GOOD and BAD of High SEER Inverter HVAC!
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- Опубліковано 19 бер 2021
- High SEER systems are debated behind the scenes by HVAC techs everyday. Are they really worth it?
Does it make since to invest in a HVAC system with inverter technology? They are typically quite a bit more expensive to install than a regular single-stage or two-stage AC/Heat Pump system. So will you get your money out of it?
Are the parts more expensive? Can they heat and cool my home as well?
All that and more explained in this video!
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Great Video! You have helped me a lot with my higher SEER question.
Thanks!
The biggest issue we’ve seen is power surges taking out control boards. Fortunately that’s an easy fix. We now install surge protectors on all split systems. We install Fujitsu and Mitsubishi. Glad I found this channel. Been in the business for 20 years in upstate NY.
Thanks pal!
Which surge protection devices do you prefer?
@@AJ-bi6ns We’ve had good luck with the Intermatic AG series.
@@andytrudell4889 Thank you
Andy mentioned Intermatic surge suppressors. I'm no expert on this, but a quick search turned up the Intermatic AG3000, which is designed for HVAC surge protection and sells for under $80 at some online stores. Sounds like a good investment.
You sound very professional thanks for all your advice.
I appreciate that!
Thanks! About to put a 3 Ton Bosch inverter package unit to replace a failing '94 Trane package in PHX. Feeling good about the decision and appreciate your reinforcement.
Awesome pal!
Can't fix stupid
Got a new Bosch 29 SEER system. It's amazing. Super quiet (inverter) and efficient.
Been in the business for 27 yrs and I 100% agree especially with Daiken I'm vrv certified and you are correct
Thanks pal!
You need more subscribers you're a good Channel man
I agree with you for the most part. As far as return on investment I think replacement on failed parts should also play a factor. 20 dollar capacitor will get a condenser back up and going as opposed to a $400 board. Variable speed motor as opposed to constant torque. Pretty substantial difference in the repair world.
It's a valid point pal
Yes that should be more talked about. I also think that motor rebuilding is starting to make sense with these ECM motors too.
I am running a 21 SEER fully variable inverter system in the minisplit with full air-handler system. It's hands down a lot better, the air always feels awesome no matter what, also cleaner because a lot more gets filtered. Watchout for bare metal in the system, your duct work will sweat from the prolonged lengths of time cooling if not insulated completely. I actually spent less that an standard system on my complete install, including tools and gasses, but I did my own exactly correctly.
Good videos. I wish more folks would focus on getting their ductwork correct.
Thanks pal. And I agree
Trying to cool that 4000 plus square foot house on that one central return lol. And its on the floor 😖
Should my contractor replace my old ductwork with a new Heatpump install mine is currently 15 years old
I've gone from a single stage to an inverter system twice. I'll pretty much never get a single stage system for my primary residence.
Agreed....the installers are the ones who will yield a good running HAVC system, regardless of make or model !! There are just too many licensed hacks in the industry.
Just wish my guys would check/set gas pressure on all our installs.. sometimes it gets missed… along with the on/off switch on the gas valve and remembering to open gas ball valve once gas connections were complete. First time customer turns heater on of course nothing happens and locks out no gas.. half my call backs could have been from strictly just making my guys run a heat cycle on new install NO matter the weather conditions at the time HOT OR COLD!
I do HVAC controls and you'd be amazed how little your average maintenance guy knows about HVAC. I'm an inverter heat pump fan. I've seen the performance in cold weather between them and regular heat pumps. There's no comparison and getting 120 degree supply temps that actually feel warm. Problem is contractors want to charge double to install them. For my next system I'm going to do it myself after I get my EPA 608.
Lack of knowledge is a challenge. The ambition to learn may be the larger issue
I wonder if and how manual J/S need to be updated to reflect continuously variable capacity systems?
Does it make sense to install an (outdoor) inverter heat pump with a (indoor) single-stage gas furnace? Thanks!
Have CO2 heat pumps had reliability issues? How long have these newer high pressure CO2 heat pump units been working successfully? Does Daikin make a CO2 Heat pump? If so, how long have they been available?
Josh-what manufacturers are giving lifetime compressor warranties ??
I have a 5 ton, 12 SEER unit in Houston that costs $850 per year for electricity for cooling. Going to 16 SEER would save me $212 per year. I have a 3 yo quote of $10,000 for a 16 SEER Lennox system. I am fine with what I have.
In California we have a $0.29 pkwh peak rates all year long which is from 4:00 p.m. till 9:00 p.m. . That is the main time you're actually going to use your air conditioner so a high seer unit pays for itself so quick here with 106° days common in summer. We kept being told it's not worth upgrading to a high-sure unit because the cost of the unit is so high and parts are expensive but we saved easily over $1,000 a year with our 19.5 seer unit and our air conditioner has a 10-year Parts warranty so I just don't get the reason these AC installers try to sell you the "middle road" units sometimes.
I’m with you 💯
I don’t think those installers want to understand
Love that hat! You should have a give awy sometime?
Can an inverter system be installed in an attic that's unconditioned down in Roanoke VA?
I am seeing some quotes for central inverter systems that can use regular 24V thermostats: Gree and Carrier 38MARBQ.
I'm struggling to understand how this would work and whether I'd lose the advantage of continuous low-capacity operation versus start/stop operation. I'm happy to get a proprietary thermostat if it does a better job controlling the output of my system and gets more life out of it.
It's really all about technology. A communicating thermostat can talk with the system and tell it certain things like the ambient temperature of the room and so on. Even if the thermostat is 24 V controlling, the system still has the capability of ramping up and down based on load. However, the ability for the thermostat to talk to the system is gone. The thermostat is essentially a bunch of switches at that point. This is no different than a remote control ductless system though.
I hope the HVAC inverters last longer than the ones Viking and GE Monogram used in their expensive refrigerators. Most of those inverters lasted less than two years. Inverter parts were $200 plus labor to replace them. Maytag went bankrupt putting inverters and variable speed DC motors in their washers that were bad. (Whirlpool bought them out.) I did appliance repairs for 12 years and I replaced over 50 inverters, so I'm a little suspect of doing variable speed DC motors that require AC to DC inverters. Then again, Tesla's cars and chargers all have well designed inverters that seem to work forever. So good inverter design is possible.
Great videos! I just installed Tranexv20i, what is the best fan mode auto or always running?
Most times, the answer is auto. Running all the time can actually evaporate humidity back into the home. That said, if you have any IAQ (indoor air quality) accessories, it may make since to at least circulate the air if not leaving it on.
@@NewHVACGuide if fan is set to on it will always pull humidity into the house through every leak in the house, i.e windows, doors and every penatration from walls and ceiling to attic. almost all houses have negative pressure unless it has fresh air intake which would still pull humid air in from outside. ( down here in florida anyways) just my 2 cents. great vids btw. you sound like a trustworthy contractor
We have installed a bunch of them but we dont see the power bill but when we do the cost analysis people usually break even around year 10... dont know if its worth it just based on cost.
What's the difference between an inverter system and a variable speed system? Or are they the same?
Has humidity been an issue with inverter HVAC systems? Anyone notice the shortest bursts not fully dehumidifying a home? Still in the fence between a Gree inverter heat pump system or a 15 SEER Carrier traditional. Any input would be great! Thanks for the great videos, learned a TON!
Dehumidification is better with inverters. Don’t buy Gree, and don’t buy Carrier. My advice would be to find a reputable local Amana dealer, now until the end of June you can get a new system with an Amana S series outdoor inverter at a promotional price, along with a free communicating Wi-Fi thermostat. Amana offers the best warranty in the business with lifetime unit replacement warranties on compressors and heat exchangers, be sure to register your new equipment after install!
Man, o man. I live in Central Florida and am currently on my 5th installer coming to give me a quote on replacing my 18 year old Carrier system. Every one of them have told me at lease one of the reasons you mentioned in this video as to why I don't want a variable speed system. Every one of them was an "old timer" as you say... They strait out REFUSE to install them. So frustrating. great video, wish you were in my area.
Wow. I’m surprised you couldn’t find at least one contractor to install higher seer equipment
@@NewHVACGuide One person quoted me a high seer system but wanted over 40 grand for installation. I was very clear about what I wanted at the time I set up the appointments but they come anyway, knowing they won't install what I want. So far it's been a big waste of time. Luckey my old system is working ok so we aren't in a big hurry.
Sir I work in Central Florida too. And the reason why inverter system are not desirable in Florida is because of all the lightning strikes we have here.
As I am sure you know we are the lightning strike capital of the world down here. And these inverter system simply are not voltage tolerant. Any kind of power surge or brown out and it's adios inverter and no cooling.
@@seanmathews1826 I wound up finding a Carrier dealer that installed the system I wanted at a reasonable price. It came with lightning surge protection. Also, in the event that my system is taken out by lightning, my home owners insurance will cover it. Considering that lightning has the potential to be several hundred million volts and tens of thousands of amps, a good strike is going to take electronics out regardless of whether its just an AC motor or an AC/DC inverter, VSC and DC motor.
I had a new variable speed pool pump installed at the same time as the heat pump and air handler. Between these two improvements, I have seen a reduction of nearly 750 kWh per month, for the months of July and August. This translates to a near 80 dollar per month decrease on my electric bill. In my opinion, it is worth the risk.
Refusing to give your customer what they want because you feel that it isn't worth the risk is a poor business practice.
@@TheSloppyDingo Hey do what you want . God granted us all free will .
I assume you bought a Carrier Infinity? I hope it was registered with the manufacturer for parts warranty. You're gonna need it.😄
You need to understand that I work with the Carrier Infinity system everyday. I have see the issues and problems with that system everyday for the last 15 years.
Myself personally I won't sell that system anymore because I have morals and ethics. I can't sell that system to people knowing the problems that it has.
Unfortunately there not all the people I work with are like that. 😕
They care more about the commission they will get on the sale.
Within the next 10 years don't be surprised if the indoor ECM blower motor fails three or four times. The inverter will likely fail two times and the compressor will need to be replaced at least once.
I think I have replaced 300 to 500 blower motors in that system since 2005.
So those 5 other old timers were trying to help you avoid a lot of misery.
But like Strother Martin said in Cool Hand Luke.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach."
As an HVAC contractor for over 36 years, the bottom line is every home and every lifestyle is different! There has never been a one size fits all system. Every home and location has its own special and unique challenges! The new set of challenges we have now is efficiency vs longevity! The old equipment was designed to last 25 plus years, while the new equipment want last anywhere near that but is more energy efficient! So we now trade longevity for efficiency!
Well said pal!
When it comes to the longevity of something like a heat pump condenser, is it mainly the electronic components which don't last or are there issue with mechanical compontents like blades, lines, coils, not lasting as long? I'm looking to replace my old Rheem oil-burning furnace with a Bosch 5 ton heat pump and electric furnace and the efficiency seems great but wondering about the longevity and what I may end up replacing 10 years from now.
I put the best 5-ton Lennox veritable speed, saved me a lot of money during the summer. I sold my house a year later. My house sold for top dollar in Tucson due to the outstanding energy efficient unit still on warranty
That's awesome! Thinking ahead!
How do you feel about the boards on the inverters getting fried by power fluctuations or surges. The minute it breaks you loose all the "savings". I have heard about putting a whole house surge protector in or using a surge protector for just the equipment to protect the board from getting toasted.
I like that idea alot. I called our Home Insurance company to see if premiums would be lower with a whole house inverter. The Insurance company said "no".
Still would like to invest in one to protect the HVAC system and other appliances.
We actually install a point of use surge protector with all of our inverter installs now.
@@NewHVACGuide do you have one you recommend? I know the old supco ones used to catch on fire and could burn your house down. I heard of some contractors using the ICM controls surge protector as well.
I don’t know that I necessarily recommend a specific one. We usually install the Intermatic AG3000
What happens when you’re out of warranty and the inverter board cost you $2k before labor. Also I don’t like how they return oil after low load. Also most techs don’t carry the inverter boards and transducers/thermistors on the vans. My question is which system is going to save You more money? The one that shuts off after a cycle? Or one that stays low stage most of the day? That’s more wear and tear. You’re also talking twice the price on just the equipment. I’d be pissed of if I bought a system for $17k and a little sensor goes out in July in Florida and tech tells me it’s on order for 2 weeks. The technology is not where it needs to be yet and consumers don’t need to be the Guinea pig.
The theory behind it is great,I had one that was a pain in the ass to deal with. Comm issues, transducer failure, bad thermistor, leaking evaporator coil. I had a carrier green speed. It was definitely the right name because the green was speeding right out of my pocket for repairs.
What I've personally experienced is a lack of cleanliness when brazing and having issues with eevs and ductwork/blower issues. B3!!! Urrrr
have you ever heard of anyone having sound/vibration issues with 18.5 SEER (3 ton) R410A ?
You're a good comfort consultant.
Thank you!
What inverter system would you recommend to replace 4t heat pump?
Personally, I love Daikin. However, I recommend finding a contractor that gives you the warm fuzzies and go with what they recommend and sell in your local market. :-)
Today ! ......... Today I just get a 20 SEER ......... I can 't wait to Install the machine ........ inverter board never goes bad, unless some factory s*it ....... and, it is very easy to fix it .........
if high seer drivers etc. when it does go down there is SQUAT you can do right then 10 pm on-call. the cust is screwed. regular systems for the most part I can wire around stuff and get people air until parts come in.
What about when there's a large repair bill after the warranty expires. Any savings will disappear to pay for the repair
Guess it depends on how large 🙂
This inverted systems are nothing new outside of the USA. I am getting bids for my home and every single contractor wants me to go for a central A/C system and then a gas heater, instead of the cassettes. Why would I want two different systems? Also, they kept saying "you know, is a very new technology and no everyone service it" whats to service?.... i can clean the filter myself.
Keeping the coils clean and drains clear would be the biggest maintenance items, but there is other preventative maintenance that can and should be done.
Picking your brain...removing a 10ton small ahu in a small office bld, running from a trane varirax system...looking at twinning 2, 5 ton or 4 ton inverter system,issue I have is the dampers in each space, damper operate baseboard heat also..any thought how to control this
You’ll want to get a pro in there. We have a church that has a similar setup to that. There’s a zoning module and twinned air handlers.
I had to replace my Bryant 2.5 ton R 22 heat pump in June. I had a tempstar 2.5 ton 410 a heat pump put in it (the house is colder now) Do you know WHY?????
Not without seeing it. Call a pro! :-)
15:30 mini split systems parts are crazy expensive. most boards are $500 on a unit that might cost the contractor $900
Can you tell me which manufacturers are offering lifetime warranties on their A/C units? I am guessing these inverter units have self-diagnostics to point the HVAC tech in the right direction? Can you also tell me how some contractors botch the installation of the units?
So manufactures offer lifetime warranty on the compressors and heat exchangers. I’m not aware of anyone that offers a lifetime warranty on all parts.
I’m actually working on a series going over installation problems causing failures that are not correlating to the brand chosen
@@NewHVACGuide Which manufactures?? How's install problems video coming, maybe done now?
I love your posts , I wish I lived closer to ya , we could use a good Hvac guy.
I install and work on large Servers and deal with power all the time. The first thing I look at on any type of power rectification is the smoothing capacitors. If you see United Chem,Rubycon,Hitachi,Panasonic, Elna,Kemet,Cornell-dubilier,and Nichicon your good to go. If you see JUNG-FU or FU-ME or some other strange name,run like hell.
These Inverter heat pump systems need clean power and the capacitors are used continually in a high heat area , I have seen 50,000 dollar computer destroyed because they went cheap on one part. They had Chinese capacitors in them , that tells me they cut corners everywhere.
I will only put in or replace boards in computers or buy equipment that have Japanese or American made caps in them and then rated properly for the environment there in.
Thanks pal. Me too.
Wow. 50 grand. I’d hate to get that bill.
Are Bosh ids 2.0 inventor heat pump made in China ?
Are guy and we are in the Northeast, said it’s not ran enough to go nuts with AC. Seer and variable speed .. specially if we’re not staying in the house for more than 3 to 5 years
Very possible 🙂
So do you like the train 20Vi inverter heat pump??
We've installed several. They're pricey but very nice
Home owner question here. Is an inverter system a heat pump? Thanks.
They can be heat pumps or straight air conditioning.
My Bryant evolution extreme 24 seer heat pump is the real deal. Besides the savings in electric the control it has on humidity is even better. I will say when it comes to heating its hands down not evennclose to a single stage. It heats 20 times better. Measured 190 on the vapor line. Mine is equivalent to 76 stages.
So these systems can be used as heat and air conditioning? I am building a new home. Single level 3600sqft slab on grade Insulated concrete form home. And i am searching my options on heating and cooling, and also how big my appliance/room where the furnace and all the other utilities like water heater washing machine and dryer need to be to install this system. Please guide me through this a little more. I live in wyoming,
A heat pump is simply an air conditioner that runs backwards in the Winter producing heat.
@@NewHVACGuide so all this needs is an air handler inside? No propane/NatGas is needed?
A heat pump can be paired with an air handler inside or a furnace inside. If it’s paired with a furnace inside, it is commonly referred to as a “dual fuel system“. I’ve done several videos on dual fuel systems
@@NewHVACGuide awesome thank you.
How much does it cost to replace the outdoor PCB in an inverter AC if it fails?
When I bought my mini splits last year, I spent over a month doing research. What I found was that the vast majority of private label systems (as well as almost all of the big name brands that have been around for decades) marketed direct to the public are made by a pair of huge, highly automated Chinese companies, Midea and Gree. Vendors who claim to be designing their own systems are merely choosing from a menu of available components while making various cost / performance tradeoffs. Two models that look identical on the outside could have major differences under the skin. It's best to at least compare the AHRI certificates for each model you're considering. Another excellent resource is the NEEP database.
I also discovered that anyone who is reasonably competent with tools and confident in their ability to read and follow instructions can save about 80% or more of total project costs. By not rushing things it is entirely possible to end up with results that are far more professional and trouble free than those obtained from many outfits who claim to be the professionals. There are some very good (and also some very poor) UA-cam videos regarding DIY installs. Watch many of them and you should soon recognize the difference.
I spent about $350 on tools ( vacuum pump, manifold gauge set, valve core tool, CPS micron gauge and nitrogen gauges), the latter two because I wanted to make absolutely certain that there was virtually no contamination trapped within the system (moisture and non-condensibles) which could lead to shortened equipment life due to internal corrosion. I also wanted to minimize the odds of having a microscopic refrigerant leak that would have to be addressed at some future date. I consider a commercial quality micron gauge, while expensive, to be cheap insurance. I could have saved the cost of the first two tools by obtaining a "free rental" at one of the local auto parts store chains.
I also called the tech support line from each company that made my short list. While most of the techs seemed to be reasonably competent, a few were apparently working off of scripts. I inquired about warranty limitations for us DIYers, company procedures concerning potential shipping damage, parts availability, and even whether the tech I spoke to is happy with his job.
In my case, I purchased a couple of the (Midea sourced) AURA series systems from Senville. Those are the so called "cold climate" models that not only operate with about 25% better efficiently than standard offerings in both heating and cooling modes but still make plenty of heat at my particular design temperature. They seem to accomplish this feat primarily with a better grade compressor and larger heat exchanger. The difference in cost between the CC and standard equipment was offset entirely by the 30% Federal tax credit. Overall I've already achieved a 100% return on investment as compared to my older but well maintained and updated oil furnace in just the first heating season.
I've seen identically spec'ed systems on the HVACDirect site (same features, same performance numbers on the AHRI certificates, same remote) with their one of their own name badges for several hundred dollars more even after their "hurry" discount. I'd venture a guess that at least part of the differential covers their affiliate referral link program.
BTW, in answer to your original question, Senville is the only vendor I've encountered that has a repair parts page on their website complete with prices. The price for the outdoor circuit board which includes the main power supply, all the brains for the various sensors, and the variable frequency power electronics for both the inverter compressor and variable speed fan is less than $200 + shipping. Replacement fan motors are quite reasonably priced also.
As a sales tech I never offer or sell inverter communication tech based on utility savings. That’s a road you don’t want to go down. I simply sell based on comfort. That’s it. You start over promising energy savings and that customer will come to your office with utility bills demanding answers to questions you can’t deliver.
Can you help me to decide on the unit- I am looking for Daikin and the sales person in canada have offered me 2 options - 1) 17 seer model MN: RXB09XV SN: FTXB09AXV for $3500 and another one he proposed the best in class- 19 model - RX09AVX/ indoor unit FTX09AVX - up to 20 seer but the price is over $5000. Can you suggest which one is best when it come to power saving - as i want to reduce gas bill.
which one do u prefer
The Aurora is their best. RXL09QMVJU with FTX09NMVJU
Is variable speed motor ONLY on the indoor handler worth the extra money when the outside unit is still single stage non variable ? Im hearing different opinions on that.
Depends... What's the SEER diffence if upgraded?
and cost difference?
@@NewHVACGuide 1800.00 vs straight single stage inside and outside
@@BlackoutStormChasing woah. Will the outdoor unit stay the same if you upgrade your air handler? We are usually only a few hundred higher if so.
Weatherization use a company use Payne and put in a Payne Seer 14.
Can you making a in depth video explaining exactly how these inverter system communicate with all its components, explain all the sensors and how they interact with the control board and thermostat etc..., Not just the same old speil of how ac get inverted to variable frequency and drive the compressor. Sales pitch
Do you think homeowners would want to watch a video concerning all the sensors?
@@NewHVACGuide So you're all about the sales and not about the info.
yes I do, I think they would like to know why it's costing them thousands to fix a problem due to a faulty sensor or board, instead of a fifty dollar for a contact switch @@NewHVACGuide
I don’t sell them anymore. I try to help folks with my info. I was asking a nice and serious question.
Great explanation josh- so what about TWO stage systems ? Do THEY make sense ? After all don’t have to use a communicating thermostats for these two stage units yet you cna control over wi-fi. Youre cycling on off less (lets say half the time) how does the surge/wear compare from going to say 60% to 100%, very small increments ? And don’t You agree these inverter systems effectively REQUIRE surge suppression to protect those phenomenally expensive boards both inside and outside at not only the house panel level but at the disconnect, so you’ve got to add several hundred dollars for cap cost on an inverter systems .a s for humidity, don’t you agree that you’ve gotta to have a multi-variable speed ECM in the blower to really benefit from enhanced dehumidification > and doesnt EVERY hosue in very humid climate benefit from hosue hosue dehunfdiifwer , which may obviate thsi benefit ? Even the best inverters are not efficient at removing humidity esp in trunk seasons .
The issue with two stage systems is that more contractors will oversize a system by 50-100% by using a rule of thumb. As a result the system basically runs in only one stage. So you end up not seeing much of an energy savings.
Even when I was going through tech school a few years ago, just reading about these systems just screamed “we should be installing these”.
I think the issue is with these old school techs don’t truly understand Air Conditioning. This may sound arrogant but it’s the truth.
It’s coming down to where you just can’t swap a capacitor, jam more refrigerant in it, and they are unwilling to learn.
The only thing that makes an issue on these inverter systems is having the correct technical data for the system. Such as temp sensor resistance values and how the data lines pulse voltage in certain modes(and among other brand specific things). It’s not that hard.
Even if you take the money saving out of the equation, any kind of multistage or inverter system just has an amazingly higher quality of air in the home.
My 18 seer mini split in my sun room (that I installed) always feels amazing if I have it running. Especially compared to my single stage 15 seer American standard unit for the house.
It comes down to that a lot of techs don’t know what they are taking about half the time and are not willing to learn anything.
This doesn’t apply to every old technician obviously, but it’s a damned surprising amount I’ve come across.
That's the unspoken truth on why some won't learn. Early in my career, I worked with an older tech that did the "beer can cool" charging on refrigerant and said he'd never do subcool or superheat. Two weeks later, his helper (me) had to fix an overcharged system.
Great observation
I’ve been in the trade for, well lets say I was in the first EPA class in Chicago to get Refrigerant certified lol.
But have to agree. I replaced my my one 4 ton system with 2 ducted mini’s put the master and guest bedroom on one system main house on the other.
I cringed when I had to replace my shop 3 ton HP with another loud, crap old school technology Goodman split.
I can hear my crap shop system going into defrost a mile away! I’ve yet to hear my mini’s.
But yes I’ve had this conversation with other older guys. Company owners even. You’d think I was talking from another planet to these guys. Zero interest.
Yeah I needed to toss a bunch of money on a scale, and all the other needed stuff. Oh well.
Some change is for the better.
I do feel that a lot of it's because in most of North America, the trades are full of conservative people.
Just installed a complete Daikin 17 SEER inverter system. Replaced a 16 SEER 2-stage Carrier Infinity system. The Carrier was supposed to be super duper and all that, but only lasted 12 years. I can say from experience, there is no way a consumer can get a straight answer about which system to install. All the contractors claim there's is the best, etc.
I believe the install is where the rubber really hits the road. ANY system will last longer and perform better when it is installed well.
Never used Daikin before, so I guess we will see.
All good points pal.
Three contractors in my area advised against inverter units because of power supply issues.
They do not like them because of warranty issues.
Wow. They better get with the program. In the not so distant future, they will be all you can buy.
@@NewHVACGuide I tried to buy a R-454 system as starting in 2023, they will be mandated in some places. Nobody sells them yet that I know of.
We have access to R32 systems now. Just started stocking them a couple months ago.
Does size still matter on these modulating systems?
Yes
@@NewHVACGuide do they make variable half ton sizes ?
@@E150GT most don’t but one I know that does is the Daikin Fit
One thing I noticed in newer HVAC are the main boards that the L1/L2 115V/230V cables connect to. No longer do I see contact switches so the electronic boards are taking the amperage hits with every start cycle. Guess what? Those printed circuits are NOT reliable as the solder and the stripes tend to break/crack due to heat cycles. Then, when they fail, the part is $600 !
While I agree that terminal blocks may not be the best way to connect to the line wiring, I'm not sure I've heard that is the reason for most board failures before. Have you had them break/crack often?
@@NewHVACGuide I have not personally experienced that but my research finds the most common failure to circuit boards and blower motors are the solder and printed circuits to them. So, some of the single stage repairs are rather inexpensive vs a new blower motor assy or main board priced way up there.
@@Garth2011 interesting. I wonder who's installed them in your research. I personally in my entire career have never had one single failure due to solder joints. So I was just curious. Thanks
SEER rating is not linear as it increases, SEER efficiency becomes less as SEER increases per unit of SEER.
Very true. It’s hard to explain it at times. So I make it more simpler for my simple mind ☺️
Not interested in the savings. For our main home, interested in the difference in noise and comfort.
That is becoming more of a concern for folks all the time. That might be partly why inverter systems have become more and more popular.
@@NewHVACGuide Worth noting that an invertor is also a lot easier load if you need to occasionally run on generator power. Living in Houston, we occasionally spend DAYS without power after a hurricane. A single-stage AC unit require a soft start kit to run on genny.
Think your house should def do some spray foam make a conditioned attic and spray foam on exterior walls that’s going to save more money than a new unit hands down. I’ve never paid more than 250 for electricity gas and water in month in my life . I had a house yr round never more than 150 for all 3 and I had a conditioned attic with 2 ton ac on a 1350sq ft house with drop ceiling
Every house is different. Depends on the house size and of course insulation as you mentioned. I had a customer simply install new windows and it dropped their utility bills.
Thank you for passing on your knowledge and insight! I wish I was in your area as I would love to work with a profesional like you! Unfortunately I’m in Sunny & Humid Florida.
Anyways, I have a home in Central Florida built in 2007 running a 5 ton carrier with 13SEER. I’m getting ready to replace this unit before it fails on me, in the middle of summer. The house is well insulated and the ductwork works perfectly with my existing unit. I’m considering installing a Lennox inverter unit. My concern is that as the unit slows down I might not get enough air on the opposite end of the house from where the Air Handler is. The AC space on the house is 2800 ft.²
I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this.
I will be subscribing to your Web site before I proceed with the purchase to make sure I get things done right.
Thank You 🙏
Hello! Thank you for your kind words. If the ductwork is sized properly, you should not have an issue with comfort in your home. If you find that you are having an issue with velocity to the registers far away, try closing some of the vents halfway in the rooms that get cooler the fastest. Otherwise any other fix may be expensive like replacing all the ductwork or installing dampers.
@@NewHVACGuide Thank You 🙏
@@NewHVACGuide Isn't that idea best done with dampers at the air handler plenum vs. with the individual supply registers ? I'm understanding that once the supply air leaves the plenum, there is no advantage in closing supply registers as the plenum still direct those ducts with supply.
@@Garth2011 blocking the air is blocking the air. If you imagine the plumbing in your home, you can turn the water off at the sink or at a shutoff when it first comes into the home. Air works no different
@@NewHVACGuide Check into this science, no it is not the same. Lots of items come into play.
my bosch 2.0 system is great saving me an average of 70 dollars a month
Wow! What did it replace?
@@NewHVACGuide old central ac unit with forced air oil furnace
Good for you pal!
We just went through 5 months of record heat in California, with a new roof top installed Bosch 18.5 SEER (3 ton) that took 5 months of troubleshooting to fix a long running problem. I'm mentioning it in case the info is of any use to installers so that no one else might have to go through what we did. After enlarging the ducts & simplifying thier paths, adding more ceiling vents, putting padding under the AC unit & adding supports under it in the attic to "batten it down", the answer ended up being to change the frequency. Apparently there are 20 frequency choices. Ours was initially set at 47. When they changed it to 69, it has a bit of a rough start up (2-3 minutes long) but then evened out to a very livable sound. The down side is that it no longer is really a variable speed, {& we don't know yet how it will effect the efficiency & hence the cost of heating.{we had saved $50 a month when it was at frequency 47} Aslo, everytime we lose power in the future we need to go up on the roof, remove a panel & reset the # . hope this infor saves someone else time & $ !
In computer land they have power supply efficiency ratings. Bronze through platinum. It's a percent efficiency rating that is usually not at 100% power. But it's around 80% draw. But then again that may not be everyone's use case, but a good reference. But ratings can be paid for and lie about it, in computer land. Maybe hvac land there is a bit more oversight and independent testing.
That's a good point. I'm not sure how that all works. I think generally that there are certain hoops to jump through to get an AHRI certificate on a certain seer rating.
I think the answer to which is better is far more nuanced than the discussion suggests. Pure SEER comparisons and a utility savings is only part of the story that does not give a full picture of the total cost of ownership over the life cycle of the system. And the life cycle of the system depends largely on geographic location. For example, here in the swamp we call South Florida, we have as a norm, poor duct-work that was sized was too small to begin with, common power quality problems, and most importantly, an operating duration of 10-11 months per year for air conditioning. If you have a home that was built during SEER 12 system minimum standards, installing a 20 SEER system without some very serious analysis of duct-work, especially on the return plenum is a great way to beg for huge customer problems including mold in the supply duct from condensate that has blown off of the evaporator coil from excessive velocity. So now, even after getting the customer to pay for the duct upgrade, if the installation does not include surge protection, shielded conductors on high voltage power conductors located near electronic circuitry, and some other considerations, you will likely get 12 years of service from this unit in our location, because our location has double the annual operating use than other places. So now, what is the total cost of ownership difference for the 12 year period? I don't have a strong opinion either way on the issue. For homes that have residents who need high indoor air quality with tight humidity control, inverter systems are great. For people who don't have such needs, and who have a new home that already complies with the 2006 codes for return ducts in all living spaces, a less expensive, lower SEER unit might be just fine, particularly if they get to skip having to do duct work too. But each of those parameters are only a part of the story when factoring total cost of ownership. My personal 3-year old home system has had an expensive communicating board replaced on the condensing unit, but overall, I am very happy with it. In-rush current starting compressors with a contactor is a huge power consumer and is hard on compressor life. I do appreciate inverter systems for that improvement in design.
Yes sir. You bring up a whole other set of issues especially with the ductwork. There are many issues that can be debated. My video was meant to let folks know that if installed properly, inverter systems are worth the extra investment when comparing apples to apples. We have folks that have never installed one telling homeowners the opposite. I think it’s because they are sometimes not wanting to learn something new or deal with any extra headaches. That said, mini split or conventional system, if it has an inverter Compressor, we always install surge protection. Anyway, thank you for your input!
@@NewHVACGuide I agree. I used them in large commercial and now residential. I like them and trust them. But here where I am at, most techs aren't well qualified to explain the advantages. I had a great 500 ton VFD Trane R123 chiller when I worked in DC at the Federal Reserve. the energy savings was over $200k per year.
Wow! 😯
You better have your ductwork sized properly If you install a high seer system.
Very true sir
You also think about the expensive parts of high SEER AC systems, and longer time technician will do the diagnoses, which will eat up your savings. Basically you just give your saved money to repair companies
Sounds like you've had some bad experiences. I don't think we've had any experiences like that. Warranties lasting years avoid the part pricing and our techs can diagnose inverter systems pretty quick too ;-)
There seems to be a HUGE push for Daiken inverter systems. Not easy to see anything except cheerleading for this system. Can't find many independent reviews. I assume they haven't been out long.
I agree. I couldn't find independent reviews either but bit the bullet and had a 4 ton Daikin fit installed. Has only been in service for 3 days and the weather in South Florida has been cool and cloudy. I have solar panels and an electric car, so it will be hard to determine any energy savings (which is why I have been looking up reviews). So far my only issue has been that per the installer, an inverter should be sized higher than a traditional system (unsure if this is true or not). This makes the air handler width go from 20 inches or so to 24.5 inches. In my personal situation, my ac closet is exactly 25 inches wide, so obviously that poses it's own challenges along with refabricating a new closet door post install. Also, my previous 3 ton single stage could not get my 1500sqft house below 76F on a hot summer day, so maybe the upgrade was necessary after all!? I'm hoping for comfort in the summer at the least, and at best huge energy savings. Fingers crossed.
@@michaelbuschmanable Wow. We have similar conditions. My house is 1500 sq ft. I had a 3 ton AC that did a satisfactory job at cooling. It had to run all the time on exceptionally hot days, but I consider that a good thing. You don't want it cycling because that initial draw to start is big! I've had my new FIT for a couple of months. So far, I'm skeptical of efficiency and energy savings. I have solar too. This is not apple to apples but take from it what you wish. My 3 ton AC wo9uld show surges on my solar app of around 4 kwh. Now I have 3.5 ton FIT which shows surges around 4-4.5 KWH. I assume the FIT will run a lower electric draw throughout the day because of the inverter action, but the inverter (as you will find out) is almost always running! I get more than enough air being pushed with a 3.5 ton. I don't know how our air handlers compare. But with Heat pumps, they don't get hot like furnaces. I've only had a chance to use the heater. So you have to push more air because it's not very hot. I assume it's going to be very similar in summer with the AC. ie Probably not very cold! Pushing a lot of air, but I guessing it won't be as cold as a condenser style AC. I bet the draw will be similar too, meaning I'm not sure if savings really exist!
Another important note. You could only get your previous AC to cool below 76 degrees? If it was near 100 degrees outside, I doubt you'll get any better with this. That's purely a guess, but it's difficult to get any AC to cool more than 20 degrees more than outside temp.
Haven't watched video yet I my opinion inverter drive is way better for constant temperature controll
Very true
1300 sq ft. 3 tonnage 10.. 75 is good temperature for me. Not planning on moving. Advised I needed 3 1/2 tonnage 14 seer minimum.
I opted for 4 tonnage 14 seer. Questioning whether I should have gone 16 seer. Cost difference was not an issue for me.
Split systems are much better than package units. You probably had to re duct the house. That alone will create those savings.
Good point!
The price differences are nuts with all the contractors in my area single stage split system by American standard versus A two stage and a variable speed system is expensive I've been quoted from $8,000 single stage heat pump all the way up to $25,000 for a variable speed 5 ton heat pump unit and variable speed air handler. (apparently the common brand with almost all of my contractors in my area they all use American Standard)
I'm seeing the exact same issue and it doesn't make sense. The equipment doesn't cost that much more and the labor costs are very similar.
I’m in FL and still getting quotes but my winner quote (note I did not say winning) for 5 ton top of the line Lennox (to replace a 12 year old leaky coil top of the line Lennox) was just under $30K 😂 😂😂😂. My roof replacement was only $20k
I've got lots of comments, lol. Sorry
I was old skool and didn't think they perfected 4k tv's I still have 1080p. Now I want to jump to 8k and skip 4k. Hilarious I am.
I've seen several inverter setups. Very quiet. I have an old piston 2 ton rattle trap. Super noisy. I hate it. I replaced one capacitor on it, someone else did some time ago. It's about 25 years old. Love that is reliable but not efficient. Not terrible, but super noisy. Electricity is fairly cheap. I think I'll DIY a dual fuel, heat pump furnace setup. I just want to not get woken up every time the compressor fires up. And my neighbors will thank me.
The concept of always running the blower inside the house is very tantalizing. To always monitor and adjust or have freedom to do what you want. To maintain comfort in our slightly drafty house would be awesome. To always be filtering air. To cycle humidifier or de-humidifier if we had one. But not fire up the furnace or AC just to do that. Or a smart thermostat to do that. And to control the blower speed as well. To have a very slow quiet one that can idle 24/7
I have a friend that install a mini split for the cooling capability but pretty much almost always leaves are on the dehumidification settings
9:30 who is giving lifetime warranties??? Mitsibushi mini splits are 12 years if installed by thier diamond pros. Never heard of any mini splits warranty longer than that.
Just grabbed my second Daikin aurora(20 seer/12.5 HSPF), the mitsubishi hyper heat(30.5 seer/12.5 HSPF) was $500 more and I would only break even in 15 years with our electricity rate, no thank you lol
* note I was looking at 3/4 ton 9k BTU units
Nice. I think you’ll be happy with the Aurora.
@@NewHVACGuide yes I've been extremely happy with my basement Daikin Aurora 12k BTU! Do you know if Daikin is planning on releasing more efficient models? 30+ seer, 16+ HSPF , 4.5+ COP ?
I would imagine as time goes on they all will get higher and higher. Daikin seems to focus more on performance and reliability than efficiency.
@@NewHVACGuide yes that's what I've noticed, its a good trade off though! The efficiency isn't all that bad in the end, especially when you compare the total consumption of smaller 9k/12k units.
We installed Mitsubishi for years before switching to Daikin. I don’t think we will ever go back
The new Mitsubishi air ducted system runs at 4 amps at full capacity.
Daikin too! Crazy!
@@NewHVACGuide I like daikin VRV 5 I’ve installed a bunch of there equipment. The only thing I like more from Mitsubishi you don’t have to have someone else Commission system. Daikin makes you take their service class and buy their 2000 dollar service commissioning tool. I don’t have a problem with the service or install classes I think it a good thing. I have a problem with having to buy a 2000 dollar tool.
Iv installed a bunch of vrv 5 systems. Im vrv 5 certified for install and service when I worked for a company I could commission the systems
I say cutting cost because you do have a choice not to waist money at all and use what you have therefore creating savings.
I know what you're saying. I think it depends on the situation. Somehow's is it would definitely not make sense to oversize it but somehow says wouldn't matter whether it was oversized or not
Would you consider doing a video on what I constantly hear as an issue with ductless minisplits? That they won't remove humidity like a traditional ducted split? With all things being equal, is this true? It seems everyone just blames oversizing. But, IF the system is sized properly? Forums online say this is an issue, my contractors say it isn't. PS I posted this before I had finished the video; interesting you touched on this topic.
FYI, I tune into your videos (and I subscribed) because of the good content. I paid the $20 for your guide. I don't tune in based on how wide your mouth is open or how goofy you look in the thumbnail. Just sayin... It's amazing how many UA-camrs use open-mouth headshots in their thumbnails.
Sorry I should have listened to the entire video before commenting. Why is a technician trying to argue the value of any system? That unit isn’t going into the techs home. It’s up to the customers to decide value for themselves. I get your point anyway. Yes those guys are just scared of new tech and are not willing to evolve.
The bad thing about the inverters is that if the motherboard goes out after the warranty, that's 2 grand right there.
2 grand? What brand are you referring to? I've never paid 2 grand.
@@NewHVACGuide Lennox or Trane.
@@scifiuniverses3736 Wow. I've replaced Trane boards before and didn't pay 2 grand!
@@NewHVACGuide That was back in 2020, that's why I am going with single-stage 16 seer Amana.
I get sick of hearing Amana is mid-level HVAC equipment, that makes no sense why they would give a lifetime on the compressor with a complete condenser replacement if the compressor goes out if it was a mid-level.
However I have seen 20, 30, 40, 50 and even 60 year old single stage systems still running without leaks, on the original compressor and heat exchanger!
That’s awesome!
Yessiree but the electric meter has had two sets of bearings replaced due to the fast rotations the wheel moves.
I have an old 3 ton Rheem made in 1988 that works fine but damn that high electric bill. I'm on time of use during the summer from 2pm to 7pm. My highest bill was $228. I also have a second energy star central unit upstairs from 2005. Looking to upgrade to a more efficient AC setup for downstairs.
You wouldn’t be installing a 12 seer, so that’s not a fair comparison in energy savings. If you installed a 16 seer single stage the difference wouldn’t be nearly as much compared to the inverter if matched with the right coil.
Inverters are superior to single stage in efficiency regardless of the SEER rating
@@NewHVACGuide - 8 bucks a month may not be worth an extra 4k initial investment.
Goodman systems I know 100% for a while they went to a communicating board/system then could run off of the cheaper multi stage stats.. here in SoCal tho with ALLLLL the recent bs over last like 5 years I could be wrong now…!! But I still back Goodman, Daikin ect… whatever.. just none that sensitive made to make crazy noise Ultra Low Nox Trane an Lennox units are just terrible gas valve setups, especially if it’s a 2stage valve smh.. sound like blowin up on ignition.. at only 3.0inwc or less gas pressure.. No bueno sorry for the rant I feel better tho 😂😂
Biggening of 2023 we won't have the choice anymore
It's definitely coming!
Yep they have started the Nintendo effect You always got to buy that brand new system to play the new games That’s how HVAC is getting 🤣 Pretty much the way of the future is when you’re system is low on Freon you’re just gonna have no other option but to replace it
That’s a good way to describe it!
Consider the duty cycle of your AC before wasting money on a higher SEER AC unit! You would be better off going for the highest efficiency heating system if that has a higher usage.
As a licensed contractor in south Florida 30yrs in business, I totally agree with you. It all depends on the current living conditions, and what the customer is trying to achieve. If it's a simple 2 ton system in a 800 square ft apartment, then an inverter system may not be a first choice. 3 to 5 ton, multiple zone system homes, then yes, I have no problem suggesting an inverter system.
Thanks pal. I don't get a lot of "agreement". So I appreciate it :-)
Then an ECM replacement cost and wipes out 15 years of saving.
See it all the time
my ecm is completely covered for 11 years, i won't complain yet....
70 dollars savings per month x 15 years = $12,600 ....... if ECM fails.... i can buy another entire system and still come ahead $4000.
Its new technology, well new for the HVAC industry anyway. New technology is expensive. I'm willing to bet money that in 10 years these parts will be a fraction of what they are now.
@@TheSloppyDingo I hope you're right. That's certainly been the case with computers.
@@TheSloppyDingo its new in the US, vrv was registered in the 80 by daikin...
Old video but there's also a $2000 tax credit for inverters
AUDIO QUALITY IS BAD.
NEED A GOOD MIC
Thanks!