If u pick the Cleave feats und Rowdy u can hit more than one Enemy per Turn. And the skycthe from act 2 stacks with the cleave talents, so ge get 2x cleave.
Eldritch Scoundrel - Cantrips can get sneak attack + ranged touch attack so they are useful. One downside to Eldritch Scoundrel is that Woljif is one; and you really don't need two in a party.
Sylvan Trickster doesn't lose the ability to take normal Rogue Talents, they just add Witch Hexes to the list of things they can take. It's still not the best synergy but it doesn't really cost much. If you like, really want Iceplant on your rogue or something there you go.
@@Nmwhat I think there's a Legend build in there somewhere. Might be tough to make work throughout the game but probably could wreck Inevitable Excess if you were something like Sylvan Trickster 10 (to grab your hexes and dispelling strike) Wizard 10 Arcane Trickster 10 and the maybe 10 Ranger Demonslayer levels or some other full BAB class just to pump your to-hit. Then you can throw out lowly Magic Missiles that make like 5 Dispel Attempts or Scorching or Hellfire Rays that do serious sneak damage and also dispel. Can throw in a few more Sylvan Trickster levels for Crippling Strike or whatever else you like. With Hare Familiar from Wizard, (Mythic) Improved Initiative, Pickpocket, Sorcerous Reflex, and the Destructive Dispel/Dispel Synergy stuff you have really good alpha strike potential. Would just be miserable for about 15 levels in the middle there.
From my perspective adding hexes does not do anything for the Rogue kit while the loss of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge is slightly impactful so I rank it a B- which is only slightly lower than the B Rogue has. I think this ranking takes into account that they don't lose Rogue Talents.
getting to roll twice potentially every time you roll or your enemy rolls inc ombat and taking whichever result benefits you most is pretty rad if you're building for it tbh. But you'd only EVER need it in a solo run.
I'm in the middle of a run where I did Rowdy 1/Witch of the Veil 4/Arcane Trickster 2 (and I'm going back to Witch of the Veil until I get her teleport ability) Works pretty well constantly turning invisible, one shotting an enemy, turning back invisible, one shotting an enemy, etc.
So, you raise some good points about Rowdy's limitations. But I also raise you Improved Cleaving finish will carry the vital strike dice over to all cleaves. Also your job is to assassinate the tank. Or anyone for that matter, but with legendary proportions those cleaving finishes can be pretty gnarly my dude.
I agree but I think Improved Cleaving Finish is a pretty steep feat sacrifice. Hard to say the class won't miss other vital mechanics by going that route.
@@SlanderedGaming yes, but. other than 4 levels of fighter, 3 levels of loremaster can get you cleaving finish and improved without needing power attack or cleave, if you're being like that. you only /need/ 11 levels of rowdy. admittedly thats how I like to do it, I think you can do this with trickster perception 3 as well, or knowledge 3 whichever trick lets you ignore feat requirements, that is another route which can be pretty opportunistic if you dont want to go loremaster. there's options and it's niche. thumbs ups! (But YOU DO NEED cleaving finish and improved cleaving finish, you can take improved cleaving finish solo with loremaster but it won't work without cleaving finish to trigger it. also because you only need 11 levels of rogue you have a lot of freedom to take dips, (maybe *I* should make a video haha, and explore this further, but this is probably a legit good opportunity for a vivisectionist rogue and maybe even a monk dip. :D
Point: When the Rowdy isn't nuking the boss, and it is ABSOLUTELY nuking the boss, you just turn off vital strike and it's decimating the front line with sneak attacks. Especially when hit with enlarge person or legendary proportions for some reach, it gets pretty gross pretty fast. And it might miss the boss? Cool, that's what true strike is for. They do get use magic device, right? Don't even need a caster to do that to them, just cast the scroll and run up. I'd say it's S as well, because if the boss can be sneak attacked it's getting killed pretty quick and if it's not a single target you can still just be a basic rogue doing basic rogue damage. Still nothing to sneeze at, especially if you're rocking a 2 hander and are 2 size categories larger with a scroll you picked up earlier. 4d6 damage plus 1.5x str plus sneak attack is a lot of dice to throw at a pack of mobs with a greatsword. ESPECIALLY if it crits, that's a high level sneak attack worth of damage by itself even before the sneak attack.
When you were describing the Rowdy archetype I just kept thinking "Man, I don't remember this archetype working this way in Kingmaker at all!" then you got to Thug and I realized Rowdy wasn't in Kingmaker lol I did a Knife Master playthrough in Kingmaker that I played very similarly to how Rowdy is designed and it was incredibly effective, but you're absolutely right about large group combat being a glaring weakness for a character that specializes in the Vital Strike feats. I wonder if the reason the Chemist archetype exists is that you're meant to pair them with a character that is fully invested in Alchemist so that they can share their brews with them? I doubt that would be any better than just creating a Grenadier that doesn't need to spend time crafting flasks and potions, as you mentioned, but maybe that would make it viable? I'm still at least a year out until I have time to install Wrath, let alone play it, so this is entirely speculation lol
Nice that Knife Master build does sound effective. I honestly don't see the point of Chemist because bombs scale with the Alchemist' level. Multiclassing just doesn't make much sense.
8:00 jeez man you need a hug. I'll hug you.....promise. Do agree on fear though and there are was to herd them. Plus it's a pretty easy way to lock people down. just have to be aware of it.
Eldrich Scoundrel (8 lvls) + a 1 lvl dip in Vivisectionist + a 1 lvl dip in Eldrich Archer + 10 lvls in Arcane Trickster and you nuke enemies in turn-based, why you might ask? well, you get a heavy crossbow in your arms and every time you do a scorching ray/hellfire ray you also do your attacks with the crossbow and with around 8-9 dice of sneak attack you end up doing a huge load of dmg as long as you do an impromptu sneak attack or the enemy is flatfooted. You can also do this with a longbow rather than a crossbow, but you need lots of dex and intelligence already so adding str to get some more dmg bonus from composite longbows might end up as a hassle especially if you play as a kitsune (like I did)
since bard has that Spell, basically bard can just use crossbow do sneak and high crit crossbow damage, never need to invest any points on Str8, Sense Vital really makes huge different for class has less damage.
I've found that vital strike suffers a little in this game because of the way it handles swift actions. This game treats swift actions almost like immediate actions, and even lets you do a full attack action after using a swift action. One of the best use cases for the feat in the tabletop game is when you're running a build that uses a lot of swift actions, since full attacks are full round actions.
I saw Rowdy and was like, "That seems ridiculously good" You aren't distributing damage, but it's perhaps the strongest surprise-round ambusher available. Since you only get a standard action in a Surprise Round, this lets you open with an arrow shot which combines Vital Stike and Sneak Attack and just... Eliminates whatever needs to die most pressingly. At times, I'm finding I can even kill one enemy and then disappear, then come back to snipe again. I think that's it's true power - The fact that you can unleash your full power in a surprise round - and that lets you do some really silly things. Also, it's a good use of Vanish Potions. You can drink one, disappear, and then Vital Strike an enemy. I gave Wenduag levels in it, and have not regretted it at all. She's carried my party through the early parts of the game, and remains a primary damage dealer. ...It also really bizarrely gives you Vital Strike like 5 levels before you're supposed to get it, which is strange from a design standpoint and could probably be used for some shenanigans, build-wise
Rowdy is /the/ strongest class in the game at level 1 imo. Give Wenduag one level of rowdy or make a Rowdy archer character and you will one shot every single enemy you ambush in chapter 1. Unfortunately, pure Rowdy by about level 8 has lost most of its advantage and by level 12 or so is pretty mediocre. The reality of multiple attacks catches up fast. A melee Rowdy at level 12 makes one attack, maybe hitting a few other targets with Cleaving Finish or whatever. A level 12 Rogue with Haste, a racial bite attack, two weapon fighting, and a Skald granted bite attack will make 8 attacks, each single one of which can get a dispel chance and do either STR or CON damage. The scale tips fast.
Death knell! Yes!!!! Another great vid! When I start any game of this type I automatically think about a rogue run. Didn’t this time though but this has me thinking for next run.
I have not agreed with everything you've said, (which is a compliment by the way), so watching all of these and gaining a different perspective from my own in some cases has been a LOT of fun.
Been playing around with Woljif and rogue archs and I have to say that Rowdy is an underappreciated ranged class. Ranged Vital Strike may reduce your amount of attacks, but you will hit like a monster truck and it's less of a downside than if you were melee. If going ranged, I'd raise the ranking to an A+.
Knife Master is my favorite to run in this game for an Azata with a Starknife, only thing missing is the Desna Divine Fighting style feat line and it would be perfect to me.
I love thug. There was this awesome rp run I did where I did 4 dips on thug and Bloodrager with red dragon bloodline CN who has a short fuse and loves to get into fights cause of the blood of the red dragon in him. When enemies see this guy in a fight they will freak the hell out. Made some mercs for this kind of rp where he has a crew of his own to cause trouble to the cultists. Also the only time I ever use chemist is for the sneak attack for my grenadier when she throws bombs.
a note to your rowdy assessment... there is a bonus to killing single enemy; it's cleaving finish, improved cleaving finish. no mistake, it's a big investment (namely 5) but that's what those extra rogue talent feat are for... If you kill an enemy with vital strike, and you cleave, your cleave attack is also considered a vital strike... and if you have improved cleaving finish, so as the rest of your iterative attacks. this way you can even attack more then 4 times. for maximum carnage, this works well with demon mythic path's Demonic Charge... Charge as a move action; blast everyone around you with unholy damage and get them closer to low health... Use a reach weapon for maximum effectiveness... and vital strike one enemy; watch as you cleave all of them for massive damage.
I definitely agree that Cleave solves the issue I brought up but like you mentioned it's a HUGE feat investment so that's why I didn't mention it. If you go that route you will almost certainly most out on other crucial mechanics.
Underground Chemist is also pretty amazing if you're taking a single level to qualify for the Arcane Trickster PrC. Basically, free brew potion, for stuff you're not really going to miss since you're just taking one level in rogue.
On Vital Strike: In my opinion, it's best use is on classes with 2/3 attack bonus progression, excluding the rogue. Reason: You don't get as many attacks as a Fighter would, and your attack bonus is lower, making it difficult to hit on followup attacks. A warpriest, like the Lich's Staunton Vale companion, can make excellent use of the Vital Strike feat line to deliver massive damage reliably. I do not like it on rogues, though, because the sneak attack damage will far outperform what Vital Strike can contribute. Vital Strike is also great for moving and striking if you don't have a mount.
yeah but you can get 3x sneak attack dice on a vital strike rowdy rogue is probbaly the best single target damage dealer in the game it's just single target target damage dealing isn't that useful
take great cleave with vital strike and your single target problems are easily solved . works good on staunton vhane making him serviceable as a damage dealer late game
i disagree with the Rowdy, he essentially gains access to better additional attacks (better because you use your highest BAB, and it's standard action) WAY before a character would normally get it (on the 1lv you deal damage like a 7th level character, on 6th level you deal damage like an 11th level character and so on), AND you can make one of the most powerful Damage-wise build in the game, just in act 2, with this class. You go Rowdy Rogue, you get a "wide sweep" scythe ("Whenever this +2 scythe lands a hit, it deals its weapon damage to all adjacent enemies."), and you get cleaving finish and mythic cleave, and if i'm correct, that scythe's ability procs cleaving finish, so you use vital strike, to which you get A HUGE DMG buff (because of 2d6 sneak attacks), you use it on a weak enemy, kill it by dealing, let's say 100DMG, and automatically you deal 100dmg to all nearby enemies (scythe's ability), and another 100dmg to one enemy (cleaving finish), WHICH DEALS ANOTHER 100dmg TO ALL NEARBY ENEMIES (scythe's ability), and it repeats until no enemy dies or no one is left.
@@SlanderedGaming I don't think you can miss this weapon, it's bought from wilcer garm, and you have access to his shop for the whole game. But you're right about huge feat investment.
So if I may think of vital strike as the right fest line for mid attack bonus characters, if they're a 3/4 attack bonus or less then using vital strike increases your damage output by increasing strike rate while losing between 0 and 25% damage (up to 50% damage potential if a full attack duel wielding), precision damage is less effective (Like bane sneak attack etc), but one of the best classes for vital strike is the war priest. I also normally take that feat line on Camilla if I need her to be my front line fighter in the early/mid game.
Another great video and I really enjoy it very much.I would like some of your well appreciated advice, if you was building a lock picking trap finding dual wielding character which class would be best?And thank you in advance
@@SlanderedGaming he's right it's a good do everything, but you don't even need to take it to twenty it does better as a multiclass thing generally speaking.
So just to make you rethink that rowdy rating: If you use a scythe with legendary proportions as a rowdy rogue and crit? The scythe crit does 9d6, the greater vital strike does 12d6, you add 6x your str modifier to the hit, and with vital force at 19th level you add 30d6 sneak attack for a grand total of 51d6+6X str. And with a scroll of True strike it's a guaranteed hit. Average roll on that with a str 18 character (because we're still assuming no magic items and just a few scrolls) is... Hm. 202.5 damage. AVERAGE. A level 20 barbarian rolling max hp has 240 hp, for comparison. A Tarrasque has 676, one crit can average enough damage to take almost a third of the health off of the Tarrasque in ONE HIT. Even better, the theoretical maximum of that strike without magical gear? 330. Without the greater vital strike (because that's a toggle) you can STILL throw out 12d6+6X str + 10d6 sneak attack on a flanked target in range on a critical hit. On average on one out of every 10 swings you take, without any feats adding anything to it at all except improved critical and with a base weapon. Average on that with the +4 str modifier is 101. Stuff doesn't just randomly pop, it randomly explodes into a pile of salsa. I played one of these in PNP that actually had the GM request that I redo my build, they're horribly busted. Game breakingly busted. "One shot the final boss" broken if you roll right. All this before any sort of mythic feats. lol I'd put that firmly in S, personally.
@@SlanderedGaming No, thank you for the content dude. I just marathoned the whole playlist in one night and you got my number crunching mode turned on. Glad I found your channel, this series is incredible.
Master of All definitely gets my vote for Worst Overall Subclass, only beaten out by Assassin for worst potential character build. I do love Rowdy and Thug thematically, and a 1 level dip on knife master is awesome for Vivi.
Thug is one of my favorites when I multiclassed it with a bloodrager(red dragon bloodline for RP) cn who has a short fuse and loves to get into fights. Made a few mercs to rp as his family members of his crew.
Yeah I'm playing an Assassin because it's cool and fitting to my character, but like... Oh MAN is it terrible Both Poison Use and Death Attack are essentially nonfunctional - Most demons are outright immune to poison, and Death Attack is... Not something that seems to function in 99% of scenarios I have so far found one dude who I could actually assassinate, a Cambion Rogue in the Gray Garrison who isn't paying attention to your party, but who yells "Help! I'm being attacked" just as combat starts.
@@i010001 yeah it sucks ass. Executioner ironically can be a good assassin with punch daggers with real good intelligence. Man I miss the assassin class from NWN 1
At least he's being kinder than I am about the class, I'd have rated the whole lot of them F because Vivisectionist exists and makes Rogue pretty much irrelevant for anything other than multiclassing! I get it though, Rogue *functions*, it's just not the best at it's own job which was a glaring weakness of Pathfinder 1e.
@@AncroKT To be fair, I'd say even with that in mind Rowdy probably would not get an F as getting all the vital strike abilities with the extra bonus damage is extremely good and is something that Vivisectionist cannot quite do. Admittedly, this is only one archetype, but it still definitely does something that Vivisectionist can't.
It's totally subjective. He gives a lot of F's for archetypes that are really a C or D at worst. But Rogue does have a lot of archetypes that are either very good or very meh.
Tbf: Master of All is actually an upgrade, giving 3 additional feats, and loads of skills for the price of 3 Sneak Attack dies: Those 10 points of potential flat damage by endgame are really nothing to write home shout.
I wouldn't call Master of All an F rank class. You only lose the 3 ranks of sneak attack like you said but honestly that's not that bad. You can get accomplished sneak attacker to get 1 of them back and with being able to take the combat trick rogue talent an unlimited number of times, unlike in pen and paper, you aren't really feat starved. Plus there's some good skills to get skill focus in that you may not normally spend a skill focus on. Really I'd say it's more of a C. F is extremely harsh for how little gets given up.
@@oneutch4048 but it's not that weak. It's still going to perform excellent average DPR only missing effectively 2 dice of sneak attack after you take accomplished sneak attacker, which I already said is fairly easy to do with a class that's not really feat starved. 2D6 Sneak attack is on average 7 damage per hit. If you're a two weapon fighting rogue 1-20 you have 6 attacks per round. Your lowest 2 are the least likely to hit which is only 14DPR which isn't a lot with some of the insane health pools some enemies in this game get to. The class still performs extremely well on it's own and from what I can tell these classes are being ranked on their own. No mythic at play, no stupid Trickster improved improved improved crit Outflank sieze the moment fishing for attacks of opportunity bullshit. Even then it still performs well because 7 damage on an AoO won't be a drop in the bucket to the 100+ damage a hit you're probably already doing. Easy C rank class. Worse than base rogue but it's not F tier unusable for the average player which is what these videos seem to be tailored for. Edit - sorry I meant 28 dpr average on the 4 / 6 attacks that do hit. Don't know why I thought of the 2 missed ones
Off the top of my head Arcane Bomber for the Wizard. Lose the specialist school, have to take 4 opposition schools instead of 2, lose your arcane bond and all you gain is some bombs without even gaining alchemist discoveries to augment them. Give up way more than the Master of All to gain 1 thing, and no real way to gain back what it lost. If I had access to my computer I could look at everything and probably come up with an actual list because Wrath of the Righteous has a LOT of options which is nice, and very few I'd place at a solid F rank. Also if there was something I'm forgetting about the Arcane Bomber, whether it be something else they lose or a way to gain something back they lost easily, feel free to correct me. Normally I'd sit down at my computer and go through all the options but I'm at work for about the next 12 hours from posting this and wanted to reply before I forgot.
Master of All 10 - Student of War 10 wielding an ECB as a crit focused Trickster is a nice build. With Mobility and Stealth as the Greater Mythic Tricks a high bonus is both those two skills plus both knowledge skills is required. A bonus to spell resistance of +6 or to AC (effectively) of +6 are both better than 1D6 of damaged that doesn’t get multiplied on a crit. One neat thing is that because the ECB is 2-handed the increased damage from the dex boost more than makes up for the size decrease so microscopic proportions is a good spell to cast.
One of the big draws of Vital Strike is you can move and still do massive damage to enemies. Archers don't really benefit from that so while it's viable I'd say the melee version is stronger.
Gotcha. I was thinking on doing something like 11 rowdy for the feats and the rest on fighter, for Wenduag that is. To get an archer that has the option for the vital strike on bosses. And just spam multiple arrows on easier encounters. But I do see your point there.
Vital strike can easily hit multiple targets with cleaving finish. Cleaving finish will deliver full vital strike damage, not normal weapon damage. Unfortunately, a bug in improved cleaving finish (it will mostly cleave back onto an already dead target as the targets are selected by proximity and all cleaving finish attack occur in the same instant), it will seldom hit more than 1 additional target unless you understand the bug and know how to play around it, and even then, good luck hitting 4 or more targets. Also, you still get AoOs from opportunist and outflank. Also, its a standard action, not a full attack action, which is a significant advantage, and works very well with demonic charge. As for survivability, a reach weapon (you will definitely use this for reach) will do a lot more for your survivability than AC unless you can pump it very high.
@@SlanderedGaming If you are making a vital strike build, cleaving finish isnt hard to pick up at all. You can get it at level 3, or 2 as a human. You arent dual wielding like other rogues and between rogue talents and base feats, taking 3 or 5 feats for improved cleaving finish is no issue at all. What other essential feats are there that you couldn't pick up? Basically, you need blind fight, combat reflexes, outflank, improved critical. You might also want weapon focus and exotic weapon proficiency. You will also want opportunist, and maybe weaking wound to support other party members. You will have picks to spare.
Sylvan Trickster is an amazing 3-4 level dip for a tanky character. Wpn finesse, dex to damage, Debilitating Injury, Iceplant hex, a bonus feat and you only lose 1 BAB.
Damning with faint praise, but the maybe one area where Master-of-All probably ranks above an F is in a Trickster playthrough. They're one of the few classes/archetypes that can outskill a Bard (getting 5 skill points to a Bards 4 by default) and the Trickster's sneak attack bonus helps make up for what the archetype misses out on. The only downside is that they lack a couple of class skills, which might cost you a background or a couple feat picks to cover. Still, they're not the worst choice for Trickster, if you want a skill monkey and don't like maining casters. Edit: My bad, they don't even lack the class skills I thought they did, so that's not as impactful.
They can definitely make use of tricksters but I don't rank classes based on how they mesh with Mythic Paths. By itself Master of All is just not particularly good.
I would never put eldritch scoundrel so high tbh, taking this archetype sacrifices too much, and why would you take it if you can take vivisectionist and not lose any sneak attack+ get mutagen and be able to buff some self only spells on your party members. I also think saying that there's no good reward for killing an enemy with the hit that's equal to x4 enemy health is wrong, because the amount of satisfaction it gives you to one shot the boss on hard difficulty is really high, even tho it's definitely not the most efficient way to play the game. I really like all this archetypes review videos, keep it up.
I definitely agree Vivi is better than Eldritch Scoundrel but luckily the class is only being compared to Rogue which allows it to be ranked higher. :) Glad you are enjoying the content!
The way I see it eldritch scoundrel and knife master are just upgrades to rogue. Once you get scorching Ray and hell fire ray in scoundrel you can go bonkers with empower, mythic empower and cast ranged touch attack on all 6 levels, mythic trickster gets even more ranged touch spell, you'll never run out and will have very little need to use any other weapons. I stopped taking rapid shot on this build because auto attacking is only for trash mobs
You get sneak attack dice on each and every ray projectile so scorching Ray, force blast, hellfire Ray scale super hard with sneak attack and ab is better than arcane trickster
Hard disagree on Rowdy, give her a glaive and she'll happily do 80+ damage at level 3 unbuffed. Made one as a merc and almost benched her because she just kept pasting minibosses on the first turn. Rogues get feats out the eyeballs, and combat tricks always an option for the cleave line. Get some weapon focus feats in there, get fauchard proficiency, maybe a level of Viv for true strike and mutagen, and you're golden. Once you have GVS at 11 I guess you could hop into slayer for the BaB if you wanted to.
@@SlanderedGaming (weird, my edit deleted my old comment) I said "Like what?" and it sounded more curt than I meant it to, but I can't imagine doing a rowdy without a reach weapon and the cleave line. Especially now with the lunge feat. Legitimately, how are you doing the build?
Thug was good 1 level dip in kingmaker for a default kineticist on unfair. It synergised well with dreadful carnage dazzling display spam. I think people still do it for regular arcane casters to get the 1 level of sneak attack for arcane trickster. You could go alchemist but then you have an annoying second spellbook. If you make nenio into a ray caster you can take thug but I prefer underground chemist just because of course fucking nenio would set up an underground lab to try to turn meercats into clouds and end up making meth.
Arue is a Ranger not a Rogue. Woljif has a starting build that some would argue is suboptimal and he certainly cannot use any of the other Rogue archetypes. You get Seelah right at level 2 and there's not much debate about her level 1 setup.
@@SlanderedGaming I think I get what you're saying. Perhaps it's my fault for looking at rogues as generic damage dealers that open locks and disable traps.
Sylvan Trickster is broken S Tier. Loses nothing and there are some powerful combat hexes like Iceplant and Slumber. Underground Chemist is garbage tier. It's beyond redemption.
Sneak attack really more than anything else, I mean, my latest play I respec Daeren as bard with bow, and at the end he deal way more damage than Lann as Zen archer using Sense Vital (of course with all crazy tons of buffffffss), sneak attack really unbeatable by any kind of damage, but of course it has conditions that you cant do it alone. Sometimes I think those who do raw damage as fighter or even monk are just "support damage dealer", the real damage dealer are some one who are doing sneak attack.
I am LOVING These rankings. I've learned so much about this game and pathfinder classes in general! Bravo! Here's my tip for the month!
Thank you so much! Really glad you are enjoying the series!
If u pick the Cleave feats und Rowdy u can hit more than one Enemy per Turn. And the skycthe from act 2 stacks with the cleave talents, so ge get 2x cleave.
Eldritch Scoundrel - Cantrips can get sneak attack + ranged touch attack so they are useful. One downside to Eldritch Scoundrel is that Woljif is one; and you really don't need two in a party.
I know a lot of people like to multiclass Woljif so I felt like it was worth going through.
yeah I really loved Arcane Trickster in Kingmaker and honestly I think it's a touch stronger in Kingmaker but I want to be it not Woljif lolol
Hear me out on this. Rogue magus
Sylvan Trickster doesn't lose the ability to take normal Rogue Talents, they just add Witch Hexes to the list of things they can take. It's still not the best synergy but it doesn't really cost much. If you like, really want Iceplant on your rogue or something there you go.
Was going to say the same thing. Adding in hexes for a negligible cost makes them Rogue+
Was about to say the same thing
@@Nmwhat I think there's a Legend build in there somewhere. Might be tough to make work throughout the game but probably could wreck Inevitable Excess if you were something like Sylvan Trickster 10 (to grab your hexes and dispelling strike) Wizard 10 Arcane Trickster 10 and the maybe 10 Ranger Demonslayer levels or some other full BAB class just to pump your to-hit. Then you can throw out lowly Magic Missiles that make like 5 Dispel Attempts or Scorching or Hellfire Rays that do serious sneak damage and also dispel. Can throw in a few more Sylvan Trickster levels for Crippling Strike or whatever else you like. With Hare Familiar from Wizard, (Mythic) Improved Initiative, Pickpocket, Sorcerous Reflex, and the Destructive Dispel/Dispel Synergy stuff you have really good alpha strike potential. Would just be miserable for about 15 levels in the middle there.
From my perspective adding hexes does not do anything for the Rogue kit while the loss of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge is slightly impactful so I rank it a B- which is only slightly lower than the B Rogue has. I think this ranking takes into account that they don't lose Rogue Talents.
getting to roll twice potentially every time you roll or your enemy rolls inc ombat and taking whichever result benefits you most is pretty rad if you're building for it tbh. But you'd only EVER need it in a solo run.
I'm in the middle of a run where I did Rowdy 1/Witch of the Veil 4/Arcane Trickster 2 (and I'm going back to Witch of the Veil until I get her teleport ability) Works pretty well constantly turning invisible, one shotting an enemy, turning back invisible, one shotting an enemy, etc.
Thanks for doing all of these archetype reviews! They are very helpful.
My pleasure!
So, you raise some good points about Rowdy's limitations. But I also raise you Improved Cleaving finish will carry the vital strike dice over to all cleaves. Also your job is to assassinate the tank. Or anyone for that matter, but with legendary proportions those cleaving finishes can be pretty gnarly my dude.
I agree but I think Improved Cleaving Finish is a pretty steep feat sacrifice. Hard to say the class won't miss other vital mechanics by going that route.
@@SlanderedGaming yes, but. other than 4 levels of fighter, 3 levels of loremaster can get you cleaving finish and improved without needing power attack or cleave, if you're being like that. you only /need/ 11 levels of rowdy. admittedly thats how I like to do it, I think you can do this with trickster perception 3 as well, or knowledge 3 whichever trick lets you ignore feat requirements, that is another route which can be pretty opportunistic if you dont want to go loremaster. there's options and it's niche. thumbs ups!
(But YOU DO NEED cleaving finish and improved cleaving finish, you can take improved cleaving finish solo with loremaster but it won't work without cleaving finish to trigger it. also because you only need 11 levels of rogue you have a lot of freedom to take dips, (maybe *I* should make a video haha, and explore this further, but this is probably a legit good opportunity for a vivisectionist rogue and maybe even a monk dip. :D
Point: When the Rowdy isn't nuking the boss, and it is ABSOLUTELY nuking the boss, you just turn off vital strike and it's decimating the front line with sneak attacks. Especially when hit with enlarge person or legendary proportions for some reach, it gets pretty gross pretty fast. And it might miss the boss? Cool, that's what true strike is for. They do get use magic device, right? Don't even need a caster to do that to them, just cast the scroll and run up.
I'd say it's S as well, because if the boss can be sneak attacked it's getting killed pretty quick and if it's not a single target you can still just be a basic rogue doing basic rogue damage. Still nothing to sneeze at, especially if you're rocking a 2 hander and are 2 size categories larger with a scroll you picked up earlier. 4d6 damage plus 1.5x str plus sneak attack is a lot of dice to throw at a pack of mobs with a greatsword. ESPECIALLY if it crits, that's a high level sneak attack worth of damage by itself even before the sneak attack.
@@IAmAnEvilTaco plus that new feat lunge is pretty awesome for this as well
Big fan of splashing 1-3 lvls of thug onto paladin with the dreadful carnage/cornugon smash/shatter defenses feats
Yup that's a great combination.
When you were describing the Rowdy archetype I just kept thinking "Man, I don't remember this archetype working this way in Kingmaker at all!" then you got to Thug and I realized Rowdy wasn't in Kingmaker lol
I did a Knife Master playthrough in Kingmaker that I played very similarly to how Rowdy is designed and it was incredibly effective, but you're absolutely right about large group combat being a glaring weakness for a character that specializes in the Vital Strike feats.
I wonder if the reason the Chemist archetype exists is that you're meant to pair them with a character that is fully invested in Alchemist so that they can share their brews with them?
I doubt that would be any better than just creating a Grenadier that doesn't need to spend time crafting flasks and potions, as you mentioned, but maybe that would make it viable?
I'm still at least a year out until I have time to install Wrath, let alone play it, so this is entirely speculation lol
Nice that Knife Master build does sound effective. I honestly don't see the point of Chemist because bombs scale with the Alchemist' level. Multiclassing just doesn't make much sense.
Something they don't bring up is the SKILLS per level - Eldritch Scoundrel has a lot less than the other archetypes.
Ahh that's a good call out thanks.
they need INT to cast which adds skill points and can balance it out
8:00 jeez man you need a hug. I'll hug you.....promise.
Do agree on fear though and there are was to herd them. Plus it's a pretty easy way to lock people down. just have to be aware of it.
😂
Eldrich Scoundrel (8 lvls) + a 1 lvl dip in Vivisectionist + a 1 lvl dip in Eldrich Archer + 10 lvls in Arcane Trickster and you nuke enemies in turn-based, why you might ask? well, you get a heavy crossbow in your arms and every time you do a scorching ray/hellfire ray you also do your attacks with the crossbow and with around 8-9 dice of sneak attack you end up doing a huge load of dmg as long as you do an impromptu sneak attack or the enemy is flatfooted. You can also do this with a longbow rather than a crossbow, but you need lots of dex and intelligence already so adding str to get some more dmg bonus from composite longbows might end up as a hassle especially if you play as a kitsune (like I did)
Its a short duration buff, but sense vitals more than offsets the reduced sneak attack for Eldritch scoundrel.
since bard has that Spell, basically bard can just use crossbow do sneak and high crit crossbow damage, never need to invest any points on Str8,
Sense Vital really makes huge different for class has less damage.
@@violau8550 and 24 hr sense vitals basically bypasses the need for the rogue classes entirely :D
@@WildFungus man, im gonna do that!! Sneaky Bard! Now i remember the sniper Silent in Solid Snake 5, humming and sniping.
I was waiting for this video - thank you, sir.
My pleasure!
I've found that vital strike suffers a little in this game because of the way it handles swift actions. This game treats swift actions almost like immediate actions, and even lets you do a full attack action after using a swift action. One of the best use cases for the feat in the tabletop game is when you're running a build that uses a lot of swift actions, since full attacks are full round actions.
Oh wow that is interesting to note. Thanks!
I saw Rowdy and was like, "That seems ridiculously good"
You aren't distributing damage, but it's perhaps the strongest surprise-round ambusher available. Since you only get a standard action in a Surprise Round, this lets you open with an arrow shot which combines Vital Stike and Sneak Attack and just... Eliminates whatever needs to die most pressingly. At times, I'm finding I can even kill one enemy and then disappear, then come back to snipe again. I think that's it's true power - The fact that you can unleash your full power in a surprise round - and that lets you do some really silly things. Also, it's a good use of Vanish Potions. You can drink one, disappear, and then Vital Strike an enemy.
I gave Wenduag levels in it, and have not regretted it at all. She's carried my party through the early parts of the game, and remains a primary damage dealer.
...It also really bizarrely gives you Vital Strike like 5 levels before you're supposed to get it, which is strange from a design standpoint and could probably be used for some shenanigans, build-wise
That's definitely true the surprise round aspect is really helpful.
Rowdy is /the/ strongest class in the game at level 1 imo. Give Wenduag one level of rowdy or make a Rowdy archer character and you will one shot every single enemy you ambush in chapter 1.
Unfortunately, pure Rowdy by about level 8 has lost most of its advantage and by level 12 or so is pretty mediocre. The reality of multiple attacks catches up fast. A melee Rowdy at level 12 makes one attack, maybe hitting a few other targets with Cleaving Finish or whatever. A level 12 Rogue with Haste, a racial bite attack, two weapon fighting, and a Skald granted bite attack will make 8 attacks, each single one of which can get a dispel chance and do either STR or CON damage. The scale tips fast.
I like giving graybor 11 levels in rowdy since you get him at 9 slayer.
Death knell! Yes!!!! Another great vid! When I start any game of this type I automatically think about a rogue run. Didn’t this time though but this has me thinking for next run.
There are absolutely some really nice Rogue options in this game.
You forgot to add the Sylvan Trickster rating at the end summary. Cheers for this awesome series!
Yeah I noticed that will be more careful on the next one thanks.
I have not agreed with everything you've said, (which is a compliment by the way), so watching all of these and gaining a different perspective from my own in some cases has been a LOT of fun.
Thank you! Glad you have been enjoying them.
Been playing around with Woljif and rogue archs and I have to say that Rowdy is an underappreciated ranged class. Ranged Vital Strike may reduce your amount of attacks, but you will hit like a monster truck and it's less of a downside than if you were melee. If going ranged, I'd raise the ranking to an A+.
I like giving characters 1 of rowdy so they get sneak attack plus vital strike for when they have to move and then attack
Yup it is a good dip.
Knife Master is my favorite to run in this game for an Azata with a Starknife, only thing missing is the Desna Divine Fighting style feat line and it would be perfect to me.
Nice I have never used the Starknife's before.
LMAO, you can role play as Chucky! Good one!
I love thug. There was this awesome rp run I did where I did 4 dips on thug and Bloodrager with red dragon bloodline CN who has a short fuse and loves to get into fights cause of the blood of the red dragon in him. When enemies see this guy in a fight they will freak the hell out. Made some mercs for this kind of rp where he has a crew of his own to cause trouble to the cultists.
Also the only time I ever use chemist is for the sneak attack for my grenadier when she throws bombs.
Yeah I am a fan of Thug as well.
a note to your rowdy assessment... there is a bonus to killing single enemy; it's cleaving finish, improved cleaving finish. no mistake, it's a big investment (namely 5) but that's what those extra rogue talent feat are for...
If you kill an enemy with vital strike, and you cleave, your cleave attack is also considered a vital strike... and if you have improved cleaving finish, so as the rest of your iterative attacks. this way you can even attack more then 4 times.
for maximum carnage, this works well with demon mythic path's Demonic Charge... Charge as a move action; blast everyone around you with unholy damage and get them closer to low health... Use a reach weapon for maximum effectiveness... and vital strike one enemy; watch as you cleave all of them for massive damage.
I definitely agree that Cleave solves the issue I brought up but like you mentioned it's a HUGE feat investment so that's why I didn't mention it. If you go that route you will almost certainly most out on other crucial mechanics.
Underground Chemist is also pretty amazing if you're taking a single level to qualify for the Arcane Trickster PrC. Basically, free brew potion, for stuff you're not really going to miss since you're just taking one level in rogue.
On Vital Strike: In my opinion, it's best use is on classes with 2/3 attack bonus progression, excluding the rogue. Reason: You don't get as many attacks as a Fighter would, and your attack bonus is lower, making it difficult to hit on followup attacks. A warpriest, like the Lich's Staunton Vale companion, can make excellent use of the Vital Strike feat line to deliver massive damage reliably. I do not like it on rogues, though, because the sneak attack damage will far outperform what Vital Strike can contribute. Vital Strike is also great for moving and striking if you don't have a mount.
Yup both great points that I agree with.
yeah but you can get 3x sneak attack dice on a vital strike rowdy rogue is probbaly the best single target damage dealer in the game it's just single target target damage dealing isn't that useful
take great cleave with vital strike and your single target problems are easily solved . works good on staunton vhane making him serviceable as a damage dealer late game
How can you use both great cleave and vital strike at the same time?
@@pawep2966 you can't but cleaving finish is passive
Cleaving Finish does solve the problem but it's also a steep feat sacrifice that could cause you to miss out on other vital mechanics.
i disagree with the Rowdy, he essentially gains access to better additional attacks (better because you use your highest BAB, and it's standard action) WAY before a character would normally get it (on the 1lv you deal damage like a 7th level character, on 6th level you deal damage like an 11th level character and so on), AND you can make one of the most powerful Damage-wise build in the game, just in act 2, with this class.
You go Rowdy Rogue, you get a "wide sweep" scythe ("Whenever this +2 scythe lands a hit, it deals its weapon damage to all adjacent enemies."), and you get cleaving finish and mythic cleave, and if i'm correct, that scythe's ability procs cleaving finish, so you use vital strike, to which you get A HUGE DMG buff (because of 2d6 sneak attacks), you use it on a weak enemy, kill it by dealing, let's say 100DMG, and automatically you deal 100dmg to all nearby enemies (scythe's ability), and another 100dmg to one enemy (cleaving finish), WHICH DEALS ANOTHER 100dmg TO ALL NEARBY ENEMIES (scythe's ability), and it repeats until no enemy dies or no one is left.
That system does address my concern but it requires a huge feat investment and players can easily miss the weapon. That wouldn't change my ranking.
@@SlanderedGaming I don't think you can miss this weapon, it's bought from wilcer garm, and you have access to his shop for the whole game.
But you're right about huge feat investment.
So if I may think of vital strike as the right fest line for mid attack bonus characters, if they're a 3/4 attack bonus or less then using vital strike increases your damage output by increasing strike rate while losing between 0 and 25% damage (up to 50% damage potential if a full attack duel wielding), precision damage is less effective (Like bane sneak attack etc), but one of the best classes for vital strike is the war priest. I also normally take that feat line on Camilla if I need her to be my front line fighter in the early/mid game.
Yes I think it makes a lot of sense for Camellia and Staunton Vhane.
After this series is done would be cool do a summary vid with all the best (A-S) and worst (D-F) classes. 👍
Rogue would be up there for some of the worst in the game. No reason in this game to pick any rogue when the other classes are just better.
Yup I plan to do that.
@@aylictal Yep I take Slayer for all Rogue needs.
@@JockoJonson17 why not just greater enduring sense vitals lol
Another great video and I really enjoy it very much.I would like some of your well appreciated advice, if you was building a lock picking trap finding dual wielding character which class would be best?And thank you in advance
Thank you! I would probably go with Vivisectionist.
@@SlanderedGaming he's right it's a good do everything, but you don't even need to take it to twenty it does better as a multiclass thing generally speaking.
So just to make you rethink that rowdy rating: If you use a scythe with legendary proportions as a rowdy rogue and crit? The scythe crit does 9d6, the greater vital strike does 12d6, you add 6x your str modifier to the hit, and with vital force at 19th level you add 30d6 sneak attack for a grand total of 51d6+6X str. And with a scroll of True strike it's a guaranteed hit. Average roll on that with a str 18 character (because we're still assuming no magic items and just a few scrolls) is... Hm. 202.5 damage. AVERAGE. A level 20 barbarian rolling max hp has 240 hp, for comparison. A Tarrasque has 676, one crit can average enough damage to take almost a third of the health off of the Tarrasque in ONE HIT. Even better, the theoretical maximum of that strike without magical gear? 330.
Without the greater vital strike (because that's a toggle) you can STILL throw out 12d6+6X str + 10d6 sneak attack on a flanked target in range on a critical hit. On average on one out of every 10 swings you take, without any feats adding anything to it at all except improved critical and with a base weapon. Average on that with the +4 str modifier is 101. Stuff doesn't just randomly pop, it randomly explodes into a pile of salsa. I played one of these in PNP that actually had the GM request that I redo my build, they're horribly busted. Game breakingly busted. "One shot the final boss" broken if you roll right. All this before any sort of mythic feats.
lol I'd put that firmly in S, personally.
That a nice breakdown thanks. I'll revisit this for the final list.
@@SlanderedGaming No, thank you for the content dude. I just marathoned the whole playlist in one night and you got my number crunching mode turned on. Glad I found your channel, this series is incredible.
Master of All definitely gets my vote for Worst Overall Subclass, only beaten out by Assassin for worst potential character build. I do love Rowdy and Thug thematically, and a 1 level dip on knife master is awesome for Vivi.
Thug is one of my favorites when I multiclassed it with a bloodrager(red dragon bloodline for RP) cn who has a short fuse and loves to get into fights. Made a few mercs to rp as his family members of his crew.
Yeah I'm playing an Assassin because it's cool and fitting to my character, but like... Oh MAN is it terrible
Both Poison Use and Death Attack are essentially nonfunctional - Most demons are outright immune to poison, and Death Attack is... Not something that seems to function in 99% of scenarios
I have so far found one dude who I could actually assassinate, a Cambion Rogue in the Gray Garrison who isn't paying attention to your party, but who yells "Help! I'm being attacked" just as combat starts.
@@i010001 yeah it sucks ass. Executioner ironically can be a good assassin with punch daggers with real good intelligence. Man I miss the assassin class from NWN 1
Big oof for Rouge for having two F Archetypes.
At least he's being kinder than I am about the class, I'd have rated the whole lot of them F because Vivisectionist exists and makes Rogue pretty much irrelevant for anything other than multiclassing! I get it though, Rogue *functions*, it's just not the best at it's own job which was a glaring weakness of Pathfinder 1e.
@@AncroKT To be fair, I'd say even with that in mind Rowdy probably would not get an F as getting all the vital strike abilities with the extra bonus damage is extremely good and is something that Vivisectionist cannot quite do. Admittedly, this is only one archetype, but it still definitely does something that Vivisectionist can't.
It's totally subjective. He gives a lot of F's for archetypes that are really a C or D at worst. But Rogue does have a lot of archetypes that are either very good or very meh.
rogue is just entirely invalidated by mythic options and spells
Tbf: Master of All is actually an upgrade, giving 3 additional feats, and loads of skills for the price of 3 Sneak Attack dies: Those 10 points of potential flat damage by endgame are really nothing to write home shout.
I wouldn't call Master of All an F rank class. You only lose the 3 ranks of sneak attack like you said but honestly that's not that bad. You can get accomplished sneak attacker to get 1 of them back and with being able to take the combat trick rogue talent an unlimited number of times, unlike in pen and paper, you aren't really feat starved. Plus there's some good skills to get skill focus in that you may not normally spend a skill focus on. Really I'd say it's more of a C. F is extremely harsh for how little gets given up.
The problem is it doesn't give anything that helps with combat in a class that is already weak so... An F well deserved.
@@oneutch4048 but it's not that weak. It's still going to perform excellent average DPR only missing effectively 2 dice of sneak attack after you take accomplished sneak attacker, which I already said is fairly easy to do with a class that's not really feat starved. 2D6 Sneak attack is on average 7 damage per hit. If you're a two weapon fighting rogue 1-20 you have 6 attacks per round. Your lowest 2 are the least likely to hit which is only 14DPR which isn't a lot with some of the insane health pools some enemies in this game get to. The class still performs extremely well on it's own and from what I can tell these classes are being ranked on their own. No mythic at play, no stupid Trickster improved improved improved crit Outflank sieze the moment fishing for attacks of opportunity bullshit. Even then it still performs well because 7 damage on an AoO won't be a drop in the bucket to the 100+ damage a hit you're probably already doing. Easy C rank class. Worse than base rogue but it's not F tier unusable for the average player which is what these videos seem to be tailored for.
Edit - sorry I meant 28 dpr average on the 4 / 6 attacks that do hit. Don't know why I thought of the 2 missed ones
F is for the worst classes in the game. What classes would you rank lower than Master of All?
Off the top of my head Arcane Bomber for the Wizard. Lose the specialist school, have to take 4 opposition schools instead of 2, lose your arcane bond and all you gain is some bombs without even gaining alchemist discoveries to augment them. Give up way more than the Master of All to gain 1 thing, and no real way to gain back what it lost.
If I had access to my computer I could look at everything and probably come up with an actual list because Wrath of the Righteous has a LOT of options which is nice, and very few I'd place at a solid F rank. Also if there was something I'm forgetting about the Arcane Bomber, whether it be something else they lose or a way to gain something back they lost easily, feel free to correct me. Normally I'd sit down at my computer and go through all the options but I'm at work for about the next 12 hours from posting this and wanted to reply before I forgot.
Master of All 10 - Student of War 10 wielding an ECB as a crit focused Trickster is a nice build. With Mobility and Stealth as the Greater Mythic Tricks a high bonus is both those two skills plus both knowledge skills is required. A bonus to spell resistance of +6 or to AC (effectively) of +6 are both better than 1D6 of damaged that doesn’t get multiplied on a crit. One neat thing is that because the ECB is 2-handed the increased damage from the dex boost more than makes up for the size decrease so microscopic proportions is a good spell to cast.
Would you consider rowdy good for an archer build? Since you gotta increase Dex over Strength there it would make up for the loss of evasion.
One of the big draws of Vital Strike is you can move and still do massive damage to enemies. Archers don't really benefit from that so while it's viable I'd say the melee version is stronger.
Gotcha. I was thinking on doing something like 11 rowdy for the feats and the rest on fighter, for Wenduag that is. To get an archer that has the option for the vital strike on bosses. And just spam multiple arrows on easier encounters. But I do see your point there.
Rowdy should be renamed to "give me alchemist with true strike". This combo should be insane
Vital strike can easily hit multiple targets with cleaving finish. Cleaving finish will deliver full vital strike damage, not normal weapon damage. Unfortunately, a bug in improved cleaving finish (it will mostly cleave back onto an already dead target as the targets are selected by proximity and all cleaving finish attack occur in the same instant), it will seldom hit more than 1 additional target unless you understand the bug and know how to play around it, and even then, good luck hitting 4 or more targets.
Also, you still get AoOs from opportunist and outflank.
Also, its a standard action, not a full attack action, which is a significant advantage, and works very well with demonic charge.
As for survivability, a reach weapon (you will definitely use this for reach) will do a lot more for your survivability than AC unless you can pump it very high.
Cleaving Finish is by no means an easy class to pick up. I would argue you have to sacrifice something the class could really use in order to get it.
@@SlanderedGaming If you are making a vital strike build, cleaving finish isnt hard to pick up at all. You can get it at level 3, or 2 as a human. You arent dual wielding like other rogues and between rogue talents and base feats, taking 3 or 5 feats for improved cleaving finish is no issue at all.
What other essential feats are there that you couldn't pick up? Basically, you need blind fight, combat reflexes, outflank, improved critical. You might also want weapon focus and exotic weapon proficiency. You will also want opportunist, and maybe weaking wound to support other party members. You will have picks to spare.
Sylvan Trickster is an amazing 3-4 level dip for a tanky character. Wpn finesse, dex to damage, Debilitating Injury, Iceplant hex, a bonus feat and you only lose 1 BAB.
He finally pronounced “death knell” correctly!!!
More resistant or higher AC, not more or less “tanky” unless that class is already a class with high damage mitigation.
Damning with faint praise, but the maybe one area where Master-of-All probably ranks above an F is in a Trickster playthrough. They're one of the few classes/archetypes that can outskill a Bard (getting 5 skill points to a Bards 4 by default) and the Trickster's sneak attack bonus helps make up for what the archetype misses out on. The only downside is that they lack a couple of class skills, which might cost you a background or a couple feat picks to cover. Still, they're not the worst choice for Trickster, if you want a skill monkey and don't like maining casters.
Edit: My bad, they don't even lack the class skills I thought they did, so that's not as impactful.
They can definitely make use of tricksters but I don't rank classes based on how they mesh with Mythic Paths. By itself Master of All is just not particularly good.
Rowdy maybe good for a kinetic night 🤔
I would never put eldritch scoundrel so high tbh, taking this archetype sacrifices too much, and why would you take it if you can take vivisectionist and not lose any sneak attack+ get mutagen and be able to buff some self only spells on your party members. I also think saying that there's no good reward for killing an enemy with the hit that's equal to x4 enemy health is wrong, because the amount of satisfaction it gives you to one shot the boss on hard difficulty is really high, even tho it's definitely not the most efficient way to play the game. I really like all this archetypes review videos, keep it up.
If only Vivi had exactly the same spellbook as Eldritch Scoundrel. Mirrors Image is really good especially early on.
I definitely agree Vivi is better than Eldritch Scoundrel but luckily the class is only being compared to Rogue which allows it to be ranked higher. :) Glad you are enjoying the content!
"Stab them in the back and laugh in their ear as they fade away"... 🤣🤣🤣
😂
it might be just my opinion, but taking ES to lv20 instead of going arcane trickster feels wrong.
LOL Both have their merits.
The way I see it eldritch scoundrel and knife master are just upgrades to rogue. Once you get scorching Ray and hell fire ray in scoundrel you can go bonkers with empower, mythic empower and cast ranged touch attack on all 6 levels, mythic trickster gets even more ranged touch spell, you'll never run out and will have very little need to use any other weapons. I stopped taking rapid shot on this build because auto attacking is only for trash mobs
You get sneak attack dice on each and every ray projectile so scorching Ray, force blast, hellfire Ray scale super hard with sneak attack and ab is better than arcane trickster
Yup I really like taking Woljif into Arcane Trickster.
So who does Rogue stuff better? Slayers?
Vivisectionist which is basically an Alchemist and a Rogue combined together.
@@SlanderedGaming I think that‘s a bit too sinister for me 😂
👍🏾👍🏾🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
I prefer a vivisectionist over any rogue.
Agreed.
I don't but they do a lot more, it's what I would want a master of all to be
Hard disagree on Rowdy, give her a glaive and she'll happily do 80+ damage at level 3 unbuffed. Made one as a merc and almost benched her because she just kept pasting minibosses on the first turn. Rogues get feats out the eyeballs, and combat tricks always an option for the cleave line. Get some weapon focus feats in there, get fauchard proficiency, maybe a level of Viv for true strike and mutagen, and you're golden. Once you have GVS at 11 I guess you could hop into slayer for the BaB if you wanted to.
Even for Rogue Cleaving Finish is a pretty steep feat sacrifice that will almost certainly require the build miss out on other crucial mechanics.
@@SlanderedGaming Like what?
@@SlanderedGaming (weird, my edit deleted my old comment) I said "Like what?" and it sounded more curt than I meant it to, but I can't imagine doing a rowdy without a reach weapon and the cleave line. Especially now with the lunge feat. Legitimately, how are you doing the build?
Thug was good 1 level dip in kingmaker for a default kineticist on unfair. It synergised well with dreadful carnage dazzling display spam. I think people still do it for regular arcane casters to get the 1 level of sneak attack for arcane trickster. You could go alchemist but then you have an annoying second spellbook. If you make nenio into a ray caster you can take thug but I prefer underground chemist just because of course fucking nenio would set up an underground lab to try to turn meercats into clouds and end up making meth.
LOL Yeah thematically there's definitely an appeal.
The argument against playing a paladin sorta stands here I think. You already get woljif and arue so why would you? Idk
Arue is a Ranger not a Rogue. Woljif has a starting build that some would argue is suboptimal and he certainly cannot use any of the other Rogue archetypes. You get Seelah right at level 2 and there's not much debate about her level 1 setup.
@@SlanderedGaming I think I get what you're saying. Perhaps it's my fault for looking at rogues as generic damage dealers that open locks and disable traps.
You took a day off. 😢... jkk
😂 Don't worry I am back.
Rogue F Minus JAJAJAJAJA
I havent watched the video yet but that rowdy rogue is pretty sick
Yeah Rowdy is really nice.
I rank rogue a V for Vivisectionist does it better
😂
Sylvan Trickster is broken S Tier. Loses nothing and there are some powerful combat hexes like Iceplant and Slumber. Underground Chemist is garbage tier. It's beyond redemption.
Trash.
Just like in the table top. The only reason anyone picks it is because cause they think it makes them edgy
Sneak attack really more than anything else, I mean, my latest play I respec Daeren as bard with bow, and at the end he deal way more damage than Lann as Zen archer using Sense Vital (of course with all crazy tons of buffffffss), sneak attack really unbeatable by any kind of damage, but of course it has conditions that you cant do it alone.
Sometimes I think those who do raw damage as fighter or even monk are just "support damage dealer", the real damage dealer are some one who are doing sneak attack.
Sneak Attack is definitely fantastic.