I just look at BDO - the whole game is focused toward gearing up for PVP and people are just not playing the PVP anymore (outside of streamers and 5 randoms) I’m wondering if I’ll get as much hate as you will for this video on this comment alone lol
Yeah, the fact that PVP has all these problems before mentioning the fact that beating people up for their lunch money is something only the shittiest people want to do, leading to the worst people imaginable flocking to a playstyle already disliked by the rest of the playerbase, really drives home the point.
@@Frommerman Yeah mmorpgs don't need to cater to all gameplays, if I want to pvp... I just go play cs2 or ow2 or literally any other game actually designed for pvp.
In my opinion its an unsolvable problem because the people that want mmo pvp don't want skill based combat, they want their infinite hours to give them free wins against others. Its the same logic that basically all open world pvp is just griefing instead of fair fights. PvP and MMORPGs are just wholly incompatible; PvP says "lets find out whos best on a level playing field" and MMORPGs say "lets reward players with power for their time". Like CoD and Fortnite would be unplayable if you got more hp and damage for each match you played, it would be a game only for those with no lives.
PvP lost a lot when it went from more or less a way to show off how powerful your items and character were to much more skill based systems most games have now. When you get killed by somebody who has the cool items you want you don't feel bad and understand why you got killed really easily. Their reward is the power flex and your penalty is basically nothing in a battleground or a couple of running back in the open world. Games and gamers now can easily get all the best and most meta items because times have changed. People used to guard secrets and strong builds back in the day because that was the most beneficial thing to do. Now with streams and socials it's way more beneficial to share that stuff so all the best info gets out there. He makes some great points about changing the focus to something else now, and I agree with him.
@@pulleyfm8585 Didn't notice or hardly notice a problem about the accessibility of open world PVP, I played MU private servers the longest out of any MMORPG's, cause you get stronger so quick there. And you can fight the like top 1% of players there, except the top 0.5 whales of course. The problem with pure PVP focused games(like battle royales) is the APM, you can't chill or take a piss or drink a coffee cause there's always action, not saying it's bad but you're not always on the mood to move all the time.
@@MangaGamifiedstarted playing mu myself on a private server in january, full pvp server, works out great with no cash shop. It's incredibly fun but there are always a couple people who play only to kill and inconvenience noobs who can not fight back.
I remember trying to use the fighter jets in Battlefield 3 as a kid and being upset because everyone else had homing missiles but I only had the machine guns, and you could only level up and unlock the missiles by getting kills with the jet. It felt bad to be losing at PvP not just because of skill, but because the other player had tools that I wasn’t allowed to try because I hadn’t played as much as them. Like you said, I think MMOs have a similar problem; it feels bad to lose because your opponent grinded for a better account, and it feels bad to grind for a better account if you can’t use it in PvP. You can’t easily please both players at once.
@@jacobmaruth3598 Talking about multiplayer in general, Unlocked all is not an all-in-one solution either, when some players get better and get pitted against better players, they'll just make a new account. They can keep repeating cause there's nothing to lose. In a perfect world in a controlled environment, unlock-all is obviously the better choice, but you know that's not the case. I think no multiplayer is perfect, publishers just has to pick the lesser evil.
As an OSRS player with a single character, knowing there’s people who have PvP specific alts whose skills are specifically built to pk for lower level areas is enough for me
That just sounds like a failure of the combat system tbh. Developers should make sure that every type of build is viable. And if it isn't, that's just poor balancing.
@@Trolldamere believe it or not they were viable in RuneScape classics where mage/range was more of support damage and you had three rounds combat system, which made pker/pure accounts weaker vs mains.
@@Trolldamere now they can't adjust because they will fuck up peoples combat levels. And if they adjust you will basically have all players as mains and no pk/pvp accounts. Runescape classics 3 round system along with range and magic just being support damage fixed all those problems. A lvl 75 main in runescape classics in pvp stre would be around lvl 62 if all the attack ,stre, def were about the same plus having 41 prayer aka the standard. He would be able to hit a 24 max damage with dragon battle axe and prayer and super str potion. Vs a pker account who could hit a 36 max damage. In a three round system the main account would have a chance as the attack lvls and def would wear down the pker account. And a pker account at combat lvl 75 would have about 85 hp vs the main account which would have about 72 hp. BOth players are combat lvl 75. 24x 3 is 72 36x3 is 108 all in combat the health pools the main has a decent chance to win the fight.
@@grandcanyon2 Look it's cool and all that you wrote a lil' phd dissertation over here, but my point is that the game just shouldn't BE like that in the first place. People like runescape because it's unique compared to other mmos in that you're not stuck with a choice you made on day 1. Every player is intended to be able to do all the content and train all their skills and experience *everything* the game has to offer on *one* account. But Andrew Gower fucked up on day 1 with the combat system, when people started figuring out that an account is better when you *don't* actually train defense. That is stupid, plain and simple. Andrew should have fixed it back in 2001. The game just should not be like that, period. People shouldn't be punished for training all their skills. But he fucked up, he didn't tweak the combat system when he had the chance, and now we're stuck with it. People only like it because they get to prey on noobs who didn't min-max their accounts in the wilderness. It's bullshit. That's my whole point.
I think that the main issue with pvp in a MMORPG also fails whenver devs try and make it because the pvp player in general does not want a fair fight, they want a fight that they have a massive advantage on so whenever a pvp mode comes out that that is fair it becomes dead content to any pvp player.
This reminds me of GW2. In it there's the fair pvp mode(Gear doesn't matter) known as PvP and its under populated and never has a queue to join. Meanwhile the open world pvp mode called World vs World (WvW) that makes gear matter and lets you effectively auto win by getting a massive hoard of teammates, is fair the more popular game mode. WvW also routinely gets long join queues for specific maps that they had to make a mini map known as the edge of the mists for the overflow players.
Yeah, the idea that pvp players want a fair and interesting fight is way off base in my opinion, most of the time they seem like they just want to prey on people unprepared to fight back. All the luring in RuneScape being a great example.
Exactly. Look at the fuss the Elden Ring PvPer's put up about not being able to invade people. Their fun is in ruining other's game experience, not in a test of skill.
Eso was not like that. The general pvp player wants there to be a skill cap. Which might make it unfair for the unskilled, but it is something that makes your time worthwhile.
As someone who was ganked for 6hrs on his first visit in STV on some private server I hate non-consensual PvP in MMO. I like to play shooters where it's main focus, but if I want to hit my "do this world quest 20 times" in WoW achievement I just do it in the dry seasons.
"I think most pvpers would like to be challenged more" osrs wildy pk teams will disagree. They only thing they want is powertripping, because there isnt even alot of money to be made pking compared to pvm
I've played MMOs since 2006 and I'm not an MMO PvP enjoyer. The appeal of MMOs to me always lay in the social aspects of the genre. Meeting new people, building social groups and doing fun activities together. To me PvP runs counter to that side of the game. The fact that PvP rewards are unlocked by reaching predefined milestones set by the developers tends to put players at odds with one another, and leads to players having to perpetually work at improving their skills. If a member of the group isn't as invested as the rest of the group they're likely to be ejected from the group because they're not good enough. That social dynamic is not very healthy, and I wish that more MMO players would take a step back and examine how they allow the game to shape their attitudes towards other people and the game. I've played thousands of hours in other PvP games like Dota, CoD and CS because those games facilitate PvP extremely well. It's a core element of those games. But MMO PvP could never hold my interest. It's just not the strength of the genre.
Wait, you're telling me that it's toxic to expect everyone else in the game should be doing the same 16-20 hour a day 3 month long PvP grind? How are they going to get the best gear then?? Honestly though, now that you mention it.. I realize my most fun times with PvP in MMOs was when it was darn near silly role play lol. Silly role play that was always eventually ruined by a giga sweat lord coming in and flexing their 5 million hour grind.
In fairness, at least with WoW, this same dynamic has happened in PvE. After seeing what has happened with Classic, it's clear that PvE content that's too hard also splits friend groups. While I do that that there needs to be some difficulty, I think it needs to be more what I call "RPG hard" where more stats will eventually win you the day. Not mechanically hard like they've made them. IMO, the hardest raids in WoW should be roughly the same as Sunwell.
Something to remember about Ultima Online the entire economy was based around open world pvp, so losing your gear meant the players who only played as a blacksmith would have income. Crafting was an entire template so they could really only make money off if other players purchasing gear multiple times. Also reaching "max level" was mostly trivial in the beginning because it was skill point based not actually levels. The best gear was also easily obtained so the accessibility was nearly instant even for high skill play. Power creep has set in fully with the retail release and pvp could take years before a player has enough gold to even attempt it now. A free version of Ultima Online called Outlands has done some pretty great things to return the game to a state where the original pattern is still recognizable as far as open world pvp is concerned. You are absolutely right that accessibility is the main key for pvp to be accepted by the player base. Reaching comparable level, getting multiple load outs of gear, and allowing players to keep jumping back in are things that can be achieved but the focus on pvp has to be there from the beginning. Mixing high end pve such as ,mega bosses, and increasingly powered gear with brutal pvp only works for a little while as players are learning the game and still trying to level up.
A true fan falls asleep to Idyl's silky smooth voice, providing one entire uninterrupted view. And THEN rewatches later to actually absorb the information. And then comments for engagement.
Something similar happened with destiny 2, there was 2 weapons that were exclusive rewards from hours of pvp, that were the best weapons in pvming, and so it resulted in a lot of pvmers just being angry and frustrated that they were forced to interact with the pvp. I believe the dev response was to just make the pvp weapons shit from then on.
Happened in WoW too, during Mists of Pandaria. The legendary cloak required several PvP wins, and the cloak was generally a PvE item. Which resulted in a lot of PvEers growing dissatisfied on the forums and other places. Only to be met with the oh-so-common "git gud". I was a PvPer at the time and had a lot of fun rolling over the inexperienced PvEers, but looking back I was probably being a jerk.
@oliverwilhelm6171 if anything it exposed that most pvpers get bis then don't touch rated until next season. Just stomping noobs or playing other games
21:43 Yes. That's why a majority of them will seal club the second they get the opportunity. Seal clubbers are the target audience of MMORPG PVP or really any other high-risk PVP game with no matchmaking. They don't care about getting an engaging fair fight, they just want to annihilate someone who has no idea what's happening so they can feel like their hours were worth it. That's why Git Gud is their go-to response.
The funniest part to me is that a lot of average PvP'ers will hyper fixate on those extremely rare moments where they overcame a single huge disadvantage, but then completely forget the 100 other situations where they brutally lost in the exact same, or worse, scenario.
Yup. I tried WoW for the first time with Season of Discovery. It was great until I hit the level 25 cap in phase 1, and tried raiding. I was raiding with a good group so it went smoorhly, but I didn't understand why I was doing anything and didn't want to have to do research to learn the meta. I've since quit because playing WoW as a new player is like showing up to the Tour de France with a cheap Canadian Tire bike. Everyone else has been training daily for 20 years and is wearing all the best biking gear.
@@GothixZa Why I don't watch all the tutorials/meta discussion and just mess around. Way better for my mental health, than obsessing over the latest "bests"
@@Doombringer55 well starting with Season of discovery is literally a recipe for confusion. Its like loading up an expansion pass before playing a base game and complaining its too complicated. Personally, as someone trying to get into RS in 2024, that feels much more like the Tour de France than learning what stats and spells to use and press in WoW. Literally cant do shit without a wiki open beside me.
Turns out, games that have you stand still to use half of your abilities that are just canned animations with damage properties and minute-long crowd control meant to fight bosses that take 50 people to defeat, and where your power level is based on how long you've spent grinding for gear with bigger numbers aren't that fun to fight other players in. Who would have thought?
Not mentioning EVE kinda shows that he doesn't know anything about full loot PvP in MMORPGs. EVE is literally the best example of how to do open-world PvP properly. EVE has been around since 2003 and has nailed open-world PvP ever since. The open-world PvP of EVE is so good that Albion Online literally copied it, and thanks to this, Albion Online is now thriving. That's how you do open-world PvP, period.
The problem with EvE PVP, as I understand it, is its ubiquity. Players who enjoy that get to have it, but it drives off players who don't want all PvP all the time. So it works because everyone who doesn't want it is gatekept from thw game entirely.
I think your final message sums it all up really well, and does a good job representing my experience. When I was playing ffxiv, I enjoyed the pvp because it was a casual style of pvp in a casual kind of game, I was able to get decent and hold my own because the skill ceiling was an appropriate height to where the best players still had advantages, but every now and then I could get a run going. I also play osrs and the pve is open and lets me be a casual, but I won’t even go near pvp in that. I appreciate the skill set it takes to be good, but I want nothing to do with it
Tbh this is why I loved PvP private servers in WoW, such as arena tournament, or battleground focused servers. Everyone started at max level and okay starting gear. You had progression, but a very skilled player in starting gear could still beat a bad player in maxed out gear. Had just the right balance of skill vs progression. If you lost a BG it was not the end of the world and you could still have fun. Nowadays everything has to be sweaty and ranked, which is such a turnoff when you just want to enjoy the game.
Surprised and disappointed that you didn't talk about Albion Online, because I know you played it!! (stares in 34-minute Idyl review). I would honestly consider Albion the premier PVP MMO of today. Sure it hasn't solved every problem of open world PVP (which truly is a cursed game design problem), but it is the best blending of both PVP and MMO I've ever seen. For those that don't know, the game introduces PVP to new players gradually and in safe environments, gradually ramping up both the risk and reward until you're ready and _wanting_ to enter the full loot deathzones. And it addresses the issue of dying all alone by sectioning entire parts of the game as "solo PVP only", "small group PVP", and "massive siege battle PVP", each one with their own fleshed out mechanics and rewards. You get to be a lone wolf if you want, but you also get to choose when to group up, and are greatly rewarded for it by gaining access to whole new game experiences.
The most recent time I got pked in osrs was when I was 4-iteming a clue step and some sweat started freezing, vengancing, and like swapping overheads like a madman. I didn't even lose anything, but that experience just completely turned me off the the idea of pking in osrs. Ceiling is too high and I don't have time to learn all the tick perfect clicking required to get a good pk
Great video Idyl! I think that pvp with default gear sets or loadouts often results in a complete detachment to your character- I agree. At the same time, pvp systems without this "equalize the playing field" results in unfair situations where now, to even engage in PvP, you have to grind for the optimal gearing to even attempt to learn PvP. A compromise has to be in order and I haven't seen many games try to implement something like removing enchantments, consumables, and other "extra" factors in order to make gearing necessary but not overly tedious. Elder Scrolls Online, for example, runs into the issue that you really need to grind quite a bit to get pvp gear sets with the optimal traits (that require time to research), and enchants. In this case, a good idea would be to disable enchants and traits and make gearing necessary, but not extremely tedious. I also do think that, this combined with a PvP arena (like 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, etc) would be a good way for players to learn to play PvP without the barrier of entry being too large and at the same time, still preserve that attachment to one's character. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something. PvP is incredibly hard to incorporate in an MMORPG and I think to do so requires some serious creativity on the developer's part. Ashes of Creation is trying to handle open world PvP with their Karma system but I'm not sure how that can work.... Another issue with open world PvP that you touched on is emergent behavior. Developers cannot predict how players, on mass, will behave over time. This is the issue with emergent gameplay that inherently involves disruptive player to player interaction.
MU online solves PVP by disallowing quick/instant travel, be attacked by powerful guards(or something like towers) that bypasses resistances and is a percent of max HP. and most if not all NPC won't do business with them, tho to remove "phonomania" status you have to pay a really huge sum of gold, even higher than crafting the best weapons. I don't play wow so don't quote me on that, but it's such a simple and if I dare say genius way of making people 2nd guess of killing other players.
Using this audio in the beginning of the video while already reminiscing on early gaming memories is setting my nostalgia meter to levels I hadn't experienced since the re-release of OSRS lmao
@@Tranewrekk thank you! It was in my playlist somewhere but it's been so long I couldn't recall the name right away, but the heart recognizes these tunes immediately haha
All could be fixed with more rewarding pvp. You can’t tell me that if bdo on console came out with a new 5v5 tournament style mode with pearl rewards, leaderboards, and gear payouts the environment wouldn’t change fore the better. Reward players for pvp. Open world. Node wars. Siege. Rbf. All of it. Not just some minor silver that will get thrown down the drain trying to enhance gear. Albion Online is pretty good for pvp but it lacks in character design and mechanics compared to most other games. If bdo and Albion Online had a baby, that would be a great game.
Something that resonated with me from the video was the mention of how battlegrounds have been optimized into being stomped by groups of coordinated players. I was wondering what made this new battleground mode in an MMO I like start to sour with time, and I see that the thing that has changed with time is that, as a solo queuer, I am increasingly faced with teams of 5 who use coordinated meta tactics that cannot be combatted with random teammates. It's taken a lot of the fun out of it, since a team of 5 is inaccessible to me, and the issue is compounded by the fact that all of the progression in the current seasonal event is tied to this battleground mode, forcing me into this pretty disheartening cycle.
Maps should have narrow corridors where people can only go in/out one at a time, allies also can't go through over/under their allies, if you had watched 300 Spartans you know what I mean.
@@Nipah.Auauau The downside is that you punish people queueing as teams with much longer wait times. Since it's 5v5, there's also the difficulty of whether a team of 4 should be in random queue or against 5 person teams, etc.
@@oposdeo I was more thinking of larger battlegrounds like Arathi Basin, but to answer your question whenever a designer is given an opportunity to make metaslaves suffer, they should always do so. There could also be a team-size limit on randoms so 2manning with your friend would still put you in the randoms queue. Also, doesn't arena have dedicated 3v3 etc. or did they get rid of those?
@@Nipah.Auauau I'm talking about some random MMO, I don't play any Blizzard games. On the subject, you DON'T want to punish 5 player teams, as that's the most desirable and intended way to play the game, not joining randoms. Nothing about having a team of friends to play with makes you a meta-slave or whatever, and in many cases, those players are the most engaged with your game. For team size limits, you still have a problem. If only 1 and 2 player teams can be in the random queue, what do you do about a 4 person team? They need a solo queuer to make 5, but you've segregated solo queuers from the team games. Same thing for a 3 pairing with a 2. It's not that simple. The game I'm specifically talking about already had pretty long queue times sometimes, so exacerbating the issue isn't ideal. There's some other downsides from segregating players in this way. As a solo queuer, I would definitely prefer to play with other solo queuers, but it's not always that simple, particularly when you want to encourage team play.
PvP skill level is kinda set by the community around the activity. Even if a game has complex and difficult mechanics, PvP can still be easy if the playerbase are bad at it. The opposite also applies if the game is easy and simple, but the players are extremely skilled in it.
Early UO Days Full Loot PvP was just the standart. When MMOs changed to themepark ( and used gear as motivation and character progress) the formula didn't work because no one wants to loose weeks of time invested. Nowadays Albion does a nice job. With full loot and non full lot options. Also gear has the same value as Buff food in other games.
I'm honestly shocked you didn't look into Elder Scrolls Online, as I think it's original PvP system of a war campaign map and the Imperial City/Sewers is a good take one open world PvP! Especially with certain campaigns putting everyone at the same level cap, forcing the game into a real test of skill and prep, as opposed to just having higher numbers!
There is a really cool niche open-world faction PvP MMO that I've enjoyed playing called StalCraft. It's an MMO set in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R universe with a "half-loot" PvP system, that I think solves some of the issues you mentioned. You go on expeditions out of your safe zone to gather materials that can be sold, equipped, or used to upgrade your gear, but if you are killed by a member of another faction, they can take your loot. However you will never lose your gear that you have spent hours grinding for. You lose your ammo, consumables, and the items you gathered on your expedition. So at most, you're risking some money you spent on supplies, and on the spoils of your expedition. It makes the entire gameplay experience more tense and exciting due to the looming risk of PvP, but you don't get too disheartened by dying, because you're only losing the progress you made since leaving the safe zone. And you also feel motivated to kill enemies because you can get their spoils and make your trip more profitable. As an FPS, it's also easy to understand and get into PvP. You never have to feel bad equipping your best gear because you know it's safe, which makes progression more satisfying.
Tried runescape as a teen looking for a break from wow. Spent a month farming a Robin hood set and finally found my first clue. It took me into the wilderness and right as I was about to finish it I got killed. That cause me to quit and never touch a pvp game again lol
As a PvPer of 20 years you hit the nail on the head wpvp is what is good about mmo PvP I expected to be mad at this video but you nailed it. Most people looking in from the outside fail to get this point
I think the natural progression out of pvp in MMOs are the newer pvp focused games, such as Dark and Darker and Escape from Tarkov. Not MMO's but still offer lots of player interactions while delivering a sense of exploration. Dark and Darker also really taps into the RPG experience with the class system. As much as I love osrs pvp I can agree it's not growing, the barrier of entry is just way too high to attract new players. The latest Deadman mode, however, was a ton of fun, so hopefully they keep doing those as it can be a good entry point to learning the mechanics without risking losing anything on your main account. Either way I really liked the video, and am hopeful that PVP won't ever go away entirely from MMO's because I'd stop playing them at that point. For me it's an important reason to play them, once I've saturated the PVE content I want to progress to the big leagues, and I can't imagine anything will ever be more challenging than facing other players.
DMM is as it has always been. A massive joke full of cheaters and degens who will sleep 3 hours a night and have a clan of bots muling for them. It is nothing and noone cares about it. I never cared about it only saw the drama and think Jagex should stop flogging the dying horse that is pvp. PvPer's want walking cash stacks they do not attack fair fight opponents.
Yeah, I definitely felt this in Destiny 1 & 2. The first especially when the Thorn was a thorn in everyone’s backside and you literally couldn’t compete without it along with it being a grindy PvP exclusive quest too lmao
I still love PVP on a fair playing ground. But once you introduce any level of pay-for-advantage, it loses all credibility. I dont even unserstand how Gacha games have "conpetitive PVP". All in all, great video. Subbed
Sadly have to agree. When I started playing MMOs in Ultima Online, PVP was my driving force. Same thing when I went to WoW. Yeah, I raided, but it was because I wanted the best PVP gear. And then when arenas came out, that was my focus. Then around 2010 life happened and I stopped playing MMOs. Fast forward to Covid and WoW classic is out and I think oh yea let's relive those PVP days. Except.... it was never nearly as fun. It was already meta gamed. Everyone was way better than they used to be. No longer did I have a desire to pop into Warsong Gulch just because i had some time to kill and want to fight people, now the only reason to go in there is for the rewards. Pretty quickly I became a PVE andy. When TBC and Cata came out, I gave cursory attempts and trying to build arena teams, but it just was never 10% as fun as it was back in the day. Now I just don't really care for it. I would love to feel that feeling again, but just the way games are instantly broken down and meta gamed makes me also doubtful it will happen again in the setting of an MMO. Especially since, as you pointed out, there are now PURE PVP games that you can play to scratch that itch, and they are more varied than before. Back in the UO/EQ days, there was Counter-strike and that was about it. Now there's FPS', mobas, etc etc.
I think it’s possible but you need an indie dev to rethink what an mmo is supposed to look like. And mmo’s are not cheap, so it will take a while to trickle up from smaller indie titles to an actual big budget mmo
In relation to the pvp being so unoptimized in runescape back in the day, i remember when dungeoneering came out i made a killing on f2p honour deathmatches because they released an attachment to maple longbows that awarded them something like +125 accuracy, making the maple longbow the best dps in f2p pvp even when wearing full rune plate.
Hey mr. president. There was one game with a great PvP system - Lineage 2 (C6). Reason why you might not have known about it, cause it was more popular in Eastern Europe. Idea behind is simple, you can attack anyone, no factions, just free for all basically. You wouldn't lose any items, UNLESS you would kill someone without them hitting you back, in that case you'll end up getting "Karma" and would have a chance to drop random items from your inventory, but if he hits you back, no matter who wins, there were no penalty, well apart of losing a bit of exp. We would fight for farming spots constantly, sometimes there would be more PvP than mob killing, purely cause there were so many people there. You can look this system up, best PvP MMo/Rpg system I've ever experienced to this day.. and yes, this game is nearly 20 years old
i actually made designs for some good new battleground minigames for osrs and rs3. like for example in rs3, have a lvl system, everyone starts at lvl 1. and you can mine recourse, smith items, make potions, while another team kills ,monsters, takes control of control points (like in dawn of war) and prepares defences. while the other side uses the items to gear up, uses the slain slayer monsters to attack these control points. if you win, you get more points, but you can't hold out for long, you cant restock in the other persons area. the moment a team is "engaged" both teams can't get new items, if the enemy team wins, this system stays, so you need to go back and forth to gather your supplies back. the fun idea I had with this WAS the chaos, you can have everyone gather resources and just a few overpowered guys take control piints and that is fine. you can have the entire team fight with almost no resoucrs, and thats fine, you can steal them from the other team. there is no wrong way to play it, all you do is to play. the reason why everything is lvl 1 at the start is because you do have limited weapons and specials (rs3) you need to find your way, use range to ensare and get them, or magic to be powerfull, but slow. or melee, be tanking, but your damage can only be done one on one. and then I found out, that doing ALL OF THIS, and maintaining ALL OF THIS, is an entire game on itself, which is why for a lot of games, pvp is dying, it is just too much to make, maintain and handle. just look at osrs, they spend YEARS and it just did not work out. the concept of playing it for fun is gone because a couple of perfect players just decimate anyone trying to learn. groups of clans just go and mess your shit up before you could leanr, you need so many plugins that there is no hope for you to even try. it took me MONTHS to learn how to kill bosses in rs3, i am lovin it. but damn, i would hate to learn it, by dying, because I did not have the right plugins, wrong stats (oeps) or a new item that just came out that takes another acount to GET, because buying it will cost you a new morgage. a fix thou, for osrs, might be to focus on how to make it hard, for strong players to be in the field. maybe have them tagged. instead of tagging EVERYONE, as soon as you get a couple hundred kills, you get tagged, people can find you. this is resert every couple of months, call it an (event) or something.
So the conclusion you came to here is the conclusion I also came to. It's all its own thing. And that's fine! Pvp is great, but it usually deserves to be it's own game to really do it justice.
@@IdylOnTV you made great points on the pvp concept, it truly sucks that it did not work. and just like players, companies re not going to invest millions into fixing it anymore. it truly is dead, no mather how many concepts and fixes I can think of XD
More like death of PVP in established publishers, when there's surging emotions(like looking for something) + a gap in the market = someone would eventually makes them.
I remember back in 2006 or '07, my friends would get me supplies to level up my smithing to the point where I could smith full steel, equip that with our rune scimmies and just go to town in f2p lol
Lost over 1 billion on Albion because I got transported to the mist city. When I left I was put in a wilderness I never seen and lost everything lol never played again, i was ganked by a team of 50 and had no idea what I was doing
I’m surprised so many og RuneScape players/content creators have never played Tibia. Please give it a try one day! Granted I haven’t played it in a couple of years but it was my first mmo I played back in like ‘99.
I love the idea of open world pvp in wow specifically but it's almost completely based on just who has better gear and as of late wow moves so fast you never bump into other players anymore
I'm a very casual OSRunescape player who only uses the wildy when I really need it. I appreciate that the wildy has some nice rewards at the risk of being PK'd.
That's just a plain preference, not a take let alone a hot take. You need some assertion to turn an opinion into a take. _"X is Y"_ or _"IMO X is Y"_ etc.
The clans died. I was part of that scene all the way until eoc dropped. We did like 2 fights in eoc and everyone promptly quit. I can't speak for osrs, but my understanding is that clan pvp simply never recovered from it.
I think the only time I really had fun with PVP in an MMO was hunting cursed energy bots in RS3. Killing them, getting 200k worth of cursed energy, then trying to escape back to Edgeville without getting killed by someone else doing the same thing was a lot of fun - though it was more "very risky PvE" than true PVP.
Not really a PvPer but was wondering when you'd talk about Arena mode in WoW at least as it's the main PvP scene and has a good amount of players, felt like it covers objections like build and being full pvp and wished you covered what else you think about it on the video, so at the end just felt like an oversight.
Using the Unpragmatic Covers version of Boulevard of Broken Dreams was a really nice and fitting touch. I find that even though losing my stuff was more consequential and rebuilding took much longer back in the old days of Runescape, I minded less because you didn't have to be full-on with PVP to get lucky sometimes, the systems of it were simpler and you didn't need to put as much time and effort in to have a fighting chance... it was also before maxing out skills was anywhere near the norm lol
Honestly, I would genuinely love it if OSRS had a set of servers dedicated to PvE only, no PvP in the wilderness or anywhere outside of the dedicated minigames for it. I have never liked PvP, and once I reached a point where content I wanted to do and items I wanted to get where only found out in PvP locations I kinda just lost interest in the game because I don't want to be wandering about only for some PKer to come by and completely ruin my fun. having servers sectioned off for players like me would definitely convince me to give the game another go
Can confirm that I straight up never go do any wilderness content simply because I don't want to engage in pvp. Although I think the wilderness being the wilderness is part of what makes OSRS..OSRS.
I think pvp has a place in battlegrounds and arenas in World of Warcraft. Depending on the pop and the community of certain realms wpvp can be more acceptable than what was described here about many other games.
I think the best open-world PVP MMORPGs will be sandbox niche games, and that's ok. The private shard Ultima Online:Outlands has done it the best in my opinion, as it has an extremely robust PVE/roleplay world, but also open world FFA PVP. All towns are completely safe from PKs, and it's open world FFA PVP everywhere else. However if you attack an innocent players and get 5 kills, you become "red" and can be attacked freely by anyone without any repercussions and you can't go in cities. You also have a stacking penalty for each kill, where it becomes more and more expensive to rez if you die, and your killer gets part of that gold (nice gold sink too). You also can't commit any criminal action for a good while in the region you were in if you get killed. There's also a ton of organized PVP events, although I never participated in any of it. I just enjoy the dangerous world, even though I know i'm far from the majority. It also has an extremely robust PVE system with incredible build depth in a classless game, but almost all of it doesn't work in PVP, so you're never really "outleveled and outgeared" in PVP, which is amazing. Although you do drop everything that's not blessed on death, you do keep the important PVE stuff (codexes, spellbooks, skill progress). Almost all the PVE power you have comes from these personal skill systems that you level up over time, so what you drop is mostly the basic consumables and loot you got so far in your run. The player crafted gear is also excellent, and although you can risk it by buying the more expensive materials, the cheaper ones are almost as good and orders of magnitude cheaper (think 10x cheaper, but maybe 5% less good). So dying and dropping stuff isn't the end of the world. Despite all this, it's of course still an extremely niche game and it's not for everyone. But is that really a bad thing? The server has been going strong for 5 years now, and more popular than ever. Devs are absolutely amazing, the community is for the most part great and very supportive of new players, of which there's a surprising number. The second expansion is about to come out. When you have 2-3k players logged in at all times and the server has players everywhere playing in all sorts of different ways, that's all that matters to me as a player. It looks like Ashes of Creation is going for a somewhat similar system to manage PK penalties and i'm very curious to see how it'll unfold. As for more mainstream MMORPGs, I prefer when there's just a handful of always-on FFA PVP servers where you can just go nuts in an unbalanced environment. Again it's a niche playstyle, but that's why everyone that doesnt like PVP can play on PVE servers (possibly with a PVP toggle on/off). I would have loved New World to release at least one FFA, always-on PVP server. I'd go back and start again at lvl 1 in a heartbeat if they released one. Maybe one day :)
I had an idea for open world PvP where you would get a debuff that lowers you to the level of the person you killed. Not just stats but also abilities, the debuff would also continue to lower you one level at a time until you are killed. Once killed, instead of spawning at the graveyard, you would spawn at a specific area with a vendor for rewards offering buffs consumables and also gear. I'd also say the cursed player is aggro to everyone as to avoid assistance.
Your take about pvprs not enjoying a free kill is dead wrong. I challenge you to go to multi in the wildly and not get curbstomped by teams that take a 3 way split on 50k loot.
One thing to remember about pking in 2007 is that things like pathing were really different from modern OSRS. I have a feeling it would take a little adjusting to go back to those servers.
Really enjoyed this video. Lots of agreements on my end. Also remember being on 1Mbps cable internet while 80% of others on dial-up doing open world full loot pvp in UO. Always hidden advantages to be had lol
I think the only reason I've always gravitated towards MMO's that have open world PVP, is because the extra added element of danger and the "social" aspect of making enemies/friends. That being said, my favorite MMO of all time FFXI basically had no PVP, and I didn't actually know that was a thing that people did until WoW came along. I hate first person shooters, but I love games like Chiv 2 and Mordhau which is where I believe "MMO type PVP" thrives.
PvP needs to be presented in a specific manor and most just sling it in there all willy nilly :) Also PvP needs to be molded for the actual gameplay loop which no studio till now does. In the lands of PENANCE PvP is presented in a multitude of ways. You will chose your style and level of PvP from the minute to minute interlock systems to out right stabbing someone in the face. Much love from the PENANCE team!
Risk vs Reward is s super overrated incentive system that everyone seems to think they want. People are way more risk adverse, they will remember the losses way harder than the potential rewards. Risk vs Reward does not create a healthy PvP environment.
@@CouchWarrior561 nice post, believe or not runescape is the most dangerous pvp type game, its one of the few games where if you kill someone you get the majority of their stuff. Healthy pvp to these folks is pvp where you don't risk anything at all and just fight. Folks think osrs pvp is dangerous in multi/single zone, in RUNESCAPE classics it was multi everywhere and protection prayers only worked if a person ranged you. Thats what makes runescape pvp exciting you can die or kill other for loot. But what you have is folks want to go in a pvp environment in a game, and then have the pkers leave them alone so they can get cool gear/loot or kill bosses. This how games dies when companies lisent to these types of players, they ruin their game, then these players flood other games almost like a virus. Mind you its peoples opinion and they have a right to voice the changes they want to game. But in most cases their not practical or care about the health of said game. And i quote- @Kngofkngs 6 months ago LMS is great PvP in OSRS. It’s nice being able to participate in PvP without the risk of losing my shit. PvP in its current state should be limited to PvP worlds only. Forcing PvPers to play against PvPers instead of preying on players just after the cool items the Wildy has to offer.
It took 27 minutes, but you did finally make the same argument I always do about osrs pvp. I've played since 2004, and the pking issue has and always will be power creep. People are definitely better at it now, but that would be entirely irrelevant if we were in a 2005 metagame where the only real way to stack somebody out in a single game tick was with a gmaul combo. It's truly in 2006 with 1h crossbows, void, dbow, lunars, and rfd gloves that things began to get out of hand. These things were all massive spikes in player power, and the power creep just kept snowballing from there with gwd(specifically ags) the next year. But hey, I'm just an out of touch runescape boomer. Clearly.
Osrs PvP accessibility; start a decade and a half ago. 😂 “It’s so ugly! Why did you do this Jagex?!”. The desperation and sincerity in that hit me deep in my soul. I agree. As much as you can possibly agree. 😂
Open world PVP is mostly fixed by Private servers(with high rates) being able to max out quicker than your average game. If one of the gatekeepers was being high level and gear, your average private servers resolves that
@@tottorookokkoroo5318 Friend what game shot you up to the highest level instantly? basic private servers has multiplied XP gain for starters, so I technically played through them. Even private servers cared for longevity. What private servers did u play? You're starting to sound sus knowing very little if not none about private servers. What PS did you ever played?
@@MangaGamified Dude i have played tons of different mmos and even with regular xp rate you often have to skip leveling zones. If you increase the exp by 2x or 5x or 10x obviously you can do just a fraction of the zones before you are overleveled. This is just such a basic thing you would understand even if you have never played an mmo. Sure you can do level scaling of the content but that sucks. This idea of just rushing into end game to play the "real" game is ruining mmos, most of the game and fun is typically in the leveling process so speeding it up is just not a good idea.
For me the primary deterrent to getting into PVP is the knowledge that once I step off that cliff, I'm going to lose thousands of hours of grinding my personal skill on top of needing to grind for the best gear for whichever form of PVP I am engaging in. I suffer delusions that I could probably do pretty well at PVP if I'm willing to pull the 500 plus hour learning curve time investment, but I just can't pull the trigger on a time investment like that willingly. I find specifically old school PvP enticing, but not enough to set foot in the wilderness against demons like Dino or the other content creators i watch. The sheer volume of precision clicking and decision making going on is something that is paralyzingly overwhelming
The only RuneScape PVP I remember enjoying was my free to play range/r2h pures from 2006-2007, now THAT is a skill level I could understand then and now XD Great video as always, Idyl
I do a bit of on and off osrs pvp. Most people are nowhere near that level of play/I have yet to run into a single curb stomp fight. A lot of people can't even manage a simple pvp prayer swap. The skill level most people operate at is very modest. For gear - this is where budgeting comes in. PvP with full drops usually means never running around in the best gear, but instead using the most economic gear where losing it won't really hurt that much as it can be easily replaced. In such a way, you never risk your thousands of hours (tis would be madness!) Only what ya feel comfortable in using, that lets you get away with the level of nonsense needed. And if you die - you just shrug, replace it, and carry on. PvP is basically a game of risk evaluation, where one needs to know they aren't that good and thus ought to not risk anything unless they don't feel anything for losing the stuff in question. It's basically ya win some, ya lose some. But I am curious. If you can indulge me, and ignoring anything, I said: What is your feel based guesstimate for the common skill level of pvp'ers? Do you feel like all of them are amazing and great? Does the threat of running into an absolute juggernaut feel more intimidating on its own, than probably dealing with 9/10 times pretty simple stuff? And talking win rates....what do you suspect the common win rate of encounters of your typical average tier pvp player to be?
@@videocrowsnest5251 I am happy to explain myself a little further. I don't actually think that those time commitments I stated or grinding for the best gear are hard requirements of getting into any level of PVP by any stretch. Rereading what I said it's easy to see how it came across that way though. I just am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to games requiring personal skill, and I know that if I start to PVP I will never be happy with myself until I am performing at a very high level, which is where the hundreds or thousands of hours that I threw around would come out. I don't really know why I brought up gear because I know it's just a balancing act of risk vs reward. Most people who aren't the ultra sweats are not risking more than a few million GP at most, and many people risk significantly less than that especially while learning. I don't think the average PKer is even close to that skill level either, of course. By definition If you're fighting equally skilled and geared players you would win only 50% of the time, so I imagine the average win rate for an average PKer is actually below 50% because they will not always be fighting a fair fight against an equal opponent, sometimes their opponent will significantly outgear them or outskill them. This whole conversation is ignoring the fact that massive clans will just dogpile people that they can push into multi or catch unaware, small team passing people off or clan pking is a whole different thing that I would be frustrated with lol. Even just for 1v1s, the outliers at the top end of the skill spectrum are going to have wildly inflated success rates which push the average down. The problem I have is a personal one, because I would only feel like I was succeeding if I could push myself into that higher skill bracket. I would be extremely frustrated even with a 50% success rate, because all I would see are the mistakes that I make. So for me, my PVP journey would either be forever frustrating, or consume a huge amount of my time until I'm playing at a very high level. The idea of running into one of those juggernauts isn't really even that scary honestly because there's no way I'd be risking the amounts that they are. To try to put up a good fight against a dino or eliop or something would be more of an honor than anything else, as long as I don't just get completely steamrolled which could obviously happen lol. It kind of boils down to, "I don't know if I want to open that box because I don't know if I have the time to see it through in a satisfactory way"
Wow classic pvp was so good and its never been the same ever since. No other mmo could match it. It had a perfect combo of open world, battle grounds, a grindy ranking system, and most importantly ZERO SWEATY HYPER META ARENAS WITH HUGE BARRIER TO ENTRY.
2003 to 2007 runescape pking scene. I was there. Anti rushing claws, pking 100m godswords. Owning the high lvls who think they're better. Taste vengeance!
I feel like with PVP you can't have rewards that make you stronger over time or it's no longer about skill. Pretty much every successful PVP game starts everyone out in a match with access to the same things. Which is like the opposite of being high level in an MMORPG
I love game design. I love your videos. I also love permanent deadman mode and played it for over two years and have a max cape there and shared this video with all my DMM friends. You’re absolutely right it’s completely dead, but I really enjoy the thrill of the hunt. :) And I don’t mean the thrill of hunting - I’m dogshit at PvP. I meant the thrill of being hunted. Trying to outsmart the incredibly talented and organized PvPers out there by utilizing dead content and other clever strategies. And eventually I found other people there who really enjoyed focusing on skilling and quests and minigames and collection logs! I made a lot of good friends there. :) I mean. I set down osrs indefinitely a few weeks ago. But it still warms my heart to see people talk about permanent dmm even if you only have negative things to say and they’re basically all true XD
Whenever someone talks about how great open world PvP is, I think of the first week of the PvP system implemented in WoW Classic. Just full armies camping flight points. And full armies randomly murdering every individual they see. Super fun. Top tier gaming. Peak skill. Stuff we'll be talking about as peak gaming in 20 years.
If I want PvP I load up Mordhau, Elden Ring, any one of a massive list of fighting games. The Wildy is just stressful, especially as I play an Ironman. The risk is huge, the reward is middling, and no amount of rskill can make my account benefit from getting jumped.
That last bit in the video to keep people watching your patreon followers list was genius IMO. I never watch those lists, but since its funny I decided to stay!
The MMO with the healthiest relation with PvP is GW2 (I love the game but even if I didn't I would say it). You can get PvE rewards from playing both sPvP and WvW. sPvP gear is also completely equalized and pretty easy to find casual matches. WvW uses your own gear but its not hard to get a good build going..
I played Mortal Online quite a bit and I disagree about there being no progression because as you mentioned other aspects being player driven the same applies to your own progression , whether its starting out and learning all the lore, starts a profession and becoming proficient at it, or getting better at the combat system itself that is all progression Once you learn those systems the reward of being able to be self sufficient makes a huge difference. In a game like mortal the solo experience is not for the feint of heart but that doesnt mean you should be an outright loner. The amount of solo players who have also befriend others that essentially help one another are how they have found a way to get through the world and thrive. I think the best way to experience mortal is with a small group of friends or players because what most people dont understand and from my own experience 5-10 players can easily take on outnumber fights and be very proficient at it, the reason why you dont see it as often is because it relys on players fulfilling certain roles in a fight that some players just dont want to outright do at all and they rather just outnumber and "zerg" groups down with lackluster skill involved. Some might not like it but a good player with more skill in mortal can "outplay" you with little to no gear to some degree and I think thats also one of the beauties of the game. The game has a lot of politics that you doesn't necessarily have to learn but you should at least be aware of what guilds frequent certain areas of the map and either befriend them to your benefit or prepare yourself to fight them regularly while occupying their area.
as a wow player i only really do pvp for the cosmetics and bonus rewards you get from world quests when in war mode, but it's extremely funny as a blood death knight. sorry my health bar is so big and succulent.
As a pretty casual gamer - I like pvp. I think it should be in every game, if possible. There are ways to irk out a lead in any competition and balancing is truly impossible, but video games make it a safe space to experiment. And when you win, it feels great. If losing feels terrible, you're playing the game wrong. Good video, I liked your closing argument even though I kind of disagree with it.
I started in tbc, but it wasnt my main game until late 2010, and i have only taken two breaks, the end of cata and the middle of wod i would drop the game if they removed/abandoned pvp. edit: valid af
before you leave that mean comment remember i am attacking YOU PERSONALLY if you enjoy PVP.
As someone who enjoys pvp, I’m unfortunately going to have to take this L as I cant make a response video nearly as high quality as this
Im just here to let everyone know its not gay to kiss the homies goodnight.
you have interesting ideas on game design, I think that runescape is limited by its mechanics on why it cant have good PvP like you said
Everything is a personal attack thats why you cant call jews genociders
I just look at BDO - the whole game is focused toward gearing up for PVP and people are just not playing the PVP anymore (outside of streamers and 5 randoms)
I’m wondering if I’ll get as much hate as you will for this video on this comment alone lol
8:01 "I did like the video, because I do hate school"
That's a bold thing to admit when you are being sponsored by a school.
Everything balanced, as it should be.
Let the man make his bag. At least he's not plugging shitty rapper earbuds with no midrange
The nostalgia flashbang of using that old free license song that was insanely common in like 2010 era youtube tutorials
"best royalty free song" search did not let me down
Holy fuck indeed, the nostalgia hit I did not know I wanted that much^^
Does anyone know the name of the 8-bit song at 19:48?
@@erules7701 Undertale OST - Fallen Down
Timestamp for the track you're all talking about plz? :)
When the 3 "R"s came up i was definitely expecting racism as one of them.
Your thinking of king Condor
Yeah, the fact that PVP has all these problems before mentioning the fact that beating people up for their lunch money is something only the shittiest people want to do, leading to the worst people imaginable flocking to a playstyle already disliked by the rest of the playerbase, really drives home the point.
@@Frommerman Yeah mmorpgs don't need to cater to all gameplays, if I want to pvp... I just go play cs2 or ow2 or literally any other game actually designed for pvp.
I was thinking "retard" because of the wildy clans 😅
that's R zero
I can't believe you only have ~45k subs. You've been coming out with some absolute bangers! Keep up the great work
Just wait for that Asmon reaction
Surely he already has lmao
Hes branched into wow dives a few times now @userdata5023
@userdata5023 yeah then he will gain ~5 subs lmao
When it feels like the channel has less subscribers than it deserves, it's a good sign.
In my opinion its an unsolvable problem because the people that want mmo pvp don't want skill based combat, they want their infinite hours to give them free wins against others. Its the same logic that basically all open world pvp is just griefing instead of fair fights. PvP and MMORPGs are just wholly incompatible; PvP says "lets find out whos best on a level playing field" and MMORPGs say "lets reward players with power for their time".
Like CoD and Fortnite would be unplayable if you got more hp and damage for each match you played, it would be a game only for those with no lives.
PvP lost a lot when it went from more or less a way to show off how powerful your items and character were to much more skill based systems most games have now. When you get killed by somebody who has the cool items you want you don't feel bad and understand why you got killed really easily. Their reward is the power flex and your penalty is basically nothing in a battleground or a couple of running back in the open world.
Games and gamers now can easily get all the best and most meta items because times have changed. People used to guard secrets and strong builds back in the day because that was the most beneficial thing to do. Now with streams and socials it's way more beneficial to share that stuff so all the best info gets out there. He makes some great points about changing the focus to something else now, and I agree with him.
@@pulleyfm8585 Didn't notice or hardly notice a problem about the accessibility of open world PVP, I played MU private servers the longest out of any MMORPG's, cause you get stronger so quick there. And you can fight the like top 1% of players there, except the top 0.5 whales of course.
The problem with pure PVP focused games(like battle royales) is the APM, you can't chill or take a piss or drink a coffee cause there's always action, not saying it's bad but you're not always on the mood to move all the time.
@@MangaGamifiedstarted playing mu myself on a private server in january, full pvp server, works out great with no cash shop. It's incredibly fun but there are always a couple people who play only to kill and inconvenience noobs who can not fight back.
I remember trying to use the fighter jets in Battlefield 3 as a kid and being upset because everyone else had homing missiles but I only had the machine guns, and you could only level up and unlock the missiles by getting kills with the jet. It felt bad to be losing at PvP not just because of skill, but because the other player had tools that I wasn’t allowed to try because I hadn’t played as much as them.
Like you said, I think MMOs have a similar problem; it feels bad to lose because your opponent grinded for a better account, and it feels bad to grind for a better account if you can’t use it in PvP. You can’t easily please both players at once.
@@jacobmaruth3598 Talking about multiplayer in general, Unlocked all is not an all-in-one solution either, when some players get better and get pitted against better players, they'll just make a new account. They can keep repeating cause there's nothing to lose. In a perfect world in a controlled environment, unlock-all is obviously the better choice, but you know that's not the case.
I think no multiplayer is perfect, publishers just has to pick the lesser evil.
As an OSRS player with a single character, knowing there’s people who have PvP specific alts whose skills are specifically built to pk for lower level areas is enough for me
That just sounds like a failure of the combat system tbh. Developers should make sure that every type of build is viable. And if it isn't, that's just poor balancing.
@@Trolldamere believe it or not they were viable in RuneScape classics where mage/range was more of support damage and you had three rounds combat system, which made pker/pure accounts weaker vs mains.
@@grandcanyon2 Yeah. That sucks. Lol. They had 20+ years to fix it and just sat on their hands the whole time. It's embarrassing.
@@Trolldamere now they can't adjust because they will fuck up peoples combat levels. And if they adjust you will basically have all players as mains and no pk/pvp accounts. Runescape classics 3 round system along with range and magic just being support damage fixed all those problems.
A lvl 75 main in runescape classics in pvp stre would be around lvl 62 if all the attack ,stre, def were about the same plus having 41 prayer aka the standard.
He would be able to hit a 24 max damage with dragon battle axe and prayer and super str potion. Vs a pker account who could hit a 36 max damage. In a three round system the main account would have a chance as the attack lvls and def would wear down the pker account.
And a pker account at combat lvl 75 would have about 85 hp vs the main account which would have about 72 hp. BOth players are combat lvl 75.
24x 3 is 72
36x3 is 108
all in combat the health pools the main has a decent chance to win the fight.
@@grandcanyon2 Look it's cool and all that you wrote a lil' phd dissertation over here, but my point is that the game just shouldn't BE like that in the first place. People like runescape because it's unique compared to other mmos in that you're not stuck with a choice you made on day 1. Every player is intended to be able to do all the content and train all their skills and experience *everything* the game has to offer on *one* account.
But Andrew Gower fucked up on day 1 with the combat system, when people started figuring out that an account is better when you *don't* actually train defense. That is stupid, plain and simple. Andrew should have fixed it back in 2001. The game just should not be like that, period. People shouldn't be punished for training all their skills. But he fucked up, he didn't tweak the combat system when he had the chance, and now we're stuck with it. People only like it because they get to prey on noobs who didn't min-max their accounts in the wilderness. It's bullshit. That's my whole point.
I think that the main issue with pvp in a MMORPG also fails whenver devs try and make it because the pvp player in general does not want a fair fight, they want a fight that they have a massive advantage on so whenever a pvp mode comes out that that is fair it becomes dead content to any pvp player.
This reminds me of GW2. In it there's the fair pvp mode(Gear doesn't matter) known as PvP and its under populated and never has a queue to join.
Meanwhile the open world pvp mode called World vs World (WvW) that makes gear matter and lets you effectively auto win by getting a massive hoard of teammates, is fair the more popular game mode. WvW also routinely gets long join queues for specific maps that they had to make a mini map known as the edge of the mists for the overflow players.
Yeah, the idea that pvp players want a fair and interesting fight is way off base in my opinion, most of the time they seem like they just want to prey on people unprepared to fight back. All the luring in RuneScape being a great example.
Exactly. Look at the fuss the Elden Ring PvPer's put up about not being able to invade people. Their fun is in ruining other's game experience, not in a test of skill.
Eso was not like that. The general pvp player wants there to be a skill cap. Which might make it unfair for the unskilled, but it is something that makes your time worthwhile.
@kristoferprovencal3608 you're taking a vocal minority and generalizing to a bigger group.
Being ganked is not fun .
As someone who was ganked for 6hrs on his first visit in STV on some private server I hate non-consensual PvP in MMO. I like to play shooters where it's main focus, but if I want to hit my "do this world quest 20 times" in WoW achievement I just do it in the dry seasons.
"I think most pvpers would like to be challenged more" osrs wildy pk teams will disagree. They only thing they want is powertripping, because there isnt even alot of money to be made pking compared to pvm
The real PvP was the battle between PvE- and PvP-fans all along.
I've played MMOs since 2006 and I'm not an MMO PvP enjoyer. The appeal of MMOs to me always lay in the social aspects of the genre. Meeting new people, building social groups and doing fun activities together.
To me PvP runs counter to that side of the game. The fact that PvP rewards are unlocked by reaching predefined milestones set by the developers tends to put players at odds with one another, and leads to players having to perpetually work at improving their skills. If a member of the group isn't as invested as the rest of the group they're likely to be ejected from the group because they're not good enough.
That social dynamic is not very healthy, and I wish that more MMO players would take a step back and examine how they allow the game to shape their attitudes towards other people and the game.
I've played thousands of hours in other PvP games like Dota, CoD and CS because those games facilitate PvP extremely well. It's a core element of those games. But MMO PvP could never hold my interest. It's just not the strength of the genre.
Based take ❤️
Wait, you're telling me that it's toxic to expect everyone else in the game should be doing the same 16-20 hour a day 3 month long PvP grind? How are they going to get the best gear then??
Honestly though, now that you mention it.. I realize my most fun times with PvP in MMOs was when it was darn near silly role play lol. Silly role play that was always eventually ruined by a giga sweat lord coming in and flexing their 5 million hour grind.
PvP is the social aspect tho. Me standing around following ikea directions with my friends is boring.
In fairness, at least with WoW, this same dynamic has happened in PvE. After seeing what has happened with Classic, it's clear that PvE content that's too hard also splits friend groups. While I do that that there needs to be some difficulty, I think it needs to be more what I call "RPG hard" where more stats will eventually win you the day. Not mechanically hard like they've made them. IMO, the hardest raids in WoW should be roughly the same as Sunwell.
Something to remember about Ultima Online the entire economy was based around open world pvp, so losing your gear meant the players who only played as a blacksmith would have income. Crafting was an entire template so they could really only make money off if other players purchasing gear multiple times.
Also reaching "max level" was mostly trivial in the beginning because it was skill point based not actually levels. The best gear was also easily obtained so the accessibility was nearly instant even for high skill play.
Power creep has set in fully with the retail release and pvp could take years before a player has enough gold to even attempt it now. A free version of Ultima Online called Outlands has done some pretty great things to return the game to a state where the original pattern is still recognizable as far as open world pvp is concerned.
You are absolutely right that accessibility is the main key for pvp to be accepted by the player base. Reaching comparable level, getting multiple load outs of gear, and allowing players to keep jumping back in are things that can be achieved but the focus on pvp has to be there from the beginning. Mixing high end pve such as ,mega bosses, and increasingly powered gear with brutal pvp only works for a little while as players are learning the game and still trying to level up.
A true fan falls asleep to Idyl's silky smooth voice, providing one entire uninterrupted view. And THEN rewatches later to actually absorb the information. And then comments for engagement.
Something similar happened with destiny 2, there was 2 weapons that were exclusive rewards from hours of pvp, that were the best weapons in pvming, and so it resulted in a lot of pvmers just being angry and frustrated that they were forced to interact with the pvp. I believe the dev response was to just make the pvp weapons shit from then on.
Happened in WoW too, during Mists of Pandaria. The legendary cloak required several PvP wins, and the cloak was generally a PvE item. Which resulted in a lot of PvEers growing dissatisfied on the forums and other places. Only to be met with the oh-so-common "git gud". I was a PvPer at the time and had a lot of fun rolling over the inexperienced PvEers, but looking back I was probably being a jerk.
@oliverwilhelm6171 if anything it exposed that most pvpers get bis then don't touch rated until next season. Just stomping noobs or playing other games
21:43 Yes. That's why a majority of them will seal club the second they get the opportunity. Seal clubbers are the target audience of MMORPG PVP or really any other high-risk PVP game with no matchmaking. They don't care about getting an engaging fair fight, they just want to annihilate someone who has no idea what's happening so they can feel like their hours were worth it. That's why Git Gud is their go-to response.
The funniest part to me is that a lot of average PvP'ers will hyper fixate on those extremely rare moments where they overcame a single huge disadvantage, but then completely forget the 100 other situations where they brutally lost in the exact same, or worse, scenario.
Because all their ego needed was that one little boost
"The fun was optimized out of the game"
Yeah, that's what MMO's feel like a lot of the time nowdays, especially older ones like WoW.
New World is a fine example of a new MMO that was optimized before it even launched!
Yup. I tried WoW for the first time with Season of Discovery. It was great until I hit the level 25 cap in phase 1, and tried raiding. I was raiding with a good group so it went smoorhly, but I didn't understand why I was doing anything and didn't want to have to do research to learn the meta.
I've since quit because playing WoW as a new player is like showing up to the Tour de France with a cheap Canadian Tire bike. Everyone else has been training daily for 20 years and is wearing all the best biking gear.
@@GothixZa Why I don't watch all the tutorials/meta discussion and just mess around.
Way better for my mental health, than obsessing over the latest "bests"
@@Doombringer55 well starting with Season of discovery is literally a recipe for confusion. Its like loading up an expansion pass before playing a base game and complaining its too complicated.
Personally, as someone trying to get into RS in 2024, that feels much more like the Tour de France than learning what stats and spells to use and press in WoW. Literally cant do shit without a wiki open beside me.
@@Doombringer55 Wait what's the problem? It sounds like the raid went well.
Dogs go "bark"
cows go "moo"
MMORPG players go "the pvp is unbalanced!"
Turns out, games that have you stand still to use half of your abilities that are just canned animations with damage properties and minute-long crowd control meant to fight bosses that take 50 people to defeat, and where your power level is based on how long you've spent grinding for gear with bigger numbers aren't that fun to fight other players in.
Who would have thought?
Yeah, WoW is for nerds.
Im supprised you didnt mention EVE Online. since they have a neat balance of PvP.
"How do I avoid PVP in EVE?"
"Don't log in."
Not mentioning EVE kinda shows that he doesn't know anything about full loot PvP in MMORPGs. EVE is literally the best example of how to do open-world PvP properly. EVE has been around since 2003 and has nailed open-world PvP ever since. The open-world PvP of EVE is so good that Albion Online literally copied it, and thanks to this, Albion Online is now thriving. That's how you do open-world PvP, period.
The problem with EvE PVP, as I understand it, is its ubiquity. Players who enjoy that get to have it, but it drives off players who don't want all PvP all the time. So it works because everyone who doesn't want it is gatekept from thw game entirely.
@@Frommerman Hmm so people who don't like the premise of the game are not playing it? Wooow!
probably because this guy has only played osrs new world and wow since every single point he has made applies to them and not acutal pvp mmos lmao
I think your final message sums it all up really well, and does a good job representing my experience. When I was playing ffxiv, I enjoyed the pvp because it was a casual style of pvp in a casual kind of game, I was able to get decent and hold my own because the skill ceiling was an appropriate height to where the best players still had advantages, but every now and then I could get a run going. I also play osrs and the pve is open and lets me be a casual, but I won’t even go near pvp in that. I appreciate the skill set it takes to be good, but I want nothing to do with it
I just miss spamming random battlegrounds in WoW sooo much bro. 😭
You still can?
@zoonal-gg too many pre-mades these days
Tbh this is why I loved PvP private servers in WoW, such as arena tournament, or battleground focused servers. Everyone started at max level and okay starting gear. You had progression, but a very skilled player in starting gear could still beat a bad player in maxed out gear. Had just the right balance of skill vs progression. If you lost a BG it was not the end of the world and you could still have fun. Nowadays everything has to be sweaty and ranked, which is such a turnoff when you just want to enjoy the game.
Surprised and disappointed that you didn't talk about Albion Online, because I know you played it!! (stares in 34-minute Idyl review). I would honestly consider Albion the premier PVP MMO of today. Sure it hasn't solved every problem of open world PVP (which truly is a cursed game design problem), but it is the best blending of both PVP and MMO I've ever seen.
For those that don't know, the game introduces PVP to new players gradually and in safe environments, gradually ramping up both the risk and reward until you're ready and _wanting_ to enter the full loot deathzones. And it addresses the issue of dying all alone by sectioning entire parts of the game as "solo PVP only", "small group PVP", and "massive siege battle PVP", each one with their own fleshed out mechanics and rewards. You get to be a lone wolf if you want, but you also get to choose when to group up, and are greatly rewarded for it by gaining access to whole new game experiences.
The most recent time I got pked in osrs was when I was 4-iteming a clue step and some sweat started freezing, vengancing, and like swapping overheads like a madman. I didn't even lose anything, but that experience just completely turned me off the the idea of pking in osrs. Ceiling is too high and I don't have time to learn all the tick perfect clicking required to get a good pk
I just bought my rune pouch at the GE, instead of grinding Last Man Standing 😅
bro the music right at the start really set the vibe
Great video Idyl! I think that pvp with default gear sets or loadouts often results in a complete detachment to your character- I agree. At the same time, pvp systems without this "equalize the playing field" results in unfair situations where now, to even engage in PvP, you have to grind for the optimal gearing to even attempt to learn PvP. A compromise has to be in order and I haven't seen many games try to implement something like removing enchantments, consumables, and other "extra" factors in order to make gearing necessary but not overly tedious. Elder Scrolls Online, for example, runs into the issue that you really need to grind quite a bit to get pvp gear sets with the optimal traits (that require time to research), and enchants. In this case, a good idea would be to disable enchants and traits and make gearing necessary, but not extremely tedious. I also do think that, this combined with a PvP arena (like 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, etc) would be a good way for players to learn to play PvP without the barrier of entry being too large and at the same time, still preserve that attachment to one's character. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something.
PvP is incredibly hard to incorporate in an MMORPG and I think to do so requires some serious creativity on the developer's part. Ashes of Creation is trying to handle open world PvP with their Karma system but I'm not sure how that can work.... Another issue with open world PvP that you touched on is emergent behavior. Developers cannot predict how players, on mass, will behave over time. This is the issue with emergent gameplay that inherently involves disruptive player to player interaction.
MMO-RPGS are about increasing your character power, if you cant do that in pvp then there isnt even a reason to have pvp in there either.
MU online solves PVP by disallowing quick/instant travel, be attacked by powerful guards(or something like towers) that bypasses resistances and is a percent of max HP. and most if not all NPC won't do business with them, tho to remove "phonomania" status you have to pay a really huge sum of gold, even higher than crafting the best weapons.
I don't play wow so don't quote me on that, but it's such a simple and if I dare say genius way of making people 2nd guess of killing other players.
i see idyl video, i click like button
i see positive comment, i click like button.
U bot
I recently found the channel and I've developed this mindset sp im still up at 6am to watch new idyl video lol.
Using this audio in the beginning of the video while already reminiscing on early gaming memories is setting my nostalgia meter to levels I hadn't experienced since the re-release of OSRS lmao
if you didnt know the name its called Trance - 009 Sound System Dreamscape
@@Tranewrekk thank you! It was in my playlist somewhere but it's been so long I couldn't recall the name right away, but the heart recognizes these tunes immediately haha
All could be fixed with more rewarding pvp. You can’t tell me that if bdo on console came out with a new 5v5 tournament style mode with pearl rewards, leaderboards, and gear payouts the environment wouldn’t change fore the better. Reward players for pvp. Open world. Node wars. Siege. Rbf. All of it. Not just some minor silver that will get thrown down the drain trying to enhance gear. Albion Online is pretty good for pvp but it lacks in character design and mechanics compared to most other games. If bdo and Albion Online had a baby, that would be a great game.
Something that resonated with me from the video was the mention of how battlegrounds have been optimized into being stomped by groups of coordinated players. I was wondering what made this new battleground mode in an MMO I like start to sour with time, and I see that the thing that has changed with time is that, as a solo queuer, I am increasingly faced with teams of 5 who use coordinated meta tactics that cannot be combatted with random teammates. It's taken a lot of the fun out of it, since a team of 5 is inaccessible to me, and the issue is compounded by the fact that all of the progression in the current seasonal event is tied to this battleground mode, forcing me into this pretty disheartening cycle.
Maps should have narrow corridors where people can only go in/out one at a time, allies also can't go through over/under their allies, if you had watched 300 Spartans you know what I mean.
An obvious fix would be to have separate queues for randoms and groups. But of course the obvious fix is something that will never occur to Blizzard.
@@Nipah.Auauau The downside is that you punish people queueing as teams with much longer wait times. Since it's 5v5, there's also the difficulty of whether a team of 4 should be in random queue or against 5 person teams, etc.
@@oposdeo I was more thinking of larger battlegrounds like Arathi Basin, but to answer your question whenever a designer is given an opportunity to make metaslaves suffer, they should always do so. There could also be a team-size limit on randoms so 2manning with your friend would still put you in the randoms queue.
Also, doesn't arena have dedicated 3v3 etc. or did they get rid of those?
@@Nipah.Auauau I'm talking about some random MMO, I don't play any Blizzard games.
On the subject, you DON'T want to punish 5 player teams, as that's the most desirable and intended way to play the game, not joining randoms. Nothing about having a team of friends to play with makes you a meta-slave or whatever, and in many cases, those players are the most engaged with your game.
For team size limits, you still have a problem. If only 1 and 2 player teams can be in the random queue, what do you do about a 4 person team? They need a solo queuer to make 5, but you've segregated solo queuers from the team games. Same thing for a 3 pairing with a 2. It's not that simple.
The game I'm specifically talking about already had pretty long queue times sometimes, so exacerbating the issue isn't ideal. There's some other downsides from segregating players in this way. As a solo queuer, I would definitely prefer to play with other solo queuers, but it's not always that simple, particularly when you want to encourage team play.
>Blizzard's Plunderstorm BR
>high skill combat
Best joke of the week.
i'm kind of a jokester
Yea right up there with yet another inane dig at Plunderstorm.
@@wolfspirit12223fellas, we found the one plunderstorm enjoyer
@radthepaisley it seem like plunderstorm enjoyers are the majority
PvP skill level is kinda set by the community around the activity. Even if a game has complex and difficult mechanics, PvP can still be easy if the playerbase are bad at it. The opposite also applies if the game is easy and simple, but the players are extremely skilled in it.
Early UO Days Full Loot PvP was just the standart. When MMOs changed to themepark ( and used gear as motivation and character progress) the formula didn't work because no one wants to loose weeks of time invested.
Nowadays Albion does a nice job. With full loot and non full lot options. Also gear has the same value as Buff food in other games.
I'm honestly shocked you didn't look into Elder Scrolls Online, as I think it's original PvP system of a war campaign map and the Imperial City/Sewers is a good take one open world PvP! Especially with certain campaigns putting everyone at the same level cap, forcing the game into a real test of skill and prep, as opposed to just having higher numbers!
There is a really cool niche open-world faction PvP MMO that I've enjoyed playing called StalCraft. It's an MMO set in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R universe with a "half-loot" PvP system, that I think solves some of the issues you mentioned. You go on expeditions out of your safe zone to gather materials that can be sold, equipped, or used to upgrade your gear, but if you are killed by a member of another faction, they can take your loot. However you will never lose your gear that you have spent hours grinding for. You lose your ammo, consumables, and the items you gathered on your expedition. So at most, you're risking some money you spent on supplies, and on the spoils of your expedition. It makes the entire gameplay experience more tense and exciting due to the looming risk of PvP, but you don't get too disheartened by dying, because you're only losing the progress you made since leaving the safe zone. And you also feel motivated to kill enemies because you can get their spoils and make your trip more profitable. As an FPS, it's also easy to understand and get into PvP. You never have to feel bad equipping your best gear because you know it's safe, which makes progression more satisfying.
Tried runescape as a teen looking for a break from wow. Spent a month farming a Robin hood set and finally found my first clue. It took me into the wilderness and right as I was about to finish it I got killed. That cause me to quit and never touch a pvp game again lol
"The R is silent, shut up"
lmao got me good.
As a PvPer of 20 years you hit the nail on the head wpvp is what is good about mmo PvP I expected to be mad at this video but you nailed it.
Most people looking in from the outside fail to get this point
I think the natural progression out of pvp in MMOs are the newer pvp focused games, such as Dark and Darker and Escape from Tarkov. Not MMO's but still offer lots of player interactions while delivering a sense of exploration. Dark and Darker also really taps into the RPG experience with the class system. As much as I love osrs pvp I can agree it's not growing, the barrier of entry is just way too high to attract new players. The latest Deadman mode, however, was a ton of fun, so hopefully they keep doing those as it can be a good entry point to learning the mechanics without risking losing anything on your main account. Either way I really liked the video, and am hopeful that PVP won't ever go away entirely from MMO's because I'd stop playing them at that point. For me it's an important reason to play them, once I've saturated the PVE content I want to progress to the big leagues, and I can't imagine anything will ever be more challenging than facing other players.
DMM is as it has always been. A massive joke full of cheaters and degens who will sleep 3 hours a night and have a clan of bots muling for them. It is nothing and noone cares about it. I never cared about it only saw the drama and think Jagex should stop flogging the dying horse that is pvp. PvPer's want walking cash stacks they do not attack fair fight opponents.
Didn't expect to hear a song from Pokemon XD Gale of Darkness at 4:10. You just brought me back to my childhood with that banger
Yeah, I definitely felt this in Destiny 1 & 2. The first especially when the Thorn was a thorn in everyone’s backside and you literally couldn’t compete without it along with it being a grindy PvP exclusive quest too lmao
I still love PVP on a fair playing ground. But once you introduce any level of pay-for-advantage, it loses all credibility. I dont even unserstand how Gacha games have "conpetitive PVP".
All in all, great video. Subbed
Sadly have to agree. When I started playing MMOs in Ultima Online, PVP was my driving force. Same thing when I went to WoW. Yeah, I raided, but it was because I wanted the best PVP gear. And then when arenas came out, that was my focus.
Then around 2010 life happened and I stopped playing MMOs. Fast forward to Covid and WoW classic is out and I think oh yea let's relive those PVP days. Except.... it was never nearly as fun. It was already meta gamed. Everyone was way better than they used to be. No longer did I have a desire to pop into Warsong Gulch just because i had some time to kill and want to fight people, now the only reason to go in there is for the rewards.
Pretty quickly I became a PVE andy. When TBC and Cata came out, I gave cursory attempts and trying to build arena teams, but it just was never 10% as fun as it was back in the day. Now I just don't really care for it. I would love to feel that feeling again, but just the way games are instantly broken down and meta gamed makes me also doubtful it will happen again in the setting of an MMO.
Especially since, as you pointed out, there are now PURE PVP games that you can play to scratch that itch, and they are more varied than before. Back in the UO/EQ days, there was Counter-strike and that was about it. Now there's FPS', mobas, etc etc.
I think it’s possible but you need an indie dev to rethink what an mmo is supposed to look like. And mmo’s are not cheap, so it will take a while to trickle up from smaller indie titles to an actual big budget mmo
In relation to the pvp being so unoptimized in runescape back in the day, i remember when dungeoneering came out i made a killing on f2p honour deathmatches because they released an attachment to maple longbows that awarded them something like +125 accuracy, making the maple longbow the best dps in f2p pvp even when wearing full rune plate.
i actually play a runescape priavte server that has open world pvp called darklands and its actually alot of fun n balanced
Having a sensible chuckle at Idyl casually showing one of the most spoiler-ridden fights in FFXIV as he talks about general PvE
Hey mr. president. There was one game with a great PvP system - Lineage 2 (C6). Reason why you might not have known about it, cause it was more popular in Eastern Europe. Idea behind is simple, you can attack anyone, no factions, just free for all basically. You wouldn't lose any items, UNLESS you would kill someone without them hitting you back, in that case you'll end up getting "Karma" and would have a chance to drop random items from your inventory, but if he hits you back, no matter who wins, there were no penalty, well apart of losing a bit of exp.
We would fight for farming spots constantly, sometimes there would be more PvP than mob killing, purely cause there were so many people there. You can look this system up, best PvP MMo/Rpg system I've ever experienced to this day.. and yes, this game is nearly 20 years old
i actually made designs for some good new battleground minigames for osrs and rs3. like for example in rs3, have a lvl system, everyone starts at lvl 1. and you can mine recourse, smith items, make potions, while another team kills ,monsters, takes control of control points (like in dawn of war) and prepares defences. while the other side uses the items to gear up, uses the slain slayer monsters to attack these control points. if you win, you get more points, but you can't hold out for long, you cant restock in the other persons area. the moment a team is "engaged" both teams can't get new items, if the enemy team wins, this system stays, so you need to go back and forth to gather your supplies back.
the fun idea I had with this WAS the chaos, you can have everyone gather resources and just a few overpowered guys take control piints and that is fine. you can have the entire team fight with almost no resoucrs, and thats fine, you can steal them from the other team. there is no wrong way to play it, all you do is to play.
the reason why everything is lvl 1 at the start is because you do have limited weapons and specials (rs3) you need to find your way, use range to ensare and get them, or magic to be powerfull, but slow. or melee, be tanking, but your damage can only be done one on one.
and then I found out, that doing ALL OF THIS, and maintaining ALL OF THIS, is an entire game on itself, which is why for a lot of games, pvp is dying, it is just too much to make, maintain and handle. just look at osrs, they spend YEARS and it just did not work out. the concept of playing it for fun is gone because a couple of perfect players just decimate anyone trying to learn. groups of clans just go and mess your shit up before you could leanr, you need so many plugins that there is no hope for you to even try.
it took me MONTHS to learn how to kill bosses in rs3, i am lovin it. but damn, i would hate to learn it, by dying, because I did not have the right plugins, wrong stats (oeps) or a new item that just came out that takes another acount to GET, because buying it will cost you a new morgage.
a fix thou, for osrs, might be to focus on how to make it hard, for strong players to be in the field. maybe have them tagged. instead of tagging EVERYONE, as soon as you get a couple hundred kills, you get tagged, people can find you. this is resert every couple of months, call it an (event) or something.
So the conclusion you came to here is the conclusion I also came to. It's all its own thing. And that's fine! Pvp is great, but it usually deserves to be it's own game to really do it justice.
@@IdylOnTV you made great points on the pvp concept, it truly sucks that it did not work. and just like players, companies re not going to invest millions into fixing it anymore. it truly is dead, no mather how many concepts and fixes I can think of XD
I wish discord would get this video a billion views
Fine I'll just make my own massively popular chatting app i guess 🙄
More like death of PVP in established publishers, when there's surging emotions(like looking for something) + a gap in the market = someone would eventually makes them.
PVP players: "Lol git gud scrub."
Also PVP players: "OMG I'm sick of waiting in a queue! Why don't more people PVP?!?!"
I remember back in 2006 or '07, my friends would get me supplies to level up my smithing to the point where I could smith full steel, equip that with our rune scimmies and just go to town in f2p lol
Lost over 1 billion on Albion because I got transported to the mist city. When I left I was put in a wilderness I never seen and lost everything lol never played again, i was ganked by a team of 50 and had no idea what I was doing
I’m surprised so many og RuneScape players/content creators have never played Tibia. Please give it a try one day! Granted I haven’t played it in a couple of years but it was my first mmo I played back in like ‘99.
I love the idea of open world pvp in wow specifically but it's almost completely based on just who has better gear and as of late wow moves so fast you never bump into other players anymore
I'm a very casual OSRunescape player who only uses the wildy when I really need it. I appreciate that the wildy has some nice rewards at the risk of being PK'd.
Hot take: i always hated pvp xD
noob
Same, pvp is the worst. I play rpg mmo’s for the story, not the pvp. PvP is awful!
That's just a plain preference, not a take let alone a hot take. You need some assertion to turn an opinion into a take. _"X is Y"_ or _"IMO X is Y"_ etc.
Hey how did you not mention Albion online? That game has the healthiest pvp pve balance and the only mmo I play due to that balance
WTF HAPPENED TO CLAN WARS (Purple Portal) we used to have so many clans and had wars regularly….
Clan wars back in the early 10s was legendary
The clans died. I was part of that scene all the way until eoc dropped. We did like 2 fights in eoc and everyone promptly quit. I can't speak for osrs, but my understanding is that clan pvp simply never recovered from it.
Bro nothing beats being told at school to go to clan wars when we get home and a good 20/30 of my class was there on like level 20-50combat
People became to sweaty all the regular players got bored
The intro to this video is Top tier.
I think the only time I really had fun with PVP in an MMO was hunting cursed energy bots in RS3. Killing them, getting 200k worth of cursed energy, then trying to escape back to Edgeville without getting killed by someone else doing the same thing was a lot of fun - though it was more "very risky PvE" than true PVP.
there is not a single game ive ever played that was made better by having pvp in it. not runescape, not wow, and not a single fps game.
Been putting off elden ring because I want to play with my friend and not get invaded by sweats who barely even engage
Look into WvW from GW2 you fake president!
"I'm the prez of MMOs, but I have played like 3"
Not really a PvPer but was wondering when you'd talk about Arena mode in WoW at least as it's the main PvP scene and has a good amount of players, felt like it covers objections like build and being full pvp and wished you covered what else you think about it on the video, so at the end just felt like an oversight.
Using the Unpragmatic Covers version of Boulevard of Broken Dreams was a really nice and fitting touch. I find that even though losing my stuff was more consequential and rebuilding took much longer back in the old days of Runescape, I minded less because you didn't have to be full-on with PVP to get lucky sometimes, the systems of it were simpler and you didn't need to put as much time and effort in to have a fighting chance... it was also before maxing out skills was anywhere near the norm lol
omg thank you! I was trying to find the source of who did this cover!
cant wait till OSRS makes pvp optional as well.
Honestly, I would genuinely love it if OSRS had a set of servers dedicated to PvE only, no PvP in the wilderness or anywhere outside of the dedicated minigames for it. I have never liked PvP, and once I reached a point where content I wanted to do and items I wanted to get where only found out in PvP locations I kinda just lost interest in the game because I don't want to be wandering about only for some PKer to come by and completely ruin my fun. having servers sectioned off for players like me would definitely convince me to give the game another go
Can confirm that I straight up never go do any wilderness content simply because I don't want to engage in pvp. Although I think the wilderness being the wilderness is part of what makes OSRS..OSRS.
I think pvp has a place in battlegrounds and arenas in World of Warcraft. Depending on the pop and the community of certain realms wpvp can be more acceptable than what was described here about many other games.
I think the best open-world PVP MMORPGs will be sandbox niche games, and that's ok.
The private shard Ultima Online:Outlands has done it the best in my opinion, as it has an extremely robust PVE/roleplay world, but also open world FFA PVP. All towns are completely safe from PKs, and it's open world FFA PVP everywhere else. However if you attack an innocent players and get 5 kills, you become "red" and can be attacked freely by anyone without any repercussions and you can't go in cities. You also have a stacking penalty for each kill, where it becomes more and more expensive to rez if you die, and your killer gets part of that gold (nice gold sink too). You also can't commit any criminal action for a good while in the region you were in if you get killed. There's also a ton of organized PVP events, although I never participated in any of it. I just enjoy the dangerous world, even though I know i'm far from the majority.
It also has an extremely robust PVE system with incredible build depth in a classless game, but almost all of it doesn't work in PVP, so you're never really "outleveled and outgeared" in PVP, which is amazing. Although you do drop everything that's not blessed on death, you do keep the important PVE stuff (codexes, spellbooks, skill progress). Almost all the PVE power you have comes from these personal skill systems that you level up over time, so what you drop is mostly the basic consumables and loot you got so far in your run. The player crafted gear is also excellent, and although you can risk it by buying the more expensive materials, the cheaper ones are almost as good and orders of magnitude cheaper (think 10x cheaper, but maybe 5% less good). So dying and dropping stuff isn't the end of the world.
Despite all this, it's of course still an extremely niche game and it's not for everyone. But is that really a bad thing? The server has been going strong for 5 years now, and more popular than ever. Devs are absolutely amazing, the community is for the most part great and very supportive of new players, of which there's a surprising number. The second expansion is about to come out. When you have 2-3k players logged in at all times and the server has players everywhere playing in all sorts of different ways, that's all that matters to me as a player. It looks like Ashes of Creation is going for a somewhat similar system to manage PK penalties and i'm very curious to see how it'll unfold.
As for more mainstream MMORPGs, I prefer when there's just a handful of always-on FFA PVP servers where you can just go nuts in an unbalanced environment. Again it's a niche playstyle, but that's why everyone that doesnt like PVP can play on PVE servers (possibly with a PVP toggle on/off). I would have loved New World to release at least one FFA, always-on PVP server. I'd go back and start again at lvl 1 in a heartbeat if they released one. Maybe one day :)
I had an idea for open world PvP where you would get a debuff that lowers you to the level of the person you killed. Not just stats but also abilities, the debuff would also continue to lower you one level at a time until you are killed. Once killed, instead of spawning at the graveyard, you would spawn at a specific area with a vendor for rewards offering buffs consumables and also gear. I'd also say the cursed player is aggro to everyone as to avoid assistance.
how high are you?
Your take about pvprs not enjoying a free kill is dead wrong. I challenge you to go to multi in the wildly and not get curbstomped by teams that take a 3 way split on 50k loot.
One thing to remember about pking in 2007 is that things like pathing were really different from modern OSRS. I have a feeling it would take a little adjusting to go back to those servers.
Really enjoyed this video. Lots of agreements on my end. Also remember being on 1Mbps cable internet while 80% of others on dial-up doing open world full loot pvp in UO.
Always hidden advantages to be had lol
Dawg you are such an underrated youtuber. It's as if J1mmy and Josh Strife Hayes created the perfect UA-camr and named him Idyl
A baby 👶
I think the only reason I've always gravitated towards MMO's that have open world PVP, is because the extra added element of danger and the "social" aspect of making enemies/friends. That being said, my favorite MMO of all time FFXI basically had no PVP, and I didn't actually know that was a thing that people did until WoW came along. I hate first person shooters, but I love games like Chiv 2 and Mordhau which is where I believe "MMO type PVP" thrives.
PvP needs to be presented in a specific manor and most just sling it in there all willy nilly :) Also PvP needs to be molded for the actual gameplay loop which no studio till now does. In the lands of PENANCE PvP is presented in a multitude of ways. You will chose your style and level of PvP from the minute to minute interlock systems to out right stabbing someone in the face. Much love from the PENANCE team!
Risk vs Reward is s super overrated incentive system that everyone seems to think they want. People are way more risk adverse, they will remember the losses way harder than the potential rewards. Risk vs Reward does not create a healthy PvP environment.
Heathy PvP🤣 that's exactly why every modern MMO boring af
@@CouchWarrior561 nice post, believe or not runescape is the most dangerous pvp type game, its one of the few games where if you kill someone you get the majority of their stuff. Healthy pvp to these folks is pvp where you don't risk anything at all and just fight. Folks think osrs pvp is dangerous in multi/single zone, in RUNESCAPE classics it was multi everywhere and protection prayers only worked if a person ranged you.
Thats what makes runescape pvp exciting you can die or kill other for loot.
But what you have is folks want to go in a pvp environment in a game, and then have the pkers leave them alone so they can get cool gear/loot or kill bosses. This how games dies when companies lisent to these types of players, they ruin their game, then these players flood other games almost like a virus. Mind you its peoples opinion and they have a right to voice the changes they want to game. But in most cases their not practical or care about the health of said game.
And i quote-
@Kngofkngs
6 months ago
LMS is great PvP in OSRS.
It’s nice being able to participate in PvP without the risk of losing my shit.
PvP in its current state should be limited to PvP worlds only. Forcing PvPers to play against PvPers instead of preying on players just after the cool items the Wildy has to offer.
It took 27 minutes, but you did finally make the same argument I always do about osrs pvp. I've played since 2004, and the pking issue has and always will be power creep. People are definitely better at it now, but that would be entirely irrelevant if we were in a 2005 metagame where the only real way to stack somebody out in a single game tick was with a gmaul combo. It's truly in 2006 with 1h crossbows, void, dbow, lunars, and rfd gloves that things began to get out of hand. These things were all massive spikes in player power, and the power creep just kept snowballing from there with gwd(specifically ags) the next year. But hey, I'm just an out of touch runescape boomer. Clearly.
Idyl i gotta give it to you, i respect you so much for putting up a video of you when you are sick, next level standards!
your Intros keep getting better and better mr president
Osrs PvP accessibility; start a decade and a half ago. 😂
“It’s so ugly! Why did you do this Jagex?!”. The desperation and sincerity in that hit me deep in my soul. I agree. As much as you can possibly agree. 😂
Open world PVP is mostly fixed by Private servers(with high rates) being able to max out quicker than your average game. If one of the gatekeepers was being high level and gear, your average private servers resolves that
Well now you have just removed most of the pve content in the game by skipping leveling.
@@tottorookokkoroo5318 That's only subjective, everyone's not you and everyone's not the same. You can still explore low level maps.
@@MangaGamified Sure but "exploring" them is completely different than playing through them. And nothing i said was subjective.
@@tottorookokkoroo5318 Friend what game shot you up to the highest level instantly? basic private servers has multiplied XP gain for starters, so I technically played through them. Even private servers cared for longevity.
What private servers did u play? You're starting to sound sus knowing very little if not none about private servers. What PS did you ever played?
@@MangaGamified Dude i have played tons of different mmos and even with regular xp rate you often have to skip leveling zones. If you increase the exp by 2x or 5x or 10x obviously you can do just a fraction of the zones before you are overleveled. This is just such a basic thing you would understand even if you have never played an mmo.
Sure you can do level scaling of the content but that sucks.
This idea of just rushing into end game to play the "real" game is ruining mmos, most of the game and fun is typically in the leveling process so speeding it up is just not a good idea.
For me the primary deterrent to getting into PVP is the knowledge that once I step off that cliff, I'm going to lose thousands of hours of grinding my personal skill on top of needing to grind for the best gear for whichever form of PVP I am engaging in.
I suffer delusions that I could probably do pretty well at PVP if I'm willing to pull the 500 plus hour learning curve time investment, but I just can't pull the trigger on a time investment like that willingly. I find specifically old school PvP enticing, but not enough to set foot in the wilderness against demons like Dino or the other content creators i watch. The sheer volume of precision clicking and decision making going on is something that is paralyzingly overwhelming
The only RuneScape PVP I remember enjoying was my free to play range/r2h pures from 2006-2007, now THAT is a skill level I could understand then and now XD
Great video as always, Idyl
I do a bit of on and off osrs pvp. Most people are nowhere near that level of play/I have yet to run into a single curb stomp fight. A lot of people can't even manage a simple pvp prayer swap. The skill level most people operate at is very modest.
For gear - this is where budgeting comes in. PvP with full drops usually means never running around in the best gear, but instead using the most economic gear where losing it won't really hurt that much as it can be easily replaced. In such a way, you never risk your thousands of hours (tis would be madness!) Only what ya feel comfortable in using, that lets you get away with the level of nonsense needed. And if you die - you just shrug, replace it, and carry on. PvP is basically a game of risk evaluation, where one needs to know they aren't that good and thus ought to not risk anything unless they don't feel anything for losing the stuff in question. It's basically ya win some, ya lose some.
But I am curious. If you can indulge me, and ignoring anything, I said: What is your feel based guesstimate for the common skill level of pvp'ers? Do you feel like all of them are amazing and great? Does the threat of running into an absolute juggernaut feel more intimidating on its own, than probably dealing with 9/10 times pretty simple stuff? And talking win rates....what do you suspect the common win rate of encounters of your typical average tier pvp player to be?
@@videocrowsnest5251 I am happy to explain myself a little further. I don't actually think that those time commitments I stated or grinding for the best gear are hard requirements of getting into any level of PVP by any stretch. Rereading what I said it's easy to see how it came across that way though. I just am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to games requiring personal skill, and I know that if I start to PVP I will never be happy with myself until I am performing at a very high level, which is where the hundreds or thousands of hours that I threw around would come out.
I don't really know why I brought up gear because I know it's just a balancing act of risk vs reward. Most people who aren't the ultra sweats are not risking more than a few million GP at most, and many people risk significantly less than that especially while learning.
I don't think the average PKer is even close to that skill level either, of course. By definition If you're fighting equally skilled and geared players you would win only 50% of the time, so I imagine the average win rate for an average PKer is actually below 50% because they will not always be fighting a fair fight against an equal opponent, sometimes their opponent will significantly outgear them or outskill them. This whole conversation is ignoring the fact that massive clans will just dogpile people that they can push into multi or catch unaware, small team passing people off or clan pking is a whole different thing that I would be frustrated with lol. Even just for 1v1s, the outliers at the top end of the skill spectrum are going to have wildly inflated success rates which push the average down.
The problem I have is a personal one, because I would only feel like I was succeeding if I could push myself into that higher skill bracket. I would be extremely frustrated even with a 50% success rate, because all I would see are the mistakes that I make. So for me, my PVP journey would either be forever frustrating, or consume a huge amount of my time until I'm playing at a very high level.
The idea of running into one of those juggernauts isn't really even that scary honestly because there's no way I'd be risking the amounts that they are. To try to put up a good fight against a dino or eliop or something would be more of an honor than anything else, as long as I don't just get completely steamrolled which could obviously happen lol.
It kind of boils down to, "I don't know if I want to open that box because I don't know if I have the time to see it through in a satisfactory way"
Wow classic pvp was so good and its never been the same ever since. No other mmo could match it. It had a perfect combo of open world, battle grounds, a grindy ranking system, and most importantly ZERO SWEATY HYPER META ARENAS WITH HUGE BARRIER TO ENTRY.
2003 to 2007 runescape pking scene.
I was there. Anti rushing claws, pking 100m godswords. Owning the high lvls who think they're better.
Taste vengeance!
There was no d claws in 2007 your fake news
I feel like with PVP you can't have rewards that make you stronger over time or it's no longer about skill. Pretty much every successful PVP game starts everyone out in a match with access to the same things. Which is like the opposite of being high level in an MMORPG
I literally just skipped this entire video to the end because I wanted to hear Idyl's patreon song.
Of all the idyl videos out there this is one of them
I love game design. I love your videos. I also love permanent deadman mode and played it for over two years and have a max cape there and shared this video with all my DMM friends. You’re absolutely right it’s completely dead, but I really enjoy the thrill of the hunt. :) And I don’t mean the thrill of hunting - I’m dogshit at PvP. I meant the thrill of being hunted. Trying to outsmart the incredibly talented and organized PvPers out there by utilizing dead content and other clever strategies. And eventually I found other people there who really enjoyed focusing on skilling and quests and minigames and collection logs! I made a lot of good friends there. :)
I mean. I set down osrs indefinitely a few weeks ago. But it still warms my heart to see people talk about permanent dmm even if you only have negative things to say and they’re basically all true XD
Whenever someone talks about how great open world PvP is, I think of the first week of the PvP system implemented in WoW Classic. Just full armies camping flight points. And full armies randomly murdering every individual they see. Super fun. Top tier gaming. Peak skill. Stuff we'll be talking about as peak gaming in 20 years.
If I want PvP I load up Mordhau, Elden Ring, any one of a massive list of fighting games. The Wildy is just stressful, especially as I play an Ironman. The risk is huge, the reward is middling, and no amount of rskill can make my account benefit from getting jumped.
I was not prepared to see idyl without a hat
That last bit in the video to keep people watching your patreon followers list was genius IMO. I never watch those lists, but since its funny I decided to stay!
The MMO with the healthiest relation with PvP is GW2 (I love the game but even if I didn't I would say it). You can get PvE rewards from playing both sPvP and WvW. sPvP gear is also completely equalized and pretty easy to find casual matches. WvW uses your own gear but its not hard to get a good build going..
"because I DO hate school" - Idyl in a video sponsored by a school.
I played Mortal Online quite a bit and I disagree about there being no progression because as you mentioned other aspects being player driven the same applies to your own progression , whether its starting out and learning all the lore, starts a profession and becoming proficient at it, or getting better at the combat system itself that is all progression
Once you learn those systems the reward of being able to be self sufficient makes a huge difference. In a game like mortal the solo experience is not for the feint of heart but that doesnt mean you should be an outright loner. The amount of solo players who have also befriend others that essentially help one another are how they have found a way to get through the world and thrive.
I think the best way to experience mortal is with a small group of friends or players because what most people dont understand and from my own experience 5-10 players can easily take on outnumber fights and be very proficient at it, the reason why you dont see it as often is because it relys on players fulfilling certain roles in a fight that some players just dont want to outright do at all and they rather just outnumber and "zerg" groups down with lackluster skill involved. Some might not like it but a good player with more skill in mortal can "outplay" you with little to no gear to some degree and I think thats also one of the beauties of the game.
The game has a lot of politics that you doesn't necessarily have to learn but you should at least be aware of what guilds frequent certain areas of the map and either befriend them to your benefit or prepare yourself to fight them regularly while occupying their area.
My favorite thing is groups of friends bullying low-level/weaker players and wondering why nobody else is playing their hardcore game.
@@NerevarineKing it’s not forgiving that’s for sure
as a wow player i only really do pvp for the cosmetics and bonus rewards you get from world quests when in war mode, but it's extremely funny as a blood death knight. sorry my health bar is so big and succulent.
As a pretty casual gamer - I like pvp. I think it should be in every game, if possible. There are ways to irk out a lead in any competition and balancing is truly impossible, but video games make it a safe space to experiment. And when you win, it feels great. If losing feels terrible, you're playing the game wrong. Good video, I liked your closing argument even though I kind of disagree with it.
I started in tbc, but it wasnt my main game until late 2010, and i have only taken two breaks, the end of cata and the middle of wod
i would drop the game if they removed/abandoned pvp.
edit: valid af