I'm wondering how many of the outstanding issues could be fixed by updating the App after release. When you have such dependence on a piece of software there's greater scope for delivering errata to the players.
Scott Manley The equivalent of fixing your staging after launch. 😉 Also now i'm confused if i would prefer to see a KSP-themed expansion of this game or a "first martians"-mod in KSP.
I'm definitely glad that all the reviews started rolling in in time for me to cancel my preorder for this. I love the idea of this game, so I'm hopeful that it will be fixed with updates to the app, and or a second edition.
I'm afraid that in this case the issues seems mostly to be the fundamental design of the game. If you have to place 2-3 action tokens on repair actions every turn, and another 2-3 on healing astronauts only then you only have 0-2 tokens left for meaningful choices/actions. Which is not something you want to have happen. Having the game basically play itself or just flatout losing the game is not something interesting or fun. And much as I would love to believe just changing some stuff in the app would fix that. Looking at a board that consists of mostly subsystems that constantly break do not make me believe this can be fixed in this way for this game. For another game with a tablet, sure, not this one though, the design and all components are just too geared towards this maitaining of the base. Also hadn't expected you to be watching SU&SD, glad to be wrong though :) .
Very true, it probably depends a lot on how well supported the app is/how the contract works between the board game and software companies. A lot of the phone implementations of board games don't seem to get a lot of updates unfortunately which is a bit of a missed opportunity
It is admirable that the designer is active on the BGG forums, but even after all the criticisms from both the preorder players and reviewers (SU&SD, No Pun Included and others) he is still adamant that the rulebook is fine and people just need to read it carefully. No Ignacy, the rulebook is a hot mess and some rules are just not there or contradict with the later FAQ. This is my 6th game from Portal and first one I won't keep in my collection so Portal is still batting way above average for me but I won't preorder Alien Artefacts before the reviews are in.
Exactly, you'd think they'd get their act together on that... RC's v1.0 rules were fucking terrible. I heard the new edition's rules are "Better" but still have issues. What they need to do is higher a dedicated page layout / designer that can create killer rule books, and off load that, if Igancy is doing it. Or fire the person that is.. Because Portal keeps dropping the ball. I also wonder how often they blind play test their games... because it doesn't feel like they do that at all.
Also, weren't there serious issues with Cry Havoc? Gaps in the rules, or things seeming confusing? I haven't played, but was pretty sure I heard rumblings about that.
Welcome to Trzewiczek's World. This guy might be The worst game designer in Poland, but his ego is legendary. He really thinks that he is The next Richard Garfield because he made reaally bad rpg system that plagiarizes every cool action movie from The 80's, but RPG market in 90's poland was so barren that it still became bestseller and launched his Company into The stratosphere. Every game he made was A disaster.
As someone who is currently programming a systems-heavy strategy game, I concur. When Quinns was listing all the things that the players had to do to progress a turn, all I could think was "this would go so much faster with a computer handling the rules".
Agreed. There's a lot of boardgames that would do so, so much better as computer games simply because the computer can handle things that would be time consuming and tedious to do in real life in less than a second. Also, there's never any issue of "Oh did I do that right?" because the computer game wouldn't let you make an illegal move.
I feel that way about quite a few modern board games. I don't hate complexity per se but, when the game wants me to constantly play on its behalf, that's where some automation comes in handy...
The most entertaining and thoughtful negative review I've ever come across. It did not felt like venting or gratuitous bashing. Your point of view was explained very well and it was engaging. Thanks!
If a designer needs to constantly respond to 'pleas for help" I think that's a hint right there lol. Thank you for saving me money SU&SD, I almost got pulled into the hype vortex.
"Just imagine The Martian with Matt Damon except instead of farming potatoes, he was a potato." - Best description ever!! Thanks for making my day Quinns!
I understand how the red green light panel sounds cool, but this looks like the most colorblind unfriendly game out of the box I have seen in a LONG time.
@@Alluvian567 ,you do realise the characters in the game are astronauts,right? There wouldn't be a colourblind friendly version because colourblindness wouldn't cut it for an astronaut who has to refer to colourcoded warning labels. It's the same with pilots and especially true for staff on an aircraft carrier.
@beehive ,they are playing as astronauts,and astronauts must have normal vision in order to see warning labels,button colours,wiring,and everything else that engineering over the many decades has set as the norm.
@beehive ,and that changes he fact they're playing as astronauts how? How on Earth would you even go about making a game about playing as an astronaut,who deal with colours as part of the job,work for a colourblind person? Astronauts must have normal vision,and anyone who wants to play a game that even slightly simulates that must also have normal vision,there's no arguement that can change that.
@Behemotty11 As Agwblack mentioned, one of the reasons I play board games is to get away from things like my computer, TV, phone, etc. Also, I don't own a tablet which, as mentioned in the review, could make it very hard to use the app on my cell phone. If the game has random events or whatever why not just have those printed on cards or have a dice roll on a chart or something? It's much quicker to draw a card off a deck than it is to pick up my phone, press the power button, enter my password to unlock it, navigate through the app to the appropriate section and finally get a random event. Leaving the device on the whole time can lead to the battery draining which happened while we were playing Mansions of Madness at a friend's place for a game day. We had to move the table and pin one poor soul between the table and a wall because the charging cord for his tablet wasn't long enough to reach from the power outlet to the table in the middle of the dining room. I don't mind if board/card games have a companion app that is used for record keeping outside of the game. However it is so quick and easy to take a picture of the game state with my phone for when we pick the game up later or jotting down a note or two to stick in the box that most of the time I'd pass on using the app anyway.
So some real quick things: - Yes, the barrier of cost/access. I don't have a tablet. If I did, it might not be the right kind of tablet. - Sometimes an app is just used to do something you can do with a deck of cards and a booklet, which is a bit needless - Installing/keeping an app up to date can be a barrier to a game's long life. Small annoyance but one that might not be necessary if the app isn't actually providing more depth to the game - Apps create a head-down experience - you're more likely to have moments where players are caring about what's on the app rather than what's on the table in front of them - Apps are often made with bad user interface/user experience; this is a problem board games already have and having the same developers make an app often highlights this problem - As mentioned, avoiding screens is something some people want to do. An app makes that a problem. None of this is to say apps are bad but they aren't an inherent good and complaints about them are not inherently meaningless. I mean, some of these things apply to other mechanical decisions like soundtracks or real time play. But they are things worth understanding, and an app introduces a ton of new things a developer can get wrong.
Remember when Quinns was talking about how the game was a puzzle box? That's kind of what apps do to board games... There are some aspects of the game that are simply hidden from the players that get thrown in their laps. Mansions of Madness does the same thing- combat involves using the app which tells you what to do and what the consequences are, which prevents players from properly strategizing those aspects of the game. Also, remember the part where he talks about "What happens when the O2 meter is at 0?" Well, I bet that there ARE consequences for that happening... but they are hidden in the app. (Hence why the app needs to know that information) I actually don't mind apps for board games, but they can make navigating these games more difficult.
Agree with you - I really dislike board games with apps. The only game I have which will have an app is Star Wars: Imperial Assault but in this case I think it's a good idea because I don't want to play the Imperial player and no one else in my group does either but the game is awesome in itself without the app.
Yes, I watch SDSU to be entertained. And, yes, I watch to learn about board games. But I also feel like I'm learning a foreign language. Today's British word - gee-ser. It doesn't mean "cranky old man." Nope, it means guy-ser. Who knew? I figure after a few more seasons, I'll be able to visit the UK without a phrase book.
Thank you for the review. I can hardly agree that the instruction is difficult to understand. Despite our efforts, something did not work out. Not about the instructions I wanted to write here, but I did not want to leave it alone. On the other hand, I wanted to share my opinion about the theme in FM. When we play Robinson, we know in principle what we can come up with. We are on an island and the island is on Earth. Environmentally friendly for us, even when threatened by wild animals. On Mars it is not. The environment is not friendly. And we are not survivors but scientists who do know what to do without sentimentality. We are on a mission. We are scientists The author of FM is a close person for me because he is my husband. He is also the author of Robinson. Well, I do not like Robinson. I do not like it just because of adventure, hunting, theme. It's not for me. For me there is First Martians. I do not like apps in games too. In FM, for me, app is like a screen in HAB. I just check something on it for time to time. If you play FM you should realize that you are on a mission, not by chance, but by purpose. You know what you're supposed to do on Mars because it's your job. That there will be no adventure because something happens by chance but your adventure is your mission and research - if you like it, FM is for you. Someone wrote here that FM is no fun. It depends what for whom is fun .. For me there are many games that I play very seriously, no fun. Like the Twilight Struggle or Cuba Libre. My comment is probably a bit emotional but I had to share it with you very much. I hope my comment will convince some of you to give a chance to FM. The problem is that players who played the campaign can not share publicly. And believe me, there is something to share. But still Top Secret ;-)
What you are saying Merry is that this game has or will have an audience. Like every other game and I cannot but entirely agree. I am in the middle of my review for this game in BGG so I do not want to share too many of my thoughts here. Still. Apart from all the "back to the rulebook over and over again" and the "extensive googl(e)ing" criticisms I capture in SU&SD's video, they do lack predilection for the theme-mechanics marriage in First Martians and the experience it delivers. That's a respectable point of view. But I personally like in First Martians the science and technical side of it more than the focus on emotional adventure, I am an R&D bloke and maybe that's what turns me on. Plus there is an exciting thing during the event phase, you get hints at future happenings - whether in the text or the scientists' quotes. It is fun to try to figure the threat out, it will come back to haunt you. Ultimately, you have a mission, you are under pressure and stress builds up as you crash against environmental, logistical and psychological boundaries. What, you do not like that people end up fighting? Just imagine that stress is such that at some point somebody ends up doing a mistake badly hurting themselves or someone else. Theme point solved. That things just get bad and badder in an unfun way, only someone who barely plays co-ops would despise that. I think it is all about your predisposition and connection with the game. For instance, if you hate medieval landscape, don't bother playing Shadows over Camelot, it can get pretty hard and frustrating. Robinson Crusoe. Elder Sign. Dead of Winter. I always prefer to say this game may not be for everyone. In spite of its flaws I think it can provide an enjoyable experience, try someone's copy or give it a chance if your wallet can afford it, because there is one thing Quinn's is spot on: this game is at its peak of interest when played solo. And you will assuredly need to do that before taking it to your group anyway. You'd better. My 10 cent.
Thank you for opinion. You're right. The author's intention was just to make the game "dry" and scientifically captured. Without emotion, calculation and problems. Personally, I'm not a supporter of co-op games. Shadows over Camelot .... My husband loves this game. I love the author but I do not like the game ;-)
This is my favorite review in a long time. Of late, I have sensed fatigue, even in the videos of games you guys seem to really like. Quinns, you were in spectacular form. I wonder if just the ideas and scope of this game, were enough to spark the passion, or maybe you're finally getting enough rest? Thank you for what you do, S&S is truly top shelf.
I've watched a lot of reviews from you guys, and this one is among my favorites. I appreciate reviewers who point out the good, and the bad, about games. And based on my limited experience with this game, you are spot on here.
My biggest issue with the vast majority of coop games is that they are essentially solo games. The coop aspect usually ends up with more experienced players dictating their actions through the less experienced players. For me they work better solo or with just 2 players. My main issue with robinson crusoe was the fact that often you knew exactly what needed to be done but it just isnt interesting when you have no real choice other than to do the essential thing to survive.
Yeah I really wanted to like Robinson Crusoe but it felt like there was such a precise answer to the puzzle and a lot of replays and luck (or reducing the difficulty by taking extra starting items) were required to win that I couldn't have imagined it working well with a group. This is a very late comment but might be worth checking out Escape the curse of the temple for a very different (and very fun!) Co op vibe. I think that's different as really it's not about solving a hard puzzle but about rushing around working on the same thing (sometimes solo sometimes together) with everyone rolling dice like mad and then needing help from other players if you get your dice locked. The curses expansion (which comes with the main game) has some excellent twists aswell. It's a good one as really quick to play and teach and you always play at least 2 games of it
Very helpful review. The game seems like a step downwards from Robinson Crusoe despite being hyped otherwise in terms of being a fun and immersive experience.
You might take a look at Robinson Crusoe board game. Seems similar, but there is no app, there is better manual and last year new expantion came out - so maybe review even? As awlays - very entertaining video! Never stop!
Legacy of the Stars My favourite co-op! Never stops entertaining and the chaos is hilarious. Just that the game resolve application is a must when you have learned the game.
As much as people don't like games that require apps, that's how much I don't like games that require soundtracks. Just personal preference. I like programmed movement games. It's fun to watch the chaos, but I'd rather play as robots fighting each other or at least attempting to do so, and at my leisure.I'd love to play Space Alert as long as someone else was doing the setting up, playing of audio, and we were in a setting where we could actually hear the damn thing.
Billy Board Game with a Dream Yeah the whole setting the soundtrack and because i am the most english fluent player in our group i have to pay attention to it the whole time is pretty annoying. I guess as Rahdo talked about it in his 2.0 video Space Alert really needs a dedicated app to really shine.
Given that NASA prioritizes people with personalities that are easy-going and capable of working together even over expertise in the field due to their understanding of just how important being able to work together in high-stress situations is when you're millions of miles from any help, the idea that the astronauts would be having actual fistfights to the point of being injured is probably the most unrealistic, immersion-breaking, "I'm sorry this was supposed to be a sim of life on Mars?" thing about this game.
@@OverlordZephyros Yes, and after Lisa Nowak, you know what they did? They actually decided to re-check and reexamine their selection process. Because NASA isn't made up of idiots, no matter how many Hollywood movies portray them and astronauts as such. No, the plot of Solaris will never happen, I'm sorry. That's not how things work. It's fine if a game wants to take a more cinematic take on colonization. But when a game is selling itself on immersion and being a gritty simulation... then having astronauts starting fist fights like they're your average reality TV contestant is going against that.
@@Shenaldrac the point is that no matter how much training, conditioning, screeing, etc we all humans in the end, humans are not perfect and stuff like this will happen eventually. Especially when we start to send more of them.
at some point, when enough people are having the same issues, you have to admit that something 'might' be unclear. I remember someone telling me that I was an idiot because I didn't read the rules enough to understand that in Terraforming Mars, I could play more than 2 actions per generation. Sure enough, it's one of the most misunderstood rules that a LOT of solo players have had issues with.
I asked one of the guys at Portal's booth, "If I own Robinson Crusoe, why should I buy this?" and he really couldn't answer the question adequately. This looks like an even more complex version of that game which is already complex enough, has a lousy rulebook, an enormous upkeep, too many components, and is also most fun to play alone. I do, however, really enjoy the game, but I don't like having to go back to relearn the rules. So, if I go any length of time without playing it, it's a long length of time. Like parsecs of time.
I just got this for 10 euro new just for the lozenges and cubes. After unboxing it I understand why it did not succeed. So much complexity it intimidates and only 3 plastic bags for a game with a gazilion different components and tedious setup - my head hurts and I've got better things to do. Gotta bathe the dog before winter comes.
This game sounds like it would be an amazing computer game. If all the upkeep and all the token moving and all the stretching and shifting and what not was masked behind lovely cutscenes and automatic happening, if all the rules were handled automatically, and all you had to do was roll some digital dice and make some interesting lozenge choices, this seems like it would be incredible. Seriously, I've NEVER seen a board game that seems like it would benefit SO much from being turned into a really nice computer game. And I don't mean "a computer game based on this game." I mean a computerized, digitized version of this game, like the Terra Mystica or Waterdeep or, specifically, the Pathfinder Adventures games that are available on Steam. Specifically that last one is a great example of what can be done with just a little coat of paint and a few simple cutscenes. So yeah, I REALLY hope that this game sees a computerized version of this game. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
0:28 Here in England, where English was invented, we rather say "That takes the biscuit". This is because we don't find the word biscuit to be "tough to spell" like in other, not native English dialects.
This game seemed to have many similarities to Robinson Crusoe which I played many times and never ended up liking because of all the stuff the game was trying to accomplish. Its the opposite of an elegant design. Then I googled and voila, it's the same designer
not just the same designer, it's basically a re-implementation of Robinson Crusoe.. Basically Robinson Crusoe 2.0 with app. This was never a secret, and is pretty well known before hand. I like Robinson Crusoe, but I agree with Quinns, it's almost best as a solo game, or maybe as a 2 player game. But I agree with you Robinson Crusoe has so many moving parts, it's a wonder why it couldn't be stream lined.
Ah but I love Robinson Crusoe. I play it all the time for just a challenging survival game on an island. But this theme is lame; and I'm an app developer and it looks like their app is clunky. I really can't be excited about this one.
AMProductions I heard the first edition of Robinson Crusoe was plagued with rule issues however I bought the second edition and had no issues whatsoever (and from what I read the re-release sorted everything out). Here’s hoping this gets a ‘second edition’ as I love Crusoe and like the idea of more of the same... in space.
Thank you so much for this review. Now, I know I'm not alone. After an hour and half of set up I was stoked to play this beautiful co-op game with two other players. However, the app was lame, the rounds were confusing and by sol 5, I found myself scheming to starve all the astronauts just to put us out of the bumbtastic misery that was first martians. I still couldn't manage that. It may have put me off of co-op games for good if I hadn't seen this review.
Sounds like you need a PHD in everything to learn to play this. Clearly not enough testing on people who start out knowing nothing, and playing it without a tutor.
See, I largely agree with SUSD's review and opinions. This game indeed took me 2 views of Watch It Played 50 minute how-to-play video, a slow and long reading of the rules, another playthrough video and about 3-4 solo games to eventually learn First Martians. But now that I play intuitively, I love the game and the stories FM has to offer. I know the game has it's faults, but it remains one of my favorites after 30 plays. So it's been certainly been a weird one for me - indeed I love the first campaign story!
I will add: I've played exclusively solo late at night after kids were in bed. It's a great solo game but it would certainly be prone to an alpha-player problem with more players.
Yes, I'm with you. Definitely was tough to get through all the rules and some of them are a bit fiddly. But once I felt I had a strong handle on it, this game became one of my favorites. It's too bad some things weren't explained better. It really needs a 2.0.
RC isn't much more streamlined, tbh. It's better, certainly, but unless you're captivated by long rulebooks, spending an hour getting your group up to speed on it, and not being able to play with anyone who has played one less game than you (because you MUST alpha-game it), and planning to spend five sessions figuring it out, give that a pass as well.
@@ichifish I never played First Martians so I can't really compare RC to it. However, I strongly disagree with your comment. I will grant that RC is a difficult game to learn from scratch, and it did take me over an hour to figure it out (including my time spent watching a UA-cam tutorial from Watch It Played). However, teaching it to new players was far simpler and a lot quicker. You're also *profusely* wrong about having to alpha game RC. The issue with alpha gaming is when the same person constantly figures out the "optimal action" that everyone else should take. With RC, there usually isn't an optimal action or the optimal action isn't clear at all. Sure, everyone might agree that fire wood needs to be collected, but should everyone focus on building up their shelter, creating new tools, or exploring more land? It's not clear at all. Yes, you can still have alpha gamers in RC. However, if you do have an alpha gamer problem with RC, then you're probably having an alpha gamer problem with that person in all co-op games with open communication. At that point, it's an issue with that particular gamer and not the game. There are so many people who enjoy RC that it's clearly a good game that works for so many people. So, telling others they shouldn't buy the game just because you personally didn't enjoy it is a quite arrogant.
You can tell this is by Ignace trziwek (I think i spelled that right). Each player has 2 action pawns? Huge scenario sheets? Too much to do? Exploring outside of your camp and a morale track? Incredibly complicated? This seems like a reimplementation of Robinson Crusoe adventures on the cursed island. But whereas Robinson Crusoe is one of my favorite games ever, I trust su&sd’s opinion.
People overlook the fact that the problem with the game is not the rulebook, the problem is the whole game design itself. The design is soooo bad that nobody can really make a rulebook that works.
The green/red LEDs thing doesn't just seem annoying for people who have difficulty distinguishing those colours, but outright hostile because of the sheer number of those tokens.
I was about to loudly and violently agree with you, but I think the cubes might still be different enough for a colorblind person to tell the difference. And if not, there's nothing preventing you from replacing or modifying the components. That's the beauty of a physical game. Perhaps it shouldn't be necessary, but... I don't know, I'm torn on the issue. I have to admit, to me, the array of red and green lights specifically is so visually thematic that I think changing it would really harm the overall impression of the game... I think, for this game, it's probably fine.
It could've easily been blue and red, there's a reason why those are the colors used in so many popular team games like TF, halo and rocket league Or even other variations, like orange, yellow, etc. It's a good observation that further proves the lack of awareness and/or ironing out the final product by the dev
Sure. Could have. I'm still not convinced it's actually necessary. Hard to tell without having the components in front of you, but the cubes being translucent can make it much easier to tell the difference than it would be with solid color objects or printed cardboard. Even in the video, it looks to me like the red cubes are significantly darker than the green ones, and that can be all that matters when actually playing the game. Yes, colorblindness is a very important thing for a designer to consider, but mind that we have no proof here that that the designer *didn't* consider it and subsequently found that the components weren't a problem before releasing the game. If a colorblind person gets their hands on this game in person and can relay to me that the colors do in fact suck, then fine, that is a huge oversight and we can bash the designer all we want. Until then, I'm not going to. It doesn't do anyone any good.
I don't want to come across as a self-righteous pain in the ass. Was just an observation: At least in the video, I have a hard time telling the cubes apart. It happens all the time, I don't get triggered about it, but it does weight on what games I end up buying =P
I have had Pandemic Legacy season 1 for almost a year now, and I have played it in 2 sessions, working on about the first 3 months of the game. But it's really hard getting the group together and I really want to play it. How is the gameplay with 1-2 people? Because I have been pretty patient for a year, and just want to experience the story.
Bobby Scarbrough it's just as amazing with 2 players, if both of you are equally into it. I wouldn't recommend playing Pandemic Legacy with someone of a different experience level in Pandemic. I finished Season 1 over the course of three marathon sessions, and would absolutely do it again and recommend it. Take a Saturday, get your best Pandemic buddy and play until you collapse from exhaustion. The tension and anticipation just builds and builds across the playthroughs, I barely noticed we'd gone past 12 hours.
Phew.. glad I dodged that one. Nearly pre-ordered this.. but after my experiences with the first edition of Robinson Crusoe I knew I should hold out for the 2nd or 3rd edition.
16:03 Fear makes cowards of us all ... Hmm... Sounds like someone is a LOTR fanboy and trying to emulate Faramir's line, "War will make corpses of is all"
This isn't the first game you've reviewed that I've had this thought about, but, maybe it wants to be a kind of computer game rather than a board game? That is, a game, maybe on Facebook or something, where the computer deals with all the admin and you can just focus on the puzzles and making decisions on the campaign. It would make learning the ruleset so much easier.
Analog toys like board games should *never* include an app. It will always be fiddly, it's probably gonna be dead in ten years and it defeats the entire purpose of an analog game.
I have to agree with everything said here and yet I still like First Martians. Also set up is a huge pain. However it is not a game IMO it is a simulation. I got it 2nd hand so for me good value otherwise not so.
XShrike its because the creator of the game is not as good a designer as everyone thinks he is. Way too many components. Heavy board games are good but dont just add stuff to create options when fewer components would be better. The app could of handled many things to reduce the needs for many of them and reduce the "stretching" thay quinn talks about in the video. I was excited for this game to be mlre managable then robinson cursoe because of the app but doesnt look like ill be getting this one.
If had to guess, even though I know they weren't fans of RC, I'd say RC is preferred by them. Why? Because RC has more interesting decisions, seemingly less upkeep (somehow) and you do a lot more building towards things instead of just worrying about maintenance.
I think he just summed up why I've gotten to the point where I'm done with coop games where a bunch of people are grinding against the game and there's nothing in there that gives each person a good chance to really strike out on their own, like Space Alert. It feels like it's less fun playing with a group, where you could be doing something where you're challenging each other, than it would be if you did it on your own.
I had to come and watch your reviews after my first games. I've watched Watch it played How to play and Game play videos when they came out and was hyped for the game. Although too expensive for me at the time. Well I bought it at the store yesterday for a third of the usual price. Took the whole afternoon to learn the rule, thankfully Watch it played video is indexed, still it was hard/long to find some answers. I don't see myself ever teaching it to anyone else, it is so hard and complicated and so many component to setup; but as a solo play, i did enjoy the puzzle of Last Martian. Your review is very on point!
We bought the pre-order version. It hit the table, we tried to work it out for a few days, and we packed it up so we could play something else. Since with love Robinson Crusoe, I thought this would be more of the same but with better rules and an app to guide you through. The app here just makes things more confusing. I feel as though they need to fix the app so it helps rather than hinders.
One of the most underrated games ever. It just shouldn't say 'adventures' on the cover. It is a hardcore, realistic simulation of trying to survive on mars. If you are looking for smth like this it is awesome.
Chiming in with a comment on a 6 year old video but...historically, it was fascinating watching the fall of this game. Within months of release, its reputation became very negative and copies were selling for around $10 a pop or less on the aftermarket. That's almost low enough just to buy for the components. It was crazy.
Ironically it sounds like this game is actually worse than its predecessor Robinson Crusoe. Part of it is because the app sounds like it was poorly designed, which is a shame because a well designed app can really enhance the experience such as turning the so-so Mansions of Madness 1st edition into the extremely fun Mansions of Madness 2nd edition. It also sounds like the events aren't as interesting as they were in Crusoe - deciding to eat berries that might later make you sick, but might not, or making a potential enemy of a predator on the island are cool encounter bits that added some tension. The Mars events sound a bit dull by comparison. Quinns made the same complaint about Crusoe being opaque and prone to alpha gaming that he does about Martians so it's not surprising he wasn't fond of this game given the other issues with the rules and the app. He had a similar sort of luke warm acceptance of Crusoe as a game he could respect in some ways but not endorse. Personally I don't mind not knowing the exact answers to problems and my groups aren't that prone to alpha gaming in cooperative games so I like Crusoe more than Quinns did. But seeing the issues he had with Martians has made up my mind to skip this one and stick with Crusoe when I'm feeling like giving it another go. (And even there Crusoe isn't my favorite cooperative game, I've played Eldritch Horror much more often than Crusoe and I'm in my third group playing through Pandemic Legacy Season 1, both of which I would opt to play before Crusoe.)
I am hopeful as someone in the group bought it so will try to make the best out of it. Thanks again for the great information on it and it looks like it could be really cool but it sounds like I should lower expectations a tad until the first play through or two :).
Too much work, too little fun. Right off the bat, I'm guessing I'm not interested unless I can convince one of my buddies to do all the work in learning the game before inviting me over to help him play. Otherwise, forget about it.
Guessing you have a lot of games already to review. May I add another to your list? Spirit Island. 1-4 players. co-op. strategy Play a spirit/god of an island and push out invading white people (literally) with terror and death. This War of Mine. 1+ players. co-op. Based on the video game of the same name. A group of people trying to survive a war. Strong on narrative.
"Every imaginable flavour of throat lozenge". I died.
These videos are always tops.
Well said, yours are also phenomenal!
Why did u eat it?
I'm wondering how many of the outstanding issues could be fixed by updating the App after release. When you have such dependence on a piece of software there's greater scope for delivering errata to the players.
Scott Manley The equivalent of fixing your staging after launch. 😉
Also now i'm confused if i would prefer to see a KSP-themed expansion of this game or a "first martians"-mod in KSP.
I'm definitely glad that all the reviews started rolling in in time for me to cancel my preorder for this. I love the idea of this game, so I'm hopeful that it will be fixed with updates to the app, and or a second edition.
Its good to see you here Scott!
I'm afraid that in this case the issues seems mostly to be the fundamental design of the game.
If you have to place 2-3 action tokens on repair actions every turn, and another 2-3 on healing astronauts only then you only have 0-2 tokens left for meaningful choices/actions. Which is not something you want to have happen. Having the game basically play itself or just flatout losing the game is not something interesting or fun.
And much as I would love to believe just changing some stuff in the app would fix that. Looking at a board that consists of mostly subsystems that constantly break do not make me believe this can be fixed in this way for this game. For another game with a tablet, sure, not this one though, the design and all components are just too geared towards this maitaining of the base.
Also hadn't expected you to be watching SU&SD, glad to be wrong though :) .
Very true, it probably depends a lot on how well supported the app is/how the contract works between the board game and software companies. A lot of the phone implementations of board games don't seem to get a lot of updates unfortunately which is a bit of a missed opportunity
So someone made a video game and then forced you to play it on a board?
Pretty much
_Divinity: Origin Sin: The Board Game: Chronicle #1_
It is admirable that the designer is active on the BGG forums, but even after all the criticisms from both the preorder players and reviewers (SU&SD, No Pun Included and others) he is still adamant that the rulebook is fine and people just need to read it carefully. No Ignacy, the rulebook is a hot mess and some rules are just not there or contradict with the later FAQ. This is my 6th game from Portal and first one I won't keep in my collection so Portal is still batting way above average for me but I won't preorder Alien Artefacts before the reviews are in.
What saddened me the most, is this was RC in space. Portal had been down the rules wobbles road with that one, why then do it all again.
Exactly, you'd think they'd get their act together on that... RC's v1.0 rules were fucking terrible. I heard the new edition's rules are "Better" but still have issues. What they need to do is higher a dedicated page layout / designer that can create killer rule books, and off load that, if Igancy is doing it. Or fire the person that is.. Because Portal keeps dropping the ball. I also wonder how often they blind play test their games... because it doesn't feel like they do that at all.
Also, weren't there serious issues with Cry Havoc? Gaps in the rules, or things seeming confusing? I haven't played, but was pretty sure I heard rumblings about that.
Welcome to Trzewiczek's World. This guy might be The worst game designer in Poland, but his ego is legendary. He really thinks that he is The next Richard Garfield because he made reaally bad rpg system that plagiarizes every cool action movie from The 80's, but RPG market in 90's poland was so barren that it still became bestseller and launched his Company into The stratosphere. Every game he made was A disaster.
But I will say that overall Portal made some decent games, nothing outstanding but passable, thanks to other devs in The Company.
this sounds like it mite work as a computer game more then a board game:)
As someone who is currently programming a systems-heavy strategy game, I concur. When Quinns was listing all the things that the players had to do to progress a turn, all I could think was "this would go so much faster with a computer handling the rules".
Agreed. There's a lot of boardgames that would do so, so much better as computer games simply because the computer can handle things that would be time consuming and tedious to do in real life in less than a second. Also, there's never any issue of "Oh did I do that right?" because the computer game wouldn't let you make an illegal move.
I actually thought of Paradox upcoming game "Surviving Mars" the whole time. Pretty diffrent game, but still.
it kind of sounds like it might of worked well as a computer game in 1996
I feel that way about quite a few modern board games. I don't hate complexity per se but, when the game wants me to constantly play on its behalf, that's where some automation comes in handy...
The most entertaining and thoughtful negative review I've ever come across. It did not felt like venting or gratuitous bashing. Your point of view was explained very well and it was engaging. Thanks!
If a designer needs to constantly respond to 'pleas for help" I think that's a hint right there lol. Thank you for saving me money SU&SD, I almost got pulled into the hype vortex.
Cancelled my pre-order. Got a bird feeder instead.
We the birds thank you for your decision.
@@TimothyPetersphoto Why? You know the squirrels are just going to steal it all before you can get to it.
Can we get an hour loop of Matt fighting himself?
"Just imagine The Martian with Matt Damon except instead of farming potatoes, he was a potato." - Best description ever!! Thanks for making my day Quinns!
I understand how the red green light panel sounds cool, but this looks like the most colorblind unfriendly game out of the box I have seen in a LONG time.
Five years on,but has no one asked "Have you seen a colourblind astronaut before?" ?
@@NareshSinghOctagon Only astronauts play board games? Didn't know that. Thanks for the information.
@@Alluvian567 ,you do realise the characters in the game are astronauts,right?
There wouldn't be a colourblind friendly version because colourblindness wouldn't cut it for an astronaut who has to refer to colourcoded warning labels.
It's the same with pilots and especially true for staff on an aircraft carrier.
@beehive ,they are playing as astronauts,and astronauts must have normal vision in order to see warning labels,button colours,wiring,and everything else that engineering over the many decades has set as the norm.
@beehive ,and that changes he fact they're playing as astronauts how?
How on Earth would you even go about making a game about playing as an astronaut,who deal with colours as part of the job,work for a colourblind person?
Astronauts must have normal vision,and anyone who wants to play a game that even slightly simulates that must also have normal vision,there's no arguement that can change that.
I like Quinns
"Anton Engineerovich" is the perfect name for your average, run-of-the-mill Russian engineer.
I really dislike when board games require you to use an app.
Behemotty11 one of the reasons I like tabletop games is to get away from screens for a while
@Behemotty11 As Agwblack mentioned, one of the reasons I play board games is to get away from things like my computer, TV, phone, etc. Also, I don't own a tablet which, as mentioned in the review, could make it very hard to use the app on my cell phone. If the game has random events or whatever why not just have those printed on cards or have a dice roll on a chart or something? It's much quicker to draw a card off a deck than it is to pick up my phone, press the power button, enter my password to unlock it, navigate through the app to the appropriate section and finally get a random event. Leaving the device on the whole time can lead to the battery draining which happened while we were playing Mansions of Madness at a friend's place for a game day. We had to move the table and pin one poor soul between the table and a wall because the charging cord for his tablet wasn't long enough to reach from the power outlet to the table in the middle of the dining room.
I don't mind if board/card games have a companion app that is used for record keeping outside of the game. However it is so quick and easy to take a picture of the game state with my phone for when we pick the game up later or jotting down a note or two to stick in the box that most of the time I'd pass on using the app anyway.
So some real quick things:
- Yes, the barrier of cost/access. I don't have a tablet. If I did, it might not be the right kind of tablet.
- Sometimes an app is just used to do something you can do with a deck of cards and a booklet, which is a bit needless
- Installing/keeping an app up to date can be a barrier to a game's long life. Small annoyance but one that might not be necessary if the app isn't actually providing more depth to the game
- Apps create a head-down experience - you're more likely to have moments where players are caring about what's on the app rather than what's on the table in front of them
- Apps are often made with bad user interface/user experience; this is a problem board games already have and having the same developers make an app often highlights this problem
- As mentioned, avoiding screens is something some people want to do. An app makes that a problem.
None of this is to say apps are bad but they aren't an inherent good and complaints about them are not inherently meaningless. I mean, some of these things apply to other mechanical decisions like soundtracks or real time play. But they are things worth understanding, and an app introduces a ton of new things a developer can get wrong.
Remember when Quinns was talking about how the game was a puzzle box? That's kind of what apps do to board games... There are some aspects of the game that are simply hidden from the players that get thrown in their laps. Mansions of Madness does the same thing- combat involves using the app which tells you what to do and what the consequences are, which prevents players from properly strategizing those aspects of the game.
Also, remember the part where he talks about "What happens when the O2 meter is at 0?" Well, I bet that there ARE consequences for that happening... but they are hidden in the app. (Hence why the app needs to know that information)
I actually don't mind apps for board games, but they can make navigating these games more difficult.
Agree with you - I really dislike board games with apps. The only game I have which will have an app is Star Wars: Imperial Assault but in this case I think it's a good idea because I don't want to play the Imperial player and no one else in my group does either but the game is awesome in itself without the app.
Robinson C you start with little and craft/ find more, which is rewarding. This game just takes things away from you. Who thought that was fun?
Does sound like a daft idea for a game. You’d want the colony to progress somehow, not just constantly degrade.
Don't be silly Quinns there's no real fighting going on in professional wrestling!
Yes, I watch SDSU to be entertained. And, yes, I watch to learn about board games. But I also feel like I'm learning a foreign language. Today's British word - gee-ser. It doesn't mean "cranky old man." Nope, it means guy-ser. Who knew? I figure after a few more seasons, I'll be able to visit the UK without a phrase book.
I pre-ordered this, tried really hard to like it, and sadly, sold it recently. Your review echoed my own experience - thanks for being so honest.
Hard pass. Got it. Thanks.
Also, didn't know you had a podcast. Subscribed.
Jonathan A You know how I know you didn't watch the whole video?
Jordan Rudderham You assume too much. Don't do that.
This is 100% my experience playing this game. Glad I wasn't the one who bought it.
Thank you for the review. I can hardly agree that the instruction is difficult to understand. Despite our efforts, something did not work out.
Not about the instructions I wanted to write here, but I did not want to leave it alone.
On the other hand, I wanted to share my opinion about the theme in FM.
When we play Robinson, we know in principle what we can come up with. We are on an island and the island is on Earth. Environmentally friendly for us, even when threatened by wild animals.
On Mars it is not. The environment is not friendly. And we are not survivors but scientists who do know what to do without sentimentality. We are on a mission. We are scientists
The author of FM is a close person for me because he is my husband. He is also the author of Robinson.
Well, I do not like Robinson. I do not like it just because of adventure, hunting, theme. It's not for me. For me there is First Martians. I do not like apps in games too. In FM, for me, app is like a screen in HAB. I just check something on it for time to time.
If you play FM you should realize that you are on a mission, not by chance, but by purpose. You know what you're supposed to do on Mars because it's your job. That there will be no adventure because something happens by chance but your adventure is your mission and research - if you like it, FM is for you.
Someone wrote here that FM is no fun. It depends what for whom is fun .. For me there are many games that I play very seriously, no fun. Like the Twilight Struggle or Cuba Libre.
My comment is probably a bit emotional but I had to share it with you very much. I hope my comment will convince some of you to give a chance to FM. The problem is that players who played the campaign can not share publicly. And believe me, there is something to share. But still Top Secret ;-)
What you are saying Merry is that this game has or will have an audience. Like every other game and I cannot but entirely agree. I am in the middle of my review for this game in BGG so I do not want to share too many of my thoughts here. Still. Apart from all the "back to the rulebook over and over again" and the "extensive googl(e)ing" criticisms I capture in SU&SD's video, they do lack predilection for the theme-mechanics marriage in First Martians and the experience it delivers. That's a respectable point of view.
But I personally like in First Martians the science and technical side of it more than the focus on emotional adventure, I am an R&D bloke and maybe that's what turns me on. Plus there is an exciting thing during the event phase, you get hints at future happenings - whether in the text or the scientists' quotes. It is fun to try to figure the threat out, it will come back to haunt you. Ultimately, you have a mission, you are under pressure and stress builds up as you crash against environmental, logistical and psychological boundaries. What, you do not like that people end up fighting? Just imagine that stress is such that at some point somebody ends up doing a mistake badly hurting themselves or someone else. Theme point solved.
That things just get bad and badder in an unfun way, only someone who barely plays co-ops would despise that. I think it is all about your predisposition and connection with the game. For instance, if you hate medieval landscape, don't bother playing Shadows over Camelot, it can get pretty hard and frustrating. Robinson Crusoe. Elder Sign. Dead of Winter.
I always prefer to say this game may not be for everyone. In spite of its flaws I think it can provide an enjoyable experience, try someone's copy or give it a chance if your wallet can afford it, because there is one thing Quinn's is spot on: this game is at its peak of interest when played solo. And you will assuredly need to do that before taking it to your group anyway. You'd better. My 10 cent.
Thank you for opinion. You're right. The author's intention was just to make the game "dry" and scientifically captured. Without emotion, calculation and problems.
Personally, I'm not a supporter of co-op games. Shadows over Camelot .... My husband loves this game. I love the author but I do not like the game ;-)
Hunger makes gluttons of us all.
Itches make scratchers of us all.
If you like the mechanical theme of this sounds like Rimworld is the way to go. (Computer game)
This is my favorite review in a long time. Of late, I have sensed fatigue, even in the videos of games you guys seem to really like. Quinns, you were in spectacular form. I wonder if just the ideas and scope of this game, were enough to spark the passion, or maybe you're finally getting enough rest? Thank you for what you do, S&S is truly top shelf.
My only comment: Steam geezer put an image in my head that I won't soon forget.
Quinn's watch out! There is a wasp behind you! Bottom left corner 2:03,2:13,2:27
Albert Huebner and 2:17
Reference wasp. A measure for the amount of tension in the game.
My anxiety levels have maxed out. Actually playing the game might cost me my pancreas.
I've watched a lot of reviews from you guys, and this one is among my favorites. I appreciate reviewers who point out the good, and the bad, about games. And based on my limited experience with this game, you are spot on here.
My biggest issue with the vast majority of coop games is that they are essentially solo games. The coop aspect usually ends up with more experienced players dictating their actions through the less experienced players. For me they work better solo or with just 2 players. My main issue with robinson crusoe was the fact that often you knew exactly what needed to be done but it just isnt interesting when you have no real choice other than to do the essential thing to survive.
Yeah I really wanted to like Robinson Crusoe but it felt like there was such a precise answer to the puzzle and a lot of replays and luck (or reducing the difficulty by taking extra starting items) were required to win that I couldn't have imagined it working well with a group.
This is a very late comment but might be worth checking out Escape the curse of the temple for a very different (and very fun!) Co op vibe. I think that's different as really it's not about solving a hard puzzle but about rushing around working on the same thing (sometimes solo sometimes together) with everyone rolling dice like mad and then needing help from other players if you get your dice locked. The curses expansion (which comes with the main game) has some excellent twists aswell.
It's a good one as really quick to play and teach and you always play at least 2 games of it
Very helpful review. The game seems like a step downwards from Robinson Crusoe despite being hyped otherwise in terms of being a fun and immersive experience.
Will you guys be doing a review for Twilight Imperium 4th Edition?
They are releasing a documentary about Twilight Imperium, i'm fair certain they will make a review for 4th edition
‘De-fraggle your hard drive’
Love it.
You might take a look at Robinson Crusoe board game. Seems similar, but there is no app, there is better manual and last year new expantion came out - so maybe review even? As awlays - very entertaining video! Never stop!
www.shutupandsitdown.com/review-robinson-crusoe-adventure-on-the-cursed/
Is not about mars though..
Space Alert is indeed a great game.
Legacy of the Stars My favourite co-op! Never stops entertaining and the chaos is hilarious. Just that the game resolve application is a must when you have learned the game.
As much as people don't like games that require apps, that's how much I don't like games that require soundtracks. Just personal preference. I like programmed movement games. It's fun to watch the chaos, but I'd rather play as robots fighting each other or at least attempting to do so, and at my leisure.I'd love to play Space Alert as long as someone else was doing the setting up, playing of audio, and we were in a setting where we could actually hear the damn thing.
Billy Board Game with a Dream Yeah the whole setting the soundtrack and because i am the most english fluent player in our group i have to pay attention to it the whole time is pretty annoying. I guess as Rahdo talked about it in his 2.0 video Space Alert really needs a dedicated app to really shine.
Video would also help. If I need audio, I might as well have video. It makes it more accessible as well.
Given that NASA prioritizes people with personalities that are easy-going and capable of working together even over expertise in the field due to their understanding of just how important being able to work together in high-stress situations is when you're millions of miles from any help, the idea that the astronauts would be having actual fistfights to the point of being injured is probably the most unrealistic, immersion-breaking, "I'm sorry this was supposed to be a sim of life on Mars?" thing about this game.
The fact we have astronauts that have gone crazy and done crimes are not that farfetched.
@@OverlordZephyros Citation needed.
@@Shenaldrac Anne McLain and Lisa Nowak come to mind. Who knows if there are others in hush hush situation.
@@OverlordZephyros Yes, and after Lisa Nowak, you know what they did? They actually decided to re-check and reexamine their selection process. Because NASA isn't made up of idiots, no matter how many Hollywood movies portray them and astronauts as such. No, the plot of Solaris will never happen, I'm sorry. That's not how things work.
It's fine if a game wants to take a more cinematic take on colonization. But when a game is selling itself on immersion and being a gritty simulation... then having astronauts starting fist fights like they're your average reality TV contestant is going against that.
@@Shenaldrac the point is that no matter how much training, conditioning, screeing, etc we all humans in the end, humans are not perfect and stuff like this will happen eventually. Especially when we start to send more of them.
This video had my family rolling! Picked the game up at a yard sale for $10, might give it a try, but we'll probably all die in a rover crash!
at some point, when enough people are having the same issues, you have to admit that something 'might' be unclear. I remember someone telling me that I was an idiot because I didn't read the rules enough to understand that in Terraforming Mars, I could play more than 2 actions per generation. Sure enough, it's one of the most misunderstood rules that a LOT of solo players have had issues with.
This turned into a really convincing recommend for Space Alert.
I asked one of the guys at Portal's booth, "If I own Robinson Crusoe, why should I buy this?" and he really couldn't answer the question adequately. This looks like an even more complex version of that game which is already complex enough, has a lousy rulebook, an enormous upkeep, too many components, and is also most fun to play alone. I do, however, really enjoy the game, but I don't like having to go back to relearn the rules. So, if I go any length of time without playing it, it's a long length of time. Like parsecs of time.
I don't understand why I would play a single player board game when I could play a videogame and get a better experience.
My dream is to own mage knights And to spend 300 hours playing solo
I just got this for 10 euro new just for the lozenges and cubes. After unboxing it I understand why it did not succeed. So much complexity it intimidates and only 3 plastic bags for a game with a gazilion different components and tedious setup - my head hurts and I've got better things to do. Gotta bathe the dog before winter comes.
Always top notch entertainment, Shutup & Sitdown is a national treasure.
if Matt Damon wasn't farming potatoes he was a potato...
"Holy Potatoes! We're in Space?!" the game
Two minutes and thirty six seconds into the video I'm already saying I ain't got no time for that.
This game sounds like it would be an amazing computer game. If all the upkeep and all the token moving and all the stretching and shifting and what not was masked behind lovely cutscenes and automatic happening, if all the rules were handled automatically, and all you had to do was roll some digital dice and make some interesting lozenge choices, this seems like it would be incredible.
Seriously, I've NEVER seen a board game that seems like it would benefit SO much from being turned into a really nice computer game. And I don't mean "a computer game based on this game." I mean a computerized, digitized version of this game, like the Terra Mystica or Waterdeep or, specifically, the Pathfinder Adventures games that are available on Steam. Specifically that last one is a great example of what can be done with just a little coat of paint and a few simple cutscenes.
So yeah, I REALLY hope that this game sees a computerized version of this game. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
0:28 Here in England, where English was invented, we rather say "That takes the biscuit". This is because we don't find the word biscuit to be "tough to spell" like in other, not native English dialects.
Glad you outed this Quinns as I was considering it. Good stuff SU&SD!
Love it brutally honest review... that games looks pretty overwhelming.
This game seemed to have many similarities to Robinson Crusoe which I played many times and never ended up liking because of all the stuff the game was trying to accomplish. Its the opposite of an elegant design. Then I googled and voila, it's the same designer
not just the same designer, it's basically a re-implementation of Robinson Crusoe.. Basically Robinson Crusoe 2.0 with app. This was never a secret, and is pretty well known before hand. I like Robinson Crusoe, but I agree with Quinns, it's almost best as a solo game, or maybe as a 2 player game. But I agree with you Robinson Crusoe has so many moving parts, it's a wonder why it couldn't be stream lined.
Ah but I love Robinson Crusoe. I play it all the time for just a challenging survival game on an island. But this theme is lame; and I'm an app developer and it looks like their app is clunky. I really can't be excited about this one.
AMProductions I heard the first edition of Robinson Crusoe was plagued with rule issues however I bought the second edition and had no issues whatsoever (and from what I read the re-release sorted everything out). Here’s hoping this gets a ‘second edition’ as I love Crusoe and like the idea of more of the same... in space.
Thank you so much for this review. Now, I know I'm not alone. After an hour and half of set up I was stoked to play this beautiful co-op game with two other players. However, the app was lame, the rounds were confusing and by sol 5, I found myself scheming to starve all the astronauts just to put us out of the bumbtastic misery that was first martians. I still couldn't manage that. It may have put me off of co-op games for good if I hadn't seen this review.
Sounds like you need a PHD in everything to learn to play this.
Clearly not enough testing on people who start out knowing nothing, and playing it without a tutor.
I would love to see the metrics for this video. How many people kept watching past the initial "this sucks" warning?
I did, because shutupandsitdown is always entertaining enough for my time.
I watched the video to its end. A simple "this sucks" is not enough for me, I want to know why it sucks.
Even KDM has building, and that's a game where you can punch the ding dong off of a lion, essentially perma-taunting it.
I'm 2 minutes in and this already looks shockingly colour blind unfriendly.
See, I largely agree with SUSD's review and opinions. This game indeed took me 2 views of Watch It Played 50 minute how-to-play video, a slow and long reading of the rules, another playthrough video and about 3-4 solo games to eventually learn First Martians. But now that I play intuitively, I love the game and the stories FM has to offer. I know the game has it's faults, but it remains one of my favorites after 30 plays. So it's been certainly been a weird one for me - indeed I love the first campaign story!
I will add: I've played exclusively solo late at night after kids were in bed. It's a great solo game but it would certainly be prone to an alpha-player problem with more players.
Oh, and I've also only played on 'Hard' since my 5th game - it is indeed crazy difficult.
Yes, I'm with you. Definitely was tough to get through all the rules and some of them are a bit fiddly. But once I felt I had a strong handle on it, this game became one of my favorites. It's too bad some things weren't explained better. It really needs a 2.0.
Why are all the games about Mars? (Or bears) But mainly Mars?
mars is the new Cthulu
Dice Hard Mars bears?
HerpinThaDerp heh, seems like it :)
Andreas Esbech Bravo!
And where are all the games about Martian bears?
"Fear makes cowards of us all" is among the most breathtakingly terrible writing I've ever heard.
I think this has answered my question of this or Robinson Crusoe. Especially since that game received a lovely second edition recently.
RC isn't much more streamlined, tbh. It's better, certainly, but unless you're captivated by long rulebooks, spending an hour getting your group up to speed on it, and not being able to play with anyone who has played one less game than you (because you MUST alpha-game it), and planning to spend five sessions figuring it out, give that a pass as well.
@@ichifish I never played First Martians so I can't really compare RC to it. However, I strongly disagree with your comment.
I will grant that RC is a difficult game to learn from scratch, and it did take me over an hour to figure it out (including my time spent watching a UA-cam tutorial from Watch It Played). However, teaching it to new players was far simpler and a lot quicker.
You're also *profusely* wrong about having to alpha game RC. The issue with alpha gaming is when the same person constantly figures out the "optimal action" that everyone else should take. With RC, there usually isn't an optimal action or the optimal action isn't clear at all. Sure, everyone might agree that fire wood needs to be collected, but should everyone focus on building up their shelter, creating new tools, or exploring more land? It's not clear at all. Yes, you can still have alpha gamers in RC. However, if you do have an alpha gamer problem with RC, then you're probably having an alpha gamer problem with that person in all co-op games with open communication. At that point, it's an issue with that particular gamer and not the game.
There are so many people who enjoy RC that it's clearly a good game that works for so many people. So, telling others they shouldn't buy the game just because you personally didn't enjoy it is a quite arrogant.
You can tell this is by Ignace trziwek (I think i spelled that right). Each player has 2 action pawns? Huge scenario sheets? Too much to do? Exploring outside of your camp and a morale track? Incredibly complicated? This seems like a reimplementation of Robinson Crusoe adventures on the cursed island. But whereas Robinson Crusoe is one of my favorite games ever, I trust su&sd’s opinion.
why no comparison to Robinson Crusoe? I love that game and i wanted to know if you thought people who love that game would like this one
Yo, Spirit Island is a great heavy co-op. PEACE!
Sweet Jesus. Everything I hate about modern boardgames in one nightmarish package.
People overlook the fact that the problem with the game is not the rulebook, the problem is the whole game design itself. The design is soooo bad that nobody can really make a rulebook that works.
Everytime i watch a SU&SD video i just want to hug them all and tell them i love them.
The green/red LEDs thing doesn't just seem annoying for people who have difficulty distinguishing those colours, but outright hostile because of the sheer number of those tokens.
"It's like The Martian, but instead of farming potatoes, you are a potato." - Killed me, haha
The EU flag they had in their space costumes did not age well
i dont play board gamess but still watch your videos
Golden line that got me:
"Imagine the Martian with Matt Damon, but instead of farming potatoes he is a potato." 🥔
@2:27 either a super fast spider, or an erratic fly on the ground in the bottom left corner. 😃
As a person that manages complex, interconnected systems for a living, this sounds awesome...
I understand that keeping equipment in repair would be a vital part of running a Mars colony, but do we need to create a board game about it?
Game lost me at 1:35. Replacing Green Cubes with Red Cubes is not Colorblind-Friendly, people. Get on with the times (?)
I was about to loudly and violently agree with you, but I think the cubes might still be different enough for a colorblind person to tell the difference. And if not, there's nothing preventing you from replacing or modifying the components. That's the beauty of a physical game. Perhaps it shouldn't be necessary, but... I don't know, I'm torn on the issue. I have to admit, to me, the array of red and green lights specifically is so visually thematic that I think changing it would really harm the overall impression of the game... I think, for this game, it's probably fine.
It could've easily been blue and red, there's a reason why those are the colors used in so many popular team games like TF, halo and rocket league
Or even other variations, like orange, yellow, etc. It's a good observation that further proves the lack of awareness and/or ironing out the final product by the dev
Sure. Could have. I'm still not convinced it's actually necessary. Hard to tell without having the components in front of you, but the cubes being translucent can make it much easier to tell the difference than it would be with solid color objects or printed cardboard. Even in the video, it looks to me like the red cubes are significantly darker than the green ones, and that can be all that matters when actually playing the game. Yes, colorblindness is a very important thing for a designer to consider, but mind that we have no proof here that that the designer *didn't* consider it and subsequently found that the components weren't a problem before releasing the game.
If a colorblind person gets their hands on this game in person and can relay to me that the colors do in fact suck, then fine, that is a huge oversight and we can bash the designer all we want. Until then, I'm not going to. It doesn't do anyone any good.
I don't want to come across as a self-righteous pain in the ass.
Was just an observation: At least in the video, I have a hard time telling the cubes apart.
It happens all the time, I don't get triggered about it, but it does weight on what games I end up buying =P
No, I'm with you. It's an important thing to consider, for sure.
Not buying this game will save me 2 months worth of Shut up and Sit Down donations :p Thanks for the review.
Totally unrelated but at 2:15 to 2:20 theres a bug crawling around on the floor... just wanted to mention
Yeah... I'll skip this, despite how much I like the theme and Mars games... perhaps if they made it a computer game
I have had Pandemic Legacy season 1 for almost a year now, and I have played it in 2 sessions, working on about the first 3 months of the game. But it's really hard getting the group together and I really want to play it. How is the gameplay with 1-2 people? Because I have been pretty patient for a year, and just want to experience the story.
Bobby Scarbrough it's just as amazing with 2 players, if both of you are equally into it. I wouldn't recommend playing Pandemic Legacy with someone of a different experience level in Pandemic. I finished Season 1 over the course of three marathon sessions, and would absolutely do it again and recommend it. Take a Saturday, get your best Pandemic buddy and play until you collapse from exhaustion. The tension and anticipation just builds and builds across the playthroughs, I barely noticed we'd gone past 12 hours.
Phew.. glad I dodged that one. Nearly pre-ordered this.. but after my experiences with the first edition of Robinson Crusoe I knew I should hold out for the 2nd or 3rd edition.
wait.. Space Alert has a Campaign mode?!
what is the outfit building game at 14:39? i have to know, it looks amazing!
@2:17......You have a fly in your flat, mate.
My eyes now have a perma-glaze from that rules explanation
16:03 Fear makes cowards of us all
... Hmm... Sounds like someone is a LOTR fanboy and trying to emulate Faramir's line, "War will make corpses of is all"
This isn't the first game you've reviewed that I've had this thought about, but, maybe it wants to be a kind of computer game rather than a board game? That is, a game, maybe on Facebook or something, where the computer deals with all the admin and you can just focus on the puzzles and making decisions on the campaign. It would make learning the ruleset so much easier.
Thank you so much for this review.
Analog toys like board games should *never* include an app. It will always be fiddly, it's probably gonna be dead in ten years and it defeats the entire purpose of an analog game.
2:30 bottom left corner of screen: WASPPPPP AAAA!!!!!!!!
I have to agree with everything said here and yet I still like First Martians. Also set up is a huge pain. However it is not a game IMO it is a simulation. I got it 2nd hand so for me good value otherwise not so.
I am now informed, educated and entertained re First Martians. Thanks.
No comparison to its predecessor, robinson crusoe?
i know in the past the SUSD crew have not shown RC much love
I skimmed through their review and it looks like the many of their complaints with Robinson Crusoe carried over to this.
XShrike its because the creator of the game is not as good a designer as everyone thinks he is. Way too many components. Heavy board games are good but dont just add stuff to create options when fewer components would be better. The app could of handled many things to reduce the needs for many of them and reduce the "stretching" thay quinn talks about in the video. I was excited for this game to be mlre managable then robinson cursoe because of the app but doesnt look like ill be getting this one.
If had to guess, even though I know they weren't fans of RC, I'd say RC is preferred by them. Why? Because RC has more interesting decisions, seemingly less upkeep (somehow) and you do a lot more building towards things instead of just worrying about maintenance.
My guess is they haven't played Robinson Crusoe. Otherwise he would have at least mentioned it.
I think he just summed up why I've gotten to the point where I'm done with coop games where a bunch of people are grinding against the game and there's nothing in there that gives each person a good chance to really strike out on their own, like Space Alert. It feels like it's less fun playing with a group, where you could be doing something where you're challenging each other, than it would be if you did it on your own.
I'm glad I stopped here before the store.
look at 2:00, thats a wasp in the bottom left hand corner flying around. *cringe*
I had to come and watch your reviews after my first games. I've watched Watch it played How to play and Game play videos when they came out and was hyped for the game. Although too expensive for me at the time. Well I bought it at the store yesterday for a third of the usual price. Took the whole afternoon to learn the rule, thankfully Watch it played video is indexed, still it was hard/long to find some answers. I don't see myself ever teaching it to anyone else, it is so hard and complicated and so many component to setup; but as a solo play, i did enjoy the puzzle of Last Martian. Your review is very on point!
We bought the pre-order version. It hit the table, we tried to work it out for a few days, and we packed it up so we could play something else. Since with love Robinson Crusoe, I thought this would be more of the same but with better rules and an app to guide you through. The app here just makes things more confusing.
I feel as though they need to fix the app so it helps rather than hinders.
One of the most underrated games ever. It just shouldn't say 'adventures' on the cover. It is a hardcore, realistic simulation of trying to survive on mars. If you are looking for smth like this it is awesome.
Chiming in with a comment on a 6 year old video but...historically, it was fascinating watching the fall of this game. Within months of release, its reputation became very negative and copies were selling for around $10 a pop or less on the aftermarket. That's almost low enough just to buy for the components. It was crazy.
I’d be worried about them withdrawing App support. But you’re right, the counters alone should be worth $10.
Ironically it sounds like this game is actually worse than its predecessor Robinson Crusoe. Part of it is because the app sounds like it was poorly designed, which is a shame because a well designed app can really enhance the experience such as turning the so-so Mansions of Madness 1st edition into the extremely fun Mansions of Madness 2nd edition. It also sounds like the events aren't as interesting as they were in Crusoe - deciding to eat berries that might later make you sick, but might not, or making a potential enemy of a predator on the island are cool encounter bits that added some tension. The Mars events sound a bit dull by comparison.
Quinns made the same complaint about Crusoe being opaque and prone to alpha gaming that he does about Martians so it's not surprising he wasn't fond of this game given the other issues with the rules and the app. He had a similar sort of luke warm acceptance of Crusoe as a game he could respect in some ways but not endorse. Personally I don't mind not knowing the exact answers to problems and my groups aren't that prone to alpha gaming in cooperative games so I like Crusoe more than Quinns did. But seeing the issues he had with Martians has made up my mind to skip this one and stick with Crusoe when I'm feeling like giving it another go. (And even there Crusoe isn't my favorite cooperative game, I've played Eldritch Horror much more often than Crusoe and I'm in my third group playing through Pandemic Legacy Season 1, both of which I would opt to play before Crusoe.)
I am hopeful as someone in the group bought it so will try to make the best out of it. Thanks again for the great information on it and it looks like it could be really cool but it sounds like I should lower expectations a tad until the first play through or two :).
Too much work, too little fun. Right off the bat, I'm guessing I'm not interested unless I can convince one of my buddies to do all the work in learning the game before inviting me over to help him play. Otherwise, forget about it.
Guessing you have a lot of games already to review. May I add another to your list?
Spirit Island. 1-4 players. co-op. strategy
Play a spirit/god of an island and push out invading white people (literally) with terror and death.
This War of Mine. 1+ players. co-op.
Based on the video game of the same name. A group of people trying to survive a war. Strong on narrative.