As Asmon stated The idea of these big epic battles taking place is cool but once you spawn into these worlds what you experience couldn't be further from that. I played back in the days of UO when there were no such thing as pve servers and the reality is that it's just packs of pks "player killers" rampaging around looking for easy targets. And these people went to great lengths to think of all kinds of underhanded shit to achieve it.
Of course. Most people don't want their hard work to suddenly get flushed down the drain, especially if you got jumped or out leveled. Most people can suffer a loss in a good fight, but most pvp'ers are all about griefing and I get that which is why I don't pvp.
Because those Karens won't let their neckbeard husbands spend any money on "nerdy PC games" but they'll dump hundreds into getting extra striped candies.
@@Bollibompa on every single thing that women buy ? And the supplier knows that too. Women clothes are more expensive, utility like razor or toothbrush are also more expensive. That’s why women’s jean don’t have pocket so they have to go get a fucking bag. Get a clue yet? Wake up.
@@jaytfromsaigon6206 Wake up? You have just claimed a whole bunch of things which are factually wrong. How does that support "Women are usually bigger spenders in everything"? Utility like razor and toothbrush... Do you even think before you write?
@@Bollibompa not really, but you get what I meant since English is my third language. But the fact that you’re out here asking these questions, you’re asleep.
The issue with a system that primarily involves loot being acquired via killing other people is the idea of Loss Aversion. The human brain doesn't treat gaining something and losing something equally, so when you lose something then that loss feels 2x to 3x as bad as gaining that thing would feel good. When you're killed and someone gets your cool sword, you feel far worse than they feel good and this creates an environment where every interaction between players spawns more negativity than positivity. By and large the playerbase will experience more negative moments than positive ones, and that will cause most people to leave after enough time.
Made worse if said reason they lost said items was unfair.. like 5 v 1 with stuns outta the ass in WoW.. losing there feels bad.. would be even more rage inducing if you lost all your gear too.
To me, the biggest failing of this design is that it rewards griefing, not time or skill. All fights are either ganks or a dude beating another half his level, no skill involved. You can't make a game that caters only to griefers.
It is a game design problem not a game genre problem. It has been done correctly in a few games like Darkfall. There were huge guilds with people who played together in a world where there was always friendly fire possible. So many people make these videos or posts on forums saying the genre sucks when they have literally never even played the genre enough to have a clue what they are talking about.
@@bobby45825 Dude, chill. WoW PVP has nothing to do with the video, no one here is complaining about PVP or difficult games, we're pointing out that the design proposition of this genre doesn't work. WoW is not a hardcore pvp game, you don't drop all your gear on death and the vast majority of the territory is safe from pvp. If you go to Mortal Online forums and ask around the community they'll call you a casual and tell you "go back to wow". PVP in WoW works because you fight other players for the fight, not for loot or domination. PVP is great, but it's great when it's balanced and the gameplay is good. Spawn camping, ganking and fighting low level players takes no skill and isn't fun, especially when the gameplay is click to auto attack and wait and while cycling through your skills by pressing 1, 2 and 3. Instead of arguing why you think this isn't the case, you're just assuming stuff about us and isn't presenting any actual arguments or facts, you're adding nothing to the conversation. In fact, by bringing up WoW and Dark Souls you just show that you don't even understand the discussion and the arguments, none of them have any of the features we're saying that, when together, makes an unstainable game.
Indeed without griefers the games would be fine. For some reason though people decide to put all their effort into griefing even when there is nothing to be gained from it. The obvious reason is because there is nothing to lose either. Once your on top of a game like this you can generally stay there by just not fighting people fairly.
@@WodaUtlenioooonaaa It's because ARK is a statsink-based game and RUST is a skill-based hardcore PvP game. There is no greater adversary than another human being, ergo RUST videos are more entertaining to watch. ARK videos require a person to have a personality to entertain. RUST content entertains on its own because of its volatility. Watch me tranquilize this dinosaur and feed it mejoberries for 8 hours or watch a group of angry 12 year olds scream racial slurs at me in VOIP while I burn down their base. It's obvious which one is going to attract more attention.
@@gordieallen6422 that's what I said about ARK's official servers. The true fun begins on tweaked servers with different rates, on which you don't feed dinos mejoberries for 8h or modded somehow else. The thing you're describing happens just as much, but just in different places than people would, I assume, expect.
"Their goal is to take over the server and make everyone else quit the game" pretty much sums up a lot of these people I know. The end goal isn't to have a fun fight or show how much skill you have at the game, it's to own the entirety of a server and make SURE that no new players can build up to stop you. You want the bragging rights, you want the fame. Doesn't matter if you killed a dude ten levels under you with shitty gear, or outnumbered a guy ten to one. You just do it over and over until you've made such a HUGE power gap that you can be comfortably bored until the game shuts down because nobody else is playing lmfao
...or they merge your server with one where the stats show other groups will be a good challenge to you. They have people on salaries thinking about this stuff far longer than you buddy.
This played out 21 years ago. Asheron's Call had a dedicated PvP server called Darktide. When you made a new character and logged in, max level characters would be waiting to kill you and loot you of your starter gear. Then they'd camp you until you logged. The problem became this: Darktide had all predators and no prey. The server population just grew smaller and smaller, until there were just handfuls of players left.
The Darktide/Asheron Call game population declined over combat hacking, not pvp. If you were on Darktide, the intensity was part of the draw; it was the alpha pvp experience when pvp was new. And if I recall, DT's numbers were similar to the other 4 non pvp servers. Asheron's Call's brilliance was important towns, so while in open world pvp the aggressor almost always outnumbers the defenders for a quick gank; in AC a (defenders) town, with instant portals, the defenders often could call on numbers, and make a good and interesting combat of it.
thats hard to balance imho, ik its not a mmo, but look at mordhau, to hardcore for casual and to casual for hardcore with stupid balance so almost noone wants to go hardcore
The issue is that one group on average cannot exist so long as the other does. The casual could care less so long as they have their space. The neckbeards unfortunately would see everything as “theirs”, ESPECIALLY, with what the casuals have. Rather than multifaceted, it would really be separate areas, and even then, it wouldn’t stop a Neckbeard from spilling over into a casual area.
After everything even today people still have this romanticized idea of having that epic fight on top of a mountain or something, where the moment itself was so epic you're not even mad about losing all your stuff on death. But in reality.... in reality... you're gonna get corpse/graveyard camped by a group of people until you give up and log out.
As I watched the video, I thought maybe the solution to this issue would be a forced duel system where you couldn't say no, as long as the game determines the fight is relatively fair. Instead of losing all your stuff, maybe you'd have to stake something(s) of similar value. There would probably need to be all kinds of considerations and exceptions and such, maybe limiting it to one forced duel per hour, no more than one forced duel against a character per day or x days (so you couldn't use an alt account or friend to put you on an hour cooldown), maybe allow you to blacklist a character from challenging you if you lose x times in a row to them to prevent harassment (and a limited number of blacklist slots). There are probably ways to force people to feel the tension of loss, and having it be a real risk/reward experience.
There's a game called Knight Online, theres stricte PvP zone with spots of mobs to farm which u can invade and kill other players and u receive national points that u can turn into items, u don't lose exp or items on death and wars are every week, and there's like 200v200 or more people ( orcs vs humans) but with higher populated servers it's mage mage shit fest, mage parties running rampant just nuking people left and right, it's best pvp in any MMO I've ever played tho.
Can you tell me of a full loot PvP system that allows graveyard camping? All the ones I know, have safe spaces where you respawn, and get to store all your loot in those specific cities.
The paradox of people not having PCs but being able to afford dumping a crapton of money in their mobile game exists in 3rd world countries. It's the concept of thinking small purchases overtime is cheaper versus one big purchase. The effect of bad economy puts people in this mindset and is hard to break out of. -from someone who lives in said country
Also, technically you don't own anything under oppressive regimes because the state could take everything you own and can't hide under your clothes one day and you won't get compensated or to speak about the injustice. Goons take your house and everything in it and you're on the streets with your wallet and phone.
@@SokkingBTtulaj Not sure if that's quite the ever-present danger :P. Also in these countries its normal to be overworked so not having a lot of free time to play on your home PC. Whereas whenever you're commuting or say some free time in work you can whip out your d-I mean phone.
Saving money set me free. You eventually have a big stash you can throw at anything you want when the price is right. Most people live pay check to pay check which is why both debt and freemium games are king.
@@aciuschristophores7789 It's pretty much a danger because nobody is buying property in undeveloped rural areas and the only place left in cities is where poor people live. Don't forget that it's mostly kids being milked in those countries, not the parents. Time is not the problem. It buying an expensive gaming rig just lose it when the bulldozer appears early in the morning.
I agree with Josh here. Getting into hardcore pvp game even days after launch is a freaking nightmare, when it's difficult to even farm the resources, because others with better items are already there, just waiting to take whatever you managed to farm. It was fun. For a day
The thing is - nobody wants to be at bottom of food chain for 90% of time. People daydream of farming others and then sudden realisation hits - they are unhappy because they farmed bottom half of community to death. And at some point there is nobody to farm because biggest fish rarely challenge eachother unless its guild thing.
Yep. Start with 100 players. Bottom 50 leave because they're getting camped indefinitely. Then the bottom 25 that are left leave. Then the bottom 10. Then the bottom 5. Then the bottom 2. Then the bottom 1. Then it's just you and the one guy camping you, and you leave. This is how it goes every single time.
@Reaper Modus People just can't handle competition. Full pvp mmos are my favorite, Tibia, Albion Online, Eve. Some of the funnest times I ever had was playing full loot pvp games.
"Hey Jimbo, what would happen if we made an MMO to cater to the 1% of people who are latent sociopaths but who are afraid to be actual criminals in real life? ... I dunno Bobby, let's spend a couple hundred million dollars to find out."
It's mostly built up by poor people who can't afford consoles or a PC, but their is more poor people than rich people, PC is the smallest group because it's the most expensive but they have the best games.
Even a game like EvE Online -which is pretty hardcore - has systems in place to make sure that if you're just remotely cautious, you won't get absolutely obliterated every single time you exit your hanger. People don't want a no man's land PvP experience where there's no way to safeguard your 300 hour loot treasury
When I tried EVE I had a pretty cool experience. Warped to an area apparently run by some group. Missed their warning to turn around so they obliterated me. 15 minutes later I got a message apologizing for killing me when they noticed I was new, told me it still was a restricted area and to be careful in the future. Then gave me a bunch of credits to set myself back up. Triple the price of the ship they blew up.
@UCB5o2yJOa0-UlIqmzwoF7nQ I'm not arguing against the point. I agree with it actually. But I'm saying that even in a game as hardcore as EvE, what you've explained happens less often if you're wanting to be cautious. You know what you're getting yourself into when you enter certain areas, but even so, there's systems in place to help against total obliteration every. Single. Time. This is what rust would be like if were a MMO or the old version of New World.
@@arrogantbandit1 this happens honestly more often than not. EvE players aren't you typical hardcore Pvprs. Most of the community actually has honor because there's reward in it.
In Ark: Survival Evolved, the PvP has dudes min/maxed to be PvPers with insane movement speed and Melee damage. You're out gathering some stuff and in a split second you're getting bonked on the head, knocked out, stripped clean, and killed for free.
@@joshthehomesteader229 yeah you need to have a solid tribe to be able to not only be in to defend but to be able to rebuild because everyone will be wiped eventually. Arks real problems r meshing and ddos so I hope ark 2 can fix the fundamentals there
@@stikdude22 yeah the meshing and ddos were a bitch. I still like the game messing around on single player or private servers but all the BS on official servers just killed it for me and pretty much my whole tribe.
Your only chance in ark is talk to mega tribes and associates. Id some times let bobs build on my servers and even defend them when griefed. But not many mega leaders are/were like me lol
@@tiraud105 our tribe associated with the space cowboys on our servers they were pretty chill, at least the reps we dealt with on our servers, but even being allied with a mega tribe didnt save us from meshers. And taking or moving to servers was broken with all the foundation spamming or spikes at all the spawn points.
It's good that EVE keeps coming up in this conversation because if you look into EVE's history it really is the perfect microchasm of the attitudes of elitists vs casuals in a full loot PVP game. In the early times of the game what mattered was having the biggest and best ships with the best weapons and equipment. But then people started to realize that if they just had superior numbers they could just keep throwing wave after wave of their guys at the enemy and, because their low level equipment was cheaper and easier to produce than the big guys, they eventually took them down. That's why it's the Goon SWARM and it identifies with the bee so much. If you want PVP to succeed in a full loot game, then it needs to be on such a scale and with such logistic complexity that the PVPers NEED the PVE players to do things like handle the logisitics or farm for materials to fuel the war effort. You don't necessarily need them to participate in the PVP, you need them to SUPPORT the PVP. It seems like NW has good systems in place to encourage this type of gameplay but it remains to be seen how it will all pan out.
I agree with you on your point but what EvE has that NW doesn't is consumption. Everything that is produced in EvE is destroyed and that creates a cycle. It would be pretty much impossible to get the NW players to accept gear that is destroyed permanently via any method. Maybe if that was a design element implemented prior to release but now? It wouldn't fly. I'll skip getting into a rant about the other aspects of EvE that I have "feelings" over.
Good input with pve sourcing the pvp.. Or what ever system that helps pvp'ers to keep hardcore without much of a pain by losing their shit. Rly like it thx
Yeah I think the same. Also "Albion Online" is a perfect example of a working PvP game that is almost good balannced. If New World would just have been a 3rd Person Albion Online it would have been perfect. Instead it does almost everything bad in direct comparison. e.g. in Albion Online even a small group can dominate against a bigger group or as solo player you can mostly get away from a horde of players etc. Stuff in New World do not work at all but should.
I remember when I played PlanetSide 2 (online FPS with many hundreds split in three factions that fight for control of areas over a large map) I always joined the faction that was in the worst possible position. It was fun holding back sieges against the other two factions and using choke points to defend from attackers because there were 3-4 times more enemies than allies in a specific base/control point.
Not sure if you have played recently, but they added a new faction you can play as called the NSO. You are basically a robot that does exactly what you described: join the faction that has the least pop on a given continent. Would recommend checking it out again, especially during the summer event!
PS2 is not an MMO tho, yea you got your upgrades and weapons to level up and equip but for the most part new players are not in a tremendous disadvantage when joining a fight and you dont lose anything once you die. PS2 works like a bigger Battlefield match with some extra added strategy first and foremost.
@@mr.serperior7002 straight men tend to get weird around other men that happen to be sexy. They're scared that merely noticing a sexually appealing man, that might mean they're gay. Silly hets. 🤭
@@bronntoise Can't tell if you're bring serious or not. That wasn't my intention. It's just an observation based on decades of experience with hetero bros. 😆
Asmon spoke the truth about hardcore PVP players not being good mechanically. Those games typically attract players who couldn't make it mechanically to play competitive games yet wanted a slice of that PVP experience by claiming they "got gud". Fighting games are where the real hardcore PVP players gather and that's where the glorious battle on top of mountainside that Asmon spoke about took place
There are very few players that want to invest time in a true PvP game. Arena shooters have pretty much died out for example. You wanted to play Q3A and have fun? The first couple of dozen hours in that game will just consist of you get getting absolutely curb stomped.
I feel like runescape did full loot PVP well. It was only in specific zones. There was also mini games like capture the flag where when you die you just respawn, no item loss.
I played those lol. I guarantee you players didn't play Soul Wars, Fist of Guthix, Stealing Creation, Castle Wars, Bounty Hunter just for PvP. That's barely true. Those games were popular because the rewards were fuckin amazing. Remove the rewards shop and everyone stops playing. Heck even in Duel Arena, people and scammers didn't play for pure PvP. They did it to get your shit or to bet. You had people cheesing the combat mechanics or changing the duel settings without the opponent noticing in order to steal your stuff with the least amount of fighting
@@RRapierre this is completely untrue. Clan Wars was more popular then all of those game modes and there was zero rewards. If you were a real RS player you’d never say castle wars rewards were good lmao
The problem is time sink. Many MMO's don't give you the enjoyable experience unless you devote time in front of a PC in your home with internet. Compare that to a simple 23 minute hulu show or 45 minute series. The great thing about WoW debut was that progress in its quest system was something you could do fairly quickly.
I loved Valheim, but after having to do some much time wasting from sailing back with minerals or running back when dying etc etc. i just ended up using the fly cheat to move around instead of sailing. and then after hitting the plains i just kinda realized that if i am so eager to cheat for time then i might as well not play it lol.
I found I was logging into a second world so when I logged back into my main world I was back at base. So I didn't have to go back everytime. Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. It made the game more playable as a solo or co op. That game is really designed to be played by a village of players really.
The first time is fun, I loved sailing with my friends and even shuttling ore back and forth, but after out 2nd/3rd "World" we downloaded a mod that lets you travel in portals with Ores lol. Wonderful immersive experience the first time, but afterwards its okay to mod it.
For as out of place as that quote originally was, it's become one of my favorite quotes. Another thing to go along with that is Junior game designers who try and make their game as realistic as possible which basically makes it super unfun
It really could be fun having a game with the danger of losing all your stuff, but there's never enough consequence on the part of the killers/thieves to make it have a believable, engaging end result. Or even anything short of tedious and mind rottingly boring. Idk if it's possible with these kinds of games, so I think you're right.
You made a great point about, “gamers feeling like they wasted their time” I think this is why osrs does so well. Everything is always relevant but power creep becomes an issue.
I used to be ganked at the begining when i started to play Albion. I got angry a lot of times and left for some days and come back. After some time i start to learn how to gank and i killed and get killed a lot of times. Gank is a part of the full loot game. The "spicy" and the adrenaline of being ganked while you are doing some content or even transporting gives a lot of adrenaline when you are playing. I tried others MMO after i played Albion (1st time i played a full loot pvp game) and i just cant anymore! Doing PVP without get the others gear just feel boring, you almost fall asleep. The adrenaline that gives you is what makes this type of game a lot addictive.
turn on UA-cam : asmongold reacts to new mmos. turn on tv : asmongold reacts to news. turn on window : asmongold reacts to nature. opens fridge : asmongold reacts why are you eating trash.
Full loot is fine if they have a high security and low security area. High security missions might involve stepping briefly into low security, with a warning for the player. They might learn how to evade enemy players that way. Eve online handled it pretty well. If it were medieval game, you might spec stealth and vision skills or get a fast horse whatever, in order to evade danger.
Don't mind grabbing gear in Valheim. It is the skill deprogression that was killer, because one mistake would remove hours of progression. I wouldn't even mind it if it was for the current weapon I was using, but losing mining/tree cutting progression, sneak, and other things that take a lot of time to level became exhausting if you didn't just game every battle.
Losing 10% of all your built up stats certainly hurts when you're at 70 points in stuff compared to being only 10 points in stuff. It's a little silly when the more careful you are the more punishing the game is to you dying.
@@rahn45 The problem is that people spend too much time worrying about not dying instead of spending it on focusing their efforts not to die. Just learn from your mistakes and think less about how the system works underneath.
I believe there is a mod that fixes that. To me the skill loss really killed pvp on the multiplayer server I play on. We had great fun with duels and pvp-tournaments but players would not attend anymore because of skill loss...
All this is very true. One member in my clan across several games played for the sole purpose of “Trauma”. it didn’t matter if he got the loot or if he died, as long as the other person lost something valuable, died, or became pissed off.
I like the section where asmon talks about Rust in relation to these FFA full-loot MMOs. Crafting survival games, whether it's rust, arc, or even Minecraft, have what these people are looking for by default, but if you log onto any number of open servers, you'll find so many anti-griefing measures that eliminate these mechanics. 1 out of ten servers will allow something like total anarchy. I dont think there is dedicated development of PVP centric MMOs that could develop answers to the problems of griefing in these PVP style games. Answers that aren't simply removing the style of gameplay these PVPers are looking for or just nullifying the point of that style of gameplay.
The greifing has to be embraced to the extent that the more you grief the easier it becomes to get griefed. Almost all games go the other direction trying to suppress grieifng that the meta becomes using specific griefs/exploits and shuts down new players who cannot access the same power level of grief.
I remember my first MMO. It was Ultima Online, way back at the beginning. I was a brand new first-level character. I had a sword and no armor, just newbie clothes, and I walked a few steps out of the gate and was ganked by four players who were farming newbs brand new characters for the 1 gold or whatever you get to start out with. That sucked. And they did that to so many brand new players. After a while, their bags got full so they just threw the stuff all over the road, as all they wanted was the gold. I wonder how many quit the game without even trying it that day.
I remember being in a guild where we would kill people and then resurrect them under the condition of locking their items and porting them to our abse area to go farm trees and shit for us. We'd keep them prisoner and wouldn't return the items until they farmed a certain amount of resources for us.
I was one of those new players. I quit the game instantly. The following year, EverQuest came out. I made friends in game, adventures, took on vampire lords, and then slayed some dragons. And I enjoyed it. Because nobody made it their goal in life to ruin my time and effort.
@@vissermatt1058 If I was that "prisoner," I'd just delete my character and make a new one. If same thing happens again, then I'll quit. Hardcore PVP MMOs really bring out the worst of people huh
@@nulltheworm I made some friends in Ultima Online but after a few months, we all moved to Everquest. UO was so toxic that, for all its faults, Everquest was like a breath of fresh air. I stuck with Everquest until WoW came out.
I came back to this video specifically because now that NW has been out for 5 months ish, we can see how Josh was absolutely correct. The player base has dropped significantly. Yes lots of that is due to bugs and poor game performance, however on my server, the player base itself is struggling to even get along within the factions. There is infighting and constant bickering. Add in new twitch streamers looking to build viewers based on conflict, and it's pretty much a toxic shit show, complete with, "(faction) is just the worst and we need to teach them a lesson", narratives being promoted. It's getting rather pathetic. Josh pointed out that hardcore PvP communities are not great for sustaining a MMO forever game, and he's right. Even after the server merge, the more casual players remain unflagged, and the sweaty Eddy hardcore players get bored very fast. I like the idea behind NW, but if compelling content, (PvP related or otherwise), isn't added soon, the server populations are just going to fizzle out. Will NW survive? I have no idea. No Man Sky turned things around, so who knows what's possible.
I think comparing No Man's Sky to MMOs isn't that viable. No Man's Sky is primarily a singleplayer game and no matter how many players were playing it at any given point, your experience would be unchanged. Whether it's 10 or 100.000 players, you'll experience the game as it was meant to be. Now looking at New World, it becomes basically unplayable once the player number drops below a certain threshold. You will not be able to engage with most of the content and you'll be forced to pay for a server transfer once your server starts dying off. There's people who have had to pay multiple times because their servers keep dying. That server transfer is also a double edged sword. While it is a solution, it also makes the same problem even worse because now you're losing players even faster and a remaining player is forced to make a decision between; - Quit the game - Play on a dying server and be unable to engage with most of the content - Pay up 15 bucks to play on a (for now) populated server And the fact that New World is in such a state is pushing people away from giving it a try. It's the price of a full AAA game which many aren't willing to pay for an experience that they're not sure will last much longer. With No Man's Sky, not only was it significantly cheaper you could also "Yarr" it in order to give it a quick try and see how the game's progressed. Like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Uninstall and move on, no harm done. I really hope New World can succeed too, but the odds are stacked very high against AGS. Will they make New World their first success story or will it be another one for the large pile of failures that this studio has amassed? Who knows..
To add further to the "guy stealing your sword" thing, it's bad enough that it only takes 3 seconds for that guy and his two friends to mug it off of you, but even worse is how long it took YOU to acquire that sword through grinding in the "regular" game. If I played a game where it took me hours every day to farm this one ultra rare super sword for 5 days and one PVP fight where I got unfairly ganked by 3 guys made me lose it, you can bet your ASS I would quit forever. That's not thin skin that's absolutely shitty game design (in my personal, subjective opinion).
The thing about phone games that generates so much money is the fact that anyone can be anywhere and still play. If you were heading out of town for a vacation as long as you're not the driver you can play on the trip, on the destination and even while using the toilet.
Not to mention EVERYONE has or gets a phone in their teens, if not by the time they're an adult. These machines are basically given away for free at this point so of course games on them are more popular than games on something that only adults with steady jobs can really afford.
The problem IMO is that most of the "casuals" have real life obligations like working and earning money to feed themselves/families thus has no time to grind/practice in a game like Hard Core Full Loot MMO. And when character's strength and/or player skill is proportionate to the invested time - *which everyone has 24 hours a day equally* - these "casuals" are guarantee to get smoked against hardcore hardcore gamers/NEETs who spends their time in-game longer than them (some literally all the time except when sleeping). So they quit when they realized that any *very limited progress* they could've make will always set back to zero before it can get anywhere meaningful. This's bad for the game's long-term survivability because these casuals happens to have bigger purses than the hardcore gamers/NEETs by the simple fact that they actually have a job and can afford to spend more money. While the hardcore gamers wouldn't spend as much due to time and effort were... ahem... invested elsewhere that won't earn them enough money for that. This's also the reason why casual games like those mobile games are popular nowadays as it takes minimal time investment, so little that you can play it in-transit to and from work. Time which, allow me to emphasis again; *everyone has 24 hours a day equally*
It's much worse than that. These are "forever" games. So the person that started playing a few months (or years) before you has a few months more of 24-hour days than you. No matter how hard you play, they will always be ahead.
Idk man, Albion Online is fantastic but they have areas to PvP where you don't lose all your loot also. Oldschool RuneScape is also struggling a little right now because of the lack of PvP updates. I quit playing OSRS because all I wanted to do was PvP but to get to that point you need to grind hundreds of hours to build a decent account. The great thing about Albion as a PvP'er is that you don't have to do much PvE at all if you don't want to as the silver you earn from PvP can be used to buy Tomes which will progress your gear.
Well, for Albion online majority of people will go to the full loot PvP zone. Because the exp and drop is double compare to the safty zone. It's not even worth anytime stay in safty zone. You may be killed by others, but in long-term you get more exp and drops.
@@phantomvulpe791 A ton of players used to fight in the wilderness and PvP servers. Of course there's still people there but there's a heck of a lot less people there than they used to be. I contacted a staff member at Jagex (people who made RuneScape) to do something about the barrier to entry for PvP and gave them ideas to make it more accessible but that was like a year ago so I'm not sure we'll see those changes.
@@Anger Ye that's true but those safe zones are perfect for learning how to PvP or have fun while gaining at least some fame and silver. You can also get good PvP gear in Albion for quite cheap compared to other MMO's so it isn't as big of a deal if you do die.
@@LoadingMeerkat there's another pvp mode but it's an arena but uhhh...I never done it but that shit has some shady gambling going on there best avoid them
Well said about player's time. Whenever i feel i'm wasting my time, i get frustrated, i stop and go do something else. That's one of things that bothers me in WOW too.
yeah i sadly dropped wow after 3 months and a 5 year desire to be able to finally play it...and when im able to the game just wastes my time, i was pretty upset but oh well i got late to the party
I think many of the players that gravitate toward these kinds of games are the type that would stick around in a long-dead game (or forum, for that matter) just they can be the king of their own private molehill. They're not the most skilled players out there, but they know that if they just stick it out long enough they will gain bragging rights simply because the truly competitive-minded and talented players will move on to the next big game.
I remember trying TERA online's open PVP servers when the game launched in america. The game's classes were so poorly balanced that the most powerful class would just camp the same areas and keep killing and ambushing players who wouldn't be able to see them coming. It would just become this loop where you werent able to progress any further because these players would literally never leave that area and lots of people would just make a new character on the non-PVP servers.
Hardcore PvP MMORPG seems interesting at first glance, but the reality is that the inflow of new users is stopped and the game is ruined as existing users frequently slaughter new users. Age of Conan was like this.
My issue with PvP is time. To be good you have to put in the time and practice. But if I only have few hours per week I will never catch up to someone who has 10+ hours per day of practice. Nor do I want to spend months of spare time playing a game just to be ok (i.e. still routinely spanked). Enjoy your PvP, but fun trumps frustration every time.
My most funny take is that most people calling for PvP games claim they want it to be skill based yet most so called MMO or Open world RPGs PvP games skill has 0 impact and it's just all.about your numbers even the ones they try to point to as oh we wish it was like this
"when a game makes players feel free they're wasting their time, that's when they quit" PoE did this with the latest round of nerfs and I gotta tell ya, I'm loving my time in FFXIV.
@@roccoheat8662 you realize combat isnt the only thing in FFXIV? Lmao most people's goal is to hit max then collect, then glamour. 80 in all classes and 80 in all DoL/DoH, then do all raids, then get all minions and mounts, then glamour yourself, then maybe glamour your house. Just look at Asmongold himself, he's a man who lives for his mount collection. He's the guy who collects all of a Rust server's horses and shows his collection to xqc. Asmongold watched a video on stream about FFXIV player hierarchy, Idk what it's called but it's on his channel. Players who play for the combat were near the bottom of the pyramid, and players at the top were the ones who spend real money to glamour everything because they did everything, and splurge on house parties in their end-game crafting guild/FC. MMOs aren't all about PvP, anyone who thinks that will always be disappointed. Also, PoE is almost nothing like WoW, RS, ESO, or FFXIV. PoE and Diablo are ARPG, where combat is 90% of the content on 8 abilities lmao. Of course people who just want to fight play ARPGs, FPS, Battle Royales, MOBAs, etc. People forget that the latter half of MMORPG is RPG, and if combat-only players shit on other players who just want to RP as a fisherman quartermastering for his questing guild, then they're pathetic. Let them fish
@@masterpain7742 Lmao fucker WoW barely even have housing. FFXIV has a different endgame than WoW. Endgame in FFXIV is completionist house with max mounts and minions and all glamours for armor and house. You can't complete the game without completing your house because a lot of items for your house are from extreme loot pools. Endgame in FFXIV is not raiding. Fuck off
Hardcore PVP is popular, but just not in an MMO style game. Warzone, Fornite, or any battle royale style game is hugely popular, but the items you lose don't take a long time to get back. You can simply hop into another game, gear up and fight other player very quickly.
I remember playing Ultima Online when i was a child and if u die and lose all ur gear, u can easily buy basic gear to go pvp again, farming the best was not mandatory to enjoy pvp, and the people wearing the best looking gear and going pvp with that was like gods of the servers. The success of UO (imo) is that if u were a good player u can win pvp with cheap gear against a bad player with full farmed gear.
@@thevoxdeus That is a game design problem. It can be fixed and was in many private servers. It was also done great in other games. The issue is that many people seem to think it is impossible
@@thevoxdeus The failure of UO was the release of Trammel. Then suddenly there was no reason to go to Felucia when you could just grind dragons in Destard safely.
@@randomanon8408 People have written huge essay length blog posts and made hours long videos about it. The point I am making is that people share an opinion without doing any research or playing any of these type of games which were good. There are so many specif things needed to solve these issues, new player protection, incentives for legacy players to teach and guide new players, lots of horizontal progression, gear that doesn't give massive advantage, fun fluff items crafting and quests that allow mmo progression without building excessive pvp power creep, territorial capture/claim/buildup/loss/war/siege mechanics that are balanced well to incentivize an active community, and so much more.
The only bad experience I had in a hardcore pvp mmo was Albion online when there was literally a horde of BR's waiting to gank me in a red zone, I quit that shit pretty fast.
Albion is awesome. Never played hardcore PvP, but when they released Faction Warfare and i was in Thetford we rose from last place to first in one season because we came together, made a discord (no other faction had one, i asked) and had help from RAQ. It was an awesome game experience.
on tibia, a whole guild transfers their alts and some main characters to a server dominated by other guild only to wipe that guild from the server on a war and claim the server, it usually costs U$20.000 to do the whole transfer services and powerleveling supplies until the guild take the server when the guild dominates the server, they start charging the guildless players real money in order to keep leveling their characters, and only the dominant guild players are able to share the best places in game to make money to buy tibia coins and sell in real life as a neutral guildless you cannot join on world bosses, cannot do quests without paying, and check this, you have to pay to the guild if you want to livestream on "their" server
How do they enforce that though? I mean what can they do if I decided to do a world boss or stream the game? I’ve never played the game so I don’t know how it’s possible to force people to pay real money. Let me know!
Its a open world, if they see you there you are dead, if you dont do allí they said you are constantly in target like a gang and cannot do anything... Hunt leveling quest nothing, when you llave protección zone you are dead xd
Somewhat similar in Old School RuneScape wilderness pvp clans had Venezuelan gold farmers pay for "protection" at the revenant dungeon. But eventually they got fed up with their "protectors" and starting taking over servers and killing anyone from the pvp clans. The things you do when you need to play to eat.
“I hate when people bring in facts.” I love based sarcastic Asmon. (“You mean, Asmon?”) When the purpose of a game is to get others to quit, you get a majority of toxicity in a community. A Tolkien-esk realm mmorpg with that level of toxicity requires a special type of degenerate tribalism for which the world might not be ready to tolerate.
I can't get on board with games that combine PvE progression with always-on-PvP. Opting into PvP is akin to participating in a sport: everyone is focused on the (somewhat fair) competition and takes time out of their lives to participate. Getting jumped while trying to progress in PvE is like walking down the street to work and having some rando throw a brick at your head. There's nothing desirable in the experience for you and the vast majority of people have no desire to start preemptively chucking bricks at people themselves and will choose to walk a different route next time instead. But hey, everyone needs to play what they like. I'll certainly spend my money on stuff that gives a sense of progression or sportsmanship.
Yes, i have been plaing rust for some time and a couple of years back when You found a naked and You were naked You could be like "ey, do You wanna be a team?" But now it's intant agresión, it's preventive agresión(?)
As a eve online player I love the full sandbox game and that most everything is player built and when it can all be destroyed it really makes you join with others for safety as well as taking down the larger stronger player. But you are correct it takes a type of player base. But I love the fact that for the most part I'm not "safe" when playing.
i think thats what people are missing, some people in eve love the full on hardcore pvp. While some people want to spend most of the time playing space trucker. Or space industrialist. and just save up for that pvp encounter. I do love the mantra of only fly what you can afford to loose. Which eve does give players a chance to do so. You are only loosing that one ship on that encounter. You still have your saved up resource and other ships on low sec space. Loose that frigate? no problem, just go back to mining or pve to get it back.
I always play Hardcore whenever I play Diablo games, but the moment I die, after however many weeks or months, I quit. I return every now and then, because I enjoy the thrill, but losing all your progress is just too much of a gut punch.
We had this discussions years ago on private Ultima Online servers. It was always the cycle: new server -> a lot of players -> players are getting strong enough to kill other players -> retention because couple "reds" are killing newbies and role playing players -> new server
It can spiral down very quickly. I still remember a mmo I played where you need to do this chain to unlock your special ability. Of course, this also is an open pvp zone and people can kill you the moment you load into the area. It got really old really fast when you load in to see 4 people instantly attacking you.
same i love pvp in mmos but the mmo design isnt really that good for pvp, look at current wow, you have to grind weeks or months to play something in legion all you had to do was just queue and play your char. Eve? big ships kill you first sight. runescape? dude has 1000 consumables. Albion? zergy af. Gw2 is the only fun one nowdays and even FFXIV you can just hop on nowadays and be happy.
It's instance based, not open world. That's why it works. When tarkov becomes fully open world map-to-map travel, we'll see how the player base stands when 90% of people are just going to be camping extracts.
@@uWAVES I actually think its going to continue to be instance based maps because i don't think they will get rid of the timers of the instances. you will just reach another area and have to wait for more people to load into that map. .. god map to map travel is gonna be a cluster fuck when they implement it. they might have to redo insurance so when you die you don't fucking cry after the next day
Idea - Faction Proportionate Balancing, aka Conservation of Ninjutsu more players in a faction on a server, reduced xp/loot/"honor" ratio; past X faction population ratio, ratio reduction affects combat or something
I turn 28 in a few months. Welder full time. And art hobbies on the side. I still play video games. I havent lately because i havent found a game worth playing. If i play i want to put hours into it. Have a reason to play every day. I thought i found that in conan exiles but i had way to many drama issues that prevents me from returning. (Example. I hate wipe servers. I join a server and ask if they wipe at all before i grind a bunch. They said no they dont wipe. So i grind for 2-3 days for alot of shit. Only to wake up to a discord message saying they are wiping. I wrote a 2 paragraph post on how that is misleading and i was pissed off cause im losing all of that work I did. After saying they dont wipe. i got banned for bein"toxic" fuckers)
Nah. You're too poor. If you were rich and didn't have to work anymore, you would definitely still be playing. Unless you find no more enjoyment in games which is a different story.
@@sjwoo13 i dont think that has anything to do with it. Some people are poor and all they do is play games. Some are so rich they dont need to work. But you have some who CHOOSE to do other things then video games. Then they complain they cant or dont have time. Its like. Dude. Make time. There are many people who have full time jobs and family and still mythic raid in wow. The only exception i think is graveyard shift. Unless its part time. When i part time graveyard it was amazing. I stayed up all night on my days off cause my nights were my days. So i could raid all night till 9 am then sleep till 7 pm and go to work
Asheron’s Call, back around 2000, got this balance right. Full loot PvP was available, on its own dedicated server. The other servers would allow you to do it as well but it was a higher level quest and a conscious choice and one that was rarely taken.
@@markjordan7800 Well that game is unique in it's own time being an EARLY MMO and it really was the wild west. Having Darktide was FANTASTIC because everyone who wanted that style of the game, went there. So it catered to both the casual player base AND the hardcore PVP player base, albeit probably at random. That game had a TON of amazing ideas that never got fully fleshed out, or were flat ignored going forward like Real Time Line of Sight. For instance, if I get a spell off, and you took 2 steps sideways, I would miss and do 0 damage. But movement was a major factor in how that games combat worked, and it was NOT super complex or highly varied in terms of abilities. Movement was there that complexity lied and came about by accident, again because of the era it came from. I would not call it the best game, or even having the best ideas, but there was some serious untapped potential that got ignored, mostly because this thing called World of Warcraft came out and delivered an all new blueprint to how an MMO functions.
Thank you Asmon for your commentary on this because this has been a problem my gaming friends have noticed over time; when they quit, I'm less motivated to progress in whatever we're playing because of that, which causes me to jump games and essentially waste time. Such as Valheim or WoW Shadowlands for example , where the progression gets a little bit grindy. It's a fools wish to think i could ever complete worthwhile, valuable content for my character without friends understanding I'm new or without friends playing because they know the games have become these monopolies for poor game design built on microtransactions. Where mobile games seem to differ is they allow you a streamlined path that is much more acheiveable over time but requires an even harder grind - and much pricier mtx cost on the player if they want to get further faster. Money grabs and weird design. It's why I enjoy story driven games where it's literally up to me and the world challenges the game delivers to ultimately conquer the game and make the progression in a realistic fashion; like dark souls- where, once I'm good, I can enter PVP and be relatively on par in a fight even if I'm casual
if you ever consider single player retro metroidvania, play Timespinner on Hard+ difficulty, game isnt the most amazing combat wise but story is super well done with the progression, i payed the equivallent of 2 dollars in my country for it (10 R$ BRL) its just super worth it, 12 hour playtrough
13:15 I think this is one of the biggest issues with MMO's Their controls/combat are still stuck in this awkward early 2000 configuration. Never really changed that much. The only MMO's I know that really tried to innovate that are GW2 and Black Dessert.
The problem with people who want this is that they imagine a hardcore PvP experience where they can dominate like, 80% or more of players, either because they’re not trying to PvP or they’re much lower level. In a game that draws those people and has hardcore no flagging PvP, especially if it’s centrally focused on it, those players who aren’t good just aren’t going to play it. So you’re really only going to be playing mostly similarly skilled players and that’s not as fun to a lot of them as trolling low level and bad players.
It's 100% why MOBA smurfing is a thing. You don't FEEL like you are in the top 10% of skilled players if you only play people of your own rank, and it just ruins it for everyone else involved when you are out of place in the ranking.
Honestly every single hardcore pvp game of any genre that involves loot and losing loot has a tough time, not just games like WoW and stuff. Games like escape from tarkov even have a tough time keeping new players around, especially if they join during a mid wipe. You will get shit on consistently and you just have to grind and learn or you’ll always get shit on. The problem I have with games like rust is the fact that if you’re new no one wants to play with you cause your not good, you never get the change to get good just because betas wanna sit on the spawn beach and murder you over and over until you leave, if you do make it out you’ll just be ganked, or harassed until you leave, there’s no sustainability in games like these, the only reason that lasts is because of frequent server wipes, which is honestly what I think new world needs, a wipe that takes away all territory’s from players and makes you start over on regaining control. Keep gear keep level just lose the areas you control, that way it isn’t on faction just destroying all others, I’ve been on servers like that and all it does is turn the game into pve only because no one wants to fight a group that outnumbers 18 to 1
I’ve thought about a “soul-chain” mechanic that could help with games like these. High-level mythical items farmed in a dungeon or PVE instance gets tethered to your players soul and can’t be used by any other player and can easily be tracked down within the world.
@@zuterwer1835 I'm trying to think of a system where all of the other loot is, well lootable. And the only thing that stays with you is something you had to skillfully attain not craft or just find in the open world. It's just a hard system to try and balance for casual vs. hardcore players. As Asmon says the reason the games die is because the casuals are stepped on and pushed out. There's nothing wrong with playing that way obviously but this is the crux of game design, how to keep the most people happy.
I played EQ under those rules.... People didn't leave planes of power until LDoN even then it was LFG pop you in and pop you back to PoP... I only killed 2 people out in the wild one was a gold seller that had 2mill plat on him and the buyer that had 3 plat on him... After that I never left PoP without my pocket Druid following me.
I’m so so sad Last Oasis died like this. It felt like it had one of the most unique game mechanics ever and could of grown into a juggernaut. It started off with 60k players, now it’s just 300. I hope that a last oasis 2 comes out that isn’t full PVP or that a new dev makes a game with massive walkers that you could build homes on, the stability of combat on a mech going 20MPH while people are boarding you etc. Man, I miss that feeling.
And now it has private servers. Which is something it should've had to begin with. Darkside is about to unleash its private server of LO. So don't be afraid to look it up.
MMOs need to be designed with seasonal resets in mind especially hard core pvp mmos. I think the biggest issue is gaps in progression between newer and older players with the only breaks given to causal players being new expansion releases or paying to bypass progression altogether.
I thought Deadman Mode from Old School Runescape was enough of a lesson on the subject, lol. If you're a high level player you start farming mid level players and taking their shit. Mid level players bully the low level players. It was actually impossible for me to do something cause everyone and their mother would dds spec you out at level 15 and rebuilding felt impossible. You'd lose 5000g of progress, then 3000g, then 1000g, finally after losing 500g of progress you get frustrated and dip. DMM was very unkind to player retention and because you have less stuff the learning curve isn't there it's either don't die the first time or every other death will be you getting bullied with impunity.
"If more people play horde, then more people play horde." You mean to tell me that other people do not base the choice of their faction in it's lore and aesthetic?
They probably do but a lot of times they also want to play and enjoy the game, and battling a fight in open world 1 vs 20 idiots that mull you down, is not. I went horde because 1- thought it was cooler 2- all my friends were there. (as a new player)
I did based it on lore and aesthetics so I played HORDE, but then the horde got better racials the assholes came over from the Alliance and ruined the vibe by constantly shit talking everyone, selling boosting services, being sexist to female players in the horde and creating guild drama while trying to snatch good players from already existing horde guilds.
On RP server they do. On PVP server, people pick which ever faction that is dominant, often people have account with different faction just so they can switch around as well as spying on opposing faction just so they can have the upper hand. In other word, most people don't want a fair, proper PVP, they want as much odds stacked on their side possible, which usually leads to ganking and griefing in an open PVP environment.
I originally started out as Alliance, because NE were my favorite race in WC3. Absolutely miserable anywhere around Teldrassil (rip) so I would go all the way to Westphal since it was usually defended a bit by higher lvls, all the alliance on my server seemed to stay only at stormwind. It wasn't very long before I had a Taur shaman and a troll hunter lol. Even just the nature of ally players it is like 50-50 they will attack even if they see you. I had the same experience as others with ridiculous groups of horde chasing my low level druid around even waiting if I went to go sit in Deadmines it was often annoying. I didn't play anymore alliance until tbc when I could make a Draenei shaman and he was just for fun really, if the race could have joined horde I would have preferred it.
I am a casual player, and here's what I'd like to see in a PvP MMO. This idea is more like a PvP game mode within an existing MMO than a full MMO itself, but one I think would be a lot of fun. As a casual player, you craft or grind gear in the traditional manner, and then "enter" your gear into a gladitorial arena. This arena could be something small, or a large map a-la battle royales. This arena is littered with gear for players to pick up, some being base gear if there isn't enough gear entries from casual players, while other gear being the actual items that casual viewers have entered into the match. As the game starts, PvP players collect gear and eventually clash over the gear they've collected. The PvE players spectate this match, along with a tracker for the item they've entered. Such as being notified when your item is being used or changes hands. As for rewards, PvP players earn a traditonal PvP currency to be spent on exclusive rewards, while PvE players also earn a reward depending on how well the player(s) with their item did. Did the PvP player get into the top 3? Bigger reward for the PvP player. Did the PvE player's item make it to the top 3? Bigger reward for the PvE player. On top of this, PvE players get a bonus based on the worth of the item they gambled, in case it is used but doesn't score very high. And PvP players have a chance to keep one of the items they won in the game, even if it is an item generated by the game and not made by a player. Items that are never picked up are returned to the PvE player. This could also be a good way for PvE players to earn PvP rewards, albeit at a slower rate than actual PvPers. When PvP players lose a really good item, it's a blow, but the PvE player is taking part of the brunt of that loss. They put in the time to grind it, but they are still getting a reward based on the value of the item even if they lose. PvP players may come across a really rare item and lose the chance to earn it, but they didn't have to put hours into getting it. When I imagine myself as a casual PvE player in a PvP MMO, my ideal that I always imagine is being a supporter, a crafter who helps the people doing the fighting. Building and repairing structures, a field medic, or a gear crafter or cook. In this example I focused on Arena or Battle Royale style matches, but perhaps it could also be used in mass seige combat as well? If a PvE player wanted a bit more excitement, but still not fight directly, perhaps they could enter THEMSELVES into the arena as specialized non-combatants that the PvP fighters protect while they build up a defensive base and speed-grind items for healing and defense.
So Old School Runescape, the pvp system & clans do the most fucked up shit you can think of, also illegal, just to win and make the competition join them or quit.
Someone else's comment brought up EVE. Their point was you need PvE "Logistical" people to support the PvPers. You dont want the PvPers to always attack and steal from the Logistical people. It needs some form of harmony. Foxhole is a great game. I would enjoy it if it was first person. I love Planetside 2 but I need a foxhole planetside hybrid
PvP MMOs are probably the worst MMOs out there. If a MMO company advertises a MMO to me and the first thing I hear is PvP-focused, I lose all interest immediately.
@@remyd8767 Yeah, I don't like MMOs that are raid-focused too and it's mainly because that, usually, they make it to where you're forced to do raids to get gear since the gear you can get doing normal stuff is basically garbage in comparison.
"why would i want to spend money on a game on a phone?" ask that question again when you work a 8-6 job and your daily commute is 2+ hours on a train, and then you may have obligations at home and you have to be somewhat mobile. thus all you have is your phone.
At that point why play games at all? I worked a job like that for 3 years, I quit gaming entirely during that time, because there was no way to do it that was worth bothering with. Spent my money on ebooks instead. Only got back into gaming when I changed jobs.
@@AdmiralWalrus Because to many people, it's a much more satisfying feeling to see your party growing stronger in some gacha game than to see the amount of books you have finished reading. I've posed the same question to my friend when he worked at 10-10 shift at Popeyes for a year, the simple answer is, "I don't want to fucking read books".
@@melikechoc0 I get the appeal of gacha to an extent (Shit, I make youtube videos about a gacha game myself). I just can't imagine it as a "diet" or "bite-sized" alternative to traditional gaming. It's always felt like an entirely different sort of thing.
@@juz882010 Imagine saying something like this when you're an idiot who would rather carry a laptop around with them to game on than just use something that fits in your pocket.
I think it would be cool as hell if there were a wildy in New World with a few nice resource spawns deep in the zone. Similarly balanced to OSRS where you don't feel like you have to farm there, but the incentive exists for adventurous people willing to take a risk. You also keep players that are interested in full loot pvp happy and able to find fights.
These games remove the social contract that creates a functional society. That is the point. Philosopher Thomas Hobbes described what a world like this would be "which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Why would this be fun?
There was this korean mmo called rf online that did the pvp very well. It was small but it's a 3 way against races, so even if you're a new guy, you have a 3rd of the player ase to defend you in those pk zones.
The dichotomy between casual players and hardcore PVP types reminds me a lot of the Jedi compared to the Sith. Sure the Sith might be more powerful, but they kill each other off with infighting and can rarely exist in large quantities. Meanwhile, the Jedi thrive in their hippy temples. Clearly the answer here is a middle ground of sorts. A game to satisfy the "Mace Windus" of the world. People who take a bite out of both kinds of play.
I think the best answer that currently exists in that category is the rather rare "war MMO" like the Planetside series or the more recent Foxhole. Each character is part of a dev-created faction and therefore has at least some fraction of the playerbase as nominal allies, gear is obtained from armories instead of being drops that can be looted from you so there's no worry about losing stuff you grinded for, and there's generally some sort of "combined arms" gameplay that makes it so no player can completely dominate all comers at once. Mind, none of the games I mentioned get everything perfect (clan gameplay and politics often come to dominate the meta of such games, discouraging players who prefer a more solitary, noncommital playstyle; stats tracking can lead to players treating it as a giant team deathmatch and compete with their allies to score the most kills or best KDR; any resource-based gameplay often becomes the subject of various sorts of griefing), but currently they seem to be the best option for someone like me who likes PvP but not ganking (on either end).
I think haardcore full loot makes sense in sessions. You get into an arena, there you can use all you get,, and after that you get some ingame currency for example based on how long you survived and which items you had at the end of that session. And that you can use to get better in the rest of the Game, which is mostly pve. Like honor in WoW, just with earning, crafting and looting beeing implemented in the BG.
Albion evolved in a way to cater for hardcore players, but it also allow for casuals to play it too. Is it take way more time to progress?....yes. Limits the kind of content you can do in the game?...yes. But you can safelly progress in the game without being obliterated. The full loot mechanics on Albion works like a stock market irl, you choose if you want to risk dieing and losing everything in the hope to make a huge and fast profit, but the choice is with you.
29:08 I recognize on some level, a game is always going to be there to relax and waste time, but I don't like it when a game makes me feel like it's going out of its way to waste my time and effort.
I came from classic Runescape, and classic WoW, and it's super unfortunate that all these games are going super casual or pay to win. People always say "I don't have time for anything other than casual". Well people had no problem finding time for classic RS or WoW, and there are thousands of super casual games. It's hard to play MMOs now where adventuring, and finding groups in the wild is no longer there. Sitting in cap waiting for a queue isn't MMORPG IMO. It was cool having open world PVP, and meeting randoms on a quest to group with to kill an elite. No longer a thing.
WoW and RS released in an era where the MMO genre was still young, and new genres attract young players with a lot of free time. This remains true pretty much forever - most gamers willing to try new games will be younger - but the community as a whole does still age. The initial wave of players is still around, even as they slowly become a minority, and they want to keep experiencing the highs of the games they played as a teen or in college even as life gets in the way. That's why this attitude inevitably comes up over time in any game community that's been around for more than 5 years or so.
@@66maybe66 that the playerbase of early WoW was comprised entirely of teens is nothing short of a myth, in fact the average player age back then wasn't unlike now.
Because it's easier to have a phone and more convenient than building a gaming PC. That's why mobile games makes more money. Almost every single person on Earth already have smart phones.
I've bought Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights and Final Fantasy IV and Tactics (plus few Visual Novels) and I must say that turnbased JRPG's and VN's can be good on phones, you can play it quite comfortably, but anything that requires quick reaction and precision is just annoying to play. It's wierd that there is not that many popular indie games made in RPG Maker or RenPy.
I was really in to eve online until I woke up from a nightmare about having forgotten to fuel a Starbase causing a loss of control of a system. That was my breaking point. I'd made and lost billions of isk in ships over and over, including dreadnoughts (titans were actually rare back then an alliance might have had 1 maybe 2) advanced battleships several tech 3 cruisers and countless HACs. I'd come to terms with the fact that every thing in eve is transient because if you get target called you're gonna die. The only thing that was not transient was control of space. Haven't touched it since.
HS/LS stations for safekeeping? Bring to null/J-space shit you need? And if your corporation wanted you to move all your shit to them, they are fucking idiots.
*As someone who has Thousand of hours in both Games, i can say that ARK is by far the best Survival game out there, just don't join official servers and you're fine and not to mention PVE is actually a main focus of the game unlike RUST, so ARK has a Story and a Narrative that you can follow in both Online with ur friends and Offline by urself which appeals to both casuals and hardcore players.* Not to mention you can customize the setting to be less grindy in SP mode and unofficial servers.
@@jorgemiguel2641 Conan is good, i have 2k hours in Conan but it lacks the features and content ARK has. Conan has been abandoned with their halfass dlc, Funcom is just spamming "cosmetic" dlcs left and right and now currently working on a new game called DUNE
@@aaronastra7938 Personally my issue with Conan is that it's too easy to spend dozens of hours making a base only for someone to completely level everything with a few explosive jars. It's unbalanced in that it never pays off to build good defenses. It's why I play on a private server where we've banned explosives, only way to break into a base is through a trebuchet siege. Puts emphasis on defense that way. Other things could be better I agree, good thing mods correct a lot of it. One thing I dislike is how grindy these types of games get in terms of resources, you can have an army of thralls and still be the one mining. Id rather go the Satisfactory approach and set up machines(or in this case thralls) to harvest resources and automate the process.
Telvar in eso is a good example of a currency that is gained thru pvp and also risked thru pvp. An alternative to gold in a way could be used as an incentive rather then weapons and items. Telvar works with a multiplier, the more you carry on you, the more you can gain from killing an enemy.
The key takeaway from almost every PvP player is "it's fun as long as you're winning".
PvP games tend to mostly be stomp mode. Either you get stomped, or you stomp someone else. It is very hard to come by close/equal PvP.
As Asmon stated
The idea of these big epic battles taking place is cool but once you spawn into these worlds what you experience couldn't be further from that.
I played back in the days of UO when there were no such thing as pve servers and the reality is that it's just packs of pks "player killers" rampaging around looking for easy targets.
And these people went to great lengths to think of all kinds of underhanded shit to achieve it.
Of course. Most people don't want their hard work to suddenly get flushed down the drain, especially if you got jumped or out leveled. Most people can suffer a loss in a good fight, but most pvp'ers are all about griefing and I get that which is why I don't pvp.
@@leobrad2199 Yeah. If they were serious about competing for a challenge, they'd play a competitive pvp game, not an MMO
Me and my buddy who plays rust with me always say “fun is not created or destroyed only transferred”
I had a friend who played Ultima Online and all his "fun stories" were just them griefing people into oblivion lol
Griefing is só fun
That sounds fun to me.
Yep . Griefing others because they were nerds in RL
@@papadwarf6762 i dont understand this logic, Getting mad because of a game is pretty nerdish tô me hahahahaha
@@marcoswillianl only for the griefer
The fact that Karens spend more money on Candy Crush than neckbeards spend on WoW sent me fucking rolling 😂
Because those Karens won't let their neckbeard husbands spend any money on "nerdy PC games" but they'll dump hundreds into getting extra striped candies.
@@JWSoul
Usually? Lul, what do you even base that on?
@@Bollibompa on every single thing that women buy ? And the supplier knows that too. Women clothes are more expensive, utility like razor or toothbrush are also more expensive. That’s why women’s jean don’t have pocket so they have to go get a fucking bag. Get a clue yet? Wake up.
@@jaytfromsaigon6206
Wake up? You have just claimed a whole bunch of things which are factually wrong. How does that support "Women are usually bigger spenders in everything"?
Utility like razor and toothbrush... Do you even think before you write?
@@Bollibompa not really, but you get what I meant since English is my third language. But the fact that you’re out here asking these questions, you’re asleep.
The issue with a system that primarily involves loot being acquired via killing other people is the idea of Loss Aversion. The human brain doesn't treat gaining something and losing something equally, so when you lose something then that loss feels 2x to 3x as bad as gaining that thing would feel good. When you're killed and someone gets your cool sword, you feel far worse than they feel good and this creates an environment where every interaction between players spawns more negativity than positivity. By and large the playerbase will experience more negative moments than positive ones, and that will cause most people to leave after enough time.
I put 2,500 hours into DayZ and can attest to this.
Made worse if said reason they lost said items was unfair.. like 5 v 1 with stuns outta the ass in WoW.. losing there feels bad.. would be even more rage inducing if you lost all your gear too.
Rust is fun as fuck, usually cuz I'm owning. But even getting raided doesn't bother me anymore. I've come to expect and accept it as part of the game.
@@IRSpankz Swap that around and imagine you aren't usually owning, but rather usually getting owned
@@reperfan4 exactly, OP missed the whole point of this video. "Losses don't mean anything to me because I bearly lose"
To me, the biggest failing of this design is that it rewards griefing, not time or skill. All fights are either ganks or a dude beating another half his level, no skill involved. You can't make a game that caters only to griefers.
It is a game design problem not a game genre problem. It has been done correctly in a few games like Darkfall. There were huge guilds with people who played together in a world where there was always friendly fire possible. So many people make these videos or posts on forums saying the genre sucks when they have literally never even played the genre enough to have a clue what they are talking about.
@@bobby45825 Dude, chill. WoW PVP has nothing to do with the video, no one here is complaining about PVP or difficult games, we're pointing out that the design proposition of this genre doesn't work. WoW is not a hardcore pvp game, you don't drop all your gear on death and the vast majority of the territory is safe from pvp. If you go to Mortal Online forums and ask around the community they'll call you a casual and tell you "go back to wow". PVP in WoW works because you fight other players for the fight, not for loot or domination. PVP is great, but it's great when it's balanced and the gameplay is good. Spawn camping, ganking and fighting low level players takes no skill and isn't fun, especially when the gameplay is click to auto attack and wait and while cycling through your skills by pressing 1, 2 and 3. Instead of arguing why you think this isn't the case, you're just assuming stuff about us and isn't presenting any actual arguments or facts, you're adding nothing to the conversation. In fact, by bringing up WoW and Dark Souls you just show that you don't even understand the discussion and the arguments, none of them have any of the features we're saying that, when together, makes an unstainable game.
You can, but it bleeds players. Having rpg time based power elements in a pvp game is tarded.
Yup, or someone using hacks and glitches like they do in Tarkov.
Indeed without griefers the games would be fine. For some reason though people decide to put all their effort into griefing even when there is nothing to be gained from it. The obvious reason is because there is nothing to lose either. Once your on top of a game like this you can generally stay there by just not fighting people fairly.
"Ark is better."
"No, Rust is better."
Me, an intellectual: "They're both shit."
i see a hell of a lot more rust youtuber videos than ark
@@aquilleswinkler5051 hate playing rust, love watching rust videos.
@@aquilleswinkler5051 I believe that's because ARK is way slower on official servers. It's that type of "wait 200h untill it gets better".
@@WodaUtlenioooonaaa It's because ARK is a statsink-based game and RUST is a skill-based hardcore PvP game.
There is no greater adversary than another human being, ergo RUST videos are more entertaining to watch.
ARK videos require a person to have a personality to entertain. RUST content entertains on its own because of its volatility.
Watch me tranquilize this dinosaur and feed it mejoberries for 8 hours or watch a group of angry 12 year olds scream racial slurs at me in VOIP while I burn down their base.
It's obvious which one is going to attract more attention.
@@gordieallen6422 that's what I said about ARK's official servers. The true fun begins on tweaked servers with different rates, on which you don't feed dinos mejoberries for 8h or modded somehow else. The thing you're describing happens just as much, but just in different places than people would, I assume, expect.
"Their goal is to take over the server and make everyone else quit the game" pretty much sums up a lot of these people I know. The end goal isn't to have a fun fight or show how much skill you have at the game, it's to own the entirety of a server and make SURE that no new players can build up to stop you. You want the bragging rights, you want the fame. Doesn't matter if you killed a dude ten levels under you with shitty gear, or outnumbered a guy ten to one. You just do it over and over until you've made such a HUGE power gap that you can be comfortably bored until the game shuts down because nobody else is playing lmfao
That was all the old school WoW PvP videos. Laintime in GM gear killing people in Greens and Blues...
You know, that is fun to some players.
...or they merge your server with one where the stats show other groups will be a good challenge to you. They have people on salaries thinking about this stuff far longer than you buddy.
South Park prophecies
The only good thing about these players is that dethroning them feels really awesome.
This played out 21 years ago. Asheron's Call had a dedicated PvP server called Darktide. When you made a new character and logged in, max level characters would be waiting to kill you and loot you of your starter gear. Then they'd camp you until you logged. The problem became this: Darktide had all predators and no prey. The server population just grew smaller and smaller, until there were just handfuls of players left.
This is not true, DT was one of the most popular servers in the game?? The server was amazing.
Not true i can vouch that i only spawn killed for 12/7 they still had another 12 hour window to get stronger :)
@@randomperson-cq6lb lmao well I'm sold
The Darktide/Asheron Call game population declined over combat hacking, not pvp. If you were on Darktide, the intensity was part of the draw; it was the alpha pvp experience when pvp was new. And if I recall, DT's numbers were similar to the other 4 non pvp servers.
Asheron's Call's brilliance was important towns, so while in open world pvp the aggressor almost always outnumbers the defenders for a quick gank; in AC a (defenders) town, with instant portals, the defenders often could call on numbers, and make a good and interesting combat of it.
I remember that game I was 6 or 7 years old I quit the game because someone kill me for no reason 😂my father use to play that game more.
An ideal MMO needs to have a multi-faceted approach where casuals can casual and neckbeards can neckbeard.
thats hard to balance imho, ik its not a mmo, but look at mordhau, to hardcore for casual and to casual for hardcore with stupid balance so almost noone wants to go hardcore
like albion online. really really good mmo
@@organicleaf literally Albion online did this.
The issue is that one group on average cannot exist so long as the other does. The casual could care less so long as they have their space. The neckbeards unfortunately would see everything as “theirs”, ESPECIALLY, with what the casuals have. Rather than multifaceted, it would really be separate areas, and even then, it wouldn’t stop a Neckbeard from spilling over into a casual area.
Well eve online xD
After everything even today people still have this romanticized idea of having that epic fight on top of a mountain or something, where the moment itself was so epic you're not even mad about losing all your stuff on death. But in reality.... in reality... you're gonna get corpse/graveyard camped by a group of people until you give up and log out.
I have experienced this loads of times.
As I watched the video, I thought maybe the solution to this issue would be a forced duel system where you couldn't say no, as long as the game determines the fight is relatively fair. Instead of losing all your stuff, maybe you'd have to stake something(s) of similar value. There would probably need to be all kinds of considerations and exceptions and such, maybe limiting it to one forced duel per hour, no more than one forced duel against a character per day or x days (so you couldn't use an alt account or friend to put you on an hour cooldown), maybe allow you to blacklist a character from challenging you if you lose x times in a row to them to prevent harassment (and a limited number of blacklist slots). There are probably ways to force people to feel the tension of loss, and having it be a real risk/reward experience.
Just play Fromsoft games
There's a game called Knight Online, theres stricte PvP zone with spots of mobs to farm which u can invade and kill other players and u receive national points that u can turn into items, u don't lose exp or items on death and wars are every week, and there's like 200v200 or more people ( orcs vs humans) but with higher populated servers it's mage mage shit fest, mage parties running rampant just nuking people left and right, it's best pvp in any MMO I've ever played tho.
Can you tell me of a full loot PvP system that allows graveyard camping? All the ones I know, have safe spaces where you respawn, and get to store all your loot in those specific cities.
The paradox of people not having PCs but being able to afford dumping a crapton of money in their mobile game exists in 3rd world countries. It's the concept of thinking small purchases overtime is cheaper versus one big purchase. The effect of bad economy puts people in this mindset and is hard to break out of.
-from someone who lives in said country
Also, technically you don't own anything under oppressive regimes because the state could take everything you own and can't hide under your clothes one day and you won't get compensated or to speak about the injustice. Goons take your house and everything in it and you're on the streets with your wallet and phone.
@@SokkingBTtulaj Not sure if that's quite the ever-present danger :P. Also in these countries its normal to be overworked so not having a lot of free time to play on your home PC. Whereas whenever you're commuting or say some free time in work you can whip out your d-I mean phone.
Oh don't worry plenty of people now in the same situation in the first world now to.
Saving money set me free. You eventually have a big stash you can throw at anything you want when the price is right. Most people live pay check to pay check which is why both debt and freemium games are king.
@@aciuschristophores7789 It's pretty much a danger because nobody is buying property in undeveloped rural areas and the only place left in cities is where poor people live. Don't forget that it's mostly kids being milked in those countries, not the parents. Time is not the problem. It buying an expensive gaming rig just lose it when the bulldozer appears early in the morning.
I agree with Josh here. Getting into hardcore pvp game even days after launch is a freaking nightmare, when it's difficult to even farm the resources, because others with better items are already there, just waiting to take whatever you managed to farm.
It was fun. For a day
The thing is - nobody wants to be at bottom of food chain for 90% of time. People daydream of farming others and then sudden realisation hits - they are unhappy because they farmed bottom half of community to death. And at some point there is nobody to farm because biggest fish rarely challenge eachother unless its guild thing.
??????? you PVErs are so weird
Yep. Start with 100 players. Bottom 50 leave because they're getting camped indefinitely. Then the bottom 25 that are left leave. Then the bottom 10. Then the bottom 5. Then the bottom 2. Then the bottom 1. Then it's just you and the one guy camping you, and you leave. This is how it goes every single time.
@Reaper Modus That's you, but that isn't everyone.
@Reaper Modus Then you're the 1% that will stick around, casual Jimmy will leave and find something that's fun instead.
@Reaper Modus People just can't handle competition. Full pvp mmos are my favorite, Tibia, Albion Online, Eve. Some of the funnest times I ever had was playing full loot pvp games.
"Hey Jimbo, what would happen if we made an MMO to cater to the 1% of people who are latent sociopaths but who are afraid to be actual criminals in real life? ... I dunno Bobby, let's spend a couple hundred million dollars to find out."
Lol underrated comment
"They do it in the game so they must want to do it irl" Jeez this comment section.
It doesn't even need to be a PvP game, it just takes Halo Laso and how many people have completed it.
@@doomdude3034 shut up weeb
I feel like you've just successfully argued in favor of the government funding these games directly.
The absolute defeat in asmons face when he gets hit by the reality that shitty free mobile games curb stomp pc and console games any time of the day.
Same reaction I had. This is even more depressing now that Diablo Immortal is out. We're all fucked.
It's mostly built up by poor people who can't afford consoles or a PC, but their is more poor people than rich people, PC is the smallest group because it's the most expensive but they have the best games.
Even a game like EvE Online -which is pretty hardcore - has systems in place to make sure that if you're just remotely cautious, you won't get absolutely obliterated every single time you exit your hanger.
People don't want a no man's land PvP experience where there's no way to safeguard your 300 hour loot treasury
@@infernalz1337 haha exactly
When I tried EVE I had a pretty cool experience.
Warped to an area apparently run by some group.
Missed their warning to turn around so they obliterated me.
15 minutes later I got a message apologizing for killing me when they noticed I was new, told me it still was a restricted area and to be careful in the future.
Then gave me a bunch of credits to set myself back up.
Triple the price of the ship they blew up.
@UCB5o2yJOa0-UlIqmzwoF7nQ I'm not arguing against the point. I agree with it actually. But I'm saying that even in a game as hardcore as EvE, what you've explained happens less often if you're wanting to be cautious. You know what you're getting yourself into when you enter certain areas, but even so, there's systems in place to help against total obliteration every. Single. Time.
This is what rust would be like if were a MMO or the old version of New World.
@@arrogantbandit1 this happens honestly more often than not. EvE players aren't you typical hardcore Pvprs. Most of the community actually has honor because there's reward in it.
That magical moment when you learn to mine 50 km off of warp-in
In Ark: Survival Evolved, the PvP has dudes min/maxed to be PvPers with insane movement speed and Melee damage. You're out gathering some stuff and in a split second you're getting bonked on the head, knocked out, stripped clean, and killed for free.
And being offline raided and wiped because after months you finally decided to sleep for 6 hours....
@@joshthehomesteader229 yeah you need to have a solid tribe to be able to not only be in to defend but to be able to rebuild because everyone will be wiped eventually. Arks real problems r meshing and ddos so I hope ark 2 can fix the fundamentals there
@@stikdude22 yeah the meshing and ddos were a bitch. I still like the game messing around on single player or private servers but all the BS on official servers just killed it for me and pretty much my whole tribe.
Your only chance in ark is talk to mega tribes and associates. Id some times let bobs build on my servers and even defend them when griefed. But not many mega leaders are/were like me lol
@@tiraud105 our tribe associated with the space cowboys on our servers they were pretty chill, at least the reps we dealt with on our servers, but even being allied with a mega tribe didnt save us from meshers. And taking or moving to servers was broken with all the foundation spamming or spikes at all the spawn points.
It's good that EVE keeps coming up in this conversation because if you look into EVE's history it really is the perfect microchasm of the attitudes of elitists vs casuals in a full loot PVP game. In the early times of the game what mattered was having the biggest and best ships with the best weapons and equipment. But then people started to realize that if they just had superior numbers they could just keep throwing wave after wave of their guys at the enemy and, because their low level equipment was cheaper and easier to produce than the big guys, they eventually took them down. That's why it's the Goon SWARM and it identifies with the bee so much.
If you want PVP to succeed in a full loot game, then it needs to be on such a scale and with such logistic complexity that the PVPers NEED the PVE players to do things like handle the logisitics or farm for materials to fuel the war effort. You don't necessarily need them to participate in the PVP, you need them to SUPPORT the PVP.
It seems like NW has good systems in place to encourage this type of gameplay but it remains to be seen how it will all pan out.
Narrator's voice: it didn't pan out
I agree with you on your point but what EvE has that NW doesn't is consumption. Everything that is produced in EvE is destroyed and that creates a cycle. It would be pretty much impossible to get the NW players to accept gear that is destroyed permanently via any method. Maybe if that was a design element implemented prior to release but now? It wouldn't fly.
I'll skip getting into a rant about the other aspects of EvE that I have "feelings" over.
Good input with pve sourcing the pvp..
Or what ever system that helps pvp'ers to keep hardcore without much of a pain by losing their shit.
Rly like it thx
Ark has a fairly strong PVE element.
Yeah I think the same. Also "Albion Online" is a perfect example of a working PvP game that is almost good balannced. If New World would just have been a 3rd Person Albion Online it would have been perfect. Instead it does almost everything bad in direct comparison. e.g. in Albion Online even a small group can dominate against a bigger group or as solo player you can mostly get away from a horde of players etc. Stuff in New World do not work at all but should.
I remember when I played PlanetSide 2 (online FPS with many hundreds split in three factions that fight for control of areas over a large map) I always joined the faction that was in the worst possible position. It was fun holding back sieges against the other two factions and using choke points to defend from attackers because there were 3-4 times more enemies than allies in a specific base/control point.
Not sure if you have played recently, but they added a new faction you can play as called the NSO. You are basically a robot that does exactly what you described: join the faction that has the least pop on a given continent. Would recommend checking it out again, especially during the summer event!
PS2 is not an MMO tho, yea you got your upgrades and weapons to level up and equip but for the most part new players are not in a tremendous disadvantage when joining a fight and you dont lose anything once you die. PS2 works like a bigger Battlefield match with some extra added strategy first and foremost.
@@arforafro5523 uh. Ps2 is definitely an mmo lmfao.
Massive. Multiplayer. Online.
@@arforafro5523 It is exactly an MMO then, it is just not really an RPG
@@TheLol33656 r/whoosh
Josh double barrel Hayes: Flexing muscles and lifting weights.
Asmon: Eyebrow wiggle
bro every time he watches josh's video he becomes more nervous i swear
@@mr.serperior7002 good
@@mr.serperior7002 straight men tend to get weird around other men that happen to be sexy. They're scared that merely noticing a sexually appealing man, that might mean they're gay. Silly hets. 🤭
@@jordanallen3078 Damn, nice psychoanalysis
@@bronntoise Can't tell if you're bring serious or not.
That wasn't my intention. It's just an observation based on decades of experience with hetero bros. 😆
Asmon spoke the truth about hardcore PVP players not being good mechanically. Those games typically attract players who couldn't make it mechanically to play competitive games yet wanted a slice of that PVP experience by claiming they "got gud". Fighting games are where the real hardcore PVP players gather and that's where the glorious battle on top of mountainside that Asmon spoke about took place
There are very few players that want to invest time in a true PvP game. Arena shooters have pretty much died out for example. You wanted to play Q3A and have fun? The first couple of dozen hours in that game will just consist of you get getting absolutely curb stomped.
I feel like runescape did full loot PVP well. It was only in specific zones. There was also mini games like capture the flag where when you die you just respawn, no item loss.
I played those lol. I guarantee you players didn't play Soul Wars, Fist of Guthix, Stealing Creation, Castle Wars, Bounty Hunter just for PvP. That's barely true. Those games were popular because the rewards were fuckin amazing. Remove the rewards shop and everyone stops playing.
Heck even in Duel Arena, people and scammers didn't play for pure PvP. They did it to get your shit or to bet. You had people cheesing the combat mechanics or changing the duel settings without the opponent noticing in order to steal your stuff with the least amount of fighting
@@RRapierre I defo played Castle wars just for the enjoyment. The fact they had rewards does not preclude the fact that they are fun.
@@RRapierre Wildy was plenty popular. And optional.
@@RRapierre this is completely untrue. Clan Wars was more popular then all of those game modes and there was zero rewards. If you were a real RS player you’d never say castle wars rewards were good lmao
@@RRapierre castle wars had shit rewards
The problem is time sink. Many MMO's don't give you the enjoyable experience unless you devote time in front of a PC in your home with internet. Compare that to a simple 23 minute hulu show or 45 minute series. The great thing about WoW debut was that progress in its quest system was something you could do fairly quickly.
I loved Valheim, but after having to do some much time wasting from sailing back with minerals or running back when dying etc etc. i just ended up using the fly cheat to move around instead of sailing. and then after hitting the plains i just kinda realized that if i am so eager to cheat for time then i might as well not play it lol.
I found I was logging into a second world so when I logged back into my main world I was back at base. So I didn't have to go back everytime. Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. It made the game more playable as a solo or co op. That game is really designed to be played by a village of players really.
The first time is fun, I loved sailing with my friends and even shuttling ore back and forth, but after out 2nd/3rd "World" we downloaded a mod that lets you travel in portals with Ores lol. Wonderful immersive experience the first time, but afterwards its okay to mod it.
These are the real “you think you do, but you don’t” type of games
literally EvE
For as out of place as that quote originally was, it's become one of my favorite quotes. Another thing to go along with that is Junior game designers who try and make their game as realistic as possible which basically makes it super unfun
It really could be fun having a game with the danger of losing all your stuff, but there's never enough consequence on the part of the killers/thieves to make it have a believable, engaging end result. Or even anything short of tedious and mind rottingly boring.
Idk if it's possible with these kinds of games, so I think you're right.
Watching Asmon cringing during the 'finance' section was pure... gold!
I see what you did there
pure bald*
Pure asmonGOLD??????
I C
You made a great point about, “gamers feeling like they wasted their time”
I think this is why osrs does so well. Everything is always relevant but power creep becomes an issue.
Everyone loves to gank until they get ganked.
the fear of gank adds the spice
I used to be ganked at the begining when i started to play Albion. I got angry a lot of times and left for some days and come back. After some time i start to learn how to gank and i killed and get killed a lot of times. Gank is a part of the full loot game. The "spicy" and the adrenaline of being ganked while you are doing some content or even transporting gives a lot of adrenaline when you are playing. I tried others MMO after i played Albion (1st time i played a full loot pvp game) and i just cant anymore! Doing PVP without get the others gear just feel boring, you almost fall asleep. The adrenaline that gives you is what makes this type of game a lot addictive.
turn on UA-cam : asmongold reacts to new mmos.
turn on tv : asmongold reacts to news.
turn on window : asmongold reacts to nature.
opens fridge : asmongold reacts why are you eating trash.
Asmobombed
same, but i binge and smile
Full loot is fine if they have a high security and low security area. High security missions might involve stepping briefly into low security, with a warning for the player. They might learn how to evade enemy players that way. Eve online handled it pretty well. If it were medieval game, you might spec stealth and vision skills or get a fast horse whatever, in order to evade danger.
Exactly
Well done to Strife for making a video to show he's jacked.
Don't mind grabbing gear in Valheim. It is the skill deprogression that was killer, because one mistake would remove hours of progression. I wouldn't even mind it if it was for the current weapon I was using, but losing mining/tree cutting progression, sneak, and other things that take a lot of time to level became exhausting if you didn't just game every battle.
Just cheat. It’s a sandbox
Losing 10% of all your built up stats certainly hurts when you're at 70 points in stuff compared to being only 10 points in stuff. It's a little silly when the more careful you are the more punishing the game is to you dying.
@@rahn45 The problem is that people spend too much time worrying about not dying instead of spending it on focusing their efforts not to die. Just learn from your mistakes and think less about how the system works underneath.
I believe there is a mod that fixes that. To me the skill loss really killed pvp on the multiplayer server I play on. We had great fun with duels and pvp-tournaments but players would not attend anymore because of skill loss...
All this is very true. One member in my clan across several games played for the sole purpose of “Trauma”. it didn’t matter if he got the loot or if he died, as long as the other person lost something valuable, died, or became pissed off.
Thats the kind of person I genuinely think needs fucking therapy
It makes the genre. Harder to enjoy
I like the section where asmon talks about Rust in relation to these FFA full-loot MMOs. Crafting survival games, whether it's rust, arc, or even Minecraft, have what these people are looking for by default, but if you log onto any number of open servers, you'll find so many anti-griefing measures that eliminate these mechanics. 1 out of ten servers will allow something like total anarchy. I dont think there is dedicated development of PVP centric MMOs that could develop answers to the problems of griefing in these PVP style games. Answers that aren't simply removing the style of gameplay these PVPers are looking for or just nullifying the point of that style of gameplay.
The greifing has to be embraced to the extent that the more you grief the easier it becomes to get griefed.
Almost all games go the other direction trying to suppress grieifng that the meta becomes using specific griefs/exploits and shuts down new players who cannot access the same power level of grief.
I remember my first MMO. It was Ultima Online, way back at the beginning. I was a brand new first-level character. I had a sword and no armor, just newbie clothes, and I walked a few steps out of the gate and was ganked by four players who were farming newbs brand new characters for the 1 gold or whatever you get to start out with. That sucked. And they did that to so many brand new players. After a while, their bags got full so they just threw the stuff all over the road, as all they wanted was the gold. I wonder how many quit the game without even trying it that day.
I remember being in a guild where we would kill people and then resurrect them under the condition of locking their items and porting them to our abse area to go farm trees and shit for us. We'd keep them prisoner and wouldn't return the items until they farmed a certain amount of resources for us.
@@valravnsshadow9422 so u instituted slavery.... wow what a fucking advertisement for this shit genre
I was one of those new players. I quit the game instantly. The following year, EverQuest came out. I made friends in game, adventures, took on vampire lords, and then slayed some dragons. And I enjoyed it. Because nobody made it their goal in life to ruin my time and effort.
@@vissermatt1058 If I was that "prisoner," I'd just delete my character and make a new one. If same thing happens again, then I'll quit.
Hardcore PVP MMOs really bring out the worst of people huh
@@nulltheworm I made some friends in Ultima Online but after a few months, we all moved to Everquest. UO was so toxic that, for all its faults, Everquest was like a breath of fresh air. I stuck with Everquest until WoW came out.
I came back to this video specifically because now that NW has been out for 5 months ish, we can see how Josh was absolutely correct. The player base has dropped significantly. Yes lots of that is due to bugs and poor game performance, however on my server, the player base itself is struggling to even get along within the factions. There is infighting and constant bickering. Add in new twitch streamers looking to build viewers based on conflict, and it's pretty much a toxic shit show, complete with, "(faction) is just the worst and we need to teach them a lesson", narratives being promoted. It's getting rather pathetic.
Josh pointed out that hardcore PvP communities are not great for sustaining a MMO forever game, and he's right. Even after the server merge, the more casual players remain unflagged, and the sweaty Eddy hardcore players get bored very fast. I like the idea behind NW, but if compelling content, (PvP related or otherwise), isn't added soon, the server populations are just going to fizzle out. Will NW survive? I have no idea. No Man Sky turned things around, so who knows what's possible.
I think comparing No Man's Sky to MMOs isn't that viable. No Man's Sky is primarily a singleplayer game and no matter how many players were playing it at any given point, your experience would be unchanged. Whether it's 10 or 100.000 players, you'll experience the game as it was meant to be.
Now looking at New World, it becomes basically unplayable once the player number drops below a certain threshold. You will not be able to engage with most of the content and you'll be forced to pay for a server transfer once your server starts dying off. There's people who have had to pay multiple times because their servers keep dying.
That server transfer is also a double edged sword.
While it is a solution, it also makes the same problem even worse because now you're losing players even faster and a remaining player is forced to make a decision between;
- Quit the game
- Play on a dying server and be unable to engage with most of the content
- Pay up 15 bucks to play on a (for now) populated server
And the fact that New World is in such a state is pushing people away from giving it a try. It's the price of a full AAA game which many aren't willing to pay for an experience that they're not sure will last much longer.
With No Man's Sky, not only was it significantly cheaper you could also "Yarr" it in order to give it a quick try and see how the game's progressed.
Like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Uninstall and move on, no harm done.
I really hope New World can succeed too, but the odds are stacked very high against AGS. Will they make New World their first success story or will it be another one for the large pile of failures that this studio has amassed? Who knows..
To add further to the "guy stealing your sword" thing, it's bad enough that it only takes 3 seconds for that guy and his two friends to mug it off of you, but even worse is how long it took YOU to acquire that sword through grinding in the "regular" game.
If I played a game where it took me hours every day to farm this one ultra rare super sword for 5 days and one PVP fight where I got unfairly ganked by 3 guys made me lose it, you can bet your ASS I would quit forever. That's not thin skin that's absolutely shitty game design (in my personal, subjective opinion).
The thing about phone games that generates so much money is the fact that anyone can be anywhere and still play. If you were heading out of town for a vacation as long as you're not the driver you can play on the trip, on the destination and even while using the toilet.
Not to mention EVERYONE has or gets a phone in their teens, if not by the time they're an adult. These machines are basically given away for free at this point so of course games on them are more popular than games on something that only adults with steady jobs can really afford.
If you cant use your pc on the toilet your setup isnt hardcore enough.
The problem IMO is that most of the "casuals" have real life obligations like working and earning money to feed themselves/families thus has no time to grind/practice in a game like Hard Core Full Loot MMO.
And when character's strength and/or player skill is proportionate to the invested time - *which everyone has 24 hours a day equally* - these "casuals" are guarantee to get smoked against hardcore hardcore gamers/NEETs who spends their time in-game longer than them (some literally all the time except when sleeping). So they quit when they realized that any *very limited progress* they could've make will always set back to zero before it can get anywhere meaningful.
This's bad for the game's long-term survivability because these casuals happens to have bigger purses than the hardcore gamers/NEETs by the simple fact that they actually have a job and can afford to spend more money. While the hardcore gamers wouldn't spend as much due to time and effort were... ahem... invested elsewhere that won't earn them enough money for that.
This's also the reason why casual games like those mobile games are popular nowadays as it takes minimal time investment, so little that you can play it in-transit to and from work. Time which, allow me to emphasis again; *everyone has 24 hours a day equally*
It's much worse than that. These are "forever" games. So the person that started playing a few months (or years) before you has a few months more of 24-hour days than you. No matter how hard you play, they will always be ahead.
You can easily fix it, by making the npcs grind for you. Also by making pvp optional.
Idk man, Albion Online is fantastic but they have areas to PvP where you don't lose all your loot also. Oldschool RuneScape is also struggling a little right now because of the lack of PvP updates. I quit playing OSRS because all I wanted to do was PvP but to get to that point you need to grind hundreds of hours to build a decent account. The great thing about Albion as a PvP'er is that you don't have to do much PvE at all if you don't want to as the silver you earn from PvP can be used to buy Tomes which will progress your gear.
I don't play pvp in osrs but if I recall a ton of players fight in wilderness or pvp servers
Well, for Albion online majority of people will go to the full loot PvP zone. Because the exp and drop is double compare to the safty zone. It's not even worth anytime stay in safty zone. You may be killed by others, but in long-term you get more exp and drops.
@@phantomvulpe791 A ton of players used to fight in the wilderness and PvP servers. Of course there's still people there but there's a heck of a lot less people there than they used to be. I contacted a staff member at Jagex (people who made RuneScape) to do something about the barrier to entry for PvP and gave them ideas to make it more accessible but that was like a year ago so I'm not sure we'll see those changes.
@@Anger Ye that's true but those safe zones are perfect for learning how to PvP or have fun while gaining at least some fame and silver. You can also get good PvP gear in Albion for quite cheap compared to other MMO's so it isn't as big of a deal if you do die.
@@LoadingMeerkat there's another pvp mode but it's an arena but uhhh...I never done it but that shit has some shady gambling going on there best avoid them
I literally just watched the video now here Asmon is
Same
Doesn't that imply that you are at Asmongold house, at his desk, on his pc ?
same was thinking “this would be a cool video to see asmon’s thoughts on
Same i started watch this dude thx to asmon =)
@ Just Some Guy without a Mustache Didn't expect to see you here...
Well said about player's time. Whenever i feel i'm wasting my time, i get frustrated, i stop and go do something else. That's one of things that bothers me in WOW too.
yeah i sadly dropped wow after 3 months and a 5 year desire to be able to finally play it...and when im able to the game just wastes my time, i was pretty upset but oh well i got late to the party
"I've never played a first person melee combat game that I thought was good"
Meanwhile me with almost 3k hours in Chivalry...
@@Bellevue_hc mortal online 2 is pretty much that. Asmonbald hates it but I honestly love it. 100% worth checking out.
Is beyblade still the only way?
Hasn't played vermintide
I think many of the players that gravitate toward these kinds of games are the type that would stick around in a long-dead game (or forum, for that matter) just they can be the king of their own private molehill. They're not the most skilled players out there, but they know that if they just stick it out long enough they will gain bragging rights simply because the truly competitive-minded and talented players will move on to the next big game.
I remember trying TERA online's open PVP servers when the game launched in america. The game's classes were so poorly balanced that the most powerful class would just camp the same areas and keep killing and ambushing players who wouldn't be able to see them coming. It would just become this loop where you werent able to progress any further because these players would literally never leave that area and lots of people would just make a new character on the non-PVP servers.
Hardcore PvP MMORPG seems interesting at first glance, but the reality is that the inflow of new users is stopped and the game is ruined as existing users frequently slaughter new users.
Age of Conan was like this.
I was guilty of exactly this in Mortal Online and you are correct. That is exactly what ended up happening.
Why can't hardcore games not be like this? Why do egos ruin so many otherwise good things?
My issue with PvP is time. To be good you have to put in the time and practice. But if I only have few hours per week I will never catch up to someone who has 10+ hours per day of practice. Nor do I want to spend months of spare time playing a game just to be ok (i.e. still routinely spanked). Enjoy your PvP, but fun trumps frustration every time.
My most funny take is that most people calling for PvP games claim they want it to be skill based yet most so called MMO or Open world RPGs PvP games skill has 0 impact and it's just all.about your numbers even the ones they try to point to as oh we wish it was like this
If you depend on your players to make the content, and you only attract a destructive playerbase, you can imagine the content you'll get
destruction is beautiful just look at eve
Beautiful content
@@ellescer fuck EVE. Why would I ever play a game where I would have to use an Excel spreadsheet to be successful
"when a game makes players feel free they're wasting their time, that's when they quit"
PoE did this with the latest round of nerfs and I gotta tell ya, I'm loving my time in FFXIV.
@@roccoheat8662 you realize combat isnt the only thing in FFXIV? Lmao most people's goal is to hit max then collect, then glamour. 80 in all classes and 80 in all DoL/DoH, then do all raids, then get all minions and mounts, then glamour yourself, then maybe glamour your house. Just look at Asmongold himself, he's a man who lives for his mount collection. He's the guy who collects all of a Rust server's horses and shows his collection to xqc.
Asmongold watched a video on stream about FFXIV player hierarchy, Idk what it's called but it's on his channel. Players who play for the combat were near the bottom of the pyramid, and players at the top were the ones who spend real money to glamour everything because they did everything, and splurge on house parties in their end-game crafting guild/FC.
MMOs aren't all about PvP, anyone who thinks that will always be disappointed. Also, PoE is almost nothing like WoW, RS, ESO, or FFXIV. PoE and Diablo are ARPG, where combat is 90% of the content on 8 abilities lmao. Of course people who just want to fight play ARPGs, FPS, Battle Royales, MOBAs, etc. People forget that the latter half of MMORPG is RPG, and if combat-only players shit on other players who just want to RP as a fisherman quartermastering for his questing guild, then they're pathetic. Let them fish
@@roccoheat8662 yeah but the flask nerf broke my PoE addiction.
@@masterpain7742 Lmao fucker WoW barely even have housing. FFXIV has a different endgame than WoW. Endgame in FFXIV is completionist house with max mounts and minions and all glamours for armor and house. You can't complete the game without completing your house because a lot of items for your house are from extreme loot pools. Endgame in FFXIV is not raiding. Fuck off
Hardcore PVP is popular, but just not in an MMO style game. Warzone, Fornite, or any battle royale style game is hugely popular, but the items you lose don't take a long time to get back. You can simply hop into another game, gear up and fight other player very quickly.
I remember playing Ultima Online when i was a child and if u die and lose all ur gear, u can easily buy basic gear to go pvp again, farming the best was not mandatory to enjoy pvp, and the people wearing the best looking gear and going pvp with that was like gods of the servers. The success of UO (imo) is that if u were a good player u can win pvp with cheap gear against a bad player with full farmed gear.
@@thevoxdeus That is a game design problem. It can be fixed and was in many private servers. It was also done great in other games. The issue is that many people seem to think it is impossible
@@sirachman How was it fixed? You state that it's been solved, but declined to remark what the solution actually was.
@@thevoxdeus The failure of UO was the release of Trammel. Then suddenly there was no reason to go to Felucia when you could just grind dragons in Destard safely.
@@randomanon8408 People have written huge essay length blog posts and made hours long videos about it. The point I am making is that people share an opinion without doing any research or playing any of these type of games which were good. There are so many specif things needed to solve these issues, new player protection, incentives for legacy players to teach and guide new players, lots of horizontal progression, gear that doesn't give massive advantage, fun fluff items crafting and quests that allow mmo progression without building excessive pvp power creep, territorial capture/claim/buildup/loss/war/siege mechanics that are balanced well to incentivize an active community, and so much more.
The only bad experience I had in a hardcore pvp mmo was Albion online when there was literally a horde of BR's waiting to gank me in a red zone, I quit that shit pretty fast.
Albion is awesome. Never played hardcore PvP, but when they released Faction Warfare and i was in Thetford we rose from last place to first in one season because we came together, made a discord (no other faction had one, i asked) and had help from RAQ. It was an awesome game experience.
Yes that is one of the few mmorpg left
I quit Albion within five minutes of playing it. Didn’t encounter anybody
“Whenever you lose your stuff to someone else it’s not some glorious battle on a mountaintop” man for real
on tibia, a whole guild transfers their alts and some main characters to a server dominated by other guild only to wipe that guild from the server on a war and claim the server, it usually costs U$20.000 to do the whole transfer services and powerleveling supplies until the guild take the server
when the guild dominates the server, they start charging the guildless players real money in order to keep leveling their characters, and only the dominant guild players are able to share the best places in game to make money to buy tibia coins and sell in real life
as a neutral guildless you cannot join on world bosses, cannot do quests without paying, and check this, you have to pay to the guild if you want to livestream on "their" server
How do they enforce that though? I mean what can they do if I decided to do a world boss or stream the game?
I’ve never played the game so I don’t know how it’s possible to force people to pay real money. Let me know!
Its a open world, if they see you there you are dead, if you dont do allí they said you are constantly in target like a gang and cannot do anything... Hunt leveling quest nothing, when you llave protección zone you are dead xd
And this happens even in No-PvP servers, they wont let people hunt if you arent part of "dominando" guild lmao, dogshit game. But makes money for some
Somewhat similar in Old School RuneScape wilderness pvp clans had Venezuelan gold farmers pay for "protection" at the revenant dungeon. But eventually they got fed up with their "protectors" and starting taking over servers and killing anyone from the pvp clans.
The things you do when you need to play to eat.
@@josecampos7157 I dont even see how a game that functions that was is even alive.
I would have quit that game in a heartbeat
“I hate when people bring in facts.” I love based sarcastic Asmon. (“You mean, Asmon?”)
When the purpose of a game is to get others to quit, you get a majority of toxicity in a community. A Tolkien-esk realm mmorpg with that level of toxicity requires a special type of degenerate tribalism for which the world might not be ready to tolerate.
I can't get on board with games that combine PvE progression with always-on-PvP. Opting into PvP is akin to participating in a sport: everyone is focused on the (somewhat fair) competition and takes time out of their lives to participate. Getting jumped while trying to progress in PvE is like walking down the street to work and having some rando throw a brick at your head. There's nothing desirable in the experience for you and the vast majority of people have no desire to start preemptively chucking bricks at people themselves and will choose to walk a different route next time instead.
But hey, everyone needs to play what they like. I'll certainly spend my money on stuff that gives a sense of progression or sportsmanship.
Yes, i have been plaing rust for some time and a couple of years back when You found a naked and You were naked You could be like "ey, do You wanna be a team?" But now it's intant agresión, it's preventive agresión(?)
As a eve online player I love the full sandbox game and that most everything is player built and when it can all be destroyed it really makes you join with others for safety as well as taking down the larger stronger player. But you are correct it takes a type of player base. But I love the fact that for the most part I'm not "safe" when playing.
i think thats what people are missing, some people in eve love the full on hardcore pvp. While some people want to spend most of the time playing space trucker. Or space industrialist. and just save up for that pvp encounter. I do love the mantra of only fly what you can afford to loose. Which eve does give players a chance to do so. You are only loosing that one ship on that encounter. You still have your saved up resource and other ships on low sec space. Loose that frigate? no problem, just go back to mining or pve to get it back.
You’re a sado masochist. I refuse to play a game that requires me to use spreadsheets to be successful
I always play Hardcore whenever I play Diablo games, but the moment I die, after however many weeks or months, I quit.
I return every now and then, because I enjoy the thrill, but losing all your progress is just too much of a gut punch.
Played d3 hc once died to a lag spike at 2:36 in the morning pushing 122 . With the trash servers of blizzard how can anyone hc
@A Bell Ah, smart thinking.
We had this discussions years ago on private Ultima Online servers. It was always the cycle: new server -> a lot of players -> players are getting strong enough to kill other players -> retention because couple "reds" are killing newbies and role playing players -> new server
As much as I like PvP, it tends to ruin games if everything is based or balanced around it, Especially when it comes to mmos.
True, only P2W pvp games will thrive.
It can spiral down very quickly. I still remember a mmo I played where you need to do this chain to unlock your special ability. Of course, this also is an open pvp zone and people can kill you the moment you load into the area. It got really old really fast when you load in to see 4 people instantly attacking you.
Cough *Destiny* Cough
Eve online being the exception to this
same i love pvp in mmos but the mmo design isnt really that good for pvp, look at current wow, you have to grind weeks or months to play something in legion all you had to do was just queue and play your char. Eve? big ships kill you first sight. runescape? dude has 1000 consumables. Albion? zergy af. Gw2 is the only fun one nowdays and even FFXIV you can just hop on nowadays and be happy.
tarkov is a hardcore pvp game and it's actually quite good, but obviously it appeals to a different kind of player
I love tarkov, but you basically have to hate yourself to enjoy it
It's instance based, not open world. That's why it works. When tarkov becomes fully open world map-to-map travel, we'll see how the player base stands when 90% of people are just going to be camping extracts.
@@uWAVES I actually think its going to continue to be instance based maps because i don't think they will get rid of the timers of the instances. you will just reach another area and have to wait for more people to load into that map. .. god map to map travel is gonna be a cluster fuck when they implement it. they might have to redo insurance so when you die you don't fucking cry after the next day
Idea - Faction Proportionate Balancing, aka Conservation of Ninjutsu
more players in a faction on a server, reduced xp/loot/"honor" ratio; past X faction population ratio, ratio reduction affects combat or something
At 28 years old... I'm officially too old to really invest in games. Feels bad man.
I turn 28 in a few months. Welder full time. And art hobbies on the side. I still play video games. I havent lately because i havent found a game worth playing. If i play i want to put hours into it. Have a reason to play every day. I thought i found that in conan exiles but i had way to many drama issues that prevents me from returning. (Example. I hate wipe servers. I join a server and ask if they wipe at all before i grind a bunch. They said no they dont wipe. So i grind for 2-3 days for alot of shit. Only to wake up to a discord message saying they are wiping. I wrote a 2 paragraph post on how that is misleading and i was pissed off cause im losing all of that work I did. After saying they dont wipe. i got banned for bein"toxic" fuckers)
Pokemon unite is only 10 mins or 5 min matches. If u got or will have kids, I’m sure they’ll love it too
Nah. You're too poor.
If you were rich and didn't have to work anymore, you would definitely still be playing.
Unless you find no more enjoyment in games which is a different story.
@@sjwoo13 yo, chill kim jong un
@@sjwoo13 i dont think that has anything to do with it. Some people are poor and all they do is play games. Some are so rich they dont need to work. But you have some who CHOOSE to do other things then video games. Then they complain they cant or dont have time. Its like. Dude. Make time. There are many people who have full time jobs and family and still mythic raid in wow.
The only exception i think is graveyard shift. Unless its part time. When i part time graveyard it was amazing. I stayed up all night on my days off cause my nights were my days. So i could raid all night till 9 am then sleep till 7 pm and go to work
Asheron’s Call, back around 2000, got this balance right. Full loot PvP was available, on its own dedicated server. The other servers would allow you to do it as well but it was a higher level quest and a conscious choice and one that was rarely taken.
@🇬 🇦 🇲 🇪 🇷 ✓ they removed the wilderness
yep i wonder why more don't do this approach hmm maybe dev time split between the to??
@@markjordan7800 Well that game is unique in it's own time being an EARLY MMO and it really was the wild west. Having Darktide was FANTASTIC because everyone who wanted that style of the game, went there. So it catered to both the casual player base AND the hardcore PVP player base, albeit probably at random. That game had a TON of amazing ideas that never got fully fleshed out, or were flat ignored going forward like Real Time Line of Sight.
For instance, if I get a spell off, and you took 2 steps sideways, I would miss and do 0 damage. But movement was a major factor in how that games combat worked, and it was NOT super complex or highly varied in terms of abilities. Movement was there that complexity lied and came about by accident, again because of the era it came from.
I would not call it the best game, or even having the best ideas, but there was some serious untapped potential that got ignored, mostly because this thing called World of Warcraft came out and delivered an all new blueprint to how an MMO functions.
Thank you Asmon for your commentary on this because this has been a problem my gaming friends have noticed over time; when they quit, I'm less motivated to progress in whatever we're playing because of that, which causes me to jump games and essentially waste time. Such as Valheim or WoW Shadowlands for example , where the progression gets a little bit grindy. It's a fools wish to think i could ever complete worthwhile, valuable content for my character without friends understanding I'm new or without friends playing because they know the games have become these monopolies for poor game design built on microtransactions.
Where mobile games seem to differ is they allow you a streamlined path that is much more acheiveable over time but requires an even harder grind - and much pricier mtx cost on the player if they want to get further faster. Money grabs and weird design.
It's why I enjoy story driven games where it's literally up to me and the world challenges the game delivers to ultimately conquer the game and make the progression in a realistic fashion; like dark souls- where, once I'm good, I can enter PVP and be relatively on par in a fight even if I'm casual
if you ever consider single player retro metroidvania, play Timespinner on Hard+ difficulty, game isnt the most amazing combat wise but story is super well done with the progression, i payed the equivallent of 2 dollars in my country for it (10 R$ BRL) its just super worth it, 12 hour playtrough
13:15 I think this is one of the biggest issues with MMO's Their controls/combat are still stuck in this awkward early 2000 configuration. Never really changed that much. The only MMO's I know that really tried to innovate that are GW2 and Black Dessert.
The problem with people who want this is that they imagine a hardcore PvP experience where they can dominate like, 80% or more of players, either because they’re not trying to PvP or they’re much lower level. In a game that draws those people and has hardcore no flagging PvP, especially if it’s centrally focused on it, those players who aren’t good just aren’t going to play it. So you’re really only going to be playing mostly similarly skilled players and that’s not as fun to a lot of them as trolling low level and bad players.
It's 100% why MOBA smurfing is a thing. You don't FEEL like you are in the top 10% of skilled players if you only play people of your own rank, and it just ruins it for everyone else involved when you are out of place in the ranking.
Honestly every single hardcore pvp game of any genre that involves loot and losing loot has a tough time, not just games like WoW and stuff. Games like escape from tarkov even have a tough time keeping new players around, especially if they join during a mid wipe. You will get shit on consistently and you just have to grind and learn or you’ll always get shit on. The problem I have with games like rust is the fact that if you’re new no one wants to play with you cause your not good, you never get the change to get good just because betas wanna sit on the spawn beach and murder you over and over until you leave, if you do make it out you’ll just be ganked, or harassed until you leave, there’s no sustainability in games like these, the only reason that lasts is because of frequent server wipes, which is honestly what I think new world needs, a wipe that takes away all territory’s from players and makes you start over on regaining control. Keep gear keep level just lose the areas you control, that way it isn’t on faction just destroying all others, I’ve been on servers like that and all it does is turn the game into pve only because no one wants to fight a group that outnumbers 18 to 1
And these games deserve to die because their communities are full of toxic shits who would get their asses kicked in real life
I’ve thought about a “soul-chain” mechanic that could help with games like these. High-level mythical items farmed in a dungeon or PVE instance gets tethered to your players soul and can’t be used by any other player and can easily be tracked down within the world.
Nice idea. Only that you're removing the full loot aspect. You're again going towards a more casual playerbase.
@@zuterwer1835 I'm trying to think of a system where all of the other loot is, well lootable. And the only thing that stays with you is something you had to skillfully attain not craft or just find in the open world. It's just a hard system to try and balance for casual vs. hardcore players. As Asmon says the reason the games die is because the casuals are stepped on and pushed out. There's nothing wrong with playing that way obviously but this is the crux of game design, how to keep the most people happy.
I played EQ under those rules.... People didn't leave planes of power until LDoN even then it was LFG pop you in and pop you back to PoP... I only killed 2 people out in the wild one was a gold seller that had 2mill plat on him and the buyer that had 3 plat on him...
After that I never left PoP without my pocket Druid following me.
I will never understand wanting to play a game by touching a tiny screen.
I’m so so sad Last Oasis died like this. It felt like it had one of the most unique game mechanics ever and could of grown into a juggernaut. It started off with 60k players, now it’s just 300. I hope that a last oasis 2 comes out that isn’t full PVP or that a new dev makes a game with massive walkers that you could build homes on, the stability of combat on a mech going 20MPH while people are boarding you etc. Man, I miss that feeling.
And now it has private servers. Which is something it should've had to begin with. Darkside is about to unleash its private server of LO. So don't be afraid to look it up.
Never heard such a perfect representation of the real world and why applying its rules to the game would obviously make things suck lol 23:09
MMOs need to be designed with seasonal resets in mind especially hard core pvp mmos. I think the biggest issue is gaps in progression between newer and older players with the only breaks given to causal players being new expansion releases or paying to bypass progression altogether.
I thought Deadman Mode from Old School Runescape was enough of a lesson on the subject, lol. If you're a high level player you start farming mid level players and taking their shit. Mid level players bully the low level players. It was actually impossible for me to do something cause everyone and their mother would dds spec you out at level 15 and rebuilding felt impossible. You'd lose 5000g of progress, then 3000g, then 1000g, finally after losing 500g of progress you get frustrated and dip.
DMM was very unkind to player retention and because you have less stuff the learning curve isn't there it's either don't die the first time or every other death will be you getting bullied with impunity.
Yeah DMM definitely isn’t a casual game mode. Most players that make it far in DMM put in at least 12 hours/day from the beginning
@@confidential5743 God, imagine having all that free time.
"If more people play horde, then more people play horde."
You mean to tell me that other people do not base the choice of their faction in it's lore and aesthetic?
They probably do but a lot of times they also want to play and enjoy the game, and battling a fight in open world 1 vs 20 idiots that mull you down, is not.
I went horde because 1- thought it was cooler 2- all my friends were there. (as a new player)
I did based it on lore and aesthetics so I played HORDE, but then the horde got better racials the assholes came over from the Alliance and ruined the vibe by constantly shit talking everyone, selling boosting services, being sexist to female players in the horde and creating guild drama while trying to snatch good players from already existing horde guilds.
On RP server they do. On PVP server, people pick which ever faction that is dominant, often people have account with different faction just so they can switch around as well as spying on opposing faction just so they can have the upper hand.
In other word, most people don't want a fair, proper PVP, they want as much odds stacked on their side possible, which usually leads to ganking and griefing in an open PVP environment.
@@SokkingBTtulaj you posted cringe bro
I originally started out as Alliance, because NE were my favorite race in WC3. Absolutely miserable anywhere around Teldrassil (rip) so I would go all the way to Westphal since it was usually defended a bit by higher lvls, all the alliance on my server seemed to stay only at stormwind.
It wasn't very long before I had a Taur shaman and a troll hunter lol. Even just the nature of ally players it is like 50-50 they will attack even if they see you. I had the same experience as others with ridiculous groups of horde chasing my low level druid around even waiting if I went to go sit in Deadmines it was often annoying.
I didn't play anymore alliance until tbc when I could make a Draenei shaman and he was just for fun really, if the race could have joined horde I would have preferred it.
I am a casual player, and here's what I'd like to see in a PvP MMO.
This idea is more like a PvP game mode within an existing MMO than a full MMO itself, but one I think would be a lot of fun.
As a casual player, you craft or grind gear in the traditional manner, and then "enter" your gear into a gladitorial arena. This arena could be something small, or a large map a-la battle royales. This arena is littered with gear for players to pick up, some being base gear if there isn't enough gear entries from casual players, while other gear being the actual items that casual viewers have entered into the match.
As the game starts, PvP players collect gear and eventually clash over the gear they've collected. The PvE players spectate this match, along with a tracker for the item they've entered. Such as being notified when your item is being used or changes hands.
As for rewards, PvP players earn a traditonal PvP currency to be spent on exclusive rewards, while PvE players also earn a reward depending on how well the player(s) with their item did. Did the PvP player get into the top 3? Bigger reward for the PvP player. Did the PvE player's item make it to the top 3? Bigger reward for the PvE player. On top of this, PvE players get a bonus based on the worth of the item they gambled, in case it is used but doesn't score very high. And PvP players have a chance to keep one of the items they won in the game, even if it is an item generated by the game and not made by a player. Items that are never picked up are returned to the PvE player. This could also be a good way for PvE players to earn PvP rewards, albeit at a slower rate than actual PvPers.
When PvP players lose a really good item, it's a blow, but the PvE player is taking part of the brunt of that loss. They put in the time to grind it, but they are still getting a reward based on the value of the item even if they lose. PvP players may come across a really rare item and lose the chance to earn it, but they didn't have to put hours into getting it.
When I imagine myself as a casual PvE player in a PvP MMO, my ideal that I always imagine is being a supporter, a crafter who helps the people doing the fighting. Building and repairing structures, a field medic, or a gear crafter or cook.
In this example I focused on Arena or Battle Royale style matches, but perhaps it could also be used in mass seige combat as well? If a PvE player wanted a bit more excitement, but still not fight directly, perhaps they could enter THEMSELVES into the arena as specialized non-combatants that the PvP fighters protect while they build up a defensive base and speed-grind items for healing and defense.
So Old School Runescape, the pvp system & clans do the most fucked up shit you can think of, also illegal, just to win and make the competition join them or quit.
In a nut shell why anarchy sucks lol
reason why laws exist.
Foxhole is a good example of a Hardcore PvP MMO game that does it REALLY well. And the gameplay is fun.
Someone else's comment brought up EVE. Their point was you need PvE "Logistical" people to support the PvPers. You dont want the PvPers to always attack and steal from the Logistical people. It needs some form of harmony.
Foxhole is a great game. I would enjoy it if it was first person. I love Planetside 2 but I need a foxhole planetside hybrid
Again all these games are a niche
PvP MMOs are probably the worst MMOs out there. If a MMO company advertises a MMO to me and the first thing I hear is PvP-focused, I lose all interest immediately.
I feel the same but about raids. If the focus is all on raids, I lose interest. Everybody is different I guess
@@remyd8767 Yeah, I don't like MMOs that are raid-focused too and it's mainly because that, usually, they make it to where you're forced to do raids to get gear since the gear you can get doing normal stuff is basically garbage in comparison.
Last NW full loot de-evolved into naked people fighting each other with wooden swords. EDIT: Damnit, he beat me to it.
"why would i want to spend money on a game on a phone?"
ask that question again when you work a 8-6 job and your daily commute is 2+ hours on a train, and then you may have obligations at home and you have to be somewhat mobile. thus all you have is your phone.
At that point why play games at all? I worked a job like that for 3 years, I quit gaming entirely during that time, because there was no way to do it that was worth bothering with. Spent my money on ebooks instead. Only got back into gaming when I changed jobs.
@@AdmiralWalrus Because to many people, it's a much more satisfying feeling to see your party growing stronger in some gacha game than to see the amount of books you have finished reading. I've posed the same question to my friend when he worked at 10-10 shift at Popeyes for a year, the simple answer is, "I don't want to fucking read books".
@@melikechoc0 I get the appeal of gacha to an extent (Shit, I make youtube videos about a gacha game myself). I just can't imagine it as a "diet" or "bite-sized" alternative to traditional gaming. It's always felt like an entirely different sort of thing.
@@AdmiralWalrus Because those people still want to play games while living a demanding lifestyle. What kind of ridiculous question is that?
@@juz882010 Imagine saying something like this when you're an idiot who would rather carry a laptop around with them to game on than just use something that fits in your pocket.
I think it would be cool as hell if there were a wildy in New World with a few nice resource spawns deep in the zone. Similarly balanced to OSRS where you don't feel like you have to farm there, but the incentive exists for adventurous people willing to take a risk. You also keep players that are interested in full loot pvp happy and able to find fights.
These games remove the social contract that creates a functional society. That is the point. Philosopher Thomas Hobbes described what a world like this would be "which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Why would this be fun?
It would be fun if you were at the top of the food chain. But for the 99% of other people not there...
There was this korean mmo called rf online that did the pvp very well. It was small but it's a 3 way against races, so even if you're a new guy, you have a 3rd of the player ase to defend you in those pk zones.
Rf would have been better if enhancing wasn't as gay as BDO lol
14:23 suddenly getting flashbacks of that scene in HunterxHunter XD
I think Tarkov and Albion get it right in how easy it is to re-gear
Yes
The dichotomy between casual players and hardcore PVP types reminds me a lot of the Jedi compared to the Sith. Sure the Sith might be more powerful, but they kill each other off with infighting and can rarely exist in large quantities. Meanwhile, the Jedi thrive in their hippy temples. Clearly the answer here is a middle ground of sorts. A game to satisfy the "Mace Windus" of the world. People who take a bite out of both kinds of play.
I think the best answer that currently exists in that category is the rather rare "war MMO" like the Planetside series or the more recent Foxhole. Each character is part of a dev-created faction and therefore has at least some fraction of the playerbase as nominal allies, gear is obtained from armories instead of being drops that can be looted from you so there's no worry about losing stuff you grinded for, and there's generally some sort of "combined arms" gameplay that makes it so no player can completely dominate all comers at once.
Mind, none of the games I mentioned get everything perfect (clan gameplay and politics often come to dominate the meta of such games, discouraging players who prefer a more solitary, noncommital playstyle; stats tracking can lead to players treating it as a giant team deathmatch and compete with their allies to score the most kills or best KDR; any resource-based gameplay often becomes the subject of various sorts of griefing), but currently they seem to be the best option for someone like me who likes PvP but not ganking (on either end).
I think haardcore full loot makes sense in sessions. You get into an arena, there you can use all you get,, and after that you get some ingame currency for example based on how long you survived and which items you had at the end of that session. And that you can use to get better in the rest of the Game, which is mostly pve.
Like honor in WoW, just with earning, crafting and looting beeing implemented in the BG.
Albion evolved in a way to cater for hardcore players, but it also allow for casuals to play it too. Is it take way more time to progress?....yes. Limits the kind of content you can do in the game?...yes. But you can safelly progress in the game without being obliterated. The full loot mechanics on Albion works like a stock market irl, you choose if you want to risk dieing and losing everything in the hope to make a huge and fast profit, but the choice is with you.
29:08 I recognize on some level, a game is always going to be there to relax and waste time, but I don't like it when a game makes me feel like it's going out of its way to waste my time and effort.
That's why I love ESO so much. The end-game of ESO is, well, building houses and furnishing them.
I came from classic Runescape, and classic WoW, and it's super unfortunate that all these games are going super casual or pay to win. People always say "I don't have time for anything other than casual". Well people had no problem finding time for classic RS or WoW, and there are thousands of super casual games. It's hard to play MMOs now where adventuring, and finding groups in the wild is no longer there. Sitting in cap waiting for a queue isn't MMORPG IMO. It was cool having open world PVP, and meeting randoms on a quest to group with to kill an elite. No longer a thing.
WoW and RS released in an era where the MMO genre was still young, and new genres attract young players with a lot of free time. This remains true pretty much forever - most gamers willing to try new games will be younger - but the community as a whole does still age. The initial wave of players is still around, even as they slowly become a minority, and they want to keep experiencing the highs of the games they played as a teen or in college even as life gets in the way. That's why this attitude inevitably comes up over time in any game community that's been around for more than 5 years or so.
@@66maybe66 that the playerbase of early WoW was comprised entirely of teens is nothing short of a myth, in fact the average player age back then wasn't unlike now.
because the people playing were children and didn't know what they were doing lol. atleast with runescape
@@joshuagrahamtheburnedman1814 Read again. He never said "entirely".
Because it's easier to have a phone and more convenient than building a gaming PC. That's why mobile games makes more money. Almost every single person on Earth already have smart phones.
Even my brother as phone and tablet before he turn 6 and now he is 9!
I've bought Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights and Final Fantasy IV and Tactics (plus few Visual Novels) and I must say that turnbased JRPG's and VN's can be good on phones, you can play it quite comfortably, but anything that requires quick reaction and precision is just annoying to play. It's wierd that there is not that many popular indie games made in RPG Maker or RenPy.
I was really in to eve online until I woke up from a nightmare about having forgotten to fuel a Starbase causing a loss of control of a system. That was my breaking point.
I'd made and lost billions of isk in ships over and over, including dreadnoughts (titans were actually rare back then an alliance might have had 1 maybe 2) advanced battleships several tech 3 cruisers and countless HACs. I'd come to terms with the fact that every thing in eve is transient because if you get target called you're gonna die. The only thing that was not transient was control of space.
Haven't touched it since.
HS/LS stations for safekeeping? Bring to null/J-space shit you need? And if your corporation wanted you to move all your shit to them, they are fucking idiots.
*As someone who has Thousand of hours in both Games, i can say that ARK is by far the best Survival game out there, just don't join official servers and you're fine and not to mention PVE is actually a main focus of the game unlike RUST, so ARK has a Story and a Narrative that you can follow in both Online with ur friends and Offline by urself which appeals to both casuals and hardcore players.*
Not to mention you can customize the setting to be less grindy in SP mode and unofficial servers.
Conan is better
@@jorgemiguel2641 Conan is good, i have 2k hours in Conan but it lacks the features and content ARK has.
Conan has been abandoned with their halfass dlc, Funcom is just spamming "cosmetic" dlcs left and right and now currently working on a new game called DUNE
@@aaronastra7938 Personally my issue with Conan is that it's too easy to spend dozens of hours making a base only for someone to completely level everything with a few explosive jars. It's unbalanced in that it never pays off to build good defenses.
It's why I play on a private server where we've banned explosives, only way to break into a base is through a trebuchet siege. Puts emphasis on defense that way.
Other things could be better I agree, good thing mods correct a lot of it. One thing I dislike is how grindy these types of games get in terms of resources, you can have an army of thralls and still be the one mining. Id rather go the Satisfactory approach and set up machines(or in this case thralls) to harvest resources and automate the process.
Telvar in eso is a good example of a currency that is gained thru pvp and also risked thru pvp. An alternative to gold in a way could be used as an incentive rather then weapons and items. Telvar works with a multiplier, the more you carry on you, the more you can gain from killing an enemy.
I totally agree with you when it comes to first person melee. Whenever I play elder scrolls games I always go ranged for a reason.
Albion Online didn't Fail - Its one of my favorite games that i played
Never seen such a populated game