting! Nice vid!
what about for a street 408 would you still use the rpm air gap?
@@chriswhynder8311 Super Victor seems to be the most popular. Tons of guys using both the EFI version and carb style super victor.
Over 400ci deserves a single plane intake :)
Especially if it's going in a light car with a stick. Like my mustang ;)
YES BIG BANG! currently I am gathering parts for a 408w build. It should be fun in my 70 Torino.
You need to add that a street motor wants more tq. Even at the beginning of your dyno run it is making good tq. That engine for the street is a good strong safe street engine. I have commented before chasing hp takes you in to a higher rpm range. This changes all the related parts. Stall converter, gear ratio if you want a good street car. That engine is perfect. for a 408w.
Love the 351 Windsor... It is a mini brute...
FORD POWER BABY !!! Thanks for the videos Richard.
Richard, if you haven't done it already you need to do a big bang test with a 350 SBC. Twin turbo, the whole she-bang.
I run a fuel injected 438windsor in my 68 mustang with a 4k stall th400 410 gears, afr 220 heads, super victor efi, eddy elbow, accufab tb, 11.5:1 compression, comp cams xr292r. Made 530wheel. Would of made 560wheel with stick, but slower. Runs on 93 octane, soon to switch to e85. Hoping 550wheel on e85. Car made 460lbs torque at wheel. Burns through 275 Mickeys in 500 miles.
I want to see you revisit the Big Bang on this also! Thanks Richard!
Great test. About the time I thought “ I wonder what a 0.620-0.650 lift cam with a little more duration would do for this combination.” Yo came up with the stouter cam you run. Another test with more compression ratio( around 12.0:1) and a fogger system would be interesting Of course a turbo or centrifugal compressor with at least 25 psi boost would really tweak the ears on that Ford. As always thank you for making us think. I really enjoy your videos.
Jeff Kopis Mr Holden specifically asks for comments/suggestions from his viewers. I really enjoy his videos. They are not only educational but myth busting and thought provoking. So when he asks an opinion or our thoughts there really is no need to become upset when his viewers respond. Sometimes you can learn much from some of the comments made by others. The comments also serve as a topic for future video ideas. Most comments are not intended to be disrespectful, but instead a sharing of information, knowledge or ideas. Some of his videos really do make me think, give new ideas and in general exercise those three brain cell I have lol. Thank you for your comment. Just an old man sharing his thoughts out loud.
Please do much more 351w testing! This was interesting to me since I run a nicely built 408w NA for road racing. It's a solid roller motor with .609 total lift from the custom cam and has the exact same 205cc runners on my RHS heads. I've been a little worried to rev it out to 7k like it was intended from hearing about main cap walk. Any experience with the RPM limits of these factory late model 351w blocks?
its nice to know roughly what I was making thanks for this test difference I had was a flat top piston this also explains why it felt like it didn't come alive until around 4k
I run a fuel injected 438windsor in my 68 mustang with a 4k stall th400 410 gears, afr 220 heads, super victor efi, eddy elbow, accufab tb, 11.5:1 compression, comp cams xr292r. Made 530wheel. Would of made 560wheel with stick, but slower. Runs on 93 octane, soon to switch to e85. Hoping 550wheel on e85. Car made 460lbs torque at wheel. Burns through 275 Mickeys in 500 miles.
Car weighs 3k lbs. Caltracs suspension Eaton trutrac diff. Street car and i go through burger drive thru's with it and grocery shopping. Rear mickeys go real fast though. Check valves every 1500 miles spot on.
I had an efi 408 with a s trim back in the late 90s... Most fun I ever had with my clothes on...Lol
I just picked up 351 Cleveland. That's what I plan to build.
Thank you Richard for another interesting Ford SB test. Would love to see header test with 1/58 to 1 3/4 step header added after installing single plane to see if you can pick up torque and not loose the top HP gain. 👍
It would be pretty awesome if guys like yourself were able to weigh each engine as tested including major parts changes so guys such as myself could have a database for which the origin is known. Almost every list of engine weights I can find online has been "borrowed" from the same incomplete lists which has been copy-and-pasted from yet another site which got their list from some other unknown site. Often with multiple vastly different weights for the same engines in the same list.
Other than that, you keep answering almost every engine based question I have ever thought about !
Here's a few engines that I hope to see you take on;
3.5 litre Buick/Rover aluminum V8,
Ford Barra straight six,
and the Ford 4.9 (300) straight six.
The 4.9 might be hard to find . . . I have heard they used to cut up 351 Cleveland heads, put them back together and bolt them on the 4,9 !
GOOD video Richard,NOW 408 CLEVELAND PLEASE
Do You Think The Cleveland Would Be Faster?
During WW2 They boosted Mustang fighters with NOS. They also tried hydrogen peroxide which had power levels that were close to the NOS systems. Problem was it was highly corrosive. Today a lot of hot rodders are running water/alcohol injection on turbo and supercharger systems to fight detonation so they can run pump gas and high boost.. I wonder if replacing the water part of the mix with 35% food grade peroxide wouldn't be another power adder no one would ever suspect?
@@andrewjolley3620 No. The first military attempt to used hydrogen peroxide was in submarines to help them run diesel motors under water. It was dropped quickly in favor of electric motors. Earlier attempts before that were those trying to develop hydrogen engines.
Power augmentation was experimented with and run by the Germans, the British and Americans before going to jets
M1 alcohol fuel is also corrosive to aluminum parts.Its also hard or oil.
Richard! It's time to do another Big-Bang 351 Test!!!!
I think you should put that engine in my 1964 ranchero Richard lol. Nice show man! Always love your informative combinations. Always looking forward to your next builds/videos!
thnx-it went in a Mustang
Nice engine for the track or upsetting hellcats on Woodward ! Yup I am from the D! 331 fox body !
Those are nice cylinder heads. The quench pads and chambers are sweet. The 236 cam with the single plane setup is cherry. Shifting at 6200, it's a sealed deal, even on a street engine. Spraying at 4500 RPM is the foam on the cappuccino for that deal.
The techno music is perfect.
Gives me much inspiration. Currently waiting in my closet are 11r205s, morel lifters, tfs stage 4 cam, super vic intake etc...next on deck is a sbf408.
Ever get that combo together?
Richard!! Great vid as always. Love the blue oval stuff!!!
Great content! I love the Ford stuff. Definitely would like to see more Big Bang 351.
5:58 What a glorious melody 😍
Man, seeing this is a kick to the nuts. I am building a 388w (3.75 stroke, 4.060 bore - dart block and afr 185 heads) and was hoping to make 525-550 with about the same size cam (slightly less duration, but slightly more lift - .595 on the intake and I think 232 on the duration). I now realize I will be lucky to break 500 hp with that.
More cam, turn it higher@?
Fell in love with the carburetor setups ironically I cant seem to get rid of this complete ls6 intake manifold thought everyone loved efi 🤣
Yes, big bang 351W!!! 90's roller truck block please
Love to see a twin turbo 408.im doing a Ford ranger v8 swap..
That little truck will fly..
Hell yeah me too
How about a 351 Windsor stroker 408 with Cleveland Boss heads, Rich!? ;)
I have run 3V heads on a Windsor
A lot of people don’t realize how similar the LS engine is compared to the 351w’s and HEY RICHARD it would be cool for you or engine masters to do a direct cam and compression test if y’all haven’t already! Take 2 5.3’s or 6.0’s one with dish pistons one with dome or flat top pistons, have dish piston motor run stock heads unmilled, then run some milled heads on the dome piston motor, run a stock cam in each one, then throw in one of your famous cams in each one. I think that would show us if it’s really worth it to go after that compression
I just picked up a 1969 351w. I would love to see a build sheet for this 408 na.
I would like to see a hyd roller with 106 LSA and 80 overlap (about 290 adv duration) in this engine to compare the power curve versus the first two combos.
Richard Holdener, I would love to see a max effort 351 build with a stock block 351. Single big turbo, EFI, maybe even Boss / Cleveland style aluminum heads. It would be nice to show that the old 351 can still hang with any of the LS Combinations. Its such a versatile engine, and can be built to make so much power. Not to mention its going to be lighter than a big block. I only wish Ford would have continued the production of this engine, and developed a factory aluminum block, similar to the Teksid 4.6 block. Then we would all have a serious and modern platform to work with.
I would like to see a 351 vs 347 same heads test to see which makes more power na
same cam too, we'll see if the longer connecting rods and longer intake port length makes any difference.
347 does
351 revs higher but the 347 has a flatter power curve
all things equal the 351 will be on top just because it has 5ci more than the 347.
Everything being equal compression camshaft head an intake for 351 should make more power 351 also has the advantage of having longer intake runners because of the taller deck
From what I recall the Windsor motor with an aftermarket Cleveland head will make a shit load of power. Enough power that even the top build LS is just shy of its power NA on pump gas. Over 800hp in 460ci setup. It was an iron block with CHI 400 heads.
that's a lot but race combos at 440 inches are making north of 1100 hp
I love your posts and have watched many of them. The one constant thing I see is more power, but it is just moving the power higher but down the RPM range. This is great for track cars, but for street cars this is making a less street friendly car. You should talk about rear end gear ratios. You are loosing low end torque for horsepower. Torque makes the car move, horsepower takes over once the car is moving. Now there is a need for a stall converter or in the case of manual transmission higher revs to leave a stop light. For every action there is a reaction. I think that many less experienced viewers will not understand the relationship between the loss of torque and the gain of horsepower. Please explain this in your future posts. Thanx!
I'd like to see more compression and a ported intake manifold with the biggest cam.
I wish you would start all runs at the same RPM.
@Jeff Kopis I meant just this test engine. I understand some combos can't be loaded at a low RPM. Keep each engine test consistent.
Love your work! What is the biggest stroker kit that can be installed, without notching the block, on the 94-96 truck block and the original 1969 block? Thanks!
MOST REQUIRE NOTCHING (FOR RODS)
So, the SPEEDMASTER Connecting Rods held together, Mmmmhh. I´ll have to think again on my rod choosing.
At least long enough for a few dyno tests. I would not trust their parts over the long haul. I like sleeping at night.
@@danmyers9372 Yes, a few runs are not a real life endurance test. I guess you are right. I would like to see them staying together run after run. There is too much money at risk.
If only Richard could tell us how many dyno tests he has made with that set of con rods.
Buy American!
@@funfun8095 Ha, like what? I suppose he'll need to refinance the house as well.
I’d love to see an RPM Big Bang. Lots of cylinder head, lots of camshaft, fly cut pistons, short runner intake, stock bottom end LS or anything for that matter. I’ve never seen it and feel like there are a lot of misconceptions as to what the RPM limit is for a stock bottom end small block (especially LS engines).
I hear people all the time talking about what may happen if you spin stock LS’ beyond 7200, but never hear any first hand experience.
I think you can rev the 4.8 and the 5.3 ls to the moon. 😁
Well atleast with aftermarket con rods.
What you need is enough big cam and valve springs/valvetrain to support big rpm’s and you’re good to go! 😁
”Yeah I turn it just 8600rpm. Yeah with stock bottom end. With nitrous” -James Taal
changing rods make it not a SBE
I wanted to try the factory 351 throttle body on My 300 I6 with a ported intake,and a larger cam.
Since prices are so high for intakes maybe a test on this combo with a spacer or taller then 1 inch on the dual plane
The 408 with dual plane would be sweet in a '79 F-250. The 408 with nitrous would be wild in a back halved Ranger with slicks and a roll cage at the track.
I would love to see the big bang 351 with all the boost and then some to see what she'll hold.
Would LOVE to see you revisit the 351 and also possibly "Big Bang" a 5.0 (original and modern) correctly to see where it actually fails...
Richard thanks so much for the content. Could you do a video on ring flutter and preventative measures and what causes the bores to become oval shaped in regards to stroke engines? Thanks again.
Saturday late night gang lol Richard when are we gonna see that 429?
Bring on the big bang! This video gave me an "other guys" idea too. Why not do a 300 I6 Ford? Better yet...... Ford vs Chevy straight six battle? Love the videos. Keep em coming.
Better yet! I6 battle with boost and no2!
I have a recommendation. If you're going to build a stroker Ford Windsor motor and can afford aluminum heads. Go with the Jon Kasse P38 heads. Kasse is a genius and has made 749 horses with these heads and a hydraulic roller cam on 427 cubic inches of windsor......without a power adder or a insanely high compression ratio. It also made 595 lb/ft of torque. Build one and.....party.
EDIT. He also made 500 horses on a bone stock 302 block with them and I think.....380 lb/ft of torque.
Excellent videos Richard
Hey Richard , how about a durability test on some of those conrods like ford did on some of their race motors ! .
@Jeff Kopis Yeh like that , but with , a cheap block , and have a Chinese rod shoot out ,or just one brand , well are most made in the same factory with a different name laser etched ?? , against 1st level entry USA made rod , 6000 rpm loaded for a decent amount of time or fail like ford did see what is the weak link , might need good valve train .
Awesome videos. Loved the block splitting video and sbf content lately
If it wasn't so time consuming, I'd love to see Richard do a Ford 300 I6 with a cut and spliced LS Cylinder head.
Had a friend about 30yrs ago that had a 300 with the Carved up 4V Cleveland Heads, in a Dirt Track 68 Mustang.The V8 Guys Protested him about every 3rd Race.He Wore Them Out!🙂
Want to see you revisit the Big Bang 351 I really think there could be more in it
Thanks! This video is another exceptional blast of information.
A re-run on the individual runner, "stack", injection systems might be fun if you use the two dyno runs with dual and single plane curves as reference. What stack length wins if you are looking for best average power4000-6000rpm? What about 3000-6000? How about 5000-6500?
I would have stayed with the 540hp combination. That was impressive enough. Would have made a fine street engine.
plus its under the typical 600 bhp that cracks a tall deck Windsor.
#Albert Gaspar - there is one of those myths again! Tall deck Windsor engines have been in drag cars for years up to, and exceeding the 1000 HP mark.
351Ws don't split
Considering this is a 2 bolt block not designed for performance (that was the Cleveland's job) but bread and butter cars, and we're giving those main webs more stroke than they were designed to handle, I will respectfully say...it's not always a myth :) Try that HP with a block made in, say 1978, when all OEM were cutting back on the nickel content.
When DSS warrantees their Level 10 Windsors, even they look thru blocks and sonic check them fully.
Now, a drag block that is full of concrete or Hard Blok, running for a few seconds at a time, and being torn down on a regular basis to check for cap walk (and washed down cylinder walls from running rich enough to avoid holing a slug), yeah, I can see that. You may even want to take a look at the "stock block" to see if the side walls "barrel out", a sign of an aftermarket block posing. But most Ford forums say, if you want to last on the street, 700bhp is about where you want to look at an aftermarket block.
www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/hp-limit-of-a-351w-block.795118/#:~:text=Pretty%20much%20any%20351W%20block%20should%20handle%20700,into%20that%20power%20neighborhood%20and%20adding%20spray.%20Matt
www.corral.net/threads/how-much-power-can-a-351-windsor-handle.712013/
www.theturboforums.com/threads/how-much-power-can-a-351w-block-handle.307254/
www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/max-horsepower-out-of-a-351w.431732/
@@albertgaspar627 Sounds reasonable.
HI, RICH...
My last probs. With the usp are solved
2 things to pass on:
1) the you tubrmers 'Numitro unuon' DID split a 408 cid windsor
2 ) milehigh1320's frmeature a 300 powered, front e gined dragster that ran a 7 34/174 8mph
RUN THAT 6!!!-it begs to run
You can SPANK some 5 0's
Have fun
BRIAN
Yes a BIG BANG 351 would be awesome!
What's your thoughts on the last setup except running a efi kit in place of the carb? So efi with the nitrous option? Really liked the numbers and how well you've explained your steps.
nitrous works with efi or carb
I'm interested to see another go at the 351 I've had a turbo stock bottom end 351 in my car for 5 years now and it's made over 700whp through an automatic I feel like the engine is stronger than a lot of people give it credit
Cast pistons?
Hell yes I want to see you redo the 351w big bang! Thanks as always
Hey Richard how about a Clevor!!!!!
I did some 3V stuff
Where are the videos?
I definitely want to see the 351 Big Bang!!!! Let’s see just how much it can take before it breaks!!!!
Definitely revisit the big bang. This time don't try to control the boost with the throttle 😂
IKR
Revisit the 351, big bang please.
Back to the bang for the cubic inches. We have 2 complete 460's. I'm gonna be putting what ever into a 94F150 flareside! Heads, cam, and intake on a 460? The c6 tyranny just eats up 40 hp right off the bat, but, a big case c4 (that we have), aluminum cj heads? The problem is I have everything for a 393, except the crank! Go with what you got the most of!!? I'm leaning that way, and there aren't many people I'd ask, but, dollar wise, is it really worth switching to a big block? I's not gonna be a daily driver, and I could always buy a turbo kit for the Windsor. Or, step up from the 100hp plate? That's the cheapest, and I got 2 more blocks, but only one roller!
do what is cheap then add boost or nos
@@richardholdener1727 got a block, stock rods with srp bolts, heads, carb, intake trw 302 pistons ,030 over. 100 shot of gas. Just need that crank and balance job!? Any more and I'd probably have to spend a ton on hooking it up!?? Thanks for the response. I'm 62, I like cheap crap that makes people turn their heads!
Richard not disappointing!
definitely revisit the big bang 351!
Can’t wait for you do the Big Bang test again with the 351w
Love the SBF & Windsor content!
Would not every engine that doesn’t rev over 5252rpm always make more torque than horsepower?
yes and some that do