Queen Alyssane is probably the best written character in the book for me. One of her last scenes where she rides her dragon for the last time and comes down crying because she knows it’s the last time is genuinely heartbreaking
I rarely get emotional, I did so twice while reading F&B, and the first was when I was finishing the last of Alysanne, that pictire of her older really got me 😢
That period of the book is the one Martin wrote more recently and I think it shows. The other characters who can compete with Queen Alyssane for best writing are also around the same stretch of the story: her mother (Queen Alyssa), her aunt (Queen Rhaena) and her brother/husband (King Jaehaerys).
The multiple sources and unreliable historians is what makes it great for me, haven't read a book thats written like an in-universe history book before.
@@Bookborn Your reaction in that live when he said it was so funny but I can relate. Confirmed time travel in asoiaf was also traumatic to me back in 2016 😂
@@jimboslice6367 Mmm well he certainly wants to raise Jon Snow to Lord of Winterfell to be sure, Stannis isn't a stranger to working with bastards. But I didn't say they were the same character, just have a lot of parallels.
Your "optmism"( not really optmism, but a just a positive realness about everything) is such a breath of fresh air, because YES i love fire and blood, and if george wants to publish the part 2 instead of main asoiaf, i will still love it and I will BUY IT
@@Bookborn i dont think George would release either F&B 2 or Dunk and Egg 2 before TWOW as those 2 would spoil some things meant to be revealed in TWOW
@@ihuh1000 I agree! and basically came to the comments to say the same thing. I want Blood & Fire BAD, but I think some of the reveals about summerhall & things will be best in Winds, from Bloodraven & Bran, with more context later from B&F, then the later D&E books.
Another interesting thing about the Baratheon-Targaryen connection, is that Robert’s (and Stannis and Renly’s) grandmother was a Targaryen. One of the reasons he was chosen to become king out of the main rebels who overthrew the mad king, was because they felt him being partially Targaryen would make him look more legitimate to Westeros. Also, would love a video on how you felt about the Greens and the Blacks, both really compelling sides with lots of interesting characters. For me the Greens are one of the most interesting families in all of George’s ASOIAF world
It kind of leans to the history of kinslayers being cursed too, from the moment the hammer killed Rhaegar, Robert lived the most miserable life for being a king.
@@GreyMagee74 Could be, although I don't think Martin intended it that way. It's only his second-cousin (or however it's called in english), and they probably never viewed each other as family.
@Fenix-lr6ez maybe, maybe not. It's just one of those amazing wrinkles in the universe. And with their relations, we won't know until George says so, or there is some spinoff story about the Rebellion where we get their POVs and get that glimpse into their mind about each other. (we definitely won't be getting this sadly😂). I would think they did call each other cousin to a point because they grew up together till Robert went to The Vale since Steffon was Aerys' other best friend and was a part of his Small Council till he died. That's just my opinion based on the facts we know from the stated Canon i could be completely wrong.
@@GreyMagee74 oh I didn't consider Steffon being in Aerys' council, true. Although wasn't Rhaegar like 8 years older than Ned and Robert? If so, Rhaegar would double Robert's age when they were together, so dunno if they had any relations. But as you say, we'll never know for sure unless George decides to dig deeper into it. Cheers!
Did I miss that their grandmother was a Targaryen in the main series?? Probably since I didn't think much about history lol. I was on team Black...I know there was a lot of reason not to be buuutttt still lmao
Any time I hear someone call this series nihilistic, it makes me think either a.) they don’t understand nihilism, or b.) they haven’t actually read the series. I love that, as someone with a wide booktube audience, you continue to highlight George’s romanticism. I think ASOIAF is some of the most effective fantasy hopecore since LOTR. George: “One of the great things that Tolkien says in Lord of The Rings is “despair is the ultimate crime”. That’s the ultimate failing of Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!”
While I think Martin wrote a very compelling story in ASOIAF, I still think his work is very cynical and bleak though. I mean, can you name even one heroic character who is virtuous and actually smart? Because the rest of these good people are written to be dumb and naive who got killed easily.
@@nont18411 Brienne is written to be the epitome of romantic heroism - "No chance, and no choice" is not her being "dumb and naive", it's understanding that evil prevails only if good people who can do something about it refuse to stand up. Even if, yes, sometimes they lose their lives doing so. "Doing good is not always easy but that's when it's the most important to do it" is basically a core tenet of the series (Maester Aemon says something very similar but about duty)
@@nont18411 Easy. Davos. No question. "If Joffrey should die...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V) This quote works on multiple levels, to Davos, whether it’s a truly innocent lad like Edric, or that little shit Joff, the answer remains, still, everything. He volunteers the information that he had Edric smuggled away, kneels, offers up his life to his king, and stands by his beliefs. Davos isn’t even concerned solely for his own moral compass, but that of the king he believes to be the one should rightfully sit the throne, doing his best to save that in his journey too. Previous reply already named Brienne, and I’d agree, people in-universe only consider her stupid/naive because she’s hulking and honourable, typical stereotype applied to other characters too even when untrue. GRRM’s best heroes come from this ilk, that of outcasts. Jon the bastard, Brienne the ugly maiden, Davos the upstarted smuggler. Just because some die or make mistakes in the process, doesn’t mean they’re unheroic. The idea is not to fall prey to the cynicism of those perpetuating cycles of the game, no matter how dire the circumstances.
@@Bookborn My pleasure! Here’s another cut from the same cloth, in relation to the discussion being had with @nont18411 here: GRRM: “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.” Shooting the THANK YOU back at ya! Very grateful for this feeding of ASOIAF content from a fresh perspective.
So, the thing with Valyria The main accepted theory is that Dragons aren't natural, the Valyrians used magic to combine Fire Wyrms with Wyverns and birth the dragons. These Fire Wyrms are what are thought to have been inside the Princess As for what hurt Balerion, we have no idea, it's possible that somehow another dragon survived and fought him
@@Bookborn i also really like the theory that balerion didn't just die of old age, but that his severe injury played a major part in his demise, which is why dragons could possibly get even older than he was at the end of his life.
I think this is one of those passages where Martin shows his admiration for Lovecraft and his fascination with eldritch horrors. He also does it in the main series, in everything relating to Euron Greyjoy and the Drowned God of the Ironborn, or even with the Squishers of the legends of Crackclaw Point.
@@K4neki_CNTP I always assumed that Balerion had some worms in it and they slowly killed him. I realize now on reflection that I have no evidence for this.
"Come no closer," warned Ser Gyles Morrigen. "Any man who lays a hand upon our king and queen shall die today." Lord Rogar was dismayed. "Sheath your steel and move aside," he commanded. "Have you forgotten? I am the King's Hand." "Aye," old Sour Sam answered. "but we're the Kingsguard, not the Hand's guard, and it's the lad who sits the chair, not you." My favorite passage in the whole book kinda.
If we're sharing passages :) "...Gwayne Hightower, second in command of the gold cloaks, rushed to the stables, intending to sound the warning; he was seized, disarmed, and dragged before his commander, Luthor Largent. When Hightower denounced him as a turncloak, Ser Luthor laughed. ”Daemon gave us these cloaks,” he said, “and they’re gold no matter how you turn them.” Then he drove his sword through Ser Gwayne’s belly...."
@@VinnieMF if my memory serves me well, i'm pretty sure Gwayne and Criston are on the way to Harrenhal the last time we saw them in the s2, if Rhaenyra and Daemon attack KL in s3, i don't see any chance we would watch Gwayne Hightower book version's death...
For Fire and Blood II - Martin actually said in a blog post on September 9th he had worked on it a bit this year so I think he intends to release it after Winds but before A Dream of Spring
I didn't hear about that. I'm actually a bit sad because I wanted F&B 2 to have a section on the events of ASOIAF, so we can see how biased and off the Citadel's accounts of the story we've read are.
GRRM said that the version of Viserys I in House of the Dragon is better than the version he wrote in the book. Honestly so much is gained in adaptation sometimes and Viserys I in the show is one of the best characters in the ASOIAF universe and one of best performances as well. In the book you just know of him, but in the show you follow his entire reign and see the person who the maesters considered uninteresting. You might wanna check out the show.
Just wanna add my support to this comment, House of the Dragon is an amazing detailed adaptation of Fire and Blood, and expands on the text and has some unexpected decisions that I found really thrilling as a F&B enjoyer. Even if you have no desire to watch Game of Thrones, I would say check out HotD!
@@TheKillaShow It’s still impressive considering that most adaptations tend to lose complexity, not gain them. If they hadn’t put the effort Viserys could have been a fat fool and no one would have cared because no one expected more.
As for the 'what's happening in Valyria?' Question, the answer is probably that George Mystery-Boxed it, so he doesn't even know. It's most likely a magical-Armageddon/chernobyl or a nuclear fallout
I'm a big fan of the theory David Lightbringer posits - that the faceless men liberating the slaves interrupted ritual sacrifices that kept the fourteen flames dormant. Love the idea of their abuse of human lives and pure hubris was ultimately their downfall. And additionally, that one of the Dragonlords, possibly Aenor, put it all in motion. Aka The Doom was an Inside Job. I'm sure you're right that George himself has no clear answer, but it's fun to think about!
He has mentioned that he probably won't explain stuff like Sothoryos, Asshai and most of those mysterious places because he only created those areas as the limits of the known world so that there is an explanation of why people don't go there and explore more but he doesn't want readers to lose focus on the main plot which is what matters to him.
The world of Ice and Fire is more of an encyclopedia. But the first 100 or so pages cover Fire and Blood part 1 and 2. But it’s really brief and he doesn’t go into as much detail. So for instance, Fire and Blood part 1 is covered in about 60/70 pages. To give you an example of how brief it is. But I’d suggest reading it just so you’d get a summary of Fire and Blood part 2. Even though it’s not in detail. It lets you know the main events. And the Blackfyres come to play in that portion of the story and it’s really good imo. It makes me want Fire and Blood 2 even more lol. But at least you have an idea of the story. The rest of the book reads sort of like a textbook tbh and I never got through the entire thing. But the first section, I recommend because it tells you what happens after Fire and Blood Part 1 ends.
its honestly crazy to me that bookborn went from super not-a-fan of whatever she heard of martin & asoiaf to like being a super fan of it when she actually sat down and read it. I kept track of merphy napiers readthrough and she dropped it like mid way of clash of kings or after it, which disappointed me, so I was expecting bookborn to have a similar experience given both merphy and bookborn seem to have similar tastes and limits on what they can handle. I was so (happily) surprised when she finished all 5 books, and then A REREAD of AGOT followed by F&B. like good lord!!!
Idk why i always somehow disliked merphy i felt as she always comes off pretentious so every time she shows up on my fyp i just roll my eyes and skip. Didnt know she dropped asoiaf, seems she always drops the good ones
i know you haven’t watched the shows, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on hotd. im one of the few people who love both f&b and hotd, i think they’re really good companion pieces to one another and ive loved most of the changes and additions to the source material. it’s definitely a transformative adaptational approach that works as an interpretation of the book’s unreliable narrative. it also seems more in line with the themes and fantasy elements of asoiaf than what game of thrones was
George confirmed Haleana kills herself in a recent blog post titled ‘beware the butterflies’. He has since deleted it but you can still find it on the internet
He can only confirm that she died (maybe killed herself, maybe murdered) in the book. He's not writing on the show, so he doesn't know for sure. They're still writing season 3 and haven't written 4 yet.
@@carastone3473he did say he saw the plot breakdown for s3 and she still kills herself. If they change that, it'll probably be in response to his blog.
To hopefully put your mind at ease, George has said in the past his plan is to finish Winds, and then write more Dunk and Egg, write Blood and Fire (F&B 2), and then Dream of Spring
World of Ice and Fire is a beautiful art book and most certainly worth a place on your bookshelf or coffee table. It will be a quick read for you, but that gives more time to savor the art that is all George approved.
@@Bookborn I'd always recommend reading the preview before buying it. For TWOI&F there's a good chunk on Google Books available - though it lacks the illustrations.
@@Bookborn it wasnt written by george but by two of his few confidants that know the plot of asoiaf so its written with george his blessings and notes plus its written similary to the style of fire and blood all thought less detailed and more general but gives a lot of information not found in the books especially worldbuilding it more like " a measter wrote an encyclopedia"
It's an interesting read if you wanna know more about the world, and it has basically an abbreviated version of F&B part 2, but it does read much more like The Silmarillion than F&B does, it doesn't have as much narrative as you described, but still a fun read though.
Also, note that Robert Baratheon's grandmother is Rhaelle Targaryen -- it is what the Maesters use as justification for his claiming the throne after his conquest (despite the conquest alone being pretty convincing) (also, apologies if you referenced this -- have this on while working so not processing all words).
@@Bookborn it's 2 very small references. Early in Clash when Catelyn meets with Renly he mentions vaguely the blood ties between them, and then near the end in Feast Aemon mentions Stannis having dragon's blood through Egg's daughter, Rhaelle.
Yep, GRRM is a masterful writer. This is what makes us readers come back again and again, even when we're so frustrated with him. Don't know why, but I find it very validating to hear how much you love ASOIAF.
It’s been so fun to see you go from not being sure about getting into this series to now loving this history book! I also love Fire and Blood; I named my cat Rhaena after Queen Rhaena. I would love to see you do a video that is a deeper dive into some of the theories and such that came out of this book. Like who killed Maegor, are the eggs that Elissa Farman stole Danny’s eggs (yes obviously!!!), or just some of the weird magical stuff going on with the Targs and their dragon bonds. Also: you did much better with these names than you have yourself credit for!
Ok. Your opinion on the motherhood and the irreconcilable differences between the interests of Rhaenyra and the vilified Alicent are a must!!! I believe this can give you some meat for your catelyn defense video too!
SOoooo many thoughts, although I'll admit that Alicent does see pretty villainous ☠ Although perhaps there is a argument to be made how history is written...
@@BookbornThis is something I really like about how the show adapted it (which I'm aware you have no interest in watching! No worries), making them both more nuanced and even sympathetic. People hated this but it makes sense to me. Who wrote F&B? Maesters. Idk about y'all but the citadel always reads as misogynistic to me. It would make sense that any woman in power that isn't chaste or submissive would be cast in an evil light.
@@tobydorman3998 ??? Are you implying she doesn't fit in this? It's a more passive form of misogyny but it's there. The passage of her speaking to the archmaesters about letting women in comes to mind. Also, she married the king and bore him like eleven children, she did exactly what a queen is "supposed" to do in their eyes. It doesn't have to be blatantly malicious to be biased against her having power.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle My friend Kyle actually talked to me about her character in particular and said the show made some good choices to help her feel more nuanced and complicated and I think that's a cool choice. I probably have to reread to really sink in to how I feel about Aliciant...I was so on the side of Rhaenyra that I was a taaad blinded lol
His recent blog post was about how he's currently writing both Winds and Blood & Fire right now, and the latter comes much easier to write for him so it's quite likely that we will get the second volume after Winds (he just needs one really good year for writing and I think Winds will come out). Some of the material that will be in Blood & Fire is already published in The Wolrd of Ice and Fire coffee table book so it's safe to assume he won't take forever to write it.
RE: How George RR Martin writes such great women characters- --George Stromboulopoulos: "Another thing that's interesting about your books...I noticed that you really write women well, and really strong. How do you do that? Where does that come from? --George RR Martin: "You know... I've always considered women to be people."
The World of Ice and Fire is definitely worth a read. It is more of an encyclopedia/coffee table book (not a secret masterpiece like F&B), but it's full of lore details that are not anywhere else. A lot of it is written by George, but some is also written/summarized by his assistants Elio and Linda. The whole middle of the book is the history of the Targaryen kings. George wrote so much for this section that they couldn't fit it in the coffee table book, so what got published is a fairly dry summary (he expanded on what he wrote to make F&B volume 1... and hopefully volume 2) Much of the book is about pre-Targaryen Westerosi history and about far off cultures, and reads more like myth because the maesters don't have good historical sources. A lot of esoteric fan theories have their basis in the mythical lore nuggets in TWoiaF
I'd love to know your thoughts on Rhaena (daughter of Aenys I), I loved reading about her life and the journey she goes through. I love when she confronts Rogar, too: "Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside it."
@@Bookborn I was hoping to ask you about Rhaena if nobody had already, but she's clearly very popular! I adored her as well especially as some wonderful queer representation, her connection to Dreamfyre is a big part of why I found the Dragonpit scene so gut-wrenching. I absolutely agree with you on Fire and Blood in general. it's a somewhat divisive book, but I really really enjoyed it and you verbalised why I think I found it so good really well. When I finished it, I found myself thinking I would be just as happy with a sequel to it coming out as I would with TWOW - I'm not sure how true that is, but I loved the book. I do sort of agree with you on the ending, though - while the end of the Regency works okay as a final chapter, ending with Morning's death would've been very thematically appropriate. I suppose that going into Aegon III's reign would sort of necessitate introducing his and Viserys' children without any real character payoff for them, which might have been an influence on the decision. I would love to hear you doing a full breakdown of the book, your opinions are so interesting and well explained. I completely understand if you don't want to spend that long doing that though, lol. I an interested in what you thought of Jaeherys overall? I honestly hated him by the end, and I've seen several other fans feel the same - I really love how throughout the series he's built up as the incredible conciliator, the best king ever, but then when George reveals his actual life he was so awful to his family (especially Saera!) that I just. eugh. A few other people have also asked, but additionally, do you have any thoughts or speculation about what convinced Aegon to abandon Dorne? I saw a theory that Rhaenys was still alive in the Hellholt dungeons and would be tortured if the invasion continued, with the letter possibly even written in her blood, which seemed awfully chilling and just like something George would write. On that note, actually, what did you think of Rhaenys and Visenya? Do you know the theory that Aegon I was infertile? How do you feel about it? Loved the video and all of your ASOIAF content, looking forward to more whenever you're able to release it!!
She is my favorite in the entire book... her last days alone, sad in Harrenhal befriended by a crippled man named Maegor who was kind to her all just so bittersweet... Rhaena is so precious to me.
Fire and blood might be my favorite book in the asoiaf world. Rhaena Targaryen (sister to jahaerys and alasayne) is my favorite character. She went through so much
Love Rhaena as well. She's a pretty bad person (especially to her husband and daughter) but so compelling. Her threatening Lord Baratheon to not take any other wife after Alyssa was peak Rhaena.
You should totally read The World of Ice & Fire. First off, it has beautiful illustrations, it’s such an enjoyable experience. It also covers so much of the world you’ve wondered about! The Dawn Age and the Long Night. Asshai. Summerhall and Mad King Aerys’ reign. Worth it!
It is speculated that the worms that came out of the girl were how the great empire of the dawn created dragons form wyverns and Fire worms. As well how Targaryen got the blood of the dragon.
🟢 His prose got better 🟢 His character work got better 🔴 His plot got unfocused 🔴 The timeline has become considerably more muddled to follow 🔴 Plot progression has crawled 🔴 Point of view bloat 🔴 Feast and Dance are unfinished
Loved your video!! Would love to know your thoughts on Saera (daughter of Alysanne and Jaehaerys), Queen Alicent and Nettles. Also were you Team Green or Black during the Dance?
Saera was WILD lmao but I also felt sooo much for Alysanne at the end of her life when she was trying to reconcile with Saera and Jaehaerys wasn't willing to. Just...idk so realistic, so sad. Queen Alicent is the worst ☠ Ok, that's unfair, but I can only think of her being like "OH SO YOU JUST WANT REVENGE???" to Rh*** (whatever I don't feel like looking up how to spell her name lmao) and it's like MS ALICENT look at your life look at your choices!! So anyways I was team black lmao
The World of Ice and Fire isn't exactly and Encyclopedia, it's more of a world book, fleshing out places and families within the world, and is again written "In universe" by a Maester. I'd say you should read it over time, just to give yourself the best working knowledge of the world possible
This and twoiaf are why i never say "we've been waiting a 13 years since the last book in the series." No this IS a series book. Also, as to why i love this book, is he gives you enough to give you a narrative, but he doesn't give you everything letting you (or forcing you) to fill in the blanks with your own understanding of the world
21:34 One of the big theories is that one or a few of the builders - who Maegor killed to keep the secrets of the passages under the Red Keep - wasn't present during the killing and came back for revenge. It's my favorite theory.
When it comes to the Dragons, Sunfyre is a fan favorite. Aegon II's golden glory. GRRM somehow managed to weave a whole arc for a dragon amidst this sprawling narrative. You seriously need to dissect GRRM's writing style and make a video of it.
Yes! I was waiting for this. I loooove how Fire & Blood is written. I was surprised at how quickly I devoured it and at how I keep going back to it to read individual parts of it again.
"Fire &Blood" is a long book, but compared to the books in the main series, it is very easy to read. Plus, I love reading history books, so that one was the perfect book for me. I watched "House of the Dragon" before reading "Fire&Blood", but when I re-watched season 1, I was a little bit emotional seeing "jaehaerys I targaryen",because I now know the story of his life. Also, I might be one of my favorite targaryens.
One thing you can't underplay is how it shows through this book more than all the rest he's made that he's sat down and read actual historical accounts of humanity. What happens to Rhaegar's son and wife are a narrative appropriate nod to historical accounts of monarchical upending (to put it euphemistically), but the way each account varies based on perspective is highly refreshing in its "human verisimilitude". Weirdly enough, people in history writing *about* history had just as much capacity to lie as they do today.
Lucky for you, The World of Ice and Fire can fill in some of the gaps if we never get "Blood and Fire" (Fire and Blood 2's working title). But honestly, in one of George's most recent blog posts, he said he had been writing both "The Winds of Winter" and "Blood and Fire" so we will likely be getting the rest of the story in great detail at some point
@@VinnieMF Oh yeah, it is a title about a terrible part of her life (one of several terrible parts of her life :') ) But I guess it's the title that makes people know which Rhaena it is the fastest (Queen in the West also works)
Even though you previously stated that you probably wouldn't be checking out the GoT tv series, do you think you might consider checking out House of the Dragon? It's neat with how the showrunners and writers adapted it because F&B, while it does have some traditional storytelling elements, the gist a lot of people get is that it is like a more in-depth Wikipedia article talking about events and characters. It wasnt a straightforward adaptation like GoT was with the 5 books George had written and so more liberties were taken with HOTD. Without any spoilers, a lot of fans have enjoyed some of the changes made, particularly with Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship and the characterization of King Viserys
I lkve Fire and Blood because HOTD is what got me inyo GOT/ASOIAF. So far its the only one of George's Books I have almost fully read, (I plan to read ASOIAF the second I get a chance as I do own the books.) The fact I keep coming back to this fake history book proves how good it is imo. (Plus Danny is my favorite character both in the show and the few chapters I have read from her book counterpart so I do have a thing for Targeryansl characters, which HOTD definitely helped solidify.) lol. When I watch shows lole HOTD and then come back to Fire and Blood, yes there are some changes, (some very good changes too lole Viserys and Alicent, and Helena's characters imo,) but I can see how people like Rhaenyra and Alicent would be vilanized through history, and how oarts of their show characters would be dropped either due to bias or to amplify their villainy. At the end of the day, Aegon II is the only one ever given the title and he shows up as the main monarch in history because of the world Westeros is and how they don't want to fully acknowledge that Rhaenyra was crowned and also ruled at the time because it would go against their sexist beliefs. (The Maesters are a male only organization after all.)
Also can I just say that the Daenerys in this book that dies of the SHIVERS, was actually invented for this book. George has previously done some history via World of Ice and Fire for the whole Targeryan reign, but this Daenerys didn't exist until Fire and Blood, which as we know was written to help tie the gap between Dance and Winds. So yes George invented another Daenerys (which actually makes this the first Daenerys as opposed to the other one mentioned in ADWD which became the second Daenerys because George invented this one,) who dies of THE SHIVERS aka a terrible cold. Bookborn, I feel like George is foreshadowing Danny is going to die in TWOW or at the very least die to The Others in the future and as a Danny fan I am on edge. 👀
I would love to know what you think of the various "sources" cited in F&B. I love George's use of bias and propaganda in his works and think it really shines through in this book. Also, who would you say was the "winner" of the Dance of Dragons, if anybody?
@@Bookborn and about heroic moment of Rickard Thorne, this was like "kevan lannister thing" happened again. I choose to stand a very minor character in this book and after several paragraph George took him away. Damn you, George... 🥲
If you are sad we will never get Fire & Blood II there is actually a section in The World of Ice and Fire that covers the entire Targaryen dinasty, though obviously very very abridged. Also, I think that if you are ASOIAF fan, that book is worth reading, there are some really cool things in it and the art is very beautiful.
Daella's story is so heartbreaking to me. Just another GRRM novel showcasing the best and worst of humanity. Daella's last words to Alyssanne kill me everytime. Then on the other hand, I tear up in the positive direction at the reunion of Aegon III and his brother Viserys. Both sides of the spectrum, two iconic parts to me. So emotional, so real, I love it.
One of the main reasons I love watching these ASOIAF videos of yours is your passion for it. It is nearly palpable. I bought Fire & Blood on impulse last time I was in Walmart lol. But I need to finish the main series first. So far I've only read book one, but I loved it!
The World of Ice and Fire is basically a coffee table book with much less of a narrative than Fire & Blood. Supposedly the content was written by Martin but compiled and edited together by 2 of his assistants who are also listed as authors. Reading it is more akin to going on a wiki binge than reading a novel - I wouldn't recommend it.
I really would like to see you do a deep dive and your thoughts on the Targaryen succession with the gray rats theory. From the Hightower prophecy to the Cold War aspects of the dance with Rhaena and Rhaenys then erupting with Rhaenyra. I think it really hits on themes you like to explore about strong/complex female characters and how they navigate a patriarchal world and trying to find agency. I know a lot of people think it’s a crackhead theory but I LOVE Preston Jacobs genetics of fire and blood theory. TLDR: dragon riding is X-linked and serves as a counterbalance to patriarchy
Fire and Blood's narrative style is influenced by Thomas B Costain's 4-Volume History of the Plantagenets. GRRM spoke about this during his F&B tour. I read that book and can clearly see the influence of F&B - the unreliable accounts of events, following the reigns of the kings, etc. That book is available in the public domain and worth reading if youre interested in history. GRRM dislikes Academic History and loves Historical Fiction /Popular History. It is reflected in his writing
The book that reminds me the most of Fire & Blood is actually the Grace of Kings by Ken Liu. It definitely has a closer narrative than Fire & Blood, but definitely feels like a “history” of the beginning of the Dandelion Dynasty to setup what happens in the later books, much like what Fire & Blood does for a Song of Ice and Fire.
Loved the video! Question: Do you also love the character of Septon Barth? He seems like the closest thing we have to a reliable source when it comes to magic and dragons, IMO. Thanks Bookborn
100% should read The World of Ice and Fire!.. George wrote this coffee-table-esque book in collaboration with Elio and Linda. Where Fire and Blood has a narrative, this is all world building and ancient myths and history. You can skip the Targaryen kings section because Fire and Blood covers it, but if you want to see some cool artwork and learn about far away cities and ancient lore, this will be enjoyable. Lots of cryptic lines from George and parallels to current characters in the main series. Also written by an in-world maester and this book is supposed to exist at the citadel and in the main series as a “real” book 😄🤙🏻
I felt the same way! I feel like a lot of people didn't give this book a fair chance, but I enjoyed it just as much as the main series. It shows how good GRRM is with worldbuilding and character work. You get to see how characters are shaped by their environments, and how they in turn shape the course of the future.
I like to think that all the backstory work he's done in the last 15 years is material that needed to be written to make finishing the series go more smoothly by laying groundwork for some of the themes in the history. But also, I have to confess that I don't think we're ever seeing the end of this thing.
What did you think of Tyland Lannister? Before the dance he doesn't do anything and is kind of uninteresting, but during and after the war he becomes one of the best characters. Him and Corlys Velaryon are the true heroes of the dance
I always find it funny that most people like using a 5 point scale to rate things then use half points. I guess we all just secretly love decimal scales
Did the expanded information on house Targaryen expand or change your view of Daenerys in any way? Obviously Aegon the Conquerer is the character she has the most narrative parallels with but did any others stand out? I also find it sad that there are these rich history books about her family in Westeros filled with things that she never got to learn about or only learned minimal details on.
It did change my view! Mostly just on the series as a whole, to really understand how and why the Targaryen reign started, and why Viserys would feel it was his RIGHT to gain the throne back. It also changes my perspective on Danys future arc...seeing how dragons were used, it makes me feel that she may turn more villianous than she intends.
I can totally relate to caring about the dragons more here than in the main series. I was legitimately sad during the storming of the Dragonpit and when Sunfyre died.
Agree with what you said about Martin being able to pack a lot into few words. In this sense his writing is “dense”. This likely comes from his background as a short story writer. The prologues especially of AGOT ASOS and ADWD would be right at home in an old school horror magazine.
George had actually written most of this stuff before: The conquering, Maegor vs Aenys and the dance with dragons. The only new writing here is the Jahaerys era which is my personal favourite and also the favourite of most people out there. I think it speaks volumes that the most gripping stuff here is peace time, and George is definitely making a statement here by making peace time the most entertaining part of the whole thing.
The World of Ice and Fire is so good, Bookborn! You learn so much about Westeros, its history, cultures, houses, and more. I hope you'll read it and make a video. I'm sure you'd love it since you enjoyed Fire and Blood. 🔥
World of Ice and Fire is full of really nice art, descriptions of the different peoples of Planetos, and entries about different animals, monsters, lineages, and brief descriptions of mythic/historical events from Westeros and from around the world. Where Fire and Blood is written to mimic the style of a History Book written for a popular audience-- World of Ice and Fire is more like an illustrated encyclopedia.
I'm so glad you liked it so much! I feel like I loved it way more than a normal person should... but since you're a totally normal person, I feel like maybe I am too!
I know you don't want to watch the shows but especially with HOTD now it'd be a cool video to get your take on the casting for characters in the shows compared to your head cannon.
I was reading Fire and Blood at the same time I was reading The World of Ice and Fire so I forgot where the first stopped. George RR Martin wrote TWoIaF and at times you see the exact same sentences in both books, but it's way more like an encyclopedia. It's still nice if you really wanna know the key events of what happened between Fire and Blood and the SoIaF series and it has beautiful illustrations and helpful family trees. About Blood and Cheese, it got recently adapted into live action and George never seemed as bothered with GoT as he did with that scene.. they pretty much ignored one of the boys' existence and took away the weight of the queen's choice that's present in the book
I was eagerly waiting for your review of F&B. So eager that i was kind of underwhelmed that you could only touch certain plot points briefly. 😅 Septon Barth's account of Aerea Targaryan can be a whole video in itself. What a masterclass from GRRM. The mystery of Valyria doesnt interest me so much as the writing of that whole account. The first time i listened to it (amazing narration by Simon Vance) i got goosebumps. I revisit that section periodically to take notes on GRRM's writing. Easily the highlight of the book. Edit: GRRM clearly got inspired by HP Lovecraft while writing about Aerea.
You forgot the whole murder mystery of Dragonstone. When Rhaena pulls off the killer's mask and it turns out to be Androw Farman. Meddling Targs, seriously😂
The most craziest thing about what happened to Aerea and Balerion, is that.....they survived a YEAR in Valyria probably. Like there is food and water and they managed to be okay all that time. So what exactly happened that saw both of them flee bach home?
So, fire and blood was originally a short story within an Anthology series named Dangerous Women, amazing boom worth the buy btw, and I was hyped when the full book came out
On a recent blog post George said he was writing chapters for part 2 it’s possible we will get part 2 sooner than expected. Certainly sooner than spring 😅
The World of Ice and Fire is a lot like Fire and Blood, but with incredible art. There is some overlapping material with the Targaryens, but a ton of new stuff with other houses and the rest of the world.
Queen Alyssane is probably the best written character in the book for me. One of her last scenes where she rides her dragon for the last time and comes down crying because she knows it’s the last time is genuinely heartbreaking
SHES SO GOOD!!! Everything about her life is so well done
I rarely get emotional, I did so twice while reading F&B, and the first was when I was finishing the last of Alysanne, that pictire of her older really got me 😢
That period of the book is the one Martin wrote more recently and I think it shows. The other characters who can compete with Queen Alyssane for best writing are also around the same stretch of the story: her mother (Queen Alyssa), her aunt (Queen Rhaena) and her brother/husband (King Jaehaerys).
Despite it being written as a history book there’s so many great characters and complete stories in here
Yes! Complete arcs! man knows how to write a story and characters
Jahaerys |, alysanne, addam, aegon 2nd, daemon.
My ultimate top 5 characters.
Some people consider it to be too "dry", but I love Fire and Blood. I dunno, maybe it's the history major in me 😂
The multiple sources and unreliable historians is what makes it great for me, haven't read a book thats written like an in-universe history book before.
"Dry." That's an interesting description for F&B
I’m not a history buff in any way and yet here I am RIVETED by fake history it’s so unserious 🤣
I agree, you also get more and more out of it after each read
To be fair, people like it wet.
The end part about Quentyn lol. Talk about a chef's kiss 🤣
😁
@@Bookborn 'oh'
Bookborn's officially on Preston's hit list.
@@VinnieMF only getting him back for ruining my life with time travel revelations (affectionate)
@@Bookborn Your reaction in that live when he said it was so funny but I can relate. Confirmed time travel in asoiaf was also traumatic to me back in 2016 😂
Stannis dragging Rhaenyra as an usurping traitor is so funny when you read Fire and Blood and see how many parallels they have 😅
Stannis never tried to put a bastard on the throne
@@jimboslice6367 Mmm well he certainly wants to raise Jon Snow to Lord of Winterfell to be sure, Stannis isn't a stranger to working with bastards. But I didn't say they were the same character, just have a lot of parallels.
@@jimboslice6367 I have to mention the defamation of Shireen being Patchface's daughter with Selyse lmao
@@VinnieMF what crackpot drunk theory is that
@@jimboslice6367 It's not a theory, it's Littlefinger's/Cersei's defamation of Stannis in Clash. It cracks me up every time 😂
Your "optmism"( not really optmism, but a just a positive realness about everything) is such a breath of fresh air, because YES i love fire and blood, and if george wants to publish the part 2 instead of main asoiaf, i will still love it and I will BUY IT
You will hear NO complaints from me, I'll be seated and ready to binge
@@Bookborn Same. Whatever George releases, I'm reading it and not complaining about what he *hasn't* released yet!
@@Bookborn i dont think George would release either F&B 2 or Dunk and Egg 2 before TWOW as those 2 would spoil some things meant to be revealed in TWOW
@@ihuh1000 I agree! and basically came to the comments to say the same thing. I want Blood & Fire BAD, but I think some of the reveals about summerhall & things will be best in Winds, from Bloodraven & Bran, with more context later from B&F, then the later D&E books.
Another interesting thing about the Baratheon-Targaryen connection, is that Robert’s (and Stannis and Renly’s) grandmother was a Targaryen. One of the reasons he was chosen to become king out of the main rebels who overthrew the mad king, was because they felt him being partially Targaryen would make him look more legitimate to Westeros.
Also, would love a video on how you felt about the Greens and the Blacks, both really compelling sides with lots of interesting characters. For me the Greens are one of the most interesting families in all of George’s ASOIAF world
It kind of leans to the history of kinslayers being cursed too, from the moment the hammer killed Rhaegar, Robert lived the most miserable life for being a king.
@@GreyMagee74 Could be, although I don't think Martin intended it that way. It's only his second-cousin (or however it's called in english), and they probably never viewed each other as family.
@Fenix-lr6ez maybe, maybe not. It's just one of those amazing wrinkles in the universe.
And with their relations, we won't know until George says so, or there is some spinoff story about the Rebellion where we get their POVs and get that glimpse into their mind about each other. (we definitely won't be getting this sadly😂).
I would think they did call each other cousin to a point because they grew up together till Robert went to The Vale since Steffon was Aerys' other best friend and was a part of his Small Council till he died.
That's just my opinion based on the facts we know from the stated Canon i could be completely wrong.
@@GreyMagee74 oh I didn't consider Steffon being in Aerys' council, true. Although wasn't Rhaegar like 8 years older than Ned and Robert? If so, Rhaegar would double Robert's age when they were together, so dunno if they had any relations.
But as you say, we'll never know for sure unless George decides to dig deeper into it. Cheers!
Did I miss that their grandmother was a Targaryen in the main series?? Probably since I didn't think much about history lol. I was on team Black...I know there was a lot of reason not to be buuutttt still lmao
Any time I hear someone call this series nihilistic, it makes me think either a.) they don’t understand nihilism, or b.) they haven’t actually read the series. I love that, as someone with a wide booktube audience, you continue to highlight George’s romanticism. I think ASOIAF is some of the most effective fantasy hopecore since LOTR.
George: “One of the great things that Tolkien says in Lord of The Rings is “despair is the ultimate crime”. That’s the ultimate failing of Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!”
That George quote is incredible and I am saving it for future reference. THANK YOU
While I think Martin wrote a very compelling story in ASOIAF, I still think his work is very cynical and bleak though.
I mean, can you name even one heroic character who is virtuous and actually smart? Because the rest of these good people are written to be dumb and naive who got killed easily.
@@nont18411 Brienne is written to be the epitome of romantic heroism - "No chance, and no choice" is not her being "dumb and naive", it's understanding that evil prevails only if good people who can do something about it refuse to stand up. Even if, yes, sometimes they lose their lives doing so. "Doing good is not always easy but that's when it's the most important to do it" is basically a core tenet of the series (Maester Aemon says something very similar but about duty)
@@nont18411 Easy. Davos. No question.
"If Joffrey should die...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.
(ASOS, Davos V)
This quote works on multiple levels, to Davos, whether it’s a truly innocent lad like Edric, or that little shit Joff, the answer remains, still, everything. He volunteers the information that he had Edric smuggled away, kneels, offers up his life to his king, and stands by his beliefs. Davos isn’t even concerned solely for his own moral compass, but that of the king he believes to be the one should rightfully sit the throne, doing his best to save that in his journey too.
Previous reply already named Brienne, and I’d agree, people in-universe only consider her stupid/naive because she’s hulking and honourable, typical stereotype applied to other characters too even when untrue.
GRRM’s best heroes come from this ilk, that of outcasts. Jon the bastard, Brienne the ugly maiden, Davos the upstarted smuggler. Just because some die or make mistakes in the process, doesn’t mean they’re unheroic. The idea is not to fall prey to the cynicism of those perpetuating cycles of the game, no matter how dire the circumstances.
@@Bookborn My pleasure! Here’s another cut from the same cloth, in relation to the discussion being had with @nont18411 here:
GRRM: “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.”
Shooting the THANK YOU back at ya! Very grateful for this feeding of ASOIAF content from a fresh perspective.
So, the thing with Valyria
The main accepted theory is that Dragons aren't natural, the Valyrians used magic to combine Fire Wyrms with Wyverns and birth the dragons.
These Fire Wyrms are what are thought to have been inside the Princess
As for what hurt Balerion, we have no idea, it's possible that somehow another dragon survived and fought him
Creepy. love it.
Fire Wyrms are supposed to be able to reach colossal sizes. Likely it was a wyrm that attacked balerion.
@@Bookborn i also really like the theory that balerion didn't just die of old age, but that his severe injury played a major part in his demise, which is why dragons could possibly get even older than he was at the end of his life.
I think this is one of those passages where Martin shows his admiration for Lovecraft and his fascination with eldritch horrors. He also does it in the main series, in everything relating to Euron Greyjoy and the Drowned God of the Ironborn, or even with the Squishers of the legends of Crackclaw Point.
@@K4neki_CNTP I always assumed that Balerion had some worms in it and they slowly killed him. I realize now on reflection that I have no evidence for this.
"Come no closer," warned Ser Gyles Morrigen. "Any man who lays a hand upon our king and queen shall die today." Lord Rogar was dismayed. "Sheath your steel and move aside," he commanded. "Have you forgotten? I am the King's Hand." "Aye," old Sour Sam answered. "but we're the Kingsguard, not the Hand's guard, and it's the lad who sits the chair, not you." My favorite passage in the whole book kinda.
If we're sharing passages :)
"...Gwayne Hightower, second in command of the gold cloaks, rushed to the stables, intending to sound the warning; he was seized, disarmed, and dragged before his commander, Luthor Largent. When Hightower denounced him as a turncloak, Ser Luthor laughed. ”Daemon gave us these cloaks,” he said, “and they’re gold no matter how you turn them.” Then he drove his sword through Ser Gwayne’s belly...."
I LOVED THIS PART SOOOO MUCH
@@TZD11111 Hope they do this one justice in HOTD
That part always makes me smile cuz it's soooo good
@@VinnieMF if my memory serves me well, i'm pretty sure Gwayne and Criston are on the way to Harrenhal the last time we saw them in the s2, if Rhaenyra and Daemon attack KL in s3, i don't see any chance we would watch Gwayne Hightower book version's death...
For Fire and Blood II - Martin actually said in a blog post on September 9th he had worked on it a bit this year so I think he intends to release it after Winds but before A Dream of Spring
So in 5-10 years from now?
Ooohhhh 👀 lets all manifest this please 🙏✨🔮
@@Bookborn not only that but he also said he would do F&B2 after winds so it was the plan.
I didn't hear about that. I'm actually a bit sad because I wanted F&B 2 to have a section on the events of ASOIAF, so we can see how biased and off the Citadel's accounts of the story we've read are.
He also mentioned that the current name for that second part is Blood & Fire
GRRM said that the version of Viserys I in House of the Dragon is better than the version he wrote in the book. Honestly so much is gained in adaptation sometimes and Viserys I in the show is one of the best characters in the ASOIAF universe and one of best performances as well. In the book you just know of him, but in the show you follow his entire reign and see the person who the maesters considered uninteresting. You might wanna check out the show.
Paddy diserves a wall full of awards for that performance, so good!
@@cosmopeaches2604 him being snubbed for the Emmy’s was unforgivable.
Just wanna add my support to this comment, House of the Dragon is an amazing detailed adaptation of Fire and Blood, and expands on the text and has some unexpected decisions that I found really thrilling as a F&B enjoyer. Even if you have no desire to watch Game of Thrones, I would say check out HotD!
The bar wasn’t high to be fair. George wrote him as dumb and fat. The show had to do more and hit it out the park.
@@TheKillaShow It’s still impressive considering that most adaptations tend to lose complexity, not gain them. If they hadn’t put the effort Viserys could have been a fat fool and no one would have cared because no one expected more.
This was quite the journey to see you from not being so sure about asoif to getting so into it.
ASOIAF is highly addictive. It is known.
As for the 'what's happening in Valyria?' Question, the answer is probably that George Mystery-Boxed it, so he doesn't even know. It's most likely a magical-Armageddon/chernobyl or a nuclear fallout
That was sort of my impression like...something weird is happening but it may not necessarily be defined
I'm a big fan of the theory David Lightbringer posits - that the faceless men liberating the slaves interrupted ritual sacrifices that kept the fourteen flames dormant. Love the idea of their abuse of human lives and pure hubris was ultimately their downfall. And additionally, that one of the Dragonlords, possibly Aenor, put it all in motion. Aka The Doom was an Inside Job. I'm sure you're right that George himself has no clear answer, but it's fun to think about!
He has mentioned that he probably won't explain stuff like Sothoryos, Asshai and most of those mysterious places because he only created those areas as the limits of the known world so that there is an explanation of why people don't go there and explore more but he doesn't want readers to lose focus on the main plot which is what matters to him.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle David didn't come up with that theory
It's all very Atlantis and Numenor but probably leaning closer to Atlantis so it's more mysterious and we'll never know.
The world of Ice and Fire is more of an encyclopedia. But the first 100 or so pages cover Fire and Blood part 1 and 2. But it’s really brief and he doesn’t go into as much detail. So for instance, Fire and Blood part 1 is covered in about 60/70 pages. To give you an example of how brief it is. But I’d suggest reading it just so you’d get a summary of Fire and Blood part 2. Even though it’s not in detail. It lets you know the main events. And the Blackfyres come to play in that portion of the story and it’s really good imo. It makes me want Fire and Blood 2 even more lol. But at least you have an idea of the story. The rest of the book reads sort of like a textbook tbh and I never got through the entire thing.
But the first section, I recommend because it tells you what happens after Fire and Blood Part 1 ends.
its honestly crazy to me that bookborn went from super not-a-fan of whatever she heard of martin & asoiaf to like being a super fan of it when she actually sat down and read it.
I kept track of merphy napiers readthrough and she dropped it like mid way of clash of kings or after it, which disappointed me, so I was expecting bookborn to have a similar experience given both merphy and bookborn seem to have similar tastes and limits on what they can handle. I was so (happily) surprised when she finished all 5 books, and then A REREAD of AGOT followed by F&B. like good lord!!!
Idk why i always somehow disliked merphy i felt as she always comes off pretentious so every time she shows up on my fyp i just roll my eyes and skip. Didnt know she dropped asoiaf, seems she always drops the good ones
i know you haven’t watched the shows, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on hotd. im one of the few people who love both f&b and hotd, i think they’re really good companion pieces to one another and ive loved most of the changes and additions to the source material. it’s definitely a transformative adaptational approach that works as an interpretation of the book’s unreliable narrative. it also seems more in line with the themes and fantasy elements of asoiaf than what game of thrones was
George confirmed Haleana kills herself in a recent blog post titled ‘beware the butterflies’. He has since deleted it but you can still find it on the internet
He can only confirm that she died (maybe killed herself, maybe murdered) in the book. He's not writing on the show, so he doesn't know for sure. They're still writing season 3 and haven't written 4 yet.
@@carastone3473 he confirmed in the post she killed herself in the book and the reasons why. Read the blog post
Is this the same infamous deleted blog post that complained about the show
@@carastone3473he did say he saw the plot breakdown for s3 and she still kills herself. If they change that, it'll probably be in response to his blog.
@@Bookborn yes, its an interesting read and now that you’ve read Fire and Blood it won’t spoil anything for you
To hopefully put your mind at ease, George has said in the past his plan is to finish Winds, and then write more Dunk and Egg, write Blood and Fire (F&B 2), and then Dream of Spring
And then dream of spring as "dreaming of spring" xD
ooohhh so it's MORE likely than spring. That's sort of funny to me for some reason, but I aint complaining
He will need to live for another 70 years then....
He is 78 years old so realistically it's highly unlikely he will manage to release all that content.
@@Bookborn to be honest F&B2 is probably more likely than TWOW
I have never clicked on a video so fast!
I've been waiting for this!!!!!!!!
World of Ice and Fire is a beautiful art book and most certainly worth a place on your bookshelf or coffee table. It will be a quick read for you, but that gives more time to savor the art that is all George approved.
this
Sounds like the rousing consensus is to buy it and read it. Done ✅
@@Bookborn I'd always recommend reading the preview before buying it. For TWOI&F there's a good chunk on Google Books available - though it lacks the illustrations.
@@Bookborn it wasnt written by george but by two of his few confidants that know the plot of asoiaf so its written with george his blessings and notes plus its written similary to the style of fire and blood all thought less detailed and more general but gives a lot of information not found in the books especially worldbuilding it more like " a measter wrote an encyclopedia"
It's an interesting read if you wanna know more about the world, and it has basically an abbreviated version of F&B part 2, but it does read much more like The Silmarillion than F&B does, it doesn't have as much narrative as you described, but still a fun read though.
Also, note that Robert Baratheon's grandmother is Rhaelle Targaryen -- it is what the Maesters use as justification for his claiming the throne after his conquest (despite the conquest alone being pretty convincing) (also, apologies if you referenced this -- have this on while working so not processing all words).
was that in the main series and I missed it on the first read? so interesting
@@Bookborn it's 2 very small references. Early in Clash when Catelyn meets with Renly he mentions vaguely the blood ties between them, and then near the end in Feast Aemon mentions Stannis having dragon's blood through Egg's daughter, Rhaelle.
@@cdgodin That's for sure something I'll be looking for on the reread
@@Bookborn its also mentioned in ASOS by Olenna. She says something along the lines of Renly being queer because of his targaryen blood
I KNEW IT, gosh we are just on the EXACT same wavelength with ASoIaF takes, you literally NEVER miss
Yep, GRRM is a masterful writer. This is what makes us readers come back again and again, even when we're so frustrated with him. Don't know why, but I find it very validating to hear how much you love ASOIAF.
It’s been so fun to see you go from not being sure about getting into this series to now loving this history book! I also love Fire and Blood; I named my cat Rhaena after Queen Rhaena. I would love to see you do a video that is a deeper dive into some of the theories and such that came out of this book. Like who killed Maegor, are the eggs that Elissa Farman stole Danny’s eggs (yes obviously!!!), or just some of the weird magical stuff going on with the Targs and their dragon bonds. Also: you did much better with these names than you have yourself credit for!
Oh I LOOOVED the Elissa Farman detail! I was like .... DANYS EGGS! so obviously those are it, right??
Ok. Your opinion on the motherhood and the irreconcilable differences between the interests of Rhaenyra and the vilified Alicent are a must!!! I believe this can give you some meat for your catelyn defense video too!
SOoooo many thoughts, although I'll admit that Alicent does see pretty villainous ☠ Although perhaps there is a argument to be made how history is written...
@@BookbornThis is something I really like about how the show adapted it (which I'm aware you have no interest in watching! No worries), making them both more nuanced and even sympathetic. People hated this but it makes sense to me. Who wrote F&B? Maesters. Idk about y'all but the citadel always reads as misogynistic to me. It would make sense that any woman in power that isn't chaste or submissive would be cast in an evil light.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle Alyssane?
@@tobydorman3998 ??? Are you implying she doesn't fit in this? It's a more passive form of misogyny but it's there. The passage of her speaking to the archmaesters about letting women in comes to mind. Also, she married the king and bore him like eleven children, she did exactly what a queen is "supposed" to do in their eyes. It doesn't have to be blatantly malicious to be biased against her having power.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle My friend Kyle actually talked to me about her character in particular and said the show made some good choices to help her feel more nuanced and complicated and I think that's a cool choice. I probably have to reread to really sink in to how I feel about Aliciant...I was so on the side of Rhaenyra that I was a taaad blinded lol
His recent blog post was about how he's currently writing both Winds and Blood & Fire right now, and the latter comes much easier to write for him so it's quite likely that we will get the second volume after Winds (he just needs one really good year for writing and I think Winds will come out). Some of the material that will be in Blood & Fire is already published in The Wolrd of Ice and Fire coffee table book so it's safe to assume he won't take forever to write it.
I agree.
I espescially agree with the "one good year for winds", i also see it like that.
RE: How George RR Martin writes such great women characters-
--George Stromboulopoulos: "Another thing that's interesting about your books...I noticed that you really write women well, and really strong. How do you do that? Where does that come from?
--George RR Martin: "You know... I've always considered women to be people."
“Why did you write gay characters in your story.”
GRRM: “Because there are gay people in real life so I think I should include ones in my story too.”
The World of Ice and Fire is definitely worth a read. It is more of an encyclopedia/coffee table book (not a secret masterpiece like F&B), but it's full of lore details that are not anywhere else. A lot of it is written by George, but some is also written/summarized by his assistants Elio and Linda. The whole middle of the book is the history of the Targaryen kings. George wrote so much for this section that they couldn't fit it in the coffee table book, so what got published is a fairly dry summary (he expanded on what he wrote to make F&B volume 1... and hopefully volume 2) Much of the book is about pre-Targaryen Westerosi history and about far off cultures, and reads more like myth because the maesters don't have good historical sources. A lot of esoteric fan theories have their basis in the mythical lore nuggets in TWoiaF
I'd love to know your thoughts on Rhaena (daughter of Aenys I), I loved reading about her life and the journey she goes through. I love when she confronts Rogar, too: "Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside it."
She is one of my top 3 characters. love her, love her story
This is one of my FAVOURITE passages. What a scene!! Iconic
@@Bookborn I was hoping to ask you about Rhaena if nobody had already, but she's clearly very popular! I adored her as well especially as some wonderful queer representation, her connection to Dreamfyre is a big part of why I found the Dragonpit scene so gut-wrenching.
I absolutely agree with you on Fire and Blood in general. it's a somewhat divisive book, but I really really enjoyed it and you verbalised why I think I found it so good really well. When I finished it, I found myself thinking I would be just as happy with a sequel to it coming out as I would with TWOW - I'm not sure how true that is, but I loved the book. I do sort of agree with you on the ending, though - while the end of the Regency works okay as a final chapter, ending with Morning's death would've been very thematically appropriate. I suppose that going into Aegon III's reign would sort of necessitate introducing his and Viserys' children without any real character payoff for them, which might have been an influence on the decision.
I would love to hear you doing a full breakdown of the book, your opinions are so interesting and well explained. I completely understand if you don't want to spend that long doing that though, lol. I an interested in what you thought of Jaeherys overall? I honestly hated him by the end, and I've seen several other fans feel the same - I really love how throughout the series he's built up as the incredible conciliator, the best king ever, but then when George reveals his actual life he was so awful to his family (especially Saera!) that I just. eugh.
A few other people have also asked, but additionally, do you have any thoughts or speculation about what convinced Aegon to abandon Dorne? I saw a theory that Rhaenys was still alive in the Hellholt dungeons and would be tortured if the invasion continued, with the letter possibly even written in her blood, which seemed awfully chilling and just like something George would write. On that note, actually, what did you think of Rhaenys and Visenya? Do you know the theory that Aegon I was infertile? How do you feel about it?
Loved the video and all of your ASOIAF content, looking forward to more whenever you're able to release it!!
She is my favorite in the entire book... her last days alone, sad in Harrenhal befriended by a crippled man named Maegor who was kind to her all just so bittersweet... Rhaena is so precious to me.
Fire and blood might be my favorite book in the asoiaf world. Rhaena Targaryen (sister to jahaerys and alasayne) is my favorite character. She went through so much
I looooove Rhaena
Love Rhaena as well. She's a pretty bad person (especially to her husband and daughter) but so compelling. Her threatening Lord Baratheon to not take any other wife after Alyssa was peak Rhaena.
You should totally read The World of Ice & Fire. First off, it has beautiful illustrations, it’s such an enjoyable experience. It also covers so much of the world you’ve wondered about! The Dawn Age and the Long Night. Asshai. Summerhall and Mad King Aerys’ reign. Worth it!
It is speculated that the worms that came out of the girl were how the great empire of the dawn created dragons form wyverns and Fire worms. As well how Targaryen got the blood of the dragon.
World of Ice and Fire covers the rest of the Targaryen kings if you don’t want to wait for Fire and Blood 2
I couldn’t agree more about George’s writing. He has only become better and better.
Unfortunately I think the over critique is more a byproduct of the toxicity of rabid fandom than anything else.
🟢 His prose got better
🟢 His character work got better
🔴 His plot got unfocused
🔴 The timeline has become considerably more muddled to follow
🔴 Plot progression has crawled
🔴 Point of view bloat
🔴 Feast and Dance are unfinished
@@VinnieMF I just don't agree
Loved your video!! Would love to know your thoughts on Saera (daughter of Alysanne and Jaehaerys), Queen Alicent and Nettles. Also were you Team Green or Black during the Dance?
Saera was WILD lmao but I also felt sooo much for Alysanne at the end of her life when she was trying to reconcile with Saera and Jaehaerys wasn't willing to. Just...idk so realistic, so sad. Queen Alicent is the worst ☠ Ok, that's unfair, but I can only think of her being like "OH SO YOU JUST WANT REVENGE???" to Rh*** (whatever I don't feel like looking up how to spell her name lmao) and it's like MS ALICENT look at your life look at your choices!!
So anyways I was team black lmao
@@Bookborn Thx for replying!!
I’m so happy to hear you liked it. I think it’s tragically underrated
The World of Ice and Fire isn't exactly and Encyclopedia, it's more of a world book, fleshing out places and families within the world, and is again written "In universe" by a Maester.
I'd say you should read it over time, just to give yourself the best working knowledge of the world possible
This and twoiaf are why i never say "we've been waiting a 13 years since the last book in the series." No this IS a series book.
Also, as to why i love this book, is he gives you enough to give you a narrative, but he doesn't give you everything letting you (or forcing you) to fill in the blanks with your own understanding of the world
Now you will need to read "World of Ice and Fire" to see the rest, short version
21:34 One of the big theories is that one or a few of the builders - who Maegor killed to keep the secrets of the passages under the Red Keep - wasn't present during the killing and came back for revenge. It's my favorite theory.
When it comes to the Dragons, Sunfyre is a fan favorite. Aegon II's golden glory. GRRM somehow managed to weave a whole arc for a dragon amidst this sprawling narrative. You seriously need to dissect GRRM's writing style and make a video of it.
Yes! I was waiting for this. I loooove how Fire & Blood is written. I was surprised at how quickly I devoured it and at how I keep going back to it to read individual parts of it again.
I came from the show so i tried to read this first and it didn't work out. I then read the five main books and came back and LOVED this one.
Yeah I def think fire and blood is incredible after the main series - I don’t think it would’ve worked for me either to read it first!
Babe wake up another ASOIAF Bookborn vid just dropped
"Fire &Blood" is a long book, but compared to the books in the main series, it is very easy to read. Plus, I love reading history books, so that one was the perfect book for me. I watched "House of the Dragon" before reading "Fire&Blood", but when I re-watched season 1, I was a little bit emotional seeing "jaehaerys I targaryen",because I now know the story of his life. Also, I might be one of my favorite targaryens.
One thing you can't underplay is how it shows through this book more than all the rest he's made that he's sat down and read actual historical accounts of humanity. What happens to Rhaegar's son and wife are a narrative appropriate nod to historical accounts of monarchical upending (to put it euphemistically), but the way each account varies based on perspective is highly refreshing in its "human verisimilitude". Weirdly enough, people in history writing *about* history had just as much capacity to lie as they do today.
Lucky for you, The World of Ice and Fire can fill in some of the gaps if we never get "Blood and Fire" (Fire and Blood 2's working title). But honestly, in one of George's most recent blog posts, he said he had been writing both "The Winds of Winter" and "Blood and Fire" so we will likely be getting the rest of the story in great detail at some point
Rhaena the Black Bride is to me what Catelyn and Sansa are to you (and also to me) 😤
Black Bride is such a depressing title. I always go for The Queen in the West or Lady of Harrenhal.
@@VinnieMF Oh yeah, it is a title about a terrible part of her life (one of several terrible parts of her life :') ) But I guess it's the title that makes people know which Rhaena it is the fastest (Queen in the West also works)
I’d love to hear your theory on the letter Aegon received from Dorne that made him settle for peace.
I see Valyria as an apocalyptic cauldron of a city with poison and fire within it. I have no idea how much magic is left there.
Mushroom is the greatest historian and I believe everything he wrote.
You should read "The World of Ice and Fire" too! It's the entire world history, not only the Targaryen dynasty!
Even though you previously stated that you probably wouldn't be checking out the GoT tv series, do you think you might consider checking out House of the Dragon? It's neat with how the showrunners and writers adapted it because F&B, while it does have some traditional storytelling elements, the gist a lot of people get is that it is like a more in-depth Wikipedia article talking about events and characters. It wasnt a straightforward adaptation like GoT was with the 5 books George had written and so more liberties were taken with HOTD. Without any spoilers, a lot of fans have enjoyed some of the changes made, particularly with Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship and the characterization of King Viserys
it’s incredible work, don’t get most of the criticisms it has received
@@fabiolaliano8620 season 1 is great, season 2 is mid
I lkve Fire and Blood because HOTD is what got me inyo GOT/ASOIAF. So far its the only one of George's Books I have almost fully read, (I plan to read ASOIAF the second I get a chance as I do own the books.)
The fact I keep coming back to this fake history book proves how good it is imo. (Plus Danny is my favorite character both in the show and the few chapters I have read from her book counterpart so I do have a thing for Targeryansl characters, which HOTD definitely helped solidify.) lol.
When I watch shows lole HOTD and then come back to Fire and Blood, yes there are some changes, (some very good changes too lole Viserys and Alicent, and Helena's characters imo,) but I can see how people like Rhaenyra and Alicent would be vilanized through history, and how oarts of their show characters would be dropped either due to bias or to amplify their villainy. At the end of the day, Aegon II is the only one ever given the title and he shows up as the main monarch in history because of the world Westeros is and how they don't want to fully acknowledge that Rhaenyra was crowned and also ruled at the time because it would go against their sexist beliefs. (The Maesters are a male only organization after all.)
Also can I just say that the Daenerys in this book that dies of the SHIVERS, was actually invented for this book. George has previously done some history via World of Ice and Fire for the whole Targeryan reign, but this Daenerys didn't exist until Fire and Blood, which as we know was written to help tie the gap between Dance and Winds. So yes George invented another Daenerys (which actually makes this the first Daenerys as opposed to the other one mentioned in ADWD which became the second Daenerys because George invented this one,) who dies of THE SHIVERS aka a terrible cold. Bookborn, I feel like George is foreshadowing Danny is going to die in TWOW or at the very least die to The Others in the future and as a Danny fan I am on edge. 👀
I would love to know what you think of the various "sources" cited in F&B. I love George's use of bias and propaganda in his works and think it really shines through in this book.
Also, who would you say was the "winner" of the Dance of Dragons, if anybody?
Maelor's death in this book is so so soooo brutal and gut wrenching i can't 😭😭😭😭😭
I was sooooo upset. I was all ready for a heroic moment and 🤪🤪🤪🤪
@@Bookborn George was like: you think Blood and Cheese is the most horrible thing you read in this book? Hahaha i have bad news for ya... 😜
@@Bookborn and about heroic moment of Rickard Thorne, this was like "kevan lannister thing" happened again. I choose to stand a very minor character in this book and after several paragraph George took him away. Damn you, George... 🥲
@@rafaelblake7278 they sense it. THEY SENSE IT!
If you are sad we will never get Fire & Blood II there is actually a section in The World of Ice and Fire that covers the entire Targaryen dinasty, though obviously very very abridged. Also, I think that if you are ASOIAF fan, that book is worth reading, there are some really cool things in it and the art is very beautiful.
Daella's story is so heartbreaking to me. Just another GRRM novel showcasing the best and worst of humanity. Daella's last words to Alyssanne kill me everytime. Then on the other hand, I tear up in the positive direction at the reunion of Aegon III and his brother Viserys. Both sides of the spectrum, two iconic parts to me. So emotional, so real, I love it.
One of the main reasons I love watching these ASOIAF videos of yours is your passion for it. It is nearly palpable. I bought Fire & Blood on impulse last time I was in Walmart lol. But I need to finish the main series first. So far I've only read book one, but I loved it!
The World of Ice and Fire is basically a coffee table book with much less of a narrative than Fire & Blood. Supposedly the content was written by Martin but compiled and edited together by 2 of his assistants who are also listed as authors. Reading it is more akin to going on a wiki binge than reading a novel - I wouldn't recommend it.
I really would like to see you do a deep dive and your thoughts on the Targaryen succession with the gray rats theory. From the Hightower prophecy to the Cold War aspects of the dance with Rhaena and Rhaenys then erupting with Rhaenyra. I think it really hits on themes you like to explore about strong/complex female characters and how they navigate a patriarchal world and trying to find agency. I know a lot of people think it’s a crackhead theory but I LOVE Preston Jacobs genetics of fire and blood theory. TLDR: dragon riding is X-linked and serves as a counterbalance to patriarchy
Fire and Blood's narrative style is influenced by Thomas B Costain's 4-Volume History of the Plantagenets. GRRM spoke about this during his F&B tour. I read that book and can clearly see the influence of F&B - the unreliable accounts of events, following the reigns of the kings, etc.
That book is available in the public domain and worth reading if youre interested in history.
GRRM dislikes Academic History and loves Historical Fiction /Popular History. It is reflected in his writing
The book that reminds me the most of Fire & Blood is actually the Grace of Kings by Ken Liu. It definitely has a closer narrative than Fire & Blood, but definitely feels like a “history” of the beginning of the Dandelion Dynasty to setup what happens in the later books, much like what Fire & Blood does for a Song of Ice and Fire.
very interesting you say that because I ALSO thought about Dandelion Dynasty while reading F&B! I totally see the connection
Totally agree!
Loved the video! Question: Do you also love the character of Septon Barth? He seems like the closest thing we have to a reliable source when it comes to magic and dragons, IMO. Thanks Bookborn
In a recent interview or blog post, he says he is making progress for F&B 2. He writes that in between. I honestly think we will get F&B 2 and WoW.
100% should read The World of Ice and Fire!.. George wrote this coffee-table-esque book in collaboration with Elio and Linda. Where Fire and Blood has a narrative, this is all world building and ancient myths and history. You can skip the Targaryen kings section because Fire and Blood covers it, but if you want to see some cool artwork and learn about far away cities and ancient lore, this will be enjoyable. Lots of cryptic lines from George and parallels to current characters in the main series. Also written by an in-world maester and this book is supposed to exist at the citadel and in the main series as a “real” book 😄🤙🏻
George kinda confirmed recently that Helena did kill herself. I think he did by accident, but he kind of did...
Absolutely love how much you’ve fallen for this series!
Yay im glad you got through and enjoyed the new style
We are so back
If dragons are the atom bomb of Westeros, Valyria is Chernobyl. There is no way Euron Greyjoy sailed there.
World of Ice and Fire is a picture book with backstory and lore. I haven't got it yet.
I felt the same way! I feel like a lot of people didn't give this book a fair chance, but I enjoyed it just as much as the main series. It shows how good GRRM is with worldbuilding and character work. You get to see how characters are shaped by their environments, and how they in turn shape the course of the future.
I like to think that all the backstory work he's done in the last 15 years is material that needed to be written to make finishing the series go more smoothly by laying groundwork for some of the themes in the history.
But also, I have to confess that I don't think we're ever seeing the end of this thing.
I love Rhaena (Aenys' daughter), she's so interesting and badass
What did you think of Tyland Lannister? Before the dance he doesn't do anything and is kind of uninteresting, but during and after the war he becomes one of the best characters. Him and Corlys Velaryon are the true heroes of the dance
I feel like Rhaenyra & Aegon work as a good prelude and comparison to the upcoming feud between fAegon & Dany
I always find it funny that most people like using a 5 point scale to rate things then use half points. I guess we all just secretly love decimal scales
I find that people who use the ten point system STILL use decimals lmao so it's hard to escape
@@Bookborn the people yearn for percentiles
I always liked to theorize that the Faceless Men killed King Maegor and made it look like a suicide, similar to Balon Greyjoy for example
Did the expanded information on house Targaryen expand or change your view of Daenerys in any way? Obviously Aegon the Conquerer is the character she has the most narrative parallels with but did any others stand out?
I also find it sad that there are these rich history books about her family in Westeros filled with things that she never got to learn about or only learned minimal details on.
It did change my view! Mostly just on the series as a whole, to really understand how and why the Targaryen reign started, and why Viserys would feel it was his RIGHT to gain the throne back. It also changes my perspective on Danys future arc...seeing how dragons were used, it makes me feel that she may turn more villianous than she intends.
I can totally relate to caring about the dragons more here than in the main series. I was legitimately sad during the storming of the Dragonpit and when Sunfyre died.
Agree with what you said about Martin being able to pack a lot into few words. In this sense his writing is “dense”. This likely comes from his background as a short story writer. The prologues especially of AGOT ASOS and ADWD would be right at home in an old school horror magazine.
George had actually written most of this stuff before: The conquering, Maegor vs Aenys and the dance with dragons.
The only new writing here is the Jahaerys era which is my personal favourite and also the favourite of most people out there.
I think it speaks volumes that the most gripping stuff here is peace time, and George is definitely making a statement here by making peace time the most entertaining part of the whole thing.
The World of Ice and Fire is so good, Bookborn! You learn so much about Westeros, its history, cultures, houses, and more. I hope you'll read it and make a video. I'm sure you'd love it since you enjoyed Fire and Blood. 🔥
World of Ice and Fire is full of really nice art, descriptions of the different peoples of Planetos, and entries about different animals, monsters, lineages, and brief descriptions of mythic/historical events from Westeros and from around the world. Where Fire and Blood is written to mimic the style of a History Book written for a popular audience-- World of Ice and Fire is more like an illustrated encyclopedia.
I'm so glad you liked it so much! I feel like I loved it way more than a normal person should... but since you're a totally normal person, I feel like maybe I am too!
I know you don't want to watch the shows but especially with HOTD now it'd be a cool video to get your take on the casting for characters in the shows compared to your head cannon.
I was reading Fire and Blood at the same time I was reading The World of Ice and Fire so I forgot where the first stopped. George RR Martin wrote TWoIaF and at times you see the exact same sentences in both books, but it's way more like an encyclopedia. It's still nice if you really wanna know the key events of what happened between Fire and Blood and the SoIaF series and it has beautiful illustrations and helpful family trees.
About Blood and Cheese, it got recently adapted into live action and George never seemed as bothered with GoT as he did with that scene.. they pretty much ignored one of the boys' existence and took away the weight of the queen's choice that's present in the book
I was eagerly waiting for your review of F&B. So eager that i was kind of underwhelmed that you could only touch certain plot points briefly. 😅
Septon Barth's account of Aerea Targaryan can be a whole video in itself. What a masterclass from GRRM. The mystery of Valyria doesnt interest me so much as the writing of that whole account. The first time i listened to it (amazing narration by Simon Vance) i got goosebumps. I revisit that section periodically to take notes on GRRM's writing. Easily the highlight of the book.
Edit: GRRM clearly got inspired by HP Lovecraft while writing about Aerea.
What’s going on in Valyria? Some Lovecraftian mountains of madness shit none of us ever want to know about or it will break our minds.
roger lol its so fun hearing you say the names ( its rogar so more like row- gar like in alligator gar)
You forgot the whole murder mystery of Dragonstone. When Rhaena pulls off the killer's mask and it turns out to be Androw Farman. Meddling Targs, seriously😂
One thing I would love to hear your opinion on: who do you think the father of Rhaenyra's children was?
The seed is strong (aka I feel it was very obvious that they were not her husbands ☠️)
The most craziest thing about what happened to Aerea and Balerion, is that.....they survived a YEAR in Valyria probably. Like there is food and water and they managed to be okay all that time. So what exactly happened that saw both of them flee bach home?
So, fire and blood was originally a short story within an Anthology series named Dangerous Women, amazing boom worth the buy btw, and I was hyped when the full book came out
World of Ice and Fire next?
On a recent blog post George said he was writing chapters for part 2 it’s possible we will get part 2 sooner than expected. Certainly sooner than spring 😅
5:07 absolutely agree. I've only read The Rogue Prince and in like two sentences he told you all you needed to know about Daemon. It's so perfect.
The World of Ice and Fire is a lot like Fire and Blood, but with incredible art. There is some overlapping material with the Targaryens, but a ton of new stuff with other houses and the rest of the world.
I prefer TWOIAF, so much creativity and Epicness (also Basilisks are GOATed)
Yeah I like TWOIAF better personnaly for the variety. I'm not that much of a fan of the Targs (except Blackfyre rebellions era but that's not in F&B)