The Case Against Aerobic Base with Dave Salo
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Dave Salo with a physiology lesson.
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#swimming #worldaquatics #sprinting
What many people in the comment sections like this fail to understand is that you can achieve success in more than one way. Usually even more than two or three different ways. Your goal as a coach is to find the one that is enjoyable enough to your athletes.
video starts at 2:48
My income starts at 00:00
@@InsidewithBrettHawke hit to stock market lets go
@@InsidewithBrettHawke look at your video stats, if your viewers are turning away before they even watch your content you are losing your income. 1 or 2 ads is more than enough, space them out, or even rotate different partners in different videos
This set plus Mcevoys resistance philosophy. Amazing. Brett you are changing swimming. For the better. ❤
I think swimmers could learn alot from track athletes. Most data on aerobic capacity, anaerobic threshold, vo2 max etc. comes from runners. Swimmers need to start to mimic track workouts by time.
the new asu coach credits a lot of his sprint knowledge from work he did with track research
Very nicely done... a bit oversimplified at times but that is NOT a criticism! He's dead on with the basic understanding and the training that goes with it... Teaching/training the body to clear lactate is key... but, as he clearly says, it is also a matter of training the remaining bodily systems... again, well done!
Awesome video! This will be used to help both my sprinting and longer distance training!
This is a horrible gross generalisation. Firstly when you are at race pace you don't recruit all muscle fibres, the central governor process matches force requirement about of fibres requirement. Even at max swim speeds over 20 15 m you don't recruit any more than 60-65% of total fibres. Next acidosis is caused by CO2 not by lactate or lactic acid. Lactate is a store if potential energy that can't be processed through from pyruvate. Hydrogen ion increase can cause a change in cellular pH that blocks the cell gateways to eliminate h ions but it's the build up of ammonia that causes the cell shutdown not acidosis per se. Yes glycolysis works independent of oxygen and is a precursor of glucose/glycogen/glycerol breakdown for further processing within the mitochondria, if conditions are accommodating. Cell recriutment is dependent on calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum, when under extreme conditions the calcium isn't retaken up fast enough causing cell tetanus, you can't move it... Heavy feeling, in this situation the mitochondria role changes to becoming a calcium pump to try to retain some cell contract ability... O2 usage drops... O2 usage actually reduces from the anaerobic threshold and upward from that intensity... It doesn't increase. And finally the research he refers to was actually 1985 by Dudley and terjung, was one of a series of papers and they mostly used mice, some experiments used humans. Mice physiology is similar to human but not the same, so caution is needed when using such results is always made clear. The paper also said that fast twitch only recruited when work load is above 116% of mvo2 so at approx 100 pace, so yes some race pace will recriut ftw if it's based on 100 or 50 speed. 200 won't. Too many reps won't... so if your going to say science based, don't bastardise it be clear and accurate so those that don't read papers or posts like this correctly have less chance of messing up another generation of swimmers with poor execution of principles. Also macovoys concept of weights is nothing new I have known of that for over 25years, . Infact it was part of the program that took Zoe baker to world records in 50 breast. I have a high regard for david salo, this doesnt do him any good service
Finally someone with understanding. There was quite many generalizations in the video.
This was a brilliant explaination!
Our understanding of how we utilise the ATP energy currency is still changing today. A glycolytic fibre can behave as aerobic if needs to.
I was at this pool for USMS nationals in April! Cool video.
Greatest coach I’ve ever swam for
I remember back in the day we used to come to UA-cam to get away from commercials on traditional tv…nearly 25% of this entire video was advertising. Everyone has to make a dollar I guess but dang
This is pure gold❤
Awesome. Thanks.
Most coaches do not understand this stuff due to their predominantly anecdotal education
most coaches don't have PhDs, correct.
@@iizzcoolself education is the key, we are all standing on somebody else's shoulders. Swimming Faster by Maglischo provides the best coverage of these biological and physiological aspects, IMHO. Highly recommended.
@@iizzcoolyou don’t need a PhD to understand basic physiology: that’s a cop-out.
Thats why you trust people with exercise science degrees and not weekend certification like asca cert bs 😂
Thanks
Question I have is if the lactate production adaptation process (as example: all out LCM 50’s off block on 3;00), is it selective to only the recruited fibers, capillaries, and local pathways, or is it a systemic metabolic process throughout entire system, or a combination?
The answer would determine usefulness for certain dryland efforts
That is a great question. The response itself is specific to the demands of the activity. If you were to conduct a dryland activity that has similar demands to that of a swim set, you would get a similar metabolic response as it is placing similar demands on the body. The difference would be that skill acquisition and neural components are different for dryland activities and swimming. This is why dryland activities are good for general physical preparation. Since they are non specific to swimming the adaptation does not apply 100%. This is the principle of specificity. The closer an exercise is the the demands of the sport or event the greater adaptation applies.
Which serious athlete doesn’t know this? 🙄 Of course sprint training increases performance. Legitimate training programs target all components of the body’s physiology responsible for increasing performance, and that’s certainly not just sprint training all the time. Good coaches understand that every athlete has a different physiology, there is no cookie cutter approach, so each component needs to be targeted with different intensity and duration at different times during a season depending on when the athlete needs to peak for races, etc. Figuring out what physical program is best for each individual athlete is the real value experienced coaches provide. Then there’s also the mental component…..
So Mate.
So it’s better to do say,
20 x 100s either SCM or LCM on 3:00
1 fast,1 easy to activate the 100 muscle fibres ??
Or do 2 easy ?
So set will be 1/2 to 20 ?
Your thoughts Brett please?
🙏🤦♂️😂
Quality not quantity. Specific to your event. For example 6x[100IM + 2x25 1x kick 1x swim max] Decending pace 1-3 then 4-6 on1:35 IM/35 Kick. Killer race specific set.
@@trn8061 thank you for replying.
I’m 56 with osteoarthritis in my right knee.
My breastroke career is over lol.
I predominantly swim LCM
But I get what you’re exactly explaining to me.
Thank you.
Have a great Thursday 😀
@@andrewthomas8737my pleasure! get some high quality organic curcumin buggered with black pepper. Try Nutra Nourished. It will help your arthritis.
I call it bs. To have aerobic capacity you need anaerobic first? You need big base so you can have better anaerobic. Its like saying focus on vo2 max if you want to build aerobic capacity without big base. There’s way to skin the cat.
Dont think about this too much without blood lactate analyser. Just go with rpe.
@@PhiyackYuh some names Dave Salo has coached for you to ponder... Amanda Beard, Aaron Peirsol, Jason Lezak, Lenny Krazelburg, Rebecca Soni and Katinka Hosszu. Are you going to call thier performances BS too? Who have you coached with this caliber of performance? RPE is very basic. Dave is master of his craft. I really think that you would gain more from listening closer to his message instead of shooting it down to try and bolster your own ego.
Mr. Seluyanov's sportadaptology russian PhD must be studied
🤯 Most of you who counter Salo's approach project OPINION...which means nothing to someone like Salo who's educated in scientific training methodology.
So all of you: post AGAIN with data from the literature supporting your opinion .
GOHead: WhatChu got supporting big yardage training as superior to enhancing 5-15 minute athletic performances vs High intensity Race pace training ❓
What's your take, Brett?
You know my take. Look at the WR in the 50 free
@@InsidewithBrettHawkeso you like the yards
OBLA at 13:20
Is he back at USC or didn’t he leave for a bit?
let's got to the chalk board... goes to a whiteboard 😂
How many of Salo’s swimmers have been busted for doping?
Wait, if I don't do a ton of base training... I won't be in shape to do all the long hard aerobic sets in practice that coach thinks will make me a better sprinter. 😂
So basically usrpt
No
How’s Dave doin as a coach in NcAAs lol
I think he's just making it up 🤣
Salo may be right on the muscle fibers but he cannot produce the proper methabolic changes in athletes by only focusing on Sprint training.
where imo he gets it wrong is on the low intensity side of the chart . At low intensity you get the 100 fibers not 10-10-10 but depending on the Oxygen intake they develop differently than at race pace effort. In swimming as in other sports there is no pure alactic event whatsoever. Once you understand that you will get back to the basics.
I assume this guy is only coaching sprinting or his philosophy is fundamentally wrong. Any events lasting more than 1 minute require a combination of aerobic conditioning and speed work (interval training). Endless interval training without aerobic conditioning will lead to sickness, injury and performance plateaus. The way you train aerobic conditioning is by incorporating huge mileage at low intensity. Not by high intensity. The reason people don’t do this is that it takes dedication and long hours. The famous excuse people use is to dismiss this training as “junk miles”, but nothing could be further from the truth. A combination of the highest sustainable volume at low intensity with low volume at very high intensity will always be the formula for maximising potential.
“This guy” coached the Olympic champion in the 10km
@@InsidewithBrettHawke G'day Brett, 57 year old Aussie here and a massive fan of yours, Klimmy, Keiren, Huegill and others. Have you seen Chris Fydler has been smashing Aussie and even world records in Masters? I'm following your channel (and as a physicist am inspired by Cam McEvoy's words) in a quest to start in Masters again but thank Christ I'm not in Fydler's age group, or yours! 🤣
what's race pace for 10K?@@InsidewithBrettHawke
It's not about training at that lower intensity on his drawing. Hell on his drawing that would be warm up and warm down intensity.
It's about no, whether you're a swimmer or a runner or a cyclist you don't need to be doing all of your work at or near the highest intensity/ HR.
Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing that nonsense pushed.
That everybody else all over the world in various sports with exceptional results is doing it wrong and I and this PhD or whoever else are the enlightened ones and see the light!
Tell that to Merchant, 200 strokers, even 200frees... even to people trying to finish the 100 strong at a high level.
Ya know what. Just swim more at a 100 percent intensity! Ignore "traditional" things! "Red isn't a important!
Yawn. Go kick rocks. I don't want to hear it.
PS. I know a world champion swimmer quite well, a long with the coach. Yes said swimmer worked extremely hard. Did plenty of race pace and above race pace work.
But if said swimmer skipped or slacked on the "traditional " stuff the zone from 150HR up..... said swimmer would get destroyed on the back half of the race.
But all that swimmers experiences at that level and all the other thousands of elite athletes and coaches and programs all got it wrong!
I don't completely disagree with your premise but we have to be nuanced in our discussion.
When it comes to discussing the we train we have to take into context the events we are focusing on. When it comes to sprint events the main factors in determining performance are max speed and the percentage of max speed you are able maintain over a give distance.
The theories Dr Salo is discussing here are incredibly important when it comes to sprint events but those are still applicable to longer events as well.
The longer events predictors of performance tend to be maximum oxygen consumption (VO2) and the percentage of VO2 you can maintain over a certain distance.
When looking at these indicators we have to determine how to improve them. VO2 is tightly linked to genetics but can moderately influenced by training. The other is indicator can be improved is a few different ways. One becoming more efficient. The more efficient you are the less energy is required to move a given distance. Another being the bodies ability to use glucose and the by products of Anaerobic metabolism as sources of energy, and to maintain blood pH.
That is exactly what Dr Salo is stating in the video. In order to pressure the body to become better at producing you have to actually get the body to produce lactate and acid by training at a high enough intensity for a given period of time.
Since the bodies metabolic response is both a function of intensity and time we have to adjust both variables based on the event of focus. We also have to take into account the mechanics for the events as well since the physics of the stroke changes slightly as the distance increases.
For the longer events we have to lengthen the reps and decrease the intensity to become more specific to the demands of the event from a metabolic and neural level.
The concepts around the training don't change but the implementation does change based on event. This is why we should not train distance and sprint swimmers in the same manner.
I hope this makes sense and sorry for the long response
@@swimforceliteDefine sprint.
100 Free? 100 strokes Long course?
Again I'm NOT saying "race pace" or high intensity isn't valuable and is EXTREMELY important. It is.
I'm saying good luck actually being able to swim said events well. Or to your fullest potential just doing all your "work" at that intensity level.
50 freestyle on the other hand, that's a different monster.
But even at the NCAA level. Swimming it prelim and finals.. in the relays etc.
Maybe having some of your quality work at "Red" or whatever your next one above that is isn't the worst thing the world either. But I won't argue against not really spending time training there either for a 50 swimmer.
But even a 100 sprinter at NCAA. ALL Strokes the uhderwaters are super important. And that's a understatement. Being able to do what today's athletes are doing UW while not impossible, IMHO I think that would be much harder to accomplish with basically all your workouts at that "higher intensity"
It's not like "red" or those other HRs are "easy" or soft. They're just not as high as Dave was talking about if I understood properly.
Also. Think about Dave and his position. He's recruiting and getting swimmers at age 18 who are already pretty damn good and did who knows what type of training to get to that point.
Not taking a so so HS swimmer and just tossing them into the water and doing that high intensity and having their body take like 30 minutes plus to recover from a set.
Most USA clubs right now have been in the water a week or two or haven't started yet for the fall winter. How's a best average set going to go for most of them without some time doing "traditional" build up ....
@@albundy06 In general we can define sprinting as maximal efforts lasting up 90 sec. This though is largely dependent on the ability of the athlete. A more experienced athlete will be able to extend closer to that top end.
So if my mind I include 100 and less as a sprint event.
Within this context there is not a high degree of specificity from a neurological or physiological level for these events. So they do not demand a high percentage of your training to be low aerobic or threshold.
Since swimming is not inherently a natural motion for swimming skill acquisition is much slower so more time is needed to develop the skill. This is a decent argument for including some slower volume.
This is especially evident for younger swimmers. The main reasons younger swimmers get better at swimming is because they become more efficient at the skill So they apply more force and reduce drag. Swimmers before puberty do not adapt to swimming from a physiological level in the same way older swimmers do because they do not produce hormones at same levels.
The focus for younger swimmers should be on skill acquisition and gradually introduce more volume and intensity over time until you can focus in on specific events.
When you include looking at NCAAs you are now changing the demands of the event so that requires a different discussion.
You have to perform at a high level several times in a day over several days. They way you recover from high levels of intensity is by introducing that intensity into your training in the context of the demands of the meet. The aerobic system will help in recovery by resting between bouts since your metabolism just does not shut off after exercise. So in order to force the body to adapt to that intensity you actually have to swim at that intensity.
In conclusion all training has its place in a well designed program we have to get the distribution correct based on the neurological and physiological demands of the events. We have to move away from the dogma of high volume and high intensity it's about the demands of the event and specificity