I often like to wait until my friendly creep is about to die to the enemy laner, then put a bit of damage on the enemy player, it often makes them panic as they kill the creep and fall into defense going for you or cover, netting you an easier deny and a little poke damage.
I see your point but I think that’s something that is present in LoL as well, if the wave is close to your tower but not under it you’re going to be at advantage. i think the right counterplay would have been for the haze to use her cover better and push the wave under the turret, where she can deny and use the cover of the stairs, hopefully resetting the wave to the middle.
Really also depends on your hero's bullet velocity. If you are Seven i.e. you might actually get them vs like Infernus even when far away because Sevens bullets are just so much faster. Bebop is ofc the master of this. All he said here doesn't apply to bebop as long as the creeps are within range of his weapon. But if you are a hero with rather slow bullets then what he said here applies double and tripple. Low bullet velocity and far away? Your gonna get denied hard.
@@AeneaSXII feel like bebop is so broken in this regard. In my games bebop just hovers his laser over my creeps and gets the souls before they even show up on my screen. Like I don’t even have an opportunity to get them. And because it’s bebop, I also cannot melee the creeps because he will hook me. There’s almost zero chance to do anything, and it irritates me quite a bit. 😣
@@shcaboose Yeah very true... I kinda feel thats one of the flaws of the game that every hero is different in terms of viability with last hitting. Valve also doesn't really seem to be balancing heroes with their last hit strength in mind, but more in regards to straight up fights. High velocity mag is also a flawed item since in theory you can get some better last hit potential from it but: If you are Infernus vs Seven i.e. even with the 20% more bullet velocity your bullets won't match seven still. And if its another matchup where you actually would now be on par or even better at last hitting all the enemy needs to do is buy the item as well and you are at a loss again. It would be nice if the last hitting of every hero would be an equal chance because to me it kills the skill factor of last hitting. If you are just as good as the enemy or even better at last hitting but you still can't win the exchanges its just beyond frustrating. Maybe they should adjust the ms time for registering the orb-kill for every hero depending on their bullet velocity so that in the end everyone is on par and skill (aim, timing & positioning) decides not some arbitrary bullet velocity...
Iv noticed this , I’ll be doing well and so pushed up that I can’t go back to buy items cause than I’ll lose the wave , so the enemy ends up getting items
You should prioritize farming medium camps 7 minutes in if you are into a position to do so or stealing the enemies small camp if the enemy backs up to heal
médium monsters give roughly the same amount of souls as minions, so getting the double value of getting your own minions and denying the enemy is actually more valuable, and you should prioritize that. you go for camps if you’re losing or if there’s no minion opportunities in the next 30s.
killing the enemy’s medium camp however, is worth it. enemy small camp only when you don’t have an opportunity for minions in the next 30 seconds as small monsters are worth half a minion.
Thats just standard MOBA rules. Fast pushing is only an advantage if you intended to take an objective or leave lane. You can be aggressive but a slow push or a freeze will always put you in a better position. Unless you think you can kill tower just last hit, deny souls, and burst your opponent any time they attempt to farm.
What would happen if you effectively freeze lane near your tower and start a slow push, and the enemy laner goes to jungle instead? Would that keep them competitive in souls if they farm effectively, or are they still losing out? Really interesting and informative vid, thanks for sharing!
If you have a good jungle hero then it's an effective response to finish your wave asap and then jugnle/ box hunt Also matters which jungle you have nearby
I looked the replay and the infernus ended up with 44k total souls while haze did 42k, not that different, but infernus was 6/10/10 while haze 4/9/6 probably not very good score for a haze.
Wait he died 10 Times? Rarely died that much as bebop 12 streaks to 15 streaks is on daily basis Not trying to kill if not have 80% break free planning
@@jeankristein3238it really depends when and how you died. Like I will put myself in risk of death if I know I can take a Guardian or Walker by myself as Infernus that my team is struggling to take. Not feeding is important but it’s not the only thing that matters imo Dying after laning phase doesn’t reward that many souls and the souls/flex slot/lane is often more important than just not dying. Of course, context matters. If half my team is dead and I don’t have any idea where the enemy team is, I won’t do this. Meanwhile, you’re not a good Bebop player if you positioning isn’t on point. Although I’m not out here giving YT tutorials so this dude should get more scrutiny than my noob ass.
When's the earliest you think about leaving your lane to try and get a gank in another? I can win my lane pretty consistently, but I feel like every time I leave (even with communication) the lane I'm going to ends up getting pushed and the rotation was useless, giving my opponent time to catch up while I can hope for some souls from boxes or a small/medium camp depending on who I'm playing
You can back up behind your tower, that's a fairly safe position where it is hard for them to hit you. Then counter shove it to the top of your ramp. Note that this strategy doesn't work well if your opponent has AoE bombs (Geist, Kelvin, Paradox, Viscous, etc.) they can use when you're trying to hide behind cover. Against those characters you'll need to play more aggressively to push them back and create space for your to dodge their bombs.
Its called freezing, and the best way to counter it is by breaking it by pushing it under your tower. The way you can combat this is by matching their push if possible, meaning when they start killing your minions, you should be killing their minions at the same speed, or at least trimming the wave a bit so they dont get a whole wave under your tower
I main Geist and going into the middle can be dicey because she lacks a character like Infernus' mobility. Her bullet velocity also helps to close the gap. That being said, I'm going to experiment with getting closer since she's pretty bulky, especially if I get melee lifesteal. Great video!
yeah but the speed of your bullet is important when you try to deny or take the creep. And when i play talon front haze for example is not a fair battle....
Top players don't go closer depending on their hero and match up, or if after à minute or two fpthey feel outskilled in that département. The reason is that if you get hit too often, you'll have to back off even more. Worse, you might die or be forced to leave the lane. A 50/50 from afar is much better than 0 because you are dead or almost.
yea I noticed this in one of the tourney players recent vod review, when hes going inf against krill or any of the losing match ups, its better to be 5050 and play deny from there, punish ofc when they are out of pos. I actually implemented the strat in the vids against losing matchups, while it gets me equal souls but they got aggressive and dmg my guardian hard, thus I think so myself too.
Fortunately, the narrator had a lot of great insights to laning mechanics and strategies that will guarantee more wins. Thanks for the great video and I look forward to more content like this.
Ive been in sweaty mmr lobbier for a few weeks now and so many people use this thing me and my friends call "the pussy strat" where you intentionally always keep the lane pushed up to your side because the map favors you so much more and you are close to the creeps. Plus if the enemy wants to pressure you they are forced to be out in the open. And everytime you want them to stop doing this you effectively have to sacrifice a wave of creeps for them to kill freely.
Check how quickly someone is killing their lane and then adjust your damage output accordingly. If you see someone just go for the last hit, don't push
I don't want to be a hater, but this is the one aspect of this game that I've really not enjoyed so far - It's pretty dumb that exerting pressure and being dominant in your lane actually puts your opponent in a better position than you. It's pretty anti-gameplay. Why would I want to take risks and control the space if all it does is put my opponent in an advantageous position to outfarm me? Where this leads, eventually, is everyone playing passively and AFK so they don't just give their opponent a free advantage.
This is just his philosophy for laning. The top players in the world are not using this strategy, and instead they try to take out the enemy tower in less than 5 mins when possible, so they are freed up to farm nearby jungle as well as roam to help nearby lanes as well. Another flaw with this approach is that on the chance that you do die with the lane close to your tower, you will lose a lot more farm due to minions dying to your turret, and your turret will also take a lot more damage because the wave was close when you died. I think you can take the approach of playing safe and focusing heavily on last hitting the minions from nearby cover, while still pressuring the enemy under their tower. This way it's easier to last hit minions because they are now forced to shoot them before their tower does, and you can also get a lot of free damage if they get too close or try to melee the minions under their tower. You don't need to let the wave idle on your side unless you are anticipating a gank from the enemy soon.
Another flaw with this videos approach is that he is further delaying his teams flex slot unlocks, and giving the enemy team more time to safely farm their jungle because they have the safety of a nearby tower. Conversely if you take the enemy tower early, it's easier to take their jungle, and you get flex slots/bonus souls from the tower going down, you have more map vision, and you deny the enemy shop in their lane. Imo you are giving up way too much by playing this passive and it just means your games will go longer, and that soul lead means less and less over time.
In MOBAs pushing in creeps denies last hits because the tower kills the creeps. You can push and harass while the defender is focused on last hits. You can push and roam. Frozen lanes break eventually or can be broken with help. Don't push mindlessly when enemies are missing.
You are wrong. When enemy is playing passively it's something you can take an advantage of. You can always poke someone, push guardians, gank, collect crates. I never had a single game where staying AFK was a proper play. The only reason why Infernus is able to do this is because Haze is scared to come up.
That could probably be because none of the current pros are moba players, just because they do something doesn't mean it is the optimal strategy. This is a new game and there will be multiple schools of thinking. As a dota player what's being said in this video makes perfect sense to me and will lead you to winning your lane hard.
I just farm till get 15k Then i just always looking to make art Only 10 seconds max in combat Then zip back and check map Look for red creeps in bulk and become the art Back in combat making art Explosion is art BeDeidaraBop
I often like to wait until my friendly creep is about to die to the enemy laner, then put a bit of damage on the enemy player, it often makes them panic as they kill the creep and fall into defense going for you or cover, netting you an easier deny and a little poke damage.
Amd if they push, look for opportunity to punish! They cant shoot 2 targets at once
I see your point but I think that’s something that is present in LoL as well, if the wave is close to your tower but not under it you’re going to be at advantage. i think the right counterplay would have been for the haze to use her cover better and push the wave under the turret, where she can deny and use the cover of the stairs, hopefully resetting the wave to the middle.
this info worked for me, in the past 10 games was leading in souls in almost every game, thank you
Good vibes, just good vibes right out of the gate. Some great tips as well, thanks for the level up, greatly appreciated!
My toxic trait is thinking I'll always get the soul balls even when further away.
Really also depends on your hero's bullet velocity. If you are Seven i.e. you might actually get them vs like Infernus even when far away because Sevens bullets are just so much faster. Bebop is ofc the master of this. All he said here doesn't apply to bebop as long as the creeps are within range of his weapon.
But if you are a hero with rather slow bullets then what he said here applies double and tripple. Low bullet velocity and far away? Your gonna get denied hard.
@@AeneaSXII feel like bebop is so broken in this regard. In my games bebop just hovers his laser over my creeps and gets the souls before they even show up on my screen. Like I don’t even have an opportunity to get them. And because it’s bebop, I also cannot melee the creeps because he will hook me.
There’s almost zero chance to do anything, and it irritates me quite a bit. 😣
@@shcaboose Yeah very true... I kinda feel thats one of the flaws of the game that every hero is different in terms of viability with last hitting.
Valve also doesn't really seem to be balancing heroes with their last hit strength in mind, but more in regards to straight up fights. High velocity mag is also a flawed item since in theory you can get some better last hit potential from it but: If you are Infernus vs Seven i.e. even with the 20% more bullet velocity your bullets won't match seven still. And if its another matchup where you actually would now be on par or even better at last hitting all the enemy needs to do is buy the item as well and you are at a loss again.
It would be nice if the last hitting of every hero would be an equal chance because to me it kills the skill factor of last hitting. If you are just as good as the enemy or even better at last hitting but you still can't win the exchanges its just beyond frustrating.
Maybe they should adjust the ms time for registering the orb-kill for every hero depending on their bullet velocity so that in the end everyone is on par and skill (aim, timing & positioning) decides not some arbitrary bullet velocity...
Iv noticed this , I’ll be doing well and so pushed up that I can’t go back to buy items cause than I’ll lose the wave , so the enemy ends up getting items
Best laning guide I've ever seen, hands down
You should prioritize farming medium camps 7 minutes in if you are into a position to do so or stealing the enemies small camp if the enemy backs up to heal
médium monsters give roughly the same amount of souls as minions, so getting the double value of getting your own minions and denying the enemy is actually more valuable, and you should prioritize that. you go for camps if you’re losing or if there’s no minion opportunities in the next 30s.
killing the enemy’s medium camp however, is worth it. enemy small camp only when you don’t have an opportunity for minions in the next 30 seconds as small monsters are worth half a minion.
creep waves usually give more souls than camps
@@noobvsprominecraftbuild okay but what if you have no creeps to kill and they are spawning in?
@@Crankulite yes if there are no creeps then you should get the camps
great guide
Thats just standard MOBA rules.
Fast pushing is only an advantage if you intended to take an objective or leave lane.
You can be aggressive but a slow push or a freeze will always put you in a better position. Unless you think you can kill tower just last hit, deny souls, and burst your opponent any time they attempt to farm.
I love to see u on deadlock aswell
Loved the vid! Learned a lot, thank you!
What would happen if you effectively freeze lane near your tower and start a slow push, and the enemy laner goes to jungle instead? Would that keep them competitive in souls if they farm effectively, or are they still losing out?
Really interesting and informative vid, thanks for sharing!
If you have a good jungle hero then it's an effective response to finish your wave asap and then jugnle/ box hunt
Also matters which jungle you have nearby
Good advice. Talk about things other people ignore.
can you talk about duo lanes next, i wanna know if theres anything new i should be doing that i havnt thought about
Haze just made more mistakes. That charged melee into 2 creeps in the open was so bad.
I looked the replay and the infernus ended up with 44k total souls while haze did 42k, not that different, but infernus was 6/10/10 while haze 4/9/6 probably not very good score for a haze.
Haze probably farmed all game to try to recover. End game souls says nothing about the lane
Wait he died 10 Times?
Rarely died that much as bebop
12 streaks to 15 streaks is on daily basis
Not trying to kill if not have 80% break free planning
@@jeankristein3238it really depends when and how you died. Like I will put myself in risk of death if I know I can take a Guardian or Walker by myself as Infernus that my team is struggling to take. Not feeding is important but it’s not the only thing that matters imo
Dying after laning phase doesn’t reward that many souls and the souls/flex slot/lane is often more important than just not dying. Of course, context matters. If half my team is dead and I don’t have any idea where the enemy team is, I won’t do this.
Meanwhile, you’re not a good Bebop player if you positioning isn’t on point.
Although I’m not out here giving YT tutorials so this dude should get more scrutiny than my noob ass.
Thank you, i won my game.
Holy shjiiit, my UA-cam dota coatch, om the D-Lock train.
Brooooken videos incomming!
When's the earliest you think about leaving your lane to try and get a gank in another?
I can win my lane pretty consistently, but I feel like every time I leave (even with communication) the lane I'm going to ends up getting pushed and the rotation was useless, giving my opponent time to catch up while I can hope for some souls from boxes or a small/medium camp depending on who I'm playing
How do you static the wave if the opponent hard shoves the wave? I can't tank the creeps too long
You can back up behind your tower, that's a fairly safe position where it is hard for them to hit you. Then counter shove it to the top of your ramp.
Note that this strategy doesn't work well if your opponent has AoE bombs (Geist, Kelvin, Paradox, Viscous, etc.) they can use when you're trying to hide behind cover. Against those characters you'll need to play more aggressively to push them back and create space for your to dodge their bombs.
don't call it staticing please, it's called freezing
Its called freezing, and the best way to counter it is by breaking it by pushing it under your tower. The way you can combat this is by matching their push if possible, meaning when they start killing your minions, you should be killing their minions at the same speed, or at least trimming the wave a bit so they dont get a whole wave under your tower
To be that close when you against infernus is hard
The burn is so pain
I main Geist and going into the middle can be dicey because she lacks a character like Infernus' mobility. Her bullet velocity also helps to close the gap.
That being said, I'm going to experiment with getting closer since she's pretty bulky, especially if I get melee lifesteal. Great video!
I played same position as Haze, but walked up to stairs and just poke enemy and deny. So I belive IT is just Haze mistake
You should challenge this infernus to a lane battle
yeah but the speed of your bullet is important when you try to deny or take the creep.
And when i play talon front haze for example is not a fair battle....
Top players don't go closer depending on their hero and match up, or if after à minute or two fpthey feel outskilled in that département.
The reason is that if you get hit too often, you'll have to back off even more. Worse, you might die or be forced to leave the lane.
A 50/50 from afar is much better than 0 because you are dead or almost.
Well, good thing I am not a top player and most top player won't be listening to him.
yea I noticed this in one of the tourney players recent vod review, when hes going inf against krill or any of the losing match ups, its better to be 5050 and play deny from there, punish ofc when they are out of pos. I actually implemented the strat in the vids against losing matchups, while it gets me equal souls but they got aggressive and dmg my guardian hard, thus I think so myself too.
Fortunately, the narrator had a lot of great insights to laning mechanics and strategies that will guarantee more wins. Thanks for the great video and I look forward to more content like this.
Ive been in sweaty mmr lobbier for a few weeks now and so many people use this thing me and my friends call "the pussy strat" where you intentionally always keep the lane pushed up to your side because the map favors you so much more and you are close to the creeps. Plus if the enemy wants to pressure you they are forced to be out in the open. And everytime you want them to stop doing this you effectively have to sacrifice a wave of creeps for them to kill freely.
Check how quickly someone is killing their lane and then adjust your damage output accordingly. If you see someone just go for the last hit, don't push
it's called freezing bruh
SPEEEEEEEED
USE THIS SECRET METHOD TO WIN EVERY LANE!! Select Infernus on hero select! It's that easy!
Your noob is showing
@@TylerSmith-oz7ryfr, infernus isn’t even that great in lane. Pretty easy to lane against if you just LoS him to avoid after burn
Take out minion healer first try to dmg player and last hit minion
So standing close is "only" advantageous because of damage drop off and bullet velocity?
well, bullet velocity, ping, orb size, and "ties" favoring the last hitter (if a soul orb is hit within relatively the same time, it goes to the LHer)
@@josh___somethingwhy would ping matter
It's easier to aim and also you can melee which is easier to aim imo
@@lukkkasz323 If the game is on 200ms ping, the soul orb registering your bullet hitting would be delayed by 200ms
@@josh___something yeah but this has nothing to do with standing close
I don't want to be a hater, but this is the one aspect of this game that I've really not enjoyed so far - It's pretty dumb that exerting pressure and being dominant in your lane actually puts your opponent in a better position than you. It's pretty anti-gameplay. Why would I want to take risks and control the space if all it does is put my opponent in an advantageous position to outfarm me? Where this leads, eventually, is everyone playing passively and AFK so they don't just give their opponent a free advantage.
This is just his philosophy for laning. The top players in the world are not using this strategy, and instead they try to take out the enemy tower in less than 5 mins when possible, so they are freed up to farm nearby jungle as well as roam to help nearby lanes as well. Another flaw with this approach is that on the chance that you do die with the lane close to your tower, you will lose a lot more farm due to minions dying to your turret, and your turret will also take a lot more damage because the wave was close when you died. I think you can take the approach of playing safe and focusing heavily on last hitting the minions from nearby cover, while still pressuring the enemy under their tower. This way it's easier to last hit minions because they are now forced to shoot them before their tower does, and you can also get a lot of free damage if they get too close or try to melee the minions under their tower. You don't need to let the wave idle on your side unless you are anticipating a gank from the enemy soon.
Another flaw with this videos approach is that he is further delaying his teams flex slot unlocks, and giving the enemy team more time to safely farm their jungle because they have the safety of a nearby tower. Conversely if you take the enemy tower early, it's easier to take their jungle, and you get flex slots/bonus souls from the tower going down, you have more map vision, and you deny the enemy shop in their lane. Imo you are giving up way too much by playing this passive and it just means your games will go longer, and that soul lead means less and less over time.
In MOBAs pushing in creeps denies last hits because the tower kills the creeps. You can push and harass while the defender is focused on last hits. You can push and roam. Frozen lanes break eventually or can be broken with help. Don't push mindlessly when enemies are missing.
You are wrong. When enemy is playing passively it's something you can take an advantage of. You can always poke someone, push guardians, gank, collect crates. I never had a single game where staying AFK was a proper play.
The only reason why Infernus is able to do this is because Haze is scared to come up.
That could probably be because none of the current pros are moba players, just because they do something doesn't mean it is the optimal strategy. This is a new game and there will be multiple schools of thinking. As a dota player what's being said in this video makes perfect sense to me and will lead you to winning your lane hard.
I can tell you were a dota player lol. A lot of the people ive met on deadlock suprisnignly havent played
Post rank
well if you are only denying do you really need monster rounds? its like 2-3 bullets per crip
I just farm till get 15k
Then i just always looking to make art
Only 10 seconds max in combat
Then zip back and check map
Look for red creeps in bulk and become the art
Back in combat making art
Explosion is art
BeDeidaraBop
🤣
Dude is playing infernus and dominating the lane that’s not teachable that’s EXPECTED