As a tech, I'd like to see an industry standard communicating language so the aftermarket could jump in and some kind of emergency mode where you could make it a single stage, for when that fancy, proprietary thermostat takes a dump on Friday night!
being locked into a proprietary thermostat, like econet, has been nothing but trouble for us, I despise communicating systems! We are now at the point of looking for a replacement for the brand new system. All companies can talk efficiencies all they want, but truth is, our system is running like a single stage system when heating...max speed outdoor fan, max speed compressor, max speed air handler fan speed. I believe the ramp up/ramp down literature is all based on A/C needs of the home. Also the communicating part is telling the air handler to immediately go into HIGH AUX heat every single cycle...there is no way this is energy efficient!
@@tewindle sounds like it's not setup properly for your home. Communicating systems work great when they are working but in my ~15 years I've met very few techs that were proficient on the communicating systems for the brand they sell, let alone the systems made by every manufacturer.
So far, replaced 3 heatpumps, 4 thermostats, and the communication board on the air handler, refrigerant charge checked many times, all new electrical, all new duct system....there isn't really anything left to do except swap to another brand system. Something is just off and the manufacturer says...all works as intended. It's just frustrating to spend sooo much money for what is believed to be a top of the line communicating system, yet it performs no better than a 20 year old single stage.
I installed a Mr Cool universal. You need a decent thermostat & outdoor thermostat that allows you to lockout the heat strips at a specific temp (if you even want heat strips). The non communicative has proven to be “smart enough” and paired with the right thermostat it is a wonderful advancement in hvac. You’re right about the difficulty finding techs to install/work on them but I suspect this to be less of an issue in the next 5-7 years. And I think it’s only an issue today to the degree that you’ll have to simply “call around” to find someone competent and willing to work on them. Manufacture provides 10 years parts & phone support so as a diy’er i’m not really concerned but recognize i might not recommend to others they jump on the bandwagon just yet. These inverter systems are too expensive unless you’re diy so it will take govt regulations getting tougher and these systems will be the gold standard in 5-10 years.
I’ve been running a non communicating Bosch heat pump with an Ecobee thermostat for about 8 years. Bosch uses a target temp for the indoor coil and modulates the condenser accordingly. I’ve recently upgraded the blower unit to be multi-stage. The system runs in stage 1 the majority of the time, hits stage 2 occasionally and almost never hits the heat strips. This is using Ecobee’s longest cycle settings to approximate the Bosch one cycle per hour targets along with letting the Ecobee automatically control the staging. No complaints.
I have only service Bosch equipment before, but I know they are pretty decent quality. I love the multi-stage systems of any brand that runs properly. I don't need to name the two brands I sell but they have twin systems to your system design and it is exciting to see efficiency running as it should plus the customer being happy to be saving money. We don't use heat strips here in Denver as our dual-fuel system are NG furnaces and straight AC or what I prefer to sell 90% of the time is a high-efficiency heat pumps, especially when they have solar panels. Those long cycles are very important to efficiency and the Ecobee is a fantastic product.
Just got a quote for an inventor system and heat pump and shocked at the price. The quote was $25,000. I looked into it because my house system is 22 years old and inefficient but working. Instead I am thinking of just adding 12 more panels to my new solar system that would cost a fraction of the cost.
that cost is INSANE!!! I looked at 3T Inverters yesterday(not Inventors) that were between $3500-4500 product alone. I can't imagine Labor being $20,000.00 more. But maybe you needed a larger unit and many extras.
I understand inverters are more efficient when they're running. I think part of the problem is they are almost always running. 2 acquaintances have told me, it's questionable if there's any savings. They are running almost all the time. And the price contractors are charging kills any savings, it seems. I had mine installed about a month ago. I've only been using the heater. The heater is using the same (probably a bit more) as my old 9 SEER air conditioner that it replaced. I "assume" the air conditioner will use similar energy in the summer. I'm not sure where the savings are.
@@ChiefRRoss I'd rather not throw the installer under, but I do live in Los Angeles county. California. The install appears to be fine. It's just they are always freaking running. Maybe 85% of the time is more correct. Could be 90%.
@@twoweeledsoto6072 Well friend, you're the one said "the price contractors are charging kills any savings". Your Words. Every Inverter Description I've read clearly said, "unlike the traditional HVAC units that turn on and off, our inverters run constantly". SO, they told you, You Should've known it runs constantly before buying it assuming you did your due diligence researching it. HOPEFULLY it's as advertised and is Quiet at least. As for the SEER, I'm in SW Ohio, and am looking to get one that has between 16-24 SEER. I've not seen Inverters rated much less than that, so it has to be doing better than the 9 SEER you used to have. I only asked what your installer charged to get a general idea what I had to look forward to, although a CALI. price is likely going to be 2x as much. GOOD LUCK, hope you get used to it,.
@@ChiefRRoss Well, you really don't know if they told me or not. You are assuming that. If they did, you don't know how clear they were on that. I did get the general feeling they run more, yes. But they run much more than I ever imagined. I know it was never explained why they run. They are not always cooling or heating when they run. To filter the house? Maybe, but I don't recall reading that on every review I read, and I read a bunch! I still don't know why they just run and blow air. Temp is correct and they still run, just cooling/heating stops. Inverters run constantly? Ask 5 people what constantly means relative to AC and I bet not all answers are the same. I think mine is around a 17 seer. that's another issue. How the ratings work. Not all 17 seer work at the same level. Governmental changes is what I understand. Mine is 17 and near $19K ish. Including ducting which will probably have to be done, because you will probably go up in size. Maybe 1/2 ton more, depending how your existing system handled things. I am happy with the performance. It is quieter. Along with larger ducts, we increases the return registers. In my uneducated mind. Letting it breath easier with less restriction. Heating and cooling are not as noticeable/perceptible as my past system. It doesn't get as hot, nor as cold. but I have a bigger system along with the blower (air handler) and I'm getting more air going into the house. Not as cold, but more of it. Which is why I'd advise going larger. There's more of course but I'm getting writer's cramp and your eyes are probably hurting. Any questions, just ask! Important to note. I have solar panels. FYI
Most inverter mini splits have indoor and outdoor temperature sensors they comunícate and function like you explain do no need for communicating thermostat as they ramp up and run faster compressor speeds on hotter days or lower temperature demands
I have solar panels, which were installed last November. A couple weeks ago we had a Lennox Signature Series modulating furnace and inverter heat pump. On a sunny day I am running my whole house, including heating and still sending a bunch of electricity back to the grid. When the sun is not shining I heat with gas. This summer I should be cooling my home for free as long as the sun is up. I’m planning on adding batteries so I can continue to heat/cool for free after the sun goes down.
Hello Owen I am a fellow HVAC service technician it looks like you’re a sound guy and I think you have you’re bases covered. I would recommend having a maintenance performed because I found the 90% lennox furnaces have small leaks there first year due to there second water condensation drain line. I usually just tighten the joints or add more glue and then it solves it. Maybe you could turn your furnace on and inspect all the hoses while it’s running and check for moisture. It’s a good idea :)
As an electrician, specialty PVS/LiFePO4 grid tie, the future for HVAC can only be inverter, they integrate into modern energy efficient smart homes. I am not in the US, I cant believe you guys (or even the environmental / efficiency rules) still allows the use of the old fashioned single-phase capacitor start induction motors. When I have a sneaky look around the re-cycling centre, there is an entire dept for old air conditioning, hundreds of perfectly working non-inverter systems that have had to be upgraded. I bet in the US you can probably still buy fluorescent tubes and bulbs with filaments!
Fluorescent tubes Yes I think are available...but I can't swear they are, but Bulbs with filaments went away long ago. You probably knew that and was just kidding. But just in case, gotta stand up for my Country. HA.
@@NewHVACGuide Come to San Antonio in April. Fiesta lasts 2 weeks with parades, food booths, concerts, and partying. I call it Mardi Gras without the violence. Bring a 4 ton 17 or 18 seer Amana or Rheem and 2 stage air handler for the attic. I'm replacing the 8" ductwork with 9" myself. Thanks
We just started carrying daiken as a brand. They sent representatives to teach our the “Daiken way” and all. Main grump I have is the way you program their boards. You have to push buttons in sequence 24 times, 72 times, 53 times. If you mix up pushes it will not work. Very frustrating
Yeah, you'd think the companies would eventually develop some system like the OBDII on cars. Basic function then mfr specific controllable thought third party scanner.
Josh the done problem with your least suggestion is some companies will recommend a non communicating system because they don’t have to be a certified dealer, sell a certain number of units,; etc. Bosch is a good example of this. Like you I agree Bosch is a great system for right environment .dry ! Esp cold and dry -very energy efficient for heating. But it’s just not designed to deal with humidity . In fact, it’s a bad choice for a humid environment ? For phoenix. Sat lake city, outstanding choice. Quiet, priced right, thermostat agnostic, and easier if a retrofit, keeping indoor components. The new 20 seer units allow the coil to be set (dip switch ?/)nto 37 degrees apparently-do you think that will make a difference ?
I've been in HVAC industry for 8 years and could not be more disappointed with the insane prices that I'm seeing with high-end equipment, I'm seeing more than double the cost for the initial equipment cost comparing the most efficient to the least efficient equipment and I'm seeing the repair costs are astronomical for the inverter driven equipment or ecm's. The only people I see putting in the top of the line equipment are old people with lots of money to blow.
@NewHVACGuide southern Minnesota, I just put in a $3,000 inverter for a 3 ton residential AC 2 weeks ago. There is no debating that the fancy equipment is more efficient and cheaper to operate but it is so much more expensive to purchase and repair. Also the need for tech support to troubleshoot these new pieces of equipment is frustrating, this year I ran into a problem trying to troubleshoot a 15 ton Trane rooftop unit with a vfd blower and Trane would not help me because I'm not a Trane dealer
Getting a Bosch BOVA 2.0 Split System Heat Pump installed along with a Bosch BVA Series Air Handler. Regarding the use of a smart thermostat: I was planning on using an Ecobee3 Lite with the new system. Could I just disable the Smart Recovery feature, to avoid the possible problems you mention when using a smart thermostat with a non-communicating Bosch system?
What do you think the likelihood would be of entire systems communicating over IP protocol? Most smart thermostats already are Wi-Fi enabled, and air handlers inside the home typically will be within the range of a wireless router, in addition to already having a physical connection to the condenser. I'm by no means an HVAC tech, so I'm more than open to being corrected. I just think that if all systems used a widely available protocol that's already in the majority of homes, we could have standardized communicating systems without proprietary equipment being an issue.
Josh, my Bryant Evolution 189BNV 4-ton AC unit states the two quoted sentences below in the literature. How can it be both? "Compressor 5-stage rotary with 25-100% capacity range. Control Inverter driven compressor and fan motor. " Separate statements but same comment about my system: I love the system as I know it is identical but less expensive than the matching Carrier. The AC unit rarely runs outside of the first or second stage of cooling. I love the variable speed ECM blower motor and my static pressure is fantastic and I have a AprilAire 1620 filtration system and AprilAire 700 Automatic. My Evolution furnace even at -5 never leaves the 1st stage of heating.
I’m technical support for York, Mitsubishi, and Bosch in the Houston area and I love your videos. York released a unit a few years ago that is doing really well called the HMH7(rebranded Hisense). It’s a mini split condenser that was reverse engineered to work with non-communicating indoor units. It works like the Bosch in regards to monitoring the suction pressure/temp to determine what speed to run the outdoor motor and compressor. The unique thing about this unit is the outdoor unit determines the fan speed through a relay. It’s only 2 speeds, but it defaults to hi-speed and if the outdoor ambient is low or it determines there’s a low load on the evaporator, it sends 24v to the relay switching the fan speed to low. You wire the relay directly to the motor taps. Right now, they have it priced in line with 16 SEER 2-stage units, so it’s a really competitive unit to have in your offering. You are getting inverter technology without having to upgrade everything to communicating. We’ve been selling it for about a year and so far they’ve been pretty solid. Almost all calls I’ve gotten are either from wiring or wrong thermostat settings. In regards to smart thermostats, or the Nest in general, I’ve gotten the same message from JCI tech services - stay away. The main reason is using one without a common. The Bosch reasoning is their unit does these long cycles and slowly ramps capacity and you want it running for long periods(1 cycle per hour preferably) and if your thermostat is “learning” during these periods it’s going to cause havoc. There’s other issues but this comment is long enough. My favorite out of everything is Mitsubishi. They are coming out with an A-coil that is going to kill it in Houston due to all the furnaces we have. Plus, in my opinion, their manufacturing and build quality is top notch.
I have the HMH7 4 ton unit paired with a york variable speed Air Handler, I was amongest the first few in Georgia that had installed it when they were launched. I have an Ecobee premium thermostat that controls the HMH7, do I need to change it?
I've installed a bunch of the bosch units fairly nice units. Just wish they had an EEV and came with variable speed blowers. Cool to see the inverter battle brings out the best for the customers.
Why do people complain about the humidity. I’m in southern Cali and we have like 55% humidity usually. I’m assuming I won’t be having issues with that.
Can a communicating system be run as a noncommunicating system, in otherwise is it possible to do a delete on the communicating system, when a part of the communicating system fails, and operate it as a noncommunicating conventional system.
i ahve a "old style" heat pump with oil as my backup. my current honeywell has adapted to my home and knows when to start the ac or heat to make sue it meets the scheduled temperature. So if i have to get rid of my thermostat i'll stay with what i hae i would consider not getting a communicating systems vs paying the higher price for said system.
I believe my 35 year old 3 ton Trane AC condenser finally broke. The house is fully electric, in the winter we have a furnace that stores energy with also the air handler able to produce heat. Looking for recommendations for a new condenser, should l stick with a single stage or can l change to an inverter? My thermostat is Ecobee 4. Thank you Troy
Just found your channel, new sub. I have 23 yr old R22 HVAC unit. Waiting to buy soon, but don't want to buy a R410A phased out refrigerant unit. Looking for something that will work better in the southwest region-desert environment up to 110-to 115 some days in the summer
I was a factory service tech for Trane Commercial over twenty years ago and I will tell you that I would not put a new Trane system in my house or building today. They are simply over-priced garbage these days!
@@NewHVACGuide I also have worked on residential systems as well. After the Ingersoll-Rand acquisition, The warranty issues went through the roof and the prices went up as well. I would put Goodman up against them any day for quality and the pricing is much better not to mention Trane can’t get parts sometimes for six months.
I think what you are going to see in the future is a lot more air to water systems feeding a hydrocoil in a air handler. These new air to water systems are monoblocked, meaning they are factory charged and sealed just like a window unit. Set them ,wire them and then pipe PEX from them to the air coil. Install some insulation and you are ready to go. No evacuation, simple PEX water lines with a little antifreeze. They make your hot water for bathing eliminating the heat pump water heater. If it breaks it can be removed and a spare unit tied in in a matter of minutes and taken back to the shop for repair. Will they communicate? Probably, it is much easier to control heat with water than air and the simplicity of these systems will allow them to be fit to your typical warm air system. Dehumidification is much better with chilled water. With everyone hell bent on heat pumps this is definitely the best way of doing it. If there was ever a system that lent itself to the diy market...this is it.
@@mrpatter19888 Let's see, Im heading to the ASHRE show this Monday and we will see what is hot and what is not. It has already happened in Europe. All this o ring squeeze fittings, guys soft soldering, leaking flare joints, all this goes away with a monoblock. All you have to do is PEX it up and throw on some insulation. Even if you eliminate the DIY guys your shops won't have to hire mechanics anymore, just a couple of handymen can fiberboard a air handler in and run some pex tubing. You wont need gauges and brazing equipment anymore. Labor prices will go down. Space pack has already invested heavily in this tech ua-cam.com/video/aauyPehwsHM/v-deo.html
@@rivergate950 They all make them. Very common in Europe and Asia. I posted links to the units but by comment disappeared so all I can tell you is search google with "air to water heat pump"
Struggling on a decision. We're in KY see all 4 seasons to their peaks. Can get to 100 and get down to 0. We have a new build with an attached party barn. Total square footage 7,000. We're being quoted 5 Bosch inverter systems (only 16 SEER). We only have access to propane so we leaned towards inverter systems with good insulation. I'm lost. Need less units with higher SEER systems like Daikin? Just trying to avoid insane electric bills. What's the point of 5 systems when you're probably paying just as much in electric at 16 SEER versus something else? Please help
I am not interested in proprietary thermosets, or systems that require or even recommend one. I like open source freedom. I am hoping that we begin to see thermostats exceed what ecobee has to offer, with lots of aux modes and fan configurations, with many stages of heating and cooling based on rules that work well with variable inverter systems, hydronics, economization etc, and cloud based weather data, and indoor/outdoor air quality sensor data, without lock in.
I’m located in South Alabama near the gulf coast in a subtropical climate and high humidity. My regular HVAC company is a Lennox dealer, and it’s time for a system replacement for my home. I’m interested in the inverter technology but they keep telling me to go the traditional route with a single stage system. I called another HVAC company for a quote and they too “prefer” the single stage system and say they are more reliable. I can’t figure out what’s going on? Do the contractors just not want to learn the new technology with inverters and communicating technology? Or is the single stage systems more simple and therefore more reliable?
Thinking of using an ECOBEE with Lennox EL23XCV / EL297V as a “non-communicating” setup. Lennox offers 3 “modes” to choose from when in non-com mode. I just can’t handle the Lennox thermostat which looks like a glorified android tablet after getting used to and loving a nest. Hoping to bide my time until Lennox gets their act together
How is having the ability to trun off and on vs. having a 20%-30-40-60-100% Inverter system. Wouldn't a duty cycle of a normal system be the same as a inverter system? The old style just truns on less on cooler days vs hoter days. Yeah i get that it only uses the power that it needs to cool. Do they just run all the time and ramp up and down as needed? Vs a normal one has a duty cycle that just full go or off and just truns on more on the hotter days
There are certainly days that either system will run less. However, a communicating inverter system will have the ability to learn the parameters and run as efficiently as possible. Less short cycling and longer runtimes, but drawing very little electricity while running.
Depends. You can have a mini split use a capillary tube, or an EEV, or some could use a traditional TXV for an air handler (Gree Flexx uses TXV inside, multiple EEVs outsite).
@@NewHVACGuide background of some southern sounding vowels, and the way you pronounce “on”. Your vid was helpful, having some hvac issues/thermostat issues at our house and discovered that we have an inverter heat pump. Been in the house for about a year had no idea.
You said this I year ago "Save $50 of energy a year, cost $2000 to fix every few years" Would this be true on a 2 stage AC unit or are you talking inverter or variable/3 speed?I was looking into a 2 stage AC for my soon to move in daughter's (24 age) new to her 1885 (year) house (no air) in St paul MN and she has a 3D printer farm and we have humidity issues at my house and I thought the 2 stage would help keep the humidity down by running more. We have to keep a large dehumidifier running in the small printer room too. The Trane/American Standard suggests a 3.5 ton for her house, but maybe get a 3.0 ton single stage would be the wat to go. We could add a floor AC unit if we had to if we needed to kill the extra heat and humidity during really hot/humid days in the summer. We like to be at the 30% area but at my house with central air we were 35%-39% ish during humid days.
As a tech, I'd like to see an industry standard communicating language so the aftermarket could jump in and some kind of emergency mode where you could make it a single stage, for when that fancy, proprietary thermostat takes a dump on Friday night!
I'm scared
being locked into a proprietary thermostat, like econet, has been nothing but trouble for us, I despise communicating systems! We are now at the point of looking for a replacement for the brand new system. All companies can talk efficiencies all they want, but truth is, our system is running like a single stage system when heating...max speed outdoor fan, max speed compressor, max speed air handler fan speed. I believe the ramp up/ramp down literature is all based on A/C needs of the home. Also the communicating part is telling the air handler to immediately go into HIGH AUX heat every single cycle...there is no way this is energy efficient!
@@tewindle sounds like it's not setup properly for your home. Communicating systems work great when they are working but in my ~15 years I've met very few techs that were proficient on the communicating systems for the brand they sell, let alone the systems made by every manufacturer.
So far, replaced 3 heatpumps, 4 thermostats, and the communication board on the air handler, refrigerant charge checked many times, all new electrical, all new duct system....there isn't really anything left to do except swap to another brand system. Something is just off and the manufacturer says...all works as intended. It's just frustrating to spend sooo much money for what is believed to be a top of the line communicating system, yet it performs no better than a 20 year old single stage.
@@tewindle whow
I installed a Mr Cool universal. You need a decent thermostat & outdoor thermostat that allows you to lockout the heat strips at a specific temp (if you even want heat strips). The non communicative has proven to be “smart enough” and paired with the right thermostat it is a wonderful advancement in hvac. You’re right about the difficulty finding techs to install/work on them but I suspect this to be less of an issue in the next 5-7 years. And I think it’s only an issue today to the degree that you’ll have to simply “call around” to find someone competent and willing to work on them. Manufacture provides 10 years parts & phone support so as a diy’er i’m not really concerned but recognize i might not recommend to others they jump on the bandwagon just yet. These inverter systems are too expensive unless you’re diy so it will take govt regulations getting tougher and these systems will be the gold standard in 5-10 years.
I’ve been running a non communicating Bosch heat pump with an Ecobee thermostat for about 8 years. Bosch uses a target temp for the indoor coil and modulates the condenser accordingly. I’ve recently upgraded the blower unit to be multi-stage. The system runs in stage 1 the majority of the time, hits stage 2 occasionally and almost never hits the heat strips. This is using Ecobee’s longest cycle settings to approximate the Bosch one cycle per hour targets along with letting the Ecobee automatically control the staging. No complaints.
I have only service Bosch equipment before, but I know they are pretty decent quality. I love the multi-stage systems of any brand that runs properly. I don't need to name the two brands I sell but they have twin systems to your system design and it is exciting to see efficiency running as it should plus the customer being happy to be saving money. We don't use heat strips here in Denver as our dual-fuel system are NG furnaces and straight AC or what I prefer to sell 90% of the time is a high-efficiency heat pumps, especially when they have solar panels. Those long cycles are very important to efficiency and the Ecobee is a fantastic product.
@@Balticblue93 Bosch just rebrands Midea based equipment. Even Pioneer sold the same system a few years ago.
@@Balticblue93yes you are in Denver- high dry and cold- perfect for Bosch non communicating solution-no humidity or trunk season to deal with .
I will going with inverter units this summer. I will make sure to post back afterwards on how they run.
Well?
I have a dual inverter window unit and a inverter heat/a/c mini-split. I like them both. Cheap to run...
Just got a quote for an inventor system and heat pump and shocked at the price. The quote was $25,000. I looked into it because my house system is 22 years old and inefficient but working. Instead I am thinking of just adding 12 more panels to my new solar system that would cost a fraction of the cost.
Just curious what brand of units were you quoted? Just replaced my units at roughly the same age.
that cost is INSANE!!! I looked at 3T Inverters yesterday(not Inventors) that were between $3500-4500 product alone. I can't imagine Labor being $20,000.00 more. But maybe you needed a larger unit and many extras.
I understand inverters are more efficient when they're running. I think part of the problem is they are almost always running. 2 acquaintances have told me, it's questionable if there's any savings. They are running almost all the time. And the price contractors are charging kills any savings, it seems. I had mine installed about a month ago. I've only been using the heater. The heater is using the same (probably a bit more) as my old 9 SEER air conditioner that it replaced. I "assume" the air conditioner will use similar energy in the summer. I'm not sure where the savings are.
What area do you live? And what did your installer charge you? What Brand did you buy and what SEER did it say it was?
@@ChiefRRoss I'd rather not throw the installer under, but I do live in Los Angeles county. California. The install appears to be fine. It's just they are always freaking running. Maybe 85% of the time is more correct. Could be 90%.
@@twoweeledsoto6072 Well friend, you're the one said "the price contractors are charging kills any savings". Your Words.
Every Inverter Description I've read clearly said, "unlike the traditional HVAC units that turn on and off, our inverters run constantly". SO, they told you, You Should've known it runs constantly before buying it assuming you did your due diligence researching it. HOPEFULLY it's as advertised and is Quiet at least.
As for the SEER, I'm in SW Ohio, and am looking to get one that has between 16-24 SEER. I've not seen Inverters rated much less than that, so it has to be doing better than the 9 SEER you used to have. I only asked what your installer charged to get a general idea what I had to look forward to, although a CALI. price is likely going to be 2x as much. GOOD LUCK, hope you get used to it,.
@@ChiefRRoss Well, you really don't know if they told me or not. You are assuming that. If they did, you don't know how clear they were on that. I did get the general feeling they run more, yes. But they run much more than I ever imagined. I know it was never explained why they run. They are not always cooling or heating when they run. To filter the house? Maybe, but I don't recall reading that on every review I read, and I read a bunch! I still don't know why they just run and blow air. Temp is correct and they still run, just cooling/heating stops. Inverters run constantly? Ask 5 people what constantly means relative to AC and I bet not all answers are the same.
I think mine is around a 17 seer. that's another issue. How the ratings work. Not all 17 seer work at the same level. Governmental changes is what I understand. Mine is 17 and near $19K ish. Including ducting which will probably have to be done, because you will probably go up in size. Maybe 1/2 ton more, depending how your existing system handled things. I am happy with the performance. It is quieter. Along with larger ducts, we increases the return registers. In my uneducated mind. Letting it breath easier with less restriction. Heating and cooling are not as noticeable/perceptible as my past system. It doesn't get as hot, nor as cold. but I have a bigger system along with the blower (air handler) and I'm getting more air going into the house. Not as cold, but more of it. Which is why I'd advise going larger. There's more of course but I'm getting writer's cramp and your eyes are probably hurting. Any questions, just ask! Important to note. I have solar panels. FYI
Really good video, really good info. That's a lot of information, but this is totally new to me and much appreciated.
Most inverter mini splits have indoor and outdoor temperature sensors they comunícate and function like you explain do no need for communicating thermostat as they ramp up and run faster compressor speeds on hotter days or lower temperature demands
Great video, I was totally against communicating system but the more I’v learned the more I like them.
I have solar panels, which were installed last November. A couple weeks ago we had a Lennox Signature Series modulating furnace and inverter heat pump. On a sunny day I am running my whole house, including heating and still sending a bunch of electricity back to the grid. When the sun is not shining I heat with gas. This summer I should be cooling my home for free as long as the sun is up. I’m planning on adding batteries so I can continue to heat/cool for free after the sun goes down.
That’s awesome!
Hello Owen I am a fellow HVAC service technician it looks like you’re a sound guy and I think you have you’re bases covered. I would recommend having a maintenance performed because I found the 90% lennox furnaces have small leaks there first year due to there second water condensation drain line. I usually just tighten the joints or add more glue and then it solves it. Maybe you could turn your furnace on and inspect all the hoses while it’s running and check for moisture. It’s a good idea :)
@@User-be5yj everything is out in the open. I see the drain line every day. I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for that.
Enjoy the Lennox class action lawsuit.
As an electrician, specialty PVS/LiFePO4 grid tie, the future for HVAC can only be inverter, they integrate into modern energy efficient smart homes. I am not in the US, I cant believe you guys (or even the environmental / efficiency rules) still allows the use of the old fashioned single-phase capacitor start induction motors. When I have a sneaky look around the re-cycling centre, there is an entire dept for old air conditioning, hundreds of perfectly working non-inverter systems that have had to be upgraded. I bet in the US you can probably still buy fluorescent tubes and bulbs with filaments!
Fluorescent tubes Yes I think are available...but I can't swear they are, but Bulbs with filaments went away long ago. You probably knew that and was just kidding. But just in case, gotta stand up for my Country. HA.
Great info, thanks Josh
Would have liked to hear more about how none comunicating units work in the real world.
Great explanation, learn a lot. Thank you
Josh, i sure wish you would service the Lake Gaston area. we really need a guy like you!
Thanks pal. I've never been to Lake Gaston. I've heard it's nice.
@@NewHVACGuide
Come to San Antonio in April.
Fiesta lasts 2 weeks with parades, food booths, concerts, and partying.
I call it Mardi Gras without the violence.
Bring a 4 ton 17 or 18 seer Amana or Rheem and 2 stage air handler for the attic.
I'm replacing the 8" ductwork with 9" myself.
Thanks
I wish pal. That sounds like fun
We just started carrying daiken as a brand. They sent representatives to teach our the “Daiken way” and all. Main grump I have is the way you program their boards. You have to push buttons in sequence 24 times, 72 times, 53 times. If you mix up pushes it will not work. Very frustrating
@@TheGuruStud explain why you think that daikin is trash
Yeah, you'd think the companies would eventually develop some system like the OBDII on cars. Basic function then mfr specific controllable thought third party scanner.
Great idea, just like USB on computers
Counting is hard.
DUHHHHHHHH
Josh- great post- but I thought you put a Bosch no. Communicating system in your own house, in Norfolk (humidity !)
Josh the done problem with your least suggestion is some companies will recommend a non communicating system because they don’t have to be a certified dealer, sell a certain number of units,; etc. Bosch is a good example of this. Like you I agree Bosch is a great system for right environment .dry ! Esp cold and dry -very energy efficient for heating. But it’s just not designed to deal with humidity . In fact, it’s a bad choice for a humid environment ? For phoenix. Sat lake city, outstanding choice. Quiet, priced right, thermostat agnostic, and easier if a retrofit, keeping indoor components. The new 20 seer units allow the coil to be set (dip switch ?/)nto 37 degrees apparently-do you think that will make a difference ?
What's a good 15/16/or 17 Seer heat pump for humid regions (San Antonio)
I'm looking at Rheem or Amana.
I've been in HVAC industry for 8 years and could not be more disappointed with the insane prices that I'm seeing with high-end equipment, I'm seeing more than double the cost for the initial equipment cost comparing the most efficient to the least efficient equipment and I'm seeing the repair costs are astronomical for the inverter driven equipment or ecm's.
The only people I see putting in the top of the line equipment are old people with lots of money to blow.
Interesting. Where are you located?
@NewHVACGuide southern Minnesota, I just put in a $3,000 inverter for a 3 ton residential AC 2 weeks ago.
There is no debating that the fancy equipment is more efficient and cheaper to operate but it is so much more expensive to purchase and repair.
Also the need for tech support to troubleshoot these new pieces of equipment is frustrating, this year I ran into a problem trying to troubleshoot a 15 ton Trane rooftop unit with a vfd blower and Trane would not help me because I'm not a Trane dealer
Getting a Bosch BOVA 2.0 Split System Heat Pump installed along with a Bosch BVA Series Air Handler. Regarding the use of a smart thermostat: I was planning on using an Ecobee3 Lite with the new system. Could I just disable the Smart Recovery feature, to avoid the possible problems you mention when using a smart thermostat with a non-communicating Bosch system?
What do you think the likelihood would be of entire systems communicating over IP protocol?
Most smart thermostats already are Wi-Fi enabled, and air handlers inside the home typically will be within the range of a wireless router, in addition to already having a physical connection to the condenser.
I'm by no means an HVAC tech, so I'm more than open to being corrected.
I just think that if all systems used a widely available protocol that's already in the majority of homes, we could have standardized communicating systems without proprietary equipment being an issue.
Inverter systems have been used overseas for years mainly heat pumps that can now heat below -20 degrees. The US market is finally getting caught up.
Which brands are the most reliable?
Need one this week.
Josh, my Bryant Evolution 189BNV 4-ton AC unit states the two quoted sentences below in the literature. How can it be both?
"Compressor 5-stage rotary with 25-100% capacity range.
Control Inverter driven compressor and fan motor. "
Separate statements but same comment about my system:
I love the system as I know it is identical but less expensive than the matching Carrier. The AC unit rarely runs outside of the first or second stage of cooling. I love the variable speed ECM blower motor and my static pressure is fantastic and I have a AprilAire 1620 filtration system and AprilAire 700 Automatic.
My Evolution furnace even at -5 never leaves the 1st stage of heating.
Why not? It runs the compressor at 25-100 percent in 5 stages. You can't do that without an inverter.
I’m technical support for York, Mitsubishi, and Bosch in the Houston area and I love your videos.
York released a unit a few years ago that is doing really well called the HMH7(rebranded Hisense). It’s a mini split condenser that was reverse engineered to work with non-communicating indoor units. It works like the Bosch in regards to monitoring the suction pressure/temp to determine what speed to run the outdoor motor and compressor.
The unique thing about this unit is the outdoor unit determines the fan speed through a relay. It’s only 2 speeds, but it defaults to hi-speed and if the outdoor ambient is low or it determines there’s a low load on the evaporator, it sends 24v to the relay switching the fan speed to low. You wire the relay directly to the motor taps.
Right now, they have it priced in line with 16 SEER 2-stage units, so it’s a really competitive unit to have in your offering. You are getting inverter technology without having to upgrade everything to communicating.
We’ve been selling it for about a year and so far they’ve been pretty solid. Almost all calls I’ve gotten are either from wiring or wrong thermostat settings.
In regards to smart thermostats, or the Nest in general, I’ve gotten the same message from JCI tech services - stay away. The main reason is using one without a common. The Bosch reasoning is their unit does these long cycles and slowly ramps capacity and you want it running for long periods(1 cycle per hour preferably) and if your thermostat is “learning” during these periods it’s going to cause havoc. There’s other issues but this comment is long enough.
My favorite out of everything is Mitsubishi. They are coming out with an A-coil that is going to kill it in Houston due to all the furnaces we have. Plus, in my opinion, their manufacturing and build quality is top notch.
Hey pal. Send me an email. I’ve got a question for ya 🙂
What communicating thermostat pairs well with the bosch heat pump?
I have the HMH7 4 ton unit paired with a york variable speed Air Handler, I was amongest the first few in Georgia that had installed it when they were launched. I have an Ecobee premium thermostat that controls the HMH7, do I need to change it?
I've installed a bunch of the bosch units fairly nice units. Just wish they had an EEV and came with variable speed blowers. Cool to see the inverter battle brings out the best for the customers.
Why do people complain about the humidity. I’m in southern Cali and we have like 55% humidity usually. I’m assuming I won’t be having issues with that.
@@HVACOG I think it has to deal with the algorithm that's built into the unit.
@@HVACOG Midwest and have 60-80% and it does become a problem
@@HVACOG Pretend there is 80% of the country NOT in an arid area. Cause there is.
Midwest, South, East coast exist too. Humidity is our big problem.
I was told that the Bosch heat pump works great with the Trane air handlers?
Can a communicating system be run as a noncommunicating system, in otherwise is it possible to do a delete on the communicating system, when a part of the communicating system fails, and operate it as a noncommunicating conventional system.
i ahve a "old style" heat pump with oil as my backup. my current honeywell has adapted to my home and knows when to start the ac or heat to make sue it meets the scheduled temperature. So if i have to get rid of my thermostat i'll stay with what i hae i would consider not getting a communicating systems vs paying the higher price for said system.
Could you tell me if the Daikin Fit and it's thermostat can work with a makeup air kit?
What would be the best communicating thermostat with the bosch IDS heat pump
Have you had any experience with the York/hitachi mini vrv with the DX kit that you add onto you existing furnace.
question, does inverter units dehumidified better than the standard units are less? tks
Loaded question. Overall they should be better. But the latent capacity can still be lower if equipment and ductwork sizing aren’t correct
those control boards scream surge protection
Surges are their biggest predators aside from poor installation of equipment
My old unit has a surge protector getting a new trane installed very soon and surge protector is on the quote
I believe my 35 year old 3 ton Trane AC condenser finally broke. The house is fully electric, in the winter we have a furnace that stores energy with also the air handler able to produce heat.
Looking for recommendations for a new condenser, should l stick with a single stage or can l change to an inverter?
My thermostat is Ecobee 4.
Thank you Troy
How do we get home builders to use new tech? It seems they mostly only install the cheapest systems that comply with local code.
Great question. I completely agree.
Profit for them.
When not to test Heat Pump in heat mode
Just found your channel, new sub. I have 23 yr old R22 HVAC unit. Waiting to buy soon, but don't want to buy a R410A phased out refrigerant unit. Looking for something that will work better in the southwest region-desert environment up to 110-to 115 some days in the summer
There’s a lot of folks in your position. Hopefully these new products come out soon.
I was a factory service tech for Trane Commercial over twenty years ago and I will tell you that I would not put a new Trane system in my house or building today. They are simply over-priced garbage these days!
Ouch! Do you think the commercial and residential quality could be different?
Join us on Tuesday for our live show!
@@NewHVACGuide I also have worked on residential systems as well. After the Ingersoll-Rand acquisition, The warranty issues went through the roof and the prices went up as well. I would put Goodman up against them any day for quality and the pricing is much better not to mention Trane can’t get parts sometimes for six months.
Does anyone have experience with the Gree Flexx? I am looking at putting in a 5 ton unit.
I think what you are going to see in the future is a lot more air to water systems feeding a hydrocoil in a air handler. These new air to water systems are monoblocked, meaning they are factory charged and sealed just like a window unit. Set them ,wire them and then pipe PEX from them to the air coil. Install some insulation and you are ready to go. No evacuation, simple PEX water lines with a little antifreeze. They make your hot water for bathing eliminating the heat pump water heater. If it breaks it can be removed and a spare unit tied in in a matter of minutes and taken back to the shop for repair. Will they communicate? Probably, it is much easier to control heat with water than air and the simplicity of these systems will allow them to be fit to your typical warm air system. Dehumidification is much better with chilled water. With everyone hell bent on heat pumps this is definitely the best way of doing it. If there was ever a system that lent itself to the diy market...this is it.
And I forgot to mention, no flammable refrigerants in the home.
Won’t happen, government doesn’t want people DIYing….
@@mrpatter19888 Let's see, Im heading to the ASHRE show this Monday and we will see what is hot and what is not. It has already happened in Europe. All this o ring squeeze fittings, guys soft soldering, leaking flare joints, all this goes away with a monoblock. All you have to do is PEX it up and throw on some insulation. Even if you eliminate the DIY guys your shops won't have to hire mechanics anymore, just a couple of handymen can fiberboard a air handler in and run some pex tubing. You wont need gauges and brazing equipment anymore. Labor prices will go down. Space pack has already invested heavily in this tech ua-cam.com/video/aauyPehwsHM/v-deo.html
never heard of this are there any units being manufactured today???
@@rivergate950 They all make them. Very common in Europe and Asia. I posted links to the units but by comment disappeared so all I can tell you is search google with "air to water heat pump"
Struggling on a decision. We're in KY see all 4 seasons to their peaks. Can get to 100 and get down to 0. We have a new build with an attached party barn. Total square footage 7,000. We're being quoted 5 Bosch inverter systems (only 16 SEER). We only have access to propane so we leaned towards inverter systems with good insulation. I'm lost. Need less units with higher SEER systems like Daikin? Just trying to avoid insane electric bills. What's the point of 5 systems when you're probably paying just as much in electric at 16 SEER versus something else? Please help
Have any of you folks tried the Ecoer units?
I am not interested in proprietary thermosets, or systems that require or even recommend one. I like open source freedom. I am hoping that we begin to see thermostats exceed what ecobee has to offer, with lots of aux modes and fan configurations, with many stages of heating and cooling based on rules that work well with variable inverter systems, hydronics, economization etc, and cloud based weather data, and indoor/outdoor air quality sensor data, without lock in.
You might get your hope sooner than you think :-)
It's Matter.
I’m located in South Alabama near the gulf coast in a subtropical climate and high humidity. My regular HVAC company is a Lennox dealer, and it’s time for a system replacement for my home. I’m interested in the inverter technology but they keep telling me to go the traditional route with a single stage system. I called another HVAC company for a quote and they too “prefer” the single stage system and say they are more reliable. I can’t figure out what’s going on? Do the contractors just not want to learn the new technology with inverters and communicating technology? Or is the single stage systems more simple and therefore more reliable?
I’m going through the same thing in South Florida… everyone wants to quote only single stage. I don’t know what to do…
@@tomk3635100% go with inverted communication systems ! That’s if you can afford it
What did you replace your unit with?
@TJ-22
C'mon, Man.
You know narcissists only answer if it benefits them. 😂
Go with variable speed my HVAC contractor gives 10yr parts and labor plus 12yr on Trane compressor but that's a typ trane deal with 12yr compressor
Thinking of using an ECOBEE with Lennox EL23XCV / EL297V as a “non-communicating” setup. Lennox offers 3 “modes” to choose from when in non-com mode. I just can’t handle the Lennox thermostat which looks like a glorified android tablet after getting used to and loving a nest. Hoping to bide my time until Lennox gets their act together
I just have a question I got a $20,000 estimate for a top-of-the-line carrier package 2 ton for the high efficiency furnace is that way overpriced
Yes
How is having the ability to trun off and on vs. having a 20%-30-40-60-100% Inverter system. Wouldn't a duty cycle of a normal system be the same as a inverter system? The old style just truns on less on cooler days vs hoter days. Yeah i get that it only uses the power that it needs to cool. Do they just run all the time and ramp up and down as needed? Vs a normal one has a duty cycle that just full go or off and just truns on more on the hotter days
There are certainly days that either system will run less. However, a communicating inverter system will have the ability to learn the parameters and run as efficiently as possible. Less short cycling and longer runtimes, but drawing very little electricity while running.
What kind of metering device does an inverter system use? Is it an EEV
Depends. You can have a mini split use a capillary tube, or an EEV, or some could use a traditional TXV for an air handler (Gree Flexx uses TXV inside, multiple EEVs outsite).
What’s the best wifi thermostat for Bosch non communicating
Ecobee. That's it.
What part of country do you live ?
Stalker 😂
I was going to guess you were from bal’more, and i was close!
Haha. Why Baltimore?
@@NewHVACGuide background of some southern sounding vowels, and the way you pronounce “on”. Your vid was helpful, having some hvac issues/thermostat issues at our house and discovered that we have an inverter heat pump. Been in the house for about a year had no idea.
But I just got Lennox now I'm scared
What exactly did you buy ? Why scared?
@@Holyheart1 3 varable speed units
@@CCCC-tq8yo my plan is new single stage ac and verbal speed air handler I decided to stay away from multiple speed ac unit
@@Holyheart1 whow
@@Holyheart1 did u get it
Save $50 of energy a year, cost $2000 to fix every few years
This is the way
Just like my stock market strategy. Buy high sell low 😢
Cool story bro. A false one, but go on.
You said this I year ago "Save $50 of energy a year, cost $2000 to fix every few years" Would this be true on a 2 stage AC unit or are you talking inverter or variable/3 speed?I was looking into a 2 stage AC for my soon to move in daughter's (24 age) new to her 1885 (year) house (no air) in St paul MN and she has a 3D printer farm and we have humidity issues at my house and I thought the 2 stage would help keep the humidity down by running more. We have to keep a large dehumidifier running in the small printer room too. The Trane/American Standard suggests a 3.5 ton for her house, but maybe get a 3.0 ton single stage would be the wat to go. We could add a floor AC unit if we had to if we needed to kill the extra heat and humidity during really hot/humid days in the summer. We like to be at the 30% area but at my house with central air we were 35%-39% ish during humid days.
Heat pump will never be as efficient as natural gas
Why are you screaming?