Naniwa Chosera 1000 vs Shapton Kuromaku 1000, the result will surprise you.
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- Have you ever wondered this:" what is the meaning of the number 1000 on a stone?", "are all the stones with the same number printed on the sufrace perform the same?".
Well, I did a sharpening comparison between two of the most highly regarded stones out there, the Naniwa Chosera 1000 and the Shapton Kuromaku (Professional) 1000, and also threw the Suehiro Cerax 1010, King Deluxe 1000 and even the Chosera 400 into the mix.
I am sure the result will surprise you!
Sharpening stone chart link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpen...
US site:
www.knivesandstones.com
AU site:
www.knivesandstones.com.au
[0:00] Introduction: the stone number meaning
[1:48] 1000 grit stone test method
[3:43] Surface finish results
[4:22] 6x magnification, surface and edge
[5:08] 10x magnification, surface and edge
[5:33] 40x edge analysis
[6:16] Results analysis
[8:25] The Sound test
[10:14] My take on the grit numbers
[12:15] Final thoughts - Навчання та стиль
Thank you for taking the time to educate us.
I just got my shapton 300, and 1000, stones out today to do a few kitchen knives and thought "wow that 1000 seems rough" then I came across your video. With all that said, I still really like my shapton stone set and if need be I could always go to the 3000 if I wanted a finer edge. Thanks for posting your findings to the knife community.
Thanks a lot for spending your time to make this great video. It has been very helpful to me!
I really like the way you have presented the results of your test.
Thanks for the picture comparison.
The best video,thanks for the picture comparison.
Very good informative video. Different video presenters on the Internet have varying and often erroneous opinions and biases about their stones, but seeing the results under the microscope eliminates all doubt. Your video helped guide me to make an intelligent, informed decision. Thanks very much.
amazing video. love these details. hands down subscribed!
Awesome content right here. Great job guys !
I have been getting more and more into waterstones over the last couple years. Your conclusions relative to the grit numbers are exactly what I'm finding also between different stone manufacturers. I now have about 25 different stones from 5 or 6 different manufacturers (yep, went down the rabbit hole there), and some of the differences are quite large. I'm beginning to understand the meaning of "feel", "feedback", and other factors involving the different stones. In the beginning, they all seemed the same to me, but I've evolved. :-) Mostly what I've found is that I still have a LOT to learn, but it's a fun journey.
so if i was to get 3 stones which 3 would i get? arata 400/800/3k or 3k is probably more of an enthusiasm thing and wont really affect daily cooking. so maybe go for 2k or stick to just a 400 and 800 or 400 and 1000?
The clearest explanation of grit vs. brand. Would love to see similar vids on other grits...2k, 3k, 5k...thanks
Priceless that you have taken the time, amazing as the results unfolded, couldn’t agree more with you on company’s are different with there products, thank you for bringing it to everyone’s attention, this the reason why I love to collect stones and sharpening utensils
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Wonderful video and comparison. Thank you😊
Very well done video and sound tests
James, Thanks a very scientific approach. Great tutorial and test results.
This is great! I like the actual scientific data rather than UA-camrs keep saying "oh this feels great! Hmm I think it's even better than the other one, even sounds nicer". That doesn't tell me anything. Numbers and pictures with microscope is much better in terms of show the difference. You should collect more data from different grits and brand and make your own chart like the one on wiki. If someone ( yep...someone) happens to buy different brands, they can have a better idea on how they can slowly convert to one brand, like brand A, X grit is actually more equivalent to brand B, Y grit rather than same (x) grit.
This is the 1st time watching your channel. I really enjoyed your presentation and appreciate your hard work bringing a top quality video to us.
Best video to really understand...and see!
Thank you! I noticed a difference is the feedback, sound and finish on my stones and even thought one Shapton was mislabeled. It also might explain why some are more expensive than others.
Great video. The difference between stones and the microscope review was the best. Thanks
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Quality content on sharpening stones.
I have the Cerax 320, 800, and 2000 grits. They sharpened both my stainless steel and spring steel knives well.
I also have the 6000 grits that I have not used yet.
But, I will keep in mind for Ninwa stones in my next upgrades.
Thanks!
Thank you so much for this, great video, so informative, I have been wondering about this very thing!
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Appreciate your recommendation, got my first stone, a Shapton 2K along with a strop. Just realised that your shop is near my work. Will definitely visit one day and get myself a japanese knive. I have a feeling that i will go down this rabbit hole hard LOL. Keep up the good work.
excellent content! hardly anyone talks about this.
Thanks for sharing, this was very in depth and insightful.
I think this is why I prefer using the Shapton Kuromaku 1500 as the medium grit stone.
Great to hear! For many the experience is pointing to the correct direction, but the PRINT on the stone was confusing.
It's one of the best, informative and interesting videos I've ever seen!
You're doing really great job!
My respect and thanks.
Looking forward to your next
Best wishes
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Thanks a lot! Very useful information. Looks like I will never buy stones for my Zwilling Pro set. First, I wanted to buy Sharp Pebble... 😂
appreciate ya man! love the detail
Very insightful with the apples and oranges analogy. Thank you
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Very interesting results. It explains alot and makes you take caution if sharpening with stones from different ranges in series. Thanks for sharing.
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
This is a wonderful video and great explaining
I reference your video all the time on knife forums and social media cites, thank you for your work, I'm always looking forward to another technical video from you.
P.S: I really like how in the thumbnail the color theme used is a sour green apple, to match the Naniwa Pro 1k. instead of just using a regular apple. Kudos.
Thanks Burno, I actually went to buy an green apple just for the shot, glad that you liked the details. :)
Excellent video comparing the various stones and explanation of grit and how to match them up. Cheers from Nova Scotia. MikeR.
This is the most scientific sharpening/grit vídeo what I have seen on UA-cam until today.
Now I can't stop thinking how will do the Shapton 2000 against 1000 grit naniwas & Cerax....
Great video. very informative!
Fantastic video. Thanks much.
Thanks for sharing
Excellent video, thankyou.
Great video, lots of good information.
Thank you for sharing! I would love to see more on polishing stones, and even leather stropping. What grit do you typically sharpen/polish too for performance?
Great video, don't think anyone's done this before! And the new camera quality is awesome. Loving all the knives you've rehandled for me.
thanks Jovi!
@@KnivesandStones agreed, great video, thank you! If you have the time perhaps you can answer a quick question, I'm looking at the Shapton pro 1k, in your opinion would it pair well with the Naniwa Aotoshi "green brick of joy"?
The Chosera 1K is by far the smoothest of them all, I have always used the Chosera 1K and I sharpen straight razors.
they are wonderful stones. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
A great comparison, thanks for sharing with us!
Thanks Andrew, look forward for things to ease soon and we can catch up again at the knives shows!
Excellent video.
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
This was really great video
Great information ❤
Very good. Love seeing the edges at high magnification. I struggle with burr removal and not I’m wondering if it’s my Shapton stones. This is the second video I’ve seen where the naniwa seems to leave behind a better edge
Like your test👍
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
That was a really well thought out and informative video. The shots from the microscope at different times were extremely useful. I liked that this wasn't a long video and got to the point quickly without over-complicating the sharpening portion. The sound test was actually quite interesting as well. Good job! Oh yeah, what is the kiridashi you're using to test with (if you answer questions from a 2 year old video)?
greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
It is an old kiridashi by Nigara hamono, thanks for watching!
Essentially this means, you either go Naniwa 400 ->Naniwa 1.000 - >any 3K/5K & Strop or you go 400 -> 2000 Shapton and then a 5K Strop. On the other side, the 1K Shapton in Combination with a 3K/5K of any other brand would make a perfect 2 Stone Setup, cause it is still "coarse" enough to take away material in an aceptable amount of time. You would even be able to just live with the Shapton 1.000k
great presentation with a facts
agreed and well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Great video, it's been known for years that the shapton is waaaay muc coarser than any of the known brands actually, but this video points it out.
exactly! sometimes for information like this i cant just claim it, so finally sit down and did some 'science' 😁
There's a chart showing all the different makers an their micron rating. 1K Shapton is about 14 micron while Naniwa 1k is 10 micron(naniwa follows the Jis standard pretty close while shapton has their own rating).
There's lots of different standards and a 1k diamond is coarser than a 1k shapton which is coarser than a 1 k naniwa which is coarser than a 1k edge pro or venev stone.
That's why I prefer to go of micron rating, 10 micron is 10 micron(sure diamond vs AlOx feels different) and you know about what the finish will be. While a 1000 grit diamond mesh will have coarser finish than 1000 grit diamond waterstone.
Fantastic video, and it confirms my own experiences and those of others l talk to, especially concerning the Shapton. I find the Shapton pro line fascinating because they engineered each stone in the series to work well in a progression from the last. The 1000 grit does a fine job of erasing scratches from the 320, but you will really need to go from there to the 1500 or 2000 before getting into serious polishing. I think their 1500 functions more like a typical 1000 grit than their 1000.
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Good to know about not mixing brands, thanks. My problem is the Japanese knife company I purchased 1k & a 3k/8k combo soaking stones from will not divulge who makes their stones for them, so I guess they're worthless now. I ordered a Naniwa S2 Super Stone (220 Grit), & a Naniwa Professional Stone (New Chosera) (800 Grit) yesterday & was hoping to go from the Chosera 800 to the unknown but Japanese brand 1k, then to the combo...
excellent presentation! the Shapton 1k is almost identical to the Chosera 600 grit. I like to use both Shapton and Chosera stones when I'm sharpening.
very informative. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Totally agree with this vid. But my stone choice also depends much on the steel hardness. If the knife is hardened to a 63+ I prefer to set my bevel with the shapton. Under 62 I like the chosera
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Que buen documento !!
Ahora se puede entender un poco mejor la diferencia de piedras.
Veo que depende del material utilizado y la compresión al fabricar.
Muchas gracias por compartir la información.
👍🍻
Amazing video! Thank you! I'm a bit curious if you put the stone directly under microscope, what it would look like?
Well, if I was doing this test, I would use 4 different marking knives, all the same brand. I would start them on the 400 grit stone, then go to the 1000 grit stones. I would count strokes till the 400 grit scratches were gone. Final test would be to get one of those sharpness testers where you cut through a fiber and it measures the grams of pressure needed to sever the thread. I would also be curious to see how the diamond lapping plates compare. DMT and Atoma. Maybe even the 300/1000 grit stone from Rob Cosman, not the Trend stone because they sold and the replacements were concave rather than dead flat.
Im so glad my stones are from the chosera line
Hi, thank you for the video … great scientific approach … could you please provide details on your trying plate? Thank you
About new stones ; it seems that they often have a ‘skin’ on the outside that performs differently/inferior to the rest of the stone. The 1,000 is a lower intermediate stone for me so I’m using a 1,200 grit stone from a company (not King, but similar) for 25 years now. It’s certainly a lot smaller than it used to be lol. I bought a Bester ceramic 700 grit stone a couple of years ago for taking material off quickly. I don’t really find a need for something coarser. I can always use wet/dry paper on my granite surface plate.
ty
Fascinating, 😎👍👍
Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000, Rika 5000, Kitayama 8000, Buffalo or Kangaroo Tail strop w/ 1 micron diamond paste.
sounds good, well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Skip the cho 3k or rika 5k. Cho produces an edge almost close to 4k. Rika produces an edge slighty above 4k. Both are great stones, just need to decide depending on budget or soaking vs s&g.
Overall a very well done video, and your evidence is very excellent. I now understand when a guy saids this stone cuts a little faster for the same grit mark classification!
The type of stone, who makes it, the actual grit size, how it's manufactured! cost and how frieable it is and what steel is being sharpened? Are there any more variables that need to be understood! It's finally making some sense as I watch the videos, I'm starting to understand all the variables to get an outcome! All I wanted to do was sharpen a chisle!
Good job, but you made a statement that the grit had to do with the amount of grit in the stone vs the type or size. I'm not sure that fully correct statement. Over all very good video and I fully understand your closing statement which is fully true I also have found and great conclusion, and data link!
Thanks for making this video James and the use of the microscopes. The images really answered the questions I had about the edges one gets from sharpening stones. But where would you place the Suehiro Cerax? Is it more like the Naniwa (as opposed to the Shapton that’s likely lower that #1000)?
The Suehiro is probably comparable to the Chosera 800.
Amazing format, will check the channel if you did similar for higher grit stones. Subscribed!
I like this guy. Nice video buddy.
I want to see a 320 grit comparison, It's my favorite grit.
Microscope's fotographs :-D --> Subscribed !
Thanks for the great comparison video. Have you tried Shapton 1500? I have heard that is a very nice stone closer to a true 1000 stone.
greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
I watch your video and subscribed. :)
Hi, I've had a Kai shun pro damascus chef's knife for 15 years. A few years ago, when I first tried to sharpen it, I made the angle too small and I slightly damaged (scratched) the blade. I got a lot of help from your sharpening videos and now I feel comfortable with it (Shapton Pro). However, I'd really like to remove these scratches. I've just tried to remove the scratches by polishing with wool fibre, a very fine polishing pad and a small dremel on some knives of lesser quality and not damask, it worked really well, they're better than new. I'm ready to try it on my Kai but I'm a bit worried about removing the damask. Is there a risk? If so, could I "re-reveal an iron perchloride for example?" Or would you have another idea? In any case, thank you for your videos which have helped me enormously!
I'm planning to buy a Kato Santoku SG2 from you, as soon as I feel really ready to maintain a knife of this quality.
Thank you in advance for your help. All the best.
What your opinion on 10k grit natural jade stone compare to normal 10k wheatstonem
Thank you!
As always…….the weakest link is the Operator/Driver/Pilot…..etc😎
You are a real source of true information, I am a cabinet maker by trade and wanting to take care of my hand tools. Chisels are already at an 8000 my block planes are very similar, I was going towards shapton until i saw your videos. I am now convinced to try out the naniwa chosera .i was thinking 400 ,1000 ,5000 then finish with either 8000 or 12000 .What are your thoughts? Thankyou sincerely Mario Aiello
I think the 1000 to 5000 gap is too big. Stick with 2x or 3x progression, so switching from 5000 to 3000 is much better. Maybe 1000, 3000, 8000
nice video & thanks for sharing
is there a bottle of dalmore in the background?
a chivas mizunara, hibiki 21 and a taketsuru 21
Going over this video again, one would have to say that based on the micrographs alone, the Shapton 1000 and the Naniwa 400 are pretty much on par.
When it comes time to replace my Shaptons, I would definitely go for the Naniwa collection.
thats exactly my feeling as well :)
Neat comparisons! You didn’t mention it in the sound test, but it seems that the lower grit (bigger particle size) results in a lower pitched sharpening sound. I can’t think why that would be the case - perhaps it’s a fluke - but was an interesting phenomenon.
i think it also has to do with the mic not close enough to pick up some of the rougher scratches on the lower grit stones, i could certainly feel it.
Lower grit means less bumps resulting in a lower frequency.
Watching this a second time, I was hoping for micro photos of the stones themselves. As for the sound test, I don't have my hearing aids in.... Maybe some sound meter?
Can you tell if there's is a real difference between Naniwa Chosera and Naniwa Professional? What would you buy between those?
There's also different grit standards fepa jis and the american one I forgot
Good day. I would like to know. Are Naniwa Super stone and Suehiro's NEW CERAX whetstones suitable for sharpening wood chisels made of High quality hardened steel. And what grit would you recommend to buy,
Great vidéo
I ve got the shapton ans the king, i prefer the shapton, faster
Congratulations from France !!!!
There's a chart showing the micron size of all different stones. Shapton 1k is about 14 micron while chosera 1k is closer to 10 microns. Same for Suehiro. Chosera follows the Jis grade exactly while Shapton lags behind a bit.
Go to gritomatic website and under info you'll see the chart.
So that means the Shapton 2000 it would be more like a 1000grit on cerax & chosera than the 1000 grit Shapton???
@@hr.4576 I think the Shapton 1500 would be more like that. The 2k is a bit finer, forget the exact micron rating.
Look at the chart I mentioned if you want to know for sure, it has pretty much every grit/maker/type of stone and what micron size they are.
I know with razors, if we use the shapton pro we tend to go for the 1500 over the 1k and on the glass the 2k glass over the 1k for a 1k level stone because their grit ratings are a bit off.
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Do you have video on K&S Shinko 1000/5000? I really want to see the results because I would like to buy one. Currently using 1000 grit cerax.
Which one closer to Shinko 1000 grit? Suehiro, shapton, naniwa super stone, or others?
greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Thank you so much for making this video 🙇🏻, if you can only choose between the chosera and cerax to sharpen single bevel or double bevel knife the rest of your life which one will you choose??
Please help, I'm trying to make a decision base on your answer, I would really appreciate it 😊😊
if it is only about 1000 grit, the Cerax is softer and slower but does create a slightly better contrast to my eye, however since we need to move to a higher grit stone, I'd choose the Chosera.
If the chosera 400 and shapton 1000 seem so close together in their actual performance, is there a reason to use both? It seems like the shapton 1k could follow up the chosera 400 in place of the chosera 800, based on the chart.
the only real reason to buy both is to actually taste their difference. They are both great stones, but sharpening is a journey that you have to expreience the different to tell.
Thanks for making this video... very interesting, I have 3 of those 4 stones ( missing the babies) and though I've never done a side by side comparison the way you did....I had exactly the same impressions you did...the microscope photos definitely confirmed it.
Only place I have a different opinion is after a shapton 1k I find you can definitely skip up to 3k+...you just have to spend a bit longer on that stone.
I can understand where you're coming from though. I imagine at the store you want to have constantly repeatable results when sharpening and sticking to a specific stone brand progression definitely helps streamline the process.
I personally, and it could be a bit of a downfall for me I know, jump around throughout my stone collection. I try out different combinations almost every time I sharpen. The end results are always very good and often very different in terms of end results. Personally, I find that interesting, and I sometimes do that as well for some of the knives I sharpen for others...(most others, who I know won't notice or appreciate it,I keep it to a more or less same 3 stone progression)...but for those 2 or 3 whom I know will get into the minutiae of it...it can be a lot of fun
Take care
Dear me...I just re read my comment...it should read Naniwa and not babies... LoL... figure if leave it uncorrected as it just funnier...
At K&S, we often do 1K to 8K jump, so I do agree that you can jump from Shapton 1K to a 3K stone. As long as the higher grit stone is fast enough, you can do the jump and leaving a toothy but refined finish.
Would you buy a Naniwa Chosera 400 if you had a Shapton Kuromaku 1000?
I have the Shapton and I would like to buy a coarser stone. It is suppose that Naniwa Chosera is a good option.
Absolutely loved the video..... Hated the elevator music
New to the game, just got some yaxell Ran knives as a sharpening practice set, low maintenance and easy vg10...
now I really don’t know what stones to get, since I’m in Melbourne and damn there’s hardly any Choices in stores.... and omg the more than one month wait on some products from Amazon is just....not fair
guess i might have to jump to Sydney for help... the struggle is real!
if you happen to be in Sydney, you are more than welcome to comeover to have a chat, we offer free sharpening tutorial (bookings essential though)
@@KnivesandStones that would be amazing, really wanted to see some of the knives in real life not just online too！
The problem in the industry is that 1000 should be the identifier to the actual grit size. Weather is cut fast or slow could also be noted. The system needs to be uniform in description so one know exactly what your buying and why.
They do thi for carbide cutters and for grinding wheels in fine detail through a descriptive code or Vin number.
I think this is an unfair to the consumer entering the market.
You video and the charted data (good job by the authors) helps but does not solve the underlying issue for this segment of the market or consumers needs. It's a great reference to judge all the other video out there and at least as you diget the data and your video you'll see through the hype of sharping stones!
This video over with my doubt between shapton ou naniwa (1000). Now I'am naniwa team :)
that that it helped :)
Is it really good to flatten the stone ?
I mean, the diamond stone will do on your whetstone the same the whetstone do on your blade, depending on the diamond stone grit.
What is the result of sharpening with a flat but scratched stone ?
stones, even diamond stones will wear and flatten is required for optimal honing. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Grit ratings are arbitrary and go from line to line. You can not carry over the rating from one line to another line of stones. Even going by size of abrasive inside the stone, this is not the whole story because how those abrasives are bound will determine how they scratch the material. The 1k from the Shapton is equivalent to the 800 for the chosera. This is well known. And if you look at the lines, the Shapton has 320 then 1000, the 320 is the last course stone and the 1k is the first sharpening stone. For chosera it goes from 400, 600 are the course stone, then the 800 is the first sharpening stone. Same same. The chosera has more. It has 800 and 1k, for sharening. It has 2k and 3k also. The Shapton has 1k, 1.5k and 2k only. Then it goes to the 5k, which is not sharpening stone. If you look in another line, like Cerax, the 6k cerax is course like the 1k chosera. The 400 chosera is like the 1k cerax almost.
well said. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
Having just watched your video and just wanted to point out that while imaging the knife edges after using different wet stones, I just want to say that would an analysis of the surfaces of the wet stones themselves be more useful. This can be done quite easily using an Atomic Force Microscope or Scanning Probe Microscope. Using these tools you can easily map size of grinding particles, their distribution, as well as hardness of the grinding particles and the matrix they are embedded in. If you contact some Physics or Science departments at a couple of universities, they should be able to help you out.
You would be looking at $2000 for an 8 hour day for most scanning electron microscopes (SEM) or electron microprobe (EMP). Kind of costly
@@carlinlentz6849 While you are correct about the cost of running an SEM or EMP, those are not the family of machines that I am talking about. SEM using secondary electron detector is great for imaging surfaces, but does require a plasma metal sputter coatings to be applied as the specimen is non conducting. Also an EMP is not really suitable as you are not trying to analyze composition distribution, also EMP relies on surfaces being highly polished.
AFM & SPM rely on a styles running across the surface and then measuring the deflection of its cantilever using a laser. They don't need the vacuum systems, or level of specimen preparations, that SEM & EMP require. They just require the specimen to be small and light weight, about 1cm x 1cm in size should be fine as the weight would not strain the piezoelectric mount for the specimen. For these reasons the costs of running one are usually a lot less.
And yes, for those to do recognize the name, I did work in microscopy at Sydney University for about 15 years
So is it better to stay in the same brand / series to get a nice progression?
no, I believe its not required. that said stones from same brand behave the same so less learning. greetings from south africa 🖖🏻 regards dapper shaves
The Shapton glass is fast and good for meat cutting edge